 Friday morning. Welcome to the 7th meeting of 2015 of the European External Relations Committee. Can I make the usual request that mobile phones are switched off? Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking agenda item 5 in private. Are members who will take the report in private? Jamie? A plan. Heulol, our two panels this morning, which is our Connecting Scotland inquiry, and I am delighted to welcome our witnesses today who have travelled to the Government's international strategies, to give evidence from London and Munich—to give evidence to the committee—and with us today we have Christos Se BIros—as the agent general of the Government of Quebec in London—and Paul Fisher, who is the International Relations Department in the Bavarian i ymddiolwg oed gyda'r cym toyw, i ddeni'r cymorth o bethau cysylltu ac mwynhau'n siarad am nghymru. Felly, mae fyw rôl ddawnt yn ei fod yn ddefnyddio'r ll Assassin, ac oedd mynd i'n ddod o'r byw. Mae'n gweld i amser i ddewid edrych gwnaeth yng Nghymru a'i gwybod fod i'r iawn i'r ddefnyddio gyda'r gwael o'r cyfwiliadol, ac o'i ddau troi i'r A oeddwn i'r deuddeidniadau yn gyllideb y Cymru i gwrth gwrth gyrddwyr o gymunedd gyfoedd ymlawr? Mae Mdorol, Gwrtheg, lle i'n gwneud o gweithio gyhoes gyd i gyfgareddol ar y Cyfryd yfnodol ar Fawr Fawr? Jason fallenIGar, mae'n deuddwyl arferio cyfleoedd yma ar gyfer y Cymru i gwrth gyrddwyr yn gyflawr Fawr Fawr Cymru, ac roeddwn yn cyf gabethio'n cyfawr yn gyflawr yn gyflawr yw'r ddwyliadau cyrraedd ar y gyllid yn sgolwyr, i bwysig, i'w gweithio sgolwyr llanthag bwysig, yn unig o'r ffordd ar y parlym yn y parlym yn unig i'r unig i'n gwneud mwy o'r ddau phasol ymddangosol yn y ffordd a'r ffordd o'r ddweud i'r lefyn yn ein llefyn o'r Llyfrgell. Mae'r ffordd o'r amser yn bwysig i'r Llyfrgell, rydyn nhw wedi bod y Cymru yn fwybu bwysig co-operational agreement between Scotland and Bavaria. In the following, I would like to give you now outline the main features of Bavaria's international relations policy. And let me emphasize just at the start that to conduct external relations is a constitutional right of the German lender. Although the basic law reserves foreign affairs for the federal state, article 32, paragraph 1, paragraph 3 of the same article allows the individual states within their sphere of incompetence, of course, and I'll give you just a few examples, culture, education, media, security, health, environmental protection, and so forth. And in agreement with the federal government to negotiate and conclude treaties with foreign countries. Bavaria has always made use of this constitutional right thus maintaining diplomatic relations below the level of foreign policy. And just to give you an example, a current example, there's an MOU at the moment to be prepared to be signed with the French Republic, with the République Française. While the relations with Berlin are more or less harmonious, there is a strong element of competition vis-à-vis other lender governments and Bavaria is very successful in this environment. Its institutional model of international relations is a rather decentralized one based on loose coordination between different state ministries. The key actor is the minister-president who has the right to set out government priorities to be implemented by ministries and government agencies in the area of competence. But in other words, the Bavarian state ministries are free to conduct their own external relations within those priorities given and guidelines given by the minister-president. The Bavarian state treasury where I work is responsible for overall coordination and for this we have a rather small budget for international projects and the Minister for European Affairs and International Relations in the state treasury this is the official title plays the role of Bavaria's foreign minister. Just to give you also a few facts and figures on Bavaria, Bavaria is the land in Europe at the heart of Europe and it is the largest and oldest state in Germany and it has an original and historical quality of state. It is not an artificial creation formed after the Second World War. However, the fact that it is often called the free state that is very important to note does not give it any more powers and competencies than the other 15 under have. That's very important to note. It's 12.6 million inhabitants represent 16% of the German population with 20% of the federal territory. It is Germany's largest state. And just to give you another figure that is this Bavaria state budget is 47 billion euro and 10% of this have to be paid to other lender on this famous financial equalization scheme you may have heard about in Germany the finance ausgleich. Traditionally, and this is an almost 1,000 year old tradition, Bavaria state government has always cultivated good relations with foreign countries. For a highly advanced state like Bavaria, it is impossible to imagine a sound future development without being embedded in an international framework. Bavaria's partners are countries and regions in its immediate vicinity. We call cross border cooperation in Europe and indeed all over the world. Wherever there is our close connections with immediate neighbors, just as Czech Republic, Austria, Switzerland, wherever there are historical and cultural ties, especially with the central eastern and south eastern European countries, but also with France, Italy and USA. And wherever there is an opportunity for greater access to the world's markets, China, India, South America, Brazil, the state government acts as a door opener and partner. It helps to promote Bavaria's innovative power, competitiveness and cultural identity and it builds bridges between cultures and in doing so increases the locations attractiveness. Bavaria's international cooperation covers a wide variety of fields which can be summarized under three thematic headings. Politics and administration, business, science, technology and the environment. And here we put a special focus on the internationalization of science and research and of our universities and third education, culture and society. And recently a new sphere of activity has been added, development policy against the background of the current problems arising from the worldwide movements of refugees triggered by the crisis throughout the world. Just think of the Syrian civil war, Ebola and the dramatic climate change. In this field we have also, we have then started a cooperation with Tunisia, Turkey and Lebanon. There are six essential tools at Bavaria's disposal to cultivate its international relations. One, international context of the members of the state government. In 2014 alone the Bavaria minister visited the Vatican, met the Pope, France, Mr Hollande, the Czech Republic, Mr Nechaz and China where he met the premier Li Keijang. He was received by its respective leaders and conversely Bavaria received guests and high profile dialogue partners from society, politics and businesses. All in all, one to two meetings of state ministries, state ministers with foreign governments are there a week and there are about 20 foreign trips per year only organized by the state chancellor. So not to speak of the other trips of foreign travel of our state ministries. Second tool, intergovernmental commissions and working groups. We have 12 intergovernmental working groups, commissions and working groups that provide support for close cooperation on specific projects between Bavaria's partners and the state government at bilateral and multilateral level. I should mention also Bavaria's input to the European Danube strategy. This is on the European level, the European Danube strategy since 2009 and the European Alpine strategy which is being developed at the moment. A special tool which I would like to stress here is the regional leaders conference. In our opinion, the future belongs to those regions which are strong, the very best compete with each other. This is why Bavaria has created the so-called power regions group. Bavaria summits take place between Bavaria, the leaders of Quebec, that's for the first, Sao Paolo, Upper Austria, Shandong, the Western Cape and Georgia, USA. The guiding principle is close cooperation among strong partners in four continents. This leads to numerous joint projects in research and technology and in education, the arts and the media. Third, Bavaria representation offices abroad. That's something that might be surprising to you. There are more than 20 representative offices, but only three of them are political ones. They are in Brussels, in Montreal and in Prague. Only a few months ago this was opened in Prague. The other roughly 20 are commercial ones and they are at the moment under revision. They are reviewed with the objective to get them more efficient because we think maybe 20 is a bit too much. We are all over the world in four continents and the offices have more than two or three hats because they work for the German Chamber of Commerce, for foreign trade or for a bank and so on. This might not be so efficient. We are just reviewing this at the moment. Fourth tool, agencies in Bavaria with international focus. We have created an agency called Bayern International, which has to promote more or less Bavaria abroad and trade fairs and so on. Then we have several Bavarian university centres for cooperation with Eastern and Central Europe, with France, USA, Quebec, China, Latin America and India. This is in the context of our internationalisation of our universities. Bavaria is also a prime venue for hosting internationally renowned forums for dialogue and negotiations, such as the Munich Security Conference every February. This year, which is quite something we are looking forward to, we will host the G7 summit in southern Bavaria. Fifth tool, cooperation with the Consular Corps. More than 110 consular representations make Bavaria the location with the largest number of consulates outside Berlin. Sixth, specific support for individual projects. This is what gives most of the work to me, because these projects are submitted by scientists, students, representatives of associations, civil society and organisations. 