 Okay, so I'd like to welcome everybody to this camp inter training session about the community engagement model that is used by camp contour lines in Guatemala. I'm very lucky to be joined by Sean, who is the coordinator of this camp and has had a lot of success with engaging people to restore their land through agroforestry. And he's going to share with us today as to how he does this, what his community engagement model is. So over to you, Sean. That's quick. So, well, yeah, thanks Ash. I'm pretty excited to do this actually. I don't always have a cheesy grin on my face is just because I'm excited. And because it's actually something that so Tommy works with us as well and counterlines and something we've wanted for a long time to, to get out there to share. So thanks to, to you Ash and to your seat for the for this platform to do so, and providing other camp leaders members of the movement and fighter staying correctly recording it also to put up on the website for for the general audience, anyone interested in the project. Yeah, hopefully after editing out all the stupid things I say which found to happen. So hopefully you got a team of editors standing by. We'll also put it up on our website. contourlines.org where you can also go to learn more about us. Also apply for grants to plant your own projects. Hopefully probably not receive a grant. It's mostly a trick to get information from people. If you present a compelling case, maybe we'll get a grant. If you pay attention to what we're about to explain, I'll be able to tell and that'll increase your chances. So right to the two things I'm going to answer two questions today. One is, where can we find land to restore. And the other is, once you've found that lands, how do you go about working with people to restore the land. You're going to have to work with people. I was used to be pretty shaggy and my, my youth didn't really, I thought I could just, you know, go out and live in the woods. But now I'm seeing that it's not the case. It's a, you have to work with people in order to do this work. So those are the two questions I'll answer. And we'll first, both of those questions are kind of asked under under a set of assumptions, which will clarify make sure we're all on the same page. So the first assumption is that we need to restore ecosystems. So there's degradation around the world, thanks in large part to, to humans to us and our ancestors, and to have those ecosystems become healthy again, and the people living in those ecosystems to be healthy as populations. That's a noble goal that we should be striving for. And so, and we also have that moral responsibility. One could argue to do so. So we have the responsibility. The other assumption here is that top of the responsibility we also have the ability to do so humans like no other species we can make massive impacts on the land, we can distribute seed. We can remove invasive species, we can introduce beneficial species can move earth, we can accelerate succession by chopping and dropping. People talk about ecosystem engineers and it's usually the example is the beaver, you know, because they make them and it affects the landscape. There's also a cool video about how wolves, things called wolves, how wolves change rivers. It's an example. I think humans, by far, we are the ecosystem engineers, we shape the planet. And I think if we decided collectively that we're going to restore ecosystems. It would happen immediately. And I think on the bright side, I think we're moving in that direction and I think we're going to see that in our lifetime, like a major shift to do this. So the assumptions that before we get into the details. We just have that established that we must restore ecosystems, and we can restore ecosystems. So with, with those kind of agreed upon. We'll answer the two questions. So the first one is, find land to restore. So this varies obviously for depending on the person. One that I recommend, especially the young folks who are able to is travel and volunteer. So I did that before settling down in here in Guatemala where I work. For about two and a half years, 35 farms around the world as a traveling volunteer. That's actually how I met Tommy. He went as a volunteer to work on his farm. And we've worked together ever since. But that's that's very recommended. I know it's not for everyone you got to have the helps if you're young and you don't have like a house, a mortgage family, full time job helps to have a little white privilege you know to be able to travel for a while without needing But it's possible and I highly recommend that. So I use a lot. Woof. It's called WWF where you can look up farms based on certain criteria or on location and then go there and work. There's others work away. There's help x is a few others. And also now we have ecosystem restoration camps. We didn't have it back when I started but you can go on there and find places to go places to visit. So I think that's a great strategy. I think you got to get out there and and see where you can work where where that work is needed and where it's possible. I would say there's a like a side note to that. Like what are what are we looking for when we're looking to do this work this ecosystem restoration. So I think the concept to have in mind is land use land use. So we have a tendency to maybe more on the academic side to only focus on the the ecological side of this. You know we want to prove biodiversity you want to reforest. All that is great but it gets to the extreme where, you know, let's fence off an area and kick people out to have conservation. And that would be sort of the conventional conservation, which has its share of faults. And then on the other side there's folks who only care about the human aspect, like the anthropological side oh let's help the poor. But I think if you focus on land use. What that is is it's basically the interface between humans and nature. So you're looking into account the ecological and the economic and that's land use. So you just look around and obviously rural rural areas we're talking because urban areas are obviously residential commercial use, but if you look in the rural areas it's you know what are how are people using the land. Is it in forest still is it been clear cut for pasture. Most of the communities where we work here in Guatemala it's slash and burn. So cut the forest burn it and plant corn. So that's the that's the land use and that's what you really need to keep in mind when you're looking for a place to work. It's how is the land use. Also, if you're not afraid of being accused of being a communist. You also have to take into account the distribution of the land is it owned by you know one wealthy person are there communities that all have their own land access. That's another important. So for example in Livingston, the land uses the slash and burn, and the communities fortunately have access to land. Most families have 1015 hectares per family, which is in slash and burn. So that's the land use. So then you got to develop a plan like what's, well first what's the problem with the land use in the case of slash and burn it's most destructive ecologically, and it's not at all beneficial economically. So that means the family food, but beyond that there's no economic opportunity. And it's because you're selling you're selling a crop that has very low value and competition with industrial corn imported from the US. So economically, it's also not a, it's not a great system. So the alternative so then you have to think like what's an alternative system. In our case we do mostly food forests we call it which are agroforestry systems, rows of fruit trees and legume trees planted on contour. I'll give a little details. I thought it would be an intro but so we have 40 communities now where we work around the country. Most of them are in Livingston, Guatemala, which is the Caribbean coast. That's where we, we work, that's where we started and have the most work done brought to about 700 of these sites of the agroforestry sites with about 700 families. And that grows exponentially in terms of funding started off doing a crowdfunding campaign, just asking mostly friends and family, mostly using that white privilege I referred to to get that first, those first projects funded. And then from there, all these, these strategies that we're about to teach it just expands, we're expanding exponentially. Likewise with the funding. We're at the point now where we actually have to turn down certain supporters, we have to be selected with who we accept funds from. So that's a bit, that's a bit of the stats of where we are. But yeah, back to land use and finding land to work. So developing a strategy that that meets those, those criteria of one, restoring ecosystems, which is what we're here for. And that takes into account the human element that economics. So these systems in