 Well, good evening. I'm Don Carlton. I'm the executive director of the Doc Briscoe Center here at the University of Texas and Welcome to another in the series of programs Cosponsored by the LBJ library and the Briscoe Center It's a very special pleasure for me to introduce our guest tonight Governor Bill Richardson Governor Richardson has led a distinguished public service career as a member of Congress as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations as Secretary of Energy and Bill Clinton's second term in office and as governor of New Mexico from 2000 until 2008 At the end of his term as governor in 2008 Bill Richardson sought the Democratic nomination for president He left the race after the primaries in Iowa and New Hampshire and announced his support for Barack Obama And with the New Hampshire primary being held today I'm sure that Governor Richardson will have something to say about his experience in that primary as a member of Congress from 1983 until February of 1997 Bill Richardson divided much of his time between representing his constituents in his congressional district in northern New Mexico and carrying out high stakes foreign rescue missions Including at President Clinton's request Negotiating with Saddam Hussein and Baghdad and with the North Korean leadership in 1996 at the press conference in 1997 when President Clinton announced that he was appointing Bill Richardson our Ambassador to the United Nations the president pointed out and I quote Just this week Congressman Richardson was huddled in a rebel chieftain's hut and Sudan eating barbecued goat and Negotiating the freedom of three hostages unquote as a diplomat and special envoy Richardson has received four Nobel Peace Prize Nominations and he has successfully won the release of hostages and American servicemen in North Korea Cuba Iraq and the Sudan Bill Richardson has authored three books including his autobiography between worlds the making of an American life and How to sweet talk a shark Strategies and stories from a master negotiator Which was published in 2013? I especially like Bill's alternate title for that book by the way, which is just in the inside jacket And that is quote a master diplomats guide to negotiating with people who want to eat you unquote Bill Richardson is now active on the national and international speech circuit And he appears frequently on numerous television news programs including those on CNN Fox MSNBC and Univision He's established two foundations the Richard the Richardson Center for Global Engagement which focuses on conflict resolution in prisoner release and In partnership with Robert Redford the foundation to preserve New Mexico wildlife Which seeks to protect wild horses and provide alternatives to horse slaughter Few can match Bill Richardson's wide-ranging experience and dedication to protecting and improving human rights And I'm pleased to note that Governor Richardson donated his papers to the briscoe Center last March That generous gift which included his papers as an eight-term member of the House of Representatives Greatly enriched the Center's extensive collection Documenting the history of the United States Congress The Center's collection of congressional papers by the way is the largest archive of its kind outside of Washington, DC In addition to the gift of his papers Bill Richardson has become an active supporter of the briscoe Center as a member of the Center's advisory council And is a good-will ambassador promoting our services and programs to our public Governor Richardson will be interviewed on stage tonight by my good friend and colleague Mark up to Grove the renowned Director of the LBJ library who certainly needs no formal introduction to this audience So please welcome my good friends mark up to Grove and Governor Bill Richardson Welcome Governor delighted to have you here. Thank you Welcome to the LBJ library Don mentioned in his introduction This wonderful book how to sweet talk a shark, which I've had the pleasure of reading It's absolutely delightful and it highlights One of the more interesting parts of your background the fact that you have dealt with Tyrants and despots throughout the world and you write in it You have negotiated with narcissistic despots and power hungry tyrants who cared more about their Own skins than they do about their own countries So how did you become the go-to guy for going up against the bad guys throughout the world? You know mark President Clinton one times he was asked well Why do you send Richardson to talk to all these people and President Clinton? Put it very succinctly. He said bad people like him So you know A domino effect when one the first one was two American pilots in North Korea, and we got one of them out I stayed there for two weeks. I think the North Koreans were so sick of me They gave me the pilots because they wanted me to leave but that brought a succession of other Different missions under President Clinton. I did some under President Bush and One recently with an American Marine in Mexico President Obama, well, I wasn't an envoy but I was involved but you know, it's something that is part of your nature when I was a congressman I always tried to Negotiate problems when I had town meetings. I you know, New Mexico native Americans Hispanics Anglos Conservatives everybody's fighting over land or water or environmental issues and at these meetings I would try to resolve the problem right there So that that become became a part of my nature. Let I know we'll go into I I want to just say how honored I am to be here at the lbj library Lyndon Johnson was one of my heroes because he was a supreme negotiator you should read a Marx book or Beck locks his book about how Johnson would he had a different technique of negotiating it was called intimidation But but he succeeded with with the Civil Rights Act and the great society and you know, and I'm also on the board of the the Johnson Ladybird Johnson Lucy Environmental awards. I don't know why I've been fired because I haven't made