 Before you do it. It's a good one. Okay. I was gonna say it's all right. Go ahead. All right, and we're live here with Rolla Tomasi I'm Anthony Johnson from 21 studios in the 21 convention Rolla Tomasi is one of our upcoming speakers at the 21 convention 2017 He's actually the only speargiving speaker giving two full talks at the event Rolla, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me and thanks for having me at the show Go at the event. Hell yeah, man. Yeah. Oh I should mention to you that your main website that people can visit you at is the rational mail.com and you're on Twitter at I Think it's this rational mail right rational mail. Yeah. Yeah So yeah, I'm glad to have you on man, and not only for the podcast but for the event Super excited to have you as a speaker for supremely as Nicolette said Well, I'm kind of glad to be you know getting back to Orlando as well because I lived in Orlando for about eight and a half years Yeah, up until about 2013 and then I ended up migrating over to Nevada You know Socrates and I were joking about that a few weeks ago. We're like how the fuck I Lived here for years for college and he's lived here for 10 year more than 10 years as well 15 or something like that 20 So that we were here at the same time. I just had no idea Yeah, I know I know I have had the the blog's been active since 2011 to yeah Yeah, I left town in 2010. So I just missed that Anyway For a lot a lot of people on channel do know what red pill is but a lot of them don't Actually, thanks to Andrew the private man. He spoke recently at the convention back in October But for guys who don't know what red pill is and don't know what the rational mail is what you do Can you kind of give them a synopsis of it? I am one of the three R's of the man is fear at least that's the Moniker I've been given over the years. I have been in what is now known as red pill community Or the man is fair proper I've been writing since I mean gosh, I want to say 2001 2002 when I started I Was a moderator at the so-so I've forum Okay, and I Think the the red pill in as a community or as an online Entity really sort of gets maligned these days because everybody has decided that they want to you know claim ownership of what the red pill is And whatever that you know may be for them, whether it's their political ideology or their their social ideologies or you know Their intersexual ideologies To me the red pill is is and has always been about Intersexual dynamics and that is what I have written about Both at so-so I've and on my blog and in my books for almost 14 years now So if anybody knows who the three R's are it's myself Rollo Roche and Royce who unfortunately is not really Royce anymore. It's now it's heart east Chateau heart east and the I think the proprietorship of that blog has been Taken over by a collective of writers, but they all pretty much carry on in the same Sense when it comes to intersexual dynamics. He's gotten very very political and very social and You know in recent years, and I think that's probably a result mostly of the fact that the original blog sort of Changed hands back in 2009 so there's there's that myself and russian and Where I would say we're probably the old men of the man's fair at this at this stage But red pill to me anyways like said it is originally about intersexual dynamics it's about you know just unfiltered raw truth about Human nature mostly but you know focusing on women's nature and men's nature and how those natures sort of interact Both on this on this point. How does red pill differ from say PUA or like micktown other movements for men that are similar is Honestly, I think that the red pill sort of crosses into all of that Some people will probably disagree with me because they want to say well, you know red pill is just these guys who are just these angry dudes and they You know they they're just these angry misogynists who got burned by a woman back in the day and Now they're just venting and that is probably the furthest of the truth that I can I can think of If I were really a misogynist, I really hated women. I would not bother to do any of this or bother to To write what I what it is that I do write However, I will say that pick up artistry is mostly actually I believe where Where the red pill originated from was pick up artists in the early days. We're looking at Pick up artists like mystery To a lesser degree Neil Strauss I think Neil Strauss was really just sort of a bystander and just was the chronicler of really other Pickup artists who were part of that That collective of guys that you if you've ever read the game by Neil Strauss Those are the I want to say they're the groundbreakers. There's guys that came before them Yeah, Ross Jeffries Yeah There's guys that came before that and even before then there was still you know You could look in the back of a penthouse or a hustler magazine You'd see some ad for you know how to pick up girls, you know and how to how to interact with women and you know Long before the internet came around obviously there was game before that but just nobody called it game And it wasn't really as formalized as it's become but I would say that the Pickup artists of I'm just gonna say that the very late 90s into the early 2000s We're sort of the forerunners of the red pill and I got a got a post on my my blog called Evolution of game and I kind of go into this in a little bit more depth where the guys would go out there And they're their whole purpose was just simply to get the lay or get the number or to kiss close or to get the fuck close and Now we had the internet and we had internet forums where we could all compare notes and Now guys from all over the world could say hey I'm in you know Sao Paulo and the girls here, you know are like this and this is what I have to deal with it And somebody from Amsterdam can say hey, you know over here in Holland, you know This is what girls are are all about and some guy in Louisville, Kentucky can all get together and compare notes as to What was successful for them and what wasn't and the sort of I don't kind of dovetails into how I got involved because Back when I was I never really had a red pill moment per se. It was more of a gradual thing But I can remember reading Mystery method and I can remember reading some of the guys particularly on the so swab Forums, which has been around since, you know, 2001 I remember reading just all about game and I was happened to be in University at the time and I I had it I was minoring at that point in behavioral psychology and it was Pick up artistry and it was the right what would end up becoming the red pills What maybe to decide to double major and so I realized I was never gonna well At least I thought I was never gonna make any money off of you know having a psychology degree But I did it because I was very interested in it and I wanted to really fully understand You know psychology and how it worked, but now did your relationship with the cluster B woman influence the degree in psychology? Yeah, I was really unintentional Okay, I like said when I was when I was going to college and I was I was going through all that I was reading up on mystery method I was reading up on pickup artists and the early game guys and It just struck me that what they were saying was very much In line with what I was learning about in you know behavioral psychology and personality studies And I was really and even to this day I still see the guys who are in the pick up artist community as sort of the experimental side of red pill and I think that if there's a definition of the red pill It's the theory behind game and it's the reasons for why game works or why it doesn't work It goes a lot into a lot more than that too I mean I I don't really specifically talk about religion or politics or even you know sociology so much But if it has something to do with Intersexual dynamics and it is in a religious context or if it's in a social out, you know In a culturation context or a political context then yes, I'll talk about it then and we'll go into that because I'm of the opinion that You know all energy is sexual it's anything that we we do as as people is You know influenced by our hind brains first of all and not to say that, you know, we we can't rise above that We can obviously but I really think that a lot of people Would rather us all you know think that we're all equal and we're all these you know higher enlightened beings And we're not you know subject to our baser instincts when in fact we very much are yes This is where you get into equalism the religion of feminism on your blog, which I love. I love how you use that term so Yeah, that's actually that's a that's sort of a good segue there me as far as Equalism is a social side of things much of that is again rooted in intersexual dynamics and what I call Feminine primary social order is which is what I believe we're in right now And I realize that for people who are unfamiliar with my work or unfamiliar with the red pill or whatever It's it's a very Let's see hotly debated Topic that we live in what is a feminine primary Social order rather than the masculine or the man, you know the man's world Social lawyers saying that would be like everything is done correct today, right exactly. Yeah, it's it's Just sort of the under curter the undertone of pretty much everything that goes goes on in society Maybe we can we can talk about any particular Topic in society that has to do with women like we can talk about the pay gap or we can talk about how Hillary lost the election We can oh, yeah, we can talk about You know why it is that Why is it that it takes women less time to get over a boyfriend and get back into the sexual marketplace that it does for a guy Yeah, just there's so many different Areas Why why we are in a feminine primary social by the way, you're getting a ton of a very very over-the-top positive comments on the YouTube channel We'll get into we'll get into the questions later from there Rollo, I love you dude. Rollo Rollo's book is truly awesome. So there's lighten it up. Oh, thank you Yeah, I'll tell you another thing is that it's I've only ever done one other live appearance And that was at the man-to-man conference in Las Vegas in 2015 And I am still to this day very much humbled by you know meeting people or you know Having people email me and say hey man, you saved my life or you really turned me around or you helped me dodge a bullet Or you know, like when I've had people at the at the conference will just come up to me and say hey man As soon as my my son can read I'm giving him your book And I you know and for me, I mean my day-to-day life does not consist of you know I mean I interact with people every day, but it's it's usually like you wrap fuck son of a bitch Instead of you know this this appreciation or this love and this I would just say you know I have to take a step back and really just say hey Thanks to everybody who has benefited from you know the work that I've done You know that actually brings me. It's a good segue The next thing I want to talk to you about was your decision to speak at the 21 convention You're a blog about this just a couple days ago But it was not a quick decision for you you actually looked into it and thought about it for a few months I know I didn't you are actually directly involved in this too, so I think it's in the interest of full disclosure I had Tanner Guzy who was actually one of the he's from masculine style he was one of the speakers at the man-to-man conference and He he hit me up and said hey you need to talk to this guy Anthony And check out this 21 conference in our convention and Tanner's pretty cool man. Yeah, and so he sent me the the the links to the YouTube videos that he had done And he said you should really check this out and I was I think I was maybe just peripherally aware Of the 21 convention at that time. I think that once we had done man-to-man Conference I had a few people on my comment thread say you should check out the 21 convention so they got some good positive feedback there, and then you got a little bit of negative feedback because like for instance, I I've read you know reviews about some of the speakers at the past 21 conventions and I Sort of did a little bit of research But by that time I think it was you'd you'd called me and asked me if I if I would be interested Or you hit me up on Twitter or something and so I am I Was just kind of had some reservations about it because you'd I think you wanted me to come speak at the one It was in November or October of last October in Miami. I'm Andrews. Andrew the prevent spoke up. Yeah. Yeah, and you know I I'm good friends with Andrew. I'm good friends with Tanner And so I'm like well these guys are telling me to check it out and so I did and then I went and looked at some of the speakers and quite honestly, it just sort of Gave me the impression that a lot of the speakers there or what I call purple pill and it means that they're They're selling, you know, it seems like a sales pitch It seems like they're selling the idea of being able to get your dream girl or to to somehow achieve these, you know fantasy Blue pill idealistic goals with just being you know, it's almost like I want to say it's a new age kind of you know man up and you'll get the girl kind of thing and I've always taken guys like that to task. I've got well I've got at least two two posts on my blog one of them is even called the purple pill and I see guys like Tucker max for instance Tucker max is my my favorite punching bag because he was such a Such a great, you know, he's fun to read back when his college days And I wouldn't say he was necessarily red pill But he was somebody that people like to to follow along with and you know and then he got married and then suddenly he realized he couldn't turn a buck and Decided to go back into the you know male you know masculine improvement market and Obviously at the behest of his his wife and his now new kid, you know He had to go and find some way to do that, but he couldn't go back to the old ways and you know, he was Very apologetic for the the things he had said I mean publicly on one. I think it was a talk show that he had Just basically did this 180 and just backpedaled on everything he had done up to that point but yet he was still trying to sell the idea of being able to to achieve these blue pill goals and Do it all with, you know red pill awareness and consciousness And I've always been of the the belief that when you go red pill and when you are completely red pill aware You need to give up on those those hopes on those blue pill hopes and replace those with more realistic goals That are in accord with red pill awareness So when I see guys like Tucker or I see a guy like Neil Strauss another he is just completely Backslidden, you know from from the days where he was you know on top of his game at least but well I think that's also another another thing is that you can still be very blue pill and You can be red pill aware you can be very Very beta and still be red pill aware. You can be blue pill and you know still cling to those Clean clean to that idealism, but You and you even in the context of knowing, you know red pill awareness and knowing what you know The real truth is with you know women's nature and intersexual dynamics and everything else But it's still this clinging to a hopefulness that really needs to be abandoned This is part of what I love about your work and the perspective you write from Because I mean roller are you a single bachelor just living it up to slant pussy or do you have a family and a daughter? I have a family and a daughter and I have been married for 20 and a half years right now And I've raised a daughter from infancy to 19 years old and I have Mothers-in-law mother-in-laws and my own mother and I've got lots of other women in my life that I have to Deal with and I believe I am more effective in dealing with them because I am red pill aware I always tell guys and I'll just you know restate this for the record right now is never use my You know my marriage or my lifestyle as a model for your own I'm very I'm very cautious, and I'm very conscious. I guess of Guys trying to sell anybody a formula, and I'm not in the business of selling formulas I'm not in even in the business of making guys better guys I'm making I'm in the business of other guys You know other men making themselves better men because they have an awareness and they have you know They're they're coming into a new reality and a new really a new consciousness because What they become aware of and with you know when it comes to red pill and now it comes to intersexual dynamics They take it upon themselves and apply it to themselves. I've always said that the red pill is not one size fits all there's not some you know 12-point list of You know put 12-step list to to get from being a chump beta to being this you know uber alpha In fact, I would be a little bit I would be a little bit cautious if that was what you were you know planning to do as a guy with what I write No, my my concern my main concern has always to be as Truthful and honest and open and just even when it hurts even when it sucks even wants to kick in the teeth Just take that and use that to better your life, and I think that the