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You know, there was a Stanford study that I've quoted many times on the show that talked about how having poor relationships in your life is as bad for your health as smoking something like a pack of cigarettes a day. And this really highlights something. And that is that health is a sphere that encompasses more than just your physical fitness and eating the perfect diet. It's a lot of things. It's almost everything. And if you understand that balance really becomes much more natural and does contribute to your health in a good way. If you were to unpack that, would you say that's all stress related? Or what is it about the poor relationships or the lack thereof that is more detrimental to us than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day? Is it all you think related to stress? Yeah, I would say it's gotta be a big component. Yeah, I would say that and not just that, but let's go in the opposite, right? Think of the value that good relationships bring your life, right? So you're having a challenging time. There are people in your life that you could talk to that will be honest to you that support you, right? If you have bad relationships, you don't have that. You don't have that person or those people to talk to you. Or even if you have a success, you get promoted. I don't know about you guys, but when I'm able to achieve things, it's not really that exciting until I can share it with the people around me that I really care about that really support me. So I think it's a lot of different things, but it does highlight and the reason why I like that study is because, I mean, how many people do you guys know that are fitness fanatics that are so obsessed with eating perfect and exercising that they miss so many opportunities to build good relationships? They don't go to birthday parties. They don't go on vacations or only vacations where they can eat perfect and work out. They don't go to the kids game because that's leg day or I don't go to dinner at my in-laws house because I have to eat the perfect meal or whatever. I knew a lot of people like that in fitness and you're not doing yourself any favors. If anything, you're hurting yourself. I think we see the same thing with actors and actresses and athletes that are great or very, very talented in one area that they just tend to neglect other parts of their life. I don't think it's much different if you got somebody who has this amazing body and they keep it at 5% body year around and their social media sensation with millions of followers and everybody's aspiring to be like them. They're posting and putting out just the best version themselves always and so you just have no idea how out of balance and how potentially unhealthy this beautiful perfect body looks. You see this body and that's just one aspect of health. There's many other aspects to it that we can't see in a glimpse like that and I think it's more often than not when someone is that extreme, when they're that extremely fit, when they train all the time and that consistent, many times other things are out of whack. They sacrifice other parts of their life that are part of the health sphere. I'm thinking of this one study I know that dealt with chimpanzees and they were evaluating basically the chimpanzee that was at the top that would acquire all the food, all the girl chimpanzees had more opportunities to be in the parasympathetic state versus the other chimpanzees that were just constantly not getting their basic needs met. They're just stressed all the time and fighting each other in this hierarchical system where they didn't live as long as the one that had their basic needs met. If that's somewhat related to like having bad relationships, carrying that with you all the time, being in this sort of sympathetic state of like, I got to fight or flight constantly, that may sort of put that added bit of harm to your body. Now where do you think you guys, okay, obviously we're fitness fanatics, right? So like neglecting that part of our lives has probably been less than other aspects. So when you look at the total sphere of health and all the other aspects that make up that bucket, what would you say personally in your life that you tend to neglect or that you were, maybe you've solved that now that we're in our 40s, but maybe in your 20s and early 30s, you were still trying to work on this. Like what other aspects of health do you think maybe that maybe you weren't thinking of it as health back then that you might have been out of balance a little bit, but you obviously were good at training and exercising staying consistent with that. What would you guys say is your area of neglect in the health sphere? I learned that lesson the hard way, didn't I? I mean, I over-trained and over-dieted and took, you know, crazy things and always constantly pushing that. And my body eventually rebelled and I had no choice but to face the music. Now, I'm lucky that my body rebelled in a way that I was able to somewhat recover, but it did. And I was forced and obviously looking back, there were a lot of signs and signals that I had completely ignored. And I think the key really is, you know, if you're training for an event, you're a highly competitive athlete, of course there's a different application of consistency and, you know, sacrifices. But if this is a lifelong pursuit for you, you're going to have to find a way to incorporate balance into your life, otherwise it'll become a stress, otherwise your diet is a stress, your training is a stress. So, and what does balance look like? Balance is probably most of the time you're consistent, probably most of the time you eat healthy, but there's those times when you go out to dinner with your spouse and there's those times when you miss a few workouts, it's not that big of a deal because you're on a vacation and there's other things that are more important. So, that's really what I think this communicates to. You want to achieve a certain epic level of performance, you're going to have to sacrifice certain things, but the average person, the average person watching this is probably thinking, I want to do this forever, like I want to have a lifelong pursuit of this. And I tell you what, you push that limit too hard for too long at some point, like what would happen to me, your body's going to rebel and then you're getting nothing. You have none of the performance and you have none of the balance and now you're dealing with some big problems. I think similarly something that I had to learn later on too is the importance of sleep and recovery in the whole sphere of progress and moving forward and enhancing what I was doing in the gym because of that young mind and thinking that I could take it all on, I could get up and go to work and just make do with just living off caffeine and just trying to keep running, running, running as hard and as fast as I could. But once I started to learn like I had to be more intentional with being able to get quality sleep and be more focused on that to then help actually improve my performance in the gym when I go to work out and also not just stay where I was. I was constantly sort of in the same kind of maintenance progress and I just couldn't move forward because that wasn't a component. Yeah. How about you, Adam? You know, I struggled a lot with the work life or money balance with how fit and healthy I would be. In other words... Like one or the other? Yeah, I used to say that a lot. I used to tell people like if I hadn't seen somebody in a long time and let's say I was in really good shape, I'd say, well, you could always count on me. You could probably get a good guess at where my bank account is based off of how my body looked. So if I looked incredible and in great shape, finances were a little tighter. If I was out of shape at that time, then you knew I was probably crushing it financially. Because I've always controlled my paycheck. Even when I worked for a company like 24 Fitness, much of that I could control with my bonuses and overrides because I had a very baseline salary but then a lot of the money that I made was dictated by how much I worked and effort that I put forth and I always had a really hard time balancing that. I'm really good at getting tunnel vision on goals. Like, okay, this is what I need to do and then forget everything else and just be good at this. And then you come to a point in your life where what happens is you hit that goal and you realize you're unhappy because these other ones have fallen to the wayside and then you go to this direction, hit that goal and then this one fell off and so I like to think that where I'm at in my life now I have finally pieced all of this together like as far as having that. And I think that's just it is having this self-awareness to know. I don't think there's anything wrong with having specific goals that are going to require additional attention towards them knowing that something's got to give and they're going to be a little bit balanced but having enough of this self-awareness to know that, oh wow, it's been this long since I've addressed this or given this attention and Katrina and I talk about that with our relationship. We're pretty good about knowing that, hey, it's been a couple of weeks since we've reconnected ourselves or done that dinner or date night. I used to be really bad with that. If I was super focused on work or physique, then relationship I wasn't so good and I think it's just having a check-in and this is why things like gratitude journals and affirmation and meditation, this is where I think there's tremendous value is that giving yourself that time and space to have no distractions so you can truly evaluate. It's that 10,000-foot view. Yeah, evaluate your goals and make sure that your goals, your life is aligning with the things that you want from it and many times just that check-in itself will help you balance out the other aspects. Yeah, I was just talking to my buddy yesterday. He actually came to visit and he hadn't been in our studio and I'm showing around and he's really into working out and stuff and afterwards he sends me a text and he's like, man, I'm working out and I feel so good in the afternoon. He goes, I normally work out early in the morning, 6 a.m. but now I'm working out at 2 and he goes, I'm way stronger and better performance. He goes, is this normal? I said, oh yeah, most people in the studies will show will perform better sometime in the afternoon and early morning workouts you drop performance. I said, that's totally true for me as well. I get better pumps, I'm stronger, I get better results if I work out around one o'clock and he goes, well, why don't you just work out at one? You go on your own business, why don't you make the time and do that? I said, well, to be honest with you, the other values now, and this I can say this now, it wasn't like this when I was younger, but the other values I get from my workout is more important. The values I get from working out before we podcast, right? It puts me in a really good space. I'm sharper, I'm faster, I feel energized. The fact that it sets my day up and it puts me in a good mood. The fact that it's the first thing I do so when I start with something hard, everything else feels kind of easy. The physical results I get from, I still enjoy, but that's not the number one goal, like it used to be. Now it's more other stuff, so it's more balanced in that sense. Whereas in the past, I would organize my schedule around the perfect time to work out because it was all about my performance. It's not like that anymore. And you know what's funny is that I have more longevity now with it. It's going to be something that, you know, it's part of the evolution of doing something lifelong. If you don't have balance in something or balance with your life, either you become obsessive and orthorexic or along those lines, which is unhealthy, or you drop off and you end up saying, I can't do this, I have to do that, and then you're unbalanced in that direction. But if you find ways to improve the quality of your life overall, like, you know, another example would be tonight I'm going to dinner with my wife and we're going to go to a really nice restaurant and we're