the last board meetings, but a Great environmental legacy too from Ladybird, so I'm honored to be here. I'm honored to be part of the briscoe Center You know, what a what a great job Don Carlton has done. You have you know, real real Politicians you have newsmen you got the great Willie Nelson's papers here. I'd like to see if I don't know what what they consist of I don't want to know But I also just in conclusion I want to Besides the Johnson family and all the Johnson people I want to recognize my buddy a Great Texas politician his name is Ben Barnes. He was Did you know that Ben Barnes was Lieutenant Governor of Texas at age 12 No, I'm kidding. He was about 28 the youngest ever and you know his He still is so active and involved and I see him up front here It's it's great to see you've been but but to the Johnson legacy and to the library and to all of you from from Austin and The fact that you're here. I mean, I'm not used to drawing these crowds anymore. So I'm very happy Well, again, we're thrilled to have you here and while President Johnson is renowned for his skills in negotiating. So are you I want to ask What makes a great negotiator and what makes a great negotiation? What makes a great negotiator, you know, I'm asked this a lot. I think you just Have to connect with the other person the other thing That I like to say that doesn't go over very well It's easier to negotiate with a dictator because all you have to do is convince that person You don't have to go to legislatures or press You have to connect personally you have to show respect, you know I always when I negotiated and and and the North Koreans or the Cubans or a Sudanese said you have to come here and meet with us On our turf. I always conceded that. I thought that that was a very easy concession to make I think you have to get into their culture. You have to you know what I negotiated with castor and latin I speak Spanish in Africa I speak a little French you try to Show that personal respect. I mean I remember early on the department of state, you know There's a great institution and all that but they'd give me these Talking points when I go in and my objective was try to get some red cross workers from Sudan and the person I was negotiating with was not a nice person and the talking points would say You know, basically you're not a nice person the US condemns all year. Why was it going to use that? But so so you also have to find ways to let the other side save face you got to know where you're going to end up You have to basically be honest and say look Saddam Hussein you release these two Americans. You're not going to get better relations with the US You know that relationship is not good. You're going to get one day of good press. I will say something nice about you I remember Saddam Hussein said well, would President Clinton say something nice. It's not he won't he already told me he's not and so You connect and and maybe at that point the dictator has felt he's maximized his ability to squeeze the issue the ceasefire and it's time to To make the release and then you say, you know We will find a way maybe to improve the relationship, but Honesty candor let the other side save face. Let the other side make the announcement Know that you're going to internally be spun around press-wise in their country and and then move on but another is once you succeed mark and Getting the other side to agree Get out because they'll change your mind leave town This happened to me with it with Saddam Hussein I had the two Americans out and then he said to me you know, I know you're a Catholic and and you've asked to go to a Catholic service and Tarika sees the foreign minister His wife is a Caldean Catholic. She'll take you to a service tonight and You know, I remembered how Saddam Hussein would change his mind. I said no, no, mr. President I gotta leave now. I have a vote in the Congress was not true. There were no vote schedule. It was a recess and That was supposed to be funny. I guess So I went You know, so we were talking and And I was trying to get out and I said to Saddam Hussein. I said, you know, mr. President I really have to leave no, no, you said he wanted to go now you go plus he said I do recommend if you want to get back to the United States Don't go to confession And I said, what do you mean? He said if you go to confession, you're gonna be there a long time And then he's smart and he smiled he smiled And it was the first personal connection that I think we'd made and I knew for sure That I'd get the hostages out. Yeah, but right after the service we left But you wrote of him There was an aura around Saddam Hussein but a dark one of all the dictators and despas with whom I've negotiated By far Saddam carried with him the most intensity. I said of Saddam shortly after our meeting His eyes are like the eyes of death So what's it like to be staring into those eyes? Well, I was scared I remember looking at my hands and I was sweating when we were sitting like this and Around us We're all the revolutionary guards under a curtain. You could only see, you know, their boots He was a very tall guy imposing physically had his His weapons he had his knives and but he had those beady little eyes and he would just look at me Without any expression and I was going to do the protocol. Thank you for receiving me, mr President my objective here and then I made a terrible mistake a cultural mistake. I Crossed my legs and showed him the soul of my shoe, which was dirty Which in an Arab country is an insult. I'm very insulted right now and I had from the State Department do not Cross your legs in front of Saddam Hussein or any Arab leader. It's I was so tired We had been driven all night and what these dictators like to do is they like to get you when you're tired You're vulnerable. You're hungry Fidel Castro. I remember about 2 a.m. His people would knock on your hotel door President is ready to see you and I say, okay, what time this morning? No right now the same thing with Saddam Hussein we went it was in the