 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to today's webinar Express, Equity, Diversity and Inclusion at Work, More Than Just Lip Service, with our guest speaker Claire Kemsley, which has been organised by the CIM Greater London Group. So I would now like to hand over to Claire Kemsley, Managing Director UK and Ireland of Hayes Marketing, who is our guest speaker today. Over to you Claire. Thank you very much for inviting me today. And before I share the EDI data and insights, I'd like to give you a snapshot of the market drawn from the many different data sets that we acquire through the many different surveys we do. Some of these surveys we do annually, such as the salary guide, which I'm going to touch on today, just to give you some market insight. Some of them are just produced as the market calls for them, for example the end of the 95, everything you need to know that employers want from a skills perspective, that changes obviously on a regular basis, and empowerment and top job information. These are produced probably on a biannual basis. And as I say, sometimes if there's a particular sentiment in the marketplace, if something is changing, obviously we've had a very challenging two years, then we do go to our very wide customer base and try and get some data and then share some insights with you on how the world of marketing feels. Most of the data that we collect is from about 14, 15 different professions. And then what we do for this audience and for our customers is break down that data and show some of the organic data and then extract out what marketing and commerce people may feel on particular challenges, particular issues. I use the data with round tables. So if anyone's interested in sending one of those, we have four or five Q decision makers at a round table. And we dig deeper, I guess, into some of the data that we have here. And it leads to some quite challenging conversations for marketing and commerce people to face, whether it's about the shift in shape of their own business or their own career. So if we could just take a little look at the 2020-22 Surveys Survey Guide. If we just pause on this for a moment, this is the eighth year that we did the survey. And the reason I want to share this with you is because we've got some up to date market information that I think you'd be interested in before we delve into the ED in our report itself. We surveyed over 23,500 people last September, October 2021 to get this information for you. And of that, a sizeable number work on the marketing profession itself. I'm only going to share a couple of slides to give us a quick overview today. But you are welcome to have access to the full report. And at the end of this, please ask me any questions in the Q&A. And if Phil is happy, we can share other reports with you via a link. So let's start with some of the market data. So what did we discover about how the market feels? Well, this is your marketplace in the last six months. A huge amount of vacancies. And it's really super interesting to see that in the top five or six, we've had product online multi-management marketing assistants jumping between those first four or five positions since January of last year. This is quite up to date. This is just the last six months. And this gives us an idea of how busy your marketplace is, how busy your world is, because this isn't all about recruitment. This is about actually the shift and shape of marketing teams, particularly that accelerated over the last two or three years and particularly accelerated over the last 18 months. So I just wanted to share with you the size of the place that you're in at the moment. And if we look at the next slide, what we're talking about here is confidence. So marketing employers, interestingly, we extrapolated this data for marketeers specifically for you. Marketing employers were much more optimistic about the wider economic climate and the employment opportunities it may create within the next two to five years than most other professions. And if you can see the line here, 33%, that was how they felt in 2020. In the last year, 64% said, actually, we are fairly confident in the economic climate in the lead into longer two to five years. And in fact, that 63% is for a pulse survey we did in the last month. And I'll refer to some of the other data from the pulse survey right up to the minute data for the last four to six weeks. So this does include the terrible goings on and the terrible situations that we're facing with Ukraine. So even with the fuel crisis withstanding that terrible situation, marketers are still feeling, I think, pretty optimistic about the wider economic climate and the long term employment opportunities. And our recent spring survey, that 63%, as I say, is only in the last four weeks. That survey closed about two weeks ago. We haven't even actually printed up all the data for it yet. But I wanted to share that with you, because I think it shows a very strong sign about our marketplace. But if we are looking at what confidence brings, we are inevitably looking at demand. And demand for talent has soared over over the last eight years to a record high. Of the back of this boost in confidence, demand has soared to 80% of employers across the UK. That's all disciplines, HR, IT, saying that they expect to hire in the year 2022. And that has increased from 70% from last year. And what we need to remember is these hiring intentions are also the highest levels we've seen in the eight years as we began the survey. So this is real data for us. And it's a huge increase. In marketing specifically, 81% of employers said they plan to hire in this year, 2022. And that's an increase from 67% last year. And in fact, the pulse survey, the last four weeks data tells us it's sitting at between 68% and 70% now. So this is the overall financial year, dipped a little bit in the last four weeks. But the rapid acceleration of the marketing function, as I said earlier, in many organisations shows no sign of abating. Digital transformation, and the journey that a lot of businesses are still on is gathering pace. Marketing overall is becoming more commercial every year and more valued. And post pandemic, we sincerely hope it's post pandemic, the role of commercial and communications experts internally, externally