 Alright, so before we start, my name is Jeremy, I'm with Office Zero which is an identity authentication company. How many of you here are currently like full-time developers? Okay, so a couple. How many are kind of hobbyist developers you enjoy, you know, getting, you know, doing? Okay. How many of you are like community managers or, okay, so some of those, how many would classify yourselves as like a developer advocate or a developer evangelist or in developer relations or anything along those lines? Okay, so we are going to talk in this talk, we are going to, so we're going to talk about developer relations and as the fingers so nicely point up and I just had to have, I just had a mental thing to make sure that I used the right finger in the emoji, didn't realize. So yes, it is the right finger, going up the dev rel is like coffee. Probably as you all confused right now, you'll hopefully not be confused at the end. So, developer relations, we'll talk about what it means, we'll talk about how what coffee is, we're gonna bring it all together at the end into some formations of how you can, you know, when your current jobs and what you're doing actually contribute to developer relations, whether you're a developer, whether you are a community or whether you are just a hobbyist and you're looking to get into dev rel, we'll talk a little bit about that. So, we'll start with the story. So back in, so the years 2008, this is, so that would be 11 years from now, I didn't graduate from primary school and know that, you know, that's about 11 years. My wife and I at this time have three kids, obviously she's the better looking one on the left, we have three kids, two full-time jobs and we just bought a coffee shop. Nobody said that I was ever the smartest one in the bunch. But that was us, in 2008, all of those things were going for us. As we bought it over the next kind of, next two years, we really kind of embarked on this journey. We built the shop from being a shop that was very exclusive where you walked in and if you didn't know the owner and if you didn't, you know, fit within her people group, is probably the easiest way of saying it, you were kind of left on the outside. It wasn't very welcoming. So when we came in, it took us two years, we rebuilt the entire shop to being very inclusive. It was very bright, vibrant, it was growing prior to that. It had been going downhill and we started educating people on what coffee was, started talking about how that you could improve your morning with a good cup of coffee or your afternoon or your evening depending on if you're one of those like me that drinks coffee throughout the day or if you're one's like, you know, my wife or others that before you even open your eyes, you have to have an idea, the infusion of coffee, understanding what coffee was and helping to educate people. We also began to build relationships with those that were coming into the shop on a regular basis and even some of those relationships, so that was, so view the map, that was, it was two years later, 2010, we were building relationships, some that even exist, still continue to exist. So nine years later, you know, we no longer have the shop, I still have relationships with some of the people that were coming into the shop on a regular basis. So those who just stopped in when we were talking about coffee, we were talking about both relations, how they mix and what we may be confused with at this moment, give a lot of them together hopefully at the end. Otherwise, I'll just leave and take my coffee with me. So, it was also, you know, so as we were building those relationships, it also kind of helped, I started to kind of see how developer relations and how building communities started to really mix with some of our experience with having a coffee shop. So I had spent years in developer, how many here have ever seen one of those? Okay, it's actually a fair amount. How many have ever actually touched one? The only half of those, put their hands up. How many, I was gonna say, how many know what brand it is, and then it says, sorry, that's the Atari 800 XL. That was my first foray into computers. That was in mid 80s, I'd have to double check the dates for myself, but it's the same early to mid 80s is when I got my hands on on one of these through a nice thing that just happened to send one. And that launched me on this career thing off because that was many, many years ago, when I actually had the full hair hair, as opposed to nice. But before I was 13, I was doing development on basic. That's all you really could do on the basic programming. The cartridge goes in the top, you play games, or you can really wasn't much you can do with it in today's standards. But back then it was amazing what you do building basic programs. And I was also involved in communities. How many of you have ever been on the bulletin board? Or remember what a BBS stands for back in back in the 80s, right? That was the online back then that was how you, you know, you can get games, you can play games, you could talk with people that either were in your city or have to have called in from, you know, anywhere in the world was an amazing opportunity. But this was still when they were in their fledgling kind of state, but they weren't online community part of them for many different years. But it wasn't