 Thank you so much and thank you to everyone who's been joining us on the streams. We love that you're accessing the space in whatever way is supportive for you. Even if you're watching this after the fact we're grateful for you and we hope that it fills you. My name is Rachel Spencer Hewitt. I am the director of programming and resources at PAL. And this is the final session for final day this year of a full week. We're so grateful for the engagement of our, not only our facilitators but our session participants, those of you who are coming into our spaces and trusting us with yourselves. And we just want to honor you right now and to prepare the space I would like to pass it on to Timania for our land acknowledgement. Hello, my name is Timania Garza and I am the PAL National Director of Community and Justice Initiatives. And I'm also the Philadelphia Chief Representative. I'm coming to you today from the land of the Lenny Lenape people, whose historical territory includes the places that are known as Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New York, Long Island, and the Lower Hudson Valley. For more than 10,000 years the Lenape people have been stewards of these lands, as well as the River of Human Beings or the Delaware River. Over the past 250 years, many of the Lenape people were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands and dispersed throughout the country, though some families remain. These families continue the traditions of their ancestors to this day. The violence that removed the Lenape people from the homeland is a powerful part of the history of Pennsylvania. And we acknowledge that in this moment and that we work and live on these very lands. This is the story of our entire country. We encourage you to learn about the lands where you live and work and the history of the people who live there before colonization. Many who still live there today, though they are often starved of the resources they protected for so long, including access to housing, sustainable food practices, clean water, safety and the land where they once lived with their families. This information was provided in part by www.lenape-nation.org. Thank you. Thank you so much, Tamanya. It is received, and we acknowledge that with you. I'd like to share into the space our community agreements now, as well, because we want to make these safe spaces for all of you. As a session participant, you commit with us to welcome all caregiving responsibilities and realities in the background or foreground of any meetups, phone calls, and exchanges and embrace your life in our pursuit, our collective pursuit of productive and supportive practices. As a session participant, you commit with us to creating a transgender and non-binary affirming space, a language that includes but is not limited to mother, parent, dad, caregiver, et cetera, applies to any individual who identifies with them. As a session participant, you commit with us at PAL to creating spaces rooted in justice and anti-racism in our structures, practices, policies, principles, and producing. And as a session participant, you commit with us to creating safe and supportive spaces for disability access and inclusion, and all access needs present in the space. And with the final community agreement, before we commit to applying them actively in this space, I'd love to share some safety for our virtual gathering. We prioritize, here in this space, safety over civility. So if at any point in this session you feel unsafe, please speak up for your own safety using your voice, the chat, or even private messaging me or a colleague, if that feels more supportive, whether it's Zoom bombing and obvious, or whether they are aggressions that might be micro to the outside, but are not micro to your experience, we will honor your experience and engage immediately. And we truly do deeply mean that your safety is more important than the flow of conversation, so please prioritize that at all times. And with that, it is my pleasure to welcome into the space a wonderful colleague, advocate, artist, friend, Karen Olivo, KO, welcome. Many of you may know her work on stage and off stage and in being a voice speaking into our fields of equitable structure, creating access, and so I extended the invitation with great expectation for a keynote of any form on centering humanity. And in this discussion, it became clear that the most supportive way would be keynote dialogue. And so it is my pleasure to share this space with you and I would love to share with everyone participating. We talked about how it would be very comfortable for both of us for an active chat. If you want to share thoughts in the chat now what is bringing you into this space, what's on your heart when we think about caregiving and and thank you for the correction that they in the space with with with all of us, and, and to also share in any takeaways that you have during our conversation or questions. Thank you. And I would love for you to invite you to self identify as well so that we can all engage, engage with you directly. Hello, everyone. My name is KO usually they pronouns just recently and I've changed them today them so it is, I just want to, I just want to offer you all of the grace because it is, it is ever changing as I'm learning. And I am on the land of Lenape. I am in a rehearsal studio. I'm a caramel colored individual with dark curly hair that is short and dark brown eyes. I'm also wearing the coolest T shirt I've ever seen, which is has Selena on it. And I felt like that was the way to go today. I'm trying to look to those who inspire and to bring that energy into the space. I also just want to say I'm coming into the space today, hot off of rehearsal so my energy is like very, I'm trying to like, not dampen it but I'm just trying to like not have rehearsal energy. I'm very glad that I have my sister racial here to ground me and moments in which the adrenaline takes off. Yeah, thank you that it is a pleasure to be here. Absolutely. And that's a great offering to introduce that this space is about, you know, we talked last night about entering with who you are where you are, so that we can talk about where we want to go. So I just want to say welcome to your rehearsal energy sleeping all of us know so deeply in our bones. Probably better than conference energy or keynote energy. It's human energy. And so that's a perfect place to start. And so I would love to introduce to folks, perhaps something that I admire so much about the work you're doing but that they may not know to share a little bit about how education is is a is a playing a role in your day to day these days and in your passions. Yeah, you know, I think that one of the things that I'm realizing is that to take a stand in a way that is impactful. Really, it's in modeling and modeling is something that I learned in teaching. I had a, my parent was an incredible teacher. And so I saw it from a very young age this sort of, you know, the demonstration of the difficult task. So that's that was my foundation in terms of making art, and having that in the household, and having that be revered. That's very important I think that that's probably when I think about like my trajectory I had an artist in the household as a parent. And that sort of like frames everything. And now, you know, having I worked in the business for like 25 years on stage. And I've always felt that the in our growth and in our evolution, being in a classroom is then the most effective place for me. Because I have so much to teach but because I want to be in a learning space. And students promote that they drag you in whether or not you want to, they challenge your mind. And, and you have to sort of reestablish for yourself what your ethos is consistently and clearly. And that is something that I, I feel like