evening and All of a sudden after I did that He looked at me and got up and Walked out and Tariqa sees was right here the foreign minister and he said you've insulted the president. It's it's It's a terrible cultural mistake that you've made and I had I should have done that And I said well, what do I do? He said well, you should apologize And I said was he coming back? And Tariqa sees says he'll come back, but you must apologize So Saddam Hussein came back, you know, he's still angry Still with that expression and I took a gamble. I said, you know, maybe Maybe I played into this and they know that they have me and I'm not gonna apologize. I'm gonna be polite I'm gonna repeat my message and I remember When he sat back and I didn't apologize Saddam Hussein looked at me and that little creaky smile He might have thought this this guy is nuts Or Maybe there's Something there that I like I don't know but I didn't apologize and then We went on and on we go back and forth and then all of a sudden he stops looking at me And he says, you know by virtue of the authority vested in me in article 21 of the Iraqi Constitution I hear by turnover the two Americans to you He wouldn't look at me, but what I did Marcus. I say, hey, thanks. You should have seen the revolutionary guard They thought I was gonna do something but then we stood up and and there was press coming in and He said to me, you know We're taking this photograph. I'm gonna release these two to you This picture to my people Does not help me politically he said that to me and I said to him well, mr. President This picture doesn't help me either in the United States, but there was a little bit of a connection My point is I know there's diplomacy. There's social media. There's press. There's so many Scholars here that know how to negotiate My view is you have to connect personally You have to show respect you have to know where you want to end up and you have to be lucky Yeah, you started your reputation for being able to negotiate with the bad guys with the North Koreans you dealt with The the founder of North Korea you dealt with his son We what what do we to make of the North Koreans? What what is What do they want? What is their MO? they operate Totally differently than we do in other words their culture is not just the foreign culture It's a unique culture. It's a cult of personality The leadership the Kim Kim Il-sung Son now Kim Young Moon nobody knows much about right Except that he's internally challenged and he seems to want to do these horrific Executions and nuclear testing and nobody knows exactly why The cult of personality operates where The deity the leader of the country does no wrong and everything emanates from that leader And what happens is the North Koreans? They don't believe in necessarily quit pro quotes. I mean when you negotiate you say, okay, I'm gonna do this Can you do that? You make this statement. I'll make this statement. I release this person You do this you stop nuclear testing. We made a deal with the North Koreans in the Clinton administration In exchange for food Economic assistance lifting the sanctions they would curb their nuclear weapons. They would end their nuclear weapons Well for nine years that deal stood still, but then the North Koreans decided They were gonna abandon the deal so Signing protocols international agreements UN resolutions they they don't see things that way the danger now with North Korea is That we don't know exactly What motivates this young leader who's about 35? He has very little Political experience no military experience speaks a little English. He was educated in Switzerland but he seems to be trying to generate support internally which Means that maybe he doesn't feel solidified in his power the party bosses with his own family Their reports he's executed members of his own family and we feel is challenging But in the past the North Koreans will apprehend an American and Then they will want something in return like a visit that leads to some kind of negotiation Or a prestige fidget visit Jimmy Carter has been there Bill Clinton has been there. They turn over the prisoner. They feel they have You know international press out of it But this time they keep apprehending Americans Sometimes they release them. There's a young man now from Ohio Governor Kasich of Ohio call me about him because I'd been involved in these negotiations and Asked me to help and I'm trying to help with that one, but With this new leader when he continues to detonate nuclear weapons Test hydrogen bombs. I don't think they have a hydrogen weapon, but then refuses dialogue And the United States says well, we're going to have more sanctions at the United Nations We're going to impose banking sanctions. We're maybe going to have a cruise missile defense with South Korea and and he keeps shooting missiles and Then and then China which has leverage over them Right doesn't want to help us. I mean they feel they want trouble there and And So they're stalemate my view is I think we have to find a way to engage them maybe new actors Maybe the Pope maybe a UN envoy maybe some new kind of dialogue because We've got 30,000 American troops there. We have it. They have nuclear weapons eight or nine It's a trip wire. I think we with Iran we've moved in the right direction We have an agreement. I think hopefully this will be one of the final Hopefully legacy achievements of the of the administration, but I see no sign quite yet What are we to make of the rocket launch on Sunday? Which seems to be a veiled attempt to get long-range? Missiles perhaps nuclear missiles right well it it is it does seem to be an excuse the launch For a ballistic missile and and the South Koreans I saw in the press are saying that possibly They have the technology the North Koreans to reach the United States and the Western part Not exactly the mainland, but you know, maybe maybe Alaska. I haven't seen the technical verification of this but you know, it's disturbing because the Objective in the past of this man's father and the