until, you know, probably the last 10, 10, 15 years that I really kind of started to connect the dots with what was driving developers in what drives communities and how they how they get together. And what was this thing that eventually would be called developer relations developer relations itself. Did not like the first online example of that word being used developer relations itself is was February third 2000. Portland, how many of you guys know what, know what the company, Portland, or, so again, was purchased. But they were an up and coming tech company for many years. They actually had a department of developer relations. And even prior to 2000 had been doing that stuff. But it was not, you know, that firm does not really appear on the internet itself until February third 2000. It's in now we've seen companies like Google and pretty much any company that has a has a tech product or has something that developers want to use or that they want developers to use. They have some form of developer relations. defining kind of what that is, other than that kind of becomes he said, she said, Google has a way that they do it Amazon has the way that they do it. You know, red hat has a way like everybody has a different way of how they do it. And it's all about how it fits into their the construct of their company and how that they're what their product is and how their their processes are and how they need to, you know, evangelize or spread the good moves around that product. But the purposes of kind of what I'm reading here, there's a lot of this understanding purposes of this here, we're going to find developer relations as relationships with developers. It's not really all that flashy. It's definitely not eloquent. So there is another another way a good friend of mine, Mary Tangball. Some of you may know she is she has written a great book on developer relations with the business value of developer relations can be. She defines it in a much better way of building relationships with the developer. And what I really like about this is that opposed to my terrible attempt at a real name job, it really kind of says, it encompasses so many things about meetups. It's not sorry, so many things about the different activities you do. It doesn't say that you have to do XYZ in order to build relations with the community or with developers. It can be anything from meetup conferences, it can be events, it can be having an open, you know, having office hours where they come in and they can, you know, meet with some of your engineers, it can be podcasts, it can be anything encompasses building relations. If you're out there building relationships with developers, you're doing developer relations in some form. So back to kind of this coffee shop endeavor. So the person that we bought the coffee shop from, she had she started five years prior to when we bought it. And it had grown and been really embedded in that community. But she did it as, you know, she had a she had a daughter that was in high school. She wanted to connect reconnect with her daughter a little bit more. Daughter was going to be going to a little community college. And so she's like, you know what, I'm gonna start a coffee shop. That'll bring me closer to my daughter. Fast forward five years, the daughter has now left and gone off to bigger state college. And other daughters have moved on and now she's left holding this coffee shop. And as a result, it just went downhill. So she was decreasing motivation and all that. So when she came in kind of came to us and said, you know, I would have been in there. She said, Hey, you want it? We jumped on the idea. But because she wasn't really devoted to it, or wasn't really involved in it anymore, there started to be this, I say, decreasing motivation. She took kind of an authoritarian view kind of she was a mother. And so she decided that anyone that came into the coffee shop was going to be mothered. And whether they wanted to or not, she was going to mother them. How many of you know a mother like that, that says I, it doesn't matter, I'm going to mother you that was her. So she literally would have this whole thing, if you didn't do things in the coffee shop, whether you're an employee or somebody in the coffee shop, this was the view that she had shame on you. How dare you use such a thing. She even had signs that she put up there. And when we walked in, one of the first things we got rid of, but it was this big sign that he said, it was kind of like the 10 commandments of being a good customer, which already everybody's got things like you couldn't have outside food or drink, which on the out, you know, on the premise sounds okay. But if you were in the shop for more than an hour, you had to be able to produce a receipt that you had bought something or else you would tell you to leave. She would put little, she said no watering, which watering is just hanging around. But it's a coffee shop, you're supposed to kind of hang around. But that was that was the thing that she did. She kept this authoritarian view. And what she had done is she created this environment, where everybody felt like they weren't matching up. That no one felt welcome unless you were part I said of her inner circle. And all of these different rules and many of those were unwritten rules, too, that she would if you