30 to 50 projects are agreed and implemented in the intergovernmental commissions. This is the practical results of international cooperation at operational level. Now, in conclusion, let me say that Germany's federal structure leaves ample room for Bavaria and the Deutsche Lender to conduct their own international relations. We think that a federal state is well suited to guarantee regional diversity and meet the nations and regions' demand for the widest possible flexibility and influence. But we are well aware of the fact that the German model of federalism is not the only one possible. Every state has to take into consideration the particularities and regional characteristics of its own country. This is what I wanted to say to you today on Bavaria's external relations policy, which will also be reviewed very soon, and I think I'm very grateful to be here today and to maybe hear other approaches to the subject. Thank you again for having me here and would be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you very much, Mr Siddos. Thank you very much. Let me also express my thanks for the invitation and my pleasure in being here and perhaps having had the opportunity to meet one of my ex-colleagues, which is your delegate to Brussels as I spent a good eight years in Brussels and I had the chance to meet Ian Campbell who I think is after myself presenting here as well. What I wanted to do was briefly perhaps give you a small historical perspective of how we are where we are and why we do what we do, how we do it, and then perhaps to just briefly explain some of the main objectives that we have as a government. Just to situate the context of Quebec's international presence, we've been present on the international scene for over 50 years now, or just about 50 years. We're the only Canadian province that has such an extensive network of representations abroad. We have approximately 27 different representations across the world, probably in roughly, memory serves me, 12 different countries. It comes out of a basic need of Quebec as an island, a Francophone island, if you like, within Canada and within North America to assert itself, to express its identity. The realization in the 60s, in a period that we call the Quiet Revolution, that to do so on the international scene was also to sort of project one's identity and to strengthen it within the context of our internal reality. Quebec went through a period of a long period of time, a very inward looking, very sort of sheltered existence, if you like, and that realization, that precariousness couldn't continue towards the end of the 20th century, led to sort of the creation of a modern state, which is quite recent, to be honest. It comes from the 60s, and as an example, I always give the fact that 1964 marked the first time that there was ever a minister of education in Quebec. Education, health, and many other social responsibilities of the state were left entirely to the church. But in the 60s, this sense of reaffirmation asserted itself in Quebec in all spheres, created a modern public service, and with that came the enunciation of something we call the Gérin-la-Joy principle, which was a principle enunciated by the First Minister of Education, who was also responsible for international affairs, which said very simply that if it's our jurisdiction at home, then it should be our jurisdiction everywhere. And that was based on a constitutional, or rather a court decision from the 1930s, from the Privy Council, which told the federal government that it could not implement treaties that it had negotiated, which it only has the right to negotiate with the Constitution, if they were in areas of provincial jurisdiction without the province's accord. And with that came the sense that if things were going to apply to Quebec, if they had been negotiated internationally by the federal government, then it would make sense for Quebec to also exert its influence and presence within its spheres of jurisdiction. From that realization in the 60s and the principle that what's ours at home is ours abroad as well, came the development of the establishment of a ministry of international relations and the establishment slowly of a series of networks of representations across the world, resulting in today what I mentioned before, 27 in 12 different countries. The main characteristic, I suppose, of how we're organized is that they are all government offices. Contrary to many other, and I think my colleague here just alluded to the fact that representatives of the Bavarian government in some areas may wear two or three hats, a government hat, a private sector hat. In Quebec's network of representations, all the representatives are government representatives. They vary, however, in terms of, I wouldn't want to use the word status, but the degree of representation. We have what we call antennas, we have what we call offices, delegations, and general delegations. If you start from the top, the general delegation is basically the full service representation. It services all of the government's priorities and all of our areas of jurisdiction with the authority embedded to the representative by the cabinet as a delegate of the government in areas of politics and public affairs, therefore relations with other institutions, governments, depending on what the jurisdictions are and depending on what kind of relationship we can establish in the various countries that we're in. Economic affairs and cultural affairs. Those are the three basic driving forces, if you like, of our activities on the international scene. Politics and public affairs have resulted, the purpose of that is to basically follow debates going on on the international scene, especially as the world has become more and more globalized, that we attempt to sort of create alliances with others that share the same goals and principles to attempt to influence decisions as they come down the pipeline, project Quebec's reality through public affairs and public diplomacy in terms of telling people who we are. In economic affairs, the idea is basically to sell Quebec, to sell our products abroad, sell Quebec is a good place to invest in and in cultural affairs to basically create a space for our artists to be seen and to be recognized across the world and to support our cultural industries in that sense. Again, that's the general delegation that would have representatives from the government but also locally hired staff, a larger percentage of locally hired staff, as you can well imagine, run by or directed by representatives of the Ministry of Culture, the Ministry of International Relations and the Ministry of Economic Development. But all of those other ministries are also directly coordinated by the Ministry of International Relations with whom they have agreements so that basically the Ministry of International Relations that is their coordinator or boss, if you like, on the field, in the field, the people that represent the various sectorial ministries' interests are delegated by the ministries involved but, what is the word, seconded, if you like, to the Ministry of International Relations who then sets the terms of their employment and activities abroad under the authority of the delegate general or the agent general, as he's called in the UK. That's a particular kind of reality that stems probably from an old colonial past when we had an agent general to look after our affairs with the governor here, with the crown here, I should say. Fundamentally, that's the brief presentation of what we do. The other areas that we're involved in that are not general delegations, well, it's a scaling down, and the scaling down would probably end up, at the entry level, primarily be driven by economic interests. So the first place we would probably set up a delegation or an office or an antenna would be somewhere where we're identifying that there are potential economic interests. That may change over time as well, because things change. Some offices will open and close depending on what the perspectives are. For instance, we had opened up an office in Moscow a few years back for various reasons, some of which you can imagine that's been closed over the last couple of years. Budgetary realities also of the government also play a role in how active we can be on the international scene. We've gone through periods where the network has been expanded, periods where it's come back a little bit depending on what's been happening with our own public finances. But the general trend over the last 50 years has been growth within the network. And again, with the sense that it's a government representation. We don't attempt to be embassies, we don't attempt to be, although some of our, and this might be of interest to some of you, given the political context that we all understand, we've had a very similar debate in Quebec over the last 30 years or so on the whole question of sovereignty, independence, federalism, and all of that. That clearly has also influenced at times the relationship that there may have been or that there is between the embassies on the ground and our delegations, never to the point where it's something that there's sort of a tacit understanding that we solve our own problems at home no matter who we are. But clearly the level of co-operation or the level of synergy that can be developed between an embassy and a delegation, a Quebec delegation, a Canadian embassy, can be influenced by the political context at home. The general approach is that the embassies represent Quebec as well, but we bring in an added value, a value added, if you like, in terms of our own jurisdictions, so that we want to work with Canadian embassies to ensure that the doors that need to be opened for us in contexts that require a diplomatic recognition, which we do not have, are opened for us by the Canadian embassies, and we bring to the table at times a sort of value added for Canada that allows host countries to understand that it's not just the federal government speaking on behalf of Canada, but everybody. The best example I can give of that is the Canada-EU trade negotiations, which would not have happened had it not been for humbly stated Quebec's presence in Brussels, because the European Union was not interested in negotiating with Canada, primarily because Canadian federal jurisdictions were not something, especially in public markets, was not something that the federal government could commit to. So the Europeans wanted to have the commitment of the provinces that what would be negotiated would be respected, and it was through the convincing, if you like, by the provinces, and Quebec played a leading role in that, to convince the Europeans that, yes, we were willing to negotiate with Canada at the table that led the Europeans to eventually conclude this agreement with Canada. We've been very active on a number of other priorities that are priorities for the government of Quebec and stem from our jurisdictions, climate change, the Convention on Cultural Diversity that was adopted by UNESCO a little while ago, and that allows me to open a small parenthesis, which is to say that we are also the only province that has negotiated with the federal government a specific Quebec presence within UNESCO, within the Canadian delegation. That was a very recent achievement, I think that was 2004, and we also have a specific presence and speak with our own voice at the Organization for Francophone States, where we also have developed over time a special relationship with France, which does give us, in a sense, diplomatic recognition, and we have an institutionalized exchange between the Premier of Quebec and the President of France, or the Prime Minister, rather, of France, with alternate visits every year, and there was one such visit quite recently for different ministers and ministries to participate with their French counterparts. Most of a lot of our ministers do entertain relations with their counterparts in various countries, and that's one of the roles of the delegations as well, to ensure that we have the kind of network that allows us to present to our ministers and ministries the appropriate contacts for benefiting best practices in other such relations. In formal terms, we signed close to, again, Surazeth, I think about 200 agreements on issues that are on social security, for instance, to allow recognition back and forth of various social security measures, such as pensions and other benefits of the sort in terms of transferability between countries and Quebec, because that, too, is a provincial jurisdiction. Perhaps the best that I can do is to stop there and then open it up for questions, if there are. I think that they are all champing at the bit, which is a Scottish term for ready to go. Willie Coffey. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning to you both. I wonder if I could ask you to talk a little bit, I know that we have limited time, but a little bit about the issue about powers and the powers that you both have in your Governments. Are there any circumstances where Bavaria and Quebec see the need to extend and acquire more powers? Clearly, circumstances within both of your economies must change from year to year and so on, and there will be demands to do certain things, to do better things for both your people. Firstly, how does that process work if you would seek more powers within the sphere of competence that you both mentioned? Secondly, could you tell me if both of your Governments have powers over things like creating jobs or borrowing powers or what do you do in relation to your tax revenues? Do you keep all of them or do they go to the German and Canadian Governments? Could you tell us a wee bit about that, please? Thank you very much. Perhaps we should start from the money, which is often at the source of things, and taxation you touched on at the end. We have a taxation system where we tax directly the Quebec Government taxes and raises its own revenues on the basis of its needs. The Federal Government does the same, taking into account the fact that it's one pocket, however. So there's a general sense that there's only so much that one can go and get in terms of taxes, but we raise our own taxes on the basis of our jurisdictions. We're responsible for education, for health, yes, for economic development, for many areas that require obviously raising funds. We're not in a process at this point of seeking more powers, if you like. The Quebec reality and the reality of the Canadian Federal Constitution or the Canadian Constitution is that provinces are designated a certain number of jurisdictions. The Federal Government has other jurisdictions that are given to it. It all stems from 1867 and the British North America Act. So clearly over time many things have changed, but over time also tradition has played a role. Some of those jurisdictions are exclusive. For instance, there is no Minister of Education for Canada. It's only the provinces that have an education minister. There is a Minister of Health in Canada, but he doesn't administer anything. He looks after, I guess, public health, if you like, in the general terms, perhaps food inspection, stuff like that, because the ministers of health are in the provinces and they run the health system. There are sort of financial agreements between the federal government and the provincial governments in terms of funding some programs. We're seeking at this point more clarification of the roles of the... clarification of the jurisdictions and the spending power of the federal government because the basic reality of the Canadian Constitution is that the federal government has spending power without a clear indication that it cannot spend in areas of provincial jurisdiction without provincial authorisation. So that sometimes creates problems because they decide one thing that leads to certain priorities that may or may not correspond with provincial priorities. So there are discussions or debates or a political context that would like to see a clarification of those things, as well as the fundamental reality that the Canadian Constitution, which was repatriated in 1982 from Westminster to Canada with an amending formula, did not receive Quebec's consent at that point. So that still remains at some point to be looked at, decided or dealt with. Seeking more powers in German land would mean a very difficult and complicated reform of federalism. Of course, as far as that. I don't want to go into detail because we had one of these reforms which took years, actually, only a few years ago. And concerned actually one of the problems was what is the competence of the lender on your university level? So because there was a framework legislation where the federal estate was responsible and then the lender had to be responsible for the professors and so on and the teaching. So this is one thing. On the other hand, we have the same sort of experience as Quebec as our powers are concerned. We have specific powers such as the education is a full lender competence, but also policing, for example. And many other folks, and we are responsible also for the environment. There are lots of important powers. And of course we also have to see that we have this subsidiarity principle where, for example, we don't interfere with, for example, waste management because waste management is where, for example, the cities on the municipal level can be best treated there. So as far as this is concerned, we are happy with that. And if we want to have a bigger say, of course there is always these procedures foreseen by our constitution. We have the Bundesrat, the federal council in Berlin where the lender ever say many, we have, for example, our minister resident. He's a resident of the CSU. He's also governing in Berlin with Mrs. Merkel and the SPD. So there's quite a lot of possibilities of getting our interests actually seen by the federal state. Now, as far as creating jobs is concerned, we leave this to our small and medium-sized companies. It's at the backbone, actually, of Bavarian economy. About 99% of all our firms are SMEs. Of course we will think of BMW, of Siemens and MAN and all the others, but they are important for Bavaria, for Bavaria's attractiveness, too. But the main backbone is SMEs. And we have a very low unemployment rate in Bavaria. Only 3.8% compared to Germany's on the German level, which is 6.9%. And this is why this problem doesn't arise at the moment. I was going to say that we have a lower unemployment rate of about 6.9%. It's German. Were you successful, Dr Fisher, two years ago when you were discussing new powers? Were you successful? I think you mentioned an example from two years ago. Were you successful in acquiring some new powers or did you fail to persuade? Yes, we were successful. Thank you very much. 16 lenda were involved. I think we were successful. Thank you. Thank you. Jamie McGregor. Thank you. You mentioned that the Bavarian lender is probably the largest and strongest of all the lenders. Is that correct? And are there 11, did you say, or 15? 15. There are 16 lenda on all. Yes. I noticed that according to Professor Michael Keating, the Bavarian lender has the right to represent the country, the council of ministers in Europe. And I wondered if all the other lenders do as well and how on earth they all get fitted in if this is the case. I'm not sure whether. I think we have an article. We have a new article in our basic law, article 23, which gives the lender a certain say on European questions. But I think this is all to be sort of negotiated with the federal level. There's no direct, as far as I know, no direct sort of participation of Bavaria on the council of ministers in Brussels. That's interesting. In that case, you talked about, you know, obviously it's a federal state, Germany, but do all the lenders have the same advantages, or would you say that particular lenders such as your own, which is obviously very strong, has better advantages than the other ones? And is there a sort of, is there any disharmony over this? It's a very good question, because this touches actually our everyday policies in Germany. Of course Bavaria has huge advantages. It is a country which is economically number one or two in Germany with global players known worldwide. I also mentioned maybe here the FC Bayern Munich, which is also a global player, and this gives Bavaria of course an advantage towards compared to maybe other lender with other German lender. It is the largest, it is the oldest. History plays an important role, tradition plays an important role compared to other lender, which we often have, we call them the Haiphren Lender, for example Baden-Württemberg, North Rhine-Westphalia. They were created after the Second World War. Bavaria has a, yeah, it's a state, it's not an artificial state, it's a state of its own. And now the problem is, talking of disharmonies, as I told you, with a budget of 47 billion euro, 10% of this budget, about 4 billion, are given away by Bavaria to other German lender. And to, for example, I think most of the lender of the former GDR are involved in there. And very often so the question is, how do these lender who get our money, how do they use this money? And this is why there is often political strife. But of course we don't, I think in one of these in the next few years, this topic will be on the agenda on the national level. How to re-equalise this financial equalisation scheme in Germany. When you say you have the 20 offices, international offices, do these promote Bavarian culture, or is it German culture generally? Or is it really your lender more than anyone else's really? Actually, what they do is actually, they act as a commercial offices. For example, as I said, we have so many small and medium sized companies. They can't really work on the international level. They have no interpreters, they have not the people who know how to, the cultural knowledge and so on. So these representatives who work, say in Johannesburg or in Shenzhen in China, they are here to guide them, to guide them and to met, but also to inform for example Chinese companies how to invest in Bavaria. That's the main thing. It's a commercial, their commercial offices. With three exceptions I would say, this is the Brussels representation and the one in Prague, which is quite a special thing because maybe you know for her historic reasons, there was after the war, there was a difficult neighbourhood with neighbouring relations with the Czech Republic because of all the two-datant, the question was the problem. This is I think a great achievement to have this office, this representation now in Prague, which acts in a way a political representation, together of course, always together with a colleague responsible for trade affairs. Thank you very much. I've got one more question for Cora Beck, that's all right. Yes, you mentioned your connections with the, obviously the cultural connections are pushed towards the francophone part of Europe, I suppose, or towards French culture more than any other. But I really was interested by your, the connections of Quebec to the EU and what you said about the CETA agreement. Did you find, so far with the CETA agreement, have you discovered, there are worries obviously about these agreements that they can do things like, they can affect health services or privatise health services. Has that happened in your experience? Have you seen any examples of bad things from the CETA agreement in relation to Quebec? None at all, and I must say for having been fairly closely involved with the discussions and the negotiations, I think many of those fears are extremely exaggerated. They have no foundation in legal fact. They may be concerns of a large number of people and I've heard things about privatisation of water, health services, of education services, but there's nothing in the agreement that takes away the right of a government to decide what it wants to do with its services. And just a quick thing on the cultural aspect of our presence internationally. Yes, there is a particular relationship with France in terms of the francophone reality, but we're very culturally present in non-francophone countries as well. In the UK, London is clearly a magnet of attraction for people. We have over 1,600-1,700 representations a year that take place in the UK. Many here in Scotland will be very present at the Edinburgh festivals this summer, so it's not all just francophone, it's also a cultural dynamism that we'd like to put forward that stems from our cultural identity as a francophone society, yes, but we'd like to share that. Is there a problem coming back to the theatre agreement again with the fact that the different provinces may have different standards? Or did you say, I know you said you had a minister for public health in Canada, does that mean that all your Quebec plus the other parts of Canada have the same standards in relation to food safety and that sort of thing? Yes, on the whole yes. The quick answer is yes. There is a federal agency for food and safety that sets certain standards, and whatever provincial standards may exist in some specific areas, they're up to par with the federal standards as well. In other words, there are no substantial differences in health standards from province to province. Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr Zyrwaz, if I can just come back on some of the points and see to just the merits of the treaty itself, but just really in terms of how negotiations work between you and the federal government, and indeed what's the status of the Quebec Parliament in discussion on the treaty itself and negotiations, what part do they play in reviewing that? Perhaps you could elaborate on that. There have been, as you know, other free trade agreements signed between Canada and the US and Mexico, et cetera, et cetera. This was the first time in the CEDA negotiations that the provinces were directly involved at the table of negotiations with their own delegations speaking through the Canadian negotiator, if you like, but they were directly involved in the process from A to Z, even though the negotiations physically took place between the Canadian negotiator and the EU negotiator. In the room, there were delegates from each of the provinces that were there in the various sectors that concerned the provinces in their own jurisdictions. In the past, there had been consultations and discussions between the federal government and the provinces on a less formal basis as negotiations between Canada and whoever they were negotiating with went forward, because it's the federal government that has the right to negotiate commercial international treaties. But what I mentioned earlier is that the province has the authority and the power to implement whatever parts of those treaties touch its jurisdiction, so the National Assembly, for instance, in Quebec, will review whatever has been negotiated and give its consent to the application of that treaty that Canada has negotiated if it affects provincial jurisdictions. So, in the case of CETA, when the ratification process is complete, there will be a motion in the National Assembly to enforce the treaty negotiations, which will be debated in the House and adopted or rejected or... But, yes, the National Assembly does exercise that authority. The other provinces may do it differently. They may do it by a government decree, they may do it by a cabinet decision. In Quebec, they decided to make it a parliamentary... is a parliamentary aspect to it. And that's yet to occur. That's yet to occur. Yes, that's yet to occur. The ratification is not yet taking place. In terms of the debate with other provinces of Canada, in those negotiations, did that pose strains, competing tensions between different provinces in trade negotiations, or was that not a reality? For the negotiations of the CETA? Well, yes. Different provinces had different priorities in the negotiations. Clearly, there was a difference between Alberta and its willingness to sort of promote better investments for developing its energy resources in Newfoundland, which wanted to increase its access for fish to the European Union. But like in any negotiations, it was a global negotiation, so there was a give and take. And that's why it was important that the provinces were able to be at the table. And there were many instances where they were able to sort of meet amongst themselves as well and understand just who wanted what. Ultimately, it's a negotiation, but there was a give and there was a take. And some people won some issues, gave up some other issues, and ultimately, hopefully everybody came away with the sense that there was a win-win for everybody. They came away satisfied enough to say that, yes, this was a good conclusion. Okay, thank you. If I may, I've got a question for Dr Fisher. You talked to the conclusion of your opening remarks about the German federal model that might be slightly different in the realms of the power it gave to individual lander like Bavaria to engage in international relations. As I understand it, Bavarian lander could sign international treaties. Can you give us some examples of recent treaties that the Bavarian lander has actually signed and what areas are we talking about? Most of the treaties are, we wouldn't call them treaties, but we call them administrative agreements. We have a lot with Tunisia, for example, we signed. It was not a treaty of international law, but it was a treaty where our administrations actually agreed to work in specific fields of cooperation. So it is quite rare to have these real treaties, for example, maybe, I can't think of a recent one, but I'm sure that maybe there were treaties between the Czech Republic and Bavaria, maybe on cross-border traffic, for example, and maybe also as far as the environmental problems are concerned. But at that moment I can give you a sort of specific example for a treaty concerning international law, but it's a very rare thing to do. Perhaps a question for both gentlemen, really, is, from your own respective experiences, what lessons can be learned for Scotland in its relationship with the rest of the UK? Very hard to give advice. Our experience has been that it's been very useful for us to have a government presence on various and different territories. It's allowed us to sort of benefit from the best practices in those areas to look after our interests, whether they're commercial or cultural or indeed political. And I think that the idea, the concept that we have, is to have a policy based on the government's priorities. It may change over time, and right now, for instance, the previous international affairs policy was adopted about 10 years ago. It's being reviewed. We'll probably be put forward in a new format. Things changed, the world's reality changes as well. Globalisation has played an incredible role. I think what's important is to ensure that for us, and you can take it as it applies to you, but for us what's been important has been to be present there where we feel our interests are best served and to speak with our own voice where we can to collaborate and coordinate our action with the Canadian government, but to do so in a way that allows us to be seen and to be heard, because we feel that opens up possibilities for us in terms of bettering our people's standard of living economically and the recognition that people have of who we are internationally, and that's important. Very difficult to give advice because our systems, our public systems are so different, but I think what is, I think it was a success story for Bavaria certainly to have this international policy to have set up these representative offices, to travel to open to the world, and to create an investment-friendly climate in Bavaria, for example. In doing this by talking about the assets of Bavaria abroad and so this was proved to be very successful, but whereas industry generates half of its revenue abroad, I don't know what about Scotland, but this is certainly a point where you could say, well, this is Scotland, and this is the rest of the United Kingdom, for example, so you can make yourself a special place as far as investments are concerned, the economic strength to show the economic strength of Scotland, but also to show Scotland as a cultural state, a cultural nation, and all this I think is very important. But without, of course, intervening into the rights of Westminster, for example. That would be my advice. Okay, we've got to finish by 10 o'clock this morning because we have someone in Beijing waiting to come in the next panel, so I've got Adam and Hanzala then Ann, so succinct and quickly please. Okay, I'll try and keep it as simple as possible. The impression I get from what you're saying this morning is that the network of offices that you have set up are, I suppose, primarily or basically it's an economic agenda that those offices pursue, but I would imagine there are other dimensions to the kind of international reputation that you want to build for Bavaria or Quebec. Could you perhaps articulate what that international reputation you're seeking to build for each of your homelands? I'll stab at that. The international reputation that we're seeking to build is that people understand and the world understands Quebec's reality, the nature of Quebec society, the reality of being a Francophone state within a sea of North American Anglophone reality with the United States as a neighbour to the south. There's an incredibly strong cultural pressure, if you like. I think that could be described as being in bed with an elephant. You have to watch out when he turns, don't you? One of the things that we'd like to see the world understand is that this need for affirmation, if you like, within that context does not mean that it has resulted, rather, in a society that's creative, dynamic, that has survived over the last 200 or so years after the 1760 conquest, if you like. That has emerged as a modern-looking, open, forward-looking state. If there's an image that we would like the world to understand is that Quebec is open, outward-looking, willing to take and to participate with others in promoting fundamental values of respect for people, equality, democracy. And that we do so as a Francophone reality within North America. As far as Bavaria is concerned, we would like maybe to have a change of image away from the castles of Ludwig and Oktoberfest, which is a very important thing, but after we want to be seen as a trade partner, a reliable trade partner, a motor for innovation and a reliable partner, actually also for the mega-trends of the future. So that Bavaria is not only leader-hose, letter-trousers, but also what we call very often laptop, which is also becoming a bit ancient now, but as a modern state open to the world and a reliable partner for the world. Thank you. Good morning and welcome and apologies for being late this morning. I also want to take the opportunity to welcome the press delegation from Pakistan. They've come to see how the Scottish Parliament works. They're parliamentaries from Lahore, a twin city of Glasgow. The question I wanted to ask briefly was, in terms of Quebec and its relationship, not only with Europe, but actually with the USA, does the relationship with the US is overseen by the central government or do you have a direct contribution almost in independence from the central government with the US? What kind of relationship do you currently enjoy with them? Well again, in terms of political recognition, it's the federal government and the US government. We don't have a direct relationship with the US federal government. We're present on US soil in a substantial