 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joyed by my friend Lucas von Gretch Lucas welcome to the podcast Thank you Bart. It's great to be here. Yeah, I I mean we've been talking for a while man And I'm a big fan of what you've been doing with your own series Which we'll talk about in a little bit, but it's it's very cool to have a member of the Gretch family on The podcast which on that note. Why don't you maybe start off by just explaining? who you are and You know your connection with the Gretch family and all that stuff sure and You know, I'd like to thank you for having me on the show and I'd also like to Say on behalf of my family, we would like to thank you for the wonderful job. You are doing With this podcast and it's such important work Thank you maintaining and and you know you you stick at it You've done so many episodes and really Bringing out so many interesting features to the heritage of this instrument that we all all love and I would even you know, I would even go as far as to say that Listening to your podcast makes you a better drummer Interesting understanding drum history makes you a better drummer because it gives you're playing a perspective and a point of reference and you know, so Thank you for doing that and sure. Thank you for making me a better drummer without having to practice. I Appreciate it. I mean not even about my show, but I agree where just looking at drum history It makes you just more obsessed with the instrument which makes you then want to practice which I think being a drummer is much more than just playing it's It's looking at pictures. It's looking at logos. It's looking at old. It's listening to albums. It's all kinds of stuff So I appreciate that that means a lot coming from, you know Someone in the Gretch family. Well, thank you Bart and just to Explain people might be wondering who I am. You know, I am What you would call a modern-day member of the Gretch family. So It's my great-great grandfather Friedrich Gretch who started the company all the way back in 1883 And it's my uncle my mother's brother Fred Gretch who is the current owner of the Gretch company. Cool Yeah, I mean you're you're in the direct lineage there So many Fred's in the company, you know Which that's right quite a few and we're gonna talk about all of them. Yes. Yes, which so on that note you have put together a really nice outline that I have here in front of me to kind of keep track of everything and Just before we start I'm really happy to be doing a Gretch episode because Gretch is obviously Such a classic huge brand, but I think I've only got one specific Gretch episode with John Sheridan who worked on the Gretch book with Rob Cook and Did a wonderful job. But I mean that was like up in the first 10 episodes. So this is we're approaching 160 now So it's been such a long time We're due for another Gretch episode. So Lucas why don't you hop in here and We have this outline we're starting at Gretch in the Victorian age, which is quite a long time ago So take it away my friend and teach us about the way back history of Gretch Well, sure, and you know, a lot of people know that that Gretch is Is an old company. I think most people know it's an older company and they and they think back to Well, you know, Max Roach and Tony Williams and then Elvin Jones and then and so forth and they think it's an old company But I think there's probably a lot of people that don't realize just how old the company is and you know next year in 2023 will be celebrating our 140th anniversary as a family business. Wow, and if you if you look at the year 1933, you know, which we'll be talking about later. It's it's Gretch was already an old company By 1933 celebrating its 50th anniversary. So, you know, so today I just I want to take a closer look at at the really old stuff and take a closer look at The key figures that laid the groundwork for Gretch and what would what Gretch eventually would become in the 20th century Yeah, so so 1883 you said that is our Founding date, correct. Yes, we're gonna go all the way back and I'd like to go back before 1883 to kind of look at what was happening before the company started and We can start in the 1870s where it's my great-great-grandfather Friedrich Gretch who was living in Mannheim, Germany and You know, it's hard to for us to know the reasons why he decided to leave Germany We do know that he had a lot of family members living in the US at the time lots of cousins aunts and uncles and They would write letters back explaining how well they were doing and how much opportunity there was and so we kind of think that This has probably been the main motivating factor for Friedrich to to take the journey and to come to the US So, you know, like many immigrants at the time He had just such a huge network of family members already established at New York and throughout the country. So As a 16 year old he decides to board a steamship in 1873 in Hamburg bound for New York and The ship records tell us that he was alone on the steamship and you know around this time the transit Atlantic journey took about a week and You know, most people hearing this they kind of imagine The Statue of Liberty Kind of scenario, but you know, we're really in the early days of immigration. And so we're 12 years before The Statue of Liberty was even completed So we're really in the early days of immigration where we're a solid 12 years before Construction of the Statue of Liberty was completed. Yeah, and we're a good 19 years before Ellis Island So he arrives at the first immigration center in the US, which was called Castle Garden and We're pretty sure he stayed with his uncle Jacob Gretch and his American-born cousins and so yeah, he had a home environment to live in in the very beginning And in the registries of the time we see that he was listed as a wholesale grocer And we figured that this was probably at his half brother's wine business Which was called William Gretch wines in in New York And you know, we we imagined that he was probably learning the wholesale business and how to Import products from Europe and sell them to the US market at a higher price. Yeah, I mean it's not Drums, it's not music stuff, but I feel like business is business to some degree where you you learn pricing and like you said wholesaling so he I mean things were things were lining up to be a businessman absolutely and and He joins the music business when he joins a company called Albert Hoodlet and Sons Which was manufacturing banjos and drums and he works there as a bookkeeper And that that was his big entry into the the music industry and so He's working at this musical instruments business and he meets my great great grandmother Rosa who's a piano player very musical and also comes from a german family, so you know, they're they're probably speaking german and and there's a lot of German speaking and there's a lot of love in the air and and they get married in 1879 and um You know records indicate that they were living at Rosa's apartment or her parents home They had the same address when they have Their first son Fred Gretzsch senior in 1880 Wow, and then they have their second son Walter in 1882 and these two boys the second generation would play prominent roles in the future of the company in due course Sure. Yeah, that's so it's so cool to just see this though. I mean so you said she was Rosa was a piano player Correct. She was a piano player. That's right. And then the it was Friedrich was her husband, right the the original coming over on the boat, correct? That's right. Yeah. Now was he was he a musician? Uh, we don't think so. Okay So we we don't think so but he had the business Brain going and clearly a go-getter coming over by himself on a boat and all that stuff. Cool So he had what my uncle calls the e-gene He didn't have the m-gene for musicality, but he had the e-gene for entrepreneurship, which is a Uh, a very strong gene in the gretzsch family for shortly so Then in 1883 it finally happens and Friedrich Gretzsch opens his own business called fred gretzsch drums at 134 first street in brooklyn new york and um He would probably be upset that I keep calling on Friedrich because he had anglicized his name to fred at this point As you can see the name of the company and in the company registrations is fred gretzsch Uh drums, so just kind of downplaying the germanists and joining the american club if you will Yeah, well, and I think it's neat to note too that gretzsch started out with drums You know, I mean absolutely because because guitar. I mean there's you know You guys make amazing guitars, but like drums Are the the at the core of gretzsch? Absolutely, um at the very core and guitars