have been recognised. I have seen businesses where marketing has been catapulted into the boardroom or the committee room, the most senior place a business organisation has, as the voice of the customer was such a desperate need last year for many organisations that thought they had already heard it. So I sincerely hope that this place that marketing finds itself, and by the way, when I say marketing, I'm referring to marketing communications, obviously, and the tech roles of marketing across the whole functions I mean. I'm hoping that the shift in shape of these teams will continue to affect the need of the voice of the customer and have it loudly heard in that centre of business, an organisation, a university, where we need to be sat to be part of the strategic and objective setting of that business. So that's the positive. The demands, however, in developing not just the technology, but the impetus of those new teams or those teams that are currently in place that are shifting to meet the demands of the customer is leading in turn to these developing skills shortages, storytelling, CRM, front-end content design, amongst some of those shortages and skillsets we're seeing. Marketing employers are also keener at the moment to secure permanent hires with about 70% planning on recruiting permanent staff in comparison to 51% last year. So there's definitely been a I suppose to follow the sentiment in positivity. We're now seeing more employers saying actually want to take on permanent members of the team. And this high demand for talent is really being driven by that combination of organisations hurry again, following obviously a breeze in some places during the pandemic. Others taking advantage of the recovery, seize the opportunity to grow, and that communication that's probably been increased and amplified with their customer, they want to hold on to However, alongside a demand, the talent is a skills shortage and it is skyrocketed. Across the UK, overall 86% of employers said we've experienced skills shortages in the last year, that was last year 2021. And at that point in 2021, 80% of marketing employers said the same. As you can see, in our very short poll survey a month ago, that's gone up to 83%. And in marketing, they've experienced skills shortages in the last year, which is an increase for about 70% from the year before. And it's going to be tougher as you go through the next quick month. So a quick overview on what the world of marketing looks like, just because I thought you might be interested in some very up to the moment data. And it's an exciting place to be in marketing. If you're just beginning, if you're studying, if you're just beginning your CIM qualifications, it's a really exciting place to be. But it has got its challenges with these skills shortages, and it is going to continue to do so as marketing continues to become an even more paramount part of successful business. So let's talk about our survey that we did on equity, diversity and inclusion. Each year, there are key days and campaigns, such as National Inclusion Week, Black History Month, International Women's Day, Pride, Purple Light Up, and a host of others offering individuals and organisations an opportunity to demonstrate their support and promote really discussion around some major ED&I considerations. But we need to challenge ourselves whether all this talk actually is meaningful. To put together the report, we carried out a survey last July, August into early September, so this is about six months ago. And again, a proportion of the responses that were marked is, we've tried to distill down into that data, find some insights to share with you today. The survey was completed by professionals from a range of backgrounds and a huge variety of organisation types and sizes. And this was across both public and private sectors. So let's look at what our report initially uncovered. Across the UK, employers were more confident, 55%, that their ED&I talk translated into real action than employees, which was 44%. But overall, this figure here, 48%, indicates less than half of those surveyed believe that real action was going to take place. It's a very disappointing number. If we take this 48 as an average, 51% of women overall responded to say that their organisation was delivering more than just live service to ED&I, but many individuals from groups who are typically underrepresented, such as ethnic minorities, members of the LGBTQ class community, those with mental health or neurodivergence, were left likely to feel that their employer takes positive actions to improve ED&I. These findings suggest really that current actions are not sufficient. They're under communicated, and they're certainly not landing with and impacting the people who they're often intended to reach. And I suppose against the context of where the benefits of ED&I at an individual and organisation level are increasingly clear and understood, 62% of marketing PR and commerce professionals say their employer actively talks about the importance of ED&I in their workplace. But only a third, as you can see, believe their employer combines discussion with notable action. So in short, the amount of talk isn't there matched by action. And we all know, without action, talk of equity, diversity and inclusion rings very hollow. And a lack of action may even draw assumptions of indifference, which would be dreadful for an organisation when it comes to ED&I. So let's have a look at the equal opportunity and how it feels. This particular slide is across all disciplines. I'll drill down into some marketing specific data on the next slide, but on this slide, this is across those 15 different disciplines, HR, IT, marketing, etc. If we look at the full server results, when asked to consider their own organisation, our respondents felt that the following groups did not have an equal opportunity to succeed. As you can see, those are differing ethnic backgrounds, women, those over 50, and those with a disability. This is genuinely a really disappointing set of data. And if we look at marketing specific data, we can drill down on the slide to how marketeers actually feel. And when I do a round table with four or five decision makers, we have a more open conversation, obviously, because we have more time. Everybody stops on this slide. And I think they'd stop because we'd like to change it. And we have to change it, but we have to accept the data is as it stands. Under half of marketing PR and common professionals do not believe people from all backgrounds will have an equal opportunity to succeed in their organisation, ever. Close to half believe there will be equal opportunity in five years or beyond. 