 And welcome back to the next stock of SolarPunk 2077. We just heard the lovely Radio Cosmica coming from Mexico talking about how to heal through radio waves. And that's, I guess, a good intro into what's coming next. I'd like to welcome my friend, my own phone to today. He's going to be talking about, hello, my own phone. Guerrilla Living Syndrome or the Adelkis Hospital, as you also call it sometimes, sharing a bit about the imagination and other forms of living together in this planet. Welcome, my own phone. Can you please introduce yourself? Okay, hello. My name is Ma Yongfu. I'm an artist and curator based in Berlin, but I was living in China for many, most of the time in Beijing and Shenzhen and some other cities. But I'm doing a lot of different projects. It's kind of a non-traditional or non-conventional art project. So, but yeah, today I'd like to actually, I'd like to come to do the face-to-face interview, but I have to do the self-courting today because I have been outside of the Berlin for several days. So that's, today I'd like to introduce the project. It was initiated by Forget Art in 2011 and 2012 because the project named the Guerrilla Living Syndrome. It's like, you know, because in traditional China, especially in the faster developing big cities in China like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen and Guangzhou, the many young people live there and to work there. But the government urges the young people to try to buy property according to their some tradition and concept, or some ideology. People think that if you become a successful man in China, you should buy some properties and buy some apartment. It's not like in Germany, in Berlin. You don't need to buy some property. I mean, it's after the communist China, it's become very harsh and very tough and very deep and capitalism in China. Actually, it's a mixture of the neoliberal capitalism and also I think the government tries to ask the young people to buy property because they want this young people to try to occupy their lives with money, with property, with cars, with luxuries, with entertainment. And it makes them have no energy to do any kind of resistance to some other very different ideas. Because if you have a lot of burden, like life's burden or some pressure, you don't have the energy to think how the community you are living. That's why in 2011 I have talked with some artists, architecture and some anarchists and also activists. I'll do some projects about this. This is very relative and feel very able to live in peace and try to against the very traditional and conventional idea about how to live in the big city or in the... It's also like today, we are trying to many new anarchists to try to reclaim the networks, to reclaim the online media. But on the other hand, we have to reclaim the traditional space because many traditional space have been abandoned like a street and factory and even the museum space. So a lot of space have been abandoned by the new generation because they spend too much time online in some social media. But this project tried to urge the young people to use their imagination. You can see this tricycle caravan, and with a maxim there are some slogans from a French philosopher, guide the ball, imagination at power. Actually I want to change a little bit. We can call it to empower your imagination. Today we also need to like anarchists, real anarchists, we need to empower our imagination to make some very alternative way to live in. That's the basic thinking about how to make this project in the street or in the square or in the occupied place or some squaded place. You can use the imagination to create and remake and recreate some living structure or some asylums. Or you can call it what you want. So we have asked almost 40 or 50 artists and young artists and architects to make some project in the street or square and some other places. Every artist and architect they can use their experience to create some griller living structure or living asylums. I remember one of the artists, one of the young artists, to make some easy to bring cuckoo. It's like a desired cuckoo and he can easily to bring this, it's like a bag, it's like a tote bag but it's a little big. He can bring it anywhere and open very quickly to live there. So it's very interesting. There are many interesting works and many interesting works appeared in the streets and also everywhere in the square and even in the forest. This picture was recreated in front of one of the art museums in Shanghai. It's MCE, Museum of Contemporary Art, Ming Contemporary Art Museum, Shanghai. And after 70 or 80 years this museum has commissioned us to recreate this project in front of the museum. So then I asked some people together to make the, you know, it's like an arcade camp in front of the museum. Also we have brought one of the art projects together with this camp together. It's an online podcast and the radio. It's uncut. It's also initiated in 2012 and with two other friends. And this online radio is dedicated to some socially engaged art, social action programs. And last year we have interviewed some, you know, Hong Kong pro-democracy activists in Berlin last year. So we combined this radio together. You can read it with this arcade camp together. You can see the caravan. There's a big maxim was installed on the caravan. And we can, during the opening and sometimes I also do some, you know, guerrilla Shanghai radio. And I did a live interview with some activists in