didn't fit what she wanted to do, she she would, you know, tell you to leave. See what it ended up happening is just was not a good welcoming environment. So, you know, there are all sorts of rules. And often that there was that steep path that you had to get part of the inner circle, and you didn't know how, which brings me to a principle around successful developer relations, ruthlessly eliminate any barrier that keeps you from building a relationship with your target audience, and then with you. This may require that you revamp your onboarding for your community, whether it's it's to join up to be part of the community, or even to join up to be part of your product. If you have a developer product, you may need to revamp the onboarding. Maybe it's that's keeping them from getting involved revamping that revising the messaging you're using. Make your free tier for a bit. You make it a bit more usable, add more features. Instead of it be a free for two, two weeks, maybe it's a free for life. You might need to revamp your website. And hopefully, there's a lot of websites that need to be revamped, but that might be that might be one thing it's keeping the developer from getting involved is your website. Or even revamping your target audience. It may be that the people that you're trying to reach out to are not the people that you need to, you might need to do that. But ruthlessly eliminate any of the barriers that keep them from getting for building a relationship. But it's it's important to do that. And if you don't, you're going to find yourself going around around in circles, not really getting who you want to be. And they're not going to be there because if they're not using your product, kind of lost. So what does this have to do with coffee? Or what does this have to do with that route? This coffee has to do with their own. Good thing you asked. Imagine you walk into your local coffee shop. And to be clear, I don't mean like, like char bucks. I mean, like an actual actual coffee shop like what we have that's here, who they it's the rebel being that that would be like an independent kind of locally owned coffee shop, not the char bucks. And I won't call char bucks by their real name. We'll get to that. But so when you say you walk into that locally owned independent shop, what are some of the things that you experience? Anyone want to? What sounds seems unique? Yeah, friendly. Okay. What do you smell? You smoke coffee? What? What do you hear your music? Okay, anything else? People talking? Yeah. What else do you see? To be comfortable? Yes, comfortable. Often you see people kind of sitting around tables sometimes talking with each other. You mentioned that. You see them around tables working. Some people are working. I go instead of a coffee shop and work for hours. Sometimes I like, while I'm there, I see people that are having conversations. Excuse me. Sorry. You're going to smell freshly ground coffee. That's a, you know, an important piece, as opposed to just, you know, stuff that's already ground and you put them filter. It's a different type of environment. All of these things sound the machines, you know, the grinders, you have the expression machine happening, you have different sounds that are tapping and banging on things. All of those are creating an environment that's familiar to you and to those that that are there. But what, what is it that kind of stands out about all of those things? The environment, the environment that's created within a coffee shop. It's interacting with multiple senses at the same time, starting to prepare you for what will hopefully be a good cup of coffee, a good experience. All of that is part of that environment. And the same thing goes for Deverell. It shouldn't be any different. All of those things should be working together. So obviously, the same way you create a positive environment in a coffee shop is also the same way that you would do it with Deverell. Deverell exists to build relationships with developers. And if you're not doing that, not building those relationships, then you, you as a product aren't going to exist, or someone else is going to do it better than you. So if you think about your coffee shop as a Deverell program, the baristas as the team, coffee as your product, the expression machine, the tools that those as kind of like the tools that you use that you offer as your, as your product, all of those things kind of work together, or sometimes they don't and there's a result of that. But all of those things working together can influence the perception of your company, perception of your community, perception of your product, positive or negative, and just like a good cup of coffee can make or break a coffee shop, it can make or break your company, or the perceptions of your company because this is the same perception dictates reality and it's true. So early in our coffee shop adventure, one of the things that really kind of started to notice is a lot of people would come in and we would have that we used to have this big board and this isn't the exact one I'd lost all the some of my pictures, but we had a big board that had all of the menu on it and it was it was it's not as big as the screen but it was a big board and it had everything you could imagine on there. And when they would first walk in, started to hear a