9% believe this will happen within the next five years. It is a disappointing set of data. We do need to take a while to think about it. But we then have to drill down further and maybe look at the factors that professionals feel lead to their chance of being selected for a job being lowered. Now, this is unfortunately purple and pink. And what I mean by that is sometimes it's quite difficult to see what the data is trying to tell us on these two colours. The dark pink is 2021 and the light pink is 20. So if we look at another aspect of equal opportunity, each year we run our survey. We ask the question of professionals whether they felt any factors have led to their chance of being selected for a job being lowered. Interesting for marketing 61% of respondents but their chance of being impacted on identifying factor. This data here again on this slide is for all professions. If you compare the figures for 2020 and 2021, there's been some small improvements across the UK. For example, 56% of professional site ages a factor that they felt led to their chance of being selected compared to 63% in 2020. However, I think we need to be honest with ourselves for most of the factors. There's been a slight negative trend. For example, in 2020, 35% of respondents felt their ethnicity and nationality had led to their chance of being selected in 2021. This had increased to 42%. This suggests that honestly in some areas, things are going backwards despite greater awareness. How can we overcome challenges to create such needed change? Well, here's a list of some challenges that employers anticipate when trying to turn talk into action. So those employers that are trying are challenged. The biggest challenge that employers across a range of professions expect to face when looking to turn their EDI into action is overcoming resistance to change. 45%. That's a very high number. Other challenges include employee engagement. It's not a business priority, and not enough resource being placed to deliver the required action that they want to see happen. But as professionals, what actions would they like their organisations to take? So if I'm at market here, what am I wanting my business to do? On the left, that's the data from the 15 professions. On the right is the data from the marketing community. So the top actions from a range of professions they say want to see is more training for managers and training for employees. Within marketing, there's an even higher proportion that would like to see more training. And this is the highest proportion actually across all disciplines. And across the UK, a further 38% said I want my organisation to review its recruitment policies. Again, in marketing, it's an even higher percentage that wants this to take place and they want it to happen now. There's a variety of other actions that people have discussed. Some included trying to get a wider talent for by maybe looking for not for profit organisations to recruit from. We ourselves at Hayes have joined up with young professionals, which is a brilliant organisation. We've only just begun a partnership with them. And that's what we're trying to do to support our own EDNI programme, which we take very seriously in Hayes, but also to be able to support our customers in their EDNI journey as well. And a lot of organisations are now saying actually what we need is internal EDNI ambassadors. But as we know in our world of marketing, communication is the key. And here, of course, communication about progress in anything connected with EDNI is absolutely vital. And yet, if we take a view on this slide, at either end of the communication spectrum, 45% of marketing peer and commerce professionals say their employer does not share the progress they make. And only 60% say they feel they're communicated with very regularly about it. The remaining balance obviously is somewhere in between. So I think we have to ask ourselves at some stage, what role do we play particularly in the marketing team? We're the custodians of the brand. We listen to the voice of the customer. We're responsible for supporting the culture of a business and setting the values. We need to think about where is our role. But we also need to think about what can employers do to step up their efforts to hire more diverse talent. That really is the key. What can they do? Because just 8%, 8% of marketing PR and commerce professionals believe their organisation's workforce demographic is a fair reflection of today's society, 8%. And over half, I think about 55% of marketing professionals do not believe there are sufficient efforts across their organisation to recruit diverse talent. So we do need to try and find some positives here. So what do we think? The demographic groups of professionals feel our organisation will benefit from attracting. What do we think? What is happening? What can we do? What do we see as marketers and commerce people that we genuinely think would make a difference? Well the demographic groups of professionals across a wide range of professions feel are shown here. Hiring and retaining more people that include different ethnic backgrounds, those with disability, women, those with disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds and those over 50 years of age, you can see here. If I zoom in on marketing PR and commerce professionals, they think their organisation would benefit in attracting, hiring and of course retaining more people from different ethnic backgrounds with 63%. So much higher than all of the other disciplines professionals such as 63% chose differing ethnic backgrounds, we genuinely would make a difference. Those with disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds was 43%, still a very high number and those who identify as part of the LGBTQ plus community, 42% and women, 38%. And those with disability, 36%. Marketeers clearly feel very strongly about how we need to change the shape and the makeup of our teams. So what top approaches are organisations taking to attract diverse candidates? Well the most common approach, and bearing in mind this was last year, end of last year, so you know sort of July, August, September, I say end of last year, towards the latter part of last year when hybrid or remote working had become a huge topic of conversation. I think that's important to bring out here because still after all of those changes through pandemic that we've all worked through, the most common approach that employers were taking still was trying to attract a diverse range of talent, was about flexible working. 