 So good morning, everyone. It's Monday morning, June 6. If I've got the date right, I'm pretty sure it's Monday morning in any case. And I want to welcome everyone right and early. I want to first go around the room to make sure everyone can see and be heard be be heard. And I'm just going to do it in the order I see the pictures on the screen Paul. Present. Mike. I caught you with with your mouth. Sorry, breakfast time. Ben. Present. Jonathan. Good morning. Great. Okay, Sean. Yeah. Phoebe. Here. Rupert. I'm here. Angelica. Here. Simone. Yes. And Alicia. Here. So I think. I think we're only missing Allison. Is that correct? If I'm looking around the screen and Tammy and Tammy. Yeah, we're missing Tammy also. I don't see Tammy. Let me just double check participants that they didn't come in. No, I don't see them. Should I wait a few, what do you think? Should I wait a few more minutes? Margaret can describe, she's, Margaret's going to facilitate. You can pull up the agenda Margaret. If, if you want to, it's a pretty straightforward what this is a discussion that we're having until 10 today. Okay. Can everybody see that? Yes. Well, I can anyway. Yes. Okay. So let me just to recap where we are. So. As Kathy mentioned them, the main event today is to have a discussion. There's no presentation by the design team, although they're here to answer any questions. I'm just going to, I'll come back to how I would suggest we approach it, but I would definitely say we're on our way to narrowing the choices and focusing on the priorities. We have a couple of other events going on this week. So probably most important on Thursday, there is a community forum where the community will get an introduction to the materials we've looked at that the last couple, in the last couple of days, as well as the project costs and Donna, I think we're all set up to actually get some input on priorities, correct. And then we have a meeting June 13th, which is a Monday week from today. At which point, if we haven't gotten there today, we really need to decide finally on the preferred option. And then we have a meeting on June 24th, which is a week from Friday, at which you all would be taking a vote to submit the preferred schematic report. So a lot going on, but then a break in the action. So, Kathy, do you want to add anything before we move on to the discussion? No, I think, no, I don't think so. I'm just just a underscore what Margaret said about today. I thought, now that we are all working with the matrix or trying to work with the matrix. It could be potentially narrowing some of the options, but also identifying which of these criterias are the most important to us Jonathan let off with some of that we did last time so it's more important if they're more important it means whether they're highly favorable or less favorable matters more is the way I think about it, although all the criteria matter. I think as we go through them we're not trying to get to the final option choice but if there are some we would like to eliminate today that will make next Monday's discussion easier, you know, will be minutes more focused. And I'm seating the role of chair to Margaret, who becomes facilitator rather than chair so I can I can be one of all of us rather than having to watch for hands so she'll watch for hands and she'll orchestrate the meeting. And I am hoping, you know, we did double check the timing of this with everyone, because I still don't see either Allison or Tammy here. So maybe we can mark, I'm turning it over to you and so why don't we start and and to as much as possible get everyone talking. So I'm going to pull up the matrix that I sent out with a couple of final updates yesterday afternoon. So let me do that and then let's get started here with a conversation. So that looks like it. Okay, can everybody see that. As I mentioned at the beginning Kathy and I did, you know, quite a bit of work trying to make this tighter. And the first, I would ask a question and then talk about a couple ways we could approach this so one question was did anybody have any comments on the matrix before we get started, in terms of things that should be eliminated that were added to it, or items that should be prioritized, you know, just as a reminder. And it may be a little difficult to see on the screen but there were a handful of items that I've highlighted in sort of a light purple on here that had been identified as priority so project cost is clearly one of them. So optimizing teaching and learning impact during construction, optimizing energy efficiency and under sight and minimizing building footprint and providing flexibility for expansion. Now the overall categories we have our building and site facts which we're not actually going to rank there there for reference. Construction cost is a category, equity and transition is a category, right. Educational is a credit category, building is a category, site is a category, and at the bottom, last but not least is community. So, before we launch any comments about things we should add back or eliminate before we get started. Hey Allison, going once going twice I'm not seeing any hands. Okay, so how about any priorities any other priorities people want to add. Okay, I'm going to get more good there a couple hands up. Okay, see Rupert Rupert. A couple of quick comments. There's two categories F I think community should be G. Yep, you're right. And then I have some more sort of involved comments. In terms of site. When I reviewed the site transportation and safety. Previously I was looking at our April phase concept one three story where Wildwood had a football shaped a lot. But my recollection from the facing diagrams from the last meeting. It looks like we've managed to get a separated drop off and pick up at Wildwood I'm still trying to find that in the archives but I'm thinking that we won't see that much difference in terms of pick up and drop off separation between the two buildings with that revised drawn. And that's a question is that did I read something wrong here. So your question is about the design options as it relates to pick up and drop off. Yes, and I, it my recollection from the phasing diagrams is that the Wildwood pick up and drop off change from the original from the concept drawing before. So, let me, since I have the ability to share let me see if I can pull up that drawing quickly just give me a second. I think the question is that the onsite it looks like the circulation has is is on both sides it works is what Rupert's asking. Right, I'm looking at the very last slide page 14 of the, of the phasing diagrams, and it shows separate circles for two different separated drop offs. So I don't see that that's really that much difference between the two sites anymore but maybe other people have different opinions that. Yeah, well, well Margaret you're going to pull it up right. Yeah, I am. I think and Tim come jump chime into Rupert by I think the difference is the queuing length and being able to get the cars and the buses off the road or driveway, I guess. But but you know pictures say a thousand words so maybe we can take a look at that coming up. This took a little bit to open. Here we go. Okay. So which one did you want to look at Rupert. Wildwood. The very last page. It's going to take a second to open. So here's Wildwood phase one. You can go to the final page. Three. I think that is correct in that the site diagrams have developed to the point that we have separated car and bus drop off so between the two sites, there are separate circulation paths. So that's the bus drop off. And this is the car. Right so that being the case. My suggestion is in the site category that we take safety and efficiency of vehicle circulation and that would include pedestrian arriving and leaving vehicles arriving and leaving. And then the next category potential to mitigate traffic on and off site would be more of the adjacent traffic passing passing site description. Robert in a nutshell you're talking about eliminating this item three that I have highlighted I'm going to blow this up. I'm not. I'm suggesting that the criteria explanation incorporate items one and two from the next category. So there's only one item. No. And that would include what I'm trying to say is see where your mouse is now it says some pedestrians arriving and leaving site vehicles arriving leaving site. That would be incorporated into optimize the safety and efficiency of vehicle circulation. And then category for potential to mitigate traffic. I think it makes more sense to have potential mitigate traffic in the neighborhood of the site. Because that's what I think traffic passing is really about is neighborhood. And how people feel about those changes but Well I'll react. I, that's the way I was interpreting them so I think you're you're changing the definition help the wording helps. Do you want to just also perhaps remove their where it says potential to mitigate traffic on and off site just off site yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. Okay. So, Margaret, I, you asked on other things that I would shade. And it's from the discussion in terms of shading for a priority priority. Yeah, go down to the very bottom one the outdoor space for community use for after school outdoor space was listed as a priority. We've got it in more than once here but one that to me, I thought we heard was a priority of the various criteria. Yep. That was that's the only reason my hand was up. I agree with that. Okay. So I don't see any. Sean's hand is, can you see the shade, the little yellow hand goes up in the corner. Oh, yeah, I see it now. Sean you want to go. So this might probably should have mentioned earlier but under the cost section. I don't know if it makes sense to include like ongoing operating costs as a criteria, I think it only varies really between the, the add Renault options versus the, the new construction. But my understanding is if we do add Renault. I don't think the whole building will be net zero right so there would be some continued costs for the other portion of the building. No, no, no. We're designing it for any of the options to be net. So even the in the end right now that the, the existing building will still be net zero. Okay. Yep, we'll be providing enough PV onsite to support net zero for the entire building. Okay so the heating systems would be theoretically pulled out that. Yeah, totally got it. It's totally got it. I think Rupert would kill us if he had to maintain different systems. And Rupert's hand is still up. Is that from before. No, I just wanted to give other people a chance but I have another, another one. Okay. In equity and transition, see where you're highlighted right now. Okay. Accessibility walking sounds like a yes no question. And so I would change that to accessibility by walking, which is then sounds more like we're comparing things. And in terms of access to public transit, I think. We should expand that. Beyond frequency of PVT service to. I don't know, something broader like breadth of coverage of the town by bus route or something like that. So. How's that. Something like that I think because I did a bunch of. I spent a lot of time on, on the PVT is website trying to figure what routes go where. And it seems like there is some differentiation between the building so I think it might be with