would first appear around 1926 so much much later So it's interesting. Um, you know when I when I think about the um The gretzsch business I think I think about The bridges in new york a lot and and how the bridges sort of symbolized Interconnectivity how the bridges sort of symbolized interconnectivity and commerce For brooklyn and for the gretzsch company and it's interesting to think that in 1883 when when gretzsch was opened It was the same year the construction was finished on the brooklyn bridge. Hmm. And so we like to Imagine the celebration there because in in may of that year the brooklyn bridge. There's a huge celebration for the brooklyn bridge the unopening day and it's 1883 and There's fireworks and everyone in brooklyn had the day off and and um the president at the time was chester a arthur who Some people may have heard of not one of the most famous presidents because that was the guy in charge of the time But he's the president. He's the president. Yeah And he gives a speech and you know, we like we like to imagine how I'll call him fred now how fred and rosa Were definitely there and definitely walked across this bridge with their two sons a one year old and a three year old For the first time and and you know at this time The tallest building in brooklyn was six stories high so You know, they're walking Over this bridge and when they're at the center of the bridge It must have seemed like they were on the top of a mountain Yeah, looking looking out and uh, you know, we we just imagine them walking over the bridge on this day and You know, boy, would they be surprised if they knew the heights that their company would achieve in the 20th century Seriously, and they would certainly be surprised if they knew that their great great grandson would be doing a podcast 2022 talking about them walking on the brooklyn bridge an opening day. Yeah, it's um, they'd be very proud of you But I I want to note on bridge Stuff that so here in Cincinnati. There is the robling bridge which goes from Uh downtown Cincinnati over into newport, kentucky or it might be covington kentucky. It goes over But uh, I think john roebling is the one who designed the brooklyn bridge and actually the the roebling bridge here Is a miniature version of the brooklyn bridge So So You know, that's my connection to it. We're all connected. I'm basically in the gretch family. Um, so No, so that's really cool to know and just a picture that that's got to be a proud moment though Just built being in america building up this business kicking things off The business started 1883. So they were making drums right out of the gate. Yeah, well, they were making drums And joes and tambourines. Yep. Okay. So anything with the drums drumhead or a calfskin head And uh, that was the focus uh, the focus items And uh, you know, they had It was a great flourishing business in the beginning absolutely and and um From the start from the get-go and and not only was the business flourishing but the the family was flourishing They had a total of seven kids by 1895 and um, you know, it's a small business You know, it's about 12 employees if we look at 1895 and we see they've so they got seven kids 12 employees and and and if we take a look at this year 1895 It's a significant year because this is the year that friedrich com fred Goes on a business trip back to germany and interestingly enough the night before he departs He writes a will where he You know states that he's gonna give everything to rosa should he die And uh, we always thought that was a little bit eerie that the night before of this trip. He writes his will but he does and Unfortunately on this trip. He gets cholera on the steamship on the way to hamburg and dies several days after his arrival one One month shy of his 39th birthday. Oh my god. What a young guy Yeah, and unfortunately this theme of Gretch Key gretch family members dying at a young age Begins here, you know, our family thinks a lot about rosa at this time because She finds out her husband dies and she's Left with seven children the oldest of whom is 15 years old and a small burgeoning business and You know, mind you were we're still in the victorian age at this time and most people Uh, you know people probably tried to talk rosa into selling the business But she would have none of that and she you know Was very firm in her decision to keep the business But to say that she only saved the business would really be an understatement because it was Her persistence and her ambition Which would soon enough make gretch one of the largest musical instrument companies in the entire country So it's a super interesting Period for gretch for sure. And so she she completely You know, she completely relocates the company from this small Shanti on middleton street and moves it to a larger three-story complex on 104 south four street And there was a lot of talk at this time about There being another bridge Connecting brooklyn to manhattan near broadway And so she heavily invests in real estate around this area near the east river Near broadway This was an investment that of course really really paid off because several years later that that bridge is built Yeah, you know, it's it's at this time shortly after fregg gretch's death that A super influential figure enters into the lives of the gretch family And it's a gentleman by the name of jacob hyman and he is He becomes a border at the gretch house where the gretch family lives and and You know, we often wonder, you know, why you know, he was a successful businessman He was a jeweler and he was in his early fifties and he was retired And was a millionaire, you know by today's standards And rosa was also a successful businesswoman in her own right. She didn't exactly need a border But jacob hyman didn't have a family. So he was alone and he loved the concept of family and he loved children and so He wanted to live with the gretch family so that he could be around the kids and he was Became very close to the to the family and took them out fishing and was always very engaged in their lives and in exchange the gretch family got Uh connections from jacob hyman that proved to be critical for the growth of the gretch company Because jacob was a successful businessman and had You know was a part was connected to the inner circle of the brooklyn banking world And he brought these connections to the gretch family connections that would prove to be super important Later on You know, you think one significant person he introduced to rosa And her sons was nathan jonis who was the founder of the brooklyn jewish hospital and was a prominent us banker and So it's super interesting to think about This sort of unwritten agreement between jacob hyman and the gretch family and one that certainly Had an everlasting impact on the future success of the gretch company Yeah, he ends up staying with the gretch family for 20 years as a border and and When he passes away, he leaves his entire fortune to the three daughters in the gretch family and and And leaves half of his fortune to one of the daughters called herta Herta had been sick and and really sort of struggling a lot with health issues and was a very shy child And I think he felt sorry for and wanted to support her He knew that the gretch boys would take care of themselves So he left his fortune With the girls and left half of it with herta and the other half split among the other two sisters and And the interesting thing about herta is she took this money and traveled around the world and had this incredible life and You can learn about the women of the gretch family from my mother's homepage called lookingoppositely.com Which talks exclusively about the women of the gretch family know very few mentions of the freg gretches Who talks about their wives and daughters and cousins and sisters and and that's a website my mother made and When my mother passed away in 2020 she left behind a book We didn't know she was writing it, but it's called the book of herta Which is the Sort of a mad, you know half a semi-imagined semi factual account of the life of herta gretch Who received this inheritance from jacob hyman? Wow But that's a bit of that's a bit of a detour from the drum history But I wanted to give some family background information. Yeah, and I'll be sure to share that in the description It's it's really I'm sorry to hear about your loss of your mom Obviously, it's it's very cool that she was doing that and because you know sometimes Like the about page on a website of like gretch.com or any or like any of the drum companies sort of sums everything up But there's so many more family members Like uh, in this case a lot of female family members that