 Good day, my lovely listeners. You are listening to The Forty Autie Podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive head-first into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalising tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello, all you auties out there. Welcome back to The Forty Autie Podcast with your host, Mr Thomas Henley from the Asperger's Grove channel. How are you doing today? Well, it was sunny and now it's very grey outside in the town of North Yorkshire, if it is a town, if you could call it a town. Today we're going to be talking about something that I think is probably one of the most talked about things, or at least the thing that people ask the most questions about, and that's improving your social skills, making friends, making relationships on the autistic spectrum. It's a very difficult thing to do, and I can attest to this. I've not always been the social butterfly that I am now, and I took a journey for about two or three years to get where I am today, writing about it, working on things, learning about psychology, learning about social interaction, and here I am today. We have another person who is also a very, very social butterfly. That doesn't make any sense. Adam, how are you doing? Doing very well. How are you? I'm all right. Not too bad. A bit of a slow day today to go get myself out of bed today. It was a bit of a tough time. I wasn't budging. Coffee usually solves that problem for me. Yeah, but then it also brings up the issue of getting downstairs as well, because that's something that's not going to happen for me. It needs to be right on my desk, ready to be drunk in the morning, but then of course it'll be cold by then, so it's a bit tough. It's a thermos, and someone will make your coffee for you. Yes, yeah. I could do that. I could order myself a personal barista and get it sent to me by the postman. I'm off the clock at the moment. Oh yeah, of course. Well, following with that, would you like to give everybody a little introduction into who you are and what you do? Sure. So my name is Adam Mohamed. I'm 22 years old, birthday next week, and I graduated the University of Manchester the same year as Tom. And since graduating last year, I have essentially been a man of two careers. So on one side of things, I am a cocktail and champagne bartender. And with the territory of serving people their champagne lunches, I'm also a fully trained barista. And the other half of that, actually using the degree that I spent four years to earn, I currently work for a company called EM Analytical, and I'm developing coronavirus testing kits. Very cool. That is a very good introduction. As you can probably tell, everyone out there, Adam is a very well worked man. He's, I think, in just after uni, he got that bartending job, didn't you? Yeah, so I think I so with the past two jobs that I've had, being champagne bartending and coronavirus testing kit maker, both of those jobs had the exact same introduction with the bar that I worked for was I was hired on the opening, which was a very chaotic environment, because no one had worked at that bar before because it was originally open. And the same thing with coronavirus. No one expected to need to make hundreds of thousands of testing kits. So both of those environments led themselves to a very hectic environment. But yeah, the bar job was July. Well, I think, basically, I thought that you would be the best person to to talk about social skills and stuff, because we think throughout the university experience, or at least for the last year of university, we were quite the party team, I guess. Yeah, you, me and Jack, we tore up fourth year. I think a barely a weekend went by without us going out somewhere on some crazy adventure. Indeed. And I think you and Jack were sort of more, when did you meet Jack? Was it sort of the first second year or something? Jack and I met in first year, because we both did biochemistry and we kind of sport each other around lectures. But then we properly became friends, I'd say about the beginning of second year. And then he went and he went and did a year aboard in Sweden during third year, kept in very good contact. Myself and a few friends actually went to Sweden that year to visit him. And then we became housemates in fourth year. Yeah, well, it was it was a very interesting time at university. It's, it's, I've never experienced that sort of group mentality have always been sort of the quiet. I wouldn't say lone wolf, because that sounds a little bit grandiose, but I've always been the quiet one on his own, sort of dipping in and out of social groups. And the group that we had was sort of Jack and, and you and some of the other housemates was probably one of one of the first groups that I actually felt sort of involved with. It wasn't really sure that there'd been times in my sort of secondary school and primary school where I'd been a part of groups, but I'd never felt a particular affiliation with them, if that made sense. Okay. So with what you said earlier about your social butterfly status being about two or three years old, was that when you started really developing your social skills? Yeah, well, it's I'd never really paid much attention to it. So I went through the entirety of secondary school, at least the sort of tail end of it, studying and working at stuff and, and also doing the taekwondo. So I'd never really had much opportunity to leave any energy to work on my social skills. It's only when I had a little bit of a dip in my, in my second year where I didn't really have as much energy to study, and that I started to sort of research, you know, look at YouTube videos on improving your charisma and all that kind of stuff and basically just taking apart conversations that I've had, or thoughts that I've had about how I may be perceiving things differently. I'm trying to use that to improve my social skills. It was quite a long and a long and very much a trial and error process. Yeah, because I think for me, it was a very similar journey, but maybe shifted back because I think when I first started to take an upturn in my social life was I think last year of sixth form. So I might have only been like a year off from you. So you started at the tail end of sixth one, that's when you started to get involved with social groups. Yeah, year 13 was so it was the year that I had my first girlfriend, I turned 18, started actually going to house parties, because everyone else was turning 18. I never had that you know, for 15th birthday party where you know, you try and sneak one of your dad's beers and pretend to be a baller. So I think I only started partying when I was allowed to drink. Yes, I think that that's something that we share that I was I was very much in tune with with sort of what I should and shouldn't do. And I thought, you know, I'm going to wait until I'm 18 to get involved in something because that seems to be the smartest way to go. Yeah. But I was never never sort of went to proper parties before sort of the 18 came around. I went to a few sort of garden parties, which were a bit sort of light and, you know, more of kind of a chat than a party party. But my 18th, I had a party party in the sort of hideout of venue and stuff. Oh, nice. Yeah. Well, it was a very sort of scattered party because there was a