Shanghai and some anarchists inside of this caravan. Or sometimes I use the recording material to broadcast in front of this square, in front of this museum. And this microphone actually, it's according to my memory, it's come from the People's Commune, you know, in the 70s. It's a very big, it has a lot of, I mean, the voice is very big. It could spread 500 meters away or even 800 meters away. The voice is very big. And also the object of this arcade camp, it's a school. It's a primary school, it's a high school. Even students from high school can hear this voice and this program. Because most of the tracks are very sensitive in China. I have tried to build some platform in China, but it was banned. And they have deleted all of my tracks overnight. So I have to put this platform on SoundCloud. You can check all the tracks and archives from SoundCloud, SoundCloud Uncut. And also this Uncut radio, it's a motor with Uncut and Uncensored and Unlimited. You can talk whatever you want. We don't edit, we don't censor any of the content. You can speak whatever you want. So no one tries to censor you or manipulate you. So we combine this together. Because I haven't found some picture from 2011. So I use this picture in front of me. But that's very urgent. Especially in China, because in China, in the 20th and 30th of last century, the Anakin thoughts were spreading very well before the Marxism have appeared. Many activists believe in Anakin, since the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, they took the power to become a very authoritarian government. So that's why I talk to some fans. That's the big difference between the Marxist and the Anakin. Because Marxists, if they have opportunity, they would like to take the power and become totalitarian. And the Anakinists, they don't want to take some power. They want to empower people. They want to share the power to other people. I think in China, people need more and more Anakinist concept and thoughts to share. But you have to add the Anakinism. Going back to the last point you said, you were saying that before the Nationalist and Communist Revolution, the biggest revolutionary movement in China in the early 1900s was actually anarchism. Is that correct? Yeah, it's a very short time, just 10 years I think. From 1918 to the 1928, maybe after that, most people believe in the Marxism, because we need to take down the Qing dynasty. Because we want to build a strong country. Because the activists asked the people, they let the people think, we were exploited by the imperialists, like Great Britain or some colonial power. That's why they try to let young people believe in Marxism. And not anarchism. Because anarchism is more libertarian and more individual. But today, in China, many people don't know anarchism. Because not many media and not many platforms have tried to promote anarchism in China. And people have tried to discredit anarchism. It represents some chaos and unsteady society. Your life will be getting influenced. The government tried to use people to study life. You can live a very good living. And anarchists represent some violence and vandalism. But it's not true. That's why we try to... Sometimes, I think art is a very good way to use and take advantage of contemporary art as a tool to supply some anarchism. It's easier to let people accept because they could find some fun and interesting things to share together. You don't need to tell them, oh, anarchism or something. But we use some very practical, substantial action and the community to let people believe we can do it. There are many kinds of practical ways to let people think, oh, this is a very idea. This is what I really want to do. Like many artists and young people, actually they want to do and they want to invent. They want to recreate their lives. They want to just leave a boring modern apartment or some living with some burden or pressure. Actually, they want to live an interesting life without burden. They want to have a tribal and make their things. Art project is easy to let people excited. That's why we try to do this project in the long term. So it's a long term project from back to until now. So we're still doing this and also we're still doing the uncut podcast. But it's kind of sometimes it's a random and also sometimes it's improvised media like uncut. We don't have a schedule to make an interview. If we found some interesting projects, we would like to do that. So we combine these two projects together to make a camp and some interviews and online streaming in front of the museum. But we will not only do this in front of the museum. We would like to do it tomorrow in some streets and the city square. Actually in 2015, I was doing some refugee project in Belgrade and Serbia also in the public square. I was invented by the European alternatives to do some projects in the city square in Belgrade. So in some projects, I also think that artists should use their imagination to trigger some new possibilities for the social activists. And not just as a studio to do some that's my that's my basic thinking about today's artist is not the same studio. They should go to the. They should, you know, they should, you know, appeared in the street and to making that square. And some, you know, some offside, making some offside projects. Yeah. I have also made some project in in some in in the university square in in the university, University of Bologna in 2012. And because there's a big demonstration and the protest in