phrase, you would first see on their on their look about as a blank of expressions you could get and then you then it would go to a confused look of like, and then eventually you would say, Hey, what can I get for you? And invariably, their comment would be if they didn't already know what they wanted, their comment would be, I'll just have a cup of coffee. And the photo coffee shop patron, that's the thing. And that was that was their statement. It was just, okay, I'm just gonna have a cup of coffee. But they had spent time looking. And then they just decided to have a cup of coffee. And after hearing that comment a bunch of times, I'll just have what it started to say to me was it was kind of a resignation to the fact that all of this information they were getting, they couldn't process it, didn't know what was maybe we were using words that they didn't know what they were. And, you know, every shop uses a little bit different. So maybe they weren't familiar with it. And it didn't help them understand the menu of how they could choose. And so that answer that they would give meant that they weren't engaging with what we were trying to give them. Excuse me. And so, instead of engaging with the barista myself or anyone else that was there, we would just hear them say, I'll just have a cup of coffee. And we didn't have that opportunity to engage with them. So after, you know, hearing that a number of times, I started to kind of in ask that question, the next question of Okay, what do you normally order? You know, sometimes they were new. And if we hadn't seen it before, we would have that conversation. You know, Oh, well, I go to so and so or I go to char bucks. And I am used to this. And then we could, you know, say, Okay, well, here, that is here or here. That doesn't exist because that's a terrible thing. You should never choose that. We never said that too often. But we invited them into the conversation of what is it that you're looking for finding out what their needs in what they're what their mood was. What are the what are the things that influence them? Obviously, they wanted a cup of coffee or some wanted a cup of tea, and they didn't see tea on the menu, but they wanted something. They just weren't quite sure what it was, or they didn't know if we could provide it. And so it was during getting those answers that often got to the bottom of what their their motivations were, and what need they were trying to to fill. And then I was able to shape an experience for them that fit to what they wanted. So it also gave me an opportunity to educate them on what coffee was, educate them on the process, educate them on, you know, why this is better, why blends are not as good as a single origin coffee, why it's better to get you know, depending on what their likes and dislikes were around coffee, why they could probably enjoy something from South America, as opposed to something from Kenya, why dark like all of the different facets, we could help them understand that once we understood what it was that they were desiring. And that's where my passion for, for coffee would really start to come out. See, I finally resigned myself to the fact that I was a coffee snob. It took a while. My wife would say, you're a coffee snob. And I would say, No, I'm not. And she would just roll her eyes. And if you spend any time around me, you understand that the rolling eyes is something I usually get. So I she helped me get used to it. But I did finally come to the grips that I really enjoyed coffee. I really enjoyed everything that that it it's not just something you brew. It's something you experience. And that first for a and a coffee for me. And what that meant was I was probably about 12. I don't I don't know the exact age was probably about 12. My dad worked at a car dealership. And I was able to go and make some money at their car dealership by sorting paperwork. It's terrible. But I got paid $5 an hour to do it $5 an hour. And at age 12, that was fantastic. I could spend it on anything I wanted. But it was cold one day. And I decided I'm gonna have some coffee. And I took a sip of it. And it was not I mean, it probably rivaled char bucks. But at 12 I didn't really know what that was. And it was terrible. It was sludge, you know, it was it was thick. It was gross, everything. And so I had to add all of the, you know, I saw what everyone else was doing. They're pouring the milk in there pouring the sugar and they'd start pouring that they'd look back and then they still pour like that was what they did. So I did that. And it still didn't taste great. But I felt like, Oh, well, that's just what it is. And so, you know, I had to do those things to make it even palatable. But I felt like that's, that's just what it was. Everybody else drinks this horrible crap. Why not me? That didn't last very long because it caffeine has never done anything for me for good or bad. And so it was just like, okay, it kept me warm. I could go have hot chocolate, you know, as opposed. And so I would do that because I didn't have to add anything to it. I just poured it in and that was good. But it wasn't until my early 20s, when that I gave coffee another chance via char bucks. Because again, that was the only thing I knew. I didn't know any better. And a friend of mine worked at worked at char bucks. And so if you don't