order to get people to adopt them they have to be economically feasible. They have to bring a profit they have to provide human needs, they food fuel fiber, all that stuff. They have to take those two things new account. And I think we found that with in Livingston with the food forest model. It's, it's good for the ecosystem. We do erosion control erosion control structures on contour plants with legume trees, organic, so that it helps the ecosystem, but also these fruit tree harvests and with the value adding and with the agritourism component, and with what we're hoping to get is carbon credits and other ecosystem service payments. It brings income, it's more, it's a more valuable, a more profit creating use of the land compared to slash and burn. So the land and develop a model that works, or a model that restores land and helps the people that live there. That's, that's the first question how to find how to find where to work. So the second question is how to work with people. Because unless you're very very rich and can buy lots of land and then just pay the people to do it. You have to work with people on the land. And I think, maybe not all of you can do that first recommendation which is, you know, it's going to even travel volunteer on farms. But maybe you're more based and you're more rooted on a certain piece of land, you know, you have family of might have a house. So in that case, it's looking to your neighbors you got to work with your neighbors and help them restore the land. So in either case, that's the second question and that's the main thing I'm going to focus on now is, is how to work with people to to restore land. So I've broken it down into five concepts like five strategies, you could say, that that are sort of the fundamental ideas behind our model. Well, first of all, we call it the community engagement model because mostly we work with communities like rural villages here in Guatemala. But we can really expand that to be we call it a stakeholder engagement model, because with some adaption of course it can be applied to any other type of situation. So we've worked with like women's associations, private landowners groups of private landowners cooperatives we're doing projects now through. And artisans cooperative and 10. We're helping other nonprofits apply the models. So it doesn't have to be with a village, it can be with, you know, anyone on the land. First of all, alright so the five strategies. So the first one mistakes will be made mistakes will be made. So any, anything English teachers and the audience, any grammar Nazis out there, you might take an issue with that sentence mistakes will be made. So it's, it's passive it's passive voice it's called, which is kind of an Orwellian way of talking it's usually not recommended. It's like, like a politician trying to avoid faults for something. I made who made it because what it does is it leaves out the subject of the sentence, you know, I made a mistake or you made a mistake. But I did that on purpose for the sake here. It's mistakes will be made. It's passive for a reason. So who's going to make it. Well, probably you'll make some, but there's also thousands of people before you doing this work who have already made them. Right here. That's sort of the basis of this book, two ears of corn by Roland bunch. So you have to read this. If you're doing any kind of community development work agriculture development. You'd be surprised I've heard people say like I've never heard of it. Don't want to read it. It's ridiculous. You should go home because you're probably doing more harm than good. Read the book. So the premise behind it is so Roland bunch worked for organization called world neighbors that did agriculture development work in developing countries like Asia Latin America, Africa, for about 40 years since the 70s I believe. And it's basically a survey a summary of all these projects, you know what works what doesn't. And the premise of that, it's kind of a sad historical fact is that most of this type of work. So we're calling it ecosystem restoration, but it could also be agriculture development. But working with people to work on the land. The majority of that work historically fails for various reasons. A lot of money. Go home and stuff's worse often before, and the people that they're supposed to be helping are left and bittered and not accepting a future nonprofits. That's why I can make things worse. So this book is a it's like the Bible of this type of work. If you want to go work with people to restore land you have to read this. I read I was about a year into the work before I even heard of it. And man when I read it it was every sentence is like, it's either like, like yes I got that one. Or damn I wish I read that sooner. But um, yeah it has, you have to read it. So that's so mistakes will be made they've made lots of them over decades. And you can learn from that that's a powerful thing that's a powerful thing is all that knowledge is here. If you look if you think of a mistake. It's a good thing because you're learning. You're trying to do something, and then you're improving it through that mistake. But why not just have learned it all from them. So I made I could share tons of examples of mistakes we've made, which I've led to the good model that we now have. That's also one of the benefits of the first thing I recommended which is travel volunteer on farms. I worked on 35 farms that's I asked every single one of them. Like what's the greatest challenge you face or you know what's the thing that you've learned the mistake you've made. So that's 35 examples, 35 mistakes that I don't have to make myself, I just learned from other people. So that's the first, the first strategy, good knowledge that mistakes are made be, let's say even excited to go make them. Because that's how you improve, but better to watch someone else who made them. So that's the first one mistakes will be made and you have to read two years of corn. All right, the second, second strategy. So five of these are going through number two, start small, start simple. That's sort of bait that's flowing out of the previous one mistakes will be made so start small so the mistakes aren't that big. It's also permaculture principle number nine use small and slow solutions. The variants of that same thing. Also, so he has five principles in this book, number two is start slow start small. So same thing. And two years of corn. So start small, start simple, that's my version of it. So I'll give an example. So contour lines the name. It's on the logo here. The name counter lines is kind of a manifestation of this strategy. It's one method one agricultural method. So conservation method. We use lots of different methods over time with the with the landowners. We do polycultures rotational grazing mulching organic pest control. But if you focus on one thing, it's a lot simpler. And that's the only thing that we focus on when we start. So a bit about our, our actual community engagement model. When we start in a new community, there's three meetings in that first season, one is just to go meet them explain the projects offer the projects. The second one. In the first one we get a list of names, like we explain it who wants to join. It's usually everybody in the community. Then the second meeting. We plan a date about a couple weeks later, give them time to clear the other lands and prepare the stakes of my today cow. A clear city sepium. That's the leg, the legume tree that we use that we plant on contour. Get give people two weeks to prepare it. And the second visit is we make an a level usually just sticks to cut some branches. The locals, they know they use a vine as a string you tie it up with a vine and then you get a rock and then that's your, that's your the pendulum for the level, where you can get a find a plastic bag and put dirt in it and that's, you know, it's very simple. So we build this tool on the second visit, we go out to the sites with this tool, and we mark the contour lines. And that's it. Then the third visit, which is now we're doing it where it's two months later. So we let the states, the sites established for two months, then two months later, the third visit we come back with the fruit trees, and we plan. So it's very simple. So, later throughout the process, then the next visit is our technicians go and they supervise. And then this annual seed, and then they gradually like, like polycropping, incorporating animals composting that comes later, but we don't as too complicated problem a lot with notice culture. Sinchopic as well is that first thing that people do and the thing that people focus on is teaching so they bring people full of like theories and principles and and a million different things. It's too complicated. So what we do is we have, we just start this contour lines, we're going to go to your land, mark these