real Problem that guys have is they still want to hang on to the the blue pill idealism They still want to be able to say okay Well, can I still please believe in a soulmate and one and when I just and still be red pill You know can I still and the answer is no because the reason that you even believe in a soulmate in the first place Is because you have blue pill conditioning and you still haven't unlearned that you know one of the one of the most profound things I read from you when I first find your work was you applied a sexualized or gender-fied if that's the right word Application to love you actually differentiate based on biology how women love and how men love You talk about that a little bit because I found that yeah, sure Well, and actually I'm not the first person to do the hierarchies of love, but I think I'm probably with the first one to I don't know just Come up with or you know Conceive the idea that women's concept of love is different from that of men's concept of love and a lot of this I'll I'll get into when I give my my hypergamy talk, but It's a lot of people will I have several posts that sort of outlined this and The problem I'd you know, I'd like to clear up before I even get into this is that a lot of people say well Yeah, roll it to Massey. He said that women can't love Well, no, that's not what I'm saying I mean the women are very very much capable of love and they're very much capable of be having a very deep Love for from the men who you know are the men that are in their lives and that they feel or that they perceive are you know Are worth their attention I'm worth all of that Yeah, that optimizes the right program exactly But you have to understand where women's concept of love comes from and for lack of a better term comes from a sense of optimum opportunities and What that means is that because of women's hypergamist nature because of women's Biological and psychological and neurological differences from men their concept or their approach towards love is different than that of men And what I mean by that is that as far as opportunism is concerned is that hypergamist which is Influencing every woman you talk to right now your mother and your grandmother included Are always looking for a better than Situation when it comes to men and when they are you know as young as five years old to as old as 85 years old you will see Influences of hypergamy and because of that hypergamy it is Founded on wanting a bigger and better deal and wanting the best man that they can possibly get in fact They want a better man than they actually deserve And so that's that's the opportunistic side of it Then for men again, it's my belief that men approach love from an idealistic side of things Men tend to view the world from the inside out and then women on the other hand experience the world from the outside in so it's I don't think There's a there's a I've got a post on the on my blog called idealism and The picture on that blog post will probably spell it out for you where it's got a man and a woman You're on a I believe it's a picnic bag blanket or something They're in a park and the man has a camera and the woman has a camera and the man is Taking pictures of the outside world where the woman is taking pictures of herself And so and I thought that was really poignant because that is really where where men and women Come from as far as they're differing approaches men tend to approach Life in general as what could be I also have a post and it's in one of my books called the the burden of performance and It is based on the idea that women simply are and men must become and Because men must become they have a more idealistic outlook and sometimes that gets us into trouble Sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. It's great when we want to build, you know fantastic structures and you know and improve the state of humanity and and culture and arts and science and everything else and that that's fantastic But it also gets us into trouble because we believe that women are sharing that same idealism and then women have a natural sensitivity to The knowledge I guess that that men are more idealistic and that they can use that and put that to their own Intrinsic purposes and do you think biology is at the root of this difference in the concepts? Oh, definitely definitely definitely first off because men have a Just raw, you know biology they have a more potential when it comes to strength and endurance and you know, that's based on our testosterone and Just having an outward Ideal we have to become women I mean well and then when it comes to it goes again it goes to goes back to Hypergamy and what that what I mean by that is that, you know, the reason that women are opportunistic is because they have become Evolved to you know want a better and better than deserved Mating potential provisioning potential life potential. Yeah, they literally want to date up, right? Well, yeah, that's that's just and that's that's just simply part of it. They want to live up. Okay, they want to Be able to ensure the security of themselves and to ensure the security of their kids I mean again, it goes goes right back to fundamental Evolution where you know women aren't going to be looking for a weak man They're not going to be looking for a weak breeding partner. You know, they don't want a less than Breeding situation they want to more than hypergamy does not seek its own level. Okay, so they're always looking for the bigger and the better and what that instills in women is a sense of doubt and hypergamy is very much Based on doubt. I think you've probably seen the The cartoon of the woman who's like naked and she's on the side of the bed and sleeping in the bed is Superman and Her first thought is is he the best is he really the best I can I haven't seen that actually Yeah, and that on your blog or somewhere else. No, it's you it's all over the place I'm gonna I I'm sure there's half a dozen people in the chat right now probably know exactly what I'm talking about but It it's sort of in a nutshell encapsulates this Doubt or this hypergamist doubt that women have and so even when they have the best even when they have some sort of You know something that they believe will keep them content or will will you know? The quail that hypergamist out. They're still Thinking about it. They're still saying is this the best I can do or if that guy if Superman slips up If Superman loses his job if Superman You know if he if he pushes out for something you're backs down from a challenge whatever that may be that's going to stoke that doubt and That hypergamist out is what sort of colors most of what constitutes a woman's hindbrain So when we talk about like say shit tests and things like that that is really a Subconscious manifestation of this doubt So when a woman gives you shit or she's you know, especially I I've got several posts on on shit tests But I see Shit tests coming in two varieties and one of them is an active variety and another is a passive variety and The active variety is the one you get from the girl in the bar Who's just meeting you for the first time and she's she's giving you shit to test you to see you know What your responsiveness is and what how you know what your sub communications are going to be for a certain You know certain set of you know Shit-giving criteria, I guess and then there's the passive version which is Something that married guys are probably familiar with when they get a nagging wife or they get a woman who is expressing her insecurities constantly About money about her own sick, you know her own security our kids own security And giving you know her husband or her long-term boyfriend Shit tests, but they're of a different variety. Those are the passive ones But again all of those come from that hypergamist doubt And then that doubt and just the basic biological nature of women when we're you know, we're talking about ovulatory shift and We're talking about You know how women's fundamental, you know biology they're their hormones their Just the way that their brains architecture works when it comes to The fact that you know women are better communicators or they're more sensitive I should say to communication They feel communication rather than a little bit or more empathetic, right? Yes, no Women have a woman have a I would say a more enhanced capacity for communication and then do and it's fairly well proven by just You know Brain scans and you know brain synopses tests and we can even see that they use you know social media more They they send more texts. They taught they speak more words in a day There's there's any number of Studies that pretty much indicate that women have a much higher capacity for communication and sub communications than men do Does that make them necessarily more empathetic? I think that sort of comes down to what they what they really Want to be empathetic with you know If it's a weak guy like we were just talking about if Superman loses his job She can be empathetic up to a point, but I think there's a it's a social convention. It's one that women love to constantly Stoke themselves is that women are more empathetic than men. I don't I don't believe that for a second I certainly don't believe they're more sympathetic than men and this is a really Exactly and they don't have some supernatural ability for empathy that men don't they just have a broader Capacity for communication than most men do so I think when we we talk about to this, you know the supernatural Capacity for empathy and women. I think what we're really talking about is just their their capacity to Communicate differently than men. Yeah, I want to take a step back to the what I brought up a few minutes ago About the 21 convention block post specifically There was actually one line in there that really struck stood out to me and I felt in a way kind of proud of You said that in speaking to me and confronting me about the purple pill Pass of the convention and the speakers and the issues you said you're really surprised when I was like, yeah I completely agree and I was right kind of very blunt about it or very simple about it So you talked to me a little bit about What surprised you or what went into that well? Like I said, it's like it was you were at least open to listening to what I had to say especially when it comes from you know a very Otherwise harsh Red pill background When I see a purple pill dating coaches or when I see Like we're talking about like Neil Strauss and guys like that who basically want to turn a buck off of Selling you the idealism that you're used to it's it's a law of power to appeal to other people's fantasies and to be able to sell them on an Easy quick formula to to better their lives to get the girl to get their dream girl And to live happily ever after with 2.4 kids and a dog in the yard I just first of all if you're if you are red pill aware you understand that that what I've just described there is a blue pill Idealistic goal particularly now in today's you know, Westernizing Societies that guys have been told and sold for decades now exactly so I was a little bit concerned that I would be Co-branding the rational male with something like that. I was also very It's funny because it's about the same time that I was Becoming a bit concerned about co-branding myself and the rational male with guys like are you know people at rsd? I want to I'm very conscious of You know where my you know for lack of a better term of brand I guess it's what it's become So that's just what I'm gonna call it right now. I don't see what I do as a product or anything like that I don't do this for a living and I don't I mean yeah I sell books but my primary job is working in in advertising marketing and branding I own you know my ownership stake in two liquor brands and I promote probably two dozen more So I'm I'm pretty set. I'm pretty good for me right now. So That's that's another thing. I think a lot of people misconstrued about me as they think that I'll roll it to Massey He just goes and sells books and he goes into the seminars I'm like everybody to know that this is the first and only one I'll be doing this year will be the 21 convention however after talking to you and After you explaining to me that you you even yourself were sort of having a red pill epiphany at the time and sort of having a And I know I for lack of a better term a red pill unplugging from you know, what you had been used to with your Was actually that the Nicholas cloud guy the guy that you put the video of he actually wrote a very detailed email to me after the 10 or so that and It was this very detailed and I was like alright. I'm gonna give this guy shot and then I found your work I was just blown away Well, thank you for that But then you and I sort of developed a you know, at least a talking relationship and we've been going back and forth and you were, you know open enough about your your experience with your ex-wife for however long that lasted and all of the things that went along with that and I think you even yourself were expressing that you know You had we're having more of a red pill bent to your to your thinking into the way things were I know I'm sure you probably start writing or reading my books or reading me, you know Well more actively back around. Yeah, I found your site in 2015 And I was very curious actually put you on a potential speakers list to research and then confirm or you know Say what on to do with it? So I've been aware of it for a couple years But it wasn't until 2016 in the summer that I really got into it. Well, like I said, and you know, I'm very good I'm very conscious of who I'm going to To you know pair off with But uh You know and particularly when the the past speakers were not all of them But a good majority of them were what I would consider purple pill. Yeah, and I see a lot of this co-opting of Red pill ideals to sell You know dating date coaching and stuff like that like when I look at the works of say like Mark Manson or Evan Mark Hats guys like that who are in my Honest opinion are simply pandering to their audiences and then simply using the more palatable parts of red pill awareness to You know sort of sugarcoat Their own their own perspectives or there, you know, they don't want to offend women because you know, like I said where we we end up Talking about a feminine primary social order. So anything that would be unflattering to women Is left out and anything that would possibly get guys into You know into following in line with them You know what happened liquid happened to that state senator from New Hampshire the other day, right huge I miss huge takedown of them. So those right and then and then again, that's that's sort of another whole other ball of wax to unravel right there, but I think That's you know, we we're starting to see the red pill sort of enter into the mainstream right now And when I'm when we're talking about like purple pill guys I'm I'm really saying that these guys who are just you know, cherry picking the parts of the red pill that they think will resonate with women Because they want to be the guys to tell men to man up and here's enough of the red pill to to tell you to man up But don't man up too much and don't be you know Don't don't become too aware and don't become, you know, don't don't get angry like those red pill guys are just you know Well, in your opinion, except enough of it to you know, get it down and your opinion to purple pill is very dangerous You just speak to that a little bit between. Well, I think that what what happens is and when we're talking about Purple pill life coaches for lack of a better work. We're talking about guys like that it ends up Because it is a sanitizing the red pill and I I think like when we're talking just earlier You mean you're asking what my definition of red pill was a lot of people will just simply say well You don't own the red pill and you don't own the the terminology and really it just means truth. Well, yeah, okay fine But then whose truth does it really become? I See a lot of guys in the alt-right right now who want to say I'm red pill or I'm woke, you know I'm red pill and all that is is just saying that you believe that strongly in your ideology that You accept the truth. I'm really what is the red pill? You know when Morpheus offers the red pill or the blue pill while the red pill is the truth, right? Actually, this is a really interesting topic. So right now in the internet red pill is being used for a whole bunch of different ideologies Yes, you refer to as rooted from 2002 so swab or something like that. Yeah, I can show you so swab posts and You know threat forms or is where we started using well actually we didn't even call it We didn't even call it red pill back then we called it unplugging And we use actually we actually use the term the matrix all the time without even really implying so much as the red pill and then I think probably around 2002 2003 is when people started using that term to Say that they had woken up from their blue pill Conditioning or their their feminization can do I want to talk about the blue pill. I'm really talking about our our popular conditioning for, you know feminizing men Demasculating in masculine demasculation of men and the masculination of women When we talk