lot of sort of people from different groups that I was friends with. And then they sort of brought a few of their friends. And then, you know, there's sort of like little bubbles around the venue that people were gathering in. Navigating the social circles. That's that's one of the things that we learned from partying in fourth year is how to move between groups. Yeah, it's a difficult one. Especially if you don't have a lot of experience. And I think just sort of making your way into any sort of social circle is quite difficult. I think I think so we talk a little bit about the documentary before we get into sort of your experiences with autism and stuff. Yeah, of course. So yeah, just just for any listeners out there, we did meet in our time at university. We both did a life sciences like degree. So I did biomedical sciences. And what did you do, Adam? Biochemistry. Biochemistry, of course. And yeah, Adam and Jack were basically two of my closest friends in fourth year. We sort of did a lot of things in the day and then and the night and all that kind of stuff. One night, I think one particular night, I think we were doing some board game house party or something like that. And Ah, yes, the Game of Thrones risk evenings. Yes. But yeah, you took me to a side and you told me about you being autistic and stuff. And I think that there was sort of a funny revelation that I had because I was I always I thought that there was something a little bit different about you, but I wasn't fully able to put my finger on it. Jack actually made the exact same assessment. Yes. Yeah. So I think it was it was quite nice for me to hear it coming from someone who's obviously worked on their social skills as well, because most the people that I meet that are autistic aren't necessarily the most social people or at least they don't sort of get involved in the sort of party aspects of university. Yeah, I believe the exact nature of the of the evening. So I think it was you, me and Jack and then Phoebe, Helena and Katie. Yes, we're all playing the board game. And I think at the time you had also you started becoming outspoken about the fact that you're autistic, like I'm fairly certain you're you started to begin raising awareness and actually making that an active part of your life. And then I remember seeing that and thinking, Oh, well, you know, this is a guy who's clearly quite confident and open about these kinds of things. So I think one, that was just the evening where I decided, screw it, I'll tell him. Because I think I've become so used to being an autistic that no one noticed. The idea of telling someone was almost a spontaneous decision, because it's an aspect of myself that I'd almost let myself ignore. Yes. I think maybe it was like a month or two after I decided to sort of submit my puzzle for the for the documentary to the to the university. And I got in contact with a few people from around uni, a few support staff, someone from who shot the beat the BBC man, BBC Radio Manchester video. And I asked you whether you would like to be a part of it. And he said yes, of course. And I thought that because obviously there is a lot of contrasting personalities and opinions in the autistic community and in any community. I think your sort of your views and your mentality and experiences were very, very well in contrast with some of the other experiences that people were talking about. I thought I thought you made quite I think you made quite a statement in it. One thing that I was picking up on with the flow of the documentary is most of the other guests were talking about overcoming the struggles, the trials, the tribulations of being autistic, things like struggling with school. And then I remember just watching myself on television, essentially, because we have YouTube on the television, just laid back being like, oh, yeah, being autistic is great. Yeah, and I think I'm very much sort of in the middle. That makes sense. Like I'm not overly keen about making autism a sort of like a superpower in the public eye. Yeah. But I also have a lot of experiences with the sort of negative aspects being autistic. But I thought I thought that sort of your inclusion into the documentary made it more realistic, I guess, didn't you didn't just like, say all of the things that you think you think you should have said, it's more like your your opinion. And that was, I think, what was so sort of catching by your interviews. Yeah. But what was the the filming process like you? Like, have you ever talked about being autistic in public? I believe talking with you and Jack at my house was the first time that I'd spoken about being autistic publicly in at least a few years. I think one of the times that I remember telling anyone else was I believe when I was in year 12, so lower, lower sixth form. So essentially, my experience with help with being autistic, not to jump the question format or anything. But the way that autism was handled at my secondary school, the help was available. But no one ever came to you, you had to go and seek the help. So if you wanted help, it was available. But if you didn't want to help, you didn't have to have someone pulling you out of lessons. And from that, I knew how many autistics there were in my school, because when we started secondary school, they put us all in a room and were like, Hi, these are the services available to you, take them or leave them. And so one of my friends was talking about his mum who worked with autistics. And my friend in sixth form was like, I've never actually met an autistic. And I said to him, well, I'm one. And what was his response? His response was, Oh, really? Yes. And that was probably a learning curve for him to realise that autistics can just go into the radar like that. Yeah. Another time that I spoke about it was so I was diagnosed at the age of three years old. But my parents incredibly young. I was one of the lucky ones that was caught early. And I told you in the documentary that they actually thought that I had a hearing issue. Yes. Yeah, that's very common, I think. So I was diagnosed at three, but obviously, my mind wasn't fully formal at the time. So my parents actually sat me down at the age of 10, and explains to me that I was autistic. So those are the three times in my life where I can specifically remember talking about being autistic. Well, I guess now would be the fourth time. Yes. And the documentary as of Yeah. You have indeed. And it's going to be going out on the podcast. And it's going to be, I think the documentary has got about, I think about 4000 views last time that I checked it, which is amazing, which is awesome. And it's way is blowing out the water pretty much every other one of my videos that I put up on YouTube. Yeah. And yeah, like, like, how do you feel about that? How do you feel about the possibility of it being sort of a mainstream thing? I think I'm fairly comfortable with the idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I've almost hidden for a long time, because I made the necessary developments in my social skills. And then once I was comfortable with the my social abilities, I almost just wrote it off as like, right, don't have to think about that ever again. Yeah. But I like that it's come up again because I don't want to pretend to be a hero, but I would quite like