the value. Okay. Other thoughts. Phoebe and Paul both have their hand up. Okay. So I, especially in light of our conversation on Friday. I'm, I was having a little bit of trouble with D for minimizes teaching slash learning impacts during construction. That's not the part I had trouble with what I had trouble with was includes duration and access to outdoor space during construction. I think that there needs to be a little bit more clarity here and possible some separation of those things. I think that duration is not well spelled out in there and I think because there is such a difference we may want to rethink how that goes in there. I think whether it gets its own category or there's some other way to describe that or somewhere else to put that because I think it could be an educational issue but I think it's also a. It could be a site or cost or whatever. But I think we have to really duration. In other words contractors offsite date kind of thing needs to needs to be a little bit more clear, because there is such a big difference. I also think within that same thing that access to outdoor space doesn't necessarily equal. Like disruption, I think those are kind of also separate things I think disruption is quite a bit more than just access to outdoor space. And I don't know, I think it's disruption all the way across the board so getting on to an off the site and everything else I don't know. I don't really have a great suggestion about where to put things, but I think we're trying to pack a lot into that that are kind of separate separate issues if that makes sense. I don't know if anybody else has any ideas on that. I'm listening to you if we just split it to set a minimizes duration as one, and then minimizes construction impact on teaching and learning as as a separate just make them distinct so. Yeah, I mean, I think that I think that works. Because then you've got one is the longer it is. Yes, we'd rather have it shorter, and then the impact is everything. Well it's going on. Yeah. So you could. Okay. Yeah, I think that works. Thank you. So, Margaret I wanted to minimize this duration, just a simple one. Yeah. I just so I can understand so the impacts on teaching and learning are impacts not related to duration. Right, the intention. Yeah but you need the word construction impact here. We saw a site variation so probably could this one could even go on site. So, because during the construction that. So, see how it says access to outdoor space that can you got it. Take the. Yes. Okay, and then you can just leave minimize duration and what doesn't need a definition then does that work Phoebe. I mean it's just one is how long is it taking and the other is while it's happening. How disruptive is. Yeah, yeah. And I think Kathy if you wanted to put an explanation I think it has to for minimizes duration I think it's literally how long is construction going on how long are people going to be on site. Yeah, so, you know, so it's not we can just say number of number, we can say number of months, you know, whatever right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, I'll stop Paul's hand is up. So I have two questions if you can go down to F2 Margaret. Yep. I guess one question is so we have that listed as a priority, which I wonder for truly is, and then secondly, designing this is maybe for Donna to have potential expansion spaces sort of plotted out and, or is this just sort of a nice to have type thing. So, Paul, I'm glad you brought this up because Jonathan, I think this one was you had noted this as a priority. But I feel like I also heard from Mike at some point that there was a higher expansion of the elementary school population that might not happen here. Mike, am I remembering that correctly. Sorry about that. I didn't realize my seven connectivity problems with the result but I didn't have it back on. Did you hear my question you want me to repeat it. I think what you were saying is if there's future expansion that it wouldn't necessarily with another solution be would have to be found or you say one more time. It might not be at the site right. It could be right it could be a crocker. I mean, you know I will say and I'll let Donna speak. The MSBA process does require us to for the designers to demonstrate how they would expand the building if they were going to. But I think based on the context and from what I remember hearing from Mike that might not be where you would go first. Right. So Donna, do you or Tim want to add anything to that. Well, so we haven't gotten into the question. I know that would actually play out. I think we could safely say that we have designed the cafeteria larger due to wanting to use it as assembly space as well and that's what's important to MSBA is to make sure that some of the structures are already been designed to accommodate any growth that that could be, you know, increasing class size which I know is not desirable but we will be taking a look to see where we could expand on both sites. I think it's they're both challenging right we have we have the wetlands on one site and then the physical site constraints on Wildwood so I think both would be a challenge equally challenging. But we can dot in a line or two what will you probably end up getting and what we've been able to share in the past is, you know, maybe a Bay of classrooms going off towards towards the end that would be a little more challenging over at Wildwood because we're building that a little bit into the hill but we will demonstrate that but I think that both be equally challenging. So I guess my question was, is this a priority priority. And secondly, is it a category we even want to have be part of our matrix for decision making. Since it seems like that's, we're building a pretty big school already, and whether we're saying oh that's a high priority for us that's sort of my question. No, that's fair Paul and then the other question would be kind of like what we were Mike was referring to is now if you add a classroom per grade or whatever now you're adding an additional, say 2025 kids just for me to do simple math you know that's a lot a lot more than 150 students for it's an extra 150 students per into the building so you'd be designing for 650 students schools that without even. Oh, I want to, I want to recognize that Tammy has joined us and I see a couple of hands up. Kathy, Phoebe and then Jonathan. When I react to Paul's question, I think maybe we could. To me it's not a priority. You know so I'm not sure whether I want to remove it entirely but since everything I've heard is that if, if we somehow miraculously got more children moving into town we want to expand Crocker, then I don't think it's a top priority in my mind for this decision but I just want to react completely to Paul's question. Okay, only reason my hand was up Phoebe. So I was, I was responding as well. I am not entirely sure that needs to be a priority however I really think that we do my feeling is that we should keep it in there. And the reason being, I think that there's. There's need for more affordable housing in Amherst and if we can create more affordable housing in Amherst, it makes our town more desirable for people. And for people with kids I think we have a lot to offer and I think Amherst is sort of a great place to be in general and therefore I don't know that that we should say with certainty that we're not going to see the kind of community growth that wouldn't then impact this school whether we're looking at it now as we would want to put more more kids in this school or not. I think if we're talking about the next 50 years down the line. It's something that we can't really afford to at the very least overlook. I'm not making a statement about priority or not I'm just making a statement about I don't think it should be removed I think it should be. And then there's think about yeah. Okay, so Jonathan. You, you prioritized it. What I think I may have prioritized it when I think we've done some consolidation. I don't remember thinking that that expansion was a was a high priority to me what I remember is we may have had a similar one that talked about just general flexibility of design I remember that being something I thought important. And so, and that remains up here. I would probably prioritize that one and, you know, I agree with Phoebe I probably leave it on, but I wouldn't prioritize it. So, I am going to unprioritize this one and ask the question of whether we want to prioritize this one educational and pedagogical flexibility. And I think this had to do, Mike and Don you're probably best to summarize this this had to do with the ability to reconfigure programming within the building as the world turns. Any thoughts about whether that one should be a priority I'm guessing that Mike would say absolutely yes. Yeah, I mean it's it's a really just bluntly. I know I don't want to try and not to deviate from the topic into what you're asking into an opinion but there's significant differences of the educational pedagogy of programming between adredo and new construction. So, I can wait till we get to that part to share more of that but yeah I think that's why we're doing this right we're kind of build a school that works for kids and teachers so you know I think you know I'll do respect to the other ones that I have a hard time. And from my vantage point deemphasizing that. Okay, yeah I think I think you know that's it's not going to be site specific it's going to be more building. Right. Seeing any other hands and I'm also looking at the clock and thinking we're at 904 so. If that looks good. Kathy do we need to. Oh sorry Rupert. I just seem to not be able to shut up today. I have a question about the equity category and I don't know whether this is the right place to bring it up in in previous discussions, my understanding is has been, you know, does this promote equity within our community. The question I have is whether we want to do any kind of evaluation of equity between the elementary schools, and, and the impacts of having two different schools and which district you're in. What effect that has on equity for folks there. And it's really just a question I don't really know how to interpret in my own mind and looking for feedback. Mike or Donna, either of you have any thoughts about that. I'm not sure if I'm talking about between the new building and cracker farm. We can't do that. Yeah, I mean, my two senses in the overall picture sure, but I don't know how that changes our criteria here. In other words, I wouldn't want us choosing a less optimal solution because it's closer to what the farm is like that seems like, like, you know, just incentives like let's make this school the best school possible and then as a community we have to commit to improving cracker farm over time and there was some conversation at the last ever school committee meeting about that very topic. We were not looked into the meeting but looked into the general topic so for me I have a hard time. I'm committed. I think as the inner school committee is to this conversation. I just don't know how this would help us choose between these and I think someone could interpret I know you don't rip it I positive you don't but oh let's let's not get as many. I don't know if it's as perfect as possible this go around so that right and I know that's not what you're