about egalitarian equalism when we look at just a lot of the standard tropes and and just the boilerplate that we get from from feminists a Lot of that goes back to our conditioning. We get that from a very very early age I mean right now There are certain words that little five-year-old boys aren't allowed to use on the playground They're not allowed to look at a girl, you know for any a length of time They're not allowed to be a little sexists, you know, because they are being taught in a way that that is pro-female and what I what I call feminine correct and so I mean, I can talk I can talk ears off about that for what happens is is then that Becomes the blue pill and the red pill is waking up from all of that and really seeing intersexual dynamics for what it is in terms of, you know, sociological Biological, you know evolutionary psychology things like that, and I know people have some people have a really tough time with that I happen to think that evolutionary psychology is a very primary Underpending of what the red pill really is, but you know nowadays. I'm hearing, you know People who are, you know devout Christians are saying I'm red pill because I'm Christian or I'm red pill because I'm I've even seen What some some people on the on the left and left leaning side of things saying that they're red pill because they really know the Truth and it really loses its meaning and it gets kind of watered down Well, that actually brings up the red pill documentary that had nothing to do with red pill Right, that was you want to talk about that a little bit? I think that yeah, for sure I and it's funny because like I just I just retweet or I just dug up a tweet that I had Had a prediction about the red pill documentary for whatever it's not really even a documentary so much, but It was a documentary by a film producer and director and a star of the movie Cassie Jay and what a surprise Yeah, what a surprise who is also a was who was I would presume? She probably still is but maybe not to the same extent a feminist And decided that she wanted to do an expose a or a documentary on The emmer the men's rights movement and of course the first people she sees she meets is Paulie a lemon Dean Esme and then moves on from there To guys who I used to have I used to have a lot of respect for a doctor Warren Farrell In fact, if I it was anybody who kind of woke me up It was him back in the early 90s, but even this guy is very much Attached to egalitarian equalism very much attached to being you know having men become more perfected feminists But from the sense that they believe that there can be a true parody or a true Equality amongst the genders or amongst the sexes. I'm not of that opinion I'm of the opinion that there is complementarity between the genders, but there is no Equality and equal parody between the genders, but anyway, so they took it upon themselves to title the the documentary the red pill and Naturally, what do you think the purpose behind that was well, I honestly I think it's a honestly I think it's a co-opting of what the red pill was initially and it goes to love it. Oh, definitely I think I definitely think so because Paulie a lemon the guys that a voice for men have completely just Disowned the red pill and completely As far as you know, TRP and as far as the the side of things that I I come from They they want to villainize you know villainize us. They want to demonize us. They want to You know say that you know if there's any kind of problem with with men in the world And it's it can be related back to the red pill. They're had more than happy for for the TRP Reddit to take the take the fall for it However, they're more than ready to Capitalize on the popularity of the idea or the name or the term red pill. So As so, you know, as long as red pill means what it is that they want it to mean then it's okay But as soon as the red pill gets some bad press like it is right now and that guy you were talking about in New Hampshire and What is the estate senator and our congressman or something like that? I think it was a state senator congressman. Yeah, it's supposed to be some very active member on on the sub well, suddenly they they never we you know, we never knew ye and I Think it's interesting also because you know when I look at Cassie J She fits the profile for all the men's rights movement guys who just want to have you know feminists go and fight their battle for them and probably necessarily so because in Today's society we have to have women speak for men because they're the only ones whose voices we actually take seriously right now Anything that Cassie J would have been done had her name been Carl J Would not have you know wouldn't have got out the front door But because she's a woman she's taken seriously and now, you know granted She's having a hard time with the free speech and getting her movies shown But the the fact the matter is is that the documentary had almost nothing to do with the men's rights movement and everything to do about her everything to do about her personal journey of self-discovery and It was exactly what I predicted in August of 2015 I said this is gonna end up being all about her and sure as shit it was and Again, the reason I know that is because I've seen it happen before I've seen that Constantly happen before and it also fills fits in with what I you know refer to as women's solipsistic nature Well, the good news is I'm sure that's the last time that will ever happen. So yeah Yeah, well, I think it's funny is because I I understand that the next time that we have some sort of Mass shooting or we have some sort of violence or we have another Elliot Rogers Elliot Rogers. Yeah, we have another incident like that I will guarantee you the first people to throw the red pill under the bus will be the men's rights Yeah You know, this actually brings me this is an interesting topic that just kind of came up to me as you were talking What do you think about? Women like Christina Hoff summers and Helen Smith Helen Smith's author of men on strike in particular. Yeah I know I'm aware of both of them actually Helen. I've has hit me up a couple of times But Christina Hoff summers is interesting because she ended up where she started out I should say as being a Darling of the guys on avoid at a horse for men. She was really When she was carrying the water for Paul Elam, he couldn't speak highly enough of her But if you go and you look through his videos right now, he's got a video titled Christina Hoff summers as a phony or a fake or something With the conclusion that she was gynocentric and then he went through a couple of video clips, right? What kind of sent gynocentric in exactly the same way as I described that she was boy back when they were relying on feminists that got a I forget who is a driver Seuss who's the the Moderator for the comments at a voice for men when you have a feminist woman or an anti-feminist feminist and I would point out that any anti-feminists right now are really just feminists, but they just don't like the fuchsia hair underarm Stinky liberal feminists. They they're just as they're just as feminist as any other feminists. It's just that they You know go to a different church and they drink a different You know kind of beer, you know But I think Christina Hoff summers. She's I mean she's great I mean she's done the stuff that she did with them, you know with Milo and I thought, you know When it comes out there and she's speaking the truth, that's fantastic, but she's also on on record for getting behind the I think the the so-called assault behind What's your name the the the journalists who got nudged or something at a Trump con conference? Recently Paul just Watson recently to noted that she she came out against Marine Le Pen in France Who's now in the run-up to the French election and I didn't I didn't think she would do that So that was well, and that's that's you know, whether it's for steam or it's anybody else And I know people have brought up girl whites from girl rights. What I forget her her I'm not familiar with her. Yeah girl whites. What is another? Well, at least she was I'm not sure she still is affiliated with the boys for men, but they're they were their darlings for a while and I Expressed the opinion that no matter what a woman professes that she is she still will put the sisterhood before everything else So you can take Like the thing I said before is you can take Gretchen Carlson And you can take Rachel Maddow and you can put them on the same show together And they will fight like cats and dogs when it comes to ideology and politics and everything else But then you put them on together and you start making Making them aware of red pill awareness or any sort of red pill topic and anything. That's even remotely Marginally unflattering towards women and they will come together. They'll band together. They'll drop their differences and they will fight you tooth and nail for you know against everything that you're saying because no matter what the religious conviction is no matter what the Political ideology is it's always going to be the sisterhood uber Alice the young Tommy learns a good example This tier it exactly time. Yeah, and then you know, she was she was everybody's sweetheart once you know because she was She's a good-looking girl You know she was speaking the right language until she said one thing that wasn't right and she said that she you know She was pro-choice. Well, of course, she's pro-choice that every woman You know is pretty much pro-choice in the sense that they want to be able to have the choice to choose who the father of their child is going to be and I've said this on several occasions that abortion is really the final word in hyper again Yeah, and that in that really legalized abortion is safe legal abortion and the right for a woman to choose that isn't so much a Political or ideological choice. It is a choice based in hyper candy And once again that brings us full circle as to you know, what is a red pill belt? Well, we can go all the way back to you how women's biology and their sexual strategy, which is hyper candy Affects everything it affects our legislation. It affects our psychology effects our schools and our education And that's once again why I say that we live in a feminine centric social That's actually a really good segue to one of the topics. I wanted to talk to you about later But we'll get into it now. Okay, you wrote a post maybe a month ago a month and a half called the first female president So I wanted to talk a little bit about that What that post is about and then what do you think? 48 years of Trump. What kind of effects you think will have on the United States culturally? Well, the first female president was a post that I wrote and actually I Reposted it on medium just recently as well But I Decided that I was going to lay off politics as much as I possibly could although I did talk with Christian before but I was gonna lay off politics as much as I could to see You know what the how all the cards would shake out for the election However back in again back in the late 20 late 2015 early 2016 I made a tweet saying that this election will be based primarily on rental principles that guys in the Manisphere have been talking about for you know decades now and What I meant by that is that the the personality that is Donald Trump and the personality that is Hillary Clinton are both brands and they're brands that we've been very conscious of for a long time But they're more than just that they are the effigies and the the embodiments of Masculinity and the reaction to that I should I won't say femininity because there's nothing feminine about Hillary Clinton But there is a but the it's the he versus she and it's the struggle once again between whose Vision is going to be the one that sets the course for the country Okay, whose vision is going is it going to be a he vision or is it going to be a she vision? Yeah, and we saw this come out during the During the the election, but we're also seeing more of it sort of echo right now in that The idea is that the future is female Now that to me is not anything has nothing to do with equality and has nothing to do with egalitarianism It has everything to do with females. Yeah, it's female supremacism. Yeah It's bullface too right out in the oven and and so when we were going through that cycle And this is what I wrote the post about was that it was less about who they were as people and more about who they represented or the The personifications of he and she and by the way guys for those listening He's referring to a short thing video that Hillary Clinton produced a few months ago Yeah, yeah, it was the future is female. In fact, we're I'm seeing that a lot in the hemisphere, you know Where it's the the the future is female and if you go and you look at What happened with the women's March back in January or you see the one that happened in March for? The women's Day March or even the just recently on the Earth Day It was the March for science was there's really the March for women And you look at that and you see just how Upset these women were and just how upset they are that there's not the first female president And Hillary was was the embodiment of what they expected they expected her to win They expected the first female president. They didn't care, you know, who it was They didn't care that it was that, you know, maybe she always has some kind of Parkinson's disease They didn't care anything about any of that. They just wanted the first you know Clearly she had a 98% chance of winning. So yeah That's that is the that is the degree of certainty. They were that she was that she was going to win and what was it like a When when she was enduring her campaign when she was trying to appeal to male voters She comes out with I'm with her or he for she or Was the other one He for she was a whole he for she was I'm with I'm with her and we're still seeing that right now I'm with her, but we're gonna read we're gonna reheat that and pretend like we're talking about Mother Earth I'm with her, but it's not it's about you know Suddenly all of the the veneer and all the pretense get stripped away because Donald Trump won and she lost In fact, they were that was that was it the During the campaign they were saying it's her turn It's her turn and they didn't mean Hillary Clinton's turn. They meant it's her turn as it's the woman It's the female. It's the feminine imperatives turn to run the country and that's what they sincerely believe that's what they still believe right now and Again that is that also goes back once again all the way back to you know, who is going to set the the course for You know for a feminine primary society and that's really what they're that's what their Nervousness and their insecurity and they're they're just they're just blanket fear is is that they won't have a say that they I mean, it's impossible for them not to but they the fear is that That Donald Trump the he is going to change everything for the she hmm I Wanted to take a step back now and go back to the 21 convention So talking to you through Twitter. You actually brought us nothing something that I thought was pretty cool You said that basically I'd built like a small red pill summit Inside of and I didn't set out to do that. I set out to build the 10-year anniversary event for my company But inside that we now have I think like seven or eight talks on the red from Red Pill speakers Well, I think it's I think it's really great That we were able to get all of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse together myself and Christian and Tanner and Goldman And I know I know what those guys are gonna do. But yeah, and then to get Atlanta was just I don't know that was just a Trick I don't know how you got that but that was I was awesome and edit I think is probably one of the most underrated speaker I don't really think he identifies himself as being like Red Pill, but everything he talks about pretty much is yeah, and He's just very he's very good from the from the perspective of you know bettering your life and being a more positively masculine man and That was really he seems honest. He seems so genuine and that's why I wanted to get on on Mark Baxter's show with him when we did back in I think it was in February and And you know just talking with him and just I'm a big fan as I won't hide it And then I you know just getting Christian. I know what Christian's gonna do Christians is pick up Christian his game whether that's what he gets into at this conference or not. I know I Know where Christian is. I know what he does. Yeah On entrepreneurship. Yeah, we'll see there you go and and he's a good dude to talk to about it, too And then there's a Goldman and Goldman is the he's the Indiana Jones of the Red Pill He's the guy that goes to all these all these places and the guy just lives for adventure. He lives for experience and he just You know, he'll go out just if you could sit down with I've had the pleasure of doing this but you can sit down with with Goldman and you just ask him and talk to him about like, you know, his His past, you know experiences and the things that he's done. I mean, there's some of the shit I would not consider doing but like it's cool to hear about it. Yeah, and