 And it's just how bad is the national teacher shortage. We don't realize how bad it is. But Carl Ackerman, who has been in academia and who has been a teacher at Punahou for years and years and years can help us appreciate that. There was an article in the Washington Post a few days ago, we're gonna dwell on that a little bit. And it's very scary stuff. Welcome to the show, Carl. Thank you, Jay. Always a pleasure. Carl, I was surprised that how bad this article depicted the problem. On the other hand, when I thought about it, I realized that we are all aware of the vectors. We are all aware of the causes. And we could have, should have, would have realized that all these things that have happened, especially during the Trump administration would lead to a national teacher shortage. Can you give us a thumbnail of at least from your experience and the Washington Post first, how bad is it and how far does it reach? You know, Jay, from that article alone, you realize that almost all major school districts, there are some exceptions, like in the Fairfax County school district in Virginia, which pays its teachers very well. And it's giving some bonuses that the teacher shortage in almost all districts, including, you know, if you're just to mention, you know, Houston, Los Angeles, Honolulu, as three of the examples. I mean, I think teacher shortages are dire right now. And, you know, there was someplace, I think, if I'm not mistaken in Texas, where they're starting to hire college, undergraduate college students, which to me is really pretty dreadful. I mean, not that college students are not great people, but I just don't think they have the wherewithal to be good teachers yet. Right, right, and you know, they're trying anything. But let's look at, you know, the geographical implications of this seems to me just looking at that article, and it's not a surprise, is that the states that have been hardest on teachers, that is the states that have had issues about masks and kids wearing masks, the states that have told teachers they could not teach certain books, those states are losing teachers. Because the teachers don't agree with the policies and the teachers feel that their efforts to educate these kids are being constrained and impeded, and they are looking elsewhere. And you know, guess what? You can find jobs elsewhere. So I think what I get out of it is they are moving to other states that are easier to teach in, salaries are better, you know, public opinion, public attitudes and sensibilities are better. And you know, it's not a problem to get licensed now because it's kind of a recruiting, feeding frenzy around the country. If one state is short, it's gonna raid and poach teachers from other states. And frankly, for that matter, states that have been mean to teachers are, you know, they don't understand, they're gonna lose them. And unless that state that's been mean to teachers changes its policies and funding, they're gonna lose their teachers. And this is the principles and so forth, the administrators understand it and they say farewell. So what you have is a grand migration of teachers from the states that are kind of backward about this to the states that understand they've got to pay more and be kinder to teachers. Am I right about that? Lauren, you know, Jay, the big example, and you and I know this directly, that if you were a New York City public school teacher or you are anywhere around the Boston area, teachers are well paid. I mean, you know, they are paid like other people. I mean, they don't get as much money as doctors or lawyers but they're paid as professionals. And, you know, in other states, you know, which includes almost the entire state of Texas or in Hawaii, they're not really given a living wage. And that's part of the problem. So, you know, you begin with teachers' conditions in most places being very on the edge anyway. And then what you throw in is you throw in COVID. And that was a big sort of unknown. But, you know, if you imagine that teaching is simply a calling, you know, to use that old Protestant Max Weber comment. And it is a calling. I mean, you don't go into teaching to make a lot of money, you just don't. But it's because, you know, you're like me, you're a history guy and you wanna talk about Audubon Bismarck. And I used to have my students go up on the second floor and shout out his name, Audubon Bismarck across the campus. That's a great moment. And just because I thought he was such a, you know, interesting character in history. And, you know, you do this because you really like being with kids. And you add COVID and you sing kids on screens. And then, you know, you're working from home and, you know, the great joy of every teacher is working with kids and being around kids. And if you destroy that in addition to paying them low, in addition to, you know, making them fill out as many public schools districts do, fill out a ton of paperwork and, you know, blame them for everything under the sun for not being good social workers or not taking care of kids who come when they haven't been fed. You know, then you have problems. And let me say this right out front. One of the best things that's going for teachers are teacher unions. Not all teacher unions do all the right things. You know, and there's always a problem with unions taking on fights that might not be in the best interests of whatever their clients are in this case as kids. And I understand all that. But it's rare that something that's good for a teacher is not good for a kid. Even better salaries makes a teacher more comfortable and they don't have to worry about a lot of things. And this is in the long run, better for children. And, you know, you don't think of teachers being greedy because they often spend their own money, which I did my entire career, their own money on providing for kids, of course. And, you know, that was doubly true in the P oil program. You know, if you got to take a kid home, if you got to, if you could have to spend money for a kid's lunch because that kid isn't getting enough to eat, that's what you do. I don't know why, but your story of it, that reminds me of an issue that appeared in front of the neighborhood board in my neighborhood. I was on that board for a few years. And I remember the teachers came to the board and they said, you know, we don't have enough pens