the square. So I was asked to to make some projects with the students together. I made a lot of, you know, you know, as recycled cardboard and some, you know, banners. And to make and also some as I, and I, I springed some many sentence on and tried to make conversation with us local students. We're seeing people and I want to challenge in there. There's what what what they're seeking so that's a lot of a conversation in squares. That's a very interesting experience for me so because many students say they would like to come to write down right, right, right down there seeking We have, we have a lot of, you know, recycled cardboard, cardboard and some banners empty for their for them to use. But you, you, we want, we want to, you know, launch some, some, you know, provocative conversation, because we want to doubt it is a carnival or some result or something. So that's, that's tried to make some a strict discussion with the students. Why do they come to protest and why what's the protesting it's carnival or so so because there are no, you know, opposite pressure like China in China you can't go to street to do any kind of protest and the demonstration after 1918, because the Tiananmen massacre, the Chinese Communist Party have cracked down any kind of protest and demonstration in the streets, you have no, you have no possibility to do that. And if you appeared in the street to do the demonstration, you will be, you will be get arrested in, in, in five minutes. So, so that's, that's why they, they try to crack down the pro democracy demonstration very big one in Hong Kong. And because of this, this, this, this committees party they come from the, they come, they took the power through, you know, through weapons so they, they, they truly believe in the weapon. And like the chairman most side is all the power come from the weapon. So they don't afraid any kind of demonstration. They use a very different, of course, after the now that they don't, they don't use the very violent massacre, like a Tiananmen square. Now they use a very different way, like, you know, online as villains and censorship. And now they use the infiltration and the, the user, you know, the gangster to manipulate the demonstration. So that they use a very, very, they try to use every resource to, to, to take down any kind of resistance in China. So that's, that's, that's a very, very tremendous challenge and fall for the Chinese activists. That's actually, that's why I, that's why, that's why I also I have left there and I tried to come to Berlin because sometimes you can't do any, you can't do anything. You feel very depression about what is happening around you. I tried to do something here maybe to help the people in China. But, but according to the, you know, the experience that I have, I have been working in the contemporary art field, I truly believe in today's because I, I believe in the contemporary art, most contemporary art today is very boring because it was very gentrified. And the deep, very deep, very, you know, it's very deep commodity. It's, so it's, so I, that's why I want, I want to create something in material. And, you know, in material and also some projects that try to know, try to make that, try to make the, you know, try to use some, you know, even for the anarchy, I think some, some of that, it's, it's also have problems. So, so anarchy hospital is maybe some kind of a self-heal, you know, because you have to self reflection and self thinking about what you're doing and then you can, you can find some, you know, cutting edge or some, you know, interesting idea to, to practice, to, to, so that's what I'm thinking. But it's interesting, I have, when I was living in Kalsberg, Berlin, I have found many, you know, many anarchist camps around Kalsberg and along the, you know, along the Spree River, and also the some squatting apartment. That's very interesting. And even in the 2018 in Kalsberg, we also have some movement to against the, you know, the Google camp and it works. It's very interesting. But also I'm, I'm looking with international activists and anarchists from China try to make some communication platform also and exchange, exchange some interesting idea about how to build some interesting commas and also, you know, to, to fight with, fight with today's, you know, unfair or some society and also the, yes, today's, and also the today's, the total control. And actually it's very interesting. You can, you can, you can find it today. We're also, we're living very, you know, technology time also, some, some philosophy called as a personie. We're living the as a personie time, a time, a time that as a personie. But actually, we have a lot of a lot of, you know, a exploitation, explore a lot of censorship, a lot of invisible and intent, intangible crackdown about people. And today's, today's control is sometimes the invisible. So you can't feel that. So that's, we have to, we have to find that that's less like last time we have talked about we have, we have to know exactly what they are doing like a government or this financial system. And they're, what they're doing then we are, and also this technology background, we should know something about this technology, and also this national nations, nation-state control. What's, what's their new strategy and tactical to how to control people, how to send the people, then we, we, we can know how to fight with them. We, we can't, you know, we can't fight, we, we can't fight like a tradition anarchist, a