 I would like now to proceed with the next item of business, and the next item of business is a member's business debate on motion 11518, in the name of Rhoda Grant, on Bank of Scotland ending mobile branch services across Scotland. The debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request and speak buttons. I call on Rhoda Grant to open the debate around live minutes, please, Ms Grant. Thank you, Presiding Officer. The Bank of Scotland is ending mobile banking branches to 50 locations across Scotland, and 13 of those are in the Highlands and Islands. Those mobile banks were a compromise when local branches were closed, and yet, bed 2 is closing. In Caithness, there are only seven branches left of any bank at all. Since 2015, Caithness has seen a 72 per cent decline in branches, and it is the same story elsewhere. Murray, a 66 per cent decline, Roskine, Lochaber, a 65 per cent decline in Vernes Nairn, Baden Ochanstrathsby, a 50 per cent loss. Indeed, across the whole of Scotland, there is a cut of 60 per cent of branches that have closed since 2015. When branches were closing in rural areas, we warned that mobile banking bands were not an alternative, but they were the compromise that was agreed at the time. Mobile banking branches are not great. They are only in a village for a short time, sometimes only for an hour at a time. That time is not always the right time for people who have to work, who have caring responsibilities and who are dependent on public transport, and who actually wants to queue for a mobile bank in the cold and in the wet and in the winter. There is no disability access and there is no privacy for anyone using those banks. Therefore, it is no surprise that they are only used by people who really cannot access banking facilities in any other way. Those people are now being abandoned by the bank. Lergs are losing their bank of Scotland mobile bank, and the nearest alternative branch is Galsby, which is 18 miles away. That is a 36-mile round-trip. Lergs are often seen as a hub for the smaller communities surrounding it, places such as Kinloch Berby, and they will have even further to travel. Additionally, if you are trying to get to Galsby from Lerg by public transport, that is not easy either. I believe that there are only three buses a day that run between the two, and that will be the case for many of their locations affected. Some will even have no public transport at all. Those are the banks that were bailed out during the banking crash by the very people that they are now abandoning, and yet they are reneg on their promises and pass the buck. They say that there are alternatives. They suggest online banking, but in many of those remote rural communities there is no broadband, so therefore they cannot access mobile banking. Many people are uncomfortable with using online banking because they are not confident that the banks will deal with scams. Age UK estimates that 40 per cent of over 75s do not use the internet at all, so they will not access mobile internet banking. There are also people for whom online is absolutely inaccessible, people for reasons of skills, disabilities and indeed costs who cannot access online connectivity. The Digital Poverty Alliance, a group of charities that were formed to tackle digital exclusion, estimates that as many as 11 million people in the UK struggle with technology. It also suggests using the post office, but it cannot guarantee access to the post office. Often it is very difficult to identify a business in a local community that will take on the post office. Now, with the horizon scandal, it is going to be even more difficult to identify people willing to take that on because it is poorly paid and is actually only taking on as part of increasing footfall to an existing business. They talk about link, they talk about pay point and they talk about cash back at local businesses, but those very local businesses that they are talking about cash back for are dependent on those banks to have cash to be able to pay cash back, and cash machines are even less likely to be available in those areas. That has a huge impact on rural communities. It makes doing business in rural areas more difficult. There is also a security risk because we hear that as businesses become more cash-based, they become a greater target to theft. There is anecdotal evidence that there are more break-ins in areas where banks have shut, and it means that people carry more cash because they cannot access money quickly. We all are concerned about depopulation in rural areas, and if those services are discontinued, it makes it harder to do business. That means it is harder to live in rural areas, and that adds to depopulation. I want to raise the point of America where, in the 1970s, it was recognised that banks would withdraw from poorest rural communities in a practice known as redlining, and the carter administration introduced the community act that enabled banks to be forced to pay in to supporting community co-operatives and community banking services. Do we feel that she feels that there needs to be a similar provision in this country to ensure that we maintain that footprint of banking services across the country? Yes, that is something that has to be explored because people need access to banking services and should not be left to floundered in the way that they are at the moment. I know that the financial conduct authority has been given greater powers about how to protect access to cash in the UK. I also understand that the minister was maybe to meet them to explore ways that we could tackle the issue. I hope that he will give us an update on what is possible in that area. I