intending but probably by the letter of the document if we added something along that dimension. It might go down that road. Does that make sense Rupert I'm trying not not at all to be dismissive I appreciate your ideas and what you're sharing I'm just not sure how this gets us to a better choice. Yeah, I guess part of what's in my mind is whatever selection we make wanting to get as much support from all of the voters and emerses. And so that's sort of the basis of the question. So I couldn't I don't know if other people you got very quiet at the end I couldn't hear you Rupert. Oh, I was just thinking about trying to get support all across the town for whatever selection we choose. And that was the basis of the question. See Kathy has a comment Kathy. I just have a really quick one. I downloaded and I'd be happy just to send it out after the meeting I downloaded the demographic data of Wildwood and Fort River, because of the children, because I just wanted to see whether one or the other had a lot more low income than the English language learners, you know, we have a school lunch and the answer is, they're very similar. If anything the Wildwood school has a, there were some differences like Wildwood has a higher percentage of black, but a lower percentage of another ethnic group, both have very high percentages of low income metrics of special needs So I was just looking for we, disadvantaged one of the most vulnerable populations and the answer is no, our schools are all serving a group so that made me comfortable that there's not a big difference when we're choosing between the sites on on what we're doing so that made me much more comfortable on on the fact that we're consolidating two schools. So, it's, and I'd be happy to send them out because I hadn't realized, I mean I know Mike looks at this data all the time but I said whoa, look, you know, you get impressions based on where you live on North Amherst I always think of North Amherst is the really low income part of town. Some of that shows up but no, we've got low income in South Amherst as well and it and I know the Crocker thing so I've got those profiles. I'll stop so we can get on to what we were hoping to do with today. Okay, so I think this is great input. The. So I think, at this point, I'll ask the group. I think there's two ways to proceed so one way is to proceed by looking at whether we want to eliminate any options the other one I would say to proceed is to actually start going line by line, and grading these. I think the first option if there are options to be taken off the table will allow us to focus on the ones that are floating to the top, but it's not up to me to decide so can I. Are there any comments about this approach, Sean I see your hand up. I would start grading them I think it would get, it will become clear when we start grading them if there's ones that are uniform across the board, and we could just move on if we feel like everyone has the same rating or they're not different enough between them. But I think it'd be good to start actually diving into each one and grading them. I see Jonathan's hand up. I was thinking that a couple weeks ago we had a job opportunity to talk about this it seemed like we might be able to eliminate a couple. Perhaps the the Adreno models and to me that would allow us to focus more deeply on the sites perhaps but I understand Sean's perspective and it would be perfectly happy going that way to sounds like Sean really wants to get started so I'm fine with eliminating options I just didn't want to go back into the criteria again but if it's if we're going to eliminate Adreno I'm all I agree with that. Okay, I see Kathy's hand up. That was my suggestion was going to be where Jonathan just was not to go back through the criteria rose Sean but when I went through. I found it hard to find any place where Adreno was superior. Even on costs. If we can do design bed build it's not superior and it was highly inferior I got a lot of not favorable in terms of a red for it so I thought we had kind of a consensus to take it off the table and I and when we met on May 20 and we're talking about it. I would be prepared to say, it's not going to be one of the preferred preferred option. I'm ready to say that now. So, Kathy just quickly follow up on that. I just want to confirm we don't have to grade those to show that it's inferior it's okay for us just to make that decision now. I think that was the last process. I thought we had a grade the Adreno option but maybe we didn't. I'll tell you what I think I would suggest if, if the committee wants to make that move, I would go ahead and grade the ones that are per the sort of floating to the top, and I would come back at the end and grade the Adreno. I think that would be great to allow you to focus. I think there are a bunch of reasons that they probably would not end up with as many favorable or highly favorable as the new. So, I don't see any other hands up about that. Oh, Jonathan is your hand still up from before. And it's gone. Okay. So, Kathy, do you do you want, maybe we just say we're going to start with grading the new ones right and then come back to the Adreno. My kisses hands up. Mike. I just, sorry, I want to support Sean's point. What I don't want to get is MSB asking us questions later as to why we didn't rank. Adreno, I don't disagree with any of the feedback or comments but it just been, you know, my experience is, because we all said we didn't want to do it as if usually they might want more information. So, no, no, there's no world on which we're not going to end up grading it so I just want to make sure. Yeah. All right, so I'm going to make an executive decision here that we're just going to go line by line. Okay. So, let us start with project costs. So, I think that in the range of all of these. If you were to give the green the highly favorable to any of these, it seems as though the Wildwood site options are lower, which, you know, I think we all understand is because the though for Riverside is bigger, and that this is one of many categories. Does it seem right to use that highly favorable or would you all prefer to use favorable. Sean. I did favorable just because all the costs him high. So I felt weird saying none of them were highly favorable so I just went favorable for Wildwood and and the one step down for forever. Okay. Any other kind I see Mike's head nodding. So then we would use similar for forever. You can't use similar because it's, I think, well, that's the problem with our scale. Yeah, I hear you know, with our scale if something isn't highly favorable, then we don't have many degrees to go below it. So, um, Well, and I think it's also that you know the terminology of the word similar I think is sort of awkward here that one of which is why I think the color is kind of I would think of it more of a color, and it's a distinction between these two options. Can I ask a question. I guess I'm a little bit confused so. And I want to clarify it before we get into more complicated categories because this kind of cost it's more of a. Um, so I was not looking at these kind of in one chunk so what I was doing was I did like Fort River add Renault Wildwood add Renault, which had kind of a different rating than maybe if we're looking at, you know, so I was kind of comparing them. Not just sort of a all of these Wildwood verse all of these Fort River because I felt very differently if we were talking about, you know, a Wildwood add Renault or Fort River add Renault is completely different than if it's a Fort River three story and a Wildwood three and to each other as well. So I just want some clarity on how we're doing this because I don't I want to get it clear now where it's we're in an easier category than a more complicated one. Well, you know, I think Phoebe, the, the first cut, well this one in particular, there are more expensive and less expensive options so I think this one is kind of a weird one to start with in some ways. And maybe, you know, we can come back to this one when we do others. I think with the others we're going to have to really go column by column. It's just that this one's a little bit binary just because of the way in the numbers landed and the way the numbers landed is completely related to the size of the site, because the designs are the same, right. That and I think what we're getting for it so I think that we get what we're getting for it which is what we're going to see and the other criteria below. This one is just price it's not what you're getting for the price it's just the price to cost comparison. So, so how about if we talk about access to public transit. You know, I'm going to talk here and look for reaction. Oh actually I see Angelica and Jonathan Sands. Angelica. Yeah, I also just wanted to get some clarifications while we're still early in the process because I was under the impression from last meeting that you would be taking down numbers to aggregate together to come up with sort of numerical, like totals for all of these categories so I was thinking that the each one of these corresponded to a number say one for not favorable for for highly favorable. And so are we just not doing numbers the one through four and just doing categories, and how would that be aggregated at the end. Well I think the numbers are tough because the numbers don't incorporate the priorities. So my thought about this is that we could, we will do colors I think what we're going to see at the end is that we're going to see some categories are going to have more greens than pinks or reds. And, and then some of those we can then we can sort of overlay that giving the priorities a sort of more intense color. I think the numbers are a kind of the, it's easy to do it that way but it doesn't necessarily then what you're, you end up with doesn't result in doesn't reflect your priorities. I see Kathy's hand and I see Jonathan's hand. On on costs. I inserted a line for DBB design build, which allowed me to differentiate where the new three stories were highly favorable the new two stories were favorable, and add Renault was unfavorable, you know so I just, I did. And I didn't do a big distinction between Wildwood and Fort River. So I'm just saying that that's mentally how I dealt with a line that caused me problems. If the only thing I could look at was a for where there's, you know, and then the Fort River, what Phoebe was saying Adreno at Fort River is more expensive. And there were a whole bunch of other things at Fort River I didn't think worked well with. So I'm, I made that highly unfavorable, you know in terms of a red so that's the way I worked with the cost number. So I was a bit interactive with what I was thinking later as I said, Adreno at Fort River versus Adreno at Wildwood. So that was just, this is a difficult line and I had had an easier time when I moved to the next rows. Kathy, do you want to add a line for design build. Well, I don't know how other, I don't know how others feel I, you know, I just mentally opened up a line under CM at risk. I threw another line in and I knew that the, the design bid builder 8 million less expensive so it was an easy to remember. I didn't even fill it in I just knew the magnitude so I left it. But that's what I was thinking between four and five pudding. And there's only two num, there's only only the new