 So yeah, songwriting, right? This is songwriting. How many of you guys are songwriters here? Everyone in the frickin' room better raise your hand. Yeah, gum. I don't know. I thought about it once. We're songwriters, and we've got songs to write, so that's what we're here to learn about, right? You guys are getting here like, I don't know. Man, what a privilege it is to write songs, huh? Especially for the church. We get to put words in people's mouths. Sometimes I think about that. It's quite a weighty privilege, actually. Quite a weighty gravitas-type deal where there's a lot of importance on that, because I think sometimes you can write songs and put the wrong things in people's mouths, and that ain't good, especially when people get mad at you for using the wrong words. You never know, man. One day when I had a full class just on the emails I received, because they were so fun. They were literally like, hey, do you know what that word means? This is Facebook, always Facebook. Do you know what that word means? And I'm like, uh, yeah. Why didn't you use that in a song? I stopped responding a long time ago, but for real, it is a really, really weighty thing that we get to do. We get to write songs, especially for the church, putting words in people's mouths, and the congregations' mouths. That's a big thing. So obviously we've got to be dialoguing with the Holy Spirit. Anna talked a little bit about that this morning. Talking to them about, hey, what season are we in as a church? What season are we in as a community? What should I be actually feeding the people in my church? What do we want to say back to God? Those are the questions that I'm often asking when I'm going to write a song, especially if it's for the church. You know, if it's just for me and my wife, and I'm just asking maybe Marvin Gaye what I should write on that. It's got right here because the biggest eye roll. Yeah, sorry, I'll get emails about that too. It really is a special thing though that we get to do, and so I'm excited that you guys are coming to learn about songwriting. I think it's one of the most, I don't know, unique privileges that we have in the church is to write the songs that people are going to sing. I think about like the Beatles back in whatever the 60s fit. When was that? In the 60s. 90s. 90s. My history. Back in the 1900s. 1900s. No, you know, oh, folks are mad. I'll get emails from them though. You know, I'm thinking of the Jesus movement, and the Beatles basically single handed the aerobic soundtrack to that kind of thing that happened across the earth, and they got to change and shift culture in that time. They basically got to tell people what to believe in that time. And now we, and songwriters, especially for the church, we get to tell people what to believe. You know, I'm thinking of songs like, what's that? It's the creator. What's it actually called? I believe in God our Father. This I believe. This I believe. I love that song because it's just straight in truth. There's something really beautiful about that. Is that Hillsong? Yeah. What's that? Isn't there a news boys one? I believe in God the Father. I believe in God the Father. I believe in God the Father. This is Dylan. I don't even put her name on it. Listen, you're going to get more material in heaven from this. I'm not even going to put your name on it. She actually does. She actually does. Yeah. But we get to shift and change culture. We get to tell people what to believe, what to think. You know, I'm thinking of so many of the songs that have come out. Wow. That have come out recently. Like King of My Heart. I love that song. We did it four clicks too fast. And I don't know if you guys noticed that. That's why it sucked though. You know, I'm standing there on the stage like, what is wrong with this? Like, what happened? And I look at Kayla and I said, what's that click happening? He goes, 75. And I was like, how's that supposed to be 68? Thanks, bro. And he's like, ugh. We did it so fast. But the theme of that song is the goodness of God. I'm thinking of Good, Good Father. Obviously, another song about the goodness of God. You almost feel the Father breathing on that kind of stuff. Because he's going, I want to shift the ideology concerning who I am and my people. Because so many of us, we believe that he's mean, disappointed, mad. You know, just up in heaven waiting to smite us with a lightning bolt. Like the first sin we commit, right? Like that's what I thought about God for so long. He's just waiting for me to screw up so he can send me to hell. And he's going, I wish that someone would write a song, that would get revelation first of who I actually am and put it in a song so my people could experience that. So there's this wave of songs that have come out about the goodness of God because he's going, I want people to understand that I'm not mean. I'm not a dictator. I'm not a ruler. I'm not a check the boxes and then you make it into the heaven guide. He's going, I'm kind. I'm good. And I want people to experience that. So someone like Sarah McMillan, coupled with her brilliant husband, John, they write that song, King of My Heart. And it begins to actually change the expression of Christianity, I believe, in a generation because of one song. Good, good, Father. It's one song. You know, hopefully Reckless Love, it's one song. If you don't like the word Reckless, you can get out of my friggin' class, okay? I get what I'm saying. God's like, I'm waiting for someone to actually experience me and pen it in a storm. Give people language to sing that they've never known before because my revelation hopefully has become some of y'all's revelation. You're like, oh my gosh, wait a second. He is kind. I used to think of him as mean. I thought of him like my dad was. And now in a moment, it's completely changed. And I can look at him and go, oh wait, he's actually nice. He's actually a good God who's for us, not against us, that type of thing. So that's always been my goal as a songwriter. I want to give the church language. And I want to give the church new revelation. You know, we've all heard songs about the cross before. And don't get me wrong, I love the cross. I wouldn't be here without the cross. None of us would be. But when you go like, you died upon the cross, Lord. I'm