probably going to enjoy a couple glasses of wine and, you know, the day after or two days after, my workouts are always not quite as sharp as if I didn't drink alcohol. Now, why am I still going to have some wine? Well, what's more important to me is the loosening up and enjoying my time with my wife tonight, right? So, and that's the balance that I'm kind of talking about. Here's the irony of all of this, right? Is that the long-term success results, all that stuff, is better with balance. Yeah. Not the extreme. And it actually gets easier. It does. It's a lot easier when you learn to do that, like, I mean, it took me a long time to be okay with, you know, stringing three or four days off of not training and just enjoying other aspects without, like, freaking out of, ah, man, I'm fucked up or I've set back. Yeah. Because that causes that, like, on and off the wagon behavior where you just go one extreme the other, oh, I'm off, okay, now I'm off the training, now I'm eating like shit, now I'm doing everything that's not aligned with it. Yeah, it's not worth it to do anything else. And I really had that attitude for a long time and I just, I don't think that way anymore. In fact, I've gotten better about, you know, oh, you know, sometimes I'm really consistent in the gym and everything's flowing that way and I'm getting to eat a ton of calories and then other times, oh, just not. I'm sitting down a lot, I'm not getting to the gym and so I have to adjust my lifestyle according and it doesn't take that much of adjustment, just the mindfulness of, oh, okay, I haven't trained in four or five days, I need to make sure that I'm very conscious of what I'm consuming and it doesn't take a lot of effort and I actually maintain a pretty close physique to where I like and then I know that as soon as I get back on it and five days later, my body responds right away and then I'm right back where I left off versus the pendulum swinging this way and then swinging the other way. You know what's funny about all this too, by the way, is that if you become obsessive with your training, your, what you would consider an ideal physique starts to move further and further away from what is considered healthy and what even the average person likes, right? If you're really into working out, you may see someone at 4% body fat, you know, extreme and be like, that's a great physique. Then if you ask the average person. Keep moving your goalposts. Yeah, then you ask the average person, they'll be like, oh, that doesn't look good. That's like, they're way too sucked up or that doesn't look too good. Like they would look better with a little bit more body fat or that's a little too extreme and it's true. It's like, I remember going to a bodybuilding show for the first time and I was in my 20s and this is when I was really into it and I remember backstage for a moment, looking at everybody's faces, because I was backstage with my buddy, my buddy was competing and I remember looking at everybody's faces, the men and the women and thinking, oh my God, they look, if you just look at their faces, they look really, they look unhealthy because they are, right? They're on stage, the dieting that's required and all that craziness going to the competition. And then I thought about all my clients, my average clients, when I would show them pictures of these extreme physiques, none of them would say, that's amazing. All of them would say, oh, that's too extreme. So the irony really is, if you have balance and real health, you'll objectively will probably look the best to most people. The extremes are what we tend to get obsessed with when we're already in that obsessed state of mind. Well, speaking of extremes, I was listening to a really interesting podcast recently with the guys from the social dilemma and Joe Rogan just had it back on. The movie? Yeah, so the one that was on Netflix? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are familiar with that? It's such a good movie. It's good to talk about the algorithms and the detriments of it in terms of radicalizing people and kind of pushing them into more of the extremes. And I haven't finished the whole thing, it's like three hours, but they got into some interesting topics in terms of where we're at, in terms of two dystopian sort of options of where we're going to go with this and how we're going to be able to kind of wrangle this whole social platform. And they looked at it like from an example of how China's actually dealing with this in terms of actually putting limiters in there with the feed and having these options of where they actually show educational type of material with their form of TikTok. So that way they put limiters and regulations on the way that kids are using it. They're doing a lot of really controlling measures, but they're taking it seriously. This is something that we have to really consider addressing versus on the other end is sort of the chaos. It's going to kind of work itself out, kind of a model. And then there was the third option, which is Taiwan, which they were trying to discuss kind of bringing it back to the whole policymaking and everything of people like seeing both sides and being able to create more transparency with the whole process. Well, this is the scary part of America and being as free as we are is we're most likely to take the path of... We'll figure it out. The chaos path. Yeah, we'll learn by running into the brick wall a few times before we realize we need to go around or climb over it. So I think that's what we have ahead of us. I don't see... I definitely don't see us regulating that and putting restriction... Unless you're at your parent, right? As a household, you might see it, but I don't think that we're going to see policy around that. At least not right now, not until we see some serious consequences for not doing that, which we may see. We may see some stuff come out in the next decade that we go, holy shit. Or we might go all in and you see what's going with the direction we're moving with Metaverse. I'm not sure what this is going to look like. I still stand by my original prediction, which is that I think we are going to divide the country in half, not literally right down the middle, but there's going to be a good portion of people that choose to be plugged in and then there's going to be a good portion of people that want to unplug. And then, of course, you'll have some hybrids of people that have good balance in their life and can go in and out, but I think it's going to be kind of an all-in for a big portion of people on the Metaverse NFT thing. And then I think there's going to be all-in people are like, I want nothing to do with that and then something in the middle. I mean, what do you think? Yeah, I think, you know, so here's the problem. We identify an issue and then we forget that the potential solution is probably going to be worse. And so here's what I mean by that. So it's either you allow the consumer to drive what social media does. There's problems with that, obviously. Consumers don't often make, in my opinion, the best decisions for themselves. I mean, as evidenced by the obesity epidemic, right? So people often make bad choices for themselves, but is the better option to give the government, you know, the power to dictate this power and what they present to you? For example, would I rather have consumers dictate what Facebook and Instagram and Twitter show or the Chinese communist government? I think I'd choose Facebook and Instagram and because that's driven by consumers versus Chinese communist propaganda, for example. And we have our own propaganda. Do I trust our government, which is probably in cahoots with a lot of these companies anyway? Just like I wouldn't trust them to make regulations on food. I wouldn't try, look, I think it's a good idea. I think it would be beneficial if we could kind of help people eat right. Do I trust the people in office to do that? Not even close. It would make things far worse and you don't believe me. Look at all the FDA food pyramid regularly, all the stuff that they recommended. Had you followed their advice, you'd probably be in terrible health. So this is a tough situation. I don't think there's a clear answer, but I do think the answer is not giving less people more power over it. I don't think that's a better option. I really don't. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think the difficulty though is a lot of people are unaware. Yeah. And there's no transparency in terms of, because there's ways that these private companies manage and operate their business. And they sort of have the, they're the ones in control of the keys in terms of introducing even like these foreign troll farms, for instance, that create distrust, that create incendiary inflammatory information that gets spread like wildfire. Dude, that's a big deal. Which is huge. And how do we stop that from happening when your private companies actually encourage it because it creates more engagement with the algorithms, which then has fractured the very country that we all live in. Yeah, look, we have a distinct constitution. It's in our constitution that the federal government's job is to protect our borders. I do think that falls under that. But look, here's the bottom line. It's gonna suck no matter what. If we look at like processed food, for example, processed food really didn't become a big part of Americans diets until probably the 60s and 70s and then it really started to ramp up. And people were aware that if you eat too much and you eat wrong and you don't exercise, you become obese, yet it still happened and it's still growing because we're human, we're not perfect and we can be manipulated by our urges and desires and all that stuff. Social media is doing the same thing. But the alternative probably is worse. So it's like the cat's out of the bag, what do we do? Do we allow the consumer, which is millions of people in America, dictate it, or do we give that power to a few people who we already know are not or corrupt? I don't think we're gonna do that. I don't think we're gonna do that at all. In fact, in using your processed food analogy, I actually think what's gonna end up happening, which is to be really interesting what exactly what it looks like, is it's going to open up an entire new market. It's gonna open up just like there's a market for personal trainers and gyms to help people who over-consume and eat. Totally. There is gonna be a massive market to help people with their social media addiction and virtual reality addiction. I agree, and you know which market's gonna be the leader in that? Health. Yeah, health and fitness. I think we'll see it first. And I'm sure there's already people that are probably smart enough to already be addressing this with clients and stuff. So that's what I predict. I don't think America's gonna come out and do pull a move like China is and put regulation and policy in place. I think we're gonna allow it to unfold and I think there's gonna be a lot of people that self-regulate, just like there's a lot of people out there that know not to over-consume and eat and stay active and they don't need any help and support. And then there's the majority of people and the majority of people who kind of blindly walk through life and don't pay attention to these signals will get sucked into it because it is very powerful and tempting and then that's gonna open a whole new market in space for people to help them. You guys are aware of Orwell and Huxley? Yeah. No, no, what's that? Those two different authors. Yeah. So Orwell was more like 1984, like was Big Brother. Oh, that's why that name is so familiar. That's very much like, you know, sort of I guess comparable to like a China situation. 