lines. They're marked with the stakes I mentioned the leggings which resprout, and then we come back and plant some the trees. So it's simple. So one method. So that's the name. It's contour lines because that's how we start that forms the foundation of these agroforestry sites are those lines. And then all management that that comes in the future is based within those lines if they want to put a road through there it's along the line if I want to put up a fence plant annuals plant other trees. They're all working within the same lines, but we've do a simple method one simple method we've already established the site and we already have these families now involved in the projects. So that's one example of a start small starts simple. Another example, which is how we how we offer the projects the trees to the communities is that we so what we offer. We're using the agreement, which I'll show later, and I'll show you some photos as well I saw our comment ash. In the agreement it's each family can receive up to 150 fruit trees. And that's, that's what we offer, but we don't give 150 trees right away so we say 10 fruit trees, you can start with 10 and you just trying 10. But it works that way so for one it's like they get to try it. Maybe they're, you know, if they just get 100 trees and they realize like God's too much work or we don't agree with these methods or whatever. Then it's a loss, you know but if they only start with 10. It's a smaller loss. Also it's for us to see, because if we go to community 50 families sign up. They can all start with 10 trees, then the next season. If they have maintained those trees well and if they want to continue with more, and if they follow the required cultural methods, which I'll get into later. Then they can go to 50 trees the next season, and then up to 100 trees the following and then 100 so it's little by little with each family. And that's, that's the way to do it. So a lot of nonprofits will just show up with all these funds and good intentions. Here's a, you know, 100 trees 150 trees all at once. And then you just hear so many stories like other people didn't a lot of people to sold the trees they even plant them, or they find them and then they abandoned them. I don't know what happened. Yeah, because he started too big too fast. So 10 trees starts small starts simple. And that's another example. And assuming everyone's following here. That's all comment that I was breaking up. So I can edit that part out. So that's the second strategy starts small starts simple, and that leads us directly into the third strategy, which is scale ability. So here I will share the screen, and I will show a few things. So you start small and scale up for many reasons, including the one I already explained that success rates will be higher, or the lost rates will be much lower. So the concept here is having a model. So Tommy taught me this, as well as many things. I have a model. So, all right, let's go right to the screen share. Welcome. All right, screen share. I'm going to share Google Maps. So this is the, this is what I used to compile the data in the field I use an application called offline maps by Siberia spelled with a P. It's a great app. It's free. And I go out, or I have interns go out and mark these sites. Then I get the file put it on the Google Maps. So here on this on this Google map, we have all not all actually we have many of the project sites have been mapped. We're still lacking a few so zoom out, give you some context. The great United States of America. Here we have Guatemala. So the highlands where the city and T. I'm Antigua right now where most and most of our projects are here. I don't know if you guys can see the little hand clicker. So this is the Caribbean coast of Guatemala. The population is a mixture of Garifuna, who is the Afro Caribbean population. Interestingly, they identify more as indigenous than as African, from what I've read, they're like a mixture. So the Africans that were brought over by Europeans landed on islands and mixed with the natives. And that's who the Garifuna are today. So they're based all up through bellies. Across this is Honduras here the coast of Honduras, and including they have a quite a presence in Livingston, or they had sadly it's a lot of them are moving to the states and their presence on the land is disappearing. So the majority of these communities. Let's put the community layer on. So the municipality of Livingston is about this size up to bellies over to real do say. So it's about 100 or so 1000 square kilometers just our municipality. And there are over 100 villages in the jungles surrounding Livingston alone. And the villages we work in. So far Livingston. Yeah, there are many more. Let's take a look at what the land looks like land use. So all you can see it's all chopped up little patches. So that's all slash and burn corn. Here's one example one village called Tatine village. And they own. 100 hundred families that's roof huts. But they own all of this land. Yeah, so I know it's about 1500 hectares that they own, including land that they have in a before station incentives with the government. But the majority of the land they work is in slash and burn corn. So it's like the darker patches have been cut and burnt recently. And then the greener patches are in regrowth, soon to be cut and burnt again in that rotation. So we're looking at the map. Oh yeah, so I was going to talk about scalability. So back to the project layer. I'll change the base map back to the terrain. You can see him better. There are not all but many of the sites that we have in the region. So we started February 2019 on this site right here. So this is, I call it the Donald Elfo pot that site, because this is loan owned by a private landowner it was in pasture, very degraded only the toughest of herbs weeds would grow on it compacted steep land all the sediment washed to the lower parts. So we made a deal with him came in and planted 200 fruit trees did about 1100 meters of contra lines. That was it. And that was our first project. The guys that we worked with on that project or the people we employed basically also training simultaneously worth three guys from Tatine Village. So those are three guys. Don Carlos you can you and Victor. So they started off as trainees and then the next season, May, June of 2019. We started in their community, and we, that was the first fundraising crowdfunding campaign idea to fund three sites for them so each planted 100 fruit trees So that's so for example here that's Victor's down here you can you and this one up on the hill is Don Carlos. So we started with three sites, the following season that expanded to six, including like this one is done Victor son, his brother's other brother, and a few others than the following season we went up to 12. All right, so I explain this because these were models that we scaled, we replicated the model and scaled it. In this case we went up to 21 sites in this community, plus another 20 sites with women, which at the time we were dividing by gender which we don't anymore. But anyway so there's 41 sites in this community. And then the following season of what happened over three seasons in Tatine. Meanwhile, in November of 2019, our third season working we started in three other villages. So this one around here La Pintara. It's a, I call it the river community because you write up these beautiful mangroves. This is El Cedro, which is the mountain community. And over here, La Guayra Copoli, which I call the beach community because we enter through the beach. So we started with three communities, three more communities that season, the following season we started with six more communities than the following following with 12 more. And this season I think I don't even know how many just the season, including the new regions, maybe like 20 more villages. We started this season. So my point is it's exponential growth, all that, which is based on one single model. So zoom in to let's go to Don Carlos's site. So this site, it has 100 fruit trees. It is about just over an acre or just under a hectare about 0.7 hectares, and it has about 600 meters of contour lines. That's $167 to for the trees, for the technician wages, the tools, mostly the trees is 80% of the cost and for the transport. So this that is, we call it a model. So one site with, you know, X amount of statistics, X amount of cost, that can be scaled to three times, or to 21 times, or 100 times. Now we're at about 700 of these sites in various stages throughout the country. So that's the key right there and that's, I will, I'll show you a proposal that I've used that we use to raise money. And I'll give you more details about how do you move this thing. So this right here is like a $50,000 document we so it's raising $5,000. And it includes 18 sites across three villages. So we're at one site. We're still, I'm still