get designed bid bill so I don't know how others think about that but that's what otherwise I found myself in the odd position of thinking that less expensive was not necessarily better. So that the wild, the Wildwood 101 stands out as a quite a bit lower, but it's not when you look at DBB. So, I see Jonathan's nodding his head I just found without DBB in there just this didn't make sense to me. Yeah. I didn't go through the effort that the Kathy did to, to put an extra line in there but that's the way I scored it so I had both the add rentals as not favorable, and then had, you know, you know, favorable or highly favorable for the other, the other ones. And I have to say like Phoebe I had a hard time, you know, keeping what you get for out of the consideration even for this line. They just didn't seem like you're, you know, because you wouldn't be you wouldn't actually procure the projects in the same way. The numbers are as comparable as suggested in line for this. So I think the answer is yes, Margaret we could just add it in so people will see it in the matrix. And you don't have to put the whole thing in right now. Yeah, it's pretty easy to do. I'm not seeing any disagreement so maybe we can come back to rate it once you get it in. Okay, so, but it's pretty easy to do because basically, it's looks like this. Now I'm just, I'm just saying I, well, I don't want to belabor this, I literally put it underline for in a the actual number. And then when I was rating project costs, I took that line into consideration. You know, so it's so my rating wasn't of DBB it was just one line for project costs. So I needed to have that other line up above in, I can't get my cursor on it right after a for I had opened up a line called DBB cost. And then I put the DBB costs in there. And then that allowed me under project costs, the rating to do a rating that made sense to me. So this is really DBB capacity, if you will. No DBB dollars costs is, you know, it's the I was literally putting the cost numbers in. I see. In other words, I was, you gave Donna and you all gave us a chart that showed us it was $8 million less expensive. And you can only do it. It was 8 million on both sides. Got it. And I didn't, I didn't do then this. Yes, you got that's what I mentally did. And I just opened up a line for myself without trying to copy in the numbers because I could see the numbers then when I rated it. Add rental the worst I read it in red. And I rated the news favorable. Yeah, yeah, okay. I had had no neutrals, I had. Okay. Okay. Any other thoughts. I do not see any other other hands up. Are we going to come back to cost marker or are we going to. Yeah, I think we need to come back to those because I think that we did first of all, I don't have the numbers in here. And I, let's return to it. Move on. Okay. Okay, so. Equity and transition so access to public transit. We've certainly heard in public testimony and I think that the information that Rupert looked at bore out that the Fort River site has more frequent service. And Rupert, your diagram seemed to suggest that it also had. There was more coverage in terms of it being connected the Fort River site. No, it's the wildwood site that within a mile has many more roots. There's many more. Okay. So how should we go about rating these. One of them has more frequent connections the other has broader coverage. I don't think that's correct. I think that. If you look at the table, both of them have 20 minute connections nearby. 20 or 22 minutes. So it's equivalent. My take take out from that is that the, the proximity and frequency is equivalent, but the coverage is different. I think saying that. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Paul. I think what he's saying is that Amherst is a long skinny town. And so there's more north, south roots, getting close, close, but not as close as close to wildwood, but not as, but the sort of East West root is more frequent. Well, not more frequent, but it gets closer by several tons of a mile to Fort River. I see Mike's hand up. I see Sean's hand up. So, I've said this before in different ways, I think PVTA service and our current setting, regardless of where the stops are, including Parker farm and other places. I don't see this as being something. That's a huge variable between the sites. I mean, I'm happy to be out voted by the group, but you know it's not something that's used widely. There's a reason some of which Rupert kind of, you know, gave testimony to. So for me, this, this, this one comes out as essentially a wash. I think, you know, the access, you know, the wildwood not having to stop right next to it but also being on lines that are closer to lots of more frequent lines. You know, I think we're really splitting hairs on that one. And for me, it's, it's sort of a, you know, and I know I said I don't want neutral I just, I just don't think these are all kind of similar, you know, I don't think it's a determining factor for me, in terms of access. I think there's lots of other things we do at the schools in terms of providing buses for open houses and things like that that actually provide access to critical points for families to come in for to be connected or child dedication, much more so than PVTA. I do not see any other hands up. So, Mike, I think if to, if, if it were you up to you and Rupert, I think you would say that they are similar. They could be better across the board, and that there aren't major distinctions that we can comment on here. I think the distinctions kind of blend together right there are distinctions but I think in the aggregate, it ends up being a wash. Okay. Hang on a second. Sorry about that team party going on here. Okay, so let's talk about accessibility by walking comments on this one. I see Kathy stand up I see Mike stand up. I did the same thing on this one as we just did on public transit. There I see basically no difference between here we're comparing sites, no difference. There were more students who lived within a mile of Wildwood. However, very few students lived within a half mile of either school so I just see it as similar. And we don't have a lot of walkability, the way we're currently structured. And, and my only other comment is, I grew up in a town with a grade school, where we got to school a mile and a half as grade schoolers we wrote our bikes, but Amherst is not a biker friendly place, particularly for small kids. So I don't think most parents would put their child on a bike to go a mile and a half to school. So at this age, so there was there was some differences but I had this salmon colored this this neutral that I didn't see variations. Mike. I agree with Kathy. A bit, because our lived experiences that Wildwood has significantly more walkers than Fort River Fort River separate from the proximity. It's just surrounded by three really busy roads. Right. It's got Southeast Street, Pellum Road, and route nine. That's the three roads that surround it so it is separate from proximity it's just really difficult to walk there are walkers at Fort River there's a crossing guard out there. See them and experience them. There are significantly more walkers at the Wildwood site and it's, it's mostly because two fold one there's a neighborhood behind Wildwood. So if you think of Wildwood on the strong street side. There's a significant number of homes behind it that never have to cross a major road to get to Wildwood. Right. And if you go in the morning you'll see them walking down the big hill from strong street. Going to the school and the second is the neighborhoods close to where I am right now, which is the middle school roads and I see, you know, kids walking with, you know, sometimes with their families. So there is, I don't think it's like a huge right I'm not using the dark green or the red on this one so on that one I grew with Kathy we're talking about shades. But for me that I do see Wildwood is more favorable and I've heard directly from families who are very very concerned about losing that I mean Crocker farm has the neighborhood right behind Crocker farm as well which doesn't even though it's on West Street, it's got a neighborhood, you have driving those ones and families often like to buy homes there because they look forward to walking their kids to elementary school for as long as the kids will tolerate having their parents walk them, which is usually about fourth grade. And so, you know, for me the Wildwood site would probably be in the favorable and the Fort River site would be in the similar, you know, again I don't cut the distinction with the bright colors but I do see a distinction and you know we're working with the safe roots of school folks and they're my initial what I heard initially is that they are seeing more walkers at once I compared to the other. So my two cents. I'm certainly one of 13 people or however many in this group but that's what I experienced. I withdraw my comment. Well Mike I think you're the one with the most direct lived experience of it to Tammy and Allison want to chime in actually I don't see Allison now and Paul's hand is up to Margaret. I was going to say the same thing, similar thing to Mike but I, you know in terms of the safe route to school and different points of access, you know, cutting through through the middle school to Wildwood I think that is an advantage. And I do, when I look at it this as a plant my put my planner hat on it's, you know, having, you know, Palm Road and East Street and college street there's no getting around those are major intersections that people have to navigate children would have to navigate to get there and so creating as many entry points to a school that promotes walking which is what where we want to go as a community I think, which is what the folks attack and different folks are looking at safe roots schools. I think there's some advantages, so I would do the same with Mike it's not, it's not a slam dunk advantage but it's definitely a tick up. Tammy do you want to chime in. Sorry, I'm distracted. Okay. I guess I would have to agree both with what Mike and Paul have discussed so I don't know that I have anything new other than my own lived experience here at Port River and my years teaching. I mean, unless there's some magical way of getting kids to school in a way that's really, really safe. I just, I feel like Wildwood at least has their capability of getting kids to school and safer through walking or biking. Okay. So, I don't see any other hands so up Phoebe sorry. I guess what I have is more of a question I'm wondering if new developments would change our perspective on this. Because if there's going to be more new development down at Fort River than it might become more. You know, I don't know, I don't know that the roads, obviously the roads will not change the roads will be the roads, but will having more children closer to that school change. You know, accessible walking to it. Well, I mean, I, it could, if there were associated improvements with the walking path. I think it's in this particular case it's, it's difficult to put a grade to the future. I would probably argue against doing that, because I think there are other. There's a whole bunch of other items here that, you know, make Fort River a strong reason this I don't think is one of them but I see Ben and Mike's hands both up. Ben why don't you go