in this moment in this sort of renaissance in this like global evolution of self and artistry, I have to be in that space so that I can truly hold myself accountable to the things that I want to put out into the world. So, you know, I've been in, I've been working in since August of last year, I was teaching virtually. And it has been the saving grace for me I also, along with teaching I actually went back to get the rest of my degree so I was like teaching and a student. Which is really funny I'm thinking about it here just yesterday, Rachel I, I applied to graduate. So, I'm realizing during this social uprising global pandemic, the shutdown of our industry. I went straight into the classroom to teach and to also be taught. And, and I think that that says everything I think that that put that's like the mission here. It's easy to think of things breaking apart, but there was a part of me that, before I actually knew it that knew that you know things are falling apart but you have to get to the place where you're actually going to start building a skill set again. And doing it going on the fact finding mission, the adventure of trying to like dream up something else. Yeah, that's where I've been. That's incredible. And first of all, congratulations for your graduation. Oh my goodness, huge accomplishment, huge accomplishment. And to know that you are, you know, occupying the spaces, both as a teacher and a different spaces as a teacher and as a student, and that you've introduced to us this idea of the, the integral asset of having a parent and your life, and now that it's a great pleasure to you. And now to know that an active space can be in what you pass on to these younger students. It's just such a beautiful example of the intergenerational beauty and community that we could have. It's just a microcosm like, of what it could be and just honoring all the caregivers in this space or all the teachers or those of us who feel disconnected even from community. That's what investing in a culture of care, I think should look like is what you've discovered is recognizing who's gone before, and what you can do for those who come after, while still saying, and what do I need. And it sounds like you were just following your, your instincts and not even knowing that that was what was in front of you. I would love to hear a bit about your, your journey in terms of being in this industry and what you wish you had known times when you realize that you had been conditioned to sacrifice yourself for the work. You know, your early experiences and whatever you're comfortable sharing, even just in broad strokes. Yeah, well, I think that there, it's an important component, having a parent as an artist didn't give me all of the agency that I would need because my intersectionality is so vast, right so I mean even as an artist. I was, I was watching my artist parent fight battles about, about race, we were in the South at the time and so it was always very present in my mind that if I was going to do this thing, if I was going to cultivate the superpower of being a storyteller that I would have to do so in a way that was like vastly different than anything that I saw. And I used my parent as a model in terms of being almost ferocious in the search for knowledge and you know, being courageous in making choices. And so going out into the field, I recognize because my educators never looked like me, and they didn't come from my lived experience and they didn't, they weren't speaking specifically my language they were speaking an artistic language that outside and didn't center my experience. I knew almost immediately that I would have to shift. And I grew up in a very different time so you know code switching with something that I learned almost immediately. And, and I think that that's kind of where I started from a place of not listening to the deep desires of KO and a little bit more of like the skill set that I had honed being pushed to the front. And I think about participation what you're you're talking about you know I had participation in this industry for 25 years but the, I did not have full participation. Right, so I was like coming into this space for the skill set. And I was also, I was giving more weight to the material the product that was being asked of me to cultivate and collaborate and, but I never really felt the agency completely to bring the whole self in. And where that sort of comes into play is you know, being gender non conforming and really being able to step into that at 45 is like, what's happening. And I, and I, I think the sort of shutdown for that space and that time to be quiet and actually listen to myself. But, you know, I ended up on a track that would have me sort of hyper sexualized in almost every position that I was in. Then, you know, thus reaffirming sort of the, the, the code switching and the masking and what do you need me to be I'll be that. And, you know, overall, I feel like it could have been, it could have been a lot worse, but there are these key moments in my life in which I realized, you know, the body is very important to me, obviously, that I realized that the things that the, that the artistry can ask of you physically are are incredible I like to say that you know being specifically musical theater is like trying to find a marathon and formal where. And, and it is. So I like I can, I was conditioned to do hard things to my body because the skill set is that right. But there was this other thing that I think is kind of what you're talking about which is like I lost the desire to be a human being and execute it. And that is conditioning and that has to do with like my internalized capitalism that has to do with seeing success dangled in front of me. Yeah. And then going like oh that everyone is looking at me saying yes do this do this you get there if you keep doing this and it was taking me further and further away from this like this. The touchstone that is me and you know that really came to head I think about in 2016 when I had already like sort of moved away from everything. And I was like living in Madison, Wisconsin and I was dipping in and out of the industry trying to listen to myself. There's, excuse me, there was like this very pivotal moment in which my body was telling me something very specific. I denied having a child because of the way that the industry operates. I was on I was on a path. I was going from one show to a next and every single time I was sort of like leveling up. And so having a child was something that I really put very far behind, even though it was like my first desire my mother will tell me like my imaginary. My, you know, imaginary playmates were my husband Jack and my, my child that was named taco. I am an eater so I love tacos but anyway I mean I was at five at four I was thinking of like how I would be a parent, and how I would hear this child that was coming out of my body before I knew I was going to be a former, you know. So throughout my career I was just sort of putting that in the back burner and like really holding it away because the space was not provided for me to contemplate what I could do as a parent, and as this practitioner of art. And then there was this moment in 2016 where my body was saying, Okay, you found the partner that you want to spend the rest of your life if you want to have the child and we went to start to really like, we started that work on having a child and my body was like your window was passed. Not only is your window past but now your body is sort of like rejecting. You know what was happening and I was, I, you know, I have this superpower of growing tumors, I, and they were filling my uterus. And so the doctors were saying you know, at your age, we have choices here we can start like trying to work to remove some space that the uterus