he's he's very very game savvy very red pill savvy and Take something and goes with it. He's like In a sense, I he's not migtail But he's like sort of lives the life that I think some migtails would like to live like on their motorcycle and drive across the country and and Instead he goes and drives his car across the country and goes and meets people and when I met him back in Gosh, I guess it would have been 2015 He just happened to be passing through Reno, Nevada and I was here and I said, hey Let's get together and he had gone around like basically it did the perimeter of the United States and driving And you know car camping and you know, he didn't have a lot of money but he just goes out there and he does it and He had talked to Jack Donovan just before he talked to me. Yeah Yeah, and he did just this real it's on YouTube and it's on his YouTube channel But he did a just a quick hit interview of me. We just like sat down by this This aqueduct or this you know this little drainage ditch We just started talking and bullshitting and it was was really really good But yeah, Goldman's great Tanner of course is fantastic to you already know about Tanner So his you know mask on style and everything and I think he brought up quite a bit of Idea he gave me ideas. He gave me ideas for posts when I when I listen to his His presentation at the man-to-man conference because he was talking about how And you already know this but just how you how a man presents himself in the communications that he presents when he dresses a certain way Like you I used to Not care about the way I dress until I started getting into Tanner's work And the reason was I was able to get away with it By holding frame holding court My dress didn't seem to matter until I got older instead of realizing this was kind of a mistake Well, he he sort of explained some things to me that I didn't really he gave me some dots to connect and Like in my line of work I like right now I'll be sitting at home and jeans and a t-shirt and just being comfortable like what when I have to go out and do a Liquor promo or something like that or I've got to meet with clients or I got to meet with Distributors or I got to meet with you know people who I'm doing you know brand work with I'm gonna wear and put on a Different face and put on a different persona with all these with everywhere that I'm gonna go and I think you know Most people just do that anyways We didn't even think twice about it and most guys will say well, I'm not I don't dress for anybody And it's like no you go to work In a different way that you do it, you know if you wear a uniform you go to you dress for a certain way But I think what was fascinating to me was he sort of validated quite a bit of pickup artists ideas in the sense that What you wear is part of your sub communications, you know You can you can dress in a clown suit and still still you know go out and run game but you're gonna be fighting against the The deficit of wearing a clown suit or you better have a damn good reason to be wearing the clown suit You know and that better be a point of conversation for you Because you're communicating something with that I really thought that that that sort of opened up some some ideas for me, especially when you talk about looks and stuff like that but I just think that the lineup as far as the Redhill Summit being what it is I'm glad that that happened and I'm glad it's I think you'll agree that it kind of happened a little bit more organically than Maybe you thought it would And maybe this is maybe this is a question for you, you know getting back to what we're talking about like I had some purple pill reservations It seems like you yourself have sort of taken a hard red pill turn hard red turn Because of your your interaction with your ex-wife and all that And it seems like didn't have the same people interested in doing the car Yeah, people say that and it definitely influenced it without a doubt But your work honestly one of the biggest things that helped me do is connect the dots with all of my experience of women Not just Medusa. I went out in my college years and I approached like 6,000 times over 6,000 women And so your work is making me look back at all that over the summer and you know the winter this past year And then I have sisters. I have a mother. I have aunts. I have cousins You know different friends friends of friends girlfriends of friends So it's like oh, you made me your work causing me to just connect all the dots between all these different experiences Medusa's, you know among those as well and a big part of it, but it's also the other half of it thousands and thousands of women that I've gone out met and slept with and all that thousands I've slept with But you've met and you've interacted with it. I think that what at least I mean It's like gloss myself too much. I think of what do I what I see it? You can't unsee it Yeah, exactly. I think what what I write and what I think the intersexual, you know side of the red pill is really about is Understanding the natures of women and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's just you know I mean, it's great when you can use it, you know in terms of game and a woman that you you know want to become intimate with That's that's the primary interest of it. But I've used game on female bosses. I have used red pill awareness I'm getting out of a traffic ticket, you know I've used it in so many different ways And I think that's really important for guys to know that it's not just about And not just about game. It's also about just you know living your life. Yeah, it's every part of life I think that's we when you mentioned a mixtape guys That's one of the reasons you want to help them is because like they can't get away from it No matter how much you try you're still going to be involved with the You're still gonna be dealing with you're still gonna be dealing with your mom or your sister or a female co-worker and things like that And there's still parts of the run. I Always say this about the mixtape guys I really think that they are far more hopeful than like say the guys in the MRM Because I think that most I would say that even red pill guys are technically men going their own way Because once you become red pill aware and you see You know all the things going on around you When it with regard to women when you when you put on the red pill lens as I like to call it You see see it in the media and you see it in politics and you see it in religion You see all over the place once you do that you become Red pill where you're gonna live your life differently and you're gonna go in a different way than you were when you were blue pill So in a sense if you're red pill, you're really going your own way Where I think the the guys in mixtape the more hardliners make a mistake is that they just go too far and They say well, you know what I'm never going to they get caught in the anger phase where they get caught in that The idea that they're never going to measure up or they're never going to you know Because it's so hard or the requirements to meet and satisfy women are so hard and the risks are too high And I just I just don't want to do it So I'm just gonna cut myself off and I'm never gonna get back to the game And it's just easier if I you know live for me and I put myself together And I'm the best person I can be and go ride my motorcycle across the country Yeah But I do think that they are far more hopeful than in fact if I if I get any migtails if I'm talking to any migtails right now It's like I get it. I really do Some guys that have mentioned their migtail I definitely understand that and I completely sympathize with that point of that perspective It's just that I think that Once you become red pill savvy and once you become more aware of you know How to interact with women from a red pill perspective and in a red pill context I think that it becomes easier. I think that you you don't have the expectations You lose the stupid blue pill expectations of women and you learn how to be able to interact with them So one more point on the convention that I had written down that I wanted to talk just a bit about When I started getting red pill speakers on particularly you but other guys as well With the exclusion of Tanner everyone at the convention last year loved Tanner and Andrew much the same But beyond those two who already been at the convention. It's got me a lot of heat a lot of internal discussion between me and the speakers so I've talked to you about that and What was your response to that or do you want to talk about that? Well, do you mean in terms of like having me there or having more red pill guys there and how that's affecting the Old guard or the old the guys were there before exactly it's causing a lot of friction and I'm fine with that But it's I think that that needs to that sort of needs to Be hashed out. I'm always for open debate. I'm always for an open dialogue I've run an unmoderated Uncensored I mean with the exception of spam and like outright blatant trolling. I don't delete posts and I Make sure that people even if they're women who just say I hate you. Well, I'll fuck you I'll be happy to put that on there, you know, as long as you tell me why what why do you think I'm a dick, you know Why do you think you know, why do you think? What I've so you know, if you feel that strongly about me What is it that you disagree with and I think that that will you know I don't want to go and and and just have conversations with myself like I said I'm not interested in in making better men I'm interested in men making themselves better men and part of that process is having an open and healthy discourse of ideas and Now a lot of this too was kind of predictable for you, right? This wasn't when I came to you talking about this You weren't yeah. Yeah, I figured that was gonna happen And I'm I was glad that you got some other guys, you know, some other more red pillow guys all along for the ride But Yeah, I mean like I said, I get accused quite a bit of especially in in RSD. I get I've been accused of having being a Professor of truthful anger and I Do agree. I agree that there's there are certainly some things about the red pill to be angry In fact, that's a phase that I talk about that men go through It's like the stages of grief when people have to accept death They go through a definite anger phase. There's other, you know, denial of oppression But there's definitely an anger phase and it's very easy to To wipe that off or wipe that angriness anger off on the red pill because When you're transitioning out of a blue pill conditioning or you're sort of Unlearning those things you still cling to them. You still like to you still like to believe that you can Like get your dream dream girl like I was saying you will never you'll never get to blue pill idealistic goals with inner with red pill awareness and I think that Even guys even got yeah, even guys who are aware even guys who become aware of it They they still cling to that or it's it's hard man It's hard to kill the beta because you're literally killing off part of yourself. You're literally killing the old You know, oh, I wish, you know, women would love me as much as I love them You know, you're off that old guy in you and that's why that's one of the reasons I you know Related or compared it to the five stages of grief because you're killing that dude and That old dude that was inside of you. The end result though is truly empowering. I mean, right? Yeah, I think so Exactly, I mean, you know, I exactly but it's not all bad guys Well, it's exactly and I think that the reason that I get accused of that anger is because when you are still clinging to that blue pill idea Idealism and we're still clinging to that and you know, hoping against hope that some of that might still be, you know It might still be true It seems like anything that is like said marginally unflattering of the feminine or even if it's like, you know 100% in your face, you know really harsh, you know cold bucket of truth poured over your head you don't want to have to To confront that because it is challenging to what I call one of them what I call a psychologist call Your ego investments because we're invested in this idea that well, you know, women and men are we should be equal You know, we might not be equal. We should be equal or you know, see things like that and When you get when you get wrapped up in that it's really hard to let that kind of stuff go and it's even harder to Let that stuff go when you build a business around it No, you are like when you were like Evan I even mark cats is another one of my favorite punching bags and the guy essentially caters to the to spinster women and In his, you know, his self-helpers dating coaches for these these poor single 40-something women He writes an occasional post about how guys should be more beta or how guys should be more sensitive to them Or how guys should but in but sprinkled in there is some red-pill truths And if I go to them and I say look Evan, you're full of shit and here's you know point a bcd and e It's the first the first You know counter the first response to that isn't anything as a that even sounds like a counter argument It's you're just angry. You're just bitter. Which isn't an argument Which is not an argument But it's but it comes back to just simply poisoning the well when you don't have any kind of counter argument but I as far as a you know, I don't want to I don't want to turn off any of the old old guard, you know, but No, I think I certainly will challenge. I would certainly challenge a lot of the beliefs of the guys and not in a bad way You know, I mean, I think that the the real test the true test of the strength of any Conviction of any ideology of any idea the trend the test of the strength of any idea is To be able to debate it an open honest debate and to be able to talk about that because as soon as you close yourself off I mean, we're constantly seeing these riots and shit going down in Berkeley and they're saying well It's free speech is free speech, but you know what? Nobody talks about what they're talking about nobody nobody goes in there and says, you know If you really want to fight against the fascists, you know quote-unquote fascist You really want to fight against the alt-right, you know The anti-fascist want to fight one fight against the alt-right if they really wanted to do that They would go into the into the debate and they would say here's why you're wrong or here's why you're right And they would have a real honest to God debate about the whole well But it's easier to simply throw throw pipe bombs at each other, you know, and I really think that you know If the guys, you know problem with me, that's that's fine. I'm glad you do, but just tell me why you know Tell me why I'm wrong. Yeah. Yeah, this is something I love about the convention that I don't think I've talked to you about the specific element before To me the speeches there doesn't it's rare. There's any kind of debate on the stage only during like maybe a Q&A panel and briefly But the way I see it is giving a talk that's on video that's audio recorded. Everything is lit. It's nice It's premium quality It's a window into your head and what you're thinking and it's a window into the ideas you're presenting obviously When we put that up on the internet that to me is then the debate it hits YouTube It's 21 University and then people can a think for themselves and decide on the content But be talk about it hash it out and I love that's gonna happen with you I think and yeah, well, I mean that's and it's in the introduction to both of my books is that I have always concentrated My primary efforts and I've got a third book coming out too as you know, but I always concentrate my primary efforts when I'm in my writing to Towards physical print material books because I and I make the least amount of royalties on those You know, I've got it in digital and I've got it in audio for the first book But I always focus on the print first walks on a designer. We're not artists by trade, but so it's sort of my baby but I also Made those books with the intent that guys would read through them Leaf through them put their you know, it's sticky notes in them Take a you know a highlighter to whatever is pertinent to them and then to Share it and to pass it on and to I mean, that's a pretty pretty radical title to have the rational male on that Oh, yeah, that was the first thing that stuck out to me about your website and who you are You know, it's funny is I have a lady I have my lady who does my taxes and she knows She knows, you know who I am and and what I write and everything But when she was first figuring it out, she's like what book do you write and I I mentioned something about it being the rational male and She was like, oh, you know That's that's exactly what I want That's exactly what I wanted to do when you're when you're on an airplane when you're when you're flying out to the 21 convention I hope you're reading my book and you have the cover displayed prominently for everyone who walks by you and You know, it's funny though when I first saw the title and got into your work later than again in 2016 I As my own bias I related it to what I do with the ideal man and