like, I couldn't know that. Either give me a new melody, a new progression. There's something that unlocks my heart or something maybe that bypasses some of the walls that are in my heart via the music or actually give me new language on it. So I think of like, what's that song? It's a Hillsong song. I think Joel wrote it. Something about madness poured out in blood. What song is that? Hear Now. That song is brilliant. The way that it describes the cross, I was like, oh my gosh, I've never thought of the cross like that. Then it was just wild. Like, it was crazy. Just poured out in blood. He didn't care what it looked like. I was like, whoa, that's Jesus. Arms wide open, bleeding on a cross. That's Jesus. So I'm thinking of songs like that that can actually shift someone's understanding because someone took the time to get revelation and then give language to the people in the room to experience it. And that's our job as songwriters. We get to do that. I mean, that's obviously a weighty thing, but it's a massive privilege as well. So that's always been my goal. I want to let these guys, I'm not going to talk all the time. Sorry. These guys get some thoughts in there as well. And then we'll just jump straight into the Q&A. I'm sure Sean's got that, like, just crispy, right? Just all lying. Burn it up. So who's talked to us, man? It's just maybe a little of your heart. Whatever you're feeling on that. Hey, guys. Man, I just, I want to say I'm so honored to be up here with these guys. There's so many other people on our team. There's such great writers that could be in this seat as well. You know, we have Rachel Culver and Anna Hasbury and Richard and Sarah who you just heard. So we're really trying to, I hope I didn't forget anybody important. Looking around, I'm like, I read too. We have a great team. So I'm so honored to be up here with these guys. You know, songwriting is, man, it's such a journey for the musician and the writer. There's just such a beautiful journey that is inside. And I think one of the amazing things about it is it's kind of, at least for me, the journey has been God's mechanism of unlocking my heart, of breaking off. You know, I kind of think about it. It's like before I started writing and trying to access those things, it's like my heart was covered in ice or it was covered in stone and then you keep hitting that spot and then it keeps coming back and you know, writer's block or you write rubbish or whatever it is and it's, you know, you can't get there to something that's powerful or has revelation or anointing on it. And then you have that small moment of breakthrough with God, whether it's in a secret place or it's on stage in a prayer room or whatever kind of way it is. If you're driving in the car, a lot of times it's in the shower. Who else gets revelation in the shower? On the first accident. On the toilet for Ryan. Emails. Yeah, emails for Cory. Emails for Cory, I agree. But you know, you have these moments where God, you know, even though you're trying your hardest, not to let him get through sometimes because you know, we're just, we're human and we're broken and he gets through and it's just like a piece of the ice, like a laser beam cuts through and there's just a little hole where he can reach that spot and your real heart begins to come out and I think that has been my journey somewhat and I think that a lot of people can identify with that is we're kind of starting broken and we're working towards wholeness and peeling back the layers to get to the good stuff which is where we, you know, have the heart of God and he's inside of us and it's no longer our egos or our insecurities and whatever else it is hiding that and then the sooner we get to that stuff the sooner we write great songs that change the world truly I believe that not just, you know, songs that are big for whatever reason or make a lot of money or have radio but songs that actually change the hearts of sons and daughters that are in search It's a sweaty microphone, I'm sorry I don't know what this song is I'll just echo what they're saying but that's all amazing we do have a lot of great worship songwriters and regular songwriters here at Radiant and I'm just honored to be with these guys and there's a lot in this room too there's a lot of great songwriters in this room and some of you might not even know it yet you might be like I don't have a horrible or really songwriter there's stuff that God has in you that needs to be released or songs that have yet to be released that are going to be released for you and you have to believe it it's hard to believe that but you guys need to believe that and actually it's stuff into that and just to echo even what Correa was saying just the value and the importance of the songwriter we can't stress it enough like there is I mean all of history has been changed by music and it wasn't just because of something that one person sang a melody and it just was caught it was like people sat down and composed and wrote music and it shifted history I mean David taught an entire nation how to love God and he did it through the songs that's why we had those books and there was actually more songs that were not recorded in the Bible we got a song on so like he taught an entire nation how to love God and David did it perfectly but he taught them how to love God through singing and all throughout history that's what the Lord's done and the Lord has designed it that way he actually made us it's because we're actually designed by God in a way where music to Correa said it bypasses it can bypass our intellect and our mind and go right to our spirit and so it's why it's glorious but it's also dangerous too because a lot of times I'm not like a no secular music guy but there's stuff that maybe we shouldn't be listening to whether it's secular or Christian where it's like bypassing our you know reckless love I wasn't talking about Correa's song Correa and Caleb's song but it can bypass our intellect and actually we believe it without even giving it a thought you know what I mean so it's glorious and we get actually there's a I would say as worship leaders and songwriters specifically were teachers whether you're on stage or not if you're writing a song and people are singing it you're actually teaching the