1984 is eerily predicted. It's like predicted what's happening. That's eerie but also Huxley though, I mean it gets brave new world I think talks about like us being super distracted by excess and you know, us going more into like indulgence in that sort of a direction which is also eerily similar to the future we have. It also talked about like biotechnology and like chemicals being like sort of the impending doom which is also very interesting to kind of go back and see some of these science fiction writers predict like the state of the world. It's like almost you have your World War II kind of post World War II Cold War which happened and then now almost the Huxley and version just is unfolding. Yeah, they were basically philosophers which you know, here's what's I know it's going to be a little controversial but by the way, nothing new. Humans are the same. We're the same as we've been thousands of, for thousands of years. It's cyclical. Yes, our environments have changed but our weaknesses are exactly the same. Yeah, same patterns, same addictions, same habits. No different, okay. So in the past what has been the bulwark against all of this has been spiritual practices. Meditation or religion or philosophy like stoicism for example. So it's to me, it's not a coincidence that the decline in spiritual practices is coinciding with this increase in this abundant overuse and addiction and distraction, right? The solution has to come from there. I think about it like with health and fitness. There's almost a spiritual practice with finding balance in a world where I can eat whatever the hell I want. There's so much food, it's so cheap and if I want I could literally walk zero all day long and not move and be in front of my computer but there's almost a spiritual practice that I have to mold with my fitness practice and my nutrition to make it something that becomes kind of this long term thing and if you talk to anybody who has a good balance with it that's how they communicate it. Spiritual practices are the solution and unfortunately we've become less and less. This is less and less important to us because we think we've solved all of our problems with all the stuff that we've created and it's just not. That's another category of addressing your health holistically. Totally. Just like we opened up the podcast. It's like your relationships, they do have a massive impact and thankfully they have a study out there kind of shows like a comparable effect of smoking that many packs of cigarettes. I'm sure a devoid of spiritual practice has an effect on us as well. Whatever that looks like. We are not far away from people having everything that they pretty much need. We were just talking on the show two things we talked about, the bacteria being able to make food, the 3D printing of houses for under 10 grand. We are not far away. In our lifetime we are going to see housing taken care of for a lot of people that are homeless and the ability to create food out of pretty much almost nothing. The ability to create drugs in your home. It's going to be really interesting when we solve a lot of these things that we think are the massive problem that we all have. Imagine if you took really powerful, what's a really powerful prescription opiate? What would be like a Vicodin or Percocet or Oxycontin? Imagine you took Oxycontin and you went 50,000 years into the past. Going up to people and say, hey, you feel bad and you feel sad. Take this. Oh my God, I feel so good. You've solved all my problems. Have you? We all know what happens when people fall in love with good feelings with drugs. It starts to destroy you. So this is all spiritual practice shit. I'm telling you, look, there's a reason why, and if you talk like Arthur Brooks, he's one of my favorite people. He's an expert on happiness and he says very clearly that challenge, abstinence, things that are hard are part of what make you happy. Anybody who's a parent understands this. Having a kid, 100% makes life harder. 100% makes it more stressful. You don't get as much sleep. You're not going to be able to go out and do what you want as much. You lose a lot of freedom. You probably will wreck your body for a second, especially if you're the one that had the baby. I can list all the stuff that happens to you. But you talk to any good parent and you say, but do you have more meaning in your life and more purpose? Do you find life to mean something different than it did before? Absolutely. Would you trade it? Would you trade, give up your kid to be able to have all the freedom in the world and do all these other things? And most good parents would say never, not in a million years. So how strange is that? Well, we speculated a long time ago that this was the reason for the rise on the obstacle course racing. I mean, think about how weird that is. Just 40 years ago, people would look at you weird for signing up for that. I know. Well, it's the same when they're farming and working really hard jobs and there's gyms. Yeah. Or how about, how about wealthy people who are like, oh, I, you know, my company IPO, I can retire. And what do they do? They go buy a farm and start farming. I know people like this. Like they got cows and chickens and they work eight hours a day on their farm and they're like, oh, this is the life. There's a simple life. It's, I'm telling you, man, it's the spiritual side of things that can be religion. It can be philosophy and it could be other things. And if you don't have that in your life, what you're stuck with is the material world. It will always fail. It's going to fail to deliver. And I'm not, it's not just me talking. I'm not some spiritual guru, by the way. All the scientific studies. You're just wearing the shirt. Show this. Oh, I am. Oh my God. That was perfect. Yeah. But it's, it's super true. You know, you know we're close when homeless guys have got iPhones. You know what I'm saying? You know we're getting close. Did you know that you see that? Did you know that I went to, I, there was a homeless dude a while ago and I pulled over, opened my window and he had, what is that on your phone? What are they on? Cricket? Like, like Square or whatever? The homeless guy. No, he didn't. Yes, he did. No, he didn't. I could have given him money through Square. Like a credit card. You know? That's like Silicon Valley Bum. Yeah. It's got to be like unique. Yeah. It's got to be here, right? People, I get it. People that listen to it from all over the country in the world are got to be going like, that ain't around us. That ain't like that. I've been momy. Several homeless guys that had iPhones, dude. So that's crazy to me. And so that has got to be this sign that we are not far from this, this place of where you're going to have. I mean, Tom, Bill, you said it on our show four or five years ago when we first interviewed him. Anything that can be free will be free. That's right. It's stuck with me is that anything that can be free will be free. And, you know, we really kind of built this business with operating that way thinking like, oh my God, we got to make sure that we are, we're coming first and providing so much good free valuable content because the consumer expects it now. The consumer demands that because so many things can be done for free and shared with so many people. Dude, it's so funny that how like really smart writers really tap into old like human wisdom, like the movie The Matrix, that's a relatively recent movie. I know I'm old, so it's like what, 20 something years old, but relatively recent in the sense that it's not hundreds or thousands of years old. And there's that one scene. I love it where they capture Morpheus and Agent Smith is trying to crack his head, right? Crack his brain so we could get the codes to Zion or whatever. And he explains to them how the original Matrix that the, that the machines created to plug all the humans in was a perfect human utopia. You guys had everything. It was perfect, but we had massive, you know, fields. They call fields of all the people crash because your people rejected it. Yeah, your minds rejected it because you have to have hardship in your life. This is like the human condition. It's like, it's like fitness. I swear to God, this is 100% true. It's part of the purpose formula. If you were fit and shredded and muscular and you got there with no hard work, no discipline, no nothing, you would get a fraction of the benefit as you would get from the work. And fulfillment and joy. All of it. Right. Like you literally the only fraction of the benefit you would get is the fact that, yes. You look good. Which is okay. And I know this is going to sound. Which temporarily would feel good, but then would be fleeting. And also, and I know that people listening to this or watching this who have trouble being consistent won't believe it. Just like trying to tell somebody who wants millions of dollars that that's not going to make them happy. They don't believe until they get there. I'm going to tell you right now, you talked to anybody who's been working out forever. And the look is actually probably less than 5% of the value of exercise and nutrition. It's really not a big deal at all. But just like a poor person who becomes rich, initially it's not that way. Of course. If you work your ass off of obtaining a physique and you finally get to this, this ultimate physique, there's this temporary satisfaction that you have of, oh my God, this is amazing and it feels so good. But it quickly. You go back to baseline. Yeah. It quickly goes away. So again, talking about Arthur Brooks again, who's an expert on this, it works the other way too. So they do studies on people who get like a windfall of money or something crazy happens, right? And they're, I forgot the timeline of something like for two years or a year, they're like happier. And then it goes back down to baseline. It works the other way too. Somebody who has a terrible thing happen to them. Like they lose an arm or, you know, they go paralyzed or something really bad. After a couple years, they come right back up to baseline. So it does work both ways. I think it's so interesting. And if we ignore our human psyche in the pursuit of all this stuff, man, we are totally, you know, totally doomed. Yeah. You know what I mean? You guys, you guys getting ready yet for the holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving, what's everybody got plans got going on right now? Cause you guys done any of your, cause you guys worried about supply chain stuff. You started your shopping at all or anything like that. Black Friday stuff. Yeah. I mean lists. Yeah. Hopefully like we're trying to get ahead, you know, I'm sure everybody's in that sort of mentality of like trying to get their shopping started a little bit early. Well, I mean, obviously is the, this particular shows airing on Black Friday is like the biggest sale, you know, time of the year. Yeah. Then you have cyber one, was it cyber Monday? Yeah. And then we have Caldera and we have Chilli. What are the deals that they're running? Do you know what they're running for Black Friday? I know Caldera Lab has 30% off, which is their best discount of the entire year. Wow. You know, you want to know it's funny of all the partners that we work with. There's two that I went from thinking, like totally thinking, never going to use this product. Caldera, Adam was like big on. And so that's why we brought it on board. I was like, I don't put stuff on my skin. I don't care. It's completely changed my mind. I now use Caldera every single day. I've never used anything on my face that's really made an impact because of oily skin anyway. But it's, We have that. We actually have, all of us are very similar in that I just experienced it first. I just started using it. And I noticed something right away and I thought, Oh, this is kind of crazy. And then I think you guys went through the same process. You just started doing it consistently. And then once you do it just like the juve, you got to do it consistently. You do it one time, you're not going to that and be like, Oh my God, this is crazy. But if you're consistent with it, you really start to see a difference. Well, it's interesting because they kind of market more to men, right? Caldera. There's a lot of women that have it. Dude, my wife stole mine. Courtney Steele mine all the time was the point I'm trying. Like it's like half gone already. But like, she loves it. Yeah. And so why don't they market this more to women? It has a very, I know it has a very masculine look to the bottle and stuff like that. But it has a very neutral like smell to it. It doesn't smell masculine or feminine. And it's got a very nice neutral smell. So, yeah, Katrina really likes it. What's cool about it is it's balancing because the three of us have very different skin, right? You have sometimes psoriasis. Yeah. Justin's more on the dry side and I'm oily. So I thought, Oh, I'm going to put oil on my skin and just get and I've done this before. I'll put stuff on my skin and break out because I'm naturally oily anyway. So I'm like, forget it. It balanced my skin out, right? Justin puts it on and it does the same thing to him. The same thing to you. Yeah. So whatever they treats me. Yeah, whatever they've done has been kind of like they've knocked it out of the out of the park. Did you look up Chili's? Do you know what they're doing or do they not tell us? They didn't tell us anything, but they do have a discount on the website when you go over there. Yeah, so you'll see it on their site. And I know they will. I mean, all of our partners end up having something going on. Speaking of which, now it's getting colder. Now, where you guys are at, you guys are over the hill. Is it? Yeah. Is it warmer than here in San Jose or colder? It's getting cold. Yeah, it's starting to feel the winter coming in. OK. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been running my fireplace every night for the last. So are the wives turning up the heat on the chili? Oh, yeah. No, Katrina's. In fact, I was getting yelled at yesterday because somehow hers got. I think somebody or her or the cleaners unplugged it. And so it disconnected from my app. And so we were climbing in last night. And so I leave the bedroom door open at night to like make the room like ice cold before we get in there. And I don't feel bad because I know her side's 90 something degrees. So the room was like, I like like see your breath cold last night. And we get in there and she was like, I do the same, dude, with the only thing. So both dogs and Courtney's kind of create a bad habit with this when I'm gone and go up to like, you know, trucker, we're on like somewhere for business and, you know, she'll let them kind of come up and sneak up on the bed and sleep. And and so like I like to keep it cold. And so both dogs like find their way up and I'm like kicking Arlo off because he's the big, heavy one. And so I just throw him off the bed like, no, you know, and we still haven't got our king size yet. So I'm like, dude, there's no room for any of this nonsense. A queen? Are you sleeping? Yeah, bro. You can't be sleeping. You haven't seen his place yet. I've been waiting for this place. No, I know I have this picture. He has this little kid bed. So you, OK, you've seen my place, right? You know, I downstairs master bedroom. I think that is. So he's a big master bedroom like that. And he's got this little fucking queen in the middle. It looks so it's embarrassing. It looks so funny. I cannot go massive room. I can't sleep with a partner in a bed. That's anything other than a Cal King. Cal King's wider. Just doesn't work, dude. You're on top of Cal King is the long one. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah. Eastern Eastern King is wider. Well, I mean, that's the one I'm getting. Cal King is wider than a king or it's wider and longer. But then they have an Eastern King, which is even wider, but then it's shorter. That's the one I'm getting. So your little feet. So if you're six foot under an Eastern King isn't bad. But if you're over six foot, you want a Cal King because it gives you a little bit more extension. Jessica and I could not be more different. I'm literally a furnace. So I'm laying in bed and I'm in my little European speedo underwear and I'm just sprawled out. No sheets. Jessica has a bathrobe, pajamas, and is covered in this. And then what she does sometimes is she'll come over and hug me, but it doesn't last very long because she's like, you're just a heater. You're making me sweat and just got to move away. Totally different. So I thought this was just a man thing, but we've got Katrina's dad staying with us right now and he's never been in our place. And he came over. I came home and when I walked in the house, it's like when I got home by like four o'clock or something at 4 30 and I rule in the house. And he's in a, you know, his full daily outfit. And then he has a robe on and hopefully I walk in. It's like 4 30 in the afternoon. He's in my living room with in a robe. I'm like, what, getting ready for bed already? Dad or what to say? Oh, man, you keep it cold in here. I walk over and it's 70 degrees in the house. I'm like, this I'm like, oh my God, now I know where your daughter gets it from for sure. Because Katrina's always, oh, it's so cold in here. I'm like, it's 70. Dude, 70 is not cold. My dad likes the heat as well. I can't stand it. Oh, there's a breakdown to the Cal King. So the Cal Kings actually not as wide as a King. It's just longer. Yeah. No, it's Cal King is four inches wider. No, Cal King is 72 inches wide. 76 inches wide. Yeah, no, a regular King is wider. Where is the Eastern King, Doug? I don't know. Oh yeah, an Eastern King is more like the, well it's even more than the Cal King. I thought the Cal King was wider and longer. I'm totally wrong. That's annoying. That's interesting that it's not, well that's what I need, dude. That it's not longer than a football field. I did not know that. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, the coldest house that I ever stayed in easily was my grandparents. Now, they considered they were poor Sicilians and they came here as immigrants and money was tight. And my grandfather will not put the heater on as long as you can warm yourself with sweaters, jackets and blankets. That's my thing. Dude, literally, bro, I would be there and my grandparents would be, we'd all sit down and watch TV and literally I'd be cold with a blanket. My grandfather would go get your jacket. So we'd be on the couch in our jackets. I'm gonna be an old man like him for sure. I'm always telling Katrina, go put a beanie on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, give me your house. Turn the heater off for God's sake. What am I supposed to wear? A parka. I'd have a parka on in there. And they're still like that. My grandfather's still like that. He'll sit in his lazy boy chair, watch TV and I look downstairs and there he is. You got a jacket and sweats and a hat on. I just, it's like night and day different. That's why, I mean, the reason why Chili has been up there with one of my favorite partners is because the difference of me going to bed and being cool is night and day different. If I am just the slightest bit warm, it throws my sleep off. Heaven forbid, I'm hot. I'm hot, you may as well just, that night's fucked. I'm gonna have a bad night of sleep for sure. So being cold makes a huge difference for me. You notice we get hot though too. It makes me need to get up and go to the bathroom. I got to pee more, I'm restless, I can't get comfortable. You know what I hate? So what I hate was when I'm hot, I'll sweat, right? So I'll sweat and sleep and then I'll get up because I got to pee and now I'm kind of like cool because I had sweat, I was sweating and I'm walking through. And then I go lay down in the bed and it's wet. Yeah, that's gross. Oh, I hate that. That's not comfortable. So Eastern King is what, Doug? What's the difference there? Same as a king. Oh, what? It's exactly the same. They're exactly the same size. So it's marketing. They just labeled it Eastern. Yeah, it's just marketing I guess. Adam got, I mean, you're getting, you got bad information though. Okay, Google, you're wrong, okay? Misinformation. Adam got bamboozled? Potentially. That's some Russian troll. Yeah, that's really, well, you also are showing two different, the last thing you showed us the sizes were different than that too. No, no, they had King and Cal King. This is Eastern King and King. So everything I'm seeing is Eastern King and regular King are exactly the same dimension. Wow, what a, it's pure marketing. Wow. Now there's other, there's other beds that, oh, there's that one up there right there. This one right here? Yes, what does that say? It says exactly what we've been talking about. Oh, really? The King and the Cal King or Eastern King and King. I got, I got cool. It's all the same. There's an, what's an Alaskan King bed? I just saw that. Click on that real quick. It's probably a Cal King for Alaskan Moves. So are anything outside of that, would they be considered like custom? You have to customize it to make it any, like there's bigger beds obviously. Yeah. Whoa, Alaskan. Whoa, look at the size of that. Oh, that's awesome. You fit your whole family on that bed. That's what I'm talking about. Oh yeah, yeah. It's nine feet by nine feet. Oh, that's sick. That's what Paul, hey, that's what Paul Chexleeps on, who's got this two rows. Bro, I'm all about that. No, he divides the women up, dude. He doesn't sleep them together. Oh, he doesn't have them in the same room. No, bro. They have different quarters. They have different quarters and they have different days, I think even. Like he, they've scheduled it to where it's like, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday's with one wife. He's on a whole other level. You know what I predict? You know what I predict with that kind of like lifestyle where you have like more than one wife or whatever? Fucking stressful as shit, he give me. Bro, I predict, that's what I think. I think at first you think, oh, this is cool. I got, you know, two wives. The reality is when you're, you know, not there, they're just, they're working together. Now you're, now it's you two on one. Yes, and two. It's two on one. Well, one of the things I love about Paul Chexleeps, that's different than a lot of those other guys that were, that are into the, you know, open relationships and the multiple wives and some of that. I felt like when I asked Paul about that, he was really honest about it. Like I think he just, I mean, he admittedly obviously loves both of them and they've found a way to make it work. But he gave me that feeling of a, like the look, like if I could go do it all over again, I wouldn't have done it this way. It's more working. Yeah, it wasn't like, like some people play it off, like it's so amazing. It's the most amazing life ever to have these open relationships and multiple wives. And then all of them take a shit. I mean, we, when we first started this podcast, I can think of at least four people that were close to us that were in relationships with us. None of them are in those relationships or they're in turmoil. Let's be honest. Okay. How hard is it to have a long-term forever? One wife, yeah. With one partner, you're gonna throw more people in the mix, more challenges, more changes, more, the only positive is a little bit more variety. The sexual desires, that's it. The sexual desire side is the only side that it is. And let's be honest, like when you've been in a relationship forever, what percentage by the minute, how much time you actually spend doing that of your day and week and month and year is that? I just, I mean, I could just, I just imagine like I come home and, you know, my two or three wives are sitting there like, we need to have a talk. I'm like, oh fuck, all three of you? Yeah, we all decide. I feel like the, I feel like the, the hall pass strategy would be a better strategy if you wanted to go that direction. Instead of like, like if you, I've heard of relationships where people have like an annual one week hall pass, where they give like- It's like the purge? What? Yeah. You've never heard of people doing this? They made like a whole movie on, there was like a movie on this that was like, oh, hey. It was like a comedy, I think. It's February, you know what that means. Don't you? There are people actually doing that though. Okay, look up the movie, I think it's actually called hall pass. And it's actually really funny. It's like Vince Vaughn's here, right? I think so. And the, because the wife is like pitching it, or the, this, Owen Wilson, I know. Yeah, that's who it is. Owen Wilson and the guy from Saturday Night Live. It's really fun. Have you not seen it so? No. Oh, you should, it's hilarious because this guy, one of the, one of the wives says, oh yeah, you should, she's trying to convince this other wife that, you know, to save or help their marriage that she should give him a