helping them Like you're like you do, you know better themselves and actualize themselves to the highest that they can In this, you know, one life they have so to me I just saw it as kind of a different variation of the ideal man The ideal man is definitely a rational male who looks to reality and objective truth to make his life the best that he can I think your work is absolutely imperative for a guy to do that today. I will Probably you already know that my second speech is going to be second talk is going to be about positive masculinity and that is That's the topic of that talk and that's also the title of my upcoming book, which is called positive masculinity. I Have to sort of put a disclaimer out for that in that I don't want To give anyone the impression that my idea of positive masculinity is anything like the good man project I'm not going to tell you how to man up in fact, I'm not going to tell you what to do at all I might give you some ideas and give you some general, you know Ideas of what you could possibly do and how you might apply them to your life But I don't give I don't give a roadmap. I don't give I don't do prescriptions I don't I don't write prescriptions because I think everybody's different and I think everybody's situation is Going to be different Where whatever station of life they're in whatever whatever age they are Whether they're in, you know, Los Angeles or they're in Bangladesh, you know, I think you're if you're there's certain general truths about being a man for sure but I think that you can certainly take those and apply them to your individual circumstances and That is and has always been my you know my expect my express purpose is to make the rational mail and to make what I write Make the red pill on right pill awareness as universal as I possibly can like when I was at a the man-to-man conference I Had guys as old as gosh I think 68 70 coming up to me and saying hey man Thanks to change my life and then I've got another guy here who has his dad who he brought his dad there with him And this kid was like I think 21 22 maybe and he brought his dad who was in his 50s I think and and You know, it's it's for for everyone, you know, and That's another thing is I think that that the truth has brought appeal and it has a lot of applications to it Now with that said your new book is slightly more prescriptive than usual for you, right? Where's usually your a bit and the another thing is I I try tend to shy away I think that the red pill should be a moral and a religious and apolitical I think it needs to take a neutral sense because I think that objective truth is As in as far as we can really be aware of it and really make it happen or you know deduce what objective truth is I think the red pill needs to be that and I do give a little bit of advice and I advise but Some outlines for things that red pill fathers need to be aware of I have another that's one section I've dedicated almost a third of the book about a third of the book to red pill parenting and what you can do As a parent because I know that I get I get that a lot I go well, what are we gonna? How are you gonna make the next generation red pill? How are we gonna make the next my my son is being feminized? What do I do, you know? So I'm gonna give ideas. I have a question on this part actually So is that is that third of your book dedicated to your red pill parenting? Is that just for young fathers or fathers at whatever stage of life does not matter There's there's there's there's actually I got several posts on it on my site, too a lot of it a lot of the material is drawn from that but It doesn't matter. I have them in fact I address that a little bit for the guys who are younger fathers or have I should say have younger kids as Children what they can be aware. I'm curious about the guys who are yet to be fathers who are just single out doing Again, like I said, it's it's pretty much universal for if a guy wants to be a father It's things to think about and it's things to consider before he says, you know what? I think I want to be a dad or if maybe he was sort of tricked into a Pregnancy by someone just to understand what you're getting yourself into or what's happening with that Yeah, or maybe you've got a son or maybe you've got a daughter and you realize you see How in his school? He's being taught like a girl and being taught to emote like a woman and taught that it's correct to be taught and Be educated I should say as as girls do because that's really the state of most of our public schooling And that's just that's just for younger kids. I also get into you like well What if my son is 15? What if my son is older and what if? What if he and I are kind of estranged right now, you know, I get into parts about that Have you given any thought with this section of the upcoming book to guys who might use it to? Sort of reverse engineer it and use it to unplug from their own childhood Well, I have and I've included this in the in the book because I thought it was one of my more seminal posts But and I think it's very important. I have a post called promise keepers Okay, and what promise keepers is is it's and you probably know a few of these guys yourself It's guys who? Want to outdo their dad. They want to be a better man quote-unquote than their father was And in so doing they they want to not be the asshole dad They don't want to be the alcoholic drunk dad They don't want to be the dad that left mom and so it you end up getting sort of this. I call it you know what's pretty much widely knows the edible complex and that mommy needs protection and No matter what the real you know the reality of the upbringing really was because most most guys don't know Anything about the Redfield Perth, you know to begin with but they certainly don't know The games that men and women play today and particularly if mommy is bad-mouthing daddy You know, we already know that women Initiate 70% of all the divorce. Oh actually over 70% of divorce. Yeah, and and so You know when you're 15, you don't really you don't look for stats like that you just know that dad's an asshole and you don't want to be like him and So I get into that a little bit and when I was writing that I wasn't really writing that for for You know men who were fathers I was writing it about guys who sort of need to unplug from that and say you know what maybe your dad wasn't such an Asshole and maybe they left for a reason, you know, my my parents split up and and I wasn't really aware of any of the Back and forth between my mom and dad until I was gosh in my mid to late 20s You know and that was only because I was just starting to become a little bit more red pill You know and you know, I didn't even ask those questions But you know, I didn't yeah, my dad was a was a hard-ass for sure But I knowing my mother and who my mother was I could understand why he left But you know Speaking of, you know custody battles and divorce and things like that I don't know if you saw it But I think earlier today came out that Alex Jones just lost a custody battle for his children Oh, really was that in Canada or something like that? Or was it? I he lives in Texas. I know that But even with you know, all of his I'm sure he has plenty of money to hire lawyers and all that and even with all that Right, I lost it all but there's a good and this goes to anybody who's listening everybody wants in the in the chatroom right now There's a you can get the YouTube trailer on on YouTube. It's Documentary called divorce corp CRP and it will really open your eyes to why you don't want to get married and you will probably go mick towel after you Well, just get a prenup It's funny it's funny because even in in that in the documentary they say prenups don't work They're they're practically useless even guys who offer them even lawyers who like yeah, we do them But I don't believe in them. Yeah, they're happy to sell it to you You know that actually brings me to a point we brought up earlier a little bit RSD So a few months ago at this point maybe two three months I think Todd Valentine and RSD instructor for real social dynamics put out a video on the red pill I thought it was a complete disaster It didn't even look like he took it seriously and put effort into it. He just made a video on it put it out and there was Tell me about that. What were your thoughts on it? Well, as I was saying earlier I was already made aware that that was coming out before it didn't come out In fact, the guy who I I know in RSD was Pointing directly to that and that was one of the reasons I was very again cautious about Co-branding the rational male with RSD Since that time, of course, I have talked with Owen and I don't have any You know problem per se with Owen or even RSD that much, but I think that RSD has been Influential and definitely been a very positive force in game and understanding How to put, you know, what I would call red pill awareness into practice. I always talk about how The red pill is a theory and game is the experiment or it's the practice and one informs the other So when you take that red pill awareness and that red pill theory out into the field you use game to enact it and to experiment with it and You take your findings be they positive or negative or success or failure and you bring them back and we either modify what we're You know talking about or we confirm something I really think that in the past RSD has been very positive about that. I do know that they are a business I do know that they Have a lot of guys who are affiliates for them and As far as Todd is concerned, I even left a Comment on that YouTube video and you can go ahead and read that if anybody wants to dig that up But I think that his doing so is really more of a sales pitch And really more of a me it came it comes from a need to sanitize the red pill and turn the red pill into something That is more useful to him If he can say that he conflated I believe it was, you know male feminists with red pill guys or you know mick towels was a mick towels and red pill guys red pill guys are just these angry You know these angry guys again who have been bitter and burned and and really not without knowing much of anything about About the history of the red pill certainly not knowing anything about myself or no one not knowing anything about you know Even Royce or Roosh for that matter But you know claiming to be an authority on it while at the same time He's trying to tell you how to go get a girlfriend and how to you know Simply if you're gonna get married just get a prenup and he's got a video out called You know, I think it was like girl, you know how to get an instant girlfriend or some shit like that And it's you know, and I understand I understand and this is probably even relate back to the purple pill Conversation we were having before is I understand the want for you know a stable monogamous You know very blue pill fantasy of you know having that girl You know who's there by your side all the time, but it doesn't disqualify you from having to have rep awareness It doesn't take you out of the game Just because you've got the perfect girl. I've got I've had a wife for 20 years, man, and she is fucking great I love her death But you know what there's not it. I don't wake up on any morning going. Yeah, this is a sure thing I can let my guard down. I can just go ahead and you know get a beer belly and go out and I Don't ever think stuff like that because I know what happens and I understand the nature the fundamental nature of women Well, this brings up. I think a good tangent we could head off on this What are your thoughts if any on our case election theory? You know, I I really think that that's a Applying that to intersexual dynamics is fantastic. I'm the first one to Apply behavioral psychology to intersexual dynamics. I don't see why that would be Any different, you know, who's really really good at explaining that the RK Selection is Crouser Nick crap Nick Crouser is just absolutely fantastic about it. But I pretty much agree with it I understand the the you know selection pressures and I understand population pressures. I think that I To give you a little bit more visceral example of it I have a two-post one of them is called war brides and then the second one is called war brides of Europe and in war brides I go into a a Dynamic I guess you call it of how nature has selected for women who Have or more prone to say Stockholm syndrome who are happy to Align themselves and fall in love with their captors and And for reasons for evolutionary reasons that they had to do that by necessity because they didn't they died When an invading tribe came in and killed off a woman's tribe He would usually kill off the men and probably a good portion of the children too But they would leave the women alive and the only way a woman was going to survive and fulfill her biological imperative Which is hypergamming the only way she was going to be able to do that is to fall in love with her captor and fall in love with You know with whoever it was that had just basically dominated and taken over her village now I've extrapolated that into a great deal of other things, but that sort of comes back to arcade theory and particularly now in Europe we're seeing an influx of you know, Sierra of immigrants coming through and The protests and the men when we see these comparisons these very stark comparisons, I guess of You know these feminized European men versus these you know swore the Sierra where they want to say Syrian immigrants coming through at the invitation of a Governments that have been completely Assimilated by the female and the feminine imperative and we're looking at Marine Le Pen whose hope will you know We can say we can talk about her politics all we want. She's still a woman We can talk about Angela Merkel and her politics and but she's still a woman Oh, it was not going to get the I'm with her push. I think yeah, you're probably right about that But neither neither was Who's the Prime Minister of England right now is it another one. Yeah, I've got a Theresa May I think yeah I think that you will see the The You will definitely see what I what I said was the sisterhood element in all of them in the upcoming years Yes, you just made me realize that if Marie Le Pen wins France then Germany France and England all be run by women Oh, and let's not forget Sweden which has a primarily feminist run country You know, we actually ran the convention in Sweden back in 2010 Yeah I don't think I was gonna say I you probably didn't do it in one of the no-go Yeah, yeah, that's 2010. It was it was different back then. I'm glad I got to visit it given that it's gonna fall apart. I guess, yeah Let's move on to another topic unless you wanted to hit more in our state I don't know. It's I was just gonna status to finish up is yeah, I think that I Think that guy's like I would include guys like RSD Todd as Being in the same category as purple pill guys and I think he's a really good example of a guy who knows game very very well but is still very blue pill and is trying to use once again red pill awareness and game to Get at those blue pill idealistic Goals I have a it's another post and it's another chapter in the first book called dream girls and children with dynamite and I quote I quote Ross Jeffries in that one actually And he was the one who sort of coined the term children with dynamite because when you give guys just a game Experience and when you just teach them, okay here remember this, you know You teach them game by rote memorization and you don't teach them why things work You just teach them how to drive the car, right? The problem is is that You end up having an incomplete education So you can get your dream girl, but you still don't know enough about her and you don't know enough about the nature of women And you don't know enough about the real visceral, you know day-to-day Ugly side of hyper gaming because you don't want to look at that You don't want to face that because you're you're so happy with the blue pill side of things and that you are able to Get your dream girl that you're not really prepared to deal with her when she becomes a bitch That doesn't even factor in that the cluster B disorders and other mental health that she yeah, and that's yeah That's that's only that's only once that's that's an abnormal relationship. Yeah, exactly for whatever that means But but I was gonna say is that that's an incomplete education I think that when you only teach a guy's game and you don't teach them red pill stuff Or you don't teach them why things work You're you're really hobbling them you're only giving them one leg to stand on whereas if you Also, if you just give them red pill theory and if you just give them all the stuff and you say okay Well, that's it. You don't have to go out and do anything or you know name you're on your own that also You know doesn't motivate them to go out and test these things and find out how they work So I think that in any guys any ideal guy any positive We're asking the guy needs to know both game and he needs to know the red pill theory You know, I don't think that I don't think that Todd is Delivering that I think he's just giving you one side of it and trying to blow off the rest of it because it doesn't fit in his You know profit