seeing the map. Okay, thanks timing for letting me know. Screen sharing. There's me. Okay, so here's the proposal. Got to make it look official, contour lines. Livingston food forest expansions. So this was after. This is when we started with those six new communities, which was about the fourth planting season in. So this document, we wrote and we sent it out to a bunch of different organizations I like spammed it to like 30 different people and gave it to our existing donors at the time. We ended up raising I think about 50 grand with this document. So it's, so I like I was saying I took that one site, the cost and the amount of trees and all that with one site and just per, like per proposal, I just multiplied it by 18. So this is to plant 18 sites, and more or less across three villages on average, which is 27 acres of land, 10,000 trees. So I took that that one model of a village and scaled it to be or sorry one one site and scale that to be 18. So it has one cost, which is about $5,000. So I was saying I sent this out to random just anyone who looked like an organization that supports this kind of thing. Most people didn't respond. But a few did. And we also made more contacts through that. And so overall this document led to us raising about $50,000. So it's about 10 times of, you know, one will call this like one round, three villages 18 sites. So we did that by about 10 through this document. We have our set costs. So these are, this is our cost of our work fruit trees, tree transport, technician wage, trans technician transport, and then a little bit of equipment like backpack sprayer only to privilege pesticides we use neem and pruning shoes. So yeah, those are the costs per project on average 100 and, sorry, I said 184 per acre. So scalable models. And now we're using the same, basically the same costs, the same budget to expand these projects, even more exponentially each season. Yeah, that's the, that's kind of the third principle there is to have to scale up start small and then scale up. And I'm back. All right, so I'm going to just breeze through the next two strategies. So, so that was number three scalability have models that you can replicate. So yeah, so I'll explain a little more so in our case it's the land use transition that we're doing is slash and burn corn. To agroforestry and, you know, in other parts of the world, it might be like degraded pasture to agroforestry or to regenerative grazing, or whatever the case may be but fine start with one site. Find out the costs of it. And then with those costs without information, the information is the, that's the most powerful thing. Information so and with that information, you look for more funding to expand it. You say, look, we've done this, we know how much it costs it works. We want to do it 10 times more. You know, or 100 times more or whatever starts, starts small scale. All right, the fourth strategy is. There's a lot in our case. So, the strategy is work grants, not charity. So we don't do charity we don't give donations. We're, we're a nonprofit and agricultural group of agricultural technicians who give work grants. So it might sound like semantics, but no it's very it changes entirely the, the mindset of everything of everyone of all. Going back to this book, the main problem, let's say it's number one problem that most people engaging in this work that they come across. It's called paternalism. So what it is is, you know, the usually from the US or from Europe, a first world country, they come with all this money and good intentions, and what they end up doing is, giving, giving stuff. And it's, and it's, it might sound like oh that's good right but no. So you don't see what you want to do is give the bare minimum. That's necessary for someone to do this work, give the bare minimum. I'll give an example so in Tatine and then we started our costs were like, so there's we reduced our cost by 70% from the first when we started before I read this book to, to how we work now. The cost has come down 70% because what we did at first was, okay, everybody gets a backpack sprayer to spray the pest control, everybody gets their helpers labor paid for it. Oh, because you need helpers to join you. What else we're buying like barbed wire to keep their pigs out we were pretty much anything that a person wanted oh some of your trees died will buy more. And that's what you're doing is paternalism because what you're doing is, it's, there's so many levels of why it's wrong, but the main point is, well one is costing you too much money, and two is that you're making people dependent. And it's kind of belittling to people. It's not empowering to be like hey you need this help from from us rich people. It's not a good mentality it's not a good mindset. And most projects is lose interest or lose all their money and fail because of that because of paternalism. So what we're what we're doing that it's not charity like we're not helping the poor. That's insulting. What we're doing is we're providing work grants to farmers. So if you do this work in the States or in Europe you might not have this problem, because that's what happens when say for example extension agency gives a hoop house to a farmer or irrigation system, or fencing. For some reason, because it's in a first world country, and they're white, it's called a grant, you know, but if you do that same thing here it's called charity, because they're brown it doesn't make sense. So, it's what we're doing the same thing it's a grant. So what's the difference, well charity is paternalistic and belittling for one, but apart from that it's it. Seeing some questions. All right, we'll get to that. So, so the problem with charity is that it's usually given in good faith and given to, you know, feel better about oneself on the part of the giver, but it doesn't have. It's effective in terms of one like seeking me into a follow up. It's like here you go take all the stuff and now I say to you you're better. No, it's, it's, it's a grant. So, alright, so what we do it's a grant has a specific purpose to achieve on the land, the change in land use like we talked about. It's a specific objective, agriculturally and land use wise, and it comes with conditions and it comes with rules you have to, you have to apply for it and you have to. What's the word, you have to, I'm thinking in Spanish all these words, you have to, you have to be able to, you have to like comply with the rules of the grant in order to receive it. If you're working with farmers in the first world it's like you get this but you have to do this and that. So these are work grants. It's not charity. So what, how does that also play out well one is that we, like I said he just don't give things away and that's it. One is that you have an agreement, and you put rules. So in our case it's, you have to maintain the trees obviously you have to plant them and maintain them. Those first 10 that you get, you have to plant them and maintain them in order to get more. And you also have to follow. So we're using this opportunity to incentivize this transition to like restoration agriculture or regenerative agriculture. So we have, in our case we have three agricultural methods that are required. You have to plant the legumes, which are the gliver city of sepium on contour. They have to all sprout and if they don't you have to replace them. That's one to you have to an English leg use mulch. So organic material one one part of that is you have to put along the contour line just above the stakes a an English called like a dead barrier. So it's a it's an erosion control structure logs sticks, you know, plant, plantain trunks piled along that line. And also around each fruit tree at the mulch, throw down leaves. That's also what the majority could cut the gliver city of sepium is used for to cut and throw down his mulch. All right, so I'm going to show some photos I see the suggestion. Last part. So the third thing that we do is the third required agricultural method is organic you can spray herbicide or any chemical pest control. So there's the three agricultural methods. If you follow them with those first 10 trees that receive, then the following season you get 50 more trees, and then and so on if you do well with those 50 then you go to 100. That's how we expand on top. Recently, we've added two more rules on top of the, the, those three agricultural rules, there's two more that are kind of like the agriculture or the organizational rules. So number four, out of the total five rules number four is include, you have to include the whole family. So it's women have the same rights to like ask for a project. You have Steve's assistance and also join on the training days. Same as men. So all right, we'll get to we'll get the photos. And so I'll tell a story about why we added that rule. Based on a photo, your screen. Did this kind of a flow chart to paste on