65%. I'm interested in that because 65% are going to offer remote working when we move into the new normal. I don't agree with the new normal, I think we're just in what McKinsey's would say is the next normal, who knows what the next one might be. So that's a super interesting point to think about, actually offering flexible working as opposed to just remote, because I think there's a huge difference between remote, hybrid and flexible. Hybrid is what a lot of organisations are doing, obviously you're probably part of that, some days in the office I'm not. Slowly remote, it is not going in at all. But flexible is much more than that, and I wish you had a little bit more time today to delve into it, but I have got more data and information on that that I can send you about the plethora of different ways flexible working can work for those that maybe need more support. A further third, 33%, say they advertise on recruiting platforms, if you can see that now on recruiting platforms that speak directly to underrepresented groups, and I flicked down to that one because that's what we realised, and that's why we joined this partnership very recently, early this year with Black Young Professionals and they're a super organisation, and again happy to put anybody in touch with them if they'd like, and it's been very important part of our growth in our own EDI world. So before we go to the Q&A, I would just like to say that when I've worked with businesses and marketing comms teams, there's always been a great deal of energy and genuine concern but enthusiasm for an EDI program from the marketing comms perspective. Most marketing professionals I speak to want to be part of what is right. Most organisations I speak to, their marketing teams feel that they hold a really important place in the EDI program, the EDI progress of the business. Our own marketing team has been massively supportive in a lot of initiatives we've got. We've got a great pride network, we have some fantastic days of celebration every month, not just the ones that maybe we all know, lots of celebrations for lots of different days and cultural beliefs that I've been unaware of myself and I've been hugely educated the last two or three years. I think also with the other challenge we have around EDI is as I say with the custodians of the brand, we tend to be the voice of the business, I think now as the last couple of years as I said in my world I've seen customers talk to me about hyper digitalisation being catapulted in the boardroom, now is the time I think for us to take responsibility and now is the time I think there's an appetite, there's an openness more than I've seen before around this whole complex issue of EDI and I and I think as marketers and communication specialists we need to take our parts and play our part in that. So I do hope that's given you an idea, we have to say there's a lot more detail and a lot more data we could share with you. We also have other material that we use internally and that we share with marketing managers and marketing communication directors in our support of supporting them in their EDI journey. Okay so we're going to have a short Q&A session and we've already got some questions to get us underway. The first question going back to the skill shortage Claire, so I know you noticed that you mentioned that there was a perceived skill shortage amongst marketers. What sort of technical skills are in short supply and are there any soft skills that are in short supply as well? I think because IBM at the very beginning of the pandemic probably three or four months into the pandemic noticed that they coined this phrase hyper digitalisation actually because a lot of organisations felt that from a marketing perspective they were sort of competitors with their technology. They had the right technology to ensure they could attract retain and build their business from a customer perspective. Actually they realised a lot of organisations realised they simply didn't. What else happened was organisations, a lot of charities, universities and SME organisations also realised that the programme that they and the journey they were on with their digital marketing suite was not progressive enough. So what happened over the last 18 months was an urgent need and supply issues I suppose, skillsets around data analytics but the more important one, the inside part of data analytics, SEO, PPC are also highly sought after and anyone with a skillset or sort of UX UI and web development, front-end web development by which I mean content design. So those are the more technical skills. I mean interesting though, but let's bear in mind though, in the top five job roles for the last year 18 months have been marketing manager and marketing system. There is still a great need for marketers with a depth and breadth and overarching knowledge of the true function of marketing. Okay great. Do you have any tips on platforms to reach underrepresented groups? Well we have as I say Black Young Professionals is an organisation that we've started working very closely with. I would be happy to speak to my internal marketing team, my marketing director Robbs and ask him what other platforms we have reached out to. That's one I've been involved with. There are many and I know actually we've looked at quite a few. So if that individual is comfortable and wants to reach out to me directly I'm more than happy to respond to that after I speak to my marketing director. But yes, BYP is the most recent one we found and it's working really well for us. Educating us to be honest and also for not just for internally, the internal hazy and I, but for supporting our customers