need attention. So it's really cool. She did that Absolutely. Absolutely. So So we enter the 1900s with really a flourishing Gretch business and we see it's The key players at this time is rosa and uh her two sons uh fred gretch senior and walter gretch and they incorporate gretch in 1903 and With rosa's name listed first on the incorporation pitchers kind of to prove to as a statement of who's in charge and um, you know again 1903 we see this theme of of bridges and and it's 1903 where You know, we see that the williamsburg bridge is built And representing further interconnectivity and commerce for both the gretch family and brooklyn in general So things things are really moving for gretch at this time and um in 1912 they Expand their headquarters from a three-story complex to a larger Or they they add on to an adjacent seven-story building um at 104 south four street and uh, things are really growing fast moving very quickly Um, and if you look at the gretch catalog from 1912, it's 184 pages long It's selling everything everything except harps and pianos. Basically, you know banjos guitars mandolins harmonicas brass instruments string instruments you name it and um, and it's really only manufacturing drums and guitars and sort of importing everything else So that's interesting. I mean and and that's such a big factory. I don't know if at this point gretch was claiming this But there's a lot of in these old Newspaper articles I've been looking through there's a lot of times where they'll where a lot of drum companies like ledi Or Ludwig or gretch. They'll they'll all claim to be the largest drum manufacturer in the world or It seems like how many Can there be because everyone seemed to make that claim But I know gretch really was I mean huge and you see the kind of illustrations of the big huge The factory and all that stuff. Yeah, and and and they can advertise anything You know if they feel like they're the biggest company then they can say that and the advertising You know, hopefully it won't be fact-checked a hundred years later No, it's like the internet though where like you can say whatever you want But but truly they all claim to be the world's biggest but that's that's marketing Yeah, so, um, I guess turn, you know, there's a drum history pockets turning the drums, you know, we're 1920s where we're in the Or the 19 teens were really still in the ragtime era and then the very early days of jazz and and the drums at this point Or branded is 20th century. So they weren't calling them gretch drums. They were called 20th century And you know, it's before real drum sets are set up. So we're selling The 28 inch bass drum and and the 12 little 12 inch splash attached to that and the snare drums are flatter You've got, you know, three by 15 and five by 16 kind of dimensions for the snare drum and You know, um, I know you've talked a lot about drums from this era and and how interesting they are Yeah, but so it wasn't gretch. It was 20th century was like the brand Right on the drums called 20th century. That's interesting Yeah, and it wasn't really until the 30s where my grandfather William gretch really said, hey, let's let's start making some gretch Instruments, you know and calling them gretch instruments that came a little bit later. So interesting and so in this early 1900s I mean Ludwig and Ludwig was kind of in Chicago making things happen But they're so far apart. I mean new york and chicago aren't that they're not the opposite sides of the country But they're not this wasn't something where people are shipping things back and forth Was there a lot of competition at that point? You think or was it kind of everyone had their own region that they worked? Well, I mean in new york, they're you know, they're the big wholesalers at the time Was bugle lies and in Jacobson was a big wholesaler There was the Bruno was the name of another big musical instruments wholesaler in in chicago. There was the tongue brothers So there was a lot of wholesale competition not much manufacturing competition. I think at this point, you know Of course that would heat up much later Yeah, but that's an interesting thing to differentiate because of wholesaling versus manufacturing wholesaling would obviously mean that they in their 180 page whatever Book would be selling things a lot of things made by other people that they were just kind of Sourcing and put out there, but drums. They were manufacturing. Yes drums and guitars at this drums and guitars and banjos Yes, correct. Okay, cool. Cool. All right. Well, yeah, keep going from there Okay, so in 1916 Gretch begins construction of a massive 10 story manufacturing complex and This is like a major major urban renewal project that had A lot of support a lot of support from the municipal government at the time and and this area Near the east river on broadway was kind of a dormant area. So they wanted to reignite this area if you will and So this building was huge still is huge. It's still there And it's it's got 20,000 square feet on each floor And it's got windows on three sides of the building. It's just a really large building and of course when you Drive from manhattan to brooklyn on the williamsburg bridge. You can see it on the right hand side It says gretch building number four. Awesome. And is it condos now or something like that or yeah, so today it's it's luxury condos And I know 50 cent live there. Maybe still lives there multi-million dollar price tags on these things and Yeah, you know, and it's interesting to think this required a lot of financing and they had connections From jacob hyman and connected to guys like nathan jonas and the bake bankers And they were able to finance the the family was able to finance this building Which at the time cost three hundred and seventy five thousand dollars, um, which in today's Money is about 10 million dollars Just to give you a perspective obviously 10 million dollars will probably buy you one or two apartments in that building today That's new york real estate. I know things have changed I also wonder and uh, not to keep derailing, but I mean that's right in the middle of world war one There's a lot of more to that than than um, just You know a quick conversation, but I wonder if they felt anything any world war one kind of uh, affecting their business at all with them having german heritage and all this stuff if that was a factor at all Um in their day-to-day, I would say so, um, you know at this point in time It's fred senior and his brother walter who are really running things and rosa's step back and You know as the u.s. Entered the war the year after they build 60 broadway The u.s. Entered the war in 1917 and there was definitely a lot of Anti german sentiment going on At the time, um, you know, you see a lot of companies at that time kind of downplaying their germaneness And um, you know, you see, you know one of the banks they work with was called the german savings bank in brooklyn And they they immediately when this starts happening the world war one They changed their name to the lincoln savings bank just to sort of Downplay things a little bit classic. Yeah And um, you know, it's really interesting because it's it's this bank the lincoln savings bank that we see my great grandfather fred gretsch senior who's also running gretsch at this time He becomes elected to the board of this bank. He was really heavily involved in the banking world and um But it wasn't all about banking for him and he knew He had to keep gretsch innovative. They had to come up with new stuff and it's in this year in 1918 that we see Uh him come come up with the first multi laminate bass drum hoop Which is using this multi lamination process that they they had come up with and and what this does It makes You know hoops and shells lighter in weight and certainly more robust and stronger Um, and up until this point drums were just steam bent Um From a single piece of wood. So this was a very innovative process and we're really proud of this innovation because it's An innovation that's still really regarded as the industry standard today Yeah, I'm sure and I mean 1918 we're approaching the 20s, which I think a lot of people um Sort of put the 20s as like uh, this is when the modern drum set really kind of came together because you know the 19 teens was pretty disjointed to some degree I guess with like things are still getting figured out things are new You know the drum set being put together as a a unit, but we're getting Into that, uh, you know what we think of is a drum set. Obviously, it's not double bass drum huge power toms But it's it's starting to look more like a modern uh drum set Yeah, absolutely absolutely and it just keeps