Facebook and explain to people how we do that expansion. So we have, so I mentioned those three guys that started as trainees on the pilot site. Then the following season, they, these three guys down Carlos you can even Victor became the first three in their village Tatine to plant their own sites. Then it was six guys in the following season and then 12. I pasted this on on Facebook. And of course I got some feedback, some very valuable critiques like hey, why is it all men, what the hell. And I mean, I'm not going to make excuses again we were only working with men at the time. So thanks to that feedback. Thanks to some consultation on how to do it from like local leaders themselves. So we added a fourth rule to the, to the agreement now, which is that he has to include the whole family so on the on the back that has to be signed by the man and the woman. And we also say that, you know, women have equal rights to like enter these projects. And quite a few communities now. I'm going to say about my eight, eight of these communities. The projects are strictly run by women. The PRC is actually helping us with a fundraiser for two of those communities in Elstor, where there's like about 20 women in each community who are they have they already had like an association. And now they are the ones doing it. So that is the, so the last rule that we added is related to that it's, you have to be organized. So you're going to work with a group of people or a community. If it's like a cooperative or an association and they're already there, but in a lot of cases the communities aren't there yet, which is they have to be organized. So to cut our to keep our costs and to keep to make the projects efficient. For example, we send the technician. On that same day to the one village to mark the contour lines to mark all the sites. On that same day, everyone who's involved in the projects from that community has to come together and work. So you have to all you all have to come on the workday. It has to be that way it can't. If someone doesn't show up we can't like send the technician just to that guy's house. The next day, it'd be too costly. So it has to be organized everyone has to get together. That rule is you have to appoint a representative each community has one person that I'm in contact with. We plan the dates, they send the results of the supervision, they send photos. And with them I coordinate the date like this is the day we're coming you have to tell everybody. So everybody comes. And that's the fifth part of that the agreement. So let's do a share screen. She show you the agreement. We worked on it, something that's the result of four years of this work. I have my father in law help write it in Spanish he has experienced with writing contracts and managing coordinate that about hope so it's all in Spanish but I can you can just get an idea of how it looks. One page. First of all, it has the thing up there. So it says counterlines were an organization, nonprofit oriented towards a spring. Thanks, Tommy. Always chime in with crucial advice time. That's what I'm here for. All right, there it is. So counterlines. You can see it now. All right, so we're an organization oriented towards agroforestry. We achieve our objective working through the hands of communities that understand and are interested in complying with these agreements. We signed these agreements with Camposinos and Camposinos who accept the rules of this agreement. So it's very repetitive and very clear. So the signed agreements have the objective of guaranteeing and making the the benefactors responsible for complying with the objectives of organization and for the benefit of everyone. The organization exists and collaborates with these communities thanks to international support, and this support is conditional based on us complying with what we promise, which is established agroforestry systems. So then it goes into what we offer 150 trees up to 150 trees per person. Like minimal tools, like pruning shears, pest control, technical services, which is basically like the training and ascending technicians. Also annual seed. So we have the rows of trees and in between we plant annuals to some other, some other principle that is shared by both permaculture and two years of corn. We continue to achieve a short term harvest to maintain enthusiasm and assistance. We're also kind of not promising but saying our intention to help with the processing and the marketing of the harvest, which is another initiative we're starting on. The families sign it, they sign it once. And then it says we, we like, we understand that we receive this project voluntarily, we understand its objectives, and we are available to comply with this following rules. And it explains us through three rules, which I just explained plant the legumes use, we call it a bonus, which is like the material organic, both on along the line and along the trees. And then organic, no herbicides. And then, like I said, these are the, the organ is the organizational rules which is include the whole family, include women. And then there are, there are some days, like we said, 10 days per year where everyone has to come together and work communally be organized. And that's mostly like the training days, and then both man and women sign, they put their, that's like ID number. And then I sign and then date. So that's the, that's the agreement and that was actually that's that was the fifth of the five strategies of our work is to have that agreement. So you want to see some pictures. So we get an idea. I should have incorporated that at other times in the thing, but here we are. So you guys are like deep inside my brain right now looking at, or no you're not sharing the screen with that. You know, we can't see the screenshot and you've got some questions about like alley cropping on here. There's some questions just kind of going over the expansion model. And how you kind of went from the pilot project to, you know, steadily incrementing the number of trees that you provide so maybe you can talk about some of the mistakes and some of the early projects that went where they weren't able to Okay. Let me. I'll show some pictures first. And then yeah, I can address those issues I guess as we're looking at pictures. So sorry I didn't quite organize photos specifically for this, but we'll just see some pictures to get an idea of where we're working and what the place looks like here. So here's the photo. So agro tour and there's Tommy, and there's me. And there's Victor down Carlos to the first looking at your documents right now Sean. Okay. Sorry about technical diff. We're going to edit this part out so. All right, so you can see the photo. We can see it. All right. It looks like we got. So that's all corn that used to be reinforced, presumably back in the day. And now it's corn. So along the, you can see the group standing along what is a contour line. So sticks piled up along on contour, and these trees sprouting along that line are the clear city of sepium. So this is a tour we did at the pilot site. So you can see that line of that line of sticks with the brush piled along it. Down below behind the guy talking with the mask is another you can see in our line in the distance, lots of mulch piled up. We had so another way to kind of ensure that people are able and also enthusiastic about doing these projects is to have an occasional event. So this event we invited a few people from each of the communities at the time so that was 50 people came. And we, we have shown around the pilot site and trains and like pruning, also chop and dropping of the, the, the majorek of cow really clear city of sepium more tours. That's showing a level training. Okay, let's make it an A level using a water level it's way better than a rock on a stick on a string. Let me take a look at. So you guys want to do questions now. Let's do questions. So are you going to show photos. Yes. How do you work out the spaces between your planting on contour. Okay, so you got a technical question of specifically about the agriculture that's good. Let's go back to the photos find a photo that shows a site pruning a tree. There's some harvest from the sites being sold. So here's a site that was just slashed and then they're going to plant corn the first season and but we're still going to. So we're going to establish the system plant the stakes in the trees. But they're also going to, you know, make use of that space for that first season and harvest another thing of corn, organically, this time. What's the steepness of the slope and how far like how many meters you have in between two contour lines. All right. Well here's roads. Another important. To me that's the most important thing project you can do is make roads that work because they sadly aren't so in this climate. It's 4400 millimeters of rain per year. So super tropical wet