would also be interested in summing up if the minister would tell us what interaction he has had with the bank and if they look to change their minds or have a change of heart on that issue, because it is so important that withdrawing those services is simply unacceptable. Rather than cutting the bank services, those banks should be looking at ways of better serving their customers. The Bank of Scotland plan to withdraw those mobile banks by May this year. I urge the Bank of Scotland and the Lloyds banking group to think seriously about whether that is the way that they really serve their customers. I urge them to cancel the closures and reinstate local banking in our communities. I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and congratulate Roda Grant on securing it. I will be brief in my remarks today. I support Roda Grant's motion and completely agree with her that mobile banking services are highly important. She has highlighted very well the issues that are faced in remote and rural areas. The decision by Bank of Scotland to remove mobile banking services will leave many people in some of our most remote and rural communities, including across Dumfries and Galloway and in the South Scotland region, without direct access to banking. It is also clear that the decision will disproportionately affect elderly people and disabled people. I join Roda Grant and others in calling on the Bank of Scotland to revisit the decision and ensure that people in rural areas are not penalised. I have been contacted by many constituents who are extremely concerned about the withdrawal of the Bank of Scotland services across Dumfries and Galloway, including the mobile branch services. Constituents report that they feel that this is a betrayal of the promise that was made by Bank of Scotland when they previously closed branches, citing that mobile services would be made available. The withdrawal of services will leave many older and vulnerable people, including those who do not and cannot use online banking without access to the services. Mobile branches were introduced in many areas facing the closure of traditional bank branches and they visit fortnightly to many communities. The Bank of Scotland says that most people use the service to pay cash in or out. That shows that these mobile branches are incredibly important. The services are vital for those communities who have already suffered from many closures and we are seeing that in towns across Dumfries and Galloway. Connectivity remains a major issue for many people living in rural and remote parts of Dumfries and Galloway. For example, if a constituent in Wigtown or Whithorn is forced to travel to Newton Stewart to bank, it is an hour-round trip. If a constituent does not have a car, it is a three-hour-round trip after taking into account the infrequency of local buses. Banks must treat people in rural areas with equity of services and above all respect. As I have indicated, mobile branches were already a compromise and there are issues around their accessibility. Rhoda Grant has highlighted that as well. One example is that my mum could not manage the service on to the mobile. She could not manage the steps and she was told to bank on the pavement. That is just incredibly unbelievable when she told me that. I have written to Bank of Scotland public affairs with my constituents' concerns and I have requested an urgent meeting with them to discuss how they will support people from rural areas to access lifeline banking services. In closing, I said that this would be short for me. I support Rhoda Grant's motion and I call on Bank of Scotland to revisit the decision. I commend Rhoda Grant on securing the debate and, indeed, on her motion. Just as she outlined the concern that her constituents have, I have similar constituents across my region who have concerns about the withdrawal of mobile banking. Over the years, I have been involved in supporting a number of campaigns to try and save bank branches in different parts of my region. I can well remember standing on a very cold day in the square in Aberfeldy a number of years ago with a large group of people from the local community trying to secure the last bank branch that remained open. Unfortunately, it did not. However, at the time, the sweetener was promised—I think that Emma Harper made this point too—that if the bank, the physical bank branch closed, a mobile bank would be provided as an alternative. I think that it is very concerning that, just a few years on, we are seeing that alternative now being withdrawn and it affects a whole range of communities across mid Scotland and Fife. The list of communities currently visited by the Bank of Scotland mobile branch across Perthshire includes Aberfeldy, Bankfut, Errol, Sgoon, Methvin, Dunning, Blair Athol, Octor Ardor, Lunkarty, Cooper Angus, Murthley, Stanley, Kinross and Cullin. It is a huge chunk of the population in the area that I represent who will be affected by that. I have called on the Bank of Scotland to rethink that. It has said that it is looking to use community bankers instead as an alternative at three sites locally—Aberfeldy, Octor Ardor and Kinross. We await to hear more details as to how that will operate in practice, but I am not convinced that that will be a satisfactory alternative. The wider context for that is, of course, that we have seen changes in banking practices. That has understood that a lot of the bank branches that ended up being closed had very low footfall from individuals as people moved towards banking online, as many of us have done. Banking online is not for everyone, as Rhoda Grant has said. There are some people who are physically