body of Christ who God is and that revelation like if so you get revelation you can actually declare that and song people will start singing it that's what they're going to leave Sunday morning with like I love great preaching I'll pass the leaves on my favorite preachers but on any Sunday even with the best preacher you might remember like point to some you know like B of that of that sermon that might be a walk away but you'll be singing reckless love for the next month over yourself you'll be singing about the wild love of God that just chases you down you'll be singing about how good God is He is the king of your heart you'll be singing that for the next year because if someone's singing on a Sunday morning or you're hurting on the radio or whatever around YouTube but you're listening to this music it's actually gaining interest into your heart and it's actually taking root and the truth of who God is is actually taking root that revelation that the songwriter had is released and it's bypassing your mind and you're actually going right to your spirit and your mind catches up eventually but you actually get this amazing like reality that the songwriters are the teachers of our generation and actually of all generations the songwriters are the ones that can turn a country you know and turn a generation to the Lord so I just want you guys to understand the value and the importance of that and that you guys the value and the ability and the importance of you as songwriters like you are a songwriter so happy you raised your hands all of you are songwriters if you're in this room and if you've ever even like you know tried to write a song you're a songwriter just step into it own it and yeah go after it it's good man amen cue it yeah it's a cute question you got cues we got A's we got A's baby we got A's for your cues but I've always said it Palina also tell us your name and where you're from just because we're curious okay I'm Sherilyn I'm from Central Square with Life of Church nice yes where is Central Square Central Square New York okay oh yeah so Caleb's Family's Church nice that's insane wow yeah it's a pleasure to be here excited so cool I was actually at the DWI thing that you were at not to go as well where was it Florida or that of Florida the Deeper Worship Intensive oh yeah that was fun it was fun yeah I love that yeah it was fun it was an interesting so I struggled with something very interesting where I've been a songwriter but I've always written specifically more for the art of it and to feel like it it's in this specific area and mold and I'm having a hard time crossing it over into what I feel like the expectations are for congregational worship so like your verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus structure and also the simplicity of what a volunteer band needs to be able to play something yeah and I have such a love for the art of it and the poetry behind it then having a hard time marrying those things together to make a good song for congregational worship yeah no help I think that I think it's one of the cool things I've seen in the last like five years is that a lot of the formula of like a good worship song or a good Christian song is kind of gone out the window where there's almost like no I've seen it towards this I mean there's some great worship songs there's A, B, A and it's like three choruses or ABC and there's three choruses put together there's power in the name of Jesus is like one of those songs you know there's probably another like five that you could think of off the top of your head but I need a never-soothed song really it's like that a lot of never-soothed songs go like that but there are powerful songs and it's made to where those aren't hard songs to play like those aren't like the most intense songs to play but I think in some ways a lot of the old like it has to be really easy and I mean the skill level the music has gone up at least I've seen in volunteers a lot more in the last five years as well because of the accessibility of free classes online YouTube all that stuff but also at the same time all the like I feel like all the formula has gone up the window because if a song's good it just goes it just travels and it doesn't matter if there's a big like ministry or label promoting it it's like if a song has life on it it's just gonna go that's what happened with you know the first one I remember was you know he loves us I think is like that did not fit the model like the words are too poetic in the verse if you ask anyone in Nashville back then there would have been like the song that would be on the radio and it's crazy to think that this would be a good single and yet that was like a hit single and like a song that really really broke open before there was anyone like pushing that song and you guys have anything sound like that I'm sure you do yeah I think people don't know as much as we think they do like in terms of people that are making those rules about the boundaries and stuff and what you can't cross like I think we kind of make that up on our heads a little bit sometimes like I know that I do that like I'll have an idea that like I felt was from the Lord or whatever and I was like nah I can't do it because nobody will sing it you know like that's just weird thing that we kind of got on our head nobody's gonna sing it you know it's too this it's too that that's what it comes down to if it sucks it sucks if it's good it's good people will sing it if it's good and they won't if it's bad and you'll find out when you try and leave it because trust me the boy's been there and there were times when I followed all of those little rules that we put on worship music like I followed every single one like I'm just gonna write like a good song I'm gonna go intro verse chorus turn around verse chorus bridge double chorus like I'm gonna hit everything and then and it'll work oh yeah tack too and it's it's gonna go up a few notes on the chorus it's gonna be down a little bit on the verse the bridge is gonna do a chord I mean all those things right those typical things we have on our head and there's times where that stuff happens and it doesn't work it's because if the song is not good it's not good and I think we know when we take off a little bit of that cloak that I