grandfather is they do a test like that then they say okay, here's my price We need food. We need wheat. We need Energy assistance take off sanctions and you start negotiating, you know president Bush did this Clinton did this but now this man just detonates and And and nothing happens and there's no outreach. He refuses to talk to anybody The only guy I'm jealous of Dennis Rodman. He only talks to Rodman Can we count on You mentioned that Kim Jong-un is capricious and unpredictable. Can we count on? China to contain North Korea if they do continue to rattle savers so far No, China has failed to contain North Korea and you have to ask yourself why My view and this is not shared by your China expert here and around the country my view is that China wants this turmoil to happen in the region Against us against South Korea and Japan China has geopolitical ambitions to be the dominant power in Asia They've struck a new relationship with Russia Both are members of the Security Council. So it's doubtful whether you can put Really really stronger sanctions because China and Russia could veto them Now China does not want North Korea to fall apart because then there would be Thousands of refugees going into China But keeping North Korea turbulent and letting them do what they're doing. I See that as China's interest You know, even though they're members of the six-party talks and they They condemn North Korea. They voted for the Condemn resolution in the Security Council two days ago China could have leverage they give them food. They give them all kinds of Trade they give them commercial relationships. They You know give them computers But they don't want to do anything. So there's a stale me, right? Shifting gears to another threat Isis Can the Islamic State be negotiated with? No, I don't think right now. I think their motives their credo is Is a destruction of the West? Yeah, it's non-negotiable for them Now that doesn't mean that If there's a concentrated allied effort That weakens them And that means not just the military Bombing effort, but it means Turkey cooperating which it has not With the humanitarian corridors, which it means a coalition of Arab countries. This is an Arab conflict Providing the ground forces. I don't there's no support in America or Europe for ground forces some kind of There's also I was very hopeful with President Obama and his dialogue with the Muslim world You know, unfortunately, there's been so much turbulence in the Middle East that You know, it's hard to keep one crisis contained With so many explosions, but I don't think you can negotiate you can weaken them And then I think through other actors a curb their financing Find ways to limit their Capabilities, but this is going to be a long effort. This is you know, this is Iraq Needs to get works need to get more active. I mean, we're doing 80% of the bombing Germany France are doing more This is going to be a long-range effort. Yeah, governor I'm not going to show you the bottom of my shoe, but I'm going to adjust your microphone because I think it's rubbing against your Let me talk about another Dictator with whom you've dealt and that's Fidel Castro of whom you've written He and I always gotten a long got along. I'm no fan of his politics Nor the cruel iron fist he wielded to keep his population repressed and despairing But I've generally felt ours was a good working relationship Talk about that relationship and how it came to bear This was a relationship that I started when I was a congressman and I was able to get three I Think it was five political prisoners out of Cuba and it was funny because we had a connection. It was baseball I'm an old baseball player. He was a baseball player We talked Spanish He said you should go watch a game So I went to Cuba to Havana watch the game I came back and we didn't start off the well because The score was something like 1311 and I said mr. President Cuban baseball. It's great great hitting You know great drama, but your pitching is a little weak And he looked at me as if I had insulted him and he said you're misinformed. I said yes You're right. I am misinformed because I was trying to get these hostages out But you know I dropped that one But we we started Talking and and getting into things and you know Jesse Jackson who has also been quite successful in getting hostages out had just been in in Havana and Had gotten something like 25 out and Here I was trying to get four and castor wouldn't do it And I said I'm gonna gamble I'm gonna get a little politically incorrect here I wasn't thinking that word because it wasn't invoked it, but I said to castor I said, okay, so Jesse Jackson comes here. He gets 25 out and You're Hispanic brother. You're giving me nothing Castro looked at me and I thought it was another moment when I insulted him and He started laughing and he started laughing and he said I'll give you five And I got five, but you know sometimes Breaking the ice is important in a negotiation I you know, I wish I'd been a fly on the wall with Iran and these negotiations that we've had Maybe you know, there were some of that personal connection that our negotiators had with with the Iranians I don't know but that usually Succeeds because you're talking about human beings negotiate you and Fidel Castro weren't exactly roommates, but you did share a castle talk about that Was that in the book? I forgot it was in the book the Hugo Chavez. Oh, yeah duration of Hugo Chavez. You were in a castle together and it was it made for a very Oh, yes. Yes. Diplomatic situations. Yeah, you all remember President Chavez when he was elected I Was sent to his inauguration was the last days of the Clinton administration and Fidel Castro was at the event At the inauguration there was like a cocktail party and it was in a big castle And I had very specific instructions because when I went in In the Clinton administration, I had negotiated with all these dictators Castro and I had instructions I remember Madeleine Albright who was Secretary of State said Bill now that