next. Yeah, I would say so so for me neither is, is, you know, the red or the, the dark red or the dark green but I probably feel a little bit more strongly than than Mike and Paul about the walkability at in terms of like Fort River so you have the I'm just thinking about how you would get from the apartment complexes, specifically where you have like a large groups of kids there. Yeah. You're crossing like a major route there to get across right so to me that makes it far less safely accessible via walking. Whereas like, there's a direct sidewalk from, I mean you have like a village park and Olympia. There's a direct sidewalk with one crossing, and you're crossing strong street not pleasant, right so to me I lean. I think about accessibility via walking and safety. I would feel much stronger than wildwood is far more safe to walk, but neither is great, I would say, neither is great. All right. I do have a chance to come back and look at these after we get through this but I think I definitely like to try to get through one iteration of this so that we can look back at it and critique what we've done. I don't think what we're doing here is permanent so why don't we move on to the educational category. Okay, so optimizes configuration and adjacency of teaching spaces. I'm going to say that what I've heard here for others to respond to is that the, the new options have better satisfy this configuration and teaching items I see Mike nodding so I'm going to tentatively do this. I'm going to ask for comments on that. I am not seeing any hands up Donna, can't hear you still can't hear you. She's getting frustrated. We still can't hear you. Tim, can you hear what she's saying I guess you guys are not in the same place. Okay. I'm not seeing any other hands on this so maybe we get back to Donna when she figures out her sound. Okay educational and pedagogical flexibility. I think again, what we've heard is that the new building options do provide the flexibility to reconfigure with the changes in curriculum. Mike, do you want to make any comments about that. Yeah, I mean it's somewhere to the last, the last category had that I think we lose a lot of flexibility in the ad reno. We lose a lot of kind of adjacency flexibility to things are sort of stuck where they are and not in the way that we want them to be and so, you know, I do feel like there's a real pedagogical loss, an educational loss and ad reno The fatigue of Donna and your team by the way, it's an artifact of the part of the building we're keeping and how I think they've creatively designed natural light to get in the downside of that is it positions where the spaces are in ways that are in my opinion are more accessible and locked in that it does not changeable so it's not that I'm against ad reno it just I'm principle it's just when I look at the models. I see them as significantly less desirable educationally than the new. I see Kathy stand up, and I see Donna putting a thumb up thumbs up for Mike what Mike just said. Okay, I completely agree with Mike what Mike just said but I wouldn't code it Sam and I would call it red. So this is a negative this is a negative on ad reno to me. So I would make, and I'm not differentiating between the two sides I would make it a red. Margaret I have one suggestion just because I'm not on a great big screen. Yeah, I'm not sure we need column C right now so if you hit it, I would be able to see the faces and see the rating. And hide the column. Hang on a second. It's, I'm, I, whoops, go down to there. That just makes it easier for me to see it on my screen so thank you. Oh, shoot. Hang on a second. I'm sorry, everyone. But you know I haven't hitched up a big screen so I've got faces on top of the grid. Sorry, I'm going to have to quickly redo this. Okay, so we were. No. That's right. I'm just looking for him so Jonathan while I recode these. Yeah, my question is more for Mike and whether or not, from an educational perspective, he sees any difference between the two story and three story schemes. You know, at this early stage I was having difficulty at times kind of ranking between them and I was wondering if this was a place where where maybe there was some difference. Is it okay to jump in since that question was directly tied to me Margaret. Yes please. Yeah, so it's a great question I should have included that so I thought. For me, the ad reno I agree should be read. And for me the two story I found favorable should be that lighter green and for me, the three story I found highly favorable because there were some advantages, particularly how far people kids and adults were walking to get to spaces that has lots of implications for our educational program and having a more vertical alignment reduces some of that and it also creates for some of our specialized programs having spaces on each floor that isn't down a very long hallway which we all three of our elementary three long hallways that when anyone you know but we're thinking of kids are dysregulated are barriers. And so I definitely see the two story build new significantly better than the ad reno but I would put the highly favorable on the three story bottle. Thank you for the question I should have said that before Donovan I appreciate it. Good point. So I see Tim stand up, and I see Kathy stand up. Not, not mine. I am just going to try to be the bridge for Donna's audio problems and say that she strongly agrees with Mike's comments and that the difference between reno added new should be the brighter colors not the salmon and the green as they were originally stated. Okay. I see Tammy stand up. John, I think one of the things I noted when I did the walk through it three story building was both how quiet the the hallways were, I think do in part to less students and classrooms per floor. And I think for our students that are neurodiverse have trouble trouble with attention executive function I think that that really serves them to a higher degree. I think, while a two level. I think I would say would be favorable, because it would still reduce the amount of noise I think the three, three story is highly flavorable favorable because of, because of diminishing distractions. I see Angelica stand up and Mike stand up. Yeah, I just wanted to add to what Tammy said about the second versus the third three story I think also in terms of inclusion. It's much easier to have a different and for me, the third story is the most favorable the highly favorable because for students with particularly special needs and for inclusion it just allows for better of like a comorational grades and so it's it's much, much better design in that way. Okay. Kathy. I'm just wondering on the line before on optimizing configuration and adjacency given what Angelica should three story be the brighter green. Because it seems to me that part of what we're saying is, you can configure the spaces in a way that really helps for the way you teach so I just would make three story green on that category as well that bright green. I do not see any other hands. So I'm going to tackle provides a range of outdoor learning opportunities. The things that were identified were green space for outdoor programs types of natural environments to study inadequate space to conduct classes outside. Anybody want to take a hazard at this. Mike stands up. No one else wants to I'll start. I'm usually not so chatty at these meetings but I'm happy to talk if needed. So, you know, Fort River is, you know, especially given the work that's included in the cost estimates for the fields. It is more preferable, right so I don't think there's a huge, you know, a wildwood actually the, the ad reno seems pretty okay in terms of green space. But the new construction gets much tighter on green space, as I recall the drawings, and at forward all the drawings I think are quite favorable. There's a lot of space back there and the improvements that are part of those costs estimates are so and I don't see much of a difference I think, you know, the Fort River is highly favorable, sort of regardless of ad reno or new. I see the distinction between ad reno wildwood, which still looks like a significant amount of green space but the new construction gets gets much tighter so but I see there's other people's hands up which I'm glad to see so I'll stop talking now. Maybe. I had, I had a lot of the same thoughts I thought Fort River across the board for me was. What are we calling it highly advantageous I'm trying to. So, you know, the, the bright or dark green. I also thought the ad reno on wildwood. I had that as the lighter green the advantageous I think you know what it is now is is okay. It's workable we have space. For me with, especially the two story option was dark red on wildwood. And I even put the dark red on the three story option I just think with increased parking space with, you know, I just think all the way sort of across the board when I'm trying to compare these things that always sticks out for me, as you know, just a. It doesn't work. Difference of opinion here I, I think the three story. Wildwood is at least favorable I wouldn't make it any worse than that person. So that would be this. So the one that's really problematic is the Wildwood, you just say the Wildwood history. And the similar. Sorry, I used the wrong color similar for add reno. So it looks like that. Phoebe is your hand still up. I actually raised it again because I want to ask another clarifying question. So I, when I was looking at these I was comparing them not looking at them as standalone options. So I want to make sure that's how we're talking about them and how other people are looking at them. Because I, in comparison that's where my mind went in comparison when I'm comparing Wildwood to Fort River with the same school options. But you know, sort of the darker colors versus the, the more neutral interior lighter colors. That is, that is the purpose this is it's a comparative exercise yes. Okay, all right, then yeah I'm strongly on both what I said before. Okay, so you that you would make this one Rupert thinks this one is a similar and you think this is a no. Kathy and Sean. I think I'll go down you know the one thing I, we can't three can't easily three C3D's on these I don't think the two story works on Wildwood I agree with Phoebe definitely more red. The three story will have about half the footprint that the current building has. So we're opening up a lot of green space and I know I'm not supposed to do this but I think of. In the schools, there is a tan book there's a lot of things right near it, it's not necessarily owned by the school, so there could be. There's access so I wouldn't make the three story any less than a favorable I wouldn't make it highly favorable I think Fort River is highly favorable. Okay, so I'm, I'm not really quibbling with the things to the extent I can see the colors on my screen. Okay. Oh yeah Kathy sorry, this is where I don't want you to lose the. No, it's fine. Make sure you save this. It's safe. So, Phoebe, I put a question mark on this one where there's a difference of opinion between you and Rupert. Sean. So, so I agree with Kathy I think the, I think the Hawthorne properties right next to Wildwood I think that gives a lot of opportunities. I think the new two story of Fort River should probably be the darker green, because there's just so