hall pass. Cause I think he's like drooling over like pictures or like staring at the hot girl. And she's like, and they got into bites or that. She's like, why? Just give him a hall pass. And she's like, are you kidding me? She's like, listen, trust me, I've been doing this for years. Just watch. And so the whole movie is about the guys getting the hall pass, they got this whole week and it's hilarious the way it plays out because they don't ever do anything. You know, they talk a big game. They call all their friends. Of course the girls are the ones that end up getting. Yeah, yeah. Cause yeah. No, no. Obviously. It's a, it's a hilarious. They're all out of the game. Yeah. It's been so long. Oh, I'm going to watch that. If you haven't watched it, it's really fun. Is it really? Yeah. And I've, I've heard of people that do this, that they have this, you know, it's just to, you go off and do your thing. It's like people with their diets. I love a cheat day. Saturday's my cheat day. Well, I mean, I don't know if this would be anything that we'd ever do or I think it would work, but I feel like I would lean towards this strategy before I think I'm just going to like marry two or have that like. And it was low key trying to close right now. If I did anything. I think I've been working on Katrina for that for a long time. It doesn't work. No one makes that happen. That's hilarious. I just want a new flavor. Hey, talk about an ego check though, right? If you get your hall pass, nobody wants to hook up with you. Yeah. I know. Well, that's what would probably happen. Looks like you're the only one that likes me. Most dudes think it's a great idea than they do it. Then the wife ends up hooking up with a bunch of people you don't hook up with nobody and then you're the one who's all insecure about it. Meanwhile, you're the one who wanted to do it. Come on, dude. Women have way more sexual power than men do. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. 100%. Yeah. If there's a hall pass, your wife's going to, she's got to. Cash that in, no problem. Yeah. She's going to cash that in. You're going to be like, oh, I'm going to get all these chicks and you get nothing. You know what's that other movie? There's another movie where the couples all go on a retreat. Yeah. Couples retreat. Couples retreat. Oh, that movie cracked me up. Is that one scene where the dude's getting a massage? He's the yoga instructor, right? And he's kind of putting them through like. And then there's a one guy who's getting a massage. I remember his name. He's the heavier set guy. He was also in the movie. What's that one movie? That's so money. Yeah. Swingers. Swingers. Yeah. He's Mikey. He's the writer. Isn't he the one that writes a lot? Writer, director. Yeah. Didn't he write that? It's Fawn's buddy. I can't read his name right now. Why am I missing? Mandalorian. He wrote a great... What was his name, Doug? You're looking at me like he's got another name. I know. I think Justin knows the name of him. I know the name too. I can't think of a name. Didn't he just write for... What movie was it? Was it Star Wars or something that he was so good? Mandalorian. Mandalorian. There you go. He was excellent. Anyway, I like the scene where he's trying to get a massage. John Farver. John Farver. There you go. And he's trying to like feel out if the massage therapist isn't going to give him a hand job. He's like, oh, you're not just... Real tight right about here. Yeah. I don't know if anyone can release some of that tension. And she's like, come on, dude. You're so stupid, guys. Hey, real quick. Do you like soda but hate the sugar? Do you like the way soda tastes? But you hate the way it makes you look and feel. Well, you got to try ollie pop. So ollie pop are sodas naturally flavored, very low calories, very low calories. And check this out. Good for your gut health. They actually include ingredients that help feed beneficial bacteria in your gut. And again, it tastes like soda. We love ollie pop. Go check them out. Head over to drinkolliepop.com forward slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump for 20% off plus free shipping on your order. All right, here comes the rest of the show. Our first caller is Adam from Wisconsin. Hey, what's up, Adam? How can we help you? Hey guys, thanks for having me on. So I've been lifting for years now, probably since my teen years really seriously. And currently on a strength building program lifting six or so days a week, three of those days are the major lifts, bench, squat and deadlift. And then three of the other days are dedicated to kind of cardio and accessory work. I move a lot around at my job. I'm on my feet quite a bit. And so I probably get 20,000 or so steps a day. Several years ago, I was eating pretty low calorie and have been reversing back up just slowly. And with some weight gain. So right now I'm weighing around 240 pounds. I'm in my late 30s. And I'm reversed back up to 2,500 calories a day. I've been diagnosed with hypothyroidism and my doctor and I've seen a couple of different doctors and got second opinions. They all say my labs are within normal range. And I'm kind of worried that cutting from this current caloric level will be challenging given the context and worried about kind of upping calories without increasing activity will increase weight gain. And again, I've just seen a couple different specialists just kind of running into a wall and don't wanna go out and seek a guru, another guru to answer questions. So I just thought I'd reach out to you all and see what you had in mind. Okay, so it sounds like a bit of a challenging situation. Your body weight's at 240, 38. So you're a big dude, how tall are you? I'm six five. Yes, okay, so you're a pretty big dude, 2,500 calories a day with that much activity and that's too much size, it's really low. You have three options here if you wanna lose weight. One is to move more, second is to eat less. Third is to speed up your metabolism. That's the third option. I would go with the third option. You're already moving so much. You're working out six days a week. I don't think moving more is a good idea. I don't think eating less is a good idea either for a guy your size, that's not very many calories. Now the key with speeding up your metabolism, you have to focus on muscle gain and with the level of activity that you're doing, you're probably doing too much weight. That's what I think. You know, six days a week of resistance training, even though you're doing auxiliary work on the off days is just probably too much. I would bring it down to three days a week, full body resistance training and you're doing 20,000 steps a day naturally anyway. In other words, it's part of your job. Yeah, it's a lot. I don't see any benefit to doing additional cardio unless you wanna improve your endurance and stamina. I don't think that's necessarily a good idea. So I would slowly scale back on the cardio, reduce the resistance training, just focus on three days a week, just try to get stronger and once everything starts to feel good, you see the strength go up, appetite goes up, then you can start to slowly bump your calories again. But I would not wanna cut your calories at what you're at now and I definitely wouldn't wanna increase your activity. Hell no, he's at 25, you wanna, your size, 2,500 calories should be your cut. I mean, we wanna get to, I'd wanna get you to a place where you're- Like over 3,000? Oh yeah, 3,500, 240s, we say 6'5". Yeah, you're not a little guy at all. And that's a low amount of calories to be eating already. So, and what my thing is, if he's doing 20,000 steps, six days a week weight training, plus cardio on top of that, his body is just going and only eating 2,500 calories. It's saying like we have to conserve every bit of calories you give it because it doesn't think you're gonna give it any more food. So I would completely scale back on the cardio, get rid of it all the way. And on the weight training, it would go to an anabolic. So I'd go maps anabolic is what I would run, three days a week full body routine. Now the challenging part is gonna be the mental piece, right? You completely go from six days a week activity, doing cardio, and then you start to slowly, you're not gonna need to increase calories that much at first because the reduced amount of activity hopefully will start to add and build muscle. And I would allow my appetite to dictate kind of how I start to do that. If you do a good job of just scaling back on all this, giving your body recovery, focus on building strength, hopefully in a couple of weeks you right away start to feel the appetite increase and allow that to be the signal that says, okay, let's give myself a couple hundred more calories and then start to slowly bump the calories over time. And then our long-term goal, if you were a client of mine I would say, hey, let's really try and see if we can get you to 3,500 calories and kind of keep your weight about the same, give or take five pounds or so and try and slowly get you up there. And then when we're at 35, if you say, hey, I wanna lean out, then we can go the other direction. Another challenge though, recommending anabolic, those trigger session days, we gotta keep those really low intensity. And I know just having that scheduled in is another day of technically it's a workout, but it's really something to restore and recover. And so if you use it as a way to just stimulate the muscle and get a nice pump, but don't overdo it, don't go overboard with it. Now you also, at the very end, you wrote in here, you didn't say anything, but you wrote on the question, I see you wrote TRT in question, Mark. I definitely would do the advice we're giving first, but I also would recommend joining the free, we opened up the forum for free for everybody and Dr. Ran and his team at the Reginative Sport Medicine they're gonna start coming in and speaking twice a month free and basically doing free live Q and As in there, twice a month starting in December. So you can have access to that, it's absolutely free. So if you have questions around hormones, thyroid, stuff like that, he would be a great person to ask. The forum is called Mind Pump Hormones on Facebook. So it's open for free right now. You know, a hormone panel, which I'm sure you probably did if you're hyperthyroid. So I'm assuming they already tested testosterone. They did, yeah. Do you know what you're, if you do mind me asking what levels you were at? Oh, that's a great question. I don't have it right off the top of my head. The endocrinologist just said it was within the normal range but it was on the low end of the normal range. Yeah, normal range is 300 to 1100. So, you know, who knows, but it's good that you have a baseline. So you could test it again and see where it's at. And, you know, I would, like Adam said, I would leave that for last cause testosterone levels can get, you know, you could lower or raise your testosterone by 30, 40, 50. I've seen people raise or lower it by 50% through lifestyle, you won't double it but 50% increase I've seen before. Usually it's around 20, 30% with lifestyle changes. So, you know, I would take a look at that. Do you have access to MapSentabolic, by the way? I do not, no. Okay, follow that program. That's gonna be the program for you. Follow MapSentabolic, that's the perfect program for what you're looking to do and then allow your body to adapt. Give it a chance to adapt. A guy your size, if you get your body wanting to build muscle, you're gonna be blown away by how much faster your metabolism gets. It's a pretty remarkable change when you get it moving in that direction. Cool, you guys are so awesome. I really appreciate it. That was where my brain was going but it's nice to have that external validation because it's just a, it's the mental game, right? 