don't not sure where it came from that's kind of over worship music right now but I think when we can kind of transcend and get out of that I think the good the goodies come out yeah yeah that's really good yeah both of those answers are really good I love breaking rules I freaking hate rules I feel like I look good breaking I got coming to a stop sign nah what's the purpose of the stop sign I always ask myself why is this here and I wrap yeah I just I love just kicking rules out of the way I love it both of these guys said you know and you think about the hymns back in the day there was just all verses there was never a chorus for bartons yeah like some of them were those irish I've been good I've been good I've been good I've been good I've been good I've been good I've added a chorus to all of them to go Swedish guys you know the only reason we added a chorus to those is to give them dynamics yeah because in our day and age like if you just go probably through three verses everyone in the room is like you know everyone's bored so we I had a chorus to create dynamics, to me it's what's what's easy for the congregation I am thinking of those things things however I don't like dumbing people down and especially in the church like we think well if it's not in a five-note range and it's not really easy to sing they're just not gonna sing that's not true people with passion are gonna sing what they feel passionately about if you go to a U2 concert and you say like it's way out of everyone's range but you gotta believe they're all because they feel passionately about it and most of them are terrible singers yeah most people in the world are not proficient singers you know but they are going to sing what they want to say and so the idea that they can only sing like in a guy range from she all the way up to he is like no that's not even that's not real people are gonna sing what they feel so I like I like to kick that one out of the way but I still want to make the melody easily accessible meaning it's easy to remember the meter is clear and incites you know if you sing a long amorphous note arrhythmically with nothing to it people don't know how to reproduce that you know like if I'm like you'd be like I don't know how to like do that it doesn't make any sense but give them some rhythm give them to follow and all of a sudden it's like oh I know where that note comes in I know where that drops and just make it easy on the congregation I think you know like you don't have to follow rules but make sure that people can reproduce the sounds that you're making obviously and I'm sure you're thinking of that but you know I'm thinking of songs like Ryan was mentioning like surrounded that he did this morning I actually didn't love the whole version and I don't know if anyone else is with me but like I've never heard the full version but I'll tell you what when you go into surrounded from standing your love it frigging rules yeah like there's something about just a AB sex yeah Ryan was saying like what is it what's the two parts of the song it may look like I'm surrounded yeah those two parts they just ruled no matter what yeah I'm thinking of like the Beatles age you age you don't like there's only two parts to that song really most of their songs were that way but people could sing them and they love them and who cares whether there was verse chorus bridge tag like it didn't matter yeah I remember Nirvana wrote a song called verse I think it's literally called verse chorus verse verse chorus or something like that just to make fun of the establishment to say like it doesn't have to look like this radio wants it to look like that because they wanted under four minutes the church who cares if it's if it's three verses and then one quick tag or course it doesn't matter like I love throwing all of that out and just going Lord what are you breathing on yeah what are people responding to can they sing this can they reproduce this is it easy and does it carry revelation yeah those to me are the most important things and I love poetry like like Ryan reference John Mark song it's powerful it's ridiculously powerful like it's really gorgeous and whether you're a sloppy wet kiss or non-fascine kiss like who cares yeah I'm all for sloppy what it was for seeing you know it's like I just hate rules so much I love the ask that question off the top because I remember looking at reckless love as an example and thinking like the verse is kind of tough to catch like I sing it weird I hold notes out too long like for some reason it just feels right to me and then someone else leaves it and I'm like you're not singing that right but who freaking cares because they reproduced it and the congregation sang with them it was like I don't care singing however you want just don't replace reckless with perfect like it doesn't make sense yes people thought it was a 442 I remember thinking like melodically some of it doesn't make sense the meter's kind of a little weird but it broke a lot of rules and then it also was like very widely sung song and the same thing with how we love same thing hundred billion surrounded yes so I hundred billion times oh my god not quite as popular in the church because it's so wordy I think people are intimidated by it God knows I am I haven't let it once tell Ben great job but it's like songs like that that break rules I think we're in the time and space of a generation that needs that and that's just my opinion you know Tomlin might tell you something different and that's just because his personality is different than mine and probably all three of ours but break the rules break the molds who cares just ask God what he's breathing on and do that in your church and if it works don't apologize for it you know who cares I think those are those are beautiful thoughts and beautiful questions that we should be wrestling with those are the philosophical questions that I love not like well how do I write a good song you know that's a big question I really love that next Sarah whoever he feels right hi right here in Richland so I can probably speak for a lot of people in here since creative people tend to be slightly ADD I sometimes find it difficult I'll get it I'll get a lyric in my head I'll get a phrase and then I won't have music to go in or I'll