traditional anarchist, it's a, it doesn't work now, you know, it, it really doesn't work. And we should, we should divide some new idea about how to fight with this, the new, new, new exploitation. Yeah, that's some basic thing thinking about, yeah, because according to the, you know, the experience and, you know, I have done, I have deeply believed it today, but we have to make the, you know, two, two different, you know, resistance online and offline, you know, but we have to find the weak points of this, this system and to, to fight with them and not just, you know, not just fight them blindly, you know, that's what I'm thinking all the time about this. But do you have some question or First I would like to really thank you for your reflections. Yeah, I, I am very, yeah, very moved by a lot of the things that you said, specifically this last part of how like we need to even go beyond this typical ideas or traditions that we have of anarchism. I really imagine other worlds and other practices of ways of fighting these structures of domination, like the state surveillance, the capitalist surveillance. Also had a hack all these technologies and into into different ways where we can democratize them or I don't know even as we heard before also from other cosmic and cyber girls like how to, how to like heal also through this, through these practices and I want to ask you maybe a little bit because you only touched barely on it about the anarchist hospital. What is it? How did you thought about it and and how can we make it a reality? Actually, Anarchy Health Hospital is kind of you know, we're thinking about anarchism because as maybe, maybe different, we have, we have, we have also, we have many, you know, and can many different kinds of anarchism before, but what's facing today is a new technology, new financial system and a new social structure. We need some new perspective to fight with today's institution and invisible enemies. So that means we anarchists, we should have, it's like a hospital, we go there to check all, all, you know, our weak points and then we overcome that. Yes, it's, yes, I mean, I mean the several, several, we, we know our self limitation, our self restriction, our self, you know, weakness and then we know how to fight them. That's, that's the basic thinking about Anarchy that means every anarchist have a need go to hospital to check by themselves and then in solidarity with other people and we can because maybe other people, it's a very good measure for you and like we have a lot of exchange about the new anarchism. So then we can find, oh, like we are, we are living in the hospital, we, we, you know, we, we treat each other and we found some interesting idea to work together, you know, that's the, the basic idea about Anarchy Hospital. Yeah, I see it in a lot of my, my friends organized here in the left in Berlin and other places like the need to really have a space just to reflect and calm down and not organize for a little bit. So then they can come back, you know, otherwise it's like we're burning ourselves into the fire, we're just going into the beast and, you know, by ourselves individually pretending that we can stop it, right? And I think maybe we do need to also take back, as you were saying, it's not just the virtual spaces but the physical space so that we can create, you know, Anarchy Hospital with, you know, with running water and, and everything else that we need, hopefully. And yeah, like in Exarchia, they have anarchist hospital that helps people when they don't have the ability to pay for healthcare, they can go to these anarchist station for pharmaceuticals and everything. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, actually, as a policy talk about the real hospital, physical hospital, it also works, because in the future, yeah, maybe in Germany, some, some poor people cannot go to a hospital to do, you know, to heal them self. Maybe it's also a good idea to have some, you know, public hospital to, you know, Anarchy Hospital to treat some people they want, they really want, they really need some doctors, also it's a good idea, you know. I guess it's also a way of decentralizing the knowledge of our bodies, like today, nobody knows about their own body, you know, like most people, especially us men, I feel like we never thought about our own physiognomy works and so on. We saw out of touch with it, and I feel like really creating a space where people can learn about these things. And then also healing each other is a way where like we, you know, can all be doctors somehow. I mean, that's very idealistic, probably a doctor will laugh at me, but you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's, yeah. Yeah, because now we have a very, we have the big, the very serious, you know, severe situation with the pandemic. After this pandemic station, all the country have, you know, have a stress and they, you know, squeeze the people's power and you know, trying to centralize the power, and the German government, of course, the Chinese government, they try to take down, I mean, they try to control totally 100% about people. So that's also the big hospital all around the world now. So that's like people let us to think about, you know, what we're living around us, you know. It's a, it's a, it's a word, hospital now, you know, everywhere. Yeah, and how do we create those spaces for mutual aid, mutual care, that, you know, we can actually like build that bottom up health. Tomorrow we will have