way. It's our major trading partner. We have a large office, a general delegation in New York City. We have a bureau in Washington, and we're present in Los Angeles, Houston, Atlanta, Chicago. So we do directly deal with US interests in the fields I was talking about before, primarily economic, investment-seeking, exports, cultural industries, creating opportunities for our artists to be seen and to be there. I would say that there's less of a political relationship between the US government and the Quebec government. There are political relationships between many state governments and the Quebec government. There are institutions or instances where the governors, for instance, of the Northeastern states meet with the premiers of the Eastern Canada. So it seems to be that the relationship that you enjoy is almost similar to the one that Scotland enjoys. How could you then suggest, or do you have any ideas of how to then go to the next level where you, Quebec and Scotland, can actually directly involve ourselves with the central government to try and achieve better results? Well, you'd have to ask yourself first if it's necessary to go to the next level to achieve better results. It depends what those areas are, what the relationship is. How else you can achieve those results? I don't want to get myself involved in a political debate that leads to the next level. Clearly, I mentioned in my presentation that we don't have diplomatic status. Some areas do. Some subnational states do. I'm thinking of Flanders and Wallonia that do have diplomatic status because they're considered parts of the Belgian federal external service, even though they are outside of the embassies in many cases. We do have embedded staff from the Quebec government inside Canadian embassies, especially when it's an office or a small delegation in a country such as China, for instance, or other places where it makes a lot of sense to be within the Canadian embassy. In that sense, that facilitates, if need be, a direct relationship via the embassy for those fields of jurisdiction. Your question about the next level has many undertones to it, so I won't go there. Thank you very much. Anne, have you got a very quick question? Are you absolutely sure? Okay, that makes my life a bit easier. We could obviously have had a longer conversation this morning about all the work that both your nations do, and we're very interested in it. If there's anything else that you think you can share with our committee to help us to inform the work that we're doing, we'd be very grateful for that. We're very grateful for your presence this morning, and I think that we're looking forward to a much more informal conversation over lunch. Thank you very much for coming along, and I'm going to briefly suspend to allow us to get the video link set up. Thank you. Welcome back to the European and External Relations Committee. We are moving on to the second panel of our inquiry this morning. With us we have in the room Ian Campbell, who is the head of the Scottish Government-EU office in Brussels. From Beijing, we have on video conference John Summers, who is the first secretary of the Scottish Affairs Office in Beijing. Welcome to our committee this morning, gentlemen. We are delighted to have you here. I believe that you both have a short opening statement. I think John, would you like to go first with your opening statement? Thank you, convener. I'm grateful to have the opportunity to talk about the work of the Scottish Affairs Office in China, and I appreciate you allowing me to do so from Beijing via video conference. I've been the first secretary for Scottish Affairs since January 2013, and the third person to hold that position, and the first to have worked with the Scottish Government before taking up the post. The office is located in the British Embassy, and we focus on our six key geographic areas. Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin, Shandong, Shenzhen and Hong Kong. I have a small team of two locally engaged staff in Beijing. However, our capacity is greatly amplified by the four SDI offices throughout China under a network of 36 global Scots. The eight Scottish University representative offices here in China. Our societies in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong are a growing network of alumni and our social media site followers numbering around 30,000. I also work closely with the Embassy policy teams, particularly the Science and Innovation Unit, Research Council's UK office, the health team, and with various other policy and sector leads throughout the mission and with UKTI. I regular meetings with the Embassy's political and economic sections to ensure the Scottish Government team both here and in Scotland have the most up-to-date socio-economic and political analysis from China. I have an excellent working relationship with the British Council and we're appropriate and reciprocally beneficial. We support each other on a range of education and cultural initiatives. And we're very well supported by the Chinese People's Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries which is the arm of the Chinese Government which works with this office. While we work as part of the UK diplomatic mission, our work is fully focused on the priorities of Scottish ministers in China which are articulated in our five-year strategy. Our role is to represent the Scottish Government in China on devolved issues. Two, within the Embassy, offer constructive input and we're needed challenge on issues important to Scotland. To coordinate with and support the work of Scottish universities. To work hand-in-hand with Scottish Development International and other partners, for example Visit Scotland to be able to secure high-level access with the Chinese Government and state-owned enterprises. And finally to manage visits by Scottish Ministerial Delegations to China. I believe the work of the office has made a contribution to increases in Scottish exports to China, collaborations between Scottish and Chinese universities, the number of Chinese students choosing to study in Scotland, the number of children and young people in Scotland now studying Mandarin and learning about Chinese culture and the upward trend of Chinese tourists visiting Scotland. And I believe that many of our partners and stakeholders based in China and Scotland would support that assertion. In geopolitical terms, China views its relationship in a broad context. For example, it prioritises its relations with the European Union, the United States and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum. But it would be a mistake to believe that China does not value its bilateral relationships with individual countries at all. China is often described as a country of superlatives that may seem complex and challenging. One of the advantages for the Scottish Government of having an office here is that by developing strong government-to-government links we can more easily understand and better navigate the socio-economic political cultural differences and indeed commonalities between Scotland and China. The term guanxi is one which you hear or read about often in descriptions of Chinese culture. It is a description of the importance in Chinese culture of building trust through face-to-face networking and through developing meaningful individual government and commercial relationships. Having a full time and long-term presence in China is essential to developing and maintaining that guanxi. We are fortunate that Scotland or soguaran had an identity that is recognised within China. People know about our whisky and our food or highlands or traditions under culture. Part of myro is to use these positive and develop them further to a more in-depth and considered recognition of Scotland as a country that is creative and innovative and open for business where Chinese people and institutions can visit, invest, live, study and work. Thank you. John Ian Thank you, convener and committee members. I'm also grateful for the invite today to talk to you about the work of the Scottish Government's EU office in Brussels. By way of background, Brussels was established in 1999. It is the only Scottish Government office outside of Scotland where we have our own presence. We have people and embassies but it's where we have our own actual physical presence there. It's evolved during the time to respond to changing sister circumstances both at home and in Europe. We currently have 16 staff carrying out the work on behalf of the Scottish Government and nine who have been posted from Scotland, our Scottish Government staff and five who are locally recruited in Brussels and two interim positions which we appoint through our annual Graduate Stagiaire programme. I've been in the office since March 2008 and headed the office since late 2010 so sometime. So while the Scottish Government staff and officer are accredited to work and live in Belgium through the UK permanent representation to the EU the office is not co-located with that credit so we have our own building which many of you I think have visited. It's in Scotland House and it's in the heart of Brussels with close proximity to the main commission building European Council and the European Parliament. Since the office was established the primary role of our presence in Brussels has been and continues to be to support ministers and officials in their engagement with EU institutions in the wider EU community that operates in Brussels. So while our accreditation is through the UK permanent our work focuses on those areas of EU activity that has or could have an impact in Scotland across all policy sectors for which ministers have confidence and those where they don't have direct confidence but there could be an impact on that. An effect this about making is about ensuring it domestically we are aware of and ready to deal with the policy decisions that are made at an EU level. The office also works to identify opportunities for engagement, potential risks and provide a platform to promote Scotland through policy and cultural engagement. As engagement representation is at the core of the work in Brussels I'll say a bit more about what happens in practice. Engagement covers interaction with the main EU institutions the Parliament, the Commission and the European Council. This also extends to interaction with other actors in Brussels such as member states, regions and think tanks. It happens through various channels such as supporting ministers when they are attending council meetings facilitating attendance at council working group meetings for officials both Brussels and Scotland based. Regular meetings with the European Commission policy teams to promote Scottish interests and EU policy development and to hear their thinking on the proposals. Meetings with and briefings for members of the European Parliament and not just the Scottish MEPs and their offices making them aware of Scottish interests as well as monitoring overall work of the European Parliament and participating in the wider policy discussions in Brussels amongst the numerous actors of the EU circuit through hosting and attending policy and our cultural events. Networking and building relations is also a key part of what we do in Brussels and why we are there. The office works closely with other Scottish bodies represented in Brussels the main one is Scotland Europa the member based organisation that also has its office in Scotland