get us I'll get a melody in my head and then I'll forget the words I just had so from your perspective what what have you found is the easiest way to jump into a song is it getting the piano line the chord structures the lyrics yeah what is work the best for developing a plan of attack for really nailing something down great question I think all three of you probably have vastly different answers yeah for me it almost starts it almost always starts with either just a concept maybe two lines like you know one lyric or it's just a melodic idea and I don't there's nothing else to it you know and a lot of times I'll just sing it into my voice memos whether it's one line or one melodic hook or whatever and then the rest of it is honestly usually just hard work like just working my butt off to finish it and making sure that I have time on my calendar where I know I'm sitting down to write and finish you know like Tuesday at whatever time I know that I've got two hours blocked out to finish that song but I think for all three of us we're all gonna have a different answer for that again for me it's usually it's it's just conceptual it's like I have this idea about the atonement or this idea whatever it is or just a quick melodic idea that comes to me and I'll sing it into my phone and then maybe I'll get an idea later but you know again these guys are gonna have different thoughts on that but it's just making sure to put in the due diligence afterward to finish it and I remember Brian always says songwriting is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration and I think that's true man like you get that one line or that one idea you're like oh my gosh this is gonna freaking rule and then you go to finish and you're like I hate myself and I never want to do this again and it's just hard work man and it's it's diligence it's carving out time and being faithful at that time not just being like oh well I know Tuesday at 2 p.m. normally my writing time but I just feel like eating like 10 donuts today instead sometimes we did but it's it's being faithful to actually stick with what you carved out and I think the Lord does honor that yeah there's something special about that you know or he's like yeah you're actually putting in the time and the energy and there are there there are gonna be songs that just like drop into your spirit it's like oh my gosh it's done but for the most part it's gonna be this could be some work that's really good I know I know for me just when you were talking about even writing lyrics and music and you know which comes first and how does that process work for me because I am definitely very forgetful and all of that stuff great basically anything that would make it hard so I what I like to do is I have purposefully set up like instrument stations pretty much everywhere I inhabit so in my house I have a little piano set up I have a guitar there and we have in the studio here there's options everywhere so like I try and make it so anytime the inspiration strikes that I have an ability to get to it as quick as I can and yeah and when I used to have a studio a home studio I would have Pro Tools sessions that were just designed for like create so I doubt you're trying to get in I had like sessions and stuff you know and you can do this even if you don't have a home studio but I would have little creative Pro Tools sessions or logic or garage band or whatever you use where I could just open something up and I could start going in on sounds or I could record easily and that stuff is really helpful too but I think one thing that pretty much everybody I know the rights does is they just go crazy with the voice memos pretty much everyone I know the rights does that because it's so I mean it's such an easy way and a lot of the times we put a lot of rules on what we have to do with that like well I'm not gonna do a voice memo unless like I have this whole thing but totally a lot of the times I'll just like I've been in the prayer room you know over here in the upper room and and God was gonna hit something or someone will even will sing a melody and I'm like oh that's a really cool melody and I will just get my little phone out and I'll be like and then like and I listen to it later and it's like terrible but like the point isn't to have a recording like an awesome recording to show people the point is so that I can hear it again so that when it is time for me to go back later and and work on it I can so there's tons of times where I'll just set my phone on the piano and I'll just play a little melody line or I'll play a chord progression and hum or whatever and you know that's like that's huge that stuff because if you don't record it it's gone forever I heard for Jeremy Riddle say like if I don't at least if I save it voice memos that has like a slight chance of like seeing the light of day like again because if you don't save it somewhere even just writing it down like is not enough like it's more like you think like you're like you have this amazing melody that makes the word Jesus I love you or something something amazing you're like oh I would never forget that like that makes the phrase Jesus I love you sound totally different and it means so much more now and then like you come back later you're like oh my gosh all it is is Jesus I love you so you gotta you gotta get the you know the melody down if you can and another thing I would say just in terms of you know which is first is a musical or is it is a lyrics if you are just a lyricist and you just do melodies and lyrics having a team around you is so awesome I I know that for a lot of like pop music especially nowadays that there's people that they just they work with their this specific team and they just they've come kind of to grips with their their shortcomings and their insecurities and areas that maybe they're not great at and there's not a mindset always I have to do every single last part of this or else it's not you know real it's not genuine there's there's something beautiful about joining with people and you know this guy's good at this guy's this guy's good at this and they help me they make me better so yeah I have some people that are like that for sure like I feel that way about Anna Asbury she she makes me feel when I'm writing like I can go