can actually hold a child, or you know, you're going to get to the point where it actually becomes a liability, because I do have cancer in my family. And so, once that I would hit that premenopausal state, we would really have to start thinking about a hysterectomy to keep me safe. And at that point, the actor was like step aside, KL, let me, let me think about what's best for the product maker. It was like I got that information and then almost immediately afterwards I got this offer to do a bucket list production with like people that I was like in my whole life I would never I would be able to work with these people. And I made the decision that was best for the career, because I had already been doing it so long. And I, I remember the day that I looked at the start day of rehearsal. And then I called my doctor and said, if I was to get a full hysterectomy, how much time would I need to recover before I could dance. And the doctor said, I don't understand what you're asking like someone who's obviously like thinking about the human being first not like the career, not the, you know, trajectory of career. And I remember saying just like, let me handle this. I mean, I know what I'm talking about. I was like just how much time do I have to have. And I remember her saying six weeks but truly the body needs eight to 10. And I said, I can do it in six. And at that point, my doctor was like, I can't tell you what to do afterwards but I'm going to tell you if you're going to hurt your body. And so I made the call to remove my chances to become or I shouldn't say become a parent because I am a parent now, but to have my own child from my body. And it was conditioning. It was, it was like these systems that I had let grow and live inside my head for so long that told me that these were my only choices. And then afterwards, after the dust had settled and it was done and I had done the production and that, you know, the show wrapped and so everything starts to like, Oh, you're back in reality again. I had a moment of, Dear God, what did I do to my body in the name of a show that would close. And that sticks with me to this day because I'm a strong individual, you know, I feel like I really do stand up for myself and even I was like, sort of drug back into this place of not having options and not advocating for myself. When posed with this thing that I had valued so much which was a career and making art. And that really did it shifted something in me so much that I spend my days now, you know, Rachel, we spoke about this I actually did say, not being able to have a child from my own body doesn't mean that I don't get to have children and so I go into teaching for this very, very important thing is that I knew as a child, five, six that I had something to offer. And I wanted to cultivate a relationship with, with young people and I wanted to watch them grow, and I wanted to help them grow. So when I removed that option for myself. I decided to take the next option which was be a parent to every single student that you find. And I am ferocious in that way I care about them so much and I watched their careers grow, and it is the only way in a pretty negative situation I would say it could have taken me down that I've been able to find a positive. I, I'm not able to have a child from my own body but I'm able to parent now, all of the children that come into my classroom. And it's about that I make to them and I think that that's what saved me from making a bad decision even worse. I don't have the guilt and the shame of doing it because I tried to live in the light part of the decision. And, and I keep pushing forward towards that. Yes. Huge yes, and I want to lift up a phrase that is just sticking in my heart through the story that you shared to introduce it which is developed a skill set and such a strong attachment to the industry we all do that we start to lose a desire to be a human being. We're executing those skill sets. And there's so there's so much happening in the chat right now to have folks relating to that and your story of we are an entire community has either lost touch or lost desire with being human beings. These careers and skill sets for ellipses what question mark and so moved, first of all, by the generosity of your story and your experiences and deeply because they reverberate throughout this community of the choices that we all make, even against our own bodies for for careers or choices we make on our own careers to like cut ourselves off from community that fills us to follow a path and just the amount of sacrifice that that is at our feet right now for this community is is human. The sacrifices human and this idea of being in of moving into the lighter part who shared in the opening session just I'd love to hear more about now how you center access and how you listen to that instinct yourself when you're talking about moving into the lighter parts of that story. And sharing that deep knowledge and that experience and not letting it be defined by shame but now be defined by space occupation and movement forward. What is what is listening to you now when it comes to your body and your identity and your choices and desires. I mean, wow. Yeah, there's so there's a lot there. I feel like there. If I'm to be really transparent, I didn't know I want to say at the during the shutdown will start from there because I feel like that's kind of where I cracked open. It was walking into virtual educational spaces and watching how students claim to they were in this younger generation just understands that and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we left them a crumbling planet right so they're just like, I'm going to take every single opportunity to take up as much space as possible, because I don't know how much time I have left. I really do think that's like the subtext in the way that they step into the spaces and watching that it was very like, I opening and liberating for someone who felt like I had, I really sort of had my, my hand over my own mouth. So watching them do that and then being able to sit in that and hold them in that and reaffirm that it was like talking to. Oh, that makes me really like talking to the younger part of myself, but I had not afforded that to you and that helped me grow into being able to listen to my body. To ask myself the question, you know when someone says like what how do you feel about this and you hear it and then you're responding to it before you've actually asked yourself the question, like really slowing everything down. I have a friend who says that slow is sacred and just like letting the penny drop for me. How do I feel about that and not answering until I am so sure about how I feel about it that started happening. I feel like I've stepped to this day I mean I feel like I'm slowing down but when I actually slow down it's almost like I shoot forward in, in terms of productivity because I know exactly what I want. I know exactly what we should do. Because I'm really checking in, really listening to my body breath has been huge. So I'm thinking about something about what you just said about like how we sort of strip ourselves of this humanity so we can step into these spaces. And the thing that is blowing my mind and the it's the younger generation that is showing me this is that the thing that makes us worth watching on stage is not the skill set. It is the magic that lives within us right that's why I mean there's not a child that you see playing that you don't stop and just go. That child is completely invested and they are alive and they are boundless. And that's the thing that I'm like, I was I'm thinking about like, I could have been and I will be an incredible asset to this art form. When I remove the idea that I have to strip away my humanity when I drag it on stage with me