unable to bank online because of particular disabilities. There are other people who, for various reasons, do not trust the internet or who do not have access to the internet because of the quality of broadband locally. There are others because perhaps their elderly are vulnerable and do not have the capability to bank online. There are also small businesses still dealing in cash who want to have somewhere to physically bank that cash, and they are not able to do that online. It has been suggested by banks that close their branches that they should use post offices as an alternative. Again, we are seeing post offices disappearing in many of our towns and villages. Indeed, in Aberffeldae that I referred to, there is currently an issue about the future of the post office there because the owner wants to relocate it from its current premises to another premise that he owns in the town. It is not clear whether permission will be forthcoming from the post office for that to happen, and therefore there is a concern as to whether that facility might be lost as well. However, the key point is that we have to see access to comprehensive banking services for all sections of society, including those who struggle to use online banking. If banks are going to withdraw the services that currently exist, whether that is physical branches or whether that is mobile banking, they need to make sure that their customers have an appropriate alternative in place. That is what I am appealing for them to do, but, at the very least, they need to be rethinking the withdrawal of mobile banking. As others have said, including Rhoda Grant, who I thank for bringing this debate today, when branches started to close, we were all promised that they would keep the last branch open. When the last branch closed, we were all told that there would be at least a mobile branch. Now, for bank users and for troes, can you see and Buley, even that is going. This year, on 13 May, the mobile branch will no longer frequent for troes. On 28 May, can you see will be without banking facilities? On 29 May, Buley will be left in the lurch, too. In those rural areas, the distance to the next ATM or banking facility is often huge. Who can remember the threat to close the branch in Barra about five years ago and the local users being told that the closest ATM was about 15 miles away, ignoring the fact that it was on the other side of the water? Cash still matters. It is always going to matter. What is key here is that it matters more to those who are least able to travel to the new banking sites. That includes the small businesses who are trading hard to stay afloat. They have no time to travel up to an hour to get to their closest bank to deposit cash. It is also the same for families and households for whom every penny matters to make ends meet. We know that it has been well documented that those most affected by poverty and those most dealing with fragile finances are those that will be left behind by those decisions. Last week, I was quite struck and queuing, as I was, in a supermarket that shall remain nameless to use the automated checkout. One was free, but it was card only. Of the six people waiting, I was the only one that could use it. I join others in appealing to the banks to think again. We have the figures in front of us provided by the banking companies about how usage is declining, but I totally agree with Rhoda Grant that so often it is because it is only open an hour or it is open at inconvenient times. It is open, in other words, to suit the banks and not the users. It is no wonder that footfall declines because of that very reason. It is important to say, because I have been, where the cabinet secretary is right now, tearing my head out, at the challenge for the Scottish Government, recognising that banking is completely reserved. It is completely reserved in terms of accountability, in terms of enforcement. I suppose that that is illustrated by an example in Avymor just now, where there are plans for a banking hub to replace or to fill the gap that has been left by the closures of the RBS and the Bank of Scotland branch. They have been classified as not rural enough to secure the support and the authority to go ahead with the banking hub. That banking hub is essential. There is a post office, but anyone who knows Avymor will know how popular it is among tourists, particularly during big events. It can be the case that the post office is having to either take deposits or to provide cash in the regions of thousands of pounds. Link and Cash Access UK have assessed Avymor. I met them just before Christmas. They concluded, although they were very helpful, that, according to their rules, they could not classify Avymor as being able to open a banking hub. It might be worth reminding the chamber that the nearest bank there for is an Inverness, which is a least 45 minutes drive away with limited public transport. My one ask in this debate is that the Financial Conduct Authority is currently consulting on the rules surrounding rurality and where communities can establish banking hubs. It closes in February. That is an open invitation to everyone here to respond to that consultation. I would be grateful if the cabinet secretary could ensure that the Scottish Government responds to that consultation to appeal for further discretion to truly take into account the rurality and the distances that many of our Highland and Island communities are grappling with and to ensure that where a community comes together to open a banking hub—which, by the way, is not just a replacement for branches, it is usually a replacement for the last branch and now a replacement for the closure of banking hubs—where they want to open one, the rules allow for that, rather than standing in the way. Can I thank Rhoda Grant for bringing this important motion to Parliament? Let us be absolutely clear, mobile bank branches were introduced into rural Scotland as a SOP to cover up a deeply unpopular and widely opposed bank branch closure programme. According to the consumer organisation which the Lloyds banking group, the owners of the Bank of Scotland who are behind these proposals, have shut down over 1,000 local branches since 2015. 