in their own journey. Next question is do we think ED and I should sit on the communications desk or on the HR persons desk? This is an oft debate I have when we present this. I think it's a dual responsibility. I certainly don't think it belongs in HR alone where I think for many years potentially it has sat. Because I think as I say you know marketing is so intrinsically critical to the culture of a business and to the external customer as well. It's the voice so I do think marketing has to play a part. I think communications definitely have to play a part because if our own world of marketing don't believe that we're communicated to enough about potentially good stuff happening in ED and I around our business then that sits firmly at our desk. I also think though where we need to look at from a communications perspective is different ways of communicating sometimes the good stuff we do around ED and I. As I say our comms team came up, our marketing team comms came up with the LGBTQ plus land yards for us which doesn't sound particularly exciting but actually when you're in a business of 3000 people as a managing director of the business when I wear my lanyard around the business it does communicate my support to that particular community and I have had people come and ask for a quiet conversation with me because I've had it on. Now that's just a very simple product but that actually came from the marketing team as well expressing support to our own business not from HR. So I think it's a dual responsibility. I think actually every single individual in any business holds responsibility to ED and I but I think comms it needs to take some of that ownership and look at how they can share with their internal and external customer base both the great work that I'm sure some businesses are doing but they just don't express it. Do you have any tips for overcoming the resistance to change? How to deal with people who do not believe that any change is needed? Good question. Well actually I'm taking two of my senior ladies our senior ladies I should say our senior ladies in my Hayes team through a change methodology program as we speak. Now the change methodology program was built for us by KPMG for our very senior leadership team and we're cascading it through the business over the next few years and so what I've started from a personal perspective is is talking about why we don't embrace change so I've picked two individuals who are highly talented but who find change difficult so I've deliberately and I've told them I've been very authentic with them this is why we're going to start together as a team of three because we you know some of us find it difficult to embrace change so actually sharing with the team why change is needed is the most important thing and I do think we need to follow a pattern. I'm as you know Phil I'm a bit more of a deliverer I'm a very difficult salesperson I'm very excited about data and I want to deliver everything. What I need to remember is that I need to actually plan I said I need to shape so I need to start shaping and planning and then deliver and that's what I think market is can be hugely supported in when you're trying to make change with people who are struggling with it. If we can shape the plan with them I don't mean by committee but shape the plan with them with their input and then if we can share the plan with them with their input you find when it comes to delivery that they're keen they're keen to be part of that so I think I would say from personal experience I've had to take a step back and stop trying to deliver and just actually say right let's get everybody that's involved and ask their opinion on what the shape is and why we want to to make the change what the change might feel like and I have to make myself do this because I naturally just dive in actually what does change feel like to you and it feels very different to a lot of people and you'd be surprised how many senior people very senior people really struggle with it and interestingly I think that's somewhere somewhere at the beginning of where change can be difficult in an organization because some of the most senior people in the decision-making places can find change difficult so if you if you were in a position to influence or whatever level and I believe by the way anybody from an associate to a main board director can influence I would I would start with embracing the change myself and then finding people that I knew found it difficult and being authentic with them about that and take them on a journey and it might just be a handful of people who will become your greatest advocates and they will absolutely become your greatest influencers okay great that's great advice um how real is the age problem um I know lots of highly experienced people who indicate now they are over 50 they can't get work how can this be addressed well if we if we refer back to the slide that I showed you where where we talk about that um 32 percent of people believe that their age those over 50 by the way believe their age um has impacted their ability to get a job and 34 percent of women um I think there is an education piece that we all hold responsibility for but I do see change and I don't have data on it for you yet um I am a salesperson not a not a marketer bear that in mind but I do see a change I think the last two years have opened up everybody's uh imagination to the possibilities of what the future could look like the shift in shape of teams how we work where we work when we work so so I do think this has impacted in a positive way actually on all of those um for very disappointing pieces of data and particularly on age I mean obviously you don't have age on CVs from GDPR perspective lots of our organizations are now doing what we call blind interviewing so um from a client CV sorry um so there's no age there's no ethnicity um sometimes there's no education and we're in fact piloting a lot of those in haze recruiting our own people and so I think that there's a flexibility there's a hybrid working model now all of that does help minority groups and I do think that those over 50 have an enormous amount to offer and and I think 50 is the new 30 personally um and I do think that employers have have woken up and are continually to be woken up by the uh