tropics. Also, we're on very steep land. Digging a road. All right, so here's a site so very steep land very high rainfall so that means very high potential for erosion. And that's why these are particularly effective in our climate the the contour lines. So about the spacing. So we plant. Most of our projects, we have some that are a model designed by Mike hands and Honduras called, it's called the Inga Foundation, and the models called in the alley cropping. So that's planting just rose very tight spacing of a legume tree called in the edginess. Another project we're doing, and that's designed to plant annuals in between. As you cut back those legumes each season, throw down the mulch, and then you plant an annual, and then those legumes resprout. So that's, but the majority of our projects are with fruit trees with some within edginess but mostly with clear city sepium. So the spacing depend spacing between the lines where Victor here standing. It depends which fruit trees you want to plant. So if those lines are planted with, for example, the mom or cacao, or a cold day, for example, these are fruit trees that have three meter spacing. So then therefore, if those are along the lines then therefore the spacing between the line should be three meters, or could be for. So if you're planting mango or mango we planted 10 meters star fruit, jackfruit, breadfruit, and avocado as well they grow much larger. And so those you want to plant. So the line spacing between the line should, you know, correspondingly have that spacing so about 10 meters in those cases. And yeah, so you could do more if you want. So those are the ideas that these all these sites gradually fill in with canopy of these fruit trees and liking trees. If you want a little more time to plant annuals in between, you can space those lines out a little farther. So we'll have, you know, basically just take longer to fill in. So yeah that's that answers that question. Was that the question about what's the spacing between the lines. Yeah, did that answer your question. Yeah, Garth, he is a Conan sorry Conan. Looks like see up that. Yeah, that's great job. Thanks very much. Hey Sean here's another one that says what motivates the villages to join the project. How do you convince them. So that's a good question. So going back to this is the, I explained it under the first question, which is, you know, how do you find land to restore. And that's finds a situation a location where the land use can be improved, basically. So from our perspective, ecosystem restoration, maybe the land use is kind of is destructive, like it's slash and burn chemical corn or it's, you know, conventional grazing pasture. Find an alternative one you can offer and incentivize it, find a way to make it. So that's the key. So there's different levels or different strategies. But I think the biggest one is just to make it economically viable for the person. So in our case, I guess luckily everyone, you know their camposinos they work the land. Some people have some fruit trees, but everyone understands that fruit trees are valuable, and you can produce far more both food and also income per area if it's planted with fruit trees, compared to the slash and burn corn, which beyond subsist, apart from, you know, sustain the family, as far as selling it, it's not profitable at all. So in our case, everyone knows the fruit trees are more valuable. Also, there's the barrier to most people is that they're expensive. I mean, like I said, that's 80% of our project costs right there is buying the fruit trees. So we buy them grafted from a nearby nursery, which is a great project by the way fruit is the window. So we support them, you buy their trees. And so we offer something that is valuable that has a perceived value. So fruit trees in this case, and like a few tools and training annual seeds. And hopefully help with like processing and marketing in the future. So it's the economic incentive and I think that alone is what gets people willing to join. Like I said, we go to a community, explain the projects offer them. You know, who wants to join it's open. Anyone can start with the 10 trees before moving to the 100 150. And it's usually everybody signs up because people know. So there's other factors though. There's other factors, for example, having people trust you so I've been working in this in that region Livingston for three years so people. And everyone's heard of the gringo Campesina they call me. And they know that well one that I make good on my promise if I'm going to say, we're going to give you 100 trees. You know, as long as we follow the agreement, then the 100 trees are going to come. So that helps. Another thing is, I mentioned having the training days. So bringing everyone together to the pilot site to have a training day. Yeah, because one it motivates people they see they see a functioning established system. And you think they think like I'm going to, I can do that and go home to my site and prove it maybe. And that helps also just get earning gaining that ability to actually do it, how to prune the tree, how to control the like pest control. The mulching chop and drop, you know when to chop the magic cow, when to do this all that planting animals so that's also requires like a knowledge like technical skills. And having that also enables people to do this work. Another, another strategy, another part of that is we have. So at first it was just me like I would go out and mark the lands myself and that's where I got that name gringo Campesina. I would go to each site because there were there were very few at that time, but now with the expanding at this rate. We have so I call them local technicians, we have right now three guys as we speak their marking lines and villages around Livingston. And local guys over time they kind of, if you're doing this kind of work you're going to be working with communities you're going to see who, who they are they're going to rise to the top they're going to you know reach out contact to you. They're going to always show up on the days they're going to show interest. And those are the guys that you eventually employ you build a relationship with them and employ them as the technicians. So having those guys is also very key to helping motivate other people, because they see like, you know this is, it's not just some, you know rich gringo with a big farm or he can. That's, that's a problem with like a lot of nonprofits coming they do a demo site and they're like look, you can do this. But then the people think like no we can't like you just did it because you have a lot of money. So my point is to have other locals like them doing it. It becomes more real and more possible. So we have these technicians local guys, they speak the local language, KC mine language, and they and I, and so we employ them by work blocks. So for example, now it's like a two week period. September to October, they go to all the villages in their sector. So I have a we have mountain river and ocean, those three sectors are three guys they go to all the villages in those sectors, and they will one they train people. They, they also supervise. So like I said it's a strict agreement you have to follow the methods in order to continue with more trees. So we send the technicians a supervisor with a checklist. They go to each site. All right, this guy has, like he did his mulch. He did the, the better is more those the sticks on the line. He didn't spray and he mulch the trees so check he's eligible to get annual seed right now and more trees next next season. So that, you know, how to motivate people. But I think the main thing is just seeing that it's economically viable to make that change in land use. I think that's the key. And yeah, that can. I mean, you got to find what that is in our case it's fruit trees. In some cases it could be like, if you want to help someone transition their conventional grazing pasture to a regenerative grazing for example, it might be, you know, like offer the fencing that is needed or something, but some, and it should be minimal but it should be what's needed to make that transition. And it needs to be profitable, like in our case, Campesinos know that fruit trees are valuable. Hopefully a rancher will know that if he converts to regenerative grazing for example, and grass grows faster and he produces more of his dairy or his meat whatever. You know, that's the motivation right there. And you can start getting creative. So I mentioned carbon credits, which is something that's becoming, I think, more real, more established, hopefully and then also exist payment for ecosystem services. Check with your national so in the states we have the NRCS, which is a branch of the USDA, they pay incentives. It's not the US is not the best example. Actually here in Guatemala, it's called in at the, like the National Forestry Institute they have and Mexico