House and this offers benefits for cooperation and promoting a one Scotland message externally. Brussels is the most heavily lobbied city in the world allegedly so it's important that Scottish measures is as consistent and joined up as it can be and being aware of the views of Scotland Europa and its members helps us to ensure that wherever possible Scotland is joined up in the approach it takes to EU engagement. We also work closely with the UK Parliament representation. We are in daily contact across the various policy teams and their help and support ensures that we have the most up-to-date information in policy issues that we can. It is on occasions a mutually beneficial relationship as through our own contacts we can often gather information and pass on to our grip that they may well not pick up. Networking also covers non-EU actors who are in Brussels where Scotland is in interest such as Norway and Fisheries. Our cultural diplomacy activities offer opportunities to dovetailer policy and cultural focus by promoting the best of Scotland to an international audience right in the heart of Europe. The office hosts a number of events throughout the year such as around St Andrews and Burns and the cultural front and many others on the policy agenda. These provide a platform to extend our networks deliver key messages and share best practice as well as provide an opportunity to learn from others. The Scottish Government's EU office is a well-recognised and distinctive part of the Brussels landscape. Its reputation for engagement and participation has been the result of many years of effort on the part of those who have worked there past and present and its contributed Scotland's profile in Europe and beyond and continues to do so. In concluding I want to say that the impact the Brussels office can have is dependent on the extent to which colleagues and stakeholders in Scotland are informed and engaged in EU matters by providing that link between Scotland and Brussels for ministers, officials and stakeholders that the EU office has its purpose and offers value. That's it. Thank you very much. I'm going to go to open questions for our members but I should remind you that the video link will have a slight delay so if you just be a bit patient with that. Jamie McGregor. Thank you very much. My particular region of Highlands and Islands contains most of the salmon farms and very many of the distilleries and Scottish Whiskey and Scottish Farms salmon are very valuable exports. Obviously the Chinese market is enormous or could be potentially enormous. What tools are you using to promote these? You did talk about exports what tools are you using to promote these for the economic importance of Scotland? Thank you for that question. First of all I think we're pleased to see a substantial growth in salmon exports to China of 26%. Unfortunately we've seen an equal decline in whisky exports which by way of context is due to the policy in China now for officials not being allowed to use gifts or high level dinners to promote whisky or by-do and so we've seen quite a big hit in our luxury market. One of the things I did last year was I sponsored Whiskey L which is Asia's biggest whisky expo. It has 90% distillers. I used that forum to invite VIPs from both commerce and the political fields in Beijing and in Shanghai. I also had an SDI stall and a Visit Scotland stall there so at the same time we could promote other sectors and the tourism opportunities as well. This is the year of food and drink for Scotland and so I'll be hosting a number of alumni calies and alumni events and engagements in Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen in May in fact and in Hong Kong and we'll be sourcing both our salmon and our whisky at those events and making sure that our guests realise where they come from. Thank you for that and on the Mr Campbell how do you help Scottish companies feed into the huge so disparate mass of EU income streams which can bring advancement to Scottish companies? I think you've got to understand the role of our office. Our office is more about trying to influence policy and support officials and ministers in that direct engagement with institutions. SDI have the primary role in supporting companies and SDI office in Paris would be the ones to do that. John Smith mentioned seafood. When the seafood expo takes place in Brussels which we'll do next month Richard Lochhead will attend that and we'll support him when he's attending that and working with SDI to make sure that the Scottish message is put in there in that particular sector. If it's about trying to gain access to funds then again Scotland and Europa that's their primary purpose there as part of Scottish Enterprise is slightly different to that rather it's not an investment focus in that sense. So your focus is more political and cultural? Yeah. What tools do you use particularly to focus on Scottish culture? Well Scottish culture we're very fortunate that we've got a space within Scotland House where we can host events so when we do St Andrew's and Burns we find that as a great opportunity to showcase what Scotland's talent is so we work with this Royal Conservatoire to bring out young students to allow them to get an experience of performing on an international stage we've used young musicians of the year previously from Scotland everything we're doing this year is about promoting the year of food and drink last year it was about homecoming so we've tied into those steam years so all our events we take the opportunity to get those messages across so any public event we're doing in that sense that's what we're doing and we're doing it for the best of our talent and artists. We also refresh an exhibition within the conference centre each year and this year it will again be themed into the year of food and drink but we're looking to operate with Scottish artists and those who are in Scottish colleges as well who are having the past to showcase what they're doing but the events aren't all about culture there's very much a policy theme there as well about being able to share the best practice and policy terms and learn from others. And what about political themes? What the co-priorities are for Scottish Government and Scottish ministers and having that engagement direct with the commission with the Parliament where we can and making sure that we're working without CREP to try to get those Scottish messages across. Thanks. Thank you, good morning. Ian, what you say is fantastic I mean it's very refreshing to see that we're still building on our previous successes and that's fantastic. Perhaps you can shed some light on what are we doing for our dairy products in Brussels office and yourself have concentrated on the main alcohol in particular and then also on our salmon industry and other industries but I would like to think that our dairy products are very valuable and a very valuable commodity I'm just wondering what support do we give our smaller holdings to export those products? Again, the export and making them a lot of that will be done through Scottish Development International. From our office's point of view at events we want to use Scottish produce where we can cheese is probably one of the easiest ones that we can do because it's easier to transport easier to get and easier to use so when we're doing that not for all but for most of the events where we can do we're using Scottish produce that's there and cheese from the dairy sector as an office we're able to do that. We work closely with the policy teams back in Scotland and if there are things happening at a new level that may have caused concerns to the industry we would expect that to be fed in through the policy teams back in Scotland and we'd be working with them to make sure that we're trying to influence the commission or influence the department, we're in a position to do that. In terms of supporting smaller manufacturers in the industry in terms of our dairy product and possibly even specialist I think items that are famous all around but we're not being able to sell them as well as whisky and other items and I think it's all about the level of support that we give people particularly the smaller companies whilst you do presentation and events do we actually go beyond that and is there any scope for that you feel that perhaps you could be looking at? What about questions from the better address to SDI or Scottish Enterprise and the support that they give direct to businesses? We have very little contact directly with the manufacturers with those businesses because it will be up to them to determine whether Brussels or Belgium is a market that they want to get into and if it is then we work with them and certainly through the year of food and drink we've been working very closely with the policy team that are leading on the food and drink the food and drink colleagues to see what opportunities there may well be as we go forward in the year and we'll be advised from them and where we can from a platform we'll do that whereas we need to try to get messages across particularly if there's regulations that are going to cause them problems then we will work with them to try to influence that but as far as promoting business and getting the chance to do it it's less I think the role of the Beijing office in Washington probably have a more of an opportunity to do that because they're there to do it they're working much more closely with the SDI SDI doesn't have a presence within Brussels because it chooses to go to Paris because that's where they see it being and they recognise that Brussels is a city when businesses are there they're generally there to try to influence the commission and the policies that are coming out of the institutions rather than there to try to create direct investment opportunities that's not the main purpose of them being there just finally chair I accept what you say in terms of the Scottish Enterprise's involvement with industry and all the rest of it but I think I'm trying to sort of dovetail the two together in the sense that you complement each other I was hoping that perhaps you may be in a position to advise and guide them as well that what opportunities or additional opportunities there are for some of the products that perhaps we have not been zealous enough to export in particular it comes down to testing the market and we don't have the expertise to work out what the Belgian market wants and what it needs and that's where SDI do and they know the business and the business themselves will know what the potential markets are and if we can help this, absolutely we will do that Scotland Europa is part of the Scottish Enterprise SDI is part of the Scottish Enterprise and we work collaboratively together on whether it be events or trying to promote messages and I think I said before working closely together means we can get a one Scotland approach to things so if there's an opportunity to get over a Scottish message then we'll do that but what we're not really geared up to do is we start saying ok then in the dairy products they want to sell Scottish cheese well you're competing with the market is there a market in Brussels for that there may be but it may be a kind of niche market but we're not able to make that connection in that way because it's not the purpose that we've been set up to I didn't want it limited just to Brussels I'm quite keen to send it as far as China if possible Absolutely, in