know why I call it char bucks, it relates to the fact that they burn their coffee. They literally char the coffee. It's terrible. It's not coffee. It's really charcoal. Hence, char bucks. And we'll go a little bit into a little bit more into that here shortly. But because of the way they do it, it brings out that bitter taste. Coffee is actually supposed to have flavor, not bitterness. It's not supposed to be acidic. It's not supposed to have all of those. It's supposed to be well rounded with lots of different flavors. And char is not a flavor just so you know. But at the time, it was it's all I knew. It was a step up from the sludge of my youth. So I went and I would go and sit and I would read and do whatever my friends would work. And you know, it'd be great. I get discounts. That was probably the thing. But it was a gateway drug in many ways to help me understand there was something more for coffee. And they opened up a whole new world. And so I guess they did have a purpose. Don't quote me on that. I don't know if this has been recorded, but you didn't hear me say that caught that char bucks has a purpose. So but I did find that I liked an Americana, which was you know, it's espresso with water. I like that. So I just got that. That's what I got all the time burned my tongue so many times that I now have no taste buds here. But you know, I figured out, hey, I could live with it. I could live with ordering stuff at char bucks. It's great. It's fine. Then not long after, I couldn't go to to char bucks for some reason, I went to a local shop not too far from my house and fell in love with the fact that there was more to coffee than what I understood. And then I could find a better cup of coffee. And then I that started me on this path of looking for for more what was caught what you know, I was going to coffee shops all the time. I was trying all different things. I was learning how to make it the right way I was you know, figuring out the scientific pieces of if you have this much water, you need to have this much coffee and all of that stuff. And then it was also I all of a sudden realized that coffee actually had flavor. You know, it's supposed to it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to actually have flavor. And I left char bucks behind. And to this day, I don't think I've been to a char bucks more than I could probably count it on two hands, maybe two and a half hands in the last 15 years how many times I've been to char bucks. So yes, it's supposed to have flavor. This is an example of the flavor wheel. And it is real when you read the description. So I have a bag of coffee here. It says that the flavor notes are prunes, white pepper and brown sugar. That's not just you know, blowing smoke, that's actually there. And you can find those are in this entire flavor wheel. That's a whole another talk that probably has nothing really to do with the Deverell but I could probably make it fit. But there is coffee supposed to have flavor. It's not supposed to be, you know, char. It's actually supposed to have flavor. And that comes from the oils. And so anyways, as I, as I got to understand that I was smitten with the fact that there was so much more depth than what I'd ever imagined. I could figure things out. And so I went to coffee shops all over town. I volunteered at shops I visited a roaster in town that ended up being the top roaster in the US. I even competed in a barista competitions, volunteered at a shop to run it. And, you know, compete it. And if you have never been to a barista competition, that's a whole nother level of nerdery that is like unbelievable. And then, you know, my wife and I volunteered at one. We took over as managers. It was our church's coffee shop. We ran that for a while. So then when, you know, the manager, the owner of this shop said, Hey, we're going to be selling, we jumped at it. Again, I probably wasn't the wisest of moves in life as we went back to the whole three kids, two full-time jobs. But hey, otherwise, what would I be talking about now? So what does this have to do with Deverell? So this, this aforementioned passion that I have about coffee served me well when I would engage with our customers in the shop and begin to educate them on what a good cup of coffee should be. And what they would likely enjoy based on what their, you know, preferences were. And it wasn't uncommon for me to convert someone who required their coffee be equal parts milk, sugar, and maybe a little bit of coffee to actually be able to drink coffee black, because we understood what were the things that they what was their motivation? What did they like and find something that worked? And I always took that as a woohoo when I converted them. And my wife actually before we bought the shop she used to have she would add coffee to her milk. Now she drinks coffee black because I walked her through that process. So but it was all about finding what they were looking for what they were wanting. And even for some people need by asking the right questions, listening to them and building those relationships. So Douglas Adams, who wrote the great hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, he actually had this statement. And I think he says it best around understanding your, your communities and develop relations is to give real