and pencils in our schools. So why, right? Right. We don't have enough pens and pencils in public schools. Could you guys, you know, go through your homes and see if you have any spare pens and pencils and can you give them to us so we can give them to the kids? So what? You got to be kidding me. I pay some of the highest taxes in the country and you want me to fund the pens and pencils in the schools. What's wrong with this picture? Well, it's bad administration, it's inefficiency. Though on top of all the problems that, you know, are clear and preventable, you have this fundamental lack of good administration. And I don't think it's limited to Hawaii at all. I think it's around the country. But you know, one thing, Carl, reading that article, I thought, you know, they didn't really pay enough attention to Trump and Betsy DeVos and giving coupons for private schools in little public schools. And, you know, treating the teachers like dirt, especially over the COVID, teachers were under Trump politicized. They were weaponized, they were attacked over books, over masks, over vaccines, all these irrational things coming down on them and they got sick and they were afraid to go to school. And parents, understandably, would do homeschooling, not just because of COVID but because the whole thing was in decline. And, you know, I think it had, tell me if you agree, I think it had a profound effect on our way of looking at public schooling in this country. And private schools became much more attractive at a time when the Department of Education, you know, was national, was down on public schools and was incentivizing private schools. And so the whole thing like turned around to some extent during Trump and COVID and bad books and the like. And I don't think that can be fixed so easily even in the time of Joe Biden. Your thoughts? You know, I had a chance to meet Betsy DeVos several times and I think that she earnestly felt that vouchers and private schools were the way to go. And, you know, there's been no indication that, you know, charter schools have done any better than public schools. You know, I haven't seen any statistical information that indicates if you send your kid to a charter school as well as, I mean, every parent has their choice, of course. They're gonna do better there than in public schools. And of course, we have great public schools across the country. I mean, if we look at our own neighborhoods, if you look at a public school like Kaiser, Kaiser. Only great with great teachers, Carl. If you lose the teachers, you lose the heart of it. This is true. And if you take good care of your teachers, but, you know, even private schools, unfortunately, Jay are getting rid of, you know, teacher housing and they're getting rid of, you know, used to be at most private schools that if you taught at a private school, your own children would be subsidized greatly and sometimes getting free tuition. I know that happened to, for me at Punahou School. But that's no longer true in a lot of cases. And so it's not just an attack on the public sector but also on the private sector. It's like, you know, when you talk about the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable at any school are the staff and the teachers. And, you know, when you start pulling back and not allowing them to have the benefits that they deserve, you know, I've always thought in Hawaii, for example, there's a lot of land at different schools and you should probably build apartments, you know, high-rise, you know, especially if you have a school like Jefferson, which is right in Waikiki, you should have a high-rise there for teachers and give them affordable housing, you know? I mean, it's, this is what private schools is to do traditionally. But, you know, the other thing is, I think that people who, you know, attach themselves to vouchers and things like this are the vouchers really gonna cover the 20,000 plus, maybe 25,000 now at Iolani or Punahou. Is that gonna really happen? And are you gonna get the diversity of kids? I'm not just talking about ethnic diversity. I think that it's really important to have socioeconomic diversity first. Are you really gonna get that at kids? So, I mean, I think that to go back to where the original issue is about shortages, Jay, I really think that the shortages are a product of teachers being in vulnerable positions to begin with all the time. And then, of course, as I said- What does vulnerable mean, Carl? Well, vulnerable means that they are not paid well. They're doing this because they believe that they have, you know, a sort of a God-given, if you were, responsibility to take care of the kids and do well with the kids. And then, what you do with these people is that you pay them a very poor salary and sometimes you take away their medical benefits and things like this. So, you know, that's what I mean by vulnerable. And then you dump COVID on top where you're just seeing your kids on your computer, then, you know, someone comes along with another job, like let's say, you know, a managerial job someplace in an office someplace, let's say, they go back to school and become, you know, registered nurse. You're gonna get paid much better being a registered nurse than being a teacher. Not that, you know, those, I think registered nurses, of course, have their own problems. But, you know, it's, you know, or they, you know, see a business opportunity that they can follow. Suddenly, their salaries are doubled or tripled. That's a hard thing to fight against. And what keeps teachers in teaching is being the kind of hams that we all are to wanting to talk about our subjects and also the great interest in having, you know, really working with kids. And, you know- Yeah, motivation, passion, all those things, you know, those things have been diminished, I think, that's my impression. But, you know, one thing is, I think, you know, just talking about the article and your thoughts here, it seems to me these problems existed before Trump, but Trump exacerbated them. Trump revealed them to us. Trump revealed them to the teachers. And the teachers realized that the community doesn't support them the way it should. It marginalizes them not only in salary, but in general respect. And it has this strange attitude and I mean, millions of parents out there have this strange attitude is, I'll send my kid to