you're UN ambassador You could not meet with these bad people anymore. You're an official. You can't do that. Do you understand that? I said, yeah, okay, okay And she was Secretary of State and I was technically under as UN ambassador. So I went To this castle and and I immediately had a number of State Department people there that I said to him look if Fidel starts walking towards me because he knows me You got to do something. You got to hit me and get me out of there. You got to intercept us and What happened was, you know, two human beings knew each other. We came together. I We shook hands and I Said I'm gonna lose my job But I did and it and you know this diplomacy has these moments where What do you do you run away? At the time I think that Hugo Chavez Was we didn't know what kind of president he was going to be so I didn't want to disrupt the event and and everybody saw it You know, I was the highest rank in America. I shook his hand. Yeah, I wasn't supposed to but I did Are you pleased that we have diplomatic relations? Yeah? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense What does that mean for us in the future? Well for it basically why is this in the US interest one? This was a thorn in our side all of the Latin American countries couldn't understand why did we didn't have relations with Cuba the embargo You know the embargo didn't work Actually, it was an excuse that Castro had to to blame his economic woes on us But it was bad with Latin American countries. I think if There are a lot of Americans with educational with the cultural ties that were prevented from Getting closer Lastly, I do think that it makes sense. We're talking to China. We're talking to Iran. We weren't doing it with Cuba So I think the president did the right thing. We've had diplomatic relations. We don't have an ambassador In fact, Marco Rubio has prevented an ambassador from being confirmed to Mexico because this ambassador Jacobson her name is was a chief negotiator for the Daytona with Cuba So I think it's the right move. It's proceeding cautiously what I'd like to do what I'd like to see is Look, I think Castro. There's a report that Raul Castro is stepping down. I think it was this morning that The Cubans accelerate their release of political prisoners and move more towards democracy Maybe now with a new Cuban leader, but they've been quite slow and we fulfilled our end of the bargain But I think Cuba needs to move more towards Family visits through freeing political prisoners allowing a little more democracy Having an election. I remember I said that the Fidel ones. I said, you know you you you don't have elections here He said no, I did we do have a like I got 92% I said well Who did you run against some dead guy? he He we already knew each other so he tolerated that You talked a moment ago governor about the our agreement with Iran In your view is that a good deal or a bad deal when it was signed? I I didn't fully support it I Thought it was very strong on the nuclear reduction agreements the Secretary of Energy Ernie Moniz had negotiated that in other words sanctions relief in exchange for The enriched uranium of Iran being shipped to Russia curbing it significantly So that they don't make nuclear weapons. I thought that side was good What I objected to what I had some problems with was They hadn't released the American political prisoners the Marine the new the newsman There was a cleric Iran still was Aiding revolutions Dictatorships helping Assad messing in Yemen Terrorist organization financing them and I wish we'd had more of that agreement But I think what the administration has said is now the hostages were negotiated that if you move Iran into the right Frame of mind negotiating being part of the Western international community The moderates there will get stronger. We shall see I still don't trust Iran I still think we should have gotten a better deal, but I think so far With this release of the hostages is moving in the right direction I think the big test is going to be what will Iran do in these negotiations with Syria. They want to keep Assad there I think Assad is is is a terrible leader. I think he needs to get out But what should be the main objective fighting ISIS or? Getting rid of Assad. I believe the strategy is still to try to do both But you know, there's not been too many advances in either one. What is the greatest threat that we face? Terrorism ISIS without question. The second would be nuclear materials from Countries like North Korea them selling nuclear materials in rich uranium in the black market You know, the third is probably North Korea itself the tinderbox there But I also think the other crises of the humanitarian crisis The treatment of women sexual abuse environmental degradation climate change Endemic diseases this is something that I know the Johnson said the briscoe Center has some very good programs in that direction I think that those humanitarian I'm big on the wildlife issue I think this is an emerging issue protection of species of elephants of cougars of Mount of lions of elephants of My foundation richly signed an agreement with the Jane Goodall Institute where we protect chimpanzees I mean chimpanzees. I don't know people here know that they have been tested I Think not maliciously but for reasons medical reasons so that we can find out more about Certain diseases. Well, you know, I think this is cruel my one of my last Efforts as governor was to go to the NIH. It wasn't even my jurisdiction to stop this testing and thankfully the NIH has done this No more testing of chimpanzees. Let them live. Let them be you let them be I was going to say human beings They probably would object to that As we sit here the New York the New Hampshire primary is playing out you were there eight years ago When you were in the hunt for the presidential nomination yourself you dropped out after New Hampshire And then you incurred the ire of your former boss Bill Clinton by throwing your support not Behind Horry Clinton, but behind her chief rival