has one as well very robust incentives program and incentives has its issues. It's not the best system that can be paternalistic is the problem, but if it's going to get someone to start that transition. It's an option. You have ecotourism, agritourism, you have forestry products. You have, you know, hosting students from universities that have funding to do a study about whatever. You can get creative but that's that's how you convince people is find ways to make profitable. And that's also why the value adding and marketing initiative which which my wife is leading now is a big part of this as well, very crucial part. So yeah, motivating people. That's it. Is that so that was who done. Did that answer that question. So you can just explain a little bit more about your context because I know that you've been finding it a bit trickier than Sean to persuade neighboring line owners to grow food forests. Do you want to talk more about. Hi thanks thanks for the answer and also for all the information so far it's really helpful. Yeah, I was just asking because I think it's for me quite hard to sort of know how to reach out to the community around like what might sort of inspire or get them interested in, in also doing similar work. Yeah, so I was just wondering sort of what the steps that your project take. So I'd recommend start with a model. So, for example, we have a model which is our agroforestry system 100 trees on an acre and a half. And so you have that model so then you can go to someone with that and offer it to someone be like we will, you know, if you as long as you follow these, these steps, and follow these methods that we're promoting. And we will, we will give that to you. And, you know, start with start small and be like we'll give you 10 fruit trees, but to have it be like an official system so we have like the logo and, and a written agreement. So people take it seriously and just be like, you know, we'll start small it will give you 10 fruit trees and try this system. So basically there's situation there but, and maybe it might be something else like if you want them to start. For example, like chicken tractors be like all right we'll start with one small chicken tractor, 20 chickens. And then if that goes well then you can build five of them, you know scaling up that model. I don't want to say it with without knowing the situation but I think it's just finding something that you can offer people of value to incentivize that that people have that impact on on the land that they change the land use. John shared about how you use the pilot project as like a classroom and example early on. Yeah, so that also helps us to have something to show. Because it's clear that it's possible that other people can replicate that with the help that you'll give them. So yeah we started with the pilot site. Apart from, well first it was where we train those first three guys who later became the first people ever to the plant these projects. Actually, also here's another part of that strategy so I part of like looking for a place to work is doing that research. Part of that research is finding out who's there doing that work. So in our case there's a local nonprofit called apple or star student, which is helping the region of the star student region. And they do a lot of the same work they do Agra forestry they do like fuel efficient stoves, just all the cool stuff. And so I got in contact with them made a relationship with them. And that's how we found these first three workers, I asked them like send three guys I just need three workers, but three got you know anyone's going to show up in that case it just you're going to pay. But I told them like I'm looking for three guys who specifically are interested in Agra forestry and who might be interested in, and doing this work in the future. So this this nonprofit sent those three guys, Don Carlos you can you and Victor. So another thing about having that contact. So apart from getting those first three workers which through them we were able to get into that first village and start. Now we have the 40 sites in that village. Also, through that nonprofit apple star student, every, all those first few seasons, and even still today to this, these seasons. I asked them. So we're, you know, we have, we're interested in expanding. Can you recommend a village where we could go and do this work. So that actually that first season after Tatine where it was those first three other villages, La Pintara El Cedro and La Guarda Copoli. They, they took me. So they like arranged it with the. So each, each village has a council community council. So they arranged it with them they took me, introduced me like here's a gringo wants to do this stuff. And we trust him because he did it before. And so that was key to getting into those getting started. And once you're started then it all becomes way easier that part of it of being accepted by people. It's just getting started. But yeah, like Tommy said so on the, on the pilot site. We, it was where we train the first three guys, which is how we got into the first village. And since then it's been a constant, well, one, we bring tours there. Every group that I've brought to Livingston we go there. Also then, like I said, the, we do training days where we bring representatives from all the communities to like we, we like arranged boats for them and everything and a lunch and bring them all to that site. That site has been crucial in, in teaching people and developing our models to find funding. I paid that first one out of pocket, like 1000 bucks to get that site planted. So, thanks to, thanks to mom and dad. So, but then from there, having that first site, I was able to have that model now that can be funded. And then I was able to, that's how I did the first crowdfunding campaign, using footage material and the knowledge and the statistics, the model from the first site that helped me raise funds for those first three sites in Tatine. And then having that done, having good videos and that allowed me to raise funds for the next ecosystem restoration camps. Thankfully did a fundraiser as well actually for those first three villages. And then yeah just just getting started is the, it's the hard part, but on the bright side it gets easier. Thank you so much for your wonderful presentation with such detailed, perfect work you're doing over there. I was just following you closely from the time I joined you. I wonder if at all you're having your own a nursery that you're operating in at the project. And why you raise your own seedlings and also where you collect maybe the seeds, you have the seed sources. And then besides maybe in your operation site, there are some, there are some wildlife within the project site. And I do wish to know, because some of these things are happening, especially in some of our project sites too. And how do you handle them if you're told you have wildlife within place. I understand correctly it's like the multiple question one is where do we get our plant material from like the plants and also about wildlife. I was there one more before that. Sorry, I missed that one. So if you have a tree nursery and grow your own trees. And if you do where'd you get the seeds from, and do you have wildlife living in the areas where you're planting and if you do how do you manage that. Good questions. So where do we get the trees we buy it so the fruit trees we buy grafted fruit trees from a nursery, which we're very lucky to have just up the river. It's called fruit is the Mundo another gringo who's been there for it's been there since the 80s he was in the Peace Corps. This guy Dwight Carter. So we buy all the trees from him. And you know it's kind of like one of those things like why reinvent the wheel he's already doing it. Actually we are have we have sent now four groups of guys from our projects local guys to go volunteer and live and stay and learn from him. Some of whom are starting their own nurseries, which is a cool thing for them like a business and also for them to plant more trees, but we don't depend on that for trees we buy all of them from Dwight, because it's more certain and it's, and it's also supporting another great project that guy Dwight he's he had like a big farm he's been training guys since the 80s, and he's actually given off parts of his land to them start their own nurseries. And they have like a partnership where they split the business. That's really cool and it's, it's not to support them. In terms of the legumes. So my drink a cow comes from cuttings. And those people have that it's used a lot in living fences. So if we say like all right we're going to come in two weeks to mark the lines you need 40 stakes, or 50 states of the clear city of sepium. It's not a problem anyone can go find it. So the only nurseries we do ourselves are for the, so I mentioned the Inga alley cropping. And that's