much more space than I don't see that to be in the same shade as the three story Wildwood because there's so much more space and then I just wanted to make sure I think in the original version accessible by walk in we had sort of the light shaded green for Wildwood. I could be wrong on that but I think right now it's all the same color across the two sites but yeah somebody else correct me if I was wrong about that. Yeah, there you go. Okay, Alicia, I see your hand up. I've heard a lot of comments about the Hawthorne site but that's not something we've ever really talked about. And so I was wondering if we could talk about that a little bit because I'm not sure like I don't know about how access to that site would actually work for the children during the day and how often and frequently they would be able to use that. Maybe Paul can arrange for Dave Zomek to come and talk about that property at some point. He's the, he's the expert on that property. Is it currently used at all for this. Does anybody use it? I don't think it's used. But it is it's it was purchased by the town. And I think what David said, but again we should go to him, because that was purposely, it was purpose. One of the arguments was its proximity to Wildwood that could be utilized in the future for recreational purposes. And I believe it was CPA funds. CPA funds. So, yeah. Margaret, I. Yeah. I also think I don't know that I wasn't questioning the add Renault option. I think we were talking about the three story Wildwood option. I think is where I felt differently just to clarify, you had the question mark over the add Renault as opposed to the three story. Oh, got it. Okay. Does anyone want to look at the Wildwood site to talk about Alicia's question or how do you want to address this. I'm just doing a time check because we said we were going to end at 10, and we're approaching 10 on whether people can stay somewhat longer. Because it the. So, and then what I would suggest is we can come back to this one because to get access to Hawthorne, we would probably have to open up a trail but it is right there is wide open space. And it can be used for recreation we've confirmed that you can put place, you could play material structures on there. So, looking to the committee on can we, we've still got a bunch more rows to go. Do we want to come back keep going for, and I think I posted this with public comments. So we, and we haven't had those yet. I see your hand up. Yeah, sorry, I just had an additional comment and that I don't think we should take the Hawthorne site into consideration during our decision making process because none of those things have been taken into consideration throughout this entire process like they're not the numbers are not included in our cost estimates. That's not something we had planned for so I just don't think we should take it into consideration when looking at the evaluation matrix. I've made a note about that. And, and this one has a question mark on it anyway so why don't we come back to that and look at minimizes teaching and learning impact sharing construction. So, again, what I've heard is that the, the ad reno versions by virtue of being longer are less optimal. Make them red. Make them red. Yeah, I think they're red. Okay. And the, and the therefore, because this is a priority item, the new construction options are better. So, hands on that I see Phoebe I see Mike. I would tend to not have the two Wildwood options the dark green. I think, because we lose a lot of you know we lose playgrounds we lose any outdoor space it has we you know I think that I think that there's just more because it's a smaller site things are more contained. I think we, you know, I think this is one of those areas where there is a big difference between the two different sites. I think everything is closer. And I think, you know, I probably would go so far as to put it. This again is where it's difficult for me, I had it the dark red only because it's not similar at all. And it's not to me favorable by any stretch so. Okay, I see Mike I see Jonathan. Oh, I'll defer to Jonathan and go after. Two quick things. One is I scored mine the same way that Phoebe did. But was this the one we realized we lost some, some edits, was this the one we split. And then there's another edit that you didn't get to correct which was to de emphasize provides flexibility for expansion that's still emphasized. So one was minimizes duration. And one was minimized as teaching and learning impact during construction, and I think this Phoebe the scoring that you're doing is really kind of for both, right, you were scoring. It's both an issue of duration. And I think you're saying for teaching and learning, you would make them all read. I would, and as, as well as duration. How do people feel about the minimizes duration on what well the duration though is similar for these new options, and these new options so. No, it's not because Wildwood is much, much longer. That's what we talked about on on Friday. Donna is agreeing with you. So there you go. Don, I really wish you get your microphone. Sean, I see your hand up. So maybe Tim can go over the, the piece of Wildwood so I agree that it was longer I don't recall what the presence was during that, that extra phase at Wildwood. I thought it was limited to a parking lot but maybe Tim can go over that one more time because I agree that forever would be better but I don't know necessarily that Wildwood be the dark red but I could be misremembering what the magnitude of the, that extra phase wasn't how impactful it was to the school during that time. Sure. The final phase would be a reconfiguration of that part of the parking lot that would probably have to be configured in a temporary fashion. So they could do the geothermal well field and parking for the school as they're demoing and just because there's not as much room. The contractor would most likely not be fully mobilized so there wouldn't be trailers and stuff but there certainly would be work going on site as they did the final completion of whether it's parking or drop off loop in that part of the site. It wouldn't be the full complement of contractors but it would, it would certainly be work going on site and there would be some level of disruption. Can we see phase two actually Tim or Margaret whoever's controlling this. It's me. And then how does phase to how does this differ from Fort Rivers, because I thought that what we had said was that there would be no construction actual construction through spring of 2027 for Wildwood but everybody would kind of be off site much earlier for Fort River. So actual building construction and demolition would be similar between the sites but it's that third phase the final disposition of the site. So there would be site work heavy equipment, paving, possibly curb setting stuff like that would happen in that third phase on Wildwood, which at Fort River site since the parking is more access to it and you don't have to go through it to get to the construction areas or the school areas. It will be available to be, you know, and the geothermal wells will not be under that portion of the parking it will be available to be configured in its final position. You know during the summers of 2425 and 26. So you wouldn't get into 27. To conclude my comments. I thought the, you know when I did my evaluation I thought about it more in terms of points and instead of color so for me this was sort of a two point difference I gave Fort River three and I gave Wildwood a one on this one. Okay. So I'm going to put a question mark on these. So that it's more. More pink, more pink than red. And actually Margaret can I just ask one quick clarifying question because this could make a big difference. Does that mean Tim that the, the geothermal system will be won't be operable for one year later as well. Well, in all the options the geothermal is operable once the school opens and because it has to be operable when the school opens that's why you have that third phase at Wildwood because you're taking the area where you would normally be doing parking and doing the geothermal work which allows you which doesn't allow you to do the parking or the final site configuration. There won't be any just to confirm there won't be any loss of that sort of energy savings under either option. Yeah, with a new construction at day one you would be operating as a net zero school. Yes as a net zero school. So, I see Angelica Alicia and Kathy's hands are all up. I just want to confirm. Is there anyone who has to has a hard stop at this point because it's 10 o'clock. Paul has a hard stop. So, Kathy, I think we still have a, still have a quorum if Paul has to jump off. Paul, do you want to do you have anything you wanted to add before you left, and then I'll turn back to Angelica Alicia and Kathy. No, I'll watch the, I'll watch it. I just have somebody waiting outside. Okay, we have a clock meeting now. Let you go. All right, so Angelica and then Alicia. Let's go to the coding matrix to see that one. Oh here. Oh, yeah, the coding matrix because I'm a little confused about what's getting read and what's getting sort of a lighter pink because I also like Sean was working more numerically, but I found it just numerically. Your screen is still showing. Sorry. Thank you. I've still got the other item up. I just found that if I'm going to now convert to more color based that in terms of the impact that, and I'll wait until the chart goes up. Thank you. There we go. So, yeah, I found that for Wildwood, it was for me, I guess it would be the equivalent of the red. So in terms of minimizing duration and minimizes teaching learning impacts and I think seeing the charts of face one and two and the proximity of the construction equipment relative in Wildwood relative to Fort River was really impactful for me to to kind of change my mind about the sites. So it's, it's for me, that's a big concern, particularly, you know, for kids with sensory concerns, having that equipment so close and Wildwood is really concerning. Okay. So you would, you would vote with Phoebe that these should all be read. Okay, Alicia. So I don't want to repeat what everyone has already said because I was going to say pretty much exactly what Angelica just said but so I just want to say that I agree with both Phoebe and Angelica in terms of how I would have rated this. Okay. So let's talk about easy access within building to common spaces. So, Mike. Tim. Donna, if we've got a microphone on you. Mike, I can jump in. It's very your voice is very weird Donna. In a nutshell. So, maybe you can text Tim and he can he can tell us what you're going to say Mike go ahead. I mean, I think in terms of things that access within the buildings, the common spaces. You know, I see this as another one that's a negative for the ad reno. And then very, very similar the same for the new construction. I'm just making sure I'm understanding it correctly because you know the new spaces, the common spaces. It's very damn. Yeah, the interior spaces are quite similar. Again, I slightly prefer the three story versus the two story, but in terms of common spaces, I don't think that makes a tremendous difference. So it's really for me about new construction versus ad reno than the site stuff but other people clearly have their hands up so. And Margaret he's saying. Ad