service, you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money. And that is sincerity and integrity. And to me, that's Deverell to a T. You have a product that you're evangelizing or that you're spreading the good news about. And it requires that you actively are listening that you are asking questions, you're building relationships with those developers that are using that product. And it's not always about giving them pizza and beer, which, you know, that doesn't hurt, but it's not always about that. But it is about being intentional in your activities towards them being authentic. Developers can they can see through marketing. It used to be, you know, back in the many years ago, that when email was new, you'd be so excited to get an email that you would, you know, as soon as you heard the, you've got mail, boom, you opened it up, you read it was it was novelty. That has long since gone. How many of you when you hear the ding of mail, you get that inner like soul sucking feeling of crap, I got an email. We didn't used to have that it used to be like this is the most joyous occasion in life. It's like when you get would get a phone call back in the day. Like that was the thing it was so exciting. Developers now have been so marketed to that email doesn't work traditional marketing stuff they see right through it. It's not because traditional marketing is not relational. It's not personal. It's very much removed from that. And so the important thing is, is you've got to build that trust with developers. And the sincerity and integrity, which is extremely important. Sorry. Sorry. Okay, so, so that's where this cold, whole kind of coffee and dev rail metaphor starts to really kind of tape shape. So as mentioned earlier, coffee is supposed to have flavor. And again, char is not a player, I'm going to say that multiple times because you got to get it through your head. If you like char bucks, come talk to me afterwards, we'll put a hex over you and hopefully you'll not. But it's a mental condition. I've come come to think that if you think that char is a flavor, you might we might have to do something. So but again, coffee is flavor. I'm gonna keep saying that because I want to make sure how many of you guys now I won't ask that question. So in order to make sure that you get all that stuff that you've got to have certain pieces go into building that cup of coffee, building the good dev rail program. And so we're going to kind of walk through this and I have enough time for this. So we're going to do this. I'm going to brew a French press here while we're doing this illustrating the different pieces of of dev rail and of coffee. So and this is the first time trying this will bear with me. We'll get there. So without good equipment, you can't make a good cup of coffee. It's extremely important that you know, you have good equipment doesn't mean you go and spend your college your kids college fund on coffee equipment. I don't encourage that, even though it might be fun. I don't encourage doing it. But you can brew a good cup of coffee with an arrow press with a French press, even with just a regular, you know, in America, the drip coffee, here, it's more the, you know, making the Americanos, but it's, you can make it with cheap equipment, as long as you have good equipment. You can even, you know, brew for less than $40, you could be set up with a decent brewing system and still have a good cup of coffee, whenever you want. The yeah, so the equipment. So here I have a French press. I have a portable grinder. I have a scale and water kettle. It's all the different pieces you need. So I have the water, I have the equipment, I have the coffee. Here's the coffee. Yeah, so just as good equipment is essential for a good cup of coffee. So are the tools that you use for yourselves and for your team are just as important. So things in for your developer audience. So things like SDKs, documentation, libraries, all those things are essential, essential pieces for good developer relations program. And you can't neglect them. You've got to have, they've got to be there. Developers, developers may not like reading documentation, much less writing it. But they like to know that if they do have a problem, they can go read it, they can go find out, they can have something that helps get them down that path, whether it be that they go to a community and can ask a question and it's there, or they can go to the documentation and it's searchable, and it actually has pieces in there. They want to know that it's there. So that in the, so having you and your tools available is extremely important for them. So your libraries and SDKs also need to be something that's easy to use. And a good rule of thumb is that if you have an SDK or you have a library or you have a piece of content that walks somebody through how to implement your, you know, whatever it may be, integrate your widget with, you know, open stack, whatever it might be, that you want to make sure that that process is so simple that the least technical person in your company can run it. And if they can't, there's a problem. You need to fix that. You need to make sure that tool or that documentation or that walkthrough, whatever it is, that tutorial is as simple as possible that somebody that's not technical can do it. So you could make the argument that water, that water