1,144 of them are Bank of Scotland branches. There are another 16 Bank of Scotland branches scheduled to close in 2024, so this latest sting to withdraw these mobile banking services, the length and breadth of rural Scotland, is nothing less than a double cross. It is a contract. It is the job of this Parliament to remind the people who it is that we are talking about today, so let us be absolutely clear on this too. In the banking crisis, £137 billion of public money, of our money, of the people's money was injected in the form of loans and capital to stabilise the financial system, to support the banks, including HBOS, and to bail out their shareholders. On top of this, £1 trillion of public money, of our money, of the people's money was put up to provide shareholder guarantees. On top of that, the UK Government bought shares. Over 40 per cent of shares in HBOS and Lloyds TSB to recapitalise the bank and to rescue it from total collapse. That is who we are talking about today. On top of that, as the National Audit Office has reported, even when those shares were sold back, brokered by Morgan Stanley, it was at a catastrophic loss to the public purse of between £3 billion to £6 billion, so those banks owes in every sense. That is why it is right today that this Parliament of elected representatives calls out the unelected bankers, bosses and bureaucrats, who were responsible then and who are responsible now. To the Lloyds banking group, I thank my friend for giving me that point. He is making a very powerful speech. Does he note in his point about the main banks in the UK that the five main clearing banks in Britain account for 85 per cent of all current accounts, but in contrast in Germany there are 400 spark-assing banks and more than 1,000 co-operative banks. Clearly there is an opportunity, even if the powers of financial regulation are reserved, for us to further diversify the financial footprint in Scotland for the development of credit unions and other such co-operative organisations in Scotland. Richard Leonard? I am greatly in favour of a much more diverse ownership of the banking sector as well as of the economy and that may take the form of co-operatives, of mutuals, of regional and publicly owned institutions as part of the tapestry of that, but let's deal with the situation as we find it. To the Lloyds banking group, to its chair, Sir Robin Budenburg, one of the instigators who contrived the bank bail-out scheme in 2008, to his deputy Alan Dickinson, the CEO of RBS UK when that bank collapsed and had to be nationalised, to Lord Lupton, the deputy chair of Bairing Brothers Bank when it collapsed and a former Conservative Party treasurer, and to the rest of the executive and non-executive directors who are behind the shameful proposal, we say, search your conscience. Do the right thing. Do not come down with selective amnesia. Do not abandon our oldest neighbours. Do not cut off rural Scotland. Do not desert our most vulnerable and our very poorest citizens. And let me finish with the words of Jean-Paul Marat. They echo down the centuries. Do not be taken in, he said, when they paternally pack you on the shoulder and say there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight. Because if you believe them, they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people. The people are not taken in. They are not going to be patted and patronised. They will not be robbed. They know there is a reason to fight this rigged economy and fight it, they will. And I hope that as they do that, they will get the full, they will get the unconditional backing of this Parliament. Thank you Mr Leonard. I now call Jimmy Halkill Johnson to be followed by Beatrice Wishart. Mr Halkill Johnson. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. Firstly, can I thank my Highlands and Islands colleague, Rhoda Grant, for securing this important debate. It's an issue which is impacting right across our region in Fortrose and Buley and in Cengiwsi, as Kate Forbes has mentioned. I've highlighted in the past and also in Murray. I know that my colleague Douglas Ross has secured a meeting with the banks to discuss some of the lack of services and reduction of services there. It highlights a worrying trend of vital services across a number of sectors being downgraded or withdrawn entirely from our rural communities. When I was a pupil at Orford primary school in Orkney, I remember when the bank van used to come round to the parish and visiting the school distributed its large s of branded piggy banks to excited school children. Of course it wasn't without ulterior motives and we were being encouraged to sign up and deposit our hard-earned pocket money into a supersquirrel saver or some such account. But it reflects the time when banks were very much part of our communities and working to bring services local and deliver the best services for their customers. How times have changed. I was part of an economy committee of this Parliament that in 2018 looked into the bank closures across Scotland. In the same year I spoke in a member's debate by my former colleague Dean Lockhart focusing