the idea of any of the 4000 people that watch the documentary gaining something out of my input. Yes, I think that's that's something that every single interviewee shared. I think it's something that is important. It's important to give people an idea of what Asperges is or ASD one if you if you want to call that now. And also, I think we have a very large shortage of sort of role models and stuff for autistic people a lot of the sort of stuff that's put out by any sort of media head is generally about sort of the more low functioning side of the spectrum. So people who have a lot of impairments that make it so that they need sort of 24 hour support or a heavy amount of support and they don't really see they don't really see the other side to it, I guess, more the more high functioning side. That was actually my first ever introduction to autism was at the age of five, one of my friends in school, one of their cousins was severely autistic and needed 24 hour care. And then I think part of why I repressed telling anyone that I was autistic was because of that association. I didn't want anyone thinking that I needed 24 hour care. Yeah. But you know, it's a bad thought because there's nothing wrong with that. It was a preconceived notion that I had where I didn't want to be part of the group. Yeah, you didn't want to sort of be associated in that way. Yeah, I was very much trying to avoid judgment by having it be something that was well known. But I think the reason that I'm comfortable talking about it now is because I've essentially finished well, no one's ever finished learning. But I've completed the majority of my social and academic training. So as a now a fully formed adult that can hold relationships, make friends in any circumstance and have two careers. I'm now confident in people knowing that autistic because they know that I can do all those other things. Yeah, there is a lot of times sort of a preconceived notion that autistic people should be a certain way. Yeah, I mean, the typical sort of signs of autism, a lot of, I mean, in the Triad of Impairments, two of those are linked to sort of being able to communicate and make friends and form communicative relationships. So I think that sort of overarching idea of what autism is makes people like myself and you quite a spectacle for people. Yeah, I think I think it's it's always something that people are shocked about. Yeah, if I if I tell people that I am and I do I do do it a lot. But only if it comes up in in conversation, like, I'm not gonna just throw it in there. It's got to come up in conversation when it does. There's never been a time where it's put someone off talking to me, which I'm quite pleased about. It's very reassuring. It is, it is. But I think it's all it's all the way that you do it. Yeah. If you have those social skills to be able to communicate what you mean and the subtle nuances that then it's easier for people to develop a sort of a connection with you on the instant and see you're telling them that they're that you're autistic as more of a interest rather than a statement that they should treat you this way or do any of that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think part of the reason why I never told anyone was because I never told anyone in the first place. So I didn't know what reaction to expect him because I didn't know what reaction to expect I never told anyone. So breaking that cycle was part of what ended me up on this podcast. Indeed, breaking out of it. Yeah. And I am very happy to have you on today. So yeah, we are talking about building social skills today. Yes. And it is something that a lot of people struggle with. And of course, we have a lot of sort of commonalities in the in the social arena. But what was the process of working on your scope social skills like for you? Would you say that it was a lot of work independently? Or did you get a lot of help with it? I would say that most autistics tend to tend towards doing things themselves. The majority of the time. Well, I'd say let's explain it like this. I would separate it into three phases. Primary school, secondary school and university. Primary school, I went to primary school with the teachers knowing that I was autistic, because my diagnosis was that early. So I was put in a weekly group where we did social activities. This was things like spin a plate, and then whoever picks up first says something about themselves. Yeah, things like that group activities, which I'm not gonna lie, I absolutely hated. Spent my entire time in primary school, complaining about it to my mom. And isn't because this was between the ages of three and 10. So my parents hadn't told me I was autistic. And I was going to these weekly sessions dealing with kids that I didn't like in different years to me. And all I wanted to do is get out there and play with my train set. So I spent that span of time hating all the help that I was getting. But to be honest, looking back on it, there was a lot that was helpful. One of the techniques that I remember, and many autistics have been given this is you get given a sheet of paper with cartoon faces on it. And you have social stories. Yeah. And you have to write down the emotion that you think each face represents. And then you hand it back, you get told which ones run wrong, and then you learn that way. So learning nonverbal communication was one of my really, really big aspects. Then secondary school, as I mentioned earlier, I was introduced to secondary school, got plunked in a room with all the other autistics, and was told, here's the help, take it or leave it. And I took none of the help. I actively avoided going anywhere near that building, partly to repress anyone knowing that I was autistic, partly to actually get out on my own and start developing social skills in the field, as it were. And then secondary school being a seven year process, I made a group of friends. One of them was from my primary school, we moved to the same secondary school. And I built myself a network of friends and then finally started going out partying in sixth form. And then university was a complete reshift, because universities three or four years, and everyone does something different throughout each year, as you all know, from doing a year abroad. Yes. So I did an integrated masters where I spent all four years in Manchester. So I actually benefited from staying in Manchester for the all four years, because some people did three years, then graduated. Some people did two years, a university then came back in fourth year. Some people staggered their degrees and took some time off. So I think part of what helped me in that area was that I stayed in the same place for four years. So I could essentially watch people come and go, whilst my life didn't necessarily change all that much. So creating an environment of stability, and operating outwards was what helped me at university. That's brilliant. Well, let's say, in terms of primary school for me, I didn't know that I was autistic until I was about 10 years old. Is that when you had the diagnosis? Yeah, it was actually. I was told told then as well. So we're both told at the age of 10. But prior to that, I wasn't given any support for it because obviously it wasn't something that wasn't something that they knew about. So they couldn't