evolving and you know as we as we move into the 20s, it's um You know, it's also the wholesale business is booming and the drums are developing and you know, that gretch is selling over 3000 different instruments and accessories And uh, you have and you have entire factories in germany and mark neukirchen Manufacturing solely for the house of gretch, which really gives you an idea of the volume that was going through The gretch company at the time so And it's it's in the early 20s where you have this it's basically a partnership between the brothers fred senior and walter the second generation guys and um in 1924 walter the the younger brother decides to leave gretch with another gretch employee by the name of william brenner and they start their own company called gretch and brenner in 1924 and This company actually stayed in business until the 1950s So it stayed in business for a long time and and sort of Competed with gretch, but also worked with gretch, you know They came out with their own line of drums called rocket shell drums Which was basically made at 60 Broadway. They were basically gretch drums, but they put the label on it Um, so they were working together in a way But there was definitely animosity between the two brothers and the family story says that when walter gretch Eventually passed away. Someone told fred gretch, you know, your brother walters died and he said I don't have a brother walter Oh my god. So there there was some wow tension something really Broke them up and and it's very sad, but obviously family businesses can be complicated Yeah, especially when you have two brothers and two ambitions and two egos. It's it's a whole world of complex complexity Yeah, I mean It really is it fits into the classic drum story though to have people splitting off and there's a gretch and brenner There's there's like there's these they use the name, but they add something on to it And then they're using the same manufacturing. I mean, it's very much Uh in the classic drum company story to have something like that happen It's in the template. Yeah Yeah, but that's really truly sad when you think about it about family members like that not working together And especially the history of how I mean because it's really an old I mean it it is a well-established business at that time. So it's a shame they couldn't um Work it out, but obviously things things happen like that. Um Okay, so yeah, keep keep going from there. Yeah, so it's my great grandfather Fred gretz senior who has at this point after welter leaves. He has sole leadership of gretz by the mid 20s and and it's in this decade where he really begins to start grooming his two sons The third generation or you know, he had three sons actually so he had Fred gretz jr. Which is his there's another Fred gretz for you And this is the third generation's Fred gretz and his name his name is Fred gretz jr. That's what we call them Okay, and then my grandfather william gretz and the third son is richard gretz and Also in this third generation there there are three boys like in the second generation, but you see this When family business is like this There often isn't much enough room for the third boy. Yeah, the third youngest. So there's room for the first boy Some room left for the second boy and then by the time the third boy comes around, you know All the exciting work is is being done already By the older brothers. So, you know, richard went on and had just a miraculous career with klegel lighting company and Very interesting guy and he would actually end up outliving them all And a great friend of the gretz family throughout many many decades Well, it sounds like he and like all of you guys like he had the e gene as you said to be entrepreneurial Which man, that's in your that's in your blood To like take something make a business out of it And it's also funny that if I ever get confused I can just kind of say was that fred gretz? And i'm probably going to be right That's cool. Okay. Well, just to clarify, you know, the founders we call them freedrich gretz Just to simplify things and then the second generation owner we call fred gretz senior And then the third generation owner we call fred gretz jr And then my uncle who's the current owner we we call fred w gretz Okay freedrich fred senior fred jr Fred w right got it. That's it. Okay. So it's in the mid 20s where we see fred senior from the second generation grooming his Three sons fred gretz jr. William gretz my grandfather and richard gretz for future leadership at gretz and they would spend their summers traveling to the gretz offices in paris And in the german town of mark noi kieschen, which is where so many of gretz suppliers were based at the time mark noi kieschen is Just an incredible place. It's on the german check border And today you still have over a hundred instrument manufacturers there, you know handcrafted Manufacturers and I would strongly encourage anyone who comes to europe to to visit mark noi kieschen and To check out the museum there. It's a musical instruments museum Which sort of goes through the history of the handcraftsmanship since you know the 16 1700s Awesome. Can we pause there though? So what is happening with europe? um with Manufacturing and all that can you kind of give a brief explanation of like how it's working simultaneously like our things Being made in europe and being sent over here or is it like that's manufacturing for the european market? Or how is that really working? Right? So it's all evolves around mark noi kieschen. That is the absolute center hub for european for musical instrument manufacturing I would say even in the whole world not just in europe So, you know the gretz family when they were importing From as wholesalers it was all coming from mark noi kieschen They even opened an office in mark noi kieschen to handle purchasing and duties and shipping and taxes and all that So, you know that that was mark noi kieschen is really the place where the many, you know, handcrafted Quality instruments were being made, you know at a low price So they could be imported and and sold to the u.s. Market and sold for a profit Okay, so let's move forward from there. So we were in the 20s. Uh, they are um I feel like just the world in general like everyone's having a good time jazz is exploding they're You know people which which obviously with jazz being so popular It means that more people see drum sets and drummers and they want to buy them Who am I gonna buy? Oh, here's here's a gretz drum set that or 20th century. I guess at that point Yeah So pretty cool pretty cool time. Yeah, and it's in the 1920s where gretz really begins because of the things you're saying they begin to take drum production very seriously and they They recruited drum builder from england a gentleman by the name of richard dixon Who was working as a builder at the company hawks and sons in london and this was a company that manufactured They specialized in military drums with cast sterling shells and so In the 20s and the 30s and the 40s richard would go on and play a prominent role in the the manufacturing of the early broadcaster drums cool, and um, and so What we see going on in the 20s is is of course the cymbal wars which we should talk about Yeah, you know, this is a This is sort of a heated trademark battle between the gretz families and the zilgin family Over the zilgin name and you see gretz had had begun importing zilgin symbols into the us market in 1895 And played just a huge role in introducing zilgin to the american market. So In 1928, uh, fred gretz senior the second generation fred He registers the trademark names a zilgin and k zilgin. He gets these names under his control um, and A year later avadi zilgin decides to move his company from turkey to the us in 1929 and You know, he's obviously disappointed because he can't sell His own name the the products that have his own name on it And uh, this begins a heated battle between the gretz family and the zilgin family But you know, so gretz has ownership of the the a zilgin and k zilgin brand names two separate brand names But because gretz is only making k zilgins They're not they're not making or manufacturing or marketing a zilgins So they're not legally allowed to keep the name they have to release it because they're not using the name actively Which means avadi zilgin gets a hold of the a zilgin name um, so The result is you've got the gretz family selling k zilgin symbols and the zilgin family selling a zilgin symbols for many years and you see in the advertising things like, you know, um You know, they kind of throw a bit of mud at each other saying, you know, we're the real deal You're the imitation uh, why