school and the teachers will take care of everything. If they're legal obligation, that's what I pay my taxes for. And I am not gonna participate in the educational process. They gotta do it. And they gotta take all the trouble I hand out to them and they are marginalized in terms of my respect with a certain percentage of parents saying, I'm gonna teach my kid myself and I do wanna talk to you about that. But don't you think that the community in general somewhere along the line and it was exacerbated under Trump lost respect for teachers and this is being revealed now? Well, you know, when the highest position in the land is run by someone who really is, you know, puts, you know, without getting into the politics of the situation, who puts front and center just making money being the goal. And, you know, not to say that's bad. It's not bad under capitalism. You know, you wanna make money and you wanna live comfortably. But without any regard for teachers and then to have a secretary of education who was, you know, who earnestly wanted to do better for kids, but you know, basically if she could have, she probably would have destroyed public education in the United States, Betsy DeVos. Even though I think that she deeply cared about kids, but you know, the public school means you go for free and you pay through it through our collective notion of taxes. And there are many great teachers and great schools in our country that are a product of public education. I can think of my sister in Los Angeles who has the Girls Academic Leadership Academy, which is an all girls public school focused on STEM that primarily caters to kids on free or reduced lunch, which means they have challenges economically, obviously. And all these kids go on to college because you know, my sister's a good administrator. She hires good teachers and she supports them. And I think the greatest rule of thumb is that from my experiences, I also taught at Elani where I experienced the greatest administrator ever and that was David Kuhn. And David Kuhn was an Episcopal minister and his motto was that he hired good people and let them do what they needed to do. And he paid them well. And you know, there was a good sort of medical plan, dental plan and retirement plan. Private schools can do that. And I think the needle has shifted in Hawaii for sure. I mean, we have private schools that are way better than public schools and it'll continue that way in other places too. If you want your kid to live a privileged life, send them to a privileged school and then you won't have teacher pay shortages and the like and they'll be treated with greater respect. Now, I come from the public school system in New York, which I consider in those days excellent. I'm not sure what it is today. It's been a long time, but all of my friends went to public school, the private school was just not on the radar. I can't even tell you about the private schools that were worth going to. And then I went to public college, which was excellent at the time. It was the City University of New York City. If you want, I can sing you the song, but I'll hold up on that. In any event, we all loved public schooling. It was challenging. The teachers were dedicated. New York City, as you said before, had a very high priority on teacher why? Because it was a melting pot of immigrants and people understood very clearly well that if you wanna have a decent life, you gotta get educated. And so they made the government provide those experiences for kids. And that went on for as long as I know in New York City. Not all communities have had that benefit. And some of these communities now that are shedding their teachers and sending their teachers away, allowing their teachers to be recruited out from under them, which is happening in the very same states that are going red, that are red in the political news, those that they don't have the same attitude. And that's what I wanted to talk to you about here in the last few minutes of our show. So I'm giving you a National Demographic, Carl. I'm giving you, who did you quote before? Was it Weber? Yeah. I think it's really important that it's like a great state has great art, you know? But a great state also has great education. And if you don't provide great education, you don't have a citizenry that can make good choices in terms of voting, which is the most important thing we do in our civic connection to government. And thus, government will not be as good. So if I give you a state that's not teaching critical thinking that doesn't care about educating kids, then I'm gonna give you a state that doesn't vote very well and doesn't have a government that is responsible and accountable. And I think that's what's happening. And we see it to some extent here, but other states, it's much more. I mean, imagine a state where they vote for people who go to the legislature and turn the election upside down. What's that about? And that's a failure of education, of civics education, of understanding the duty of a citizen, the way the government works. And if you don't have teachers, that gets worse. And homeschooling is not gonna cover it. I guess before we go to the larger macro, what do you think about homeschooling? Is it a viable alternative and the lack of teachers? And I will go again in September. I always go to the private school conference and I think that people who homeschool, in one sense, homeschooling, what it does is it provides a venue for parents who want to do this. It takes an enormous amount of energy. And I think that people who do this have a bent whether it's a religious, I think most often it's a religious bent. They want their kids to be exposed to a single religion that they believe in. And I, that's okay. I mean, that's their right. And I understand that. But I think they can get just as good of education in a public school. And like you, I'm a product of public schools all the way along. And I think that if you take your kid, the problem with homeschooling is, and it's a big problem, is unless you have your kids and a lot of things like soccer and activities like this, they're not gonna get the kind of socialization good or bad that you get in elementary school and junior high school and high school. I mean, imagine you missing all your friends from elementary school, junior high school and high school and all the things