really give me any sort of social training or treatment or whatever like that. I never really went to any sort of formal things that would help me with my social skills. It was all, as you said, you know, sort of getting into secondary school, a place that you can go to, you know, like we had this thing called the bridge, which basically is a place for people to to go to, like who have special needs and anything like that. But it's also a place that very emotional and difficult people go to as well. Yeah. And that was basically for me just a safe haven. So I had this little corner, you know, with, I think, three or four comfy chairs that I could just sit in and, you know, pull a chair over my head just to chill out if I was finding my time at school a little bit hard. Okay. But none of the none of the actual sort of help or support really came in on the autism side of things. It was more sort of mental health at that age for me. Okay. But yeah, I was I was definitely put out in the world. Like my mum made a lot of efforts to get me out doors and different social groups, you know, like the typical cubs and beavers and all of that, you know, scouts. What did all that kind of stuff did a lot of sports, went to different clubs and all that kind of stuff. I was a very sociable child, but I was never given that sort of social instruction. Okay. And the only place that I was giving it was when I asked my parents about it when I asked my mum about it. That's when I start I made adjustments to how I communicated, but it wasn't to the degree of, you know, like swim hands you sheet of paper and ask you to to send what emotion this person is feeling. It was never sort of formal training. If that makes sense. Alright, yeah, because I was essentially given pieces of paper to learn how to socially communicate, which honestly was probably the best method for me at the time. So we just said that you and I have almost had opposite like experiences because I has all the help available to me and hated taking it. Whereas you didn't didn't have as much support. Yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, I think you could say that. I don't know if I if I was in sort of your situation that I would want it as well. Like, it's difficult because I think because we are so tend to be so strong minded and opinionated, it can be difficult for people to to feel respected by people. And what we need, I found that I need to feel some level of respect from the person who's helping me in order for me to take it on or else it's just like some asshole that's preaching it. Yeah, that's what it felt like. Yeah, in the mental health side of things, it did. So I can imagine that it would be something similar. But we did both get that both get told at 10 years old. So it's at least we have we have that commonality. The difference being I was just catching up with everyone else's information whereas in yours, it was everyone finding out at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, there were always parts of me that were very autistic when I was a kid, you know, tons of sort of spinning around in the sport and all that. I love doing that. In terms of the actual pointer, which I started to work on my social skills, it was it was very much me sort of sat in my bedroom, watching videos on sort of charisma and body language and facial expressions, and writing about it and trying to make sort of make sure that I action those in the world and see what happens, sort of like a trial and error process. And when something went wrong, or I felt a bit uneasy about a situation, then I would go back to the drawing board, right about the experience and try and sort of dissect what went wrong. It was a very labor intensive process. Yeah, it was. I think I after about a year of doing that, I think I was at the point where I had enough confidence to go out and make friendships. But and that was sort of during during Thailand. And that environment in Thailand was very social heavy. You know, we're living in the same house, we're the only British red residents for miles. So it was it was an interesting it was quite intense at points, because I was so used to sort of being on my own. But after a while, I saw I felt a lot more comfortable. I think I'd learned a lot more about myself after, you know, being in that social arena. Obviously, there are things that I had to iron out. And I still think that I've got some things to work on. But in general, as you've said, I feel like I can develop relationships and friendships to a good enough degree now that I that I it wouldn't be much of a problem for me. Yeah. Would you say that in your progression? Which was the more important factor? Was it learning about other people or learning about yourself? I think that the both important. I think the crossover between myself and other people is where the the useful stuff came. It was it was more of like, okay, right, let me look at my my perspective. These are the things that could be wrong. These are the things that could be right. And I want to keep in myself. And then analyze people's reactions and say, you know, sort of make sure that I've got enough data to go by. So that I know that what I'm doing is wrong or right. And then sort of blending it in and trying to find the middle ground between those those pieces. Yeah, it's it is it is a very difficult thing. I think nowadays, I'm more into the realm of trying to figure out what my values and important opinions are so that I can construct myself the way that I want to. It's like I sort of built myself a new person and then jumped into it. Okay, you're like a Iron Man suit. Yeah, a social Iron Man suit. That's what it was. I did feel a bit awkward and a bit weird for a while. Jumping to that suit. But no, there's something that I said, something I heard was like, fake it till you make it. And that's basically what I did. But I think, I think it's always important to because that the real sort of masters in fitting in and doing it naturally, or at least, convincingly, or girls, like girls are a lot a lot better to copy facial expressions and things like that. So it's, it's a bit weird because from from a guy's perspective, it's usually is generally we will quite quiet, quite sort of confident and direct and very mission orientated. Yeah, with girls, it's like, it's more of they go through secondary school and and the school system and at work, feeling sort of not themselves sort of constructing this personality that isn't themselves. Yeah. And that can be quite uncomfortable for them. So there are some like differences between the genders that are found. One thing, particularly with university, the first thing that I learned with regards to, because with Fresherswick, what would you say was your experience with Fresherswick? Because for me, I didn't like the idea of going out every single night and running around with people that I didn't know, not having a conversation with anyone, because you always always went to clubs. And ladies were actually the best people to learn from. Because a, they dance way better than guys. And b, they always moving groups, they always make sure someone's got a left home. Yeah, stuff like that. Like so how would you find was your Fresherswick experience with with women being the the senseis? Yeah, most of the my friends