importance of expertise and experience and different teams um uh the different makeup in teams is what makes teams more successful so the greater uh the the diversity of your team uh whether it's ethnicity uh neo-divergent or age people know we've got data to prove those teams are more successful so I think it is constantly holding on to that truth and sharing it with as many people as we can and if we are in a position to be recruiting but ensuring that we are doing everything we can to embrace all of those all of those minority groups but I do think I genuinely do see a shift in behavior and from a recruiters perspective because that's what I see obviously um in multiple flexibility that I probably saw five to ten years ago that's great news um okay thank you for that um we've implemented a EDNI committee and ambassador as well as targets however the rest of the organization seems to think of marketing by showcasing EDI rather than driving it what can marketing practically do to help drive EDI in their organizations well if I look at um organizations that I've worked with closely and also taking into account what we've tried to do here um I would I would um I would use that skill that great marketers have which is that negotiation piece um interpersonal skills and negotiation by the way that they are the top two well top two out of the top three soft skills required at the moment in marketing communications the ability to adopt change actually um and interpersonal skills I would use those and I would reach out to the parts of the business that were challenged and I would ask them to to to have ambassadors themselves so for example um the legal team are that your purchasing team the HR community the manufacturing team your engineers whatever it might be we've done um a couple of surveys where we ask our own people to share the data with us um every time we do that data request we're getting a high percentage sharing their personal data but of course that comes down to trust um and the employee's feeling that it's trusted that they are trusted and they have trust in the organization to careful be careful with their data keep it keep it confidential and be careful uh how they value that data so I think that's another message marketing could support is that authenticity that genuine uh desire to be the best place to work for its employees therefore the more involved they can get um one of the simplest things we did do was the lanyards which opened up a whole new conversation um uh in a very public way um I think it's a figure was 63 percent of marketers um don't believe that organization recruits um enough from different different ethnic backgrounds do you think that is reflected in the type of marketing that these organizations might do are they sort of overlooking um you know sectors of the of the population if they don't have diverse marketing teams well I've got a couple of anecdotes obviously confidential anonymous I should say but um I was talking to a very senior comms director um two senior comms directors from two different um higher education establishments and while we were talking about this particular issue they both said the biggest challenge they have is that their current team doesn't represent um a diverse place to be so trying to bring in talent from some of those ethnic minority groups or some of those minority groups between g groups etc is hard because when you're interviewing those those fantastic individuals they don't see a place um where they see themselves so that is a challenge the current makeup of your marketing and comms team needs needs to have a lens on it and also we need to ensure that that that we are showing and showcasing genuinely um our belief in edni at every stage before the interview during the interview and after the interview one of the biggest challenges I think that marketing could look at really is does your um business does your business show your great work you do on edni do I see it when I look look at your organization can I see it is it obvious or do I have to go through the internet page after page after page and then I find some policy that's um I don't know it needs to be practised by you know some policy that's not very um exciting or I can't find it or it's just quite dry to read marketeers as you can see for data wholly support edni and they want to see more of it and they're disappointed with what their community is doing at the moment but in turn for that to change we probably have to look at some of those obvious things such as does our brand portray the image we wanted to portray not just to our consumers but to our employees and to future talent that we want to bring in so I think I think that was it was really insightful of two or three of those very senior commentators said you know it was it was a bit of an awakening actually when I looked at the board uh the panel that we're interviewing for these they were senior roles too I looked across the board and they all looked like me we didn't look diverse we were not a diverse team that were doing the interviewing so why would people want to join our team or believe you know that we were focused on edni so I think that's a simple thing you can look at what what do we look like when we when we're into it and I'm not suggesting for one minute that we portray something that's not true you know if we're not diverse we're not diverse um but we we just need to be able to portray them on the journey you know the truthful journey that they could be a great part of it okay so sadly this is all the time we have for our webinar today um I'd just like to say thank you again to Claire for your excellent presentation um and to the CIM great London group for organising the event we do hope that you have enjoyed the session and found it interesting and worthwhile um we'll be back with our next webinar express behind the curtain and A to Z of arts marketing on Tuesday to April our usual time of 1 p.m you'll find further details listed on the events page on the CIM website where you'll also be able to register for the session so on behalf of CIM that just leaves me to thank Claire once again for a fantastic presentation and to say a thank you to you for joining us today take care everyone and we look forward to welcoming you again to our webinars in the future