accept imitations when you can have the real thing And um, you know, be aware of imitations and so forth. Yeah, and and because k were being made in turkey being imported by fred gretz and then a zilgin were being made in quincey massachusetts by The zilgin family with the secret but being made in america. So the whole thing would be These are real turkish symbols for k, but a would be We're the zilgin family making it because then the k family sort of turned into The dolgarians and mackayl and those folks who then took the secret and then that turned into zilco and later on all that stuff so You did a very good job of kind of summarizing that in a nice Because if you read it sometimes you're kind of like wait a minute who who did what and there's there are court documents That you can find which I remember doing a zilgin episode Going way too deep and looking at that Uh, because the legal battle went on for a long time Uh into the fifties if i'm yeah, and so in 1955 avadi zilgin tries to get control of the k zilgin brand but He simply lost in court because gretz had legal ownership of the k zilgin brand so You know gretz could just continue selling k zilgins and yeah, and you know, you you wonder, you know, how did this How could how did this end? Horrific battle Yeah, and so what what happened is it ended because in in 1967 gretz is sold to baldwin Baldwin maintains the rights by through but because they bought gretz They also bought the rights to the k zilgin brand name. So baldwin then continues to Give the k zilgin brand name back to the zilgin family Which is right Things seem now like it's just zilgin. It's just gretz. Like there's less Disjointed split apart. That's k period zilgin. That's a period zilgin where it's like Wait what? Like it's just zilgin. So that's good to know good good on baldwin for you know, kind of ending the madness and setting things straight. Yeah, well, there's there's you know There's the business side to the story, you know businessman behaving The way they do To make as much money as possible and then there's the moral side of the story and who who is who really deserves to have the brand So there's different angles to it for sure Yeah, so, you know returning in the 20s we see You know, here comes the first gretz guitar 1926 and you know, we could make another podcast About gretz guitars. We'll just keep it on drums here. Yeah You know despite this starting with guitars, we see the 1927 gretz catalogue Which is my all-time favorite gretz catalogue. This really has a heavy emphasis on drums So um, and it's here in the 20s Um in 1928 that my great-grandmother charlotte fregretz senior's wife. She passes away at the age of 47 And um, and uh, she's the mother of the two future gretz presidents william and fregretz junior and Yeah, and so moving forward in time, you know in 1929 We've got the stock market crash which triggered the great depression and really set the tone for gretz in the 30s So, you know as we move along into the 30s We've got the rise of swing music with you know, louis armstrong and benny goodman and duke ellington and We're really talking, you know big bands here and you know, as you know, big bands play lots of different instruments You know, you've got the section You've got saxes and clarinets and a brass brass section with all sorts of horns and rhythm section with drums and bass and pianos And and gretz is making all of these instruments or are Selling all of these instruments So it's kind of a fortunate turn of events for gretz that they suddenly The music business is suddenly really pumping with all of these instruments which they're selling in and a large volume And new york, I mean new york is a hub for all this so absolutely and and just like recording quality is getting better I feel like people are becoming more um Modern day what we consider like celebrities where you kind of like you might see these musicians and idolize them And you want to get their instruments that they have it's it's big change from early 1900s to 1930s I mean, it's like a different world. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And and so it's around this time that You know, this era is really it's it's frag gretz senior the second generation. He's really Starting to groom his sons in the 1930s and because they're they're adults now his two boys primarily the first and second son frag gretz junior and my grandfather william gretz so and um My grandfather gets sent to chicago to to run the midwest office to handle everything west of ohio and um, and and we hit the year 1933, which is our big fiftieth year celebration Uh, and you know 1933 the radio city music hall opens with the radio city music hall orchestra and none other than the great Billy Gladstone as its principal percussionist Yeah, and you know, billy was just a world-class snare drummer and and also a world-class inventor You know, he invented things like, you know, bass drum spurs and Silophone dampening switches and things we're using today for sure and Yeah, and um, you know and the patent that that would really pay off for billy was was his three-way Tensioning system, uh, which would be used on the famous gretz gladstone snare Yeah, which their chet falls lorano has a full episode about billy gladstone, which is worth um I mean he he obviously deserves and and he got a whole episode because billy gladstone is just one of those people where I think in that episode I kind of said like like george way or these guys who were just like behind the scenes like inventors who like Really changed the game with their The way their brain worked a drum is a relatively simple instrument, but Little things can be improved upon to make it better and stronger and more user friendly Um, so anyway, check out that billy gladstone episode, but so the gladstone gretz Partnership, I mean those are famous. Those are iconic Oh, yeah, very rare snares. So i'm gonna just back up a half step to chet falls lorano Yeah So chet is amazing. I love chet. I love the work. He does. Uh, he has covered done so much extensive research research on You know billy gladstone and chic web most, you know, a lot of it around the 1930s um, you know chet We're so grateful to chet and the work he's done. You know, this is his, uh chic web book Yes And you know spinning the web here's a picture of chet on his chic web drum set and uh, you know, this was the Gretz drums book that chet chet actually wrote So please do check this out. It's a great history book about gretz and I just wanted to You know guys like chet falls lorano and it just and you Sure More chet have a special place in our heart. So I just wanted to say thank you to chet for all of the work He did I I don't have the billy gladstone book on my desk, but it might be in my bookshelf Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. He's the real deal and really knows his stuff I need to have him back on for a chic web episode. Uh, because please do Yeah, I will work on that you you have reminded me. So, um, yeah For those of you who don't know it's episode 133 with chet falls around on talking about I appreciate that because I absolutely will not remember which is the numbers So I have it in my notes here. So that's awesome. Okay. So maybe real quick though Just touch on the importance of those gladstone Gretch snares because gladstone snares went on. I mean he made his own snare drums, which are like the holy grail basically of like Drums, I mean they're they're you know, this is gene krupa's gladstone. This is louis belson's gladstone everyone Super famous had their own but but the gladstone gretch drums were a little bit different So it kind of in a nutshell. What's the story with those? Yeah, well, maybe I think people have heard, you know, the name gretch gladstone But you know, I don't know how many people actually know what it is But back then of course drums were made with calfskin heads, which would go out of tune really fast And so you'd have snare drummers in the orchestra pit where there was very little room Playing a snare drum that would go out of tune You know a half hour into the show and it would be needed They'd have to tune it on the fly and because there wasn't much room in the orchestra pit They weren't able to turn the snare drum over And tune the bottom head so the concept here is billy gladstone created this concept where you can tune the snare drum The bottom and top head of the snare drum from the top of the drum Uh, and this was done with the special it was three-way tuning system So you could you know by turning the tension rod on the top of the snare drum you could tune the bottom head And the the drum it was the drum key that was essential