on the removal of cash machines across Scotland including many in rural areas. More and more banking services have been removed from our local communities with constituents forced to move to the last bank of town but as again Kate Forbes highlighted that bank then goes as well. In the 2018 committee report on bank closures where banks were closing we recognised the role of mobile banking although not as a direct replacement to the local bank but we also highlighted that most people did not seem to know exactly what services the alternative to bank branches offered including post offices and mobile banking vans perhaps indicating and I quote the lack of adequate communication from banks in this regard. Can I thank my colleague for taking intervention and thank the member for raising this. I too have a similar motion in the system for debate raising the plight of bank branch closures in my own region for example in Ireland and Cumbria. Can I thank members for signing that and encouraging others to do so so we can continue this debate. On the very point that he has just mentioned my communication with many of the retail banks has been completely insufficient. Their communication and advance notice to members and the wider public has been insufficient and extremely poor and the justification given and rationale given being completely lacking. Would he agree with me that more needs to be done to ensure that all retail banks hold not just their legislative and regulatory commitments but their social and moral obligations to their communities. I thank Jamie Greene for that intervention. I absolutely would agree with that. I think it's one of my concerns about how the banks actually come to these decisions. Were they adequately promoted by the banks the services that were available and if they are being honest would banks basically prefer to have fewer branches and everyone banking via computers and smartphones so I recognise the concerns. So when banks argue that mobile services aren't being used then I would ask how those services have been advertised to bank customers and to those communities, how they have engaged with local communities to ensure the timings and the location of those visits are what those communities needed and also by withdrawing those mobile banking services. Who is it who is being impacted most? I would suggest it's largely as others have done it's largely those already with limited ability to access increasingly distant physical branches and also many who find it difficult to use online banking either because of the technical issues that have been highlighted today but also because broadband can be so unreliable in parts of my own region and what happens when there is a problem with the online banking as I've personal experience of well despite hours on the phone and online the problem was only solved with a visit to a national branch so even with mobile banking vans that face to face engagement can often be key to solving issues or at least providing some reassurance for customers that their issue is being dealt with or that for many will now be lost. Now there are of course other options my grandparents have recently started using the pop-up post office in our parish where limited banking services are available but that just highlights another issue which has always been raised today because it's all very well banks and other suggesting that services can be accessed at the post office but it seemed every week we're losing local post office services across Scotland often in some of our most remote and rural areas. Presiding officer as I've said these closures reflect a worrying trend which has seen a downgrading and removal of important rural services one which risks driving people away from our rural and remote communities and while I know that times are changing they can't change so fast that communities and particularly the most vulnerable people in those communities are left behind. Thank you Mr Halcro Johnston, I now call Beatrice Wishart to be followed by Stephen Care. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and thank you to Rhoda Grant for securing this important debate today and for highlighting the issue and I echo the calls from across the chamber for the Bank of Scotland to reconsider its decision. Communities across rural Scotland will feel a disproportionate impact and while my Shetland constituents won't be directly affected by this Bank of Scotland announcement, the decision does contribute to the ever-growing narrative that our rural and island areas are decreasing in population and thereby services can be cut under this guise yet it's precisely these communities who mostly rely on services and when the service has gone the impact has deeply felt. We've seen the closure of local bank branches due to the decline of footfall and increase of internet banking. Mobile banking was introduced decades ago in recognition of the fact that people in rural and island areas couldn't easily access physical banks in towns and cities and now we see the decline in the use of the mobile service with fewer services provided compared to branches. Perhaps timings on the mobile route are inconvenient as others have suggested and perhaps online banking has become the default way for many to manage personal finances but cutting the mobile banking service will leave those who do not or cannot bank online with the more costly and time-consuming trips to do their banking. I'd like to thank Age Scotland for highlighting their findings from the big survey 2023 which received over 4,000 responses from over 50s in Scotland. A third of older people don't use the internet for banking and only 29% of over 