up until that point, or at least most of my good friends were female. So I definitely found myself going to the clubs and stuff with other females. Like it was just, it wasn't like a thing where I wanted to, you know, go out on the game or anything like that. It was just I wanted to go out and dance. And I felt most comfortable around girls, I think. Because I do get what you mean they do tend to be much more group orientated. Whereas with guys that can just disappear. Yeah, man, a guy will happily get himself home from a club and he'll also happily jump headfirst into a group of women. Like, yes. And that was one thing that definitely turned me off the idea of being one of those guys that goes clubbing like that. Yeah, is it just it just seemed a tad mindless. It just I don't know it just it never got me as something that I wanted to do. I wasn't big into the sort of, you know, make a show kind of thing. And then like, it was more, I want to go out and have a good experience with people that I like, and hopefully build connections with them. That was my sort of mentality during those times. Yeah, so then obviously, sorry, sorry. Yes, that's probably like the way like we spent the majority of fourth year being social butterflies in a very new group. But the way we were partying, it wasn't clubs. Usually it was music events. It was house parties. It was environments where you can actually talk to people. Yeah, I found that to be more enjoyable. I don't like that sort of awkwardness where you want to talk to somebody and sort of get to know them but you can't because the music's too loud and too many people around and you know, it's it's difficult one, isn't it? That's that's what actually confuses me about clubbing. And whenever people go to clubs to pull. And it's like, how do you do that? You can barely get a word in. And whenever it comes to whenever I do go to a club, I'll go in, I'll dance and then I'll usually spend a fair bit of time either in the smoking area or the bar so that I can get, you know, some personal space and some some breathing area. Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same. I think that there was there was a key moment where we went to this sort of house party and we weren't expecting it to be so absolutely packed and crazy. So I think I went up to you and said, Adam, are you all right? Because I want to go sun in the kitchen. You were like, Yep, let's go to the kitchen. That sounds like something we would do. Yeah, I think I think we both wanted a little bit of break from all the shoulder barging and pushing and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, shot shot. That's one of the things that really turns me up about clubs is even if you are in a nice circle with people that you're like and you've got and there's a song that you enjoy, there's always either some drunk guy barging past you because he's about to go to the toilet, or a bouncer hovering or someone trying to sell you a shot for a fiber. It's it's not a very I didn't find a lot of utility in going out. I think it's just I like to go places where I like the music, but I'd only go there to dance and have and have the music. Like it was it's not really a sort of I wouldn't go there with people that I wanted to get to know better. Yeah, it would be with people that I already knew very well. In order for me to sort of feel comfortable with going out to it because it's a different social environment, isn't it? Yeah, the rules that apply in sort of like the party atmosphere are completely different to sort of a one on one conversation or three people or, you know, going up to you know, you know, people chilling on like the grass or something like it's very different. And I think a lot of autistic people find social situations quite sort of terrifying, especially if they haven't been in those situations before. Because there isn't sort of a standard social rule for every situation. And that's what's difficult. So work out. I think a lot of the the sort of the growing aspects for me were getting good in a certain social environment like a sports club, transferring it to a different one like a like a house party or chat over a coffee, like there's the whole social arena is completely different in that respect. And we do have a big problem of isolation and loneliness in the autistic community. It's something that I've seen a lot on the YouTube channel, a lot of people messaging and telling me that they just really don't know where to start. So what do you recommend to those people? Like what what do you think they should start doing to improve in their social skills? For a start. So this is advice that I would give to autistic people and or non non autistic people is when you're making friends on the small scale, it should be based on something you enjoy. As you said, with like hanging out with someone one on one over a coffee in a park in the sun, you only enjoy those kinds of things when it's with a person that you really really like. And most people tend to have most people with that kind of relationship tend to have common interests such as you and me, we would happily talk for hours and hours. I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast. But you and I have plenty of common interests, such as mental health, such as science, such as music, martial arts. And I'd say my advice for an autistic person that's looking to branch out and develop their social skills is firstly, figure out what you're interested in. If you're interested in music, art, books, film, whatever it is. And then find an environment where you can meet a person that shares one of those interests. And then I'd say work at it friendship by friendship. And then a few years down the line, you'll be at house parties, be in the life of the environment. I think that that's always a good place to start somewhere that where the the topic of conversation is common. So I found that sports clubs and stuff are the best for me because it gives me a chance to you know, you've got sort of a set sheet of things that you can ask, you know, it's a lot less sort of out in the open. It's not like you're walking up to someone and just saying hi and trying to start a conversation. It's they're there to do something that they're interested in. And you also find that interesting. Yeah. So say, hypothetically, you were a Taekwondo training session. And an autistic person say was in their first few sessions. It's a lot smoother of a way to initiate a conversation. To say, teach them how to hold their form correctly, or how to pivot their hips when throwing a kick or something like that. It's a lot more natural to start a conversation that way than say, going into an environment that you don't know with people that you don't know with no common interest. Because that is when the task of meeting new people and improving social skills seems like such a daunting task, especially when you're at the beginning of your progression. Yeah, I think one thing that is quite important that I suppose one thing that I struggled with is graded intimacy. So like I found that the the best way to sort of get into a place where you can make friends is by sort of making those those initial sort of boring, you know, quick questions around who they are and what they do and stuff like that. But also just throwing comments