Barack Obama. What led to that decision? Well, I I'll start up by saying about two months ago Bill Clinton and I made up And I sought him out because I didn't want both of us to go to our graves With this feud after us being very close, you know Ben Barnes understands all this, you know the personal side of politics I think you all do you Somebody you've had a long relationship. You want it to end well sure although. I don't think Bill and I are ready to go but my my so so we've made up I endorsed Hillary I think she's She's a good candidate. I know that she's having these problems, you know, but at the same time I think she is supremely qualified now You know Iowa New Hampshire right right now the New Hampshire primary is closed and you know, I didn't I'm no expert I didn't last very long in this presidential race, you know, it's funny. We were talking in the other side What do voters want in this election? When I was running in 208 and so was Christod and Joe Biden and Hillary we all thought well, you know, if you're experienced you've been a governor You've been in public life. That's what gets you elected. That's what you should press Well, the public didn't want to hear that they wanted inspiration. They wanted Obama You know, we were we were like eliminated early although with Joe Biden Every time not every time I see him. I say Joe, I want you to show me a little respect I beat you in Iowa, you know, I was fourth he was fifth and And then we went on to South Carolina We went on to New Hampshire and there were just four of us I was still in the race, but I see Joe and I said, you know, I beat you and I won New Hampshire He says yeah, but I'm vice president Worked out pretty well for us but so so You know the the I won't say the trouble with I in New Hampshire They're great experiments and democracy great people issue oriented voters But they're not reflective of the American population. I mean there may be two Hispanics in Iowa. No, I'm kidding Very few African-Americans and both so I think what happens is America the more the more distinctive American primaries happen when you start with South Carolina You go to Nevada Hispanics African-Americans in South Carolina They're all kinds of voters, but there's more diversity and that's where I think Hillary will be stronger. I think that She will lose tonight she will lose to Bernie Sanders and it could be a decisive victory But I think she still becomes a nominee. I will say to you that I've been totally wrong. I've been wrong about Trump I've been wrong about Cruz. I've been wrong about Bernie Sanders Because you know, I'm just out of touch. I don't campaign or be out with the people the way I used to I thought that Trump would flame out after you know a month and the guy gets Seems to keep getting stronger Cruz. I said, yeah, no offense. I know he's your senator But but I said Jesus, you know what this guy? He's not gonna get anywhere. I mean the guy won Iowa and then Sanders So so there's right now. I think this election you're seeing the difference with my Race and oh eight people wanted inspiration. They wanted trauma. They wanted an Obama this time I think what they want is I saw a poll today New Hampshire voters. What's the most important thing to you? Is it electability? It's like eight percent. Nobody cares who who's president number two Thinks like me shares my values. That's that was like about 70 percent and then the last one that that I noticed was Tells it like it is that was up there too So this is the electorate. I'm it's just New Hampshire, but but I think it's it's out there You know, there's an anger out there. I think the big issue is income inequality and and whatever party touches that It's gonna elect the next president And so that's why you see the anger rising as it has because of the disparity and I think there's an anger at at There's an anger at income inequality and wages. You know the lack of economic opportunity for young people Even though the economy the indicators are okay There's there's an unease that the establishment, you know, the congress doesn't work with each other The administration and the congress fight over everything You know, the proliferation of social media, which I think is good, but it's divisive You know, you've got the the cable networks the the super PACs all of that has turned people off on both sides and And it's something that that you You can't predict what is going to happen. You can't poll. I mean polls have been so wrong But I think that sanders wins And you know the what had what happens with the democratic party is every For elections everybody says, okay, we got to move to the center Like clinton the democratic leadership council. We got to you know, be more moderate Well, you know, this time the message within the democratic party is progressiveism is pretty strong So does that mean you move to the left automatically? No, but it does mean you address some of these income issues that are out there Uh, you know these young like with with hillary clinton. I I I now get all my news through facebook Because it you know everything happened. I love facebook, especially people that that put in well, you know today I i'm depressed. So i'm gonna go have a cheeseburger. You know, it's just it's entertaining But but but you know what I see Is for instance on the women's issue hillary clinton. I think her great strength Is is being the first potentially woman president? So she gets secretary manlan albright and gloria steinham Basically going out there and saying, you know, you women should vote for women. I mean god This is terrible. You're not doing that. That didn't go over too well Especially with the younger generation that that is issue oriented that is not voting by gender that is So there's something out there that Is going to fuel this election That's it's it's amazing to me That the prospect of the first Women president is not capturing the imagination of young folks. Is that because we've advanced As a society to the degree where that's not as important as it