and I drop it in front of me and then I work from that, and I use my skill set from that. Then I actually become electric. That's the I think that's the it thing that people talk about. And, and I see it in students students who are like not ready to drop things and become a musical theater student that are fighting. We have to keep encouraging that for them to think outside of the box we all know in this, you know, two years that we had it wrong right we were we missed a lot of things. So what is it for us to remove hierarchy and remove status and to blur the lines of teacher and student and to say you have this, you have this you still have this pure connection to the other side. Bring it with you in here and I will use everything that I have age and skill set to help guide you and to help mold it so that you never lose it, and we only strengthen and go up from there. I feel like that's the innovation of our industry and that's the innovation of our artistry when we talk about even like being humans in space. That that's where I feel like I am going and that's, I mean my students are always like, I'm always like you can't get it wrong. No, no, no, no, no, but we can and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, not by my my rules, and you, we've already established that these rules that we've been living by, I'm not only did they only, they limited us, that's the truth. I think about the amount of people that didn't step on the stage, who are not who denied access that had incredible stories to tell, who had lived experiences that could have changed all of our lives that we've denied in spaces and so now I'm like, oh, if we're going to do this. Let's really question all of that stuff and let's start building pathways for this new way of storytelling and these new people. I think that's the thing that's gonna save us. And I know that there's lots of acting techniques that would say, you know, you have to sort of like split yourself down the middle and leave the world outside. If I leave the world outside, if I leave KO outside, you have nothing in here. You have a robot. You have a voice and a body that you can manipulate, but my essence, the gold is standing on the other side of the door. So we have to make space for that. And that includes how we exist in the world, who's in our home, who's staying at home that we're actually holding in our head. Our responsibilities that don't end when we decide to step into the space to make art, that can actually, instead of being a deterrent or a distraction, can actually be fodder, can actually like lift us up, can give us inspiration. I think that that's like, that's it. This being a human in space and then wielding your artistic sword is the way to go. Yes. Huge yes, Anne. And so many yes, Anne's coming from the chat and just really appreciate so much introducing into the space for this conversation, the idea of going slowly at the top. That has surprisingly been coming up, I guess unsurprisingly in retrospect, been coming up in every session this week in centering humanity. And it was even asked like, well, how does PAL expect to like continue to grow and advocate? And Tamanya, who shared the, who's our director of community and just initiative, shared lane acknowledgement was in a session with us talking about how we take the time at first and it's the same experience. And then there's this switch that flips and suddenly it goes and it takes off because everyone's on board. No one's hanging off the train and we're like, oh, we have to like make an unexpected stop because we left a door open. Like it's that we like we prepare ourselves, we gather our community, we check in, we look at the map, where are we going? Where do we want to go? And then work with alacrity, still giving yourself a chance to fluctuate with that speed is so stunning. And then this reminder, it's like so one-on-one, but like I took my breath away that we don't go to the theater for the skill sets. We don't look at art for the skill sets. It's where are the people? Where are the human beings? And I want to honor and move into this next inquiry, this, this reality of how you are finding spaces in working with your students that will also provide healing for your younger self. That's something I really too, this is the topic that's like we're, we're kind of, I guess rattling both of our lungs, but like the work with pal very much does that for me as well. And I guess just appreciation for this invitation to acknowledge that you don't have to be, you were talking about the exhaustion of like being an advocate, like making change outside. But I was just to hear more of your thoughts of anyone in the space who would love to be an advocate, encouraging us in the direction of going toward our own healing and not at the cost of it, even in change-making. And just whatever thoughts come up for you at that. Yeah. I also want to say to many, is there anything that you wanted to add? I know that I saw you on screen. I was wondering if there was something you were like. Deposit. Sure. I mean, I don't know how I could add. That was so incredible. But I just turned my screen on in case there was going to be a question. Yesterday in a session, I had stepped away for a second. My mother had made me tea because I had been in front and I stepped away and then Rachel talked to me and I was like, oh no, I had to run back. So, I mean, but if you, as you had so graciously open the space, I put that in the chat too. I want to make it emotional. I'm in this moment giving my younger self a lot of grace for the permanent things I get to myself for very temporary jobs. For the ways I allowed myself to be told not to listen to my body and not to listen to my true self and not to listen to my caregiving journey. I was so taken aback in terms of time, you and I were going through a lot at the same time and we're almost the same age. And I nearly missed my window chasing that carrot of the dream and the established. And I'm a director. So, all I could think of in my younger days was I can't be a director, I'm a mom, I can't travel. I can't, you know, like so, and I want to be a mom, but like, I can't. Like I'd have to get to nothing, you know, whatever. And if I, you know, and as soon as I get to the next and the next and the next, then I'll have time. And there was never time. And I just was so close. I was very close to making a very permanent decision for a very temporary job. And so, I'm trying to hold myself, I have a lot of regret and shame about that. And I'm trying to uphold myself in this moment. And thank you for that Grace and saying all you said because I feel like in theater, we are so taught to internalize that. And once we do it and we're held to that decision, like, well, how dare you? But also like, that was the only way to be in this space. That was my ticket here. You know, I had to be better and faster and stronger and smarter than all of the other people who were invited here to stay. And that didn't include a family. And I was talking to someone, Noel actually Diane Johnson, who facilitated the opening keynote about that. And we said that at some point, I sort of had to take it by the hands of me. Like, if I'm not intentional about my family journey, I may not have one. And I mean, well, that terrified me in the way I was intentional about my career and intentional about my brand and intentional, you know, and I don't think anyone ever sent me out and said that. Like, if you don't give this intention and love, it will no longer be yours and or you could miss an opportunity or, you know, and everything you said about teaching. Yes. Yes, yes. Thank you so much for that. I just want to thank you. Yeah, you know, this, how do you like cultivate this thing where we give ourselves permission to like heal in time as things are still