out there just making sure that people know that you're you're there rather than just going full front and saying, hey, do you want to be friends? Do you want to come to this and this and this and this? Yeah, I think you've got to you've got to always err on the side of placing relaxation at the most important thing and failing being able to talk to people. Just focus on what you're there to do. And if an opportunity arises that you can have a little bit of a conversation with someone, then take that opportunity and then leave it a little bit and then take it again and and chat to people and you can get to know people. And then, as you said, at some point, you'll get invitations to do stuff. And I think that and just learning to chill out and relax and not putting too many expectations on yourself for the first instant is important. I think one of yourself. Yeah, I think one of the things that would help with that is what you said earlier about learning who you are and understanding yourself because one thing that takes the pressure off of making friends is being completely happy with yourself. Because one thing that plenty of autistics have is enjoying time by themselves. I think many of us would happily kill a whole day doing just one task. I think the last weekend I had us just spend the whole day in the sun reading a book. So I think being happy with yourself and knowing who you are is a good grounding point to not be let down if someone doesn't reciprocate your friendship. Yeah, I think definitely there is a lot of feelings of let down and rejection I guess with autistic people first trying to make attempts to make friends and all of that. I think yeah definitely airing on the side of taking it slow and you know if you have a bad bad conversation with someone you don't really feel like they get you or anything then go talk to someone else or go put yourself in a space where there are other people other than that person and see if you have any connection with those. I think also I think as a good starting point if you really if they're really struggling is to try and find some groups that are made and run by autistic people. That is a good commonality between people it's easy to talk about experiences with autism because it's obviously so ingrained in you and it's something that not everybody has and it's a very minority of people so having some other people to support you in your journey of improving your social skills is quite important I think. Okay because I have never been to any autistic gatherings as an adult have you encountered that and felt that it was really beneficial for you? I've never really gone to any of those groups it's always been Taekwondo classes that really sort of introduced me to socializing with people. But I think that if I did have that opportunity to have a community of people around me that were autistic or at least you know like a small group it would help a lot with those times where you just feel a little bit like an alien and you're not really sure what to do and feel sad and a bit lonely like I think now that I have sort of networked on social media sites and got in contact with other autistic people it makes it makes things a little bit easier because I've always got someone to go to who understands me completely or at least understands me to a large degree and I think I would have liked that if you know if there was one at university at the time. Yeah because going to a support group that's one of those things that would have never naturally occurred to me. Being a headstrong individual I always had the idea of figuring it out myself but I'm glad that you mentioned that because I would have happily just forgotten to mention that support groups exist. I think it's never a bad shout to go along to them. You have to realize that there will be people there who also don't have very good social skills so you have to think of it in a tested test in the waters kind of thing it's just like any other social arena it's just that you've got something that you can really talk about and obviously within support groups you have chance to introduce yourself and I think those that sort of structure to it can be quite helpful. Reading about social skills and and sort of researching it have been quite beneficial for me and especially writing about my experiences with myself and people and I guess there is to some extent a line where I've learned as much as I feel like I need to move on to the next stage and then I sort of have to action it in the world and sort of test the waters I guess which I suppose is a little bit different to your approach where you you've sort of had that support when you're a little bit younger and then your way of improving your social skills was sort of going out there and just putting yourself in there and both of them have a lot of holding I think both of them are very both of those ways of going about improving your social skills are important and they can always work for people but everyone's an individual you know. Oh yeah everyone's everyone will figure out their own way of developing their social skills. You just have to work on it and believe that it will happen. One thing that really helped me solidify my social skills as an adult I would by no means recommend this as advice but being a bartender has been one of the things that has really solidified my social skills because with bars you have people come up order a drink it's a very short interaction and you'll cycle through several several people and you know there are plenty of bartenders that have like their joke that they use whenever a new customer comes up to the bar so obviously being a bartender is a job that is very socially demanding so I would not recommend this for anyone that isn't already most of the way there to their social progression but even if you're like say you're in a bar watching how other people act in bars is very educational. It's like watching the nature documentary. Oh yeah because alcohol being a substance that reduces inhibition you get to see how people will act under true freedom. Yes yeah so it's easier I actually enjoy talking to drunk people I think they're a lot easier to talk to. Do you think that's maybe part of why you and I started going to parties as we described when alcohol was something that could be brought into the mix legally? To some extent yeah I think nowadays now that I'm a bit older I air on the side of caution with that I try to go to places and not drink because it's it's good to have the experience of interacting in in sort of a normal setting. I think parties are sort of the a natural progression to things I know I think if people feel comfortable with the environment or the people around you just having having one of those two stable sources is quite an important thing going to going to a house that you know or having a house party yourself maybe don't do that. Even just if I'm going out somewhere like a pub or something it's if I don't know the pub it's nice to know someone that's going with me and vice versa if I know the pub I'll be more likely to feel more comfortable with talking to new people. I think you might have mentioned that a little bit back like you said that finding that source of stability is quite important to work from work out from it. Yeah something familiar to