 Let's first talk about the responses in the university campuses. You've been associated with so many universities, and in Jalal Nair University in particular, where we've seen courage in the part of students, but also terrible brutality, crushing of dissent. Could you talk to us about this new law for freedom of speech on the campus and what education is meant to be, what is the university space meant to be? You know, I think, like what I was saying earlier, that there is a new relationship that is embedded in the idea of the citizen and the state. We have to understand that there are institutions also that are required in this new relationship that emerge in this new relationship. And one of the institutions which is fundamental are universities, or is the institution of universities. And we have to understand, which not everybody understands, is that the university is very different from the kinds of institutions of learning and scholarship that existed earlier. You had Gurukuls, you had Muts, you had Madrasas and all the rest of it. Where learning meant being familiar with certain texts, knowing the language and reciting those texts, being familiar with ideas. Philosophical discussions took place, but very often took place on the margins of these institutions. The fundamental change from all those institutions and today's university is that the university is the only institution in which there is absolutely free thinking. There has to be free thinking, otherwise it's not a university. What is the point of a university? It is to teach people to think. Together with thinking it is to teach people to ask questions. Because as everybody knows, the only way in which knowledge advances is if people ask questions of that knowledge, start challenging and questioning that knowledge, existing knowledge, then new knowledge comes up. The authority figure has to own that authority every single day. Every single day? And with every single response to a question. Absolutely, absolutely. Now if you have a system that says you don't ask questions or what I am teaching you is all that you need to know, then you're really annulling the whole university system. The university system must challenge knowledge, must ask questions. Now it's true that in most societies this period when young minds are in universities is the period in which this happens. After that you go into jobs, you go into other things and there are very few who have the luxury of going on questioning and going on asking questions and adding to knowledge. That is really a small fraction of society. But nevertheless that experience of asking questions, learning how to ask questions is very important. You don't just ask any old question. You ask a question which is implicitly something that will draw forth information, knowledge and evidence of connections and so on and so forth. That ability to ask questions is very important in any profession. Whether you're going to be a school teacher or a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or a computer expert, whatever it may be, the ability to ask questions is fundamental. Now when you start destroying that in the institution that is meant to teach you how to do it, then you've destroyed the institution and you have destroyed the intellectual potential of your next generation. And when you have people saying, students are meant to study, they really mean study their textbooks, seek information and answers from figures of authority. But not, is it possible, what I'm trying to ask is, is it possible to ask the kind of questions you are referring to without asking questions of the world around them outside the campus in which case, political questions? Yes, political in its widest sense. You know, my political one isn't referring only to left politics as is very often. Political parties. Yes, or political parties. It is political in the widest sense of the world that we're living in. The world that surrounds us. Yes, this is what I meant, that the awareness of asking questions refers to absolutely everything that we're living with and in. That is absolutely very essential. And if you can't do that. And it's not just asking questions about the world you're living in, but also asking questions about the texts you're reading and the books you're reading. I mean, after all, 1968 did take place almost uniformly over the world with students saying that we think we're not really reading and studying the kinds of things we should be studying. And there was a change in courses and syllabi in many universities. Now that kind of dialogue that goes on with those who are teaching and those who are studying is absolutely essential. And this is what we were aiming at in GNU, that students used to stop one in the middle of a lecture and say, I'm sorry, I don't understand or I don't agree. And then you had a discussion, which meant that there was much more clarity on the subject, both from the point of view of the person who was teaching it and the person who was listening to the lecture. Now it's that kind of questioning with a purpose, questioning with the intention of understanding the problem much more than one does normally. That is crucial in a university. But that also then means that if you're going to be questioning what you're being taught or how you're being taught or that kind of thing and you're questioning the world around you, then you're also questioning the system that's governing you. And that's where the problem comes in. When you start questioning the system that's governing you, those that are doing the governing start getting anxious and want to stop it. But the questions also lead to