It had three different heads on it one head could Would tune the top head and if you use the other head it would tune just the bottom head and if you use the third head It would tune both heads simultaneously Uh, and this was a big hit among orchestra drummers You know at the time it was completely made out of metal It was very expensive at the time, you know at this time Drums were going for about 30 snare drums were about 35 a pop and the gladstone snare cost a hundred dollars So wow, but you know it was it was it's kind of marketed towards the Successful orchestral snare drummers. Yeah, you know The top guys, right? So and and so this was uh, you know 37 38 and and and Gretz took this the success of this gladstone marketing name And extended it to include an entire drum set with the great chick web as its main endorser And you know, you talk about inspirational drummers, you know chick web for me is probably personally You know my my the most inspirational drummer for me on on a personal level Because he was just born into a life with the cards completely stacked against him Yeah, as an infant he fell down some stairs and crushed several vertebrae in his spine and this developed into um tuberculosis of the spine And stunted his growth and left him with a sort of hunchback appearance and But despite all of this he was able to go on and really rise to prominences in the 1930s as the orchestra leader of the chick web orchestra and They were the house band for at the Savoy nightclub on Lenox avenue in Harlem And uh, he joined forces with Ella Fitzgerald and together they became international stars with the a tisket a task it their big hit And um, so his gretz gladstone kit was was really an iconic kit. Um, and I guess, you know You know, I can show it here, but I know that most people are listening in the pod But there yeah, you get the An idea and it's a 20 28 inch bass drum So a proper bass drum nine by 13 and then the floor time is my favorite floor time size 16 by 14 So that's 16 deep 14 wide. Yeah, and uh a six and a half by 14 gretz gladstone snare, of course Yeah, iconic and he yeah, again, we'll there will be a full episode on chick web All right, so let me ask you this though. So are we still 20th century drums at this point or are we Gretz drums, right? So, um Gretz american in the 20, you know, I think in the 30s, you know, they're they're marketing the drums In in the 20s and 30s. They're really marketing the drums as Gretz american Is the name of the drums and and it's in the 30s where where Broadcaster begins as well Um, you know, this is really the 30s is really 35 36 they get introduced They don't appear in a catalog until about 1939 so Got it's been said before on the podcast But the the whole broadcaster thing Radio king all of it you can kind of put together with because radio Was the the way to get reach people, you know, they would broadcast from these hotels and they would have these people would listen So that radio theme uh was super popular ergo the Uh broadcaster but with a k Yeah, and so it was the you know, it was the the medium the media of the day was was the radio, but um, so my grandfather william gretz who was president from 42 to 48 Uh, his wife my grandmother silvia gretz was a broadcaster studied broadcast journalism at northwestern university And it's my grandfather who really started the broadcaster brand and i'm certain That he thought I think maybe he asked her what should we call this new line of drums? She said just call them the broadcaster. That's kind of what I Imagine in my head, but who knows who knows what it is. It's a it's a great name I mean, it's it's it's hard to deny that it's just And so is radio king. So is a lot of other ones from that that time but broadcaster. It's just like it's just cool You know, yeah. Yeah, well, we're still we're still selling a lot of broadcaster drums. That's exactly Yeah, you know and uh Just going going back to chick, you know the the one cool thing I want to talk about what chick was how um How battle mad he was, you know, right when you talk about the the legend of chick web and he loved to do drum battles against Other prominent drummers and other prominent bands, you know, and and uh, it's a very competitive guy, you know in 1937 He invites the benny goodman orchestra with gene krupa on drums, you know, there's two band stands at the Savoy nightclub. So you know got chicks orchestra on one bandstand and then benny goodman's on the other with gene krupa on a Slingerling kit right in 1937 And they do battle and they're switching off and and you know at the end of the night Uh gene krupa famously stands on and benny goodman's bandstand and and bows to chick as if to say You're the king now, you know, that's awesome admits defeat You know, and it's gene krupa. It was just one of the greatest drummers of all time Sure, but these guys always seem to have a bit of a mutual respect for each other Which people do today as well, but it was like Uh, it was different. It was like we're out here. I mean they're pioneers. They're they're paving the way Yeah, I mean it was respect for sure, but you had to earn it, you know, you really had to earn that respect back then and and um, and so Uh, after that battle He, uh, invites campasie to come and do battle Uh shortly after and and of course count campasie's drummer was was joe jones. We call today papa joe jones And um, you know, you so you can imagine you've got Papa joe jones doing, you know, draw a drum battle against chick webb and uh Count basie, you know had billy holiday singing at that time and chick webb had elefants gerald singing So they're probably going, you know competing as well And you can just imagine, you know, and you read articles from that time and it says well Maybe campasie finally defeated chick web orchestra and all this, you know back and forth But you think like, you know the people that really won that competition or the people that watched got to see this performances between these incredible legendary figures and certainly Two of the greatest gretch drummers of all time arguably. Yeah, so yeah, it's interesting how it it's not recorded It doesn't live forever. It was a one-off. It was there there for that night They do the battle But then it probably spread in all the newspapers like some guy kid was on the street going count basie was taken down or count basie won Like in that voice They all had that voice Which you listen back to old stuff and it seems like they all did but uh, it's different than today Where it all was was saved forever But um, let's let's talk more about broadcaster because this is Iconic for it to still be around today is clearly it was it was important Yeah, well, you know, um It's it's here in the 30s, you know that that that gretch really introduces broadcaster for the first time as you know appears in the catalog in 1939 and um You know, it was really my grandfather William gretch who really was pushing, you know, we need to make our own brand We need to make gretch gretch You know, we shouldn't call it these drums gretch american or 20th century. They should be called gretch I want my name on this these drums and then he's pushing things along in that direction and um, you know When I talked to my uncle fregg gretch, uh, you know, I had a conversation with him and he he was so funny He said, you know, look as you want to see, you know What the first broadcaster drum looked like and he shows me a banjo And I said what are you talking about? He says look at this banjo It's got a 14 inch drum hoop on a die cast hoop on this banjo, you know And and he says this is the first broadcaster, you know this and of course the broadcaster would go on and have die cast hoops on the 14 inch snares And that was an extension of the banjo basically so that that concept was just applied to the broadcasters the first broadcasters and And the early broadcasters had toms tacked on the on the bottom heads Which is a technology that obviously didn't age so well tacked bottom heads, but uh, you also saw these on the gladstone drums and you know the first um, the first gladstones were also three plies just like the first broadcasters And you had 301 hoops, which was just the single flanged on the toms and the finishes were ducal white ducal ebony Or you could pick any color and have a ducal Two color combinations. So um, but you know also like As you know in the late 1930s, this is also where you see the brand's Catalina and renown Up here for the first time and these are also popular price drum sets for students or younger kids That maybe didn't have the budget for a broadcaster or a gladstone kit, you know So today and so for folks listening to this