100%. Yeah, it totally is. And it's counter to the, you know, the mainstream health advice. Like you said, you talk to your doctor who knows very little about exercise and nutrition and they're just gonna tell you, oh, you know, you probably should eat less or move more because that's not really their level of expertise. And yeah, moving more and eating less would definitely get you to lose weight. But boy, would that put you in a tough position at your size, you know? You don't want to be sitting around 1,900 calories maintenance. Yeah, for a six-poor big-ass dude. Yeah, that's real tough, dude, so. Eating less than your girlfriend is. That's like. Yeah, that's tough, so. Yeah, no, we've heard and I've had that conversation. So, yeah, I dig it. All right, so follow MapSentabolic and give it a shot and let us know what happens. Thanks, Adam. Thank you, thanks y'all so much. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day, huh? Thanks, brother. You know, the fact that he's 38 was already thinking that, like I have hope. When I hear this, we get a question like this. Right away, I always go back to like my mindset at 25 and I always wonder, like when we get someone like this, I always question, like if I was 25 and heard the advice from you guys telling me to do that, would I listen to it or I'd just be like, yeah, whatever about it. Cause the truth is it's so hard to get when you're doing this much work. Especially because you're hearing counter crappy information from other influencers and stuff like that. Yeah, and you're motivated. You're motivated to change and you're busting your ass six days a week, moving, lifting, doing all this stuff. He's obviously getting after it but only eating 2,500 calories. It's like, it's a very frustrating place to be in. Yeah, the most, in my opinion, illuminating study that confirms what we've all experienced with our clients, what confirms our anecdotes, our hundreds of anecdotes was a very well done study on the Northern Tanzania tribe, the Hadza tribe who lives like modern, they live like hunter-gatherers. They don't have electricity, they move all the time, they run down their prey when they hunt it. Like extremely active compared to the average person and when they tested these people, their metabolisms were remarkably similar to the average Western couch potato. So that right there just proves how much your metabolism will adapt to a certain types of activity. And what he's doing is he's telling his body to be efficient with calories. Obviously, a guy 240 pounds at six, five. Me, who at 200 pounds, I can maintain and be shredded at 2,500 calories a day. He's 240, six, five. Well, that's what I cut for. That was my cut for a show. So I was- I mean, that's your lowest, lowest calorie. Yeah, yeah. And I would bulk up, so his size, right? 240, we're not that far off, right? He's six, five, I'm six, three. And I'd get up to about 240 pounds, but I would be eating almost 5,000 calories. And then I'd go down to four and then I'd go down to 3,500 and then 3,000. And then literally heading into peak week, like the lowest of lowest calories I'd be at would be 2,500. And that's, I mean, for me, that would have been starving my body for like a week or two. So if that's where he's at currently right now, you do not want to have to try and cut from there. He's going to be miserable, even if he did see a few pounds come off. Our next caller is Becky from Minnesota. What's up, Becky? How can we help you? Hi, so I'm happy to finally get to say hi to you guys. I'm just going to try to keep it short, but basically my question boils down to how to keep cardiovascular endurance during the off season and gain some muscle and strength. I'm just a little background. I've been a long distance runner for about the past 12 years. And I love it. Nothing makes me happier than going for a long run and listening to a podcast. I've done several marathons, half marathons. And in the past three years, I started doing sprint triathlons and the competitive side really came out in me. And I just, I really got competitive in doing them and I loved doing them. And then since about March, when the lockdown began, I started running about seven days a week. I was running about 60 plus miles a week as adding in biking and swimming during the summer months. And due to my high endurance, my triathlon times this past year were excellent just because I had so much endurance and I was able to keep just putting out mileage and going for long distances. But as I get older, I'm 39 and I'm starting to find value in rest and recovery. And I just don't know how to do that with other triathlon training I'm doing and running and wanting to gain strength over the off season. Okay, good question. So, Becky, what you can do is you can actually put a barbell on your back when you're doing all these exercises. You just, she made me exhausted going. I'm just, I'm totally joking. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a few questions that helped me out with advising you, okay? So if you were to rank your endurance training in terms of like how much you value and how much you enjoy on a scale of one to 10, where would it be? Let's just say 10. A 10, a 10. Now, and you gotta be honest, strength training, how much do you value it in terms of while you're doing it, enjoying it and love it on a scale of one to 10? I started out as one. I'm currently probably at an, as far as liking it, I'm at a six, but seeing the results I get when I do it, I'm at like an eight to nine. Okay, how many days a week do you want to exercise? Seven. Okay, so you like to work out seven days a week. All right, I'm gonna have you one day a week do resistance training. That's it. You're gonna get the strength from it. It'll help protect you. The rest of the days you could do what you enjoy. And this is what's really important, Becky, is that we don't want to get stuck in the, I want everything because that's impossible. You have to be honest and say, well, I enjoy this the most. And what I like about, this is what I think I hear from you. What I like about resistance training is how it makes my body feel, the strength, the muscle. While I do it, I don't enjoy it nearly as much, but I like some of the benefits. Well, you're gonna get some of the benefits with one day a week of resistance training. On the other days, you could do the other stuff. I would definitely throw in a mobility day though. I would definitely do one of the endurance days, just focus on mobility. So I was a little confused here. So are we not trying to transition out of all this running and so that, are we? I really like the muscle that I'm building and I feel more confident and I can feel, I have strength trained in the, like more the winter months when I'm inside, I try to get in two days a week of that. But I could also see that really helped my endurance this summer as far as like the biking and the swimming, my swimming time improved and my biking time. And the only thing I did was add in just a little bit more resistance training over the winter. So I guess what I'm asking is that, are we trying to get rid of all the running and marathon? Are we, that's something you... Just how to try to have balance in this off season when it's cold, I'm in Minnesota, so it's cold during the winter. I run early in the morning or later at night, it's cold and it's just, sometimes it'd be nice to just stay in the house and lift weights versus logging all the miles and just build that strength over the winter months. I mean, you could do like a hybrid approach to this, right? We had a question not that long ago where we talked to somebody kind of similar and we were telling them that, yes, I agree, one day a week what Sal is saying, but let's say it's a week where it's so cold, you don't go out and run and do any of your cardio all week long and then that week you could train two or three days in there, but you have to adjust the strength training based off of how much cardio endurance type of training that you're doing or else you're just, you're gonna do too much and then it's counterproductive, so you have to be able to go, okay, this is a week where I'm probably not gonna get out and run very much, therefore I can strength train full body two to three times a week. If it's a week when you're getting out and you're getting these runs in, then I'm with Sal, I would tell you just to do the one day a week, but people like yourself who obviously have a competitive streak and very disciplined, the mistake I think they make when they start to see some of the benefits from strength training is they try and do all of it. They try and be this super athlete as far as endurance, sports, and then they also wanna get really strong and they think that the more that they strength train in addition to all this running they're doing that the stronger they're gonna get and there'll be a tipping point, there'll be a point where the body says nah, you're just asking too much of it and so you have to learn how to balance the two of them and what that looks like is some weeks you're gonna be one day a week of strength training and then maybe other weeks when you completely scale back on all the endurance training and it's cold and you don't wanna get out and do that and you wanna be inside and lift, then you could do two or three days, but I would never go beyond three days of lifting and I would always be between that one to three and I would let my endurance training dictate how much strength training I'm doing. You wanna bolster your endurance training and reinforce your joints. One thing I would recommend and I do love that you're considering strength training, however, I also want you to consider moving in different planes and being able to do things in the frontal plane, the transverse plane, so you're twisting, you're also moving laterally and this is gonna be really important because of all the repetitive stress of you doing the same type of movements going forward in the sagittal plane constantly. This will help to kind of build more longevity support structure around the joints, avoid chronic issues in terms of pain and weaknesses later on. To incorporate that in your strength training I highly suggest. Yeah, Becky, I'm kind of reading between the lines a little bit and I've trained a lot of people like you and in my experience, it's not gonna happen until you start to enjoy it. That's why I'm saying once a week. I think once a week is realistic and here's what I think is gonna happen. If you do it right and you don't over train, you'll eventually wanna do more because you'll really start to enjoy that aspect of it, but forcing yourself to do more of it just cause you like the results, but you hate doing it and you love running so much. That tends to be a failing strategy. Tends to be like, oh, on again, off again type of strategy. You love running so much. So then I would say fine. Not to mention the body's not gonna respond the way you want. If you're running. That's what I was wondering too is with all my endurance training, I feel like maybe if I backed off that a little bit and strength train more, I'd see more. Of course. 