might have been Eight years 16 years ago. It's not as important as it used to be people want Equality in on their own terms And it's defined And and it comes it's very evident in the social media that I see, you know, I'm I'm old school I love to read the New York Times and the Washington Post and The albuquerque journal not all the time, but You know I like to touch them, you know, but now people get their news differently And and somehow What what is emerging has escaped me Especially trump. I mean, I said, here's the guy that it's insulting veterans And john mccain insulting immigrants muslims Women and and the guy seems to You know stay even and he may win new hampshire I don't know what'll happen beyond that. I think there will be an establishment candidate that emerges You know john casick and I served in the house. He was the budget committee chairman He's a very moderate guy. I don't want to endorse him because he's going to hurt him But but you know, he He may emerge today You know, I always thought that the biggest problems for Hillary clinton and general were jeb bush and casick, but they're not necessarily polling well nationally Although casick may do well In new hampshire and bush may do well in in new hamper. We don't know. I don't know if there are any results yet Yeah, we come back to the the election in a moment. Let me go back to your support of barack obama in 2008 Did did did barack obama end up being the president you hoped he would be? Yeah, you know, I I look at the totality I I like what he's done on on social issues On foreign policy You know, I had some differences on I would have been tougher on syria on Assad On ices. I think more could be done. I like what he did with cuba. I like what he did with ben laden I like what he's done with climate change. I think that's that's terrific Domestically, you know, a lot of it was defensive I think he helped a lot to rescue our economy that was going in the tank, right? I think obama care on the whole is good So But but you know, I was among one of those that said there's something special about this Why I endorsed and I remember talking to my wife my family said, you know, I know I've been with the clinton zone There's something special good about this guy obama But I don't know what it is But but it's good out there. I like how he's inspiring I still think in the long run His legacy will be a good one. Am I disappointed with some things he didn't do? Yeah like everybody else, but I am totally alarmed that the negativity the polarization On on the other side towards just Resolving our problems, right? One of the criticisms Waged at him is that he doesn't stand for anything internationally The United States doesn't have a defined position. Uh, is that a legitimate criticism? You know, um What in the conversation I had with Hillary Clinton when I endorsed her? I said, you know, you were a good secretary of state I think you've got to be clear about what you did without like every single treaty or achievement I think you restored america's role in the world. We were you know in the bush years. We were not Team players. We were not liked. We were isolated. We did the iraq war, which I think was a A mistake. We were not a linden johnson international coalition country and and hillary restored that she also I think was the architect of the sanctions on iran Which have brought iran to the negotiating table those sanctions worked So don't get into you know, you did this treaty with morocco or mexica just Focus on broader issues Um Yeah on isis uh on syria Um Moving towards obama, you know, i'm somebody that cares deeply about latin america I think we should pay more attention to latin america our neighbors in mexico Caribbean, you know, what's happening in central america. I i'm big on africa You know, nobody cares right now, but there's something like seven armed conflicts in africa And there's disease. There's malnutrition. There's sexual abuse. There's And nobody like focuses on on africa, right? I remember When the johnson and hubert humphrey were the first that really focused on africa and they're I mean The pscore did with with kennedy and and and a id but but they talked big about africa I think I think you wrote about that too but you know Today, uh, I i'm disturbed about Where our politics are heading, but i'm not a pessimist. I think eventually When I travel around the world People care about what we think they say, okay, you screwed up here. You did some terrible things there america But but in the end we want you to lead you lead even the chinese say that to us at these conferences on energy So I think we still have that moral authority, but I wish we would exercise it more Yeah Looking back at the the election the presidential race that's playing out Uh as a prominent democrat governor is bernie sanders an acceptable alternative to Hillary clinton as kennedy I think the fact that he's called himself a socialist is is poison in a general election. I mean I i'm being honest I think he deserves credit for raising issues education income inequality health care Although the single payer, you know, I I don't think it'll work, but people want to see Health care done more efficiently There's no question about that and and you know access to everyone In a general election, of course if it's trump We have a shot I think But you know, I've been wrong. I I just I think if it's I think hillary defeats anybody unless it's Kasich bush Maybe rubio. I know there's a fascination with rubio I worry about a rubio florida casick ticket Ohio I worry about those are two big states Um Hillary going in maybe a bit wounded. I think she's still the favorite, but again, as I said I I've been wrong What has the the republican party seems to be in a state of disarray? Why What happened? Well, I'm not a republican expert, but I'll give you my thought And and here's what I think is important if you look at what linden johnson did in civil rights in Environmental legislation what kennedy all the great Pieces of legislation have been