model. Well, you know, I don't know if I told you this but on this point When I found your site initially in 2015 So late 2014 and then in 2015 when I found your site I was actually getting the point in my life with game with women even being with Medusa at the time And I realized just through the through the convention that the theory was kind of light And I it was I was very suspicious that we hadn't found yet a pre-existing movement like red pill That focused on the theory and got it really really well And that's how I found your site as I was becoming that point of suspicious I was like there's no way I'm the only guy in the world to try to piece this together on a broad scale And then eventually I find your site and then eventually the red pill later on I think that's exactly what it does I've been I was given a lot of shit for for making this comparison And I had no way mean this in any mean spirit or anything like that But if you look at a guy like mystery right now and you see that he is Clinically depressed and probably has been for quite some time But he's clinically depressed and like next to suicidal and I hope he is okay. I really do I love the guy. I think he's done a lot of good stuff for the community and repelling everything else But he is a walking example of exactly what I was talking about here with children with dynamite He's a guy who can go out there and get chicks and turn, you know Turn ass left and right, but he can't live with them because he's still stuck in that blue pill mentality He's still stuck in the idea that you can get to that blue pill, polyanna Disney perfect relationship With a red pill knowledge and with with red pill, you know Uh With just the awareness, you know, and he just doesn't have that right now, you know Not for this dude And I mean, I guess I don't nothing against the dude personally But it's it when you don't have when all you have is game and you don't have Red pill theory you're you're handicapped and if the scene works vice versa So I think they are much healthier much more well-rounded guy You know, I I've said this a million times before I I attribute Like much of the success of my marriage such as it is To my understanding of red pill theory and being able to put it into practice within my marriage and even outside of my marriage I don't mean I'm cheating on women. I mean that I am All right I don't mean to cheat on my wife It means that I deal with women all the time in my line of work and I can apply You know red pill theory be that with game or just simply being who I am, you know and having it come naturally So, you know in my in my You know my personal life and my career life and just things like that So what's even influence the way you've been a father, which I think yes I've raised my daughter to to be responsive to to red pill guys You know, which is another topic for another whole hour Um, so you mentioned ross jeppi's a few minutes ago I was actually surprised that uh when I mentioned to you that we got him as a confirmed speaker for the convention this year in september You're impressed and I didn't know that you were I'm familiar with him enough to have seen the videos of him I think back in the early 90s where he was just getting run up the flagpole for I think it was neuro linguistic programming or something like that And uh, you can if you even just look up on on youtube ross jeppi's you'll see some of his old stuff There's I mean and I mean really old stuff from like the early to mid 90s And I'm he's and I think he'd probably would agree to this. He's the old guy in the man's pair in a I I can't see as I agree with 100 of what the guy had gone into but I think that he was one of the first, you know Trailblazers, I guess so I thought it was kind of interesting. I mean if you would have got like, uh Dr. Ferrell or something like that, I would probably be equally impressed even though I'm not like necessarily a fan of ferrell now Yeah You know, uh, one of the factors that went into actually having him as a speaker. So there's a few but uh Andrew the private man's death So a mutual friend of ours died, you know a few weeks ago and him dying, you know, as long as I knew him, which wasn't that long They didn't be pretty hard And I look at someone like ross who I think is in his 60s, maybe close to 70 and I'm like You know, he looks to be in decent health, but I mean shit. This guy could drop dead tomorrow for all I know They never know I am I wrote a post about it when when uh, when private man died and Um, yeah Private man's death kind of hit me kind of hard too only because I knew he was I talked to to Andrew like lots of times before You know before he really even announced about his eye His eye cancer when he lost his eye But I had talked to him privately, um, you know over the phone Helped him out helped him out with his cell phone bill once actually but he uh he was an interesting dude and I think that he filled the niche that is going to be really tough to fill later on because he was the guy who was there to More or less teach red pill to guys who are coming out of divorce Who are middle-aged who think they're out of the game and to think that they're fucked and he was a good Guy to talk to you that would sort of bring guys back from the brink. I think Or a really good guy and I think I think there's really a loss. I am You know this already, but I asked Andrew to write the forward to my third book And um, unfortunately, he passed before he could finish it So I am having to do a lot of really introspective soul searching About it because I am now writing the forward because I want it to be a dedication and a memorial to Andrew so the forward of my book will will be all about Andrew and um You know actually man the last time I saw him was march 20th And I was one of the things I wanted to ask him was how that was going and I completely forgot Yeah, well, I mean I was I was actually surprised that it was so aggressive that it took him that quickly Yeah, but it I will say that it also Woke me up and you'll read about this in the forward But it also woke me up to exactly what you're just saying is that you never know When it's time to go and I Was making comparisons to like the guy like steve jobs who Found out that he had cancer and he decided to turn that knowledge into just this complete, you know, crazy You know manic drive To come up with you know new inventions and come up with a I think he came up with with like the iphone the ipad Different variations of the mac books and just all this all this product that came out between the time that he found out He had cancer and the time he died And I don't know if you've ever read or listened to the Biography of steve jobs Yeah, 100 there's a there's a section in there where Or steve says that he wanted to put a dent in the universe I definitely think he did and I think that that is something really that Every guy sort of needs to To consider and consider that now rather than later And I would like to think that the rational male and what I've written up to this point And hopefully what I write after this point will be my dent in the universe I it's fun. It's really weird I'd say it's a really weird experience for me to be writing in the middle of writing a book because I didn't think about this in the First book to be in the middle of writing a book And to wonder how my grandchildren or my great-grandchildren are going to receive What i'm writing about, you know, like, oh, yeah, this guy was my grandfather Rola to master was my great-grandfather, you know, and just to Just to imagine what they'll think of it in you know 100 years from now Well, I'm actually thinking when you when you talk about this not just them reading it directly But what the consequences are of your work? Yeah impact are you going to make the dent exactly exactly what are they going to actually experience face to face from your I mean, I have guys who tell me that they they You know that what I wrote saved their lives and you know that they put down that could put down the gun because of it And that that's you know Anybody who knows me knows that the one of the One of the catalysts of my beginning to write in the manasphere was my my father my father my brother-in-law's suicide And what if I have if I ever have a a red pill Unplugging moment that there's any sort of you know point at which I would say I went red pill it was right after that because I was just astonished by how callous the women in his life were after he was gone and how Um, how indifferent they were to his death and the consequences and all of the things that led up to him Putting a new sort of literally putting a rope around his neck And and that you know before and after and I know all of the events and everything that led up to that and this was at a time when I was you know in school and I was You know going through my behavioral psychology classes and I was writing for so-so And I'm just listening to this and even women that didn't even know that I that I had described the situation to They were just completely sympathetic of the woman and they were could give a shit about about the man who would basically kill himself Because he couldn't live without You know his wife who was going to divorce him right and It's just that was just amazing to me that even after He's gone He made no impact. He made no, you know, the only thing they're going to remember about him is just like that. He had a couple of kids Remember really And it's just and you can go at any time, you know, I hope I don't die after this I don't think I'm going to You know, it's I what was it? I think it was Pablo Picasso who said never never put off Today which you can die tomorrow Having let them done Yeah, yeah, that actually it reminds me again of the private man. I uh, he was a confirmed speaker for this upcoming event in Orlando And then in january he called me and we talked and it became very apparent to me that he wasn't going to make that event No matter what whereas I had thought I had another two or three events with them to to produce speeches with Yeah, and that's when I was looking back then in Miami this past october and I was like, holy shit Did I luck out getting him at the event? Like I had I had no idea when I was talking to him about that event But that would be his first and last talk ever at the event I know I know and and now it's now it kind of hits you in the gut, doesn't it? Yeah, it's fucking intense, man It's holy shit. The last thing he said to me was uh, make sure I live forever I almost cried man when he said I know I plan on it That's he said that to me too when I when I was talking to him about doing the forward And I said this this can be your memorial if you want it to Nope, yeah Nope Um, so that's about all the major points. I wanted to go through from here. I'm gonna take some questions Yeah, yeah, uh, I have a few typed up uh from one of my guys and then from there we can go live So do you guys listening in live? Go ahead and ask questions. Uh, bunch of you already have and we'll go through those as well So he wrote me a couple of them of the one that uh really stuck out to me that I thought would be kind of fun to give you You mentioned in your book I'm not sure which one he's referring to but one of them That her imagination is the biggest tool in your arsenal And you give some examples how you've used this with your wife or previous woman Uh, okay. Well, I'm imagination or the imagining of imaginings of women is something I believe is intrinsic to the the female nature and I believe that in the sense that because women are hypergamist. They have to imagine What is possible when it comes to getting with a guy? Uh, we I'm sure you've probably heard about, um It's a common trope. It's uh women's female intuition, right? And how they're supposed to have some supernatural power to figure you out, you know Because they just rely on their womanly instincts and they can figure one of my favorite things that to use a woman about Or we we we refer to it as the the feminine mystique that they're these unknowable creatures that can never be figured out and we we always like to I I know what I'm dealing with when I have an old guy come up to me and like, you know Elbow me in the ribs and go hey Women I guess we'll never figure them out. You know, and that's when I know that you have been completely and irrecoverably, you know Conditioned by the blue pill. Yeah, it's like the ray romanos of it. Exactly. Exactly. Um, but I think that that womanly intuition is really more of an evidence of women imagining certain things and I think it's important to remember that women's imaginings are always based on Uh, their primary directive, which is their sexual strategy so If and again, it's important to sort of break that down to this women's sexual strategies has two sides to it There's the alpha fucks and there's the beta bucks. There's the short term sexual breeding urgency For women and then there is the long term provisioning parental investment side of hypergamy So it's important to keep those things in mind because imagination can work for both of those aspects of her Of her sexual strategy. Okay, so when you are let's say you're dating a woman and you're you've never never fucked Or you've never done anything. I think one of the the most Important things for you to do is not to spill your guts on the first date And not to not to give her your life story. I think one of the the biggest drawbacks to the age of technology and instant messaging and everything else is that women are Well guys particularly but women are also so available to Guys 100% of the time so by the time you even get to the first date if you've said, oh, yeah I grew up in such and such. I did this my mom and dad are separated And you just give them this life story There's nothing to figure out and there's no mystery to it And I'm sure you've heard this a million times where it's like, well, you got to be a mystery to a girl, right? Well, it does you no favors if you are giving away the farm and you need to be Uh Something that a woman figures out and I've said this on a couple of different posts but there's nothing more satisfying to a woman than to Think for them for her to believe That she has figured you out with her womanly intuition And I say that in quotes because it's a myth when we don't really have any Womanly intuition, but they like to think they do And again that kind of comes back to their capacity for communications because they want to Imply they want to infer Things that you didn't say and they want that more than your confirmation of What it is that they're thinking They would rather be used by that by that communication or by that that interaction than have it confirmed for them Well, part of this too is to keep them kind of chewing on it, right? So you want them to figure out? Yeah, they figured out part of you but not all you want to be you want to be an onion You want to be many layers that they can peel away? Okay? That's that's one aspect of of imagination of employing imagination Another aspect that works for both sides of this if you're married or if and if you're not married is to imply But not confirm That you are In demand that you are a commodity that other women will fight and compete with her for So if you are not that's why I always tell the guys, you know spin plates don't be exclusive with a woman I'm not saying be a man whore and run out and just go fuck willy-nilly whoever you want No I'm saying is that when you are non exclusive with a woman and you don't commit to her And you don't want her to be your girlfriend on the first fucking date Then you are implying that you have other options and that you are a guy who at least believes he has other options So that of course implies confidence And then what I'm saying in that situation is that you can also apply that I should say to dread and dread is another another way that you can You can use a woman's imagination To the dread of losing you or the dread of loss of investment really is what it is because the woman invests herself in you in some way And she's uncertain of that She's going to compete and she's going to keep herself on her toes as opposed to Getting relaxed being comfortable you moved in with her. There's no challenge left to you No other girl would ever want to fuck you so You know, I'm just going to relax and I have to do anything Dread would be particularly important in a relationship then right? Oh, definitely And I've got I have several posts on dread. In fact, I I get in trouble for for implying that men should directly use dread Um, I think that it should be used. I think that it should be should you should be used passively I I'm going to be like, oh, well, you do your dredger wife all the time. No, I don't I don't go and say Hey, look, bitch, you don't do me and then I'm going to have somebody else I never use a direct, you know a dread with my wife. I do however use passive dread and I always have Because I've always kept myself in shape. I love just my line of work. I'm around beautiful women all the time I'm selecting beautiful women to go to bit to my my promotions with me Um, I'm you know, and even when I wasn't working in the liquor industry I was working in uh gaming in the casino industry or I was working in