who play a broadcaster or a renown or a catalina It's just really important that you understand That when you're playing these kits that you're really engaging and connecting with a heritage And a legacy that goes way way back in time Yeah, so I have um A couple of them actually rob cook gave me where it's like I think he reissued. I think it's 1943 Uh a catalog which was red and you know the kind of thinner one and it was a reissue of that And I remember when my son was born I was like reading it to him, you know, he wasn't paying attention He was like three weeks old But I was reading through that kind of like for something to do while holding a baby a couple years ago And uh, I remember coming across catalina because I used to have a catalina mod kit Years ago, which was awesome. It was so super affordable. It was great. Um, and just being like, oh my god I didn't know catalina went back So long. I mean this these I like that you guys have continued with the names and they're they're so Um, they've been so successful. Why not? Why change it? I mean catalina renown broadcaster These are staples of the company that have been around for a very long time Sure, it's just it's a part of the uh, the tapestry of the grudge heritage, you know these names and and You know the the catalinas and the renowns back then they had temple blocks You know, they were a bit different, you know, they've evolved but the name and the general concept has has stayed Yeah, for sure All right, so things are soon going to change though because it's an interesting time in general though because 1929 to I guess 1939 I guess is sort of contained considered the great depression. So things were Rough all over but as we enter in the 40s Uh, let's take it from there and and what what happened in the 40s for gretch Sure. Well, you know in the 1940s we see the you know, the war production board comes long and basically tells all manufacturers that their Products cannot be made of more than 10 metal Obviously, this puts a damper on the whole gretch gladstone snare drum project Which was entirely made of metal a lot of metal. Yeah so You know our friends at slinglin made the rolling bomber And ledi had the dreadknot and you know, drum brands were coming out with these names And gretch had the the gretch defender kit Which had wooden lugs which were painted silver to look like metal lugs And wooden hoops and even had a wooden snare stand so And the war production board assigns gretch to make Because gretch had the technology to make hoops out of wood Gretch is assigned to make these wooden hoops for gas masks Um And because gretch could mass produce these hoops So the day shift would come in and work on musical instruments from 9 to 5 and then from 5 p.m. To 1 a.m The shift would come in and solely manufacture these wooden small wooden hoops for gas masks Wow Awesome I'm sure maybe john probably referred to it john shared and probably referred to that in his episode And I probably forgot but I love hearing that stuff about what they made After hours like rogers making the gauges for like airplanes or whatever. It's neat to hear Just because they it's such a special time. It's like you have the ability to do this You're going to do it and then the l 37 Edict or whatever where the the 10 percent metal it's Man it really I feel like everyone it kind of leveled the playing field a little bit for drum brands where None of you were using metal you all have to make it work Good luck, and you're gonna have to make war specific items as well on top of that. So Tough times. Yeah, and and you know, I think You know, the focus was I think people were very enthusiastic about doing whatever it took to help the cause You know, I think you know, I don't think people were so focused on making sure their drum company was profitable In these few years, you know, it was you know, let's win the war You know, so it was kind of a You know, they they did it with it with a spirit that that we're not familiar with today, you know Sure And and you you know, you talk about it's so interesting because there there are so many prominent figures Coming into gretch later on after the world after world war two Guys like duke kramer and phil grant and and freggrets junior who were all war vets And these were the guys running gretch in the in the heyday in the first golden age of gretch in the 50s and 60s And these were tough guys, you know, the greatest generation You know and you talk about, you know, if we ever were put Placed in a boxing ring against these guys, we'd be lying flat on our back after 10 seconds, right? These were these guys were tough and they were You know The greatest generation so yeah, yeah, and they'd see they had It's obvious they had seen some stuff, you know, I mean they had done some stuff and very very Scary stuff. I'm sure and when you're in that, you know in war So to come back and have to handle a business probably seems like, you know, I I got this No big deal piece of cake. And so in in 1942 During the war that's when freggrets senior the second generation fred retires And um, he leaves the company to his oldest son freggrets junior But shortly after pearl harbour happens and freggrets junior leaves and joins the navy To to fight the war in the pacific And so his younger brother william gretz who's my grandfather runs the company starting in 1942 and You know, this is the year also where my grandfather married silvia gretz my grandmother In december of that same year. So pretty cool, you know And and so freggrets junior goes to the pacific and he didn't talk much about The war when he came back, but he served with distinction as a commanding officer in the navy and And he was a part of the construction battalion in the pacific. So they were also called the cbs So they would build His job was to build landing strips. So, you know, there was this famous battle of tarawa in world war two which was just a gruesome battle and The us won the battle took over the island the next day freggrets junior Arrives with the construction battalion and builds the landing strip On tarawa and so that's that's what he was doing during the war geez That's again, it puts it into perspective Uh making some drums and some banjos is a little bit easier than dealing with stuff like that So, well, you know, your family, thank you again I think everyone can say like it is the greatest generation. So it's like, you know, that service they provided is huge absolutely, absolutely and So this is we're in the 40s here and and, you know, basically marketing broadcaster exclusively after the war It's it's all about broadcaster and we've got the great joe jones is our main endorser But there's lots of great drummers in the 40s Dave tough, who of course with Dave tough, we introduced the 20 inch bass drum, which is also another first, you know, where and You see louis belson. So in 1947 Louis belson is is looking To find a manufacturer that will help him build a double bass drum set and he comes to gratch And the production manager at gratch at the time is a gentleman by the name of bill haggner Who would be the production manager throughout the 50s and 60s as well And louis says, you know, bill, I want I want this drum kit. I wanted to have delegation. It says, okay Well, let's see what we can do. You know, I'll see if I can put one together And then louis says, you know Not only do I want two bass drums, which is a crazy idea, but I want this drum set to glow in the dark When I perform and so bill Goes out and gets his hands on this like white phosphorescent paint and in the spray booth back then The drums and guitars were Were in the same room. They were sprayed, you know, lacquer sprays and paint sprays were it was all happening in the same room so bill sprays louis double bass drum set with this white Phosphorescent paint And leaves it to dry overnight and he comes back the next day And all the racks of guitars and all the walls are just covered with this white phosphorescent paint Which is just floating in the air throughout the night and uh But in any case the kits made and this is 1947 and and a few weeks later at the paramount theater louis belson performs Wow on the first double bass drum drum set and It's glowing in the dark. Huh? That's crazy because you don't really in videos and things like that You're not a lot of times things that earlier black and white and you can't really tell A detail like that unless you hear an account like that Um, which man louis and that is very early. I mean, I think there's there is debate over who was first with double bass But in my accounts that I've seen I mean if that's 1947 that's pretty darn early on maybe someone put two