is the most important ingredient for coffee. I think you could probably make that because coffee has to be a liquid one in its finished form. So water is extremely important. You can't have a cup of coffee without it. So you can use tap water, you can use bottled water. But it needs to be as clean as possible. Some tap water is better than others. You might want to go and, you know, get a good cup of coffee, you might have to go with bottled water. But I do recommend it using filtered water as all possible. We'll go ahead and turn that on. Coffee shops have to have filtering or else their equipment gets built up. So, you know, you have, you know, coffee shops are going to be using filtered water. If you can use filtered water, great. If not, regular water is good. Empathy with the developer relations program. Too often, that word empathy is missing from a lot of developer relations or a lot of communities that I've been a part of that I've seen. A good definition for that. So Merriam-Webster, the dictionary has, the English dictionary has this definition. It's the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts and experience of another, of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts and experience fully communicating in an objectively explicit manner. That's a lot of words. What it really comes down to though is that as a member of a DevRel team, you have to be able to understand, be aware of, sense, hear what the developers are saying. Understand it. I don't know that you can and I'll say this and I'm welcome to be proven wrong. I don't know that you can teach empathy as much as you can be more sensitive to empathy. I used to say when I was teaching, when I was teaching our barista how to brew, I used to tell them that I could teach a monkey to pull espresso shots. I can't teach a monkey to give good customer service. I think an empathy is one of those that it's got to come out of who you actually are. We can help give you some of the resources to be better at it, but it has to be part of who you are. You don't have to know another way of saying is empathy is advocacy, developer advocates or have this or should have it. Your developer relations program should have these pieces. They don't have to be technical. It helps to have some technical expertise, but a good developer relations professional doesn't have to be a full time developer. They just need to be able to listen and communicate and hear what those developers are experiencing and get it to somebody that cares or cares. Get it to somebody that can do something about it. Everybody should care. So developers don't care what you know until they know that you care. One of my sayings, you'll probably hear me say it a lot. So with water, temperature, it just reached boiling point. It's extremely important that in order for all of the science around it to happen, coffee has got to be at a certain temperature. The water has got to be at a certain temperature when it brews. And I did not do the conversion to Celsius, but in America that would be between 199 to 205 Fahrenheit. If somebody wants to figure out what that is in Celsius to be great, I can hopefully remember it. But it's got to be hot. It's got to be just off boiling point is essentially what that is. Similar when you brew tea, it's got to be on that. Very rarely do you have will there be a brewer at home, like a coffee brewer that can actually reach that temperature. The ones that can, you're spending a bunch of money on, which is why I encourage doing a French press because you can boil the water and you at least know that it's starting out at a good spot. Okay. Yeah, so yeah, I actually, in my notes, I did do it 90 to 96. So yes, there you go. Thanks, girl. But it isn't if the science about why it isn't all that, but it's got to be hot. So here, it's just come off. I'm going to put it just again, since I've been talking. Community, I'd say the community is kind of your water. It's it's what really kind of brings everything together. And if you spend any time around me, you know how passionate I am about community. And it's why I kind of made it a full time career. Quite a few years back is that I'm just so passionate about it. Excuse me. So that's a whole another line of talk that I don't really have the time for but community is that piece. How many here were community managers? Three, four people, you know how important community is to your, to your product in order for your company and what you're doing to have impact. The barista person making your cup of coffee is extremely important. Who here wants to while I'm doing this wants to grind the coffee. I want to do it. Alright, just keep turning it until it stops grinding. People on your team are extremely important. It's not it's not going to start with one training session. It's something that's going to continually happen can continually grow. They you need to invest in them. They need to be in learning as much as they can. Barista literally means somebody that prepares coffee. Like that's you know what that word means. Oh, also people at charbucks are not baristas. They're just pushing a button. That's not barista. Alright, I'm done. So this this is the team is extremely important for your Deverell team. This was my offsite with my team of month ago two months ago. Jim Collins wrote in 2001. So