 Hello, and welcome back to another broadcast of Understanding China. I am Xiaofang, coming to you from the ThinkTech station in beautiful downtown Honolulu. Through this series, we show China from the inside through Chinese ice. How is immense, complex, and a beautiful country of China developing and changing? How do Chinese people see themselves and their role in the world? What are their hopes and visions? Today, we are fortunate to catch Roger Epstein, a leading attorney and a legal expert, on a brief visit to Honolulu. Roger has been a guest lecturer in international law at Beijing Foreign Study University in the center of the capital of China for two months, and is returning there tomorrow to complete the spring semester. Roger has seen the big, dynamic slice of life in China, connecting with the bright mind of some of its leading students and has a lot to share. So Roger, thanks for taking time to join us. Hey, you're welcome, Xiaofang. So nice to see you here in Hawaii. So you come here very short time. You just arrived. I did. I came on Monday. I'm leaving Friday. My son-in-law is graduating from a master's program at UH, so I just dropped back for that occasion. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. My first question to you, you have retired. I have. You've been as a lawyer, tax lawyer, legal expert for over 50 years. Yes. Yes. All your life. Pretty much. You can go anywhere you want to. Five-sevenths of my life. Yeah. So my question is, why you choose to move to China and teaching student at Bay Y. Yeah. You know, somehow when I came to Hawaii in 1972, I almost immediately got involved with Chinese things. I had two big clients in Hong Kong, a British company and a Chinese company. I got involved with the acupuncture school and became chairman of the board of the acupuncture college. I started going to Hong Kong every six months and doing business there. And then 1982, I went to Beijing for the first time when it was still really a third-word country. And then I went back in 94. In 2007, I was asked to take lawyers from China to come to our office at the Cade Shuddy law firm where I was the head of the tax department and to help them learn about U.S. law and how things go in the United States. These were fairly seasoned lawyers. And the reason that this, I was asked to do this, I was told in 2007 that there were a number of Chinese lawyers who were really smart and hardworking. They were all 35 or 40 because there were no lawyers from 40 to 60 because of the cultural revolution. And so we began to mentor lawyers and take them there. Now we have 15 alumni from that program. And then I proceeded because of that to get involved with the Shanghai bar and the Suzhou bar. Suzhou is a small, second-tier city about half hour from Shanghai of 13 million people. And all very interested in what's going on in the United States, how to connect with the United States. And we were able to connect the Hawaii Bar Association, a collaboration agreement with the Shanghai bar and the Suzhou bar. Between Suzhou and Shanghai, they have the same population as the state of California. Isn't that incredible how many people they have and how interested they are in American law? So I think there's such an opportunity for collaboration with China. They're coming up, the United States is at a peak, kind of coming down. And they're becoming more of a balanced world, collaborators, competitors, partners. That's how I see it. Like a yin and yang. Like a yin and yang. And the world changes all the time. We've been at the top of the heap since really World War II, 70 years. And they struggled until 1978 after their revolution, after they came out of the Mao period of complete communism. Now China calls themselves, rather than communists, they call themselves socialists with Chinese characteristics. Exactly. Yeah. You know that. But I'm just telling the audience. And they have so much admiration for the United States, appreciation for how the United States has helped them and how they've been partners to a certain extent in developing manufacturing. And everywhere you go in China, people have on American t-shirts. And they may not even be able to read it. You couldn't even recognize it. It's overseas Chinese or American. No. You can't tell the difference. When I first went to Beijing in 1982, everybody wore a mall jacket and a mall cap. The only thing you could wear was blue, green or brown. Right. Today, everybody's wearing blue jeans and t-shirts. And in fact, the big fad there is the same thing here with the jeans that are all ripped up. I know. I know. And every shopping center features products from everywhere in the world. Louis Vuitton and American products, everything. Whatever you have here, you have it in China. And what you don't have here, China also have it. That's right. Right. That's right. They have so much. And things are so expensive there. So I've had this experience three times now, twice with friends in Hong Kong and once with somebody in Beijing. They said, we're going to take a trip to the United States. And my wife told me, bring two suitcases with nothing in it so they can fill it up shopping in the United States. Oh, my goodness. That's the other way around when I traveled to U.S. 30 years ago. Yes. You know, I bring empty suitcase and a full... For China. Because it was so cheap. Cheap. Everything was cheap. I used to stay at the Hilton in Hong Kong for $25 a night in the 70s. It was already, I think, $7,500 in Hawaii for a room, $25 a night and a dollar and a half for breakfast. So the question is, why do you choose to teaching in China? Well, I started a company with you called the Asia Pacific Group. And we're doing a lot of interesting things there. And Russell Liu, a Chinese lawyer who's been teaching at Bay Y for about 10 years, said, hey, Roger, why don't you come and teach for a semester at Bay Y? And I thought it'd be an opportunity to spend more time there. My Chinese is very rough. Maybe I'll learn a little more about the language. You've been learning your Chinese on your own. Well, we sure... A little bit of Chinese, I can speak. And I thought it'd be a good opportunity to spend more time with business, with the company. And learned a little bit about China, an opportunity to work with young children, young kids. And just get to know China a little better and to have some opportunity to work with, like I said, young children who are, I tell my kids in class, the Chinese-US connection is if you're going to be an international lawyer or an international business person for the next 30 years, this is going to be one of the most important connections, aspects of your doing business. How China goes with the