coming at us? Cause like, look, it hasn't stopped, right? Right. I'm going to be so honest. There are times where I feel like I can do it for myself. And then there are times where it's like, I have that cognitive dissonance of like, no, this is not what's actually happening and that other things sort of steps up in front cause it's a muscle that we've honed, right? And also, you know, I don't know always how to dial down that voice that says you're already not good enough to be in the space if we were to believe the white lens, right? And these faces that we still walk into sometimes really promote that, right? So like that thing that has kept me safe and has kept me successful and it kept me moving takes over. And I, like, I'm not faulting it. I'm trying to learn how to like go with, you know, it's suggestions, but I really, I'm feeling this sense of my body tells me if I take the time, for the longest time, I was like, oh, I meditate. Like when you really stop and listen and when something is going wrong with your body, you also, it's like your ears become really tuned to be like, you know, I just had a surgery. If I don't really listen to how my body is reacting, I could have an infection and then we could. So there's like this thing where you have to like learn how to listen to your body, how your heart rate is changed. All of these things that actually tell me a little bit more about like, when I need to slow down and be intentional and sometimes ask for help or ask for reflection, because I'm still not great at it. You know, Rachel, we talked about before, like one of the, I drive so hard to the coot when I'm with my students because I want them to, I want them to feel like being empowered and advocating for themselves is not just an option, it is the only option. So I go really deep in because it, you know, obviously trying to correct this, you know, the smaller version of myself, but a lot of times they think, oh, you have it figured out. And you know, I often tell them, I'm not the oracle. No, I have decided that when I hear that tiny voice in my body saying something, I go, shut everything else out. What are you saying? I'll wait until you want to say this louder. And I keep going back and back. It's the gut and my gut saying, no, there's something wrong. But that person did this or this moment doesn't feel right. Any of those things. And, you know, it's not just in my art. It's in my work, in my work with students, it's in my life, it keeps me safe as a gender nonconforming person of color in spaces. You know, that thing, that spidey sense, that thing that I just, now I just like, I shut it all down. It's a full stop. Somebody's talking and we need to listen. That has been the only way that I've known in moments, this is not something you feel from. And Tamanya, I just want to say something. You said something about like, looking at how, if I don't pay attention to my family, they may not be there. That is so real. And so like the only thing that really ends for us is the show, the job. Like no show stays, we go on. We. And if that's not first, we've lost sight. And I think that that's the thing. When we talk about caregiver needs, we talk about like bringing humanity. I mean, y'all, look at this world. Like if we were thinking about people, most of this would not be an issue. So it's a no-brainer to me. This is the only way. And that doesn't mean that I know how to get there. It means that I am devoting every single day to listen to the voice, to listen to others and to grow and find and question what feels like the moment that thing wants to come out of my mouth. I'm like, oh, wait, how do you know this already? Let me question how you got there. And then circling back and being like, do I really believe that? Is this what I really want? Okay. I like to say that the Senate floor, my head is the Senate floor and there are lots of voices. But there's really only one person I should be listening to. So I have to just like wait for it to like calm down. But I just, I thank you for that because we run so fast to an industry sometimes and to jobs and work that we think we'll actually affirm who we want to be. But we are, we're already that perfect person, you know? And it's like in our kids, it's in our partners, it's in our parents, it's in, you know, our community. They're already telling us that we're worthy. And for some reason, we keep thinking, I need to get on a stage and I need to do this thing to make sure that I am, the spotlight is not gonna give you the thing that your home can give you. It's just not, it won't, it never will. It's fictitious, it's smoke and mirrors. It's in the person you're leaving behind to go to the stage, that's where your worth is. And I'm still grappling with that. I'm still trying to like hold that and make that a part of my process. So I thank you so much for bringing that. Absolutely, thank you so much, Jamanya. This is a constant contributor to this conversation in such important ways. And it's just so evident to me that the conversation this week, how common we're all grappling with being in a place of learning. As well for this path to progress, to where it's not that we don't know what needs to be done. I feel like if we're listening to folks with access needs, communities of color, BIPOC leadership, particularly we know what needs to be done. But if we don't know how to get there, the first thing is to embrace the lack of knowledge because it's either the stress of needing to be perfect first or the stress of needing to act like we know. That's where some really deep harm can happen. So I love this idea, you know, Palace is like, ask what do you need, what do you need? When it comes to collaborating with each other, but also the best practice for that is to ask yourself that you're highlighting. How can we ask that of our colleague if we're not asking that of ourselves? And maybe that's where the real deficit has come in. That's such a difficult phrase for our time because if we really asked that question, we'd feel it too. And what happens when we really ask that question of ourselves? Huge yes and I would love to, you talked a bit about, and I love this learning place. Yeah, we've just got some stories sharing and that I'll just give some voice to. I had no intention of sacrifice in my career ambitions as I thought I might have to. And I thought I can handle both and very strong. But the truth is that I could not stay on the same trajectory as the industry currently exists will be in the kind of mother I wanted to be. I'm still using every ounce of my super strength on this unpredictable journey of motherhood while keeping myself fed. And I know that is the right trajectory, not the other superficial one. Thank you so much for sharing that into the space. And to anyone feeling this who feels torn in all the ways, I just wanna see you and hear you and uplift you. Yeah, I would love to talk about a little bit more. We talked about occupying places of light. If you're on this journey, some of us are maybe curious about this journey to listen and say, wait, let me check in, let me go slowly. What are your thoughts in terms of finding spaces that will also support you in that? So that you're not the only one who's keeping for yourself and a complex prompt and offer, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, well, I loved a model. One of the things that I think, I said before that I'm in rehearsal right now for something and knowing what I know about what I've done in the past and what I don't wanna duplicate and how I wanna keep creating more space for myself, it was very important that I feel like at the beginning of last year, I took a really hard hit in a very public way by like putting myself out there and not realizing what I was doing. And so it like, I still have lots of scars