reno is red. All right, I see Alicia I see Ripper. Sorry, I just forgot to put my hand down from. Okay, then it's then it's Ripper. I just wanted to say I appreciated the question marks in the previous topic because I don't really think that the new buildings at. I don't think that the wildwood are comparable to add reno in terms of duration and disruption, and this makes them all comparable so we could have for the discussion. I will leave them in there. Any other hands on number six easy access for them building to common spaces. Tim. Just again acting down his microphone yet. Between access to common spaces should probably be the full spectrum. Just because the flexibility afforded by new construction allows you to put the spaces where you need to be and therefore all of your travel distances and adjacencies are just. It's a big difference. You're saying it should be dark green. Yes, dark green. Okay. Alrighty. So this is the final benefits from location adjacencies so this was, I believe this line item came out of the question about what the value was to have the campus, the wildwood campus. Correct, Mike, I think that was this item. And it probably should the tech should probably be more clear that that's what it is but Alicia, I see a hand up. And I see Phoebe and I see Mike and I see Sean. But Alicia, why don't you start. Yeah, I just wanted to comment on this because this is like part of the discussion that I kind of wish we would just omit this from our decision making process because like, I mean, we didn't agree on a campus model. I think it leaves out one of the schools and so I think that this should just be not like I just don't see this as an option to to grade the two sites. I don't see it as like a helpful distinguishing factor between the two. Okay, Sean, why don't you go next. So, I was just going to say a number six. We might want to think about whether the two building the three building or three story and the two story differ. Because I just remember the two story being longer and maybe they're being a little bit farther from common spaces. And for educational benefits. So, so I do think the campus model is helpful. So I gave Wildwood sort of the, the dark green and Fort River the similar that the tan color. So it's not just the this proximity to the schools I thought about the proximity to the pools and the track and field and the other things that are within short walking distance from that site that made it very positive. So this is one where it's either yes or no so Sean I think your grading would be that there is, there is a favorable advantage to the Wildwood site and not less favorable advantage to the Fort River site on this item. I see Mike's hand I see Angelica's Phoebe's and Kathy. I'll be very brief. I don't have more to add the Sean's, but I do see an advantage I also see an advantage from a school safety perspective, and as educational benefits but just being close to things here in the number of times you walk up or down from high school to middle office. I don't think it's like a one to four for using numeric so I really again don't have much add much to add to Sean but there are adjacencies and some benefits and other ones that could be explored and that's not ignoring here Alicia's point of view and respect that but for me it is something that I think is worth having on here and they're from my educational point of view there is some tangible positive benefit. Okay, I see Angelica and Phoebe and Kathy. Just quickly I found this category a little bit confusing because I wanted to unpack educational benefits more and all the local adjacencies for two reasons one is I initially wasn't just thinking about campus model I was also just thinking about. I was thinking about the fields and Fort River and sort of comparing those kind of adjacencies so there was just a lot to impact that I just found that category a little bit harder to rate that I initially anticipated and ended up with a lot of sort of that neutral salmon because of that difficulty in distinguishing by the sort of you know educational benefits of local adjacencies I wasn't just right away thinking you know one campus model and just the adjacencies to the schools and I was thinking more an overall adjacencies to a lot of other things. Phoebe. So I. Sorry. Let me try to speak again. So, I'm not obviously a Wildwood mom I'm a cracker mom so I don't have firsthand knowledge so I went and I tried to talk to some people that I do know our parents at Wildwood because I was trying to figure out, you know, do we. The idea of this campus model like is this something we utilize now like is there is this something are the kids currently at Wildwood benefiting more so from being there. And I couldn't, I couldn't seem to find anybody who anybody who was like yes because there's all this interaction or they get more access to I didn't find any of that so I find it a little bit hard to rate Wildwood higher. We're not doing it currently. And also I don't think it's in our it's going into our ed plan to take advantage of the things that the middle school and high school may offer to our kids on that site. So, I mean, it sounds great if that's what we do but I'm not convinced that that's what we do and like I said, I don't have firsthand knowledge of that but in talking to people who would. I didn't hear that we utilize sort of this campus model now. I didn't see it anywhere in our ed plan to to sort of transition to this. And so I don't know how we rate it higher if we're not doing it or we're not including it as something that is important to start to do. So that was just my. Okay, Kathy. Well, given that Angelica wasn't sure even what it meant. I think if we keep it, we have to reword it. So if we mean that if we need it's meet we meet if what we mean is that it's right near the middle school in the high school. And Phoebe, I've been doing the same kind of questioning. What I think is we're not using some of the potential that should be there. And we, you're, I've been forwarding the various public comments for getting quite a few talk about the benefit to the extent they're in the Wildwood system of they have an older child and a younger child that they're coming to one campus. And we have had a few people talk about the children in the high school coming back to the Wildwood group interacting and Ben at one point talked about custodial staff being able to walk up and down the hill. And it is a benefit for the location. I wouldn't put it as a high priority. And it's, we'll have 575 kids there so, you know, 400 families 300 families that it's a potential, because of the location that I think is worth something in the way same way the hypothetical. There were more kids living near Fort River could more than walk, I think we could take advantage of it so I'm low to just take it away but I wouldn't make it a top priority criteria, and I definitely reword it to make. So we could make it neutral or we could say it's only a pale green, I wouldn't even make it a highly advantage, you know highly favorable, but it's a fact about where the school is located. You know if you go and walk that the other thing is I've been walking both Wildwood and Fort River, like I think I've done him like six, five or six times now. The nestled in this of it is very much it's connected to the middle school with a whole walkway and a running way with people circulating around. So you do get a feeling like it's part of an education community there that I, we can't replicate. It's the only place that has that so we, if we don't use it, and we give it up then it's not a big loss. So I'll stop, but I think it's a weak criteria not one of my strong ones. Okay I see Alicia and I see Angelica and Jonathan. So I just want to say I like the way that Angelica was looking at it because I was thinking of it exclusively as a campus model. Like that was the only thing I was thinking of when I was looking at it. And to me, still that whole idea is sort of problematic. Not only because it leaves out Crocker Farm and then we'll have like, if there are educational benefits at all then there are a portion of our students who won't receive those educational benefits. And I also just am questioning what the educational benefits would really be I feel like it's more beneficial to the staff and the people working in the building than per se the children. And I don't really know I think it would be great if people's kids could be next to each other, but like, they're not going to be dropped off in the same parking lot, and it's going to be a difference either way. So I just don't see those as really highly determining factors like Kathy said I don't see them as a priority, or something that is highly going to change my decision at all. So that's why I was like I'm not sure but if we're thinking about it like how Angelica was thinking about it, in terms of like broader access to other things and adjacencies I think I would do a similar thing to what Angelica did and rate them similarly. Jonathan. So I was going by the notes that were currently hidden. And so I did the same thing that Angelica did. I saw regional schools and I saw playing fields. And I was thinking playing fields and Fort River. So I had kind of neutral tones across the whole thing and it wasn't very differentiating. I'll just finish by saying it. So far today and previous times, I've heard more of a logistical benefit, which there's nothing wrong with but I'm not sure I'm necessarily hearing a decided educational benefit but I'm not an educator. Angelica. I just wanted to respond to Phoebe's, because I am a Wildwood parent and also Fort River parent and so my concern with sort of thinking and evaluating educational benefits is that it didn't seem concrete, because we are not currently doing those things. And, you know, it seems like a lot to project that is not concrete yet or it's in any sort of real plan that's been implemented that would allow me to grade it any higher than just that salmon color. I'm comfortable with salmon across. Okay. So, building. Let's talk about optimizes use of natural light and solar orientation. I think what I have heard, and I'm sure Bruce is listening is that the existing buildings the buildings that the adrenaline options, because they are were sort of put there before this was a focus are not not strong are not in the green category, shall we say, and that the new buildings are, but I'm curious whether people think this is something should that should be highly rated or rated on a sort of pale paler color range if you will. I see Angelica Sam. I see Kathy Sam. Sorry, I forgot to put it. Kathy, I would do dark green and and red as the two. I mean, maybe I can be pink, but we can't change the orientation of Adreno so. Yeah. And we're so we're clearly not optimizing so I think it's a disadvantage of. I think, I think it is a disadvantage of Adreno. So I'm not I wouldn't make it salmon. I know we don't have shades of red, but it to me it's a red. I see, I see Tim's hand up. I just want to jump in and say that there is a significant difference between Adreno and new, both in soil orientation that you have to adhere to the existing building and just where it is and then the floor to floor heights as opening sizes that will there will be significant work done including demolishing the existing building in the portion