United States? Yeah. So the Chinese is also expanding. The business is even law firm. They have opening branches, offices in the US and all over the... I have a couple of law firms now that want me to help them open offices in the United States. But we're going through a phase now where the Chinese are kind of talking out of both sides of their mouth. Their five-year plan is to go out and invest in more places around the world. But they have currency restrictions that keep people from bringing money out. So we're not seeing the kind of outflow that we will in a year or two when that changes. Well, I think that there is lots of people have question on that. There is a special panel, the procedure you need to go, whether you are a private investor or ISOE, you have to go through the, let's say, Ministry of Commerce and to file the application form and go into approval. Yeah. This is the way. If you're opening a bigger business or you're doing something that Chinese want, particularly a business that has IP, then you can get permission. But you can't buy a house and it's hard to buy a small business and you have to demonstrate that you really want to be in business, you're not just trying to get money out of the country or you're not just trying to get connected. So eventually you can move to the United States. So yeah, what was the most inspiring time you saw or learned in China during this past two months? Well, I've been devoting a lot of time to the students and I've been enjoying that. I have two classes that I teach in legal writing. Now these are classes learning American law, American case law in English. And so I'm amazed at how you could, you know, you've got to be pretty smart to learn a whole legal system in a foreign language. But the girls students, the women students are much more invested, much more focused than the men. So of the 22 students in each class, four men and 18 are women. And so I've been trying to help them a little bit. And I had a student who was not doing too well. So I've been there already. It's a girl? A guy. I've been trying to help the guys because they're struggling. I asked people why the guys aren't doing so well. He said, well, we're in a foreign language is a big part of these classes. And the women are just better in linguistics. And the boys get discouraged and they don't want to participate. Both classes, they have boys sit in the back and the girls sit in the front. And so there's this one kid, his name is K.R.A.L. And he's kind of a, I mean the kid, they're only 18, 19 years old. They're second year undergraduate students in law program. So anyway, he turns into paper. That's really good. We've been doing this for six, eight weeks. And I said, K.R.A.L. This paper you turned in was really good. And he says, well, he said, I just listened to what you told us was wrong about the papers last week and I fixed it. And I thought, that's incredible. So maybe he doesn't need to help. And he doesn't now and he speaks up in class now. And interestingly, none of the girls will speak up. If you ask them a question, all 20 of them will kind of look down. Okay, who would like to comment on this? Everyone's looking down like that. So Roger, we take a break and it's for the commercial and we'll be right back. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. Of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea is on Think Tech Hawaii every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music and Hawaii Anna all across the sea from Hawaii and back again. Aloha. Welcome back. So Roger, what are the young Chinese people are thinking about? What they're thinking, you know, their family like and, you know, thinking themselves, the personal family and their goals and their life. You know, stuff that we're young Americans think about. Yeah, I think the same. I think it's very similar in the sense that they come to college. They want to get an education. They want to have a career. They're very focused on career and money, making money. Remember that Chinese didn't have anything. Their parents had nothing. And China didn't really get going until after Tiananmen Square. They opened up out of total communists. You can't even own property in 1978, 1978, to beginning to have your own farm and then real estate development. A lot of people made a lot of money, but a lot of people didn't. And then starting about 89 or 90, things started to grow dramatically. Shanghai opened up, became a financial center. And so now 25 years later, the children of people who have made some money want to see their careers grow. They want to find a way to be successful. I think they need a lot of education. I think they need a lot of understanding as a lawyer about ethics. The law is not the same law. People in China don't look at the law the same way as we do. It's almost, well, the law is something you try to get around. So you don't have to deal with it. And so I see them interested, and they're phenomenally interested in the United States. Remember, I'm teaching legal writing, American case law, the kids at undergraduate school in China. It's amazing. And so I think they want to know about what's going on in the United States. And they want to understand how that relates to their career and what's happening in China. So that's what I mostly see. And I try to introduce them to some thoughts about ethical business and ethical law, and as well as understanding how to understand a case, how to read. China is a civil law country. And so the reason they're studying American case law is because international business is all done in English. And it's all based on the common law. Contracts are based on common law. Torts are based on common law. So if you want to be in an international program, you need to understand that. And everybody speaks English in the business world. And you might as well study American law or case law as anything else, because we're still the leaders in the world. So that's what I think. The Chinese still have a tremendous reverence for family. Everybody there pretty much is an only child because they had a one-child policy. I'm told by all my fellow teachers that all the kids are spoiled rotten. And yeah. And you need to give them responsibility. And you need to let them stand up and speak. And so I get them to do that. And they're very, I give some long homework assignments to write material for. And then they come to class and we go over it. And then I get them to stand up and present what we've talked. I also get them to go over each other's papers. So they learn how to critique another paper. And I make them, I tell them, you'd be hard on this person. They're not used to that, but that's what you need to