people from the hologram, Cassie, Cassie, forget her last name and Max Haven will be speaking about Cassie Thornton and Max Haven will be thinking a bit about this peer to peer health care tools so watch out for that tomorrow. And then the other thing my own phone I wanted to go back to in your, in your very interesting talk was about sort of the, this whole thing of the Marxist taking power and becoming totalitarian we've seen that happening in China and in the Soviet Union in many parts of the world really in Latin America as well. Some extent also. And so it makes me wonder right because now you know, there are many layers to this, like if you look at the debates now for democracy in Hong Kong, like you mentioned, and also Taiwan as a sort of like some people call it the other China or whatever. There is this sort of back and forth between China and Taiwan and also Hong Kong about, like, what is the real China, right and which one is communist and which one is capitalist. But in the end of the day, as you said, they're both, I mean, China is capitalist so they're both capitalist nations so for me I wonder if the future of China might be like an anarchist federation. As in like, you know, all these places can autonomously organize themselves, and then democratically decide over what what pertains to them without having this top doubt totalitarian regimes which just, you know, destroy the planet through their practices of exploitation and extraction of resources so I wonder if we can see the possibility of anarchist China, whether that's just in John War or or in the whole Chinese speaking world. China is a culturally invented term. It's not, we don't call it China before. We have because we have many dynasties like from Qing dynasty to Tang dynasty to Qing dynasty. So the every dynasty have a different culture. And we also have Mongolia and the Manchur people have gathered us, you know, just have a, you know, so China is very complicated. It's a very complicated term. And for for the for the anarchist anarchism at the future anarchist future in China. I think in the rural area and some in some of the, you know, not easily controlled area it's, it's, it's dear. You can develop some anarchy community and, but now it's a Chinese community community they want a Chinese communities party they want to, they want, they want to make a very large commerce structure, like me is that it's like as a dynasty, like the chin dynasty. Because 2000 years ago China is a country. It's not like like Europe. It's like, it's not like a feudal system. It's, it's a today we call it authoritaria auto tell authoritaria or totalitarian. But it's, it's a structure have existed for 2000 years. It's a very strong structure. It's not easy to break down, you know. And also, because the maximum have a sprite in China, they combined this tradition, large, a large commerce structure together, and it tried to control every small commerce structure. That means that means anarchist group, or some, some nonprofit on NGO, all the, they, they, they try to, you know, crack down all these small groups, because they want all the other group, all the people, they want all the people become sand, become sand, and to believe to believe in the central government. Yeah, that's why the decentralization in China become centralize centralization, like, you know, what's what you call that was, what's the new technology. What's the English name blockchain, blockchain in China become a centralized blockchain. You can't imagine that. The technology in China have become the new weapon, a new technology weapon to control people. It's not to the future. It's not a bright brilliant future for people to share. It's not about anarchist. It's about control. That's a totally different, you know, perspective in China. So I think it's, it's still have some possibility to develop some anarchist, but not in the big cities, and maybe some rural area and some, you know, maybe, maybe in Taiwan or Hong Kong, Hong Kong, that's not possible now, because Hong Kong have a, they have controlled Hong Kong totally now, and Taiwan maybe. But I know there are also some, it has some small anarchist group in Wuhan and in Guangdong. They are active. I don't know what's the future, but I feel like it should, they will develop, they will evolve by themselves. But the central government don't like this, you know, apparently. I wonder why. Of course, because they want, they thought it's illegal or some illegal assembly, illegal assembly, illegal things. But at the same time, at the same time in China, well, it was interesting. Now you mentioned this whole like mixture of structures of like the sort of the ancient, the dynastical, patriarchal tradition with mixing and with this Marxist state socialism, and the construction of China as this mix of, you know, confusing China as when people talk about China, and oftentimes it's hard to separate between the Chinese people, the Chinese communist government, and like the place as it were. And oftentimes, I think that that is kind of like this construction of China you were talking about, that is so hard to, to tear apart, which is really just a very new historical thing, Yeah, and based on that, I would like also ask, like, what about these other democratic traditions that for example, our friend here who was in Rojava in Kurdistan was talking about, like you have these traditions of Taoist, Taoist, and also even Buddhism, wouldn't you say that maybe there is some sort of grassroots