passed on a bipartisan basis. It's never one party That was done by democrats and moderate republicans but the moderate republicans And I'm not saying establishment republicans Have have lost a significant amount of power within The republican party. I mean the emergence of the tea party The emergence of very nativist positions apart from the tea party Cable news You fundraise by attacking This is both sides. I'm not just saying So I think that moderate republican Like ronald rey and I on this immigration debate I was in congress and I voted for an immigration bill simpson mesoliac which had three million amnesties for Immigrants and ronald. It was ronald reagan's bill You know george w bush for for all his problems and failings Had what I thought was a very sensible immigration bill which he couldn't get passed in his own party that had Securing the borders, but I had a legalization plan A path to legalization For the 12 million that are here legally And and he couldn't get it done now. I think that the bad result of a donald trump is you know, you can laugh at him you can Say, oh, you know, he's outrageous. He's not gonna but the fact is on immigration He has now scared the republican party into even thinking about a compromise That brings some kind of a path to citizenship or legalization And I think immigration reform regrettably is is kind of doomed in the short term In in the maybe maybe in the longer term and trump has caused that this is why I think he's been A very bad and corrosive influence, but he's got appeal And you know, we're a democracy you've described yourself as an anchor baby You were your parents were living in Mexico City. You were born in pasadena Your father wanted you to be born on american soil and to a large extent you've achieved the american dream What is the right immigration policy? If you could be one of those dictators That you've negotiated with and and implement an immigration policy. What would it be? Well, it would be Yes, we have to secure the borders But if you look at statistics your own border new mexico's border arizona california There's the there's a flow of illegal immigration that is reduced. It's less I mean, we have a lot of border security technology It's it's less but You have to secure the border. I mean we have to enforce our laws But I don't think you build a wall. That's the most idiotic initiative Uh, you know, I used to say in the campaign until somebody stole the line you build a 10 foot wall and they'll build 11 foot ladders The right immigration policy, uh mark, I think is one that has a has three problems. One is securing the border No question about it Second a path to legalization I don't know what that is a path to legalization Um, and then and then lastly, you know, I think more Economic see the the immigration policy is not just mexico. Yeah central america. It's Haiti. It's cuba I think there has to be a consistency in that policy one last thing you know, um And I the white house got mad at me they Because I said, you know these central american kids and families They're here They're leaving because of disease and asylum in central america And you want to go conduct raids and throw them back That's not america They they weren't happy with that. I still believe that I'm sorry Is that Donald trump taking exception to your immigration? It's got an insult or two for you uh Governor, uh predictions for uh for the race. I know this is a very difficult task But if you were to to make predictions for who will Ultimately garner the nominations of the democratic The republican party. What would they be? Well, I I've said hillary clinton on the Democratic side. She'll take a defeat Uh tonight But then you go into south carolina nevada super tuesday She starts accumulating delegates. She already has a majority of super delegates You know, you get the nomination by the number of delegates not by the number of press you get or Or necessarily primary wins in smaller states Um california is the one state where I think sanders could do well And maybe slower down a bit and that's that's a fairly early primary texas here I I remember hillary clinton's very strong, although I think there's a strong sanders movement here But I don't I don't think not enough to beat her so she wins The nomination and I predict that she'll pick somebody like Uh the secretary of urban affairs To be her running mate castor Hispanic young, you know generational change So I think that happens there right on the on the I guess right now the The pundits, I guess I'm I'm sometimes one of them. I think most likely It will be an establishment candidate. I think it'll be rubio Even though he he was terrible in that last debate You could tell and and christie was very skillful and although I have to say that You know, I was kind of rooting for some of the governors As a former governor But but I I do think that you will see rubio And I think if you see kasek and rubio It's going to be a race. It could go either way pardon the really bad pun But why does the establishment candidate in rubio trump the insurgents candidate surgey candidates in in trump and And cruise how does that happen? It happens when The party leadership That controls a lot of the money And the super PACs And the delegates in the big states, you know, they're not a totally powerless that They At some point say to trump, you know We're abandoning you but trump has resources himself right so, you know, this is why he's such a Dominant factor you can't push him aside and say Go away. I mean he hasn't gone away. I don't think he will be the nominee But he may be the king maker that says, okay, it's got to be rubio. It's got to be cruise I'll throw my support. So he's a major player in this election regardless, right We're talking about nominations and as diamond you have been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize five different times Uh, I want to thank you for not only being here tonight, but for all you have done to bring peace to this world Thank you so much governor. Thanks