promotions You know like entertainment promotions and stuff like that So it was it was not said because it didn't need to be said Um, I can remember one time I was uh, I was going as me and my wife were both going to the gym one time And uh, the front desk girl is very attractive Stops us before we leave because she really likes it. He knows kind of a friend of ours And she says I just love you two guys so much and and my wife's like why she said because you guys are so ideal You guys are you know, this guy is so perfect for you and she just starts giving me all of these confidence Just out of the fucking blue. I mean Unsolicited and I don't work with her. I should just a friend that happened to be at the gym Good looking girl and But because I have red pill awareness. I let it go. I didn't go. Oh, baby. Don't worry about it I'm you're the only girl for me you know, I I didn't jump into those things where I'm trying to to pacify that and and and be okay, you know have her be okay because I don't first of all I don't think she's gonna be insecure about it anyways, but um But most guys will do that they'll go. Oh, well Um, yeah, don't worry about you know, I know she said I was attractive, but don't worry girl You're the only girl for me, you know, that they'll try to to pacify and The sub communication don't yeah, they're truly uh pacifying it Could you what about though if you were to say those things but do so with like a wink and uh, Right. Yeah. Well, that's that's you know things is don't discourage flirting and don't discourage the fallout of flirting because For as much as you think that's going to get you in trouble or anything. Oh, well, my wife will leave me by flirting with somebody else. Well, you know what flirting Yeah, I was gonna say flirting Flirting goes both ways So if you're just being there and you're being a creep and you're you're winking and nodding the waitress is like going Get away from me. That's one thing. It's another thing if she's you know initiating it and you're flirting back a little bit That's another thing. So again, that that becomes contextual But all of that all of that goes back to a woman's imagination. Yeah Cool Next question I like this one too a lot. Uh, what are some of the best ways to test for genuine desire when first meeting a woman? Um I I mentioned I've got an upcoming post. I don't have a post for this one. Yeah um, I have an upcoming post that Goes into what I call the hell. Yeah um response And I I will full disclosure. I stole that from mark manson back when he actually had something good to say Um, the the idea is that if you ask a woman to Go have a drink with you or you ask a woman and you're talking you're talking to a woman and you suggest Hey, let's go have dinner or hey, let's you're making an approach Right, maybe you're not doing it like super direct, but you're just doing it even even indirect approach The answer should always be hell. Yes Hell. Yes. I want to go to have a drink with you or a coffee with you or whatever hell Yes, I want to go see this show with you. Hell. Yes I you know hell fucking. Yes. I want to have sex. I want to have your fucking babies. That's what the That's that's genuine desire that that is the first thing that you want to hear out of a woman's mouth now There are guys I don't I They're probably guys listening to this right now who have experienced the hell. Yes They've experienced the oh man. I can't wait to wait. Can we can we go now? You know, can we can we come I'm gonna drop what I'm doing and let's go That's genuine desire. Okay anything that comes back from that any kind of hesitation any kind of Maybe if I did this, you know any kind of just, you know Minor hesitation that comes in from that By order of degree that is a less Indicate why it's a less interest level to we call it i l but It's a lower i l but and that's by order of degrees all the way back down to hell. No Some of this too would coincide with the woman's age, right as if she's maturing over time Say her epiphany phase now if you got a lack of genuine desire, but still some interest She could be in like full beta books mode, right? Oh for sure Yeah, it's also important. I wrote about this in the second book because it's important to understand At what phase of maturity that a woman happens to be in A woman's hypergamous prioritization of the things that she wants in a guy When she's 22 is not going to be the same thing. She wants when she's 42 And the priorities will have shifted because her needs and her necessity has shifted Or usually has shifted just depends on you know, which which paths she happened to follow I I spell out a very distinct timeline for women's You know phase of maturation It's I'm not saying that's a hard and fast rule because some women reach different Phases earlier or much later than than others. But um, but yeah, definitely there's definitely that but the interest level When it comes to genuine desire, how do you test for that? You have to be aware of what the tells are and what the What the body language is telling you what the what the subtext and the sub meanings of certain things are Like I was saying before women will will shit test you no matter what You know what phase you're in no matter whether they're single or you're married or whatever They're always going to shit test you for fitness because there's always that hypergamous doubt And no matter the value difference too, right? Even if you're more attractive or more have more value than she does in the marketplace Now, I know I was going to just to continue here Let's say I know that there's guys right now who have experienced the hell yes And then they experienced the well, yeah, kind of yes, you know, or the well, maybe if you did this You know answer and so there's guys who have that breadth of experience where that because I've had Mac back back in my 20s when I was a semi professional musician. I got the hell. Yes a lot Okay, and then after I sort of abandoned that and I was you know doing other things You know in between meeting my wife and everything it was It was maybe you know Maybe if you did that or even prior to that when I was in my beta phase when I was in a very blue pill Beta phase when I was coming out of high school and just getting into my my late teens in my early 20s I constantly got that Well, you're a nice guy and maybe if you're single when you're 28, you could just wait for me, you know And you'll be great It's it's funny when you hear stuff like that because you know that women in their hind brains They have that plan They already know that they want to go and fuck as many alpha dudes as they possibly can in their 20s When they're when they're at their hottest and they want you to wait for them when you're 28 29 years old because they know They'll be needing a nice guy like you to come around to be ready for them when they're guys are not fucking aware of this And this that is subconscious and it's written into women's you know mental firmware So but anyways, uh just as far as determining genuine interest There's there's certain ways you can test for it But I think the easiest way to do it is just to simply listen to answers and listen to enthusiasm You know when we talk about like the consent laws and we want to have you know enthusiastic consent all the time Well, we all know that consent is really not Enthusiastic all the fucking time. I mean even pickup artists will tell you, you know You need to move past the last minute resistance And you need to if a lot of pickup artists will tell you that if A girl is not interested to you in the first place that doesn't mean stop That doesn't mean like just give it up and walk away and go do whatever it means that you can you can calibrate And you can come back and you can you know try it again and push past that Um, I'm not going to argue against that. I think that that that is, you know, possibly true So that women that who you know didn't realize that they wanted to fuck you can be made to Realize that they do want fuck you But I'm more of the opinion that you want the hell. Yeah You want the you want that really positive super, you know, submission is what it really is It's a it's a submission and an acknowledgement of you being an ideal for her And again that that comes back to that comes back to sexual market value and stuff like that but I think that the the best way to test it is to listen for stuff like that and See the dilation in the eyes and see that they you know Which does she get excited when she when you walk into the room and just stuff like that is subtle subtle sub communications that women give off and you know what it's not subtle to them because like I said They have a much greater capacity for communication. So when they do that, they're expecting you to go Oh, she does dig me. Yep, right. And if you don't she's like, what's wrong with this guy? Why doesn't you get it? Yeah, they can't understand that you don't communicate like them that it's a difficult pickup on it Um, so let's go to some live questions We've got like man, you've got over a hundred comments so far. There's been a ton of these things. Oh, jeez. Okay questions, but I got about another Half hour. Okay, let's get to I don't think we'll go that long. I'm it's uh, we've been going for two hours now. So that's been a while So, uh, here's the first one simple one one is preventative medicine available Uh, oh and audible Okay, um preventive medicine is still in the audio recording stages right now. I have Sam Boda who's the guy who did my My first book is doing the second book as well Um, I wish I'd give you a concrete date right now because I know we're in post-production with that And I know that there's when we do an audible book audible is very very, uh Very persnickety about the quality of the books that they got. I mean, you know, rightfully so Um, so they want to make sure that it's it's a hundred percent and you're enunciating everything You know, it's funny is like it can take a long time to read a book But then you have to go do the post-production for it And then you have to go back and reread certain sections of it that were maybe less clear than others And then what you have to do is you have to go and do all of the sound Sound management and production stuff and then you have to send it off to audible who has their team of experts Listen to the entire book Wow, which can be, you know, as long as 14 20 hours and hours and hours So that takes a bit of time And then if you don't get it back, then you've got to then you go into production with it And it takes a little while after that, but I do know that the initial reading is done I know that they're doing the edits and they're doing the post-production right now So I'm hoping that the audible for preventive medicine will be available Before July maybe august. Okay. That's my best guess Next question ends following up right on that. When is the third book the rational male positive masculinity coming out? Any word on any word on that? I had So I had just I had yeah, it's it's coming. I'll just give you a roundabout date. It's going to be the end of may Um, but I will say I was hoping to have it out earlier But again, like I said, I was I was hoping to have um, andrew be a part of it Um, and so things didn't work out like that So I've had to go back and sort of rewrite some things myself. Um, and then it goes to edits and I am Uh, I'm going to insist that this particular Book be edited at least twice Maybe three times by an outside editor because that's the one thing people really string me up for is my Old editor in my first book, which will be the next priority that I have after the third book comes out because I'm going to release a An updated edition of the first book don't change anything content-wise. It's just I'm going to tighten things up for the grammar errors and And uh, just punctuation and I'm going to increase the type size And because I say something funny about the first book is um, I never intended to write a second or a third or fourth book I was writing the first book because I really just thought that I was going to write that one book And that was going to be it I was going to be my tour de force and I want to put as much into it as I possibly could And I did not anticipate the popularity and the reach and just the resonance of that book even to this I mean for me to be even be talking about this were like three and a half years later Um, it's just it's still amazing to me. It's still great and I I'm still in love with that book now So I want to make that a little bit better of a product and I'm also going to release a hardback version of the first book Add to words. So so look forward and hardback and look for a second edition of it That's going to be a little bit tighter and maybe one that you will be happy to give to your friends You know, you're a yeah, totally, you know the uh story you just told us about You know writing the first book and anticipating how big of a hit it'd be You thought that be all there would be to say A lot of other speakers particularly the health guys have gone through a lot of the same Uh Chronological event mark system one of the biggest guys we've ever had He actually intended to write his blog for one year And then that would be it because that'd be all there was and then of course it's now like one of the biggest health websites in the world So I think that's the direction you've gone, man. I I do that a lot too. Like I was I was thinking that I I tend to as even my personal my business life I tend to have like one big thing that I'm working on. It's my main project And it's like the focus of my career is like whatever, you know liquor brand I was on or whatever casino I was working for And uh, then I'll use that as a springboard into something else And I have a especially when it comes to liquor brands I have a real tendency to make my main source of income my passive source of income as I move on to another thing Um, but the one thing that I've always had, you know, as far as my side Project has always been the rational male and it's something that has sort of taken on a life of itself And I really think it's it's something I I really wish I could do full-time I wish I could be a full-time writer. I wish I could do all that but I'm really hesitant to do that because that would remove me from Being out in the field, you know, I I I need to be interacting with people I need to be out at a club doing a promo. I need to be out at a concert I need to be talking and watching and people watching all the time because that's where my best ideas come from It's just watching people interact. I mean I couldn't I couldn't speak to millennials The way I do right now if I wasn't out there, um, you know At at the clubs are out there doing what I do just professionally So I take what I do professionally and I make mental notes sometimes physical notes of it And bring it back and turn it into a blog post. So, um, I don't know I I I think I probably have this book and one more after that For the rational male series. So I think I'll probably be a total of four and then Let's remember that I'm I'm curious to see where that goes Well, and then after that I'm going to I thought the other one is going to be a little bit more specialized Then this one's a much more generalized, you know, it's probably I don't want to leave guys hanging You know, I want guys to like I think in preventive medicine I gave you this outline of how women are going to be at certain ages of their lives and what they're going through Um, because guys always said, you know, rollo, how come you weren't around when I was 21? I made all these horrible mistakes, you know, I wish I would have known all this shit when I was younger So I could have avoided all the pitfalls and everything And so that's why I wrote that book is so that people could go. Okay, give this to your kids or Okay, you're 30. This is what you can expect when you're 60, you know And so that that's what prompted the second book The third book like positive masculinity is really more designed to address Give guys ideas about what they can do. I'm not going to tell you what to do And I'm not going to give you a bullet point listed things to do per se, but I definitely think there are some general ideas that guys can apply towards, you know Seeing masculinity as a positive rather than being ridiculous or rather than being something, you know negative or toxic masculinity and shit like that. It's really an effort to counter this It's my feeling that the feminine imperative has made a deliberate effort to confuse men about masculinity and to To get them to question it all the time like, well, are you questioning my masculinity? Or are you secure in your masculinity or what does masculinity mean to you? It means that you're some chauvinist, you know, mask that you wear And, you know, they they want to define it for you And that's what I'd say in the book is like the village the the feminine imperative village You know, it takes a village to raise a kid The village wants you to question your masculinity once you think it's a negative and I'm here to say that it's a positive And I'm not like I don't mean a positive in the good man project way I mean, it's a positive in you need to own it and you need to know what