65s said they use the internet for banking and for many communities internet connectivity remains an issue and is not as reliable as it is for counterparts and other parts of the country. The big survey also revealed that 37% of Shetland respondents did not use the internet for banking so we know there's a greater reassurance with having an in-person service for those worried about scams or to feel more confident when dealing with personal finances. Scotland-wide 43% of older people who responded to the big survey 2023 were targeted by a scam with 39% stating the scam was something to do with accessing banking details or financial services and compared to the rest of the UK Scotland is a high rate of people who mainly use face-to-face banking services at 34% compared to an average of 27% so why should those who do not bank online be impacted like this? My Liberal Democrat MP colleague Jamie Stone has been vocal about the announced cuts to services in the far north of Scotland highlighting the impact on remote communities and older people. It's only a few years ago that the UK Government stepped in to pay out the banks. I feel that this development goes against any notion of public service especially for the elderly and for those living in the remotest areas. I couldn't agree more. Accessing a bank is a basic necessity and this should not be merely a case of putting profit before service. It seems to me that it's always the most vulnerable and those living on the peripheries that are the first to get the chop from services like these yet the impact is significant. Greater investment and service provision needs to be focused in rural and island areas to improve connectivity whether digitally or through improved transport links. So to conclude, Communities can only survive where viable services exist to support them. If we continue with the narrative that a decreased population is ripe for service cuts, we will reap what we sow and so the vicious cycle will continue on a downward spiral. It's a pleasure to follow Beatrice Wishart and I agree with her that she was absolutely right to raise the issue of the rising tide of scams that is going on in this country. I also agree with Kate Forbes when she talked about the need for the regulatory framework that we are talking about today to be revisited and for the realities of the geography of our part of the world to be a greater consideration of the SCA and indeed the banks. I also would like to congratulate Rhoda Grant for bringing this debate. It is vitally important that the issue keeps coming back to the chamber and I would like to mention one aspect of the debate specifically in my remarks and that is the freedom to access and use cash because in my view this is an essential right that people have in relation to how they manage their financial affairs. A preference to use cash doesn't make you a dinosaur nor is it only about being unable or unwilling to use technology, it's also about financial dignity, it's about choice, it's about the fundamental right that we all have to choose how we deal with our own financial affairs and I believe we have a duty to conserve the right to access and use cash and that right is under threat and these service reductions are undermining that right and the reality is that when people are as far removed in geographic terms as many of our constituents are from banking facilities they're having their choices curtailed, they're being punished by geography and whether that's because they live in a rural area and one of many Scotland's many bank branch free towns they are being severely disadvantaged and now things are just simply going to get much worse and I actually agree that Richard Leonard will have to hold to his seat to this point because I agree with what he said about the events of 2008. Many banks, the RBS, the Bank of Scotland, they were bailed out by the taxpayer and they were bailed out because of their own incompetence and ineptitude and greed and the banks have slowly but surely these very banks are doing away with their branch networks and that debt of obligation to the taxpayer has been conveniently shelved and forgotten but not by the taxpayers because rather than remember that they owe the public a debt of gratitude for keeping their institutions alive when they nearly wrecked our economy the banks across Scotland are slapping communities in the face by removing the local access to cash and it's right, Presiding Officer, to recognise that it's cheaper for the banks to operate digitally rather than physically and it's also correct to acknowledge that more and more people are using digital banking services more than ever before but that said these facts do not mean that digital banking is universal or even that it should be universal and Rhoda Grant made the excellent point about connectivity another issue that we should continue to debate and highlight in this parliament removing physical banking infrastructure is leaving people who are not skilled in technology or have no desire to become digitally engaged leaving them behind and removing physical banking infrastructure is reducing the choice that people have over their own money now some people enjoy using cash there are people of my generation and older who feel that tangible cash in the form of banknotes in their wallets or purses somehow gives them an additional level of financial freedom and financial security and the fact is that cash can be exchanged independently of the digital infrastructure which is viewed by some people with suspicion and distrust both in terms of cyber security and also in terms of privacy and that's the right of the citizen. Presiding Officer, preserving