it's it's been a while but he wrote a book called good to great and what he did is he analyzed companies that you know what was the difference between the good companies and the great companies what made them the difference and he said with the team members, it had everything to do with putting the right people in the right seats on the right bus going the right direction. Team is important. And it's important you continue to invest in them. Like I said, help help them connect with others. There are other, you know, help them build relationships. There's different things like Community Pulse, which is a great podcast, Deverell radio is another good podcast. Deverell con is a great conference to help, you know, to go and learn more about developer relations. There's a Deverell collective Slack group that's out there. There's Deverell weekly, which is a good email newsletter that goes out. All of those are important for your for your people on your team in Deverell. Beans. So got here, beans are extremely important for coffee. They need to be fresh. They need to be brewed. Sorry, they need to be ground in the right way for what you're brewing. So here I've done a course grind, because we're doing a French press. It has to do with how long the water gets brewed. Sorry, how long the water comes in contact with the beans. And so in this case, somebody do a timer for start a timer. Let me know four minutes rain. Can you do that? Okay, so the beans are extremely important. The weight of those are all important as well. Good quality beans I recommend single origin. It means it comes from one farm. And it's not from multiple blends tend to be the leftover beans. They're less quality. They're not good. Decap is of the devil. Just don't even go there. Beans are also kind of like your product. You want to have a fresh product for your company. And how you're presenting it. If you're somebody that's going and writing content or you're doing talks or you're doing stickers or you're doing any of those things. The message you're trying to give has got to be something that's fresh. Some some companies that do it really well. You know, you see a good sticker game. The ton of stickers. One of the companies I know, Algolia, they have a search product in what they do very heavily as any of their conferences, they have stickers that have been customized for that conference. And so they're keeping it fresh. There's these, there's those. There's these. There's some more others even buttons. They're all they got tons of stuff. And it's all relevant to the product and to the people that are in that audience that they're that they're working with. So Deverell is an important piece for a company. And if none of these things like if all these things aren't working together, it's going to be completely out of balance and everybody's going in all different directions. And this just makes me sick looking at it actually. So in conclusion, in 2010, after two years of running a coffee shop and not sleeping much and also having our kids go, you have to go to the coffee shop again. We finally sold the coffee shop. It we built it up. We built up the business. We learned a lot from it. It was successful. But we had reached a spot where we needed to make a change. We don't regret it, but learned a lot. And especially when it comes to learning how developer relations is extremely important for a company. And, you know, no regrets, had to throw it in there. So we don't regret it. Sure, we don't have an espresso machine in our basement anymore that we could make coffee whenever we wanted. But coffee and develop relations go together. Because it's all about the experience about the product. It's about the people. And thank you. Enjoy coffee. Who wants a cup of coffee? You have to ask a good question first. So I get we got a couple minutes for questions. Looks like we got three minutes for five questions. So let's question. So the coffee shop that we had was in is that what you're asking is where where was it? It was in Kansas. So smack dab in the middle of the US. And it still is there today. It's still going, still going strong. And in fact, people that bought it from us sold it to somebody else that came in and had a ton of resources. And it's still going and I still go there today. And have people still see people to this day that we're customers. So you get a cup. Anyone else? Yes. So burnout is a thing. There were many times you have to take time for yourself. You have to be able to recognize it. And the biggest piece for that. We were we were lucky enough that we had people who said, Hey, you need to take some time. We'll take your kids. And it was even people in the coffee shop that were employees that said, Hey, I'm going to work this shift. You go out and do something else. You have to have people in your life that will call that out for you and say, Okay, all of this that you're experiencing is because you're burnout, you need to take a break. I have a number of people that are in my group of friends that we do that you have to also have a life outside of devrel outside of coffee that allows for that. And there's probably more that could be extrapolated on that. But that's a good start. Anything else? I got a couple more cups. All right, I'm going to pop over here. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.