conventional masculinity is rather than what this feminized Nonversion of masculinity is so that's that was the purpose for the third book Then I'm thinking I might do some actually get into red pill fiction You know, right, right because we're always complaining about like, oh man, I hate the new star wars because it's so, you know Mary's you fem centric and I think I hate this story. I hate that story We're gonna have the new female ghost busters. You know the new female oceans 11 and stuff like that. I'm just like Fuck that. I mean, let's get back to like the The the real You know pulp fiction I don't mean the movie but the real pulp fiction for for guys to who guys can get behind and yes They're going to be dudes who are going to embrace a conventional masculinity and have a red pill masculinity And I think it's time for characters like that. And I whether that's in, you know modern day life type stuff or it's, you know, some sort of fantasy type thing I mean, that's that's fine. I'm not going to end up being a fantasy writer tomorrow But I'm just saying that there's certain I have certain ideas But I think that the characters that I want to develop I are going to be red pill men and women who are not really women but and women who understand and appreciate and follow along Like the reality of you know, that women actually do, you know, they like the bad boys and they don't really like the nice guys You know that kind of shit. So that's why that's what I would like to explore is doing some rightful fiction Now you mentioned positive masculinity obviously a lot and that's the subtitle of the new book Your talk at the convention, is that going to be like a shortened or condensed version of the book? Very much so. Yeah, it's it's going to certainly discuss. Uh, I mean, if you it'll help you It'll be a good idea if you go to both of my talks. I'm not going to discourage any of my talks I think everyone will attend both of them The hypergamy talk will be very similar to the one that I gave at the man-in-demand conference And I think that that is a fundamental Found foundation that that guys need to understand they understand why women are the way they are and How hypergamy and auditors shift in all of these biological and psychological reasons lead to A society that is feminine centric and that's where we start I go I actually my my little private title for that speech is uh, hypergamy from the micro to the macro okay, so um That's going to be that but the positive masculinity one you could certainly springboards off of that, but It will be about again Giving guys ideas and and really confronting what red pill masculinity is and what you're getting back to positive conventional masculinity and not being afraid to to embrace that and to sort of dispel the The bullshit that uh, the feminine imperative what has conditioned and raised boys into men to believe about masculine Uh, sorry, I'm reading some of the comments here. Someone was fucked up Well, one guy, uh, one guy who's what do you do if you live in florida and every chick is a psycho What? You know, I'll just I'll just to just to give you a quick joke about that when you and I were talking about Like your psycho medusa and I was telling you about with the bpd woman that I was involved with for close to four years There's one of the reasons that One of the reasons that I didn't really realize that it was a psychosis or it was a clinical psychological disorder Was because so many women like exhibit the exact same Psychosis and disorder that you're like. Oh, well, that's just a chick being a chick And and so you forgive that and you go, oh gosh, and then especially if you've been like raised blue pill You want you think there's something wrong with you you think that oh gosh I'm such a sexist chauvinist asshole and I was brought up the wrong way If only I could change myself and be a better person than this psycho would accept me Well, it's also part of the disorders there. Those are some of the tactics are throwing at you Yeah, exactly. That's this is deliberate. They want you to think that Yeah, and yes, and yes, I lived in florida. I understand what you're saying Um, so another one of the final questions that was asked, I think it's a good one It's from uh, I did tia cataria And it says how will this new generation? Change with masculinity will we get more red pill men or more feminized men in the coming years? If I have anything to say about it I mean, yeah We're on the same page there. Well, why are we why are we doing this kind of conference? Um, well, I I and I understand why there is that question And again, that sort of goes back to the he versus she when we were talking about uh, hillary and trump That is the the very fact that a guy would need to ask that question And would be wondering about that question is evidence of the conflict between the he and the she In society and in the larger, you know, socio psychological scope I I hope I I mean right now is the way things stand and I cover this in the book I I cover uh in the parenting part of the third book How Boys are raised to be gender loading and how to see anything that looks like conventional masculinity Notice, I'm not saying traditional masculine conventional masculinity Anything that looks like that they can't tear themselves away from thinking that it's bullying And they can't like when I'm when a man tests a boy or when a boy tests a boy or a man tests a man And you get a sharp kick in the ass or you're in the military or you're you know basic training or you're In in some you know in some you know team sport where you have to be kicked in the ass to be better You know, you know what they say steel sharpen steel. Oh, yeah, and and you know men can sharpen men We are taught from a very early age that the techniques that are used to do that We are taught to conflate those with bullying and with being some You know macho bullshit asshole who you know gets off on hurting little boys because it makes them feel more like a man And you'll notice that even in that little trope feel more like a man They're still they're still degrading what a man is. They're still Well, you can't even say man a lot of the time now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly You know, it's funny is I had a I had a guy Guy here I go. I had a young man I've listened to him in this conversation with one of my poor girls and the guy had to be I don't know 18 19 years old and he's like talking to this girl and he said something about how He owned up to it. He says, yeah Well as a man and he was referring to himself as a man I'm a man and I you know as soon as he said the word man and refer to himself She started laughing You're a man, you know, and it's like I It was just the knee-jerk reaction or like when I was telling you about my tax lady who says oh rational male You know, and it's like that's That is endemic in society and although we're not supposed to believe that we're supposed to believe that It's a man's world and massages to run everything and sexist bet, you know Boys clubs, you know run businesses and fortune 500 companies We're supposed to believe that but yet we still have this little girl facing down the big bull on wall street, right? and we we We demonize masculinity. We make it toxic. We We teach little boys to hate being being Being male. Well, not that but we angelicize, you know femininating women And then we hold that as in in a religious sense and from I'm just going to use evangelical Christianity here We we hold women as being closer to God You know that they are more in touch with God than men are and we have to we have to measure up to the expectations of women If we want to get closer to God And so when you when you have society like that it you're dealing with a you know Feminine primary social order is what you're dealing with and I was going to say is that this this is Endemic of how we raise and teach our kids, especially, you know when it comes to boys We we teach them in female centric Girl correct ways and we and if a boy acts out like a boy, we drug him. We sedate him. We give him we give him Adderall, whatever Or we say he's autistic or we say he's got some sort of you know something wrong with him. He's male He's got boy boy disease. He's got testosterone in his veins. So he must be poisoned And so I I think it was um, I had a guy send me the picture of this I got a post of it, but it's also in the second book about uh, it was these knows a picture of A presentation of some sorts like a projector presentation About how they asked these boys who were in grade school I believe they were like eight or nine years old and what they disliked about being a boy And all of the top reasons that these boys gave were exactly what sounded exactly as if they came out of a women's studies You know class Oh, I can't be a mother and all you know the worst things about being a boy Is that the worst things about being a boy were that they couldn't be girls And we see that right now in Like I said in our education and we see that right now, particularly in transgenderism And that's sort of my my pet peeve right now and if you follow me on twitter You'll call it the gender eugenics, right? It's gender eugenics And um, if you if you ever a really good book to read or to listen to is the red queen by By ridley, uh, I can't remember first name, but he goes into a Very scientific very statistically accurate reason as to why certain populations and not just human populations but populations of higher order animals will opt to become female or male as environmental conditions Make either one of those sexes advantageous or disadvantageous and like for instance The easy one is in china with the one child policy that they had for so long Everybody wanted a boy And he didn't want a girl to the point where they would abort girls or they would drown girls So they could just have the one single boy because it was more advantageous Environmentally and socially to have a boy because they figured well the boy's going to bring in money He's going to have more chance of success and those little girls are you're not going to have the chance for success The thing is that has shifted now Because there is a glut of boys and the boys are jobless and the boys are have no prospects for the future Except for a very precious few of them who are higher, you know higher social status, you know high earners Within that society and so it is more advantageous now to have a girl And so because that girl can bring prosperity to the family by marrying a high-end boy or a high status boy Especially a western guy Yes, so that's that's the easy For westernizing for sure, but if you look at where we're at right now You will notice that the vast majority and I believe it's anywhere between 80 and 90 percent of transgender children as young as four Fucking years old are from boys to girls And not just from like, you know, we're supposed to believe that there's 21 or 28 different fucking genders And that we're not buying new genders. It's 48. It's 48. I'm sorry. They must have increased it since then But we're supposed to believe that there's non binary genders yet The most common transition is from a boy to a binary girl Why is that? Yeah, and it's celebrated and it's and it's chemically treated so that their hormones will be blocked So that they they will be blocked from becoming or developing into a boy for as long as possible And you mean specifically prepubescent as what yes, I'm talking as young as five six seven years old And giving chemically treating them for this Hey, I know you have to get off soon. I want to just switch topics real quick one last thing Uh, what are your thoughts on jordan b. Peterson? Someone asked that in the comments One of my thoughts in jordan b. Peterson. I think the man is absolutely brilliant. I think from his uh From what I've seen of him and from what I I understand why he is sort of the sweetheart of A lot of guys in the red pill right now in the atmosphere right now because he's standing up against that transgenderism And that's great and and he I agree 100 percent of what he says about His evaluations I guess with uh transgender Nonsense that's going on in on college campuses. Um, I think that it's a crime Well, it would be a crime if he were to lose his job over that because you know, we need to Like I said, we need to test ideas in the crucible of open discussion rather than shouting them down or silencing them Um, I I think that jordan b. Peterson and I probably share a lot of the same ideas when it comes to stuff like that Obviously very well versed statistically and biologically and so if there is one area that I disagree with him on it is his, um He's very blue pill and I hate to say that Yes, he's still clinging to it He's still clinging to that blue pill in the same way that um a lot of the mra's I know are Are very, you know, we want egalitarian equalism and that's an ideal when it's not um, I also understand, um And I mean I whenever I listen to the guy and I listen to some of the The stuff that comes out of his mouth and it's you know, it's a lot of the same gender tropes that I hear From coming from a feminine primary or feminine imperative, uh, you know people who promote that And I think that he's still very much blue pill when it comes to Intergendered, you know intersexual dynamics, but when it comes to pretty much everything else I think the guy's spot on and that's one of the things that really kills me about listening to the guy because I think he's fantastic, you know other than that and if he could just make that that little push over Well, just goes to show that even being even being as intelligent as he is and he's brilliant I agree. I've looked a lot of his videos too. He's still steeped in blue pill idealism and and that that world can't It's hard to get out of it. Well, it's the same thing It's the same disappointment I had with Warren Farrell as Warren Farrell has this Encyclopedic knowledge of like, you know, gender differences and intersexual dynamics The book he has called Why men are the way they are is that should be a precursor to the red pill bible or whatever, you know, that and is just Spot on it was written back in 1986 and the guy has had this knowledge in his head for, you know, since then and I I really am disappointed with the guy because every time I talk to him He sounds like a feminist and but a reverse feminist in that he believes that, you know We we should from a top-down position change society to be more equal to men And I'm saying that you are never going to have that equality because men and women are different And that there you go with private men again men and women are different And they are different, but they are and then none of them Men are not better than women women are not better than men But we are different and we are meant to be complementary to each other and we evolved to be complementary towards each other And when you say different you mean very very fundamentally different fundamentally different like psychologically different like biologically different endocrinologist Different Yeah, well that and it does and it sounds misogynistic and bitter and angry And you know why it does because everyone has been brought up from a very early age to think that we're all the same That we're all just You know, we all have the same potential and yet we're still going to turn boys into girls And we're still we all have the same potential and we all have we're all the same except for the biology and the plumbing But we're all have we're all the same egalitarian Egalitarian wise we're all the same blank slates and and but yet You know women women will be the first people to to tell you that women have You know a better capacity for Language and in some cases that's an advantage. That's fantastic. I'm glad, you know That's a strength that women have is they have a better capacity for Communication but men have a better capacity for rational thought and have a better capacity for spatial You know pattern recognition and spatial definition and they've got you know We can throw a spear right out of the womb, you know Because we have that we have that in our firmware, but we'll deny that about men But we'll be happy to accept whatever's flattering to women Yeah Well, rollo, it's been a absolute blast having you on I'd love to have you on again sometime for the event Definitely And of course I look forward to meeting you later this year in florida at the 21st convention 2017 Excellent Do you have any final message for the guys attending? um No, just look forward to it And uh, like I said, the book will be available at the end of may and hopefully you'll have it and have read it by the time We get there in the end of september Fuck yeah, I'd love to get a copy as soon as possible, man. Definitely mean it to ask you that so for sure Okay, rollo. Thanks for coming on man. Yep any time Everyone, uh, make sure you visit rollo at the rational mail.com You can come you can actually meet him this year at the 21 convention 2017 He's given two talks You can get tickets to that event if you don't have him yet in the card at the top right hand of the video Or in the description or you can visit the 21 convention dot org Thanks guys. Thanks rollo, and I'll talk to you soon. See you then. Bye