the accessibility of cash is not about resisting progress but about safeguarding inclusivity and autonomy in personal financial management cash signifies freedom of choice a lifeline for demographics for activities not best suited to digitisation banks benefited from public support in their time of crisis and yet they are withdrawal of physical banking infringes upon the very communities that supported them when they needed the public purse to bail them out and while digital banking offers efficiency it cannot replace the versatility and the dignity that cash grants to individuals upholding cash access defends the rights of the less adept with technology upholds the fundamental freedom of choice that we should all enjoy in relation to our financial matters and so in conclusion let us not forget or forsake accessibility of cash for expediency but strive for a financial dignity through the choice of cash for all of the people of Scotland. Thank you Mr Kerr and I now call on cabinet secretary Neil Gray to respond to the debate around such minutes please cabinet secretary. Thank you very much indeed Presiding Officer before I take the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Scottish Government I would like to thank Rhoda Grant for lodging today's really important motion and thank members for contributing to what has been an excellent discussion really good speeches brilliant speeches from Emma Harper, Murdo Fraser, Kate Forbes, Richard Lerard, Jamie Halcro Johnson, Beatrice Wishart, Stephen Kerr that have really contributed to a consensus being built through this parliament of the importance that banks have to local communities but also a consensus of the social responsibility that banks have to those communities too. The Scottish Government is acutely aware of the frustration the concerns felt by many about the overall decline in in-person banking services across Scotland which have now been further exacerbated by the Bank of Scotland's recent decision to withdraw their mobile banking the branch services as Rhoda Grant described which were supposed to be a compromise Murdo Fraser made this point too and I can assure you Presiding Officer Rhoda Grant that we share these concerns I do as well not least for the fact that someone is growing up in Orkney and so understanding particularly the impact this will have on the most vulnerable individuals in our rural and island communities who may struggle to access alternative services and particularly the examples as a result given by Rhoda Grant of the Lair to Galsby issues the an area I know well and so understand the challenges she articulated of the 36 mile round trip or indeed the three hour round trip example given by Emma Harper or even worse the example given by Kate Forbes about having to cross the water in order to get access to banking services demonstrates to me a lack of consideration by banking institutions of the individual needs and the geographical issues being faced by people in remote rural and island communities and their impact that has been had by these closures. The discussion we've had today is essential because the decision from Lloyd's banking group to withdraw services is not one in isolation it continues a trend witnessed across the banking sector in recent years since 2015 over 60 percent of Scottish bank branches have closed and since 2018 over 20 percent of Scottish ATMs have closed. Those numbers are consistent with other regions in the UK and would be naive to assume that more closures will not follow. This is of great concern to the Scottish Government as we fully believe that the ability to access cash is essential in our society and that in-person banking still plays an important role for our communities not least because of the points Rhoda Grant made about raising our concerns for people with digital literacy challenges, challenges for businesses to be able to bank as well and these are issues that I have raised with Lloyd's and I'll go into more detail about those points shortly and as Kate Forbes set out these closures have a clear social impact because those that are most likely to be impacted are those most likely to be in poverty so these concerns are also not solely about having access to cash and services as Emma Harper set out bank branches are often seen and this is a point that hasn't been raised thus far in the debate as anchor communities for our smaller communities it's something I recognise in the closures that have happened in my constituency or indeed in towns like Kirkwall where we've seen branches close and their closure will have wider impacts on the dynamics of our town centres and high streets particularly when that is the last bank in town and despite our concerns the Scottish government's regulatory power to act as Kate Forbes said though I suggest that she had more hair to pull out than what I do sadly are extremely limited with the financial services being wholly reserved to the UK government so I was pleased to hear Stephen Kerr's point not only about the importance of us debating this point this issue despite it being reserved but that the need for change at the UK government and FCA level is critically important recently the UK parliament legislated in this space through the financial services and markets act which passed last year and we are encouraged by the access to cash provisions contained within it most notably the act gives the financial conduct authority the regulator of financial services in the UK greater powers to protect access to cash by ensuring the provision of cash deposit and withdrawal services for personal and business current accounts across the UK the FCA launched a