a little further and then there's some people that I that I write whatever in the way that I'm like I don't know I think it's very good it's a condo thanks I think everyone it goes back to it anymore at least that last night just kind of figured out how I made you and like what how you operate optimum you know your optimum way but I've had both sometimes I get the melody first and sometimes I get the lyric but I think a team having people that you correct with is like crucial just makes it so much honestly it makes it so much more enjoyable and I guess it can be unenjoyable and sorry but it actually when I when I've done it and I go into this time especially if I go to those times with open hands like I've had times I had that line where I thought it's like my juice I love you and it's like the perfect melody and they're like I thought it was two things could be separated and they were like actually I like the melody but can we drop the lyric I'm like but every time I've done that actually I've ended up liking or loving the song more than it was before because actually it takes anyone just takes his own form and actually in some ways does go further than you can take it yourself because you're it's not just something you created actually brought the team of people together and essentially humble yourselves to work together then make it make it beautiful and so every time I've done that it's actually been really really fruitful sometimes it doesn't work for the people I guess next question at one point do you guys bring in co-writers do you try to get like some structure to this song and then have them edit it and be like that sucks this is really good or do you just come with the melody that you have in the lyrics that you have like a chorus or something like that and say hey can you build on this how does that look yeah what a great speaking voice yeah that was incredible how to gravel Orlando Florida yeah yeah okay I know and oh yes okay okay there's some people that just sound like they're speaking voice sounds like they can sing yeah like when I hear you talk I'm like I bet she was good Joe Joe Ritter and it's like that his voice is so low and he does have good voice yeah oh I can speak to this yeah with yeah with the co-writing thing I think there's a couple different ways I think yeah I think that coming in when you're writing with someone it's usually pretty good to have some stuff ready sections courses ideas but on the flip side of that there are totally times where you can just get with someone in the vibes are right and you can just create that thin air you know and so there's there's seriously both but I would say with the co-writing thing I would probably not go into that with not having anything to work on because there have been times when I've done that where I've been like yeah we'll just you know what kind of right I'll see what happens and God's gonna breathe on it and then you just don't go with anything and it's like the other person so I'm not really having either and then you kind of start farting around trying to write melodies and lyrics and things like that and then at the end of it it's it's kind of like oh man we kind of just wasted a lot of time so there are both but the other side of what you said is you know do you need to come in with like a full structure and then bring someone in to pick it apart I think most of the time when I've co-written it's when I have a theme like a great chorus or verse or something some DNA of the song yeah it's just kind of it's working even if it's just like I don't know what it's gonna be if it's gonna be a bridge or a pre-chorus but it's got this theme it's got this melody and it's it's kind of saying this thing and I bring someone in to help hey do you want to help me see this through that's usually how how I've seen it that's good yeah just to play devil's advocate a little bit I love trying to get all I can done before I bring anybody in because to me I do value co-writing I think it's beautiful I think the Lord loves family he loves cohesion he loves community he loves all those things however sometimes the thing that you're writing about is only endemic or specific to you yeah and it might be a specific experience that you have that someone else might not be able to fully relate with and for you to get that on paper or you know obviously I mean that figuratively you know for you to get that out in some way before you call the SOS for someone else to come in and save you it's really valuable because for me I want to get as much as I can out and then what I feel like I can't do anymore on a song that's when I'll bring someone else in usually unless it's a specific co-write where you know that you're publishing person is like I want to get you together with this person and you're like okay cool that's good you know that happens sometimes but I think for the most part it's me trying to get my own process out onto paper for someone else to experience and a lot of times it it's gonna be strong language but it cheapens the experience that I'm trying to convey to the listener to bring in moose or whoever who's not actually familiar with what happened in my life or the revelation that I'm specifically singing or speaking about when he comes in all of a sudden it's not as pure quote but again that's strong language but you get what I'm saying I won't actually ask for help until I'm stuck like stuck stuck and I've worked on a song for like two years and then find I was like okay I can't get any further like I'm calling in the troops like with actually with that song that we did last night that song Egypt you stepped in my Egypt that song came about two years ago and it was this beautiful kind of expressive just worshipful time where actually our pastor Lee who spoke last night he came up and he was referencing kind of a time in our lives and cable and Rachel's lives and he was talking about basically how he did our own personal exodus he stepped into our Egypt and he's kind of screamed that phrase he's like you stepped into our Egypt you blah blah blah you you know you took off the chains mobile I was like oh my gosh like that's it so I took that phrase started working on it working on it working on it had a few ideas got as far as I possibly could and literally waited