from that because I don't think that we really, someone asked me, they're like, oh, you know, wow, you did that thing, you must have really thought hard about that. And I was like, no, I didn't think about it at all. I saw people hurting, I saw, and I'm speaking about like speaking out about injustices in our industry and people not saying that it's enough is enough. And I didn't think about it. So then like, now I'm realizing that there, I created harm for myself in that. And now I'm having to like sort of backtrack and one of the steps truthfully to being able to heal from that was to put myself back in an artistic space in which I was, I actually have to show up in a very like predominant way. Like I have to, you know, this piece that I'm working on makes me be present every single time. I can't hide anywhere. And it was finding the individuals that I could trust as human beings first. I wanna say that. I've chosen for myself for the rest of my life. I will not step into a space in which I do not feel safe. And that means I actually have to know, I have to know the person. And then once I know the person who sort of like, who has the most power and who's putting things together, then I will trust their bedding of the other people that they put in the space, right? Or no one's perfect and things will happen, but it is the bare minimum that I will do for myself. Also in ways because given how I've been very vocal and very present in taking specific stances, now I know that there's like a host of people who actually watch to see what I'm doing. And not in a way that is, it doesn't feel invasive. It feels like, you know, what path worked for you? Let me see if I, let me try it out. And so now I'm very clear about like boundaries, people. And I know that the room, like this room that I'm stepping into, I know that I am held. And I know that my full self can be there because we've taken so many precautions to make that the foundation. And then we're gonna make art. It's almost like the art is like, oh, the arts can be good too. And I don't have a problem with the art being last on the list because I trust that the humans and the building and in the room are so fantastic that only good can come from us. And that's the part of living in the light. It's like, I'm believing that we are all really pushing towards the same thing. And so it's almost like I can rest and know that they're going to uphold like this, this very personal ethos of like, we come first. Not just me, we come first. That I watch people taking care of themselves too. And then I'm like, take care of yourself. Go get some water. You know, this is too much for you. That's it. But you have to be careful. I mean, careful, you, when we know what we're doing with art, right? We have this thing that tells us, this is how I do it. You have to be careful that it doesn't step in the way and say, no, this art is good. Well, if there's art that's really good that I can't be a part of, I can't because the room's not safe for me. There's not enough scaffolding to hold my full self. And I have to have that now. The art could be mediocre. It's not, but it could be. And I would probably still choose to step into that space first because I believe that we can make it better by being real, loving humans in this space. Like ego and power and all these other things that would soak their way in will not be there. So therefore we could actually fix whatever was the problem. But I mean, it's an embarrassment of riches that I'm working with incredible humans and we're actually making something that is really good. But that's it. The vetting and the, you know, I don't want to make art with anyone that I wouldn't invite over to my house to have a meal with me. Yeah, it reminds you of a phrase that was brought up in our Space on Fatigue and Rest. And we mentioned this in the last session too. How someone was like, I want to get rid of the phrase labor of love because they use our love to exploit us. And I call them co-workers' family. Like all of these like really manipulative, linguistic tricks to make us feel like we're all at Sunday dinner, but actually they're just overworking as in what is happening to my body. But this idea of using that as an artistic standard and a community standard of, do you trust these people? Are they safe? The last session also like just echoed what you're introducing, this idea of imagine the art we could create if we all felt safe in the room. Because you established at the beginning of this conversation and early on this topic, we don't come for the skill sets. We don't come for the school names and the bios. That's all marketing. We come to see the human beings and what those human beings made together. And that is all contingent upon who those human beings were to each other in the room. And the excitement that that holds for the feature of what art could look like if is really... There's a definite, for a while I remember when people were saying like, I don't understand like how are people are so like overcome with fame and like these people don't do anything. And I'm like, right, because we don't, that's not why we care. Like, you know, all of these people who are stars for doing nothing, it's because we love to see human beings. That's what we want. Genius, yes, yes. So what is it that we're doing in this art form that makes us think that we should remove that? We're actually making it harder for ourselves and we're not actually getting the art that we could have. I really do feel like in this moment, having never stepped into a space as my full self and felt comfortable enough to not have to worry or keep my guard up, my art will be the best it's ever been because I am fully participating. And I go back to that full participation, not like I agree to be in the room and do the material that you give me and do, no, every single part of me is 100%. Yes, I wanna be here. That's like power that I've never had. That's brain power, that's heart that I've never been able to... And now it's gonna live inside the work. That's work we've never, we will never see again and have never seen because of the uniqueness of every person in every moment. And isn't that what we say theater is? Yeah. You know this, you were touching on something that in terms of like all the labor that goes into, okay, I'm gonna dress like this and I'm gonna take on the material that you give me and I'm gonna put on the mask into the exhaustion surrounding that labor of all the resources being put into just being which exponentially for BIPOC folks, transgender, non-binary, all of the intersections, the labor of reshaping intersections to enter the space. If producers leadership, you know, if our industry or field, if we're so worried about wasting resources, then we have to change because the resources are being wasted now on trying to shape to a community that is not real, trying to shape to an illusion. Yeah. The expenditure, the expenses, how expensive that is. It also seems like there is this thing where, you know so much resources are spent on some things that I think are really sort of frivolous and don't put any worth in what actually ends up happening. And I think about like this process, there's so much work has been done outside and it's not necessarily resources, but it's like brainstorming and like really trying to figure out like how should we do this in the most equitable way? How can we support people before people have even entered into the space? And now so much of that has been done that we're not, our level of production is not being stopped by having to, oh, you're not caring for the human. No. It's like, we should just keep going. Like we keep like leveling up because that stuff has already been done on the front. And that didn't cost money. That took someone the time to be like, I'm just gonna think about what all of these people need. I'm gonna ask what these people might need. I'm gonna keep that in the decision-making category when I build the rehearsal schedule. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna lead out with how would this feel for you rather than this is what we're gonna do? Because if there's opposition on the other end, you're not gonna get full participation in it. And now it's like, now we can actually like make stuff. And we're like, so it's not hard. It's just something we haven't done before. Yes, something you just said. If you don't welcome the full person, you don't get full participation. Yeah, I feel like that's, and we know that as, you know, as arts workers, how many times has something happened in your life and you're like, it's too close to half hour, I just have to go. And you know, the whole thing happens to you. You don't participate in the work. It's like, thank God it's in your body and you're just like, go, go, go, go, go, and you're like thinking about, all right, at, you know, at intermission, I'll shoot off a text. I'll call in to see what's going on. If I'm not here, then you're not getting it. And, you know, for people who, a producer or for someone who's like a director, you want all of it. You're not going to get all of it. You're not going to, you're going to get half of me, split down the center. Right. Yeah, this is really, this is so beautiful. And just to affirm, director Patricia McGregor was on the last panel and she spends the first bit of rehearsal asking for folks to complete the sentence and go back to more sessions for the full prompt because she's brilliant, it includes, I feel, I want, I need. And that's how we, the cast will introduce themselves. And she also commented, and it was a session on scheduling, but she commented that the majority of folks will say, I need time. I need more time. And to start off, she also mentioned that she has received work from producers or board members or different folks in leadership positions, asking why did she waste that time? And this recurring theme of start slow to go quickly with alacrity and listening, I'm just commenting on how we're now building into applying that to an entire company, the company of creators. How are we saying, wait, how do you really feel? What do you need? Let's spend the first part of our onboarding on each other so that when we move forward, it's together. It's simplifying, time checking in with your people is never time wasted. Johanna, yes, Anne. I also think about how many shows or productions have you, you've gotten to your final dress rehearsal and everyone's looking around going, are we actually gonna do this? And we do it, right? We pull it off. That is part of what we do, right? We make it happen. So the idea that if we spend time in rehearsal talking about what someone is holding, that somehow we've lost that on time and we're not gonna be ready for the show, we know how to do that. Oh, okay. We know how to do that. We do it all the time. So take the time. Take the time right now, not to mention what you're doing, you're building community. We already feel as company members that we're doing the impossible. We're deciding. We're gonna lift this thing off. I don't know how it's gonna happen. We're gonna do it arm in arm. Why wouldn't you take the time to build that community in the room where people are watching, how other people are supporting them so that when things really start to take off and there's a mishap on stage or something really goes down, you have that foundation already built. The show will go on because you have a true family that supports one another because they've actually done it in spaces. Not for the furtherment of the piece or for the, you know, for this, for the human being. That's, we can do with less rehearsal and running parts and like reminding ourselves of choreography, we're gonna figure it out. The lights are gonna turn on, we're gonna show up and we're gonna do it. But you can't build, you can't build a relationship. That's worth anything by not spending the time. Yes. Oh my gosh, I even vocalized, but we already know how to do that. Thank you. To be sisters in call, please don't worry about, well then how will we pull off the show? We've got you there. We need our fields and our community to come up under us and support us. And I promise you, we will be human beings in the space. And we will communicate, I mean, just even if folks talk about like design and crew and talking about, you know, well, things are already stressed there, already distressed, but when we talk about designers who are at the forefront and crew at the forefront of this human practice advocacy, imagine how much more supported those moments of distress, those pain points would be if you felt like the community had taken time to ask what you need, but they would already know. So they wouldn't have to take time when time was limited, but take time when there's time in abundance. How do we function then? We don't know what that looks like. So we can't condemn it. We need to learn, we need to try, we need to try what it looks like when we support each other in that moment. There's this idea too, I think about like the, you know, it takes trust, right? And I'm thinking more in terms of power, like the person who sets up the room, who has the most like the GM, the producers, you know, and to the director, sometimes I feel like there is a little bit of a wonder on their part of like, how is this gonna happen? Because they're not the person who does it, right? And there has to be this new world of like, you're gonna have to trust us. You picked me to be in this space because there's something that I can do and you have to trust that I will bring it. And that's the thing that I feel, I wanna give them the most compassion because it's in their ignorance. It's not in them trying to do harm, you know? The difference between those who do it and those who dream about doing it. And when you are someone who does it, when you step into space and you can have adrenaline coursing through your body and you can be crying and you can still be singing and you can be doing all of these hard things. For someone who doesn't know what that experience is, it seems insurmountable. And you're like, no, we have to micromanage every single moment. It has to be drilled because I couldn't do it. Therefore, I don't know how you're doing it. And you have, it's just like this moment of like, remember what your part is. Remember what I do, trust I'm gonna do it. If you take care of me, I'm gonna do it probably even better and harder. And with more joy and gratitude for the opportunity. The control thing and the unknowing, the not knowing if it can happen. I would never profess to know how to be a producer on a Broadway show. That's not my skill set. That's not my wheelhouse. But I got the other thing. You do your thing, I'm gonna do my thing. Yes, the agency to be the expert on what we need to be able to answer that question. And I love this idea of this invitation to trust as well. Because I think that that is where so much of the fear gets wrapped up. And it makes me ask, well, who have you been working with? Who are we working with? How are we working with each other so that we can impact why we're so afraid to trust each other? You know, we talk about childcare stipends and folks are like, well, but what if someone says that they have a babysitter but they don't really? And I'm like, why are we so worried? Why are we so worried? I mean, that's valid because actually I think that we're so used to being in a space of transactional relationships. They were like, if I offer something good, I'm gonna go into debt because that's what happens. We offer things that are good and we go into a deficit because people are like