that sense there's probably a better place to answer that without passing the buck I think it's probably looking to ask an SDI what are they doing what are they doing to try to help these businesses because that's their main purpose in being there I'm just thinking maybe it's some of the questions this morning we should direct them to SDI in Scotland Europa so we can have a look at that I have Ann up next Thanks convener and good morning Mr Summers Could I possibly ask you how far down the road you are in adopting a Scotland House approach in Beijing We're not currently looking into that option the reason being that the Chinese Government would put very strict protocols on where we could cite a Scotland office so I have diplomatic status and the UK Embassy in part of that status requires me to be within the UK compound so as yet we would be able to have a separate entity that exists in Beijing because of the Chinese diplomatic protocols Thank you That's interesting and also the last relates to the last question the Scottish Development International Offices in the same country how well and in what ways do you work with them I think in China we're probably one of the countries where our role is inextricable I need to work very closely with SDI in terms of one of our key priorities around economic sustainable growth SDI need me as well because China has certain restrictions government restrictions on access to state-owned enterprises so for example if SDI wanted to have a high level meeting with PetroChina or Scenic I would have to open up that meeting with the relevant ministry first and get them the access before they could have the business meeting so our role is really kind of one team we work really closely as well they have four offices throughout China and I use those offices as bases to engage with stakeholders and their alumni and promote Scottish ministerial interests we have a very good working relationship also with Visit Scotland who we try and represent in various expos and in various meetings tours and meetings within China as well but we absolutely consider ourselves as one team albeit we have distinct roles and lastly and very loosely I do hope that you're not missing the Scottish weather as much as we are and just to inform you that it was snowing on the way from Glasgow to Edinburgh this morning thank you I'm not missing the Scottish weather but I'm missing your very clean fresh air I have to say Thanks very much and Rod Campbell Good evening Mr Samas I'd like if I may just to talk about the role of SAO in supporting Scottish universities in China and whether you could give us an update on how that was going and whether immigration restrictions in the UK in terms of post student visits etc was having any kind of detrimental impact Thank you, I'm very fortunate we have eight full time Scottish University representative offices in China and we work very closely in fact we see ourselves as a single team I suppose the advantage of us working in country in China is we work as a team and they need to compete or they don't need to compete with each other I did a series of alumni dinners last year and I'll repeat them this year where we asked Chinese Scottish alumni to look at ways in which they could promote Scotland as a place to study in their own chambers of commerce in their high schools and so on and all of them left each of the dinners with a commitment to do that and to keep us updated on our webo site I was pleased to see that the Smith commission added a point of consideration to look at the work-stay visa status for Scottish students I think that's very important and I think that would make us much more competitive You're right, I think we've seen a slight decline in the number of Chinese students coming to Scotland and certainly being able to have that flexibility in work-stay visa would make us much more competitive and we saw that under the fresh talent initiative Thank you, slightly different question in relation to the use of social media, Facebook, Twitter or whatever, is there scope for expanding that in your office in Beijing? Absolutely, so we have a webo site and webo is the Chinese version of Twitter, we currently have 30,000 users we've built up from 15 to 30,000 over two years, we use them to promote various cultural or commercial or government priorities in China they support us for example when we're doing expo so we did a tourism expo in Tianjin one of the biggest cities in China and we used our social media sites to call on volunteers we had 200 volunteers, some willing to travel two or three thousand miles to come and work for us for free we're also now developing a Weixin site Weixin is a little bit more like Facebook, it's more popular in China at the moment, when I say more popular it has about half a billion active users we're developing at the moment with our international marketing colleagues and we're hoping to bring Scottish Development International and visit Scotland onto the same portal so that Chinese social media users have a single point of access to find out information on investing or visiting or studying in Scotland That's quite encouraging Can I have a question for Mr Campbell now in relation to TTIP I wonder if you could advise as to what extent your office in Brussels has been involved in any part of the TTIP negotiations in protecting devolved interests We're not directly involved in negotiations negotiations are taking place between the commission and the US What we do is work closely with the UK to make sure that we are feeding into them the concerns that we have around TTIP and to get updates on what's coming out of that we also engage closely with our colleagues in the business directorate back in Scotland who are linked in with business innovation skills in London who are co-ordinate for the UK so we're feeding back information and making sure we're up to speed with what the positions are at the side Are you getting any specific feedback from business in Scotland on it? Well the direct contact with the business in Scotland will be done by the officials here but what we're picking up is the same, the messages that are coming out around the concerns around the health service and ISDS and everybody's very much aware of that and monitoring what's happening the next round of negotiations will take place next month so we'll wait and see what comes from there Thank you very much Adam Ingram Yes I'd like to ask both gentlemen about the relationship with the UK counterparts in their operations I know you've got a separate setup in Brussels that's different to what we have in Beijing and for Mr Summers in particular I'm interested in how the profile of Scotland in China a distinctive profile is there one developing Is that being assisted by your UK colleagues or is there an element of competition if you're seeking to develop the same market say for example in terms of students for our universities as opposed to universities in England so maybe if Mr Summers could kick us off on that one Perhaps I could maybe explain more about my relationship with the embassy so I think the UK embassy are clear that I don't replace their responsibility to Scotland rather I compliment it but the difference is my priorities on those of Scottish ministers and my resources are absolutely directed at the Scottish international framework I get very good support from the embassy in a number of areas so for example in terms of the expertise on diplomatic issues or economic or political issues that are complex I work really closely with some of the teams for example the health team and I guess to answer your question that's where I do come in and offer a challenge to say if we're looking at a high value opportunity to what extent is Scotland represented and I've been playing quite a significant role the last two years to make sure that our colleagues in the embassy understand that our health system is different that we have different qualities for example our Scottish funding council our ability to pull research we have the biggest teaching hospital in the European Union and that's helped them to focus more towards Scotland I don't necessarily see it as a competition I think the way the UK embassy would view me as if I have a win for Scotland that's a win for the UK if I'm being entirely honest I think I'm probably more pragmatic I take the bits that are good for me and the bits that are not I develop myself but on the whole I think we have a really good constructive relationship where I can I try and pull resources so if I can find extra resourcing for a cultural exhibition from British council I'll use that facility if for example through the great campaign I can get access to 40 travel journalists if it's done in the past I do that in fact that's an example a few months ago the great campaign had 40 journalists senior travel journalists from China and I asked if I could do a presentation and I took my own pull-ups and I talked about my own priorities and I talked about what we wanted to do in Scotland and the great campaign had no issue with that because for them that was me promoting the whole of the UK but I guess that's your question I'm probably more pragmatic in some of the collaborations Can I follow up with a quick question on how you actually measure progress in terms of the awareness of Scotland in China and what Scotland a good relationship with Scotland in China can mean for people in China is there a way of measuring progress? I suppose formally we would measure through the targets in our strategy so we are seeing an increase in Scottish exports to China I think that was 580 million in 2013 we are seeing a growth in tourists going to from China to Scotland I think something like we had 34,000 tourists going from Scotland at 17% of the UK total I think that's a good measure of our recognition as a brand as I said our social media site has 30,000 followers which is pretty significant for our country perhaps I could give a bit of an anecdote as one way in which I think that we have developed our presence in China pretty well the first minister came to China in 2013 November the Chinese hold what they call a liangwe which is an annual meeting of their parliament it's a very sensitive period for them and they don't give any notice they usually give one or two weeks notice they're about to hold that parliament during that occasion they do not host foreign delegations they do not invite any foreign delegations into the country unfortunately for us our visits have been fixed for November and we didn't have any notice of liangwe when I requested to the state council which is the cabinet of China for a meeting with Mr Sam and the then first minister they gave us a meeting with state councillor Yang Jiechui who is the most senior foreign affairs state counciller on the whole of China for me and I think for the embassy the Chinese government sees Scotland as a country they want to do business with and as I said it was not normal to be hosted during that very sensitive period could I ask Mr Campbell a similar question to Mr Sam we have a very positive relationship with Ocret we engage with them on a regular basis across the different policy areas there are many more of them than there are of us so sometimes that means we are having to cover different desks but with one person our main purpose is making sure they know what the Scottish position is I think it's important to recognise that the UK position when it's agreed in