inga edulis or Guama we call here. And so we have a model of those projects where it's 1500 of those per person per site, and it comes with X amount of incentive, not cash, because that'd be paternalistic. It's an incentive which the recipient can choose something that's in line with our values like more fruit trees, sustainable like bamboo construction something fuel efficient stove which is another good business we support solar panels or a kayak, something like that. Anyway, so the nursery is so they set up the nursery. And we have a dimension. So it's 3000 kids Alice which is like, like 400 something dollars is the incentive. And then the project costs are mostly the seed. We spend about 25 cents of Guatemalan can sell centaels, which is like a few pennies. And we, we buy those seeds locally a lot of people already have these trees actually seed that came from my cans and Honduras the Inga Foundation, our partners efforts are soon. Everything's connected. It's crazy and brought them eight years ago and now a lot of these communities have the seed. So we have someone signs up for this Guama, the Inga edulis project. We give them 1500 nursery bags, you know, go fill them, then when they're ready to make sure that they actually do it first before we send the seed, and then the seed comes we spend about 400 kids Alice. And we buy 1600 seed a little extra from a local community, and then send those seeds to the person doing the nursery. So that's the, that's the Inga edulis project. So the other was the other question, the wildlife. So yeah, I mean we live in a tropical region. Unfortunately, you know because of the land use. You don't see a lot of wildlife like Jaguars exist, but the way farther into the mountain. Same with deer. There's this animal called tapi squintle, which people hunt. I've tried it. It's delicious. I don't recommend it, but it's like a, it's like a little pig, basically, with a long nose. It tastes like chicken with pig around. Anyway, so things exist, and then all kinds of birds. But that's, that's a good question though about wildlife, because that leads to another theme and that is to have studies done, which we haven't achieved yet. If you know anyone who wants to come study awesome projects and how ecosystems are being restored we need someone to do that. I mean I've done like, what's like layman studies, or like amateur studies like measuring the soil horizon change so on the pilot site. Another use of the pilot sites we've done studies where, for example, on the other side of the fence, which is still in pasture, I did like soil horizon study, and it's only like a minuscule top layer of topsoil. And then just on the other side of the fence, same exact land, where we had the first recite it's like 10 inches of topsoil of like black rich topsoil. Another one I did was plant biodiversity, same location, one side of the fence, you mark off a meter, count how many plant species are in it, simple. So on the pasture side, three, on average, three species per square meter. On the other side, on our side over the agroforestry, it was like nine, I think the average was 13. The average was four, increased to 13 species per square meter. And that's the only studies I've done but another one should be like studying bird species, studying animals, studying soil composition, and then also all the socioeconomic things that could be studied, like how these projects improve the situation. And I had a list of goals when I started three years ago, that was like do X amount of sites, raise X amount of dollars in different categories, have X amount of studies done, and all the other goals have blown out of the water. It's like way off the charts with the amount of project sites, for example. But the one that I haven't done is like studies. But we need, we need that to have to be able to say to supporters but also locals like look, doing these contour lines will improve your soil fertility by X amount. And also, and donors would care a lot like it improves wildlife habitat by X amount, but unfortunately we don't have numbers yet. Real quick, what about the opposite side of animals, domestic animals. I know you've had problems with cows and pigs. Yeah, that's a good question. So the, so back to the first strategy I recommended which is mistakes will be made. So the pilot site was just a great, wonderful disaster of learning experiences. He was a private landowner he had a dairy operation. He still does, and we fenced off a section to do this project on. I wasn't there I lived on the other side of the river on different farm. And so the main, so the thing we learned from that site was you have to be on the land. And that's why these projects with the communities work great because it's like their land and they're there, working it every day. And on the pilot site. So it was a just a show of various so what happened was the cows would see all that green and compared to the desert that they're trying to survive and they see all the green on the other side of the fence and they break the fence down. So people coming in and stealing all the wood that we put along the concert lines as the barrier is carrying it all. It was all taken and over the course of a few months for firewood. Another great learning experience like don't pile up something of value that other people don't have nearby and expect them not to take it. The cows were coming in pigs would come in and pigs like route around look for worms and kill trees, the cows. So I actually told the landowner like I'm leaving that site I'm not going to be responsible for it anymore. It's all yours now, because it was getting destroyed by cows chickens are no problem. Yeah, so the domestic animals that's probably one of the biggest threats to the to having, well at least in the case of agroforestry sites and the fruit trees, because pigs do get in a lot people have pigs and they go free, and then they eat a nice dinner for their destructive chickens will prevent like was an English just by having annual like gardens around your house. You can't really do unless you fence it off. So yeah that's that's a big challenge is the wildlife or the domestic animal life. I hope the answers those questions from Ronald. Thank you so much. Sorry. Thank you so much for that explanation really. Okay, I'm seeing a good to hear. Thank you. Is there the same Ronald's cowboy who asked this other question about the attitude of owners of lands next to your project. It's the same person. Yeah, I think that's just a delay between Uganda and Guatemala. Uganda cool. So yeah the attitude while in this case if it's these projects that are in other village or in villages. Mostly the attitude is when are you going to come offer them to our village. That's what we're seeing is the demand for these projects are growing exponentially in terms of like private landowners. Most of them don't live here they live in the city. They just own the land and destroy it. That's another issue. I'm seeing another question from out here. What's the legal status of consulate. So we're 501 C3 registered in the United States, and we don't have a status here in the in this country yet. We don't have like a small business to do the processing and marketing side of the harvest, but we need something more legal in this country. That's that question. So we are 501 C3, which also helps with legitimacy mostly. I think there's more about all that he's the one who helped me set that up. So yeah, any other questions. If there are no more questions, then I think it's time to wrap up because we said we'd be finished by five and it's 10 past. So I want to say thank you Sean and Tommy to for your, for your support on the sidelines. What you've achieved is really impressive at Contour Lines and I hope that the other camps that are here and the camps that watch this at some point in the future have learned something from you that they can implement on their own sites. So this will, we will edit this, this video and then put it on our YouTube channel for anyone who wants to watch it again. Yeah, big thank you Sean for your time and everyone who came. Thomas Alp wants to talk to you about legal status. So maybe you can exchange emails to one another quickly before we sign off. Yeah. Have a wonderful evening. Well, thanks everyone for coming. And thanks to all the future YouTube people who are watching this. And especially for the camp leaders, if anyone has questions about implementing these models, we're setting up a more perspective of getting these models into other people's hands, adapting them to where they are so that they can restore land in terms of the strategies as well as the funding. And yeah, check us out. Join us on Facebook slash contour lines agroforestry and our website contour lines.org. Let's let's restore the planet. It's going to happen. Oh yeah. Thank you so much for recording now, everybody. See you soon.