bass drums together before But a manufactured kit as a double bass drum set Uh, because later there's like rufus speedy jones sam woodyard did it But I think I mean I would I'm in team louis of being the first to actually Play a manufactured double bass kit, um, which gotta love louis, you know, thank you bart Okay, so let's just uh, let's talk quickly about kenny clark and then we'll wrap it up with the death of my grandfather. So Okay, so it's also in the 40s that we see the arrival of kenny clark who is playing with the lonius monk at playing very frequently at minton's playhouse and Kenny sort of kenny clark is giving credit for starting bebop or bebop drumming, you know, up until His innovations, you know swing drummers were just playing kind of four on the bass drum and uh, kenny changes all of that and takes takes it to the next level by Playing the ride symbol heavier and comping with his left hand on the snare and dropping bombs with his right foot on the Bass drum and completely turns that all around and kenny is one of our great Gretch drummers Legacy drummers that we're very proud of and very proud that he was playing a gretch. So yeah, yeah, he's unbelievable and It's I wish we had this video technology earlier because getting you know, starting with kenny and louis We do get more video documentation to be able to see these guys which clearly nowadays with youtube and stuff Influences people and recordings are better and you can hear things differently So we're we're lucky to get guys like that where we can actually hear it and see it for sure and um You know, we we just had so few people actually seeing these amazing performers, you know Who saw papa joe jones play live who saw chic web play live who saw kenny clark play live, you know So few people, you know But it makes them kind of mythical and it takes them to a special place in our minds and and We know they were doing some really special things They were innovating on a level that we can't imagine Happening today, you know, and um, and that's you know We really see bebop starting and bebop is just going to play a huge role in future decades for the gretch company Uh, moving into the 50s and 60s so and um, so Was removed progress sorted to the to the late 40s, you know, so my my uncle Or i'm sorry my grandfather william gretch Uh Becomes president in 1942 when his brother goes to the navy and he he stays as president when when my uncle returns from From the war he he's into the banking just like his father and is focused on this banking business And my grandfather's the president and the plan was that my grandfather would continue being the president But in 1948 he dies at the young age of 41 um And um, and it's at that point when my grandfather dies that his brother then leaves banking and and comes to the gretch company full time And he leads the gretch company from 1948 until 1967 when it's sold to bald one Which would be considered there's many golden eras of gretch as we you and i have talked on the phone many times before this But there's lots of gretch is so old. There's tons of golden eras Um, which in the 50s we're getting into another one But uh, which for the sake of time, we will save that for another episode. Um, which I would love to have lucas back So if people like listening to this and want a part two of this or kind of picking it up there Let us know i'm sure people will so obviously lucas would love to have you back But god 41 years old. It's such a shame. I mean the life expectancy of people You know, I can't imagine that i mean i'm 32 that's like i'm not that far off from that It's just terrible to think of someone dying so young but clearly he had a very big impact on the drum world Um, and is a part of drum history. I mean, we're talking about it many many many many years later on a podcast, uh, I mean Such a cool family story. I mean you're you're a lucky guy to be in the gretch family for sure Yeah, I feel very lucky to be in the family and I am very very proud to be in the gretch family and You know, our family has a lot of key members Dying at very young ages and and there is a sense of tragedy to it's just so much of what happened in in the gretch family And you know, but we've continued forward as a family owned business and as a legacy and you know next year We're gonna we're going to celebrate our 140th anniversary As a family business, you know in 2018 we were celebrating two, you know, 135th anniversary You know every five years we kind of do a celebration to celebrate the the longevity of the company and it's amazing and it it's also It's a bit daunting because With every celebration every five years, you know In a way the stakes get a little bit higher, you know, because you know, you know, you can You can screw up a family business. That's 20 years old or 40 years old But if you're the guy that screws up a family business, that's 140 years old Maybe that's so good The stakes are higher and and the responsibility of the family to To keep the heritage alive and to talk about the business and to talk about the history You know, I I for me, it's very important Especially the early years to to present the story so that people playing gretch drums know What what what happened to gretch and what was going on within the organization and with the family and the role that the gretch family played Yeah, so yeah, which this has been an awesome look at the family I mean, obviously on some episodes you can go super deep into what lug was used in 1935 what hoops were used in the 40s, but Uh, I mean for an hour plus episode It's nice to just kind of get an overview of the family from a family member Which as we wrap up lucas, we got to tell people about your gretch heritage series that you have Produced with gretch. Obviously that's on the gretch youtube channel and all that stuff Which I will share in the description But give us a quick rundown of that so folks can get excited to watch it and learn More because you your production value is and the video is is more than I do And it's just it's it's awesome. So tell us about that Wow, thank you Bart. That's really nice of you to say that and I really appreciate you saying that Yeah, so the show basically was it's we made a total of 11 episodes It's available on gretch drums youtube and it features, you know 10 15 minute history lesson and then we have we had mark schulman on the show We had cindy blackman centena on the show We also had some fun dealers the guys from pro drum hollywood and and you know Steve Maxwell was on the show and we're just basically geeking out about gretch Drums and we also pay a visit to the gretch drums factory and talk with paul and josh and the production guys They show us, you know a quick little inside view of what's going on inside the drum factory So it's it's a fun show and it's available now on gretch drums youtube channel So yes, and I will share it And it's I just kind of think of like this podcast is being a broad overview of a ton of different topics But if you know you want to zoom in further on just gretch This is where you do it Directly from the source from a family member. So as usual, it'll be in the description for people to check out and later in the week on Thursday or friday I'm going to put up a cool video and a podcast short episode the news stuff I've been doing about a cool article that I sent to lucas about Kind of a bandit and a robbery and the gretch factory and all this stuff Which I sent to you and you were like no one has seen this We haven't seen it. No one saw it. Yeah, so hands up Exactly and and I'll I'll release it to everyone later in the week So you can hear that that'll be it's its own short little thing that should be in your podcast feed Or on youtube as well with the visuals so you guys can check that out But on that note lucas my friend I feel like it's been great to get to know you because we've been talking for a couple I would say year or two now of just like we should do this We should do this and now we've actually done it And it's been great and like I said, you got to come back for another one to finish Gretch from the 50s On up to today. We'll do that a little bit down the road But again, let people who are listening let us know find it at the post on social media or email me or message me or something Let me know that you enjoyed it and then I'll make sure to have it happen sooner than later With getting lucas back on so um, yeah, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge here man. It's been awesome Well, thanks bart and I would love to come back and continue talking about uh, my family's history And thank you so much for giving us the platform to do so really appreciate that