100%. Of course. And that's what I mean by you need to be able to do that. You need to be able to listen to Sal only do one day a week because you love your running and you're doing that. But then if there's a week or two where you say, you know what? The next two weeks, I'm really gonna scale back. I don't have any competitions coming up for a while. And I'm just gonna focus on strength training. Nothing wrong with you going to two to three days a week. But I also wouldn't do this. I wouldn't go one day a week strength training. All of a sudden you back off all your endurance training. Then also you go seven days of strength training. That's kind of your personality would probably naturally gravitate to that. And you need to not do that. You don't wanna do that. You're always looking to do the least amount of work to elicit the most amount of change. So for you, it's one day a week. And then if all of a sudden you decide to scale way back on the endurance training, then sure, give yourself two times a week, maybe three max falling like a MAPS anabolic protocol. Just objectively, Becky, the most success I ever had with the triathletes and marathon runners that I train. And these are people that that's what they wanna do. They wanna do well in triathlons. They wanna do well in marathons. I've trained a couple Ironman competitors. That's the priority. And we use resistance training as a way to support that. And it was once a week. We didn't do more than once a week. I would have them do mobility stuff. And that would happen either before or after their runs or their swims or when they would ride. But once a week, the resistance training was the best. I've tried two, three. And with the amount of training that they were doing for their sport, it was just too much. They would have had to back way off on their triathlon training in order to do more resistance training, but then they would have lost performance in the particular sport. So this is the trade-off. That's why I'm saying. Well, also consider an off-season, right? Right, because that's what we're going into now. It's pretty much the off-season. Yeah. So consider the off-season as the way to reinforce and strengthen your body. And you can back off the volume of running and the endurance side of it to really hyper-focus on bolstering your body, strengthening your body, building support around your joints, and then come back into the season. Every athlete needs an off-season to rebuild their body. So you keep doing the same thing over and over again. And inevitably, you're going to run into problems. Yeah, we're going to say, do you have maps performance? Because I feel like that would be the best kind of resistance training program for what you're doing. I do not. OK, we'll send that to you. Now it has three foundational workouts a week in there. Pick one. Pick one of them. And then the mobility sessions. I suggest you do those a few days a week. They're short. You can do it for 15 minutes, maybe as a warm-up or a primer before your endurance training. And I think you'll be good. I really think, unless you cut your running and your cardio down, your endurance training down, more than one day a week of resistance training. Look, I'll tell you what. I'm going to bet that you're probably already a little over-training. So I do run. Yeah, well, I do resistance training three days a week. I run four. And then I do spin twice. Yeah, you're way over-trained, Becky. You could definitely take a beating. I think you've proven that. And that's cutting back. I've cut my mileage in half since the summer. Becky, you're a certified badass. That's what you are. It's tough when you're that badass to scale back. Don't let the badass turn you into a dumbass, though. Don't hurt yourself. It's been so many miles. But you're getting up there in age with us. So you definitely need to. Yeah, I know I'm happy for you, by the way. Thank you. Thanks, Becky. Thanks for calling in. Thank you. Thank you. You know what's funny? The people that do this the most are the late 30s, early 40s clients. I don't know what it is. I think it's that like, I don't know. It's just like the clients that I had that will constantly overdo it or like in that age group. This is starting to really inspire me to write a program. I feel like we get this so much right now. And would I find us consistently advising? And it's funny, right? We're bouncing between, I see flow sessions from hit being amazing. I see mobility sessions from performance being amazing. And then I see foundational days either from anabolic or performance. So if we could build some sort of a hybrid for people that do cardio first, like it'd be like the MAPS cardio program. So if cardio is your endurance training is your first love, how do I blend strength training? And we write some sort of a program that actually, I mean, if we get enough people that reach out after hearing this, maybe we'll do something like that. Because I feel like we answer a lot of questions around this. And giving people a more structured guidance on how we would do that, I think would be helpful. Yeah, it's so, I used to do this. I used to do this in my workouts. I would look at my workouts and be like, you know what? I want more strength endurance. So rather than changing my workout, I would just add it to what I was currently doing. Oh, totally. And I would just add, oh, the sled is good. Throw it on top. Oh, plyo is good. Throw it on top. And it doesn't work that way. You need to back off. It's just way too much. And I used to love getting clients like this because I would, I'd be an asshole and I'd get them to cut way back. And then it would be wonderful because they come back and be like, I'm faster. I'm strong. What the hell is going on? I'm like, well, I told you. Yeah, no, as a trainer, you always would rather have somebody you got to pull the reins. I mean, that's just like, that's in life, right? As employees, I'd rather have the two. I'd rather have somebody I have to pull the reins back than the guy or the girl. I got to constantly be motivating every day because that gets exhausting as a coach is trying to inspire them every day to get up and go do their session. They're just the heart. They're type A. They're type A personality and they think more means more results and it just, it doesn't work that way. So I totally get it. But I feel like we're getting a lot of these questions of people that have endurance supports, but then also want to build muscle and what does that look like? Our next caller is Amanda from Washington. Hi, Amanda. How can we help you? Hi, guys. I have kind of an interesting story I feel like. About six weeks ago, I came back from a six week long training with the army and I lost a good amount of weight with that, probably 10 pounds and I started out at 134. So 10 pounds less than that. And I didn't actually get to finish the training. So I want to go back. I have unfinished business, but because of that weight loss, when I try again, I want to have a lot more weight, mostly muscle and I don't care if some of it's fat too. I just need to make sure I can still keep my run time up for this training and then just maybe gain some more stability and durability. Because another thing I noticed with this training was my knees got quite inflamed. We did a lot of kneeling with our rex sax on and I've been doing maps performance and I've been back for six weeks and I could just now do walking lunges again to touch my knee to the floor. So it's been a long road of trying to heal up. But like I said, I want to try again. I'm pretty committed to it. But I want to see what you guys have to say for making it a little safer. OK, so you want to get a good run time and you want to continue to build muscle. What's the run time specifically? Like what are you looking to maintain? So right now, my run isn't a problem. I need to do a 40 minute five miler. So it's just eight minutes a mile. OK. And that's fairly easy for me right now. I could do a 37 minute just even if I was sick. So just that up. OK, so you want to keep you want to be able to maintain under 40 minute five mile run, but you also want to build muscle and strength. Yeah, OK, you could you could probably maintain that with by doing that particular run twice a week. Yeah, twice a week. Once or twice, you know, twice a week. I would do the five mile run and then twice a week I would do or maybe three days, but probably twice I would do heavy lifting and I would increase calories, make sure your protein intake is really high. And that should be the right recipe. I don't think you're going to lose your run time if you maintain those two days a week. And that leaves enough room for you to do a resistance training program that'll help you build muscle. I think performance is perfect. You mentioned knee inflammation. You got to maintain some of that agility and that mobility. You will build muscle on mass performance. It is not a it is definitely a muscle building program. It's just muscle building in a functional way. And I think that's what you need. So I'd stay on mass performance and then try what I said. I think you could even do. I think if I were to do the running, I would go three days a week, but it would look like this. One mile on one day, that's it. So just one mile fast, which is take you seven minutes to eight minutes. Another day in there, it would be half the total mileage and then only one day a week would it be full. So you're not running that much. And then what Sal said with mass performance, in conjunction with those, you should be able to keep your time solid on that. And then most of the programming is focused around building muscle. And I would toggle you back and forth between two days a week and three days a week, completely based off of how you're feeling. So if you're feeling great and body's responding and we don't have any sort of achiness, I'd let you train three days a week. If a week came through and you're like, oh, I'm really tight, I'm stiff, I'd scale you back to two, but then I would put emphasis on the mobility sessions on those days and that's where we'd spend more of our time. Okay. With the knee inflammation, would you guys recommend like stepping back, doing some more like weighted lunges and trying to like increase the strength in my knees or would that like- What do you think is aggravating you right now? I think like assessing that would help a lot. Like, you know, with our prime program, I know we have a couple of different tests that kind of work your way through that, whether it's, you know, a tracking issue, whether it's an ankle or a hip, you know, derived issue. It sounds like it might be from you getting on your knees. Was it the kneeling, the running or the exercise? The knee over the toe kind of- Yeah, it was kneeling with a 70 pound rucksack. That's like something you just get used to or if it's like, okay, that's just gonna suck for a while. Yeah, there's nothing, I mean, there's not much you can do to prevent that aside from working on strength and mobility and your ankles and hips, that might help with how you kneel, but it sounds like the inflammation is from the actual pressure of the floor. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, so that's a little different, right? That's gonna be, that means, you know, stop doing that, I guess, to help with the inflammation, but if that's what you're required to do, then I would still work on mobility because the less tightness you have overall, probably the less painful it'll be to kneel down. No, there's some good points to that, right? I mean, the more mobile you're gonna be in your hips and ankles, the more you can rely on actually the muscles supporting and so you're not actually just resting all your weight on the joint. So maybe what happens right now when you get down on the knee, you like completely are at rest and you let all your weight go straight to the patella where maybe if you have good ankle mobility, good hip mobility and good strength in your lower body, you keep your muscles tense in that position so they alleviate a little bit of pressure. You're adding incorporate something like a Turkish getup as well so you can kind of get up and down off your knee from the floor, weighted. So really try to like work on the skill of that and be able to activate your muscles properly to help support your joints in that position. Oh, that's great, awesome. Am I reading this correctly? Are you trying to become an army ranger? Is that correct? Yeah, well, it's a little different going to the ranger leadership course versus going through assessment and selection. So this is anything or the army's premier leadership course. You get a tab. So I would have something on my uniform but I wouldn't be a forward operator shooting bad guys. Still awesome. Yeah, this is like, I think there's a theme today, right? A woman badass day. I've had quite a few of you guys do this. Trying to be, trying to be. Well, I know. So you said you have mass performance. Justin brought up maps prime. Do you have maps prime? Because if not, we'll send it over to you. I have performance in prime. All right, you're set then. Smart, smart one. The best hold myself then. Yeah, you're set then, Amanda. Just do those things. I think you'll be okay. Good, and I want to thank Adam to his pushup video on YouTube. I started out doing my perfect pushups and only being able to do three and by the time a year later after working on the suggestions that he made, I got 52 perfect pushups. Wow. That's 50 more pushups than Adam could do. Mark that up there. He kept it at 317 Sal 4. So we're doing good here. Maybe he's made that up at middle school. Thanks for calling me. Thank you, Amanda. Yeah, thank you guys so much. You know, a note here, what it takes to maintain a certain level of performance