consultation as Kate Forbes pointed out and like her would encourage colleagues to engage with it the Scottish government certainly will be engaging with the FCA in the coming period I'm going to be meeting with the chief executive Nikhil Ratty next week to discuss this and so this debate is incredibly timely as I can raise the concerns that have been expressed very well in this debate directly with them to explore what can be done to ensure the unique banking and cash access needs of Scotland's communities people small businesses and charities are being considered including those areas that have been raised today if I've got time to present off so thank you Jamie Greene thank you and I'll try to be brief and thank you for taking my intervention I really do hope that the corporate comms and government relations people of our big banks are watching this debate and squirming in their offices because the cross party consensus is powerful on this issue and whilst the regulation of the industry is a reserved matter we as a collective parliament and I know this debate has been had in Westminster as well and MSPs from all political parties will say the same thing but in his meetings with the FCA or indeed any conversations with the UK government can he press upon the importance that it's not just the removal of physical banking but when you take away the last opportunity for banking which is mobile banking as is the substance of this debate they have absolutely squandered their obligation to communities and loss and are losing their trust and possibly even their business as a result. To give Jamie Greene that reassurance and I've obviously met with Jamie Greene previously because he has raised some of these concerns with me directly which I've then been able to use in my interactions with Lloyd's banking group on this. I have can give him and colleagues that assurance that I have made these very points. I most recently met with Lloyd's banking group in November to discuss a range of topics including branch closures and express to them my concerns and those of fellow MSPs that I have spoken with. Lloyd's banking group have said to me that they have proactively sought to engage with government when announcing closures and they provided assurances that before deciding to withdraw the Bank of Scotland mobile branch service thorough assessments were conducted across every impacted location to ensure that suitable alternatives were available for their customers but however I think the intervention that Jamie Greene hold on I'll come back to this though I note the intervention that Jamie Greene made about prior consultation and the information for constituency and regional members and encourage the banks to ensure that there is early discussion with representatives but also communities can often act at the earlier information being available to bring about such a something such as a banking hub or alternative options have we got time very brief intervention mr Leonard yeah the cabinet secretary uses the word assessment which is the one I've seen used by the Bank of Scotland Lloyd's banking group if there had been a genuine assessment wouldn't that mean that some of these mobiles would stay as well as some perhaps going whereas the whole fleet is being taken out cabinet secretary I share Richard Leonard's skepticism of that and and and did so directly in the conversations that I have had with Lloyd's banking group and as has been outlined by murder of Fraser and others the alternative options for people and businesses to be able to bank is limited and it's not like for like it's not an improvement it's a a delegation of service so that you can't access advice for instance in some cases in the post office maybe closing as well so whilst the Scottish government welcomes the engagement that we've had encouraged by some of the support that has been offered by the likes of Lloyd's banking group today's debate demonstrates that the substitutes or alternatives are less than ideal often short term and it also today provides an opportunity for colleagues to explore what more can be done collectively across the industry and government to ensure individuals and businesses can access the banking services they require in our conversations with the sector they've expressed a willingness to continue engagement with governments on branch closures and are open to hearing from elected representatives about specific concerns from their constituents and I believe there is an opportunity here for better collaboration across all parties to have constructive conversations with the sector so that we can work together to understand the impact of closures and better support the banking needs of individuals and businesses across Scotland therefore we are working to set up across party round table with the sector and we already have agreement from the Scottish financial enterprise Lloyd's banking group and the FCA to convene this and we will look to invite colleagues from all parties to participate and take forward the points raised here today so to conclude Presiding Officer to finish I would like to extend my thanks again to all members for contributing to today's important motion congratulate Rodigant again for bringing it and look forward to continue to work closely with colleagues across Parliament to ensure that the banking sector's rapid transition to digitised services leaves nobody behind and that Scottish communities businesses and individuals can continue to access to the critically important financial services that banking services that they require thank you cabinet secretary that concludes the debate and I suspend this meeting until 2 30 p.m. thank you