keep you grounded. I think that's that's a very important point it's definitely something that can help you if you do find a lot find yourself with a lot of social anxiety or general anxiety it's it can be quite a difficult thing new stuff I suppose new situations but you need to be exposed to it in order for you to learn. So what parts of social skills do you think will never improve like what can't you work on and what can you work on? What can't I work on? My natural inclination is just to respond where I can work on anything but I would say one of the areas that I have tried to work on but haven't really made lots and lots of progress with is I'm a little bit stubborn and I'm a little bit impulsive which basically means I'll I'm the kind of person that will wake up one day and go I'm going to spend four hours making a meal and then just go do it like because I've woken up with that idea I'll then want to carry it through. Yes. Because why shouldn't I? So yeah I think being spontaneous and a little bit headstrong there are two aspects that I tend to not work on because to an extent they've actually benefited me in some areas of life with being a bit stubborn. The difference between stubborn and determined is essentially just the difference between the environment you're in. If you've got an idea in your head and no one else agrees you're stubborn if you push through with it and everyone likes it you're determined. And the spontaneous like the impulsive side of my mind the spontaneity it's really helpful for my creative outlets such as science, bartending, martial arts. The impulsive nature of my mind has produced a lot more good than it has bad but I'd say that those are the two areas that I don't think I'll make a lot of progress when in the next five years. Yeah. In terms of things that I don't think I can work on I think there's there are a few things that sort of float around in my head. I can never naturally put myself in someone's shoes so it's always got to be if someone tells me something that's important and someone that's close to me I can't always respond to that with I can't easily deal with that situation on the spot it's more of a thing that I have to go away from the situation think about it and then come back in and then tell them my views. So it's always been a reflective period I don't think I'm ever gonna remove that reflective period. Okay. And I guess yeah I you know sort of competing in Taekwondo and stuff and I guess I would I would say that I'm a little bit headstrong in general but you know it always it always falls upon you to analyse and pick up on things that that just have no chance of changing or at least a very very slim chance of changing in order for you to like know what you need to do if that makes sense or just around it. Yeah. Also like with these being fundamental aspects of our personalities to an extent they're not the kind of things that you want to change because that would be changing entirely who you are and whilst we want to progress you don't want to lose yourself. And I think you do need to stay true to yourself whether that's an idea in your head of where you want what you want to be or what people are not considered to be sort of like your natural personality yeah just I think I think that the thing that I struggle the most with I think that's that's never gonna change is that that period of time where you don't spend a lot of time socialising like and then coming back into the social arena I think it's always a bit of a shock to the system for me. Okay. It's not something that I could just easily slip into it something that I have to work myself up with you know it's I guess you could call it sort of exposure you know if you don't have enough exposure to the social environment for a while it's gonna wane a little bit when you when you get back in. Yeah it's almost like returning to the gym for the first time in a while. Yeah yeah exactly you've got you've got to flex those social muscles and you've also got to get an idea of which people in that environment are people that you want to talk to more or interact with more. I think also that there are the general things like you can't really control the level of anxiety that you feel in situations it's more you've got a good feel for how anxious you may be for the first an hour or two with me going into a social environment my anxiety is probably at its highest but then after a while you start to feel a little bit more comfortable in the atmosphere but then again that that's another way of looking at it you know another way of adapting around things that you you can't really control. Yeah. And also eye contact like you can work on your eye contact but it's always gonna be it's always gonna be as uncomfortable. I think you know like with that progression it's with eye contact particularly with job interviews for my university interview my body language was actually noted as one of my good points and I was actually surprised at that. You've got very good body language. And I think the the take home message from the progression with things like fake it till you make it and if you don't use it you lose it it's more thick these things will appear forced at the start and you've just got to do them until they become second nature because eye contact was something that I really really tried focusing on and after eight weeks of lockdown where the only person that I had to look at was my own girlfriend. Looking someone in the eyes is actually something that I've had to retrain myself since I've started my new job. Yeah. Exposure isn't it? It's getting getting used to the incomfortabilities that come with being autistic I guess. And I think it's it is always there's a lot of sort of media related things and things going around in the autistic community about this thing called masking which is basically as is described as sort of putting on a personality for people putting on sort of a mask to be honest I think of course if you if you've been doing that all your life with people that you're close to then that's going to impact your mental health a lot because you're not going to feel like the person that your friends like is actually you. Yeah. I think you can it's you can always go back to your roots like the first time that I meet someone yeah I probably put on a lot of body language and facial expressions and use a lot of the things that I've learned but after a while of getting to know them and they've built a connection with me then I start to sort of be more comfortable in and show them a bit more of my personality. I think it's there's a line between using it as a life philosophy for every single situation ever and using it wisely for like things like job interviews and stuff. Yeah please use responsibly because masking is definitely not something exclusive to autistics I mean the the aspect of putting on a front that is something that you see throughout society I mean especially with with my bartending job I was bartending in Selfridges in the Traffin Center in the middle of Handbag Central and the number like the people that I was working around were like handbag salesmen for Louis Vuitton menswear salesmen for all same stuff like that. These people's jobs is putting on a mask and trying to sell people high-end merchandise. Yeah and when it comes to like a