remnants there, or was it all chopped out by the Cultural Revolution in China? What do you mean? I mean the Buddhism or Taoism, they have some... Yeah, having these sort of grassroots democratic, I would say even anarchistic potentials in China or were they all like eliminated by the Chinese communist regime? Now the meaning is, because in China they also have many elite leftists, or some, you know, liberalism, a liberalist in China, a liberalist intellectuals, their, you know, their political ideas, try to use the wise democracy system, try to use the democratic system, but they also have a tradition, elite leftists, they are more interested in, you know, anarchism. Like we don't fuck with them, they are supposed to live with us. Yeah, because we have lived in some commune, like, it's really, I mean, in some small, in some small, you know, area, it works where? I have experienced a little bit of people's commune when I was very young, because I found a cave, for me it's very interesting, and also it's very, a lot of fun because you can meet a lot of people to eat together. So it's because they have a dining hall for all the people together. So that's interesting, because that's why some leftists in China, they like to promote and develop some new anarchist platform, and also they have a lot of, you know, media. And they have, they also have translated a lot of for article about, you know, about this anarchism. And is there a connection between the anarchists and the Taoists in China? Not very much. Actually, people maybe can get information from that, because Lao, the Laozi and the Zhuangzi also have a very, very, you know, very, very, very idealistic anarchism about. But it's, according to my understanding, it's kind of, they want to a small country like Europe, many different small countries together, and they don't want this like China now. That's, that's their idea is separate, many small countries separated, like Europe. But, you know, Yeah, but it's, yeah. They also, the Buddhists have their, their, their community is like the Christian hermit. But now the, I think, because the religion have been manipulated by the government, by politics also. In China. So the many religions, many temple and church, they have to, they have to, you know, listen to the Chinese community party at first. So that's, that's a big, that's a bigger, you know, challenging for religion in China. Religion is managed by the state. Yeah, yeah, as a community side, you, you, you, you can't, yeah, you can do the religion, but you have to listen to the, you can't do any kind of resistance or you can't. That will censor, censor you, or you have to listen to the government as the party at first. And well, so because this is an uncensored place and we need to close down really soon. Do you have any uncensored ideas or comments you would like to share with the world before we close this, this round, my own home. Yeah, yeah. I at last I want to say that they will have a lot of space and you know, physical, physically or virtually to reclaim and recreate and redefine and reinvent, invent. So, so there are a lot of challenging. Yeah, for us to do, you know. Yeah, that's what I'm seeking. Thank you so much my own phone for your time and for your sharing your thoughts and of the imagination. My own phone. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks mom. Thanks my own phone. You're, you're frozen. You're frozen. Okay. What did you say? No, I just said thank you for your time and for sharing your thoughts and for allowing us to imagine what other worlds can be possible. Specifically from your experience in in China. Yeah, in just in general really with your art. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to speak. Yeah. Thank you for many people as you see, the Stalinist and the Marxist are watching. As you know, I would like to end on this because there are many, many European Marxist look at China as the pinnacle of communism and the best place where it's often happened. And so maybe maybe you want to send them a message. But they also have a lot of anarchist, not only Marxist, Marxist, because China is a very complicated country. So of course, it has a lot of layers, layers and you know, in, and also entanglement. So it's not once, it's not one thing, you know, of course, of course, no, I just meant about the idealization of the Chinese Communist Party, like this big ideal socialist, you know, place where communism really happened and all this, because there is a lot of idealization or romanticism from Europe. I encountered when I came here about about China, they see it like the left traditional Marxist or more of those Maxis I would even call them are really sort of, yeah, romanticizing or idealizing China. And it's a bit, yeah, it feels opportunistic, I feel, you know, in many ways. If you encounter this yourself. 100% of the European leftist intellectuals they have idealized China. Especially the cultural revolution, they have been measured out that's idea. That's a place, but actually thousands of 10,000 maybe thousands of 1000 people have been have a have been, you know, killed and during that time. That's, that's a big nine Meyer, it's not. So that's the future is anarchism, it's not a maximum. Definitely. Thank you. Yeah. Welcome. Thank you, my uncle. Welcome. Super inspiring. Yeah. Wow. Good night. So now we take another small pause. Yeah, then we are back with circles you bi with Julio. Then we're going to make a nice massage to Julio. All right.