like a year and a half to bring anyone else in and then I just started calling everyone that I knew who was awesome which is like dude I need your help like I can't get any further on this song and then thankfully a lot of them helped you know and it's landed where it's at I don't think it's fully there or landed but I think it's pretty solid right now but I love just pushing the envelope and getting as much out as you possibly can before calling in the troops and again that's personal for me a lot of people are like well I prefer co-writing because you know it just works better for me I prefer to write alone because it just works better for me that's just how I am and maybe that's because I'm a terrible person and I don't like community I'm just selfish and I also want all the money and like you know I think it's just how I operate I feel that the lyrics are pure when they come from here and not here that's just me if it's a corporate song talk about holy holy holy you're worthy we can all relate to that right like we all know God is holy God is incredible he's worthy blessing on her glory power everything that's in Scripture we all know that but there are some songs that are so deeply personal like I imagine John Mark trying to you know bring how he loves to some random dude that his publishing wanted him to hook up with I don't imagine it would have been the same song I imagine you know some of the lyrics may have gotten trampled on just a touch to sort of land at something that was commercially acceptable and for me I want it to be as pure as humanly possible with relation to what I'm actually experiencing and that doesn't mean that co-writing is bad because I love what John's saying you know co-writing is gorgeous and there's something to unity but there's also something to get in your experience processed in your own mind and your own heart with God and sort of getting out in a way that's actually accessible to people there's something really sweet about that so you're saying you both absolutely yeah I can't see you oh there you are I got you my name is Dean I'm right here in portage nice Dean radio portage yeah anyway as you can see from the gray hair on my head I'm a little older than a lot of people here but I'm just wondering in terms of some of the previous artists that how much do you guys listen to them like Randy Stoneville Bill KV Michael Carr Petra you know I've been around a while like messages like our messages just as important as worship melodies and your songs like some of these get like well like rich moments like a lot of great stuff you wrote do you want to put forth the message and well just basically you want to put forth the message along your song but also how much do you go back to the roots of some of those musicians thank you I don't think we any of us when you be in this room it wasn't for some of those guys yeah I mean Kevin Prost and then I go on and like Keith Green but I still some of those guys yeah yeah I don't think we can stop listening I have a line six deal for delay pedal signed by Phil KV so that's a great question man I mean I think all of us have been influenced by many of those different artists and writers that you named off Michael Card his voice is kind of weird but I really love a lot of his songs my wife like adores Michael Card rich Mullins massive huge influence in my life I think I referenced him probably every teaching that I've ever done that I've ever taught ever he's massively inspirational to me I mean even reckless love he was using that word far before I was him and his boy Brennan Manning like that was that was kind of their their deal and I just sort of ripped it off and then you know capitalized on it yeah I'm saying I think those guys that came before us are brilliant and to speak to your messaging question that is all I care about I don't care about a good song I don't care about a good melody I don't care about a great lyric I care about a message I care about something that's gonna change people I think I care about something that's gonna shift again the idea of Jesus to an entire generation that's all I'm thinking of in music and for me it's very difficult to settle and if I don't think that the song is going to change someone's mind about God or direct them in a in a way that they've not experienced before I'll usually just trash the idea or the song because I feel like the mandate on my life and hopefully this this house's life is again to give new language and new ideas to who God is the messaging aspect is everything that's all we care about to show people who God is that that he's maybe different than we've experienced before and that's a lot of what Rich was about and I love him he if you guys know his story like he had a couple really massive songs awesome God was a freaking massive song in fact I love rich for it because he started opening his sets with awesome God because he just wanted to get out of the way but he he lived off what was an average man's salary he submitted all of his royalties all of his money all of his income to his church and his board of basically elders and said I don't want you to give me any more than a blue-collar worker in America makes and he goes and I never want to know how much I would have made I simply want you to give me whatever the mean salary for whatever year it was and I'll live on that and that's all we care about and he he poured out to the indigenous people of you know Nevada and all these places Native Americans and he taught them how to how to sing and how to worship how to play their instruments and that part to me is absolutely beautiful that's the stuff that I about is loving people who are unlovable or unworthy of love those those are the messages and the things that we're about so I'm hugely inspired by many of those guys and end of don't forget him and Michael Tubbs the man like he is incredible and I think those guys paved so much of the way for us in worship music even we're kind of walking in what they've cleared out for us I probably have done for one more yeah I guys don't know I'm originally from Sturgis, Michigan like 40 minutes down but I actually go to a Bible school Rochester nice I was that cancelling he's my head pastor all right so as a young worship leader and just a writer I always think