certain commitments. So if you have, your questions have led you to an understanding that everyone must have access to education. A small thing, you're a student, you see that this is a diverse country and everyone must have access to education. Hence the emphasis on public education. So say lower fees. So then that is an issue you take up. So when we're talking, we're using the word political, we are referring to issues like that. Or you see all around you that cast flourishes and in all kinds of new geysers. And the questions you're asking will again lead you to, and everybody's not necessarily in agreement. I think we also want to say that it's not students as a kind of homogeneous voice. No, no, not at all. In fact, this is again where diversity is very important. And this is where you can only question if you say, no, I'm not in agreement. And the next person says, well, so what is your opinion? And then you start questioning the first opinion. And this is age old. I mean, I keep on saying that, you know, the foundational procedure in Indian philosophy is so similar to the Socratic method, which is that you first put across the view of your opponent, then you put your view across, then you suggest that there is a debate between the two and see if there can be a solution. What is referred to as Purva Paksha, Prathipaksha, Siddhanta, which everybody who does any kind of philosophical study has to go through this process of debate, discussion, and then finding a solution or not finding a solution and saying, well, the debate continues to be open. Absolutely. So questioning debate, and that would be, these are the essentials in the educational process and in the side of the university. Moving on to what is happening to campuses right now with the protests against the CAA and the NPR and the NRC, we're going to talk about the police on the streets. But we're also going to have to talk about the police in the campus. Sometimes they've been called in when they shouldn't have been. Sometimes they're not called in when they need to be called in. Sometimes they're just there and not doing anything. With all your experience in Jane, you say, would you tell us what would be a kind of guideline that we should insist on as far as the police are concerned and the police presence on campus is concerned? You know, my view on this has always been that there's really no need for the police. If you have a situation where people are in dialogue with each other, and like, you know, we used to, the first ten years of Jane, you for example, there were gay rows all the time. Even I was gay out. I enjoyed it immensely because it turned into a kind of tutorial meeting and we had endless discussions as a result of... I hope all those who are gay out were listening to this carefully. And then there was a time when the situation became very explosive and the police was called in. But even at that point I kept thinking that, you know, the essence of an institution like a university is precisely that you sort out the problems through discussion and through dialogue. And debate. Absolutely, and through debate. And if there is need for security, if there is some form of insecurity, it should be within that community. The community is very important in a university. The university has to think of itself as a community. Otherwise there is a resort to constantly ringing up the police and saying, please come and bash up whoever is creating trouble. That's not the way to run a university. You don't want mobs coming in. You don't want police sitting around. What then is destroying this community or has been assaulting this idea of the community? I think it's partly that the people who are now running the universities by and large don't know what a university is. They treat it as any old institution and they're treating it again like gurukuls and madrasas. That we know what is to be taught and only that will be taught and students have to be subservient. Now that's not teaching, that's not education. Nobody has to be subservient. There has to be an exchange. And that notion of knowledge as a process of exchange from which exchange further knowledge develops is absent today. And the second thing I think of course is that our institutions are now, if I may use the word infiltrated, by people who are essentially concerned with the narrowly based political side of life rather than what should be the concern of those running a university. I think the quality of people has changed and that is also partly responsible for this change. And I'm very disturbed because I can see a situation in which most universities will probably be annulled as universities. They'll become teaching shops and that's it. Perhaps we should be clear about what this narrowly political, because so often we hear the larger political outlook being trashed and saying this is not what a university should partake of. No, I think a university needs to know about. It needs to know about the narrowly political, yes, very much so. It needs to know about the political at all levels because after all it is an institution in society and every institution in society needs to know what are the different levels by which it is being surrounded and how does one cope with these levels. So there's a certain level of narrowly political where the domination is of, to put it mildly, unlettered goodness and there's another level of the political where there is much more thoughtful consideration of what kind of society are we, what is the kind of society we want to be, is this going to lead to something positive, is this going to help us in our search for knowledge or not. These are levels.