do. And I also tell them that it's not all about competition. You learn to collaborate. When you practice law, you usually have co-counseled if you're in a big law firm. You may have three or four other lawyers working on this case. So make sure you get the best possible product. You do the best job you can. Take responsibility. Do the best job you can. You want to work with two or three people and it's fine. You guys work together. Get the best possible result you can. And I'm very, I think this is a good group. I think this is a good time for China. These are not people who grew up in the Depression era, like my parents did, in China. The Depression was kind of maybe through 1990, but certainly through the 70s, up until 80, 82. And so they have a different mentality. Different time. Different times. The world is the people seems come together. I think so. I think it's almost like the 50s and 60s in the United States. That's kind of how I see it. And they have the same opportunity in China that my generation had in the 50s and 60s. Life is open for them. Parents have enough money to give them an education. They're going to travel. The world is so much more global now. Everybody has two iPhones. So what do you see the motivation from the students? Why they picked the law? That's a good question. I think some of it has to do with economics. They see the law as a good way to make money. It's also a way to get an education that's usable. I mean, you get an undergraduate degree anywhere. What do you do with it? So if you want to be a lawyer, now you've got something when you come out of school. And I think there's an interest in that. So describe what is your day look like. You wake up in the morning. Well, I've got a nice situation there. Yeah, I wake up. My first class on Monday is 8 to 10. So I go to class and we have a breakfast before that. Yeah, I have breakfast in my room. My room is two buildings from where I teach. So I get up. I have a little room. Has a living room and a separate bedroom and a bathroom. It's right in the dormitory on campus. And then I go to the class. I teach. And then I have another class at 1 o'clock, a tax law class. So I'm teaching two legal writings and one tax law class. And then I'm finished for the day. I'm off Tuesday. And I have one more legal writing class from 10 to 12 on Wednesday. And then I'm off the rest of the week. But I got a grade papers. I got to prepare for the class. I've gotten into a routine that's much better. And then, of course, we have our company, which is on the other side of town. And as you know, go over there and do some work over there. And we have some meetings. And we've been to a couple of cities since I've been there. I did a great thing. This is a wonderful thing. I bought a bicycle. And I'm having so much fun on my bicycle. Yeah. So you write that to Summer Palace. I rode to the Summer Palace. I rode to there's so many nice parks in China. Oh, yeah. And Beijing is almost flat. It's so beautiful. It's a beautiful city. Well, it's not a fascinatingly interesting city because they've torn down so many old buildings and built new ones. But the parks are wonderful. But there is remaining. There are old buildings and walls. And they refurnish. In some places, they have refurbished. And it is nice. It is. It is. And I'm getting to know the city so much better on my bike. So now I'll work a cup. So after Wednesday, I'm off from Wednesday to Monday. But I'll always have papers to correct and prepare for the next class. So I can work a few hours, get on my bike, take a two or three hour bike ride around the city, come back. Now you're really actually living in China. And you're working in China with especially the young children and the young students. So what is the change? Is there any change of your view or learned or gained? There are better understanding about China? What's happening? I've been going to China regularly since 2011. Twice a year. Go there for two or three weeks. So I'm there for like a month, month and a half. Mostly in Shanghai and Suzhou. And Beijing's a little bit different. You're living in a hotel. You're meeting with the businesses. This is such a different setting, right? It is. It is. It's really living. And you see a lot what you didn't see when you were in business trips. Yeah. Well, I think you're on campus too. And that's a little bit of a special kind of world. But I'm really fascinated in the young people. And I think the young people in both our country and China really need help and guidance. And they have an opportunity to change the world. You see how difficult things are in the United States today. We're having so many confrontations. Does our kind of democracy work anymore? One person, one vote, when you can gerrymander, when you've got people who are so again, does it work in what goes on in China? I mean, China is up and coming. And everybody's optimistic because their parents had it so much worse. In the United States, I'm in my 70s now. We've got generations who are looking back two generations to me saying, you had it really good. I can't even buy a house anymore. So on the other hand, China's got all its problems with civil rights. People can't speak. There are people who are afraid to talk. And so that's not good. So I see that generation, the 20-somethings, up to 30 maybe needing to come together, being citizens of the world, maybe find a little better way to govern, find a little better social structure. And I like being a part of that. This is a small piece. I'm hoping to learn more. I'm working with some, I'm meeting a lot of interesting people in China who have the same kind of goals and who, here's something that bothers me. I mentioned to you how much admiration there was for the United States and how people all look, you walk down the street, you could be anywhere in the world, the United States and Europe. People are, the guy on the street is not happy with what Mr. Trump is doing. Right or wrong? Time is just coming to, I have a lot of questions, and I really feel that U.S. and China has so much to offer with one another. It's maybe not just the one answer, it's a collaboration. And this is a new time, new world, the new generation with a new mind. And I really looking forward to the more collaboration, but with a better understanding. So I hope you have a lot of fun. I know you're gonna be returned back to China very soon. And I hope that one day we'll bring you back for another interview after the completion of your semester. So that's all the time we have today. My name is Xiaofeng and we have been talking to Roger Epstein, who will be living for China once again. And we wish him a safe trip until next episode. Aloha. Aloha.