is a lot less than what it takes to get. So if you're already, like in this example when we were talking to Amanda, she can already run a sub 40 minute, five miles, right? She said 37 minutes easy when she's sick. You don't need a lot to maintain that, right? Same thing with strength. That's why I thought only even one day of doing the full run and then half of the run on another day and then only a one mile the other day. So you're talking about seven minutes on one day she actually sprints what another 14 to 20 something minutes on another day. And then only one day as she hit in that 35, 40 minute. Just to maintain this. And she'll actually probably see she might improve a little bit from that. So easily maintain that. And then with two or three days of strength training she should be able to put on some good muscle. Our next caller is Will from Tennessee. Hey, what's up, Will? How can we help you? Will. Hey fellas, how are you? Good man. I'd like to say thank you. I appreciate what you do. Your platform, your information is amazing. I actually got hooked on your podcast. Well, you were on the order of man podcast and that's where I kind of gone on to you. But anyways, just had to give a shout out to Ryan Nicler over there. My question is really my goals. I've got a five year old son. I wanna be as strong and as agile for him as possible. Been listening to you. I've got a three day a week full body routine going pretty consistent. Haven't worked in any trigger sessions yet. At the moment I'm building a deadlift platform for my home. And I guess my question to you is is there any benefit in making it possible to do deficit deadlifts on that platform? Yeah, there's some good value in deficit deadlifts especially if you're sticking point is at the bottom of a deadlift. Now one caveat is you need to have the mobility and the technique to do it because if you're tight and your ankle mobility isn't that great or you start to round your back just to be able to go down low enough to do a deficit deadlift, you're increasing your risk of injury quite a bit. There's also another way of doing these. So one way is to stand on a platform. It allows you to still use the 45 especially if you're real strong still stack the 45s on your side. If you're not lifting more than a couple of hundred pounds on a deficit deadlift you could also just put 35s on it or 25s and now it's just lower to the floor and you don't need to stand on anything in order to elevate yourself. But if you're using the big plates obviously you don't wanna put you can't fit 15, 25s on your side then I would use a platform. And the way that I would program it is I would do my normal workouts and if you have the prerequisite mobility then one workout I would focus on deficit deads and then maybe at the end of the workout I would do a couple sets of traditional off the floor type deadlifts. To be clear though, I mean, based off of what you kind of said real quick and I don't know how deep we can get into your goals but I mean, if it's more about being a dad and being strong and being mobile you're not missing a tremendous if you're not. I mean, you could do without a ramp. Yeah, exactly. In fact, I would love to see you doing like a maps performance type of program. I mean, it sounds like your goals are really similar to kind of where my goals are in my life right now. I really don't care about being the buffest dude right now or getting on stage or anything crazy like that. I really wanna be able to keep up with my son. I wanna be strong. I wanna be able to get down and squat in the squatted position and play with him and not feel like my back's on fire or my knees are killing me. And so if you align with that then actually like a maps performance type of program where you got good strength training foundational days three days a week and then you're working on a lot of your mobility, I think you'll get the biggest bang from your butt. And that doesn't mean that you, I wouldn't have you also deadlift and then follow like an anabolic program. But I think- Well, we put deadlifts in performance too, especially in phase one, right? Yeah, yeah. No, it's in there. And I do think there's value in deficit deadlifts but just use it as like a completely different exercise. So this is something like you wanna reduce the weight substantially until you feel like you really have control over that at the bottom part because and two, this is gonna help with those functional goals as well because you are gonna be in positions where you're bending over substantially and it's gonna help to give you like strength where you need it in compromising type positions, which is ideal. But to Adam's point, in terms of like a lot of more different relatable, translatable kind of functional moves, like you're gonna get that in performance a bit more. Yeah, you know, Will, I know there's a lot of like specific strength athletes like powerlifters that really, they relatively regularly program deficit deadlifts into their programs. And remember, these are powerlifters and their goal is to get as strong as possible in three lifts. Now, if you're just looking for overall strength and muscle and balance, because powerlifting can be sometimes, oftentimes a very unbalanced sport. It's all in one plane, right? Then deficit deads, like I personally, I do deficit deadlifts maybe a few times a year and to give you an idea of how much weight I'll use on it, if I'm doing singles with 500 or 520 pounds, I'm not going above 300 pounds on a deficit dead. So what Justin said is 100% accurate. It's you're treating it like range of motion, staying connected, not necessarily like your deadlift where you're pushing the weight. Very similar to if your goal is to get more depth in your squat, right? And I think that's a valuable goal to have because it does set you up for success when you're in those types of positions to generate force and strength in some of those more difficult positions. So I find value in deficit deadlift. I find value in really getting depth in your squat. Just make sure you're really treating them with respect and lightning the load substantially. Yeah, the key really is to take care of all the prerequisites first before you do that, not the other way around, right? So that's a great example, Justin, is it's just like the pursuit of getting a deeper squat. But the way like I got a deeper squat was working on my ankle and hip mobility first. And then I would change that challenge my range of motion with lighter weight. Okay, good, I'm getting a little bit deeper in my squat. Go back, a lot of focus on mobility. Test it again on deeper squat. That's kind of how I would handle these deficit deads is I would apply the mobility work that we have in performance every once in a while on your deadlift day, decided to do them light and on deficit dead to see how your form is and how it feels and to keep challenging it like that and use it more as a gauge of am I getting better range of motion in my deadlifts than it is like, you know, trying to really do it like you see the power lifter is doing it. You have totally different goals. And I'm with Sal. I mean, I haven't done deficit deadlifts in probably three or four years. So when I was doing it, it was purely because I was trying to get a stronger deadlift. I wanted to get my numbers up. I had different goals back then. So just keep that in mind. Yeah, if you don't have mass performance, by the way, we'll send that over to you, Will. Oh, that's awesome. Thank you. I appreciate that very much. No problem. Thanks for listening to the show. Yeah. Thank you, fellas. I appreciate your input and your honesty and love what you're doing. Thank you. You got it. Thanks, Will. Yeah, I think this highlights something important about advanced variations in lifts or advanced techniques like bands and chains and partial reps and negatives and deficit lifts and floor presses and all valuable. Okay, I want to be very clear. All valuable, all could provide value, improve your strength and mobility, but they're not the bread and butter. They really are not the bread and butter and many of them require lots of preparation before you go and attempt them. And I've seen way too many times, somebody go and, for example, try to do deficit deadlifts and I watch their form. Your back is rounding. Yeah, and I'm like, not only is that not good technique, but you probably should be practicing no weight because that four inch difference, it doesn't seem like much, but it is, especially if you always train in one particular range of motion. I think where this happens or where people, like why this becomes a good question or why we get asked this question is you are wanting to get stronger in your deadlift and you come across someone's page. Some of these videos inspire. Yeah, exactly, and they're touting how great deficit deadlifts. And you're like, oh, I want to get good at deadlifts. And so, and if this has helped this person out and they're qualified, smart, whatever, or really strong, should I do it? And it's like, you know, you can get a really strong deadlift and do other things that are more valuable to your specific goals without having to do that too. I think that's the misconception is that, oh, well, I should do that too. Well, it really depends. And if he was a client of mine, I'd really want to dive into like his goals. Like when he mentioned that about his son, I'm like, okay, you want to get stronger in your deadlift. We can work on that, no problem. And we can never do deficit deads and be fine with that. You also want to be mobile and you want to be able to play with your son. That's another major goal of yours. Okay, well, let's work on mobility and that be the primary focus. We'll get stronger in your deadlift along the way. We'll also get to a place where you comfortably can do deficit deadlifts. I really like what Justin said about treating it like a new exercise. If you train in this 12 inch range of motion and that's how you constantly get stronger and stronger and stronger, there's some carryover to outside of that range of motion but the more you move outside that range of motion, the faster it diminishes to the point where a lot of that strength means almost nothing. Unfamiliar territory. In fact, I'll tell you what, I've trained a lot of runners who have decent stability and stamina in that running range of motion. You bring them below that and they completely fall apart because they never train in that range of motion. This will happen to you too when you resistance train. If you train and you squat to parallel and you built up a really good squat and you've moved up to 400 pounds or whatever and you're doing great and then you think, you know what, I'm gonna try going four inches lower. So let me lighten the load. Let me go 50 pounds down from my normal weight because 50 pounds is a lot. Not nearly enough of a cut in weight. No joke, I would go down 70% and focus on connecting because the risk of injury goes up so much because you are now training in a range of motion that you really never train in. Yeah, and to make sure you have that range of motion and go through the mobility of that first, obviously as a prerequisite, it's important. I would even probably prioritize unilateral training before I would even go into the deficit deadlift. If he was the focus more on that. Single leg deadlift off the floor. Right, because I mean most, the issues of strength is instability. And so to be able to kind of reinforce that by adding just like unilateral focus, I think would go much further. I 100% agree, and that's what I mean. I feel like for his goals, what he's really trying to do. There's other stuff that's more important. There's many things that he could be doing that not only will he get good at his desired outcome of increasing his deadlift strength and mobility that are gonna benefit him a lot more than just doing deficit deadlifts. Look, if you like our information, you're gonna love mindpumpfree.com. We have lots of free content, free guides written specifically for our audience that'll help you with almost any fitness goal. Again, it's mindpumpfree.com. You can also find all of us on Instagram. So Justin is at Mind Pump Justin. I am at Mind Pump Salon. Adam is at Mind Pump Adam.