great and they take. We're talking about creating a culture where we ask each other. And so we have abundance to give because folks are asking us as well, what do you need? What do you need? And that compassion, yeah, that you introduced into the space 100% of, this is not a judgment on anyone, an invitation to a learning space of like, okay, this feels like you, this feels like, I mean, it felt like me at one point before I was, I'll share a little baby Grace story, I'm Grace and myself in a learning moment. In graduate school, we used to have six days a week, my first year, and then the older classes advocated for five days a week. And I was supposed to share this in the earlier session, so shout out to Patricia's class who really worked toward equitable learning. And I was mad that they took away a day from my week. I was upset, I was upset. And they said, it's so that you can have a life. They were older. And I was like, this is my life, theater is my life. And the brokenness of that phrase, the brokenness of the person who says that phrase that I now recognize, and also the privilege of the person who says that phrase that I now recognize. It's just an invitation that the only way that I can move forward, like you're talking about is to have Grace on myself in that moment to say, oh, you did not know that this would not be sustainable, that this would break you. And that we need folks to be speaking out and you need to learn to speak out for what you need to. I say that to myself, my younger self now in many situations, but in that one. It's just kind of an invitation I love that you introduced. It can be from the ignorance. It can be from the privilege. It can be from the fact that someone's been harmed before. And so it's a defense mechanism, a control, a micromanagement. But why are we cannot create art from that place? I can't do it. I think there's also something that, you know, as arts workers, so often that you don't have the ability to, you have to do hard things sometimes and you don't get to check. You don't get to double check. You just have to trust that everyone has already done their job because you have lights in your eyes and you're like, I remember one time we were like talking about, oh, we're gonna change a costume change and it's really quick. And I was, okay, great. Where are they gonna be? But like, don't worry, they'll find you. And I was like, and then there was a part of me that was like, right, I have to trust those humans will be there for me. And I think that artists had this thing where it's like, and it's double edged, right? So like, we have to sort of jump and really trust about the net. We really do. And then sometimes like, we almost like give it away. We give away that moment. Oh, they have my back. Not everybody does. Like you're gonna have to like, you're gonna have to like take the time to slow down and assess. And that's the other thing. Like I don't necessarily like to live in that place anymore. And so that's why I do all of like the vetting on the front end. I don't wanna be in a space in question. I don't wanna take the time away from making art to question. But artists, I mean, we just like, we just jump. We do it a lot. And I think that, you know, those in other places could actually take a page from that book. I think of people who like have brand new like dance partners and they're doing lifts and they're like doing, they just like, okay, you run it like one time before you like the curtain goes up and they're like, okay, great. I trust that you're gonna catch me and I'm not gonna break anything. And it happens. You just like flip a switch and then you just do it. Well, it's the call to not just trust based on assumption, but to have a trust that's built. Build trust. And that's really what it sounds like, you know, this conversation is leaning toward in terms of at the top of rehearsal, getting to know each other. Those dancers, they built trust with separate people and the skill sets with separate people. They had rehearsal so that when they went in and so in our relationships and in our safe engagement with each other and support of each other, what rehearsal are we giving ourselves? To build trust and say, what do you need? And like you're saying, even before the art rehearsal begins, ask those questions, who are you? What are your values? What are your goals with this piece? I'm building trust with you slowly so that when it comes time to trust quickly, we're there and you can catch me. That would be great. Cause I also want to just speak in space. No one is entitled to anyone's trust. No one is entitled to your trust either. So encourage the building. We're nearing our time. This has been such a joy, such a gift. Any final thoughts that you would love to send into the space on your mind or heart before I hand it over? I want to be really clear about saying that if you're someone who's in the space, then it's really likely that like you're already, you're leveling up, not to judge on any other space, but like I really do feel like you're searching and you're asking questions and it's inevitable that that's trajectory that's going in one direction and it's for the betterment of you and those around you. And so that is like, I guess it's like, like thank you for being here and growing because if I get to be in space with you, then that means that I'm gonna be better off and we can co-collaborate and co-create on just being better humans and being more present. I am so much gratitude for Powell and for you, Tamara and Rachel just for having me here. It's a joy and it's not over. It's like, I'll see you, I'll see you the next time as we grow and learn and share resources, but thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much. It is just the beginning. It is the constant conversation of new beginnings, 100%. Huge thank you to all of us, to all of us. Sure, why not? My body's already including me in the accomplishment. That is radical. Yeah, young me would be very surprised. Huge congratulations to all of us for being here today and for bringing ourselves into a space where we can ask questions and be transparent. We want this to be just the beginning of the spaces. If you need spaces in the future, look for Powell Meetups every third Thursday. They are open for you to check in. If you don't have community yet, find community. Don't feel like you have to do this advocacy or change yourself. Thank you to the public theater for making this summit possible financially and financially supporting and doing your own internal investigations into humane practices. Thank you to our producer, Adriana Gaviria who does a brilliant job helping us gather. Thank you to Tamanya Garza, our director of community and justice initiatives for helping us deep in this understanding of how our work connects to justice and our relationships to each other. Thank you to our interpreters at Pro Bono ASL and True Biz who created this access, made it possible. And just a huge gratitude to everyone on the Palestinian committee, to everyone who is actually doing this work and making change and making these conversations possible so that we can bring you into the space and hear your voice. Thank you, Kayo and Adriana, I'd love to pass it on to you to close us out and take us into the world. But just until, as Kayo said, we meet again, thank you. Thank you so much, Rachel. Thank you, Kayo and everyone who is watching on Facebook on HowlRound and also here in this meeting. I did wanna say one little thing that helped me get through some decisions that I also made when I was at that crossroads. It took me a really long time to forgive myself but saying to myself, I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. Thank you everyone so much for being here and to more conversations like this. Thank you. Thank you.