that remains that will all improve a day lighting but they will not be able to move it to the point of a new building so the difference should be dark red to dark green. Okay, Jonathan. I agree. Okay. I see no more hands so going to go to optimizes energy efficiency. Now, this is a priority item, but we heard earlier and comment that there will be from Tim that there will not be a performance difference. between these. Is there another shade of this which is about another perspective about this time to can you chime in on this perhaps they will all be net zero there will be a performance. The difference to a degree between renovation addition and new construction. And to get the renovation addition to new construction you'll have to accommodate for that by building more PV. So that there is a difference, but at the end of the day they are all going to perform. Okay, I see the standards of the town require but there will be somewhat more investment to get the renovation in addition to perform to the same level just because you're dealing with a less than ideal orientation of the building, the ratio of condition space to exterior envelope and then you'll just have to add more PV. Okay. I see Jonathan's hand. It's just another agreeing it's just that with new buildings, you're going to be able to do things that you won't be able to do in the renovation even though we're doing deep dives into those those buildings if we were to renovate them. They'll never be quite as tight or as quite as state of the art. Okay. I don't see any other any other hands so can we take up close connection between outdoor and indoor space. Think Phoebe I think this might have been your item that it was about a distinction between the two and three story space as it related to how quickly kids could get outside. Can you Sounds like me. Three story. Three story proponent. I think I honestly don't remember the intent. But I, I, I don't know. I'm sorry I can't speak to that. Okay. Kathy. This is one when I went to rated I would prefer just deleting it. I think we have a lot of good stuff on the outdoor space. So it was one. I think it was a major factor. I think we've got some amazingly creative outdoor space that will be connected to by light and air. So it was my feeling was, I would kind of rate them similarly that two stories a little bit better which makes the the reno because it's lower slung. So it might be a little bit better but that doesn't make it favorable to me. Yeah, though it was a funny one. Because I didn't want to give green to something that I otherwise didn't think very highly of. Okay. So, Sean. So I have to leave at 1030 so I just wanted to let the committee know and Kathy have your co host so I'll have to pass that baton to somebody else. Well, so it's 1025. Kathy, I know we need to take public comment. Do you want to turn, do you want to keep going do you want to come back to the last seven items. And let me take Mike's hand is up. I mean, I know a lot of people have work schedule so Mike, let's get a. Yeah, so it's going to bring up that but also just from a process perspective. My experience is after about an hour and a half of dialogue. Right. Our dialogue gets less constructive, right less detailed and so my perspective separate because I'm good for a little bit more time but that as people, you know, pause with the town manager leaving finance director leaving a lot of people in the town and we're about to get to the next meeting which is where probably I get much more quiet and other people, you know, jump in more so, you know, I would advise us to perhaps stop where we are for today, start the next meeting with finishing the chart, because I'd hate for people not to be able to weigh in on some of these issues. I'm going to take that, Alicia, I will call on you but I think that's a really good suggestion and I just want to, we meet again on Monday at 830 and if we can. We have to get to a preferred choice time wise so if people can just figure out, you could send me later should we should we start the meeting earlier can we stay potentially to 11 because on this and Margaret would send out the matrix as far as we've got now. So, Alicia, does that sound all right to you to to turn to public comments now. Yeah, I also have have to leave like I can say a couple minutes after 1030 but I have to leave shortly, but I was wondering, like, can we take a motion to eliminate an option or do we want to save all of that for Monday. Sean pointed out that we should have the matrix in front of us when we're doing it so we could take it to take something I would call a straw motion. You know, a sense of the group. And I'm willing to make it. It seems to me as we fill this out that add Renault does not rise to a level of being a preferred option. So I would make a motion that when we come back on Monday we might start with trying to complete the matrix and make that decision so I don't know a Sean and Margaret knows that you know MSBA, a record that we did the matrix person then came back and voted on it. But add Renault now has enough reds in it that it's not going to rise to the level of being preferred. So can we make the motion is what I'm asking. Well, I mean I think you can but at this point. You know I think I'd probably just continue with the process that you've started. I think it's becoming clear that the add Renault will not be one be the preferred option that add Renault versions won't be the preferred option. But I would probably do what Alicia is suggesting which is finish it and then take a vote on the whole item, including the elimination of the lines that we suggested be deleted. Alicia, I think we'll, we'll, we'll start out Monday, right away with that but I'm trying to get to completion, Sean. I just want to say I do have to go so I was going to see if you wanted to make Margaret a co host. Just so you have a co host in case something happens. Okay, I'm losing my host. Your host your co host you're the host. No, I'm losing my co host make co host. Okay, you've been promoted. Thank you. Okay, so, so I would, without any more long winded conversation by me, is it all right with everyone if I open up for public comments. And I saw that several people have to leave. And we're approaching so we do still have a quorum but we. Is that okay. I don't see anyone saying no so we're open for public comments. My request would be to keep them short if possible. I'm not seeing, I'm looking for hands. I don't see any hands are up. They're waiting for the big moment next Monday. I'm not supposed to be. I'm giddy early in the morning so Alicia is your hand still up or is that just not down yet. Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to clarify because what I meant by what I was saying earlier was that I think we should eliminate an option today. In terms of how long our meetings are. That we're supposed to be making our final decision on Monday. And I think eliminating some options that we know are clearly not going to be our chosen options will sort of narrow our conversation points and our focus for Monday which I think would be really helpful. And I know like I think the matrix was something that we came up with as a committee and not something like the MSBA told us we had to do. And so I think like at this point if everyone on the committee feels strongly that we can tell from this matrix that we don't want to move forward with the Adreno I think it would be wise to make that decision now so that on Monday we can come back and more I'm not saying we don't have to complete the matrix but I think if we all know I'm not really understanding the point of prolonging and then elongating the next meeting. Well, I'm willing to consider emotion I think Alicia is Alicia is making a motion that we do not put put forward Adreno as a preferred option. If people are people willing to we have a second and are people willing to go to a vote for that. A second. I second that. Phoebe seconded it so are people ready to vote. All right, we're going to vote. Adreno, not, not putting it forward as a preferred option and Margaret will get decent wording on that motion. I will call out people's names, Alicia. Yes. Kathy is a yes. Yes. Rupert. No, I think we should wait until the next meeting and finish other things first. Okay, so you are an abstain. I'm saying no, we should not vote. Okay, don't know. Okay, Mike. Yes. Tammy. Yes. Phoebe. Yes. Jonathan. Yes. We made a, we have a phone call. I'm not a vi on Simone. And Jelica. Sorry. I had like another phone call. Are we taking a vote on. Yeah. Alicia wanted to move that we remove Adreno. We're not putting it forward as a preferred option and we're taking a vote on that. Yes, I agree with that. is here. One, two, three, four, five, six. One, two, three, four, five, six. We do not have a majority. Simone, Simone, if you are there, you're still on the screen, but we need seven to have a majority. And Sean is no longer with us. Alison is no longer with us. And Paul is no longer with us. We're missing three. Simone, one, two, three, four, five, six. I think I'm right. Am I right, Mike? You're right. So the motion fails. We'll have to come back to it on Monday. So I do appreciate the effort. Mike? Not to extend the meeting, but just in support of the motion from a process perspective. I wonder if that can be the first thing on the agenda? Yes. On Monday, so that, you know, if it was a split vote, I'd feel differently due respect, all due respect to Rupert, but if it was like a fourth, three vote, then perhaps not. But since it was pretty significant, and I think Sean was going down this road at the beginning of the meeting, that if it can be eliminated, because I do think if there's an overwhelming majority of the committee, then we can just take care of it at the beginning. We'll do that. We'll do that right away. We'll set it up that way. Yeah, I do just want to comment to Elisha that although this kind of a matrix is not an MSBA requirement, it is pretty typical to show as a result of the committee's efforts. And as Sean said at the beginning, we will need to complete it eventually. And just from when we did the designer and before that the OPM, they actually watch our tapes of these meetings. So they do monitor us, aside from the words we write. So I think we reached the end of, I thought, a very productive meeting, even if we didn't get to potentially narrow options. I think we do have one less when we start on Monday. And I look forward to seeing everyone next Monday. And Margaret will send this out to everyone, right, Margaret? I will. Angelica noticed that if you try to put a number in, it automatically picks a color and I think Margaret's going to fix that. So to extent that's easier for people, it will be fixed when you get this matrix back. So Elisha, do you have one more comment or is that just leftover? Sorry, that's leftover. And Angelica? I just wanted to ask if it's possible to get that as soon as possible and if it's possible to get it cleaned up by today because I'm going to be traveling so I won't have access to a laptop after Wednesday. I'll send it today. And then I will also be posting it right away then. So thank you all very much and I wish you a great rest of your week, wherever you might be, including the travelers. Thank you. We're adjourned at 10 36. 10 36. Thank you. Got it. Okay. Bye-bye.