like how can I impact Christians around me but also my friends who are in the secular world may not be walking with God how can I still make an impact and always that that question is always on my how do I balance you know seeking God to write music but to also be relevant to the culture looking at the culture like the meat like the secular music right who they are just as a people and how can I use that to still make an impact but to still show Jesus in my life yeah we all wrestle with that that idea of relevance and how do we speak to this generation how do we speak to the loss that might not become the church on a Sunday or a Saturday night those are massive questions and for me it's I never want to compromise a message I never want to come down a message culture and also I love what he Lee talked about last night talking about you know basically so much of Christian music has become become copycat and what happens is you end up five years behind because you're trying to copy Coldplay from 2012 every Christian music has that you know and what we don't want to do is become that copycat culture I think you always want to be asking God what he's doing and saying and trying to follow that however I think a message can transcend lines that can transcend boundary lines it can transcend gender lines it can transcend race lines you know all those things I'm looking at a girl like Lauren Daigle who I don't believe she's compromised her message I think a lot of Christians would be annoyed with her and are annoyed with her however speaking from personal experience I can tell you that she's a staller girl she loves God loves Jesus and loves the Holy Spirit and is fully sold out to all of those people and ideas and her music still is crossing lines you know I heard of the other night I was watching football and her you say came on like Chicago PD like the friggin trailer or something I was like wait a sec what is this and I don't believe she had to dumb down her message I don't believe she had to compromise who she was I don't think she had to dress differently I don't think she had to act differently God just went hey I'd love to breathe on this guess why because I care about the lost sheep yeah guess why because I want to bring them home and I think he finds ways to do that and I think there are songs that have done that in the past few years as well that the Lord just said I'm gonna breathe on this and I'm gonna touch a generation because I care about a generation I'm also thinking of songs that are that are suited for TV film that might not ever say like Jesus is God in them but there's a massively beautiful message every Christian song has to have Jesus is God his divinity has to be somewhere in there he is the only way you know I'm thinking of songs that speak to human nature that speak to our innate weakness our innate broken that speak to death in a family and somehow direct people to the glory and beauty of God without saying hey a family member died look at God yeah we find ways to craft language and craft songs that can touch those type of people that you know it might end up in Chicago PD it might end up in you know I know you guys have ever heard of sleeping at last okay so some sleeping at last hours that Ryan he loves God loves the heck out of God man and writes really gorgeous songs that have the basis of the knowledge of God however don't necessarily explicitly speak to Jesus is God or whatever but they touch people in a really beautiful way and then they might get touched by that song go who the heck is this guy and they look him up and go oh my gosh he's a believer and he thinks this and this and this they start following that trail and they end up safe you know it's it's stuff like that that the Lord uses because he's so much more jealous for this generation than we are yeah I think that's sort of what we can fall back on he wants to save people so much more than we do yeah he wants those lost sheep home he wants those prodigals home that's good so much more than we do so we're just faithful to write what he gives us we're faithful to pen the things that he speaks to us and I think you know he uses those weak words he uses those broken ideas and and people end up getting saved that otherwise wouldn't have gotten saved and you didn't have to say Jesus is God Jesus is the only way to the father and that's not to say that those things aren't good to say I like saying those things my point is you don't have to say that to to have God work in that situation you know I don't know if that necessarily answered exactly but I think also thinking about like outside of because you can write worship songs but it's also songs there that are a lot of you will like some of you know might not be called to write worship songs or songs for the church some of you might be like I'm a songwriter that I just love writing great games or I love writing hip-hop or I love writing you know country music whatever whatever genre you're in and like you actually can have great impact like I'm a medic and it doesn't have to be like the most popular guy I met in New Zealand his name is strong he's actually really popular in the US but he travels with Josh Carroll's and you know plays at bars and he's like out of the way places that these people never will go to a church a lot of times but they go to the bar here and play and he's got testimonies like I'm blown away by he's like I wasn't this guy you know told me he's in a bar he sang the song and the guy was like suicidal I was gonna commit suicide that night didn't commit suicide because of a song that this guy is strong saying that gave him hope you know and so like to realize that it's not only in the church but some of the songs that you guys will be outside of the church on great impact and really it's a spirit of God on you being communicate through your music that's gonna impact people in the message that you're that you're declaring and it doesn't always have to be the divinity of Jesus or you know the atonement it could be you know just the reality of hope or the reality of of human value you know I mean like we need songs like that those are songs that are the biblical truths but something like that can impact the culture and actually shift things in a huge way even if it gets outside the church