first date in the like in the dating community I've never seen a first date where someone was like a hundred percent honest on the first date. Yeah you know there's levels of intimacy and I think just as conversation gets more intimate not in that way of course but then things change you know. I thought that like you at one point that telling people that I was autistic and showing people my oddities would be something that they wouldn't want to deal with or something that they they think was repulsive about me but you know as you get older as you start to enter the world of adults you'll find of course you'll find assholes like they're everywhere but you'll also find people that you can connect with and the right people will stick by you despite you know the sort of differences that you may exhibit and to be honest I think it adds to people's charm as well like the world can be a boring place having a bit of differences is keen it's good but brilliant. I think I've got through pretty much all of the questions that I wanted to get through which is very good. Would you like to give us three main points or three main things that you want people to take away from the podcast? Yeah I think first one would definitely be as you and I are examples of being autistic is absolutely no limitation on what you can do in this world it does not prevent you from doing anything that you put your mind to. Number two would be obviously with what we've talked about would say going to social gatherings making friends my second takeaway would be always remember to enjoy yourself because if that's not there then you'll just be making so say if you make friends and you don't enjoy hanging around any of them you've essentially just wasted your time and effort so always remember to enjoy yourself and let's see take home point number three is probably with the with the advice that we've generally covered is when it comes to making friends focus on what you enjoy about hanging out together and then form the friendship from there. Brilliant thank you very much for those and we've got a last little question for you which is a very open question and you can answer in any way that you wish what does autism mean to you Adam? What does autism mean to me? Autism to me represents a challenge that I've faced in my younger years it's something that I was born with and something that I've spent a lot of effort trying to get past and so autism for me represents the ability to do anything that I set my mind to because you know by all intents and purposes I was born autistic I shouldn't be as selfish as I am and the fact that I made that progression it means that I overcame that challenge. Yes I think that your response to that is very very different to a lot of people's response to that and yeah what was the other responses? A lot of it's about sort of being different and and all that kind of stuff but I suppose you've you've taken more of the angle of pulling up the deficits of it which I think it is important to highlight that it does make things difficult like I think that in my view there are a lot of positives to it I think there are a lot of good things about being autistic. The high IQ really is nice. It's average or above average so a slightly increased but I think it does make us more analytical and logical which I think is always a benefit with these mindless people around these days. It's helpful if it's within the parameters that we're comfortable with. Definitely definitely cool very good we've finished all of the questions would you like to give out any links that you want to share or any social stuff like completely up to you you don't have to if you don't want to. To be honest I'm not a very social media guy I have Facebook because I have to and to be honest being a bartender without with no Instagram account it's probably hurt my career more than anything but I do not have any links to give out. My only thing to say to the people who listen to this is stay home wash your hands social isolated social distance sorry. Do exactly the opposite of what we've been telling you this whole podcast. Well that's the thing like for the time being take none of our advice and stay home away from everyone. Matt's coming from someone who is working on the front lines to improve the lives of people around the world in this not around the world in the UK in this crisis and thank you very much Adam for providing us with these testing kits and I think what you're doing is really great. Doing the Lord's work that doesn't exist. If anybody has any questions for you or they want to they want to ask you anything would they be all right in sort of contacting me and I can sort of send you them over. Would that be good? Yeah sure you can you can hand out my email address if you want. Well can I hand out your email address if you want or I can sort of hand out mine and then send you them if you don't want to give it out publicly. Oh yeah good point sorry yeah contacting you first would be a good idea. Yes cool. You can contact me at aspergysgrove at gmail.com You can send any messages that you have for Adam over there any questions and if you want to be on the 4040 podcast if you want to be on the 4040 podcast you can always contact me on either my email or my social medias they're all at aspergysgrove I'm very easy to find so if you got any questions if you want to be on the podcast just send me a message over and I'll try and get back to you as soon as possible. You can find other parts of my work on various different sites of course the social medias but primarily the youtube channel aspergysgrove which I make videos on autism and mental health pretty much more of a concise and one-way version of this podcast I guess I think there's a lot of interesting videos on building social skills that would be very useful if you're trying to sort of build up your social skills and stuff because I know it can be quite difficult. So yeah go over there if you want to check it out and of course big thing that will come here to sort of rep and stuff the documentary aspergys in society you can view it on youtube or you can visit the web page I believe it's aspergyssociety.com Very easy to find so I would be much appreciated if you came on had a little watch watch Adam's interviews of course thank you very much for coming on to the podcast today I really appreciate it have you enjoyed your it's been a pleasure you've you've enjoyed it I'm very glad yes but honestly like it's been a podcast recording but it's actually been quite a nice catch-up of course yeah it's always nice to have a little bit of social communication in these dark times so another little link in there stay safe everybody as I said as Adam said actually wash your hands keep socially distancing don't go out and do any crazy stupid stuff and infect more people even if you think you're all right here's a definite parting word if you're wearing a mask put it over your nose have a good day and I'll see you in the next episode of the 40-odd podcast see you later bye wow you're the first person to actually say bye after I said bye thank you very much for that no one decided they wanted to everyone was like I'll just fight into the background yes problem is I don't know when to stop I don't know I'd stop these recordings let's stop it now see you later guys bye