the UK is agreed in London so it's not agreed out in Brussels but we just want to make sure that whatever that position has been put forward it reflects what we understand to be the Scottish position there a lot of it comes down to the personal relationships that have been built up and our partner needs to do a lot of the running so it is about us making that approach and reminding them that we're there I suppose nine times at ten in the areas where we work together we want to achieve exactly the same thing on occasions where we might want to achieve a different result for Scotland it's making sure that the UK knows what our position is and what we're saying operating in no surprises culture so there's nothing going to come back and that way it works I found that works it works pretty well they're pretty open in making sure that we get the information that we need even in areas that we don't have competence where we can demonstrate there's a link to what we're trying to do so in the bigger stuff, in T-Tip for example we have a good relationship with Utrecht to make sure that we're getting that flow of information that we would find to get difficult elsewhere so a lot of it comes down to the personal relationships that you build up but also demonstrating that you're competent you understand you know your own topic and you can have a conversation with them on that basis Just one supplementary you perhaps heard my earlier question to the previous witnesses about international reputation and what it is that you're trying to get across to our friends across the world what would you say would be the distinctive features of the international reputation that you're building for Scotland or seeking to build for Scotland A confident Scotland knows its stuff is prepared to share wants to learn when you engage with the commission people go to the commission often to try to get something out of it I think for us what we've been able to demonstrate is we're there as a partner we want to be a partner and where we've got something to offer we want to share that we also want to learn and if there are opportunities for us to gain something back that's the message that we're trying to give at an EU level and it comes across quite strongly and for the time that I've been there when I first went out to Brussels when you said you worked for Scotland you must be interested in fish fish seemed to be the only thing that was there it was only game in town that's no longer the case it is energy it's what we're doing in an innovation sense academic cohort can deliver on that so it's much more of a what we describe as modern Scotland and what we're trying to get over so certainly in the Brussels arena and through that the connections we've had with Member States and the Parliament I think you see that that message is coming through and people recognise that now Thank you very much Thank you very much Billy Coffey Thank you very much convener and hello Mr Campbell and Mr Sumbers just to continue that theme there the strength that Scotland does have in many areas that have been mentioned are they of equal interest would you say within the European Union and China is there a similar interest in developing our strengths in China as there may be in the European Union and could I just invite you to maybe look a little bit further ahead and say where you think the greatest potential for Scotland lies is it developing the tourism market for example with China or do we have direct flights to Scotland from China or could there be progress in the digital economy with China so where do you see our strengths lying are they of equal interest within the two jurisdictions that you're working in and where are the greatest opportunities for us to develop our business John, do you want to go on that one first about what China is? Yeah, I think there's a a very strong match between the strengths we have in Scotland and what China is looking for so for example in China's from 2011 to 2016 they identified seven priorities many of which we have key strengths and so for example new energy energy conservation biotechnologies and new materials new IT high-end equipment manufacturing and clean energy vehicles they're also very interested in looking at well-being so the targets in China is to roll out universal healthcare for the whole for 95% of the population by 2020 they have an innovation target to ensure that China has 3.3 patents per 10,000 people I think and also they want to increase their enrollment in education from 82.5% to 87% these are all areas where I think we can offer a lot one model we've been using that has worked very well is we've been working with the Scottish funding council and the Royal Societies of Edinburgh to bring out our innovation centres to come and speak to the Academy of Sciences the Academy of Sciences is China's academy probably is the largest funding pool of any other academy in China to work with them and see what opportunities we have in areas like stratified medicine like biomass, like sensor and imaging that meeting was in November and there's going to be a reciprocal delegation coming back to Edinburgh to see where we can collaborate not just in research but looking how we can take that research into policy and also commercialisation new perspective I think it's important to recognise China's engagement in Brussels rather than individual member states who are there it also has the biggest presence of any diplomatic mission there I think there are over 600 accredited diplomats in the Chinese Embassy for us in trying to make sure we're influencing it is making sure the commission know what we've got to offer and that's almost kind of triangulation between China, Scotland, Brussels and our office's role is making sure that we can do particularly on the marine energy side is making the commission see where Scotland's leading that message across when the EU's having discussions with China or America or whoever it may well be that it recognises the role that Scotland can play in that but we have no direct connection connections with the Chinese in Brussels Mr Summers did you say do we have direct flights yet or are we working trying to work towards that to bring Chinese visitors directly to Scotland I know you mentioned some impressive numbers earlier but are we working are we trying to work towards that Yes absolutely visit Scotland the Scottish Government SDI and Scottish Enterprise have been working for the last two years along with my office to try and negotiate with Scottish airports and airport authorities in China to try and negotiate a direct air route we're further on than we were certainly it's a longer process we've made a I think the team Scotland's approach has worked well for the Middle East we're working with one of the largest travel agencies in the whole of China to try and promote Scotland as a destination for tourism and for commerce there are negotiations ongoing I'm afraid that they are commercially sensitive so I can't really give much more of an update at the moment I would say there is progress I don't think that when I fly back in a couple of months time it will be a direct route to Scotland unfortunately but there has progress been made certainly over the last 12 months Do you have any further questions that you would like to pick up on? Nope well I think we have exhausted our questions for both our visitors this morning to committee can I say a direct thank you to you Ian Campbell for coming to committee and a very warm thank you and hopefully maybe a breath of fresh air in the way of John Somers this morning for joining us from Beijing and all of the work that you do and thank you so much for what you have offered the committee this morning agenda item 3 is the Brussels bulletin and I know that we have skated through the Brussels bulletin in the past few meetings because we've been very squashed for time we have a bit of time in hand this morning if you want to do a deeper analysis of the Brussels bulletin and I can see Jamie ready to get in there immediately Jamie it seems to be an awful lot on energy it's quite it's very significant at the moment because there has been a problem with bees reported in Italy and it's very obviously I mean anything that affects the pollination process is pretty vital to agriculture all over Europe and so I think that you know something on bee health is very important and I really do we do have our own beehives in the parliament now don't we but do we? it's the honey I think it's the experimental thing that's going on right now no but you're absolutely right I'm glad to see that I didn't really see anything else in the particularly I still would like to say that I thought the other format was much better I really do think it was much better I mean it was like a bulletin this is not a bulletin it's just a load of facts Rodz Can I have a comment rather than a question it's just on the renewable section obviously it's a bit disappointing to see how it's all the successful member states in terms of meeting the target for 2020 by the EU that the United Kingdom seems to be further away than any other member state to reaching that's targets and obviously that's in mark contrast to what's happening here in Scotland Billy Coffey The issue again in the digital agenda members will be aware that we have heard that the European Union has delayed its abolition of roaming charges I'd like us to try to find it a little bit more around this why that decision was taken who was consulted on it because it seems to me convener that it's completely at odds with the commission's strategy for the single digital market to me and it's a real disappointment that if that's the case it could be delayed for a further three years so I'd like us if we could find out a little bit more about this and where that decision has reached and who agreed it Okay, we can do that Definitely Any other comments, questions clarifications on the Brussels bulletin Happy to make it available to other committees Yeah Okay, thank you very much Moving on to agenda item four which is that Sorry, Jamie Just on the first thing about the investment and the EFSI I noticed the last sentence in it said the EFSI can only become operational once the parliament and member states are in a common position I just wonder when that will happen because if the EFSI is so important in bringing forth growth within Europe and it's rather vital it gets going but as far as I can see it's not going to get going until they can adopt a common position and how long is that going to take Yeah, one of the challenges for the because it's the Unicard investment plan is the proposed cuts to horizon 2020 or a reallocation of that money to the investment plan rather than to horizon 2020 and I think the impact that that would have on Scottish universities is quite worrying Well it's £16 billion so it's a lot of money More info I'd just quite like to know when it says the EFSI can only become operational once the parliament and member states have adopted a common position I mean how long is that likely to take I mean what's involved there We can find that out Thank you very much Okay happy to move on now Agenda item 4 is the Scottish Government's draft budget We have it in front of you Agreed Sorry? Agreed to note it Some details so it's very helpful as well Okay moving on to agenda item 5 which we agree to take in private so I'm going to suspend briefly to allow us to go into private session Thank you