that you did in these areas. I mean, it's a certain point making you a better cultural person. And I lament for my own daughters who went to a K through 12 private school because I was teaching at the school, their ability to socialize and to get along with everyone. And that's what they don't, they do. But they didn't have this exposure. They didn't have the exposure that you and I had in a public school where some kids would come with a key around their neck because it was only grandma and grandpa that were taking care of them. They were rough working and they had to go home and open the door for themselves and make it. Well, the problem with public school as you described with this homeschooling is that it's a echo chamber. As you're bouncing off your parents' thought process, their level of education and they're not really qualified to be teachers and to impart to you the kind of thought process that a school at least theoretically is able to impart to you. I agree about the socialization, the diversity. You need, if you're gonna go out into the world soon enough you better get along with everybody. You better understand different groups. But if you only have the echo chamber at home you're missing that and you're not really prepared. I suppose there are homeschool situations which are better than others. But in general, I think that a lot of parents who believe that they are qualified to teach homeschool are not qualified to teach homeschool. What's more interesting even is that now with COVID and mass and vaccines and shootings and killings and terrorism it can happen five states away but you are nevertheless terrified it's gonna happen in your school down the block. So you're afraid to send your kid there. And so a reasonable parent would say, I'm gonna do this at home. I'm gonna do homeschooling even if I'm not really completely qualified to do it. I want my kid to be safe and alive and I don't want him to be subject to this. And I have no confidence in government to protect them there. No confidence at all. We have these second amendment issues. We have these people who need mental health who walk around with assault rifles and we let them do that and then they shoot our kids. Why should I, and the teacher is the same way. Why should I be in a place where I could get killed? It's a target on my back. In addition to all the other problems teachers suffer and the lack of respect and reasonable salaries and all the trouble the parents give teachers in addition, they're at risk for their lives. So if I were a teacher Carl, I would retire immediately. If I were a teacher, I'd go to another state where they were recruiting me with much better benefits and attitude. And I think that's happening. And thus the question that I began to pose earlier is very relevant. What happens in a nation of 330 million people where our schools are declining rapidly in front of our eyes because of government, because of all these social problems that we haven't fixed, the divisiveness, what have you, the guns, the economic issues, the lack of respect. What happens in a country of 330 million people where we don't have qualified teachers to teach our children and PS, it's getting worse. What happens in that country? I think Jay, I think you touched on a key point here and the country dissolves. Actually, that's the answer to your question. But I think that what's important is that we have to get back to a sense of letting the teachers teach what they need to teach. And I think it's extraordinarily important that teachers are allowed to teach US history in the manner that they think is appropriate. I mean, they should teach about the presidents, they should teach about the civil war, they should teach, the great thing that I think keeps people on par with what should be taught are advanced placement tests to give kids when they get into later in high school. I think advanced placement tests are good. So I think that, and people should be able to teach what they teach. And now, unfortunately, education has both been politicized in this way. People are starting to say, you can't teach that and you can't teach this. And I think always think of having taught Russian history in high school for many years. What if someone were to come along and say, well, that Fyodor Dostoyevsky, he was an anti-Semite, so you shouldn't use his books? Well, he produced really great literature. And people in the 19th century, especially the late 19th century across Europe, some of them were anti-Semites. And so, but do you throw out everything because of someone's political or ideological? Well, yeah, look at the whole critical race theory debate. I should debate as to who elevated beyond where it should be. Look at that, telling a teacher he can't or she cannot discuss a given subject, even though it's a clear, established part of American history and culture, it happened. It is the reality. It is the fact. And you as a teacher are told that you can't teach it. And if you do teach it, we're gonna come and get you and prosecute you already. That is really out of the 30s in Germany. It's book burning is what it literally is book burning. And it's not just that you can't teach a critical race theory, it's that the government can come. This is like First Amendment. The government and usually state government can come and tell you what you can teach, what you can't teach, what books you can discuss, what books you can't discuss. It's not just a critical race theory, it's everything. If I were a teacher, I would say, how dare they do that to me? I'm trying to open these minds and they're telling me to close these minds. Well, Jay, let me just make a concluding comment to you about this. And by the way, I have to interject that our new superintendent is Keith Hayashi and he came from a big public high school in Waipahu and he did marvelous things with the kids in terms of getting kids into little academies and getting them working in future professions, whether that's as chefs or as nurses. So I have great hope for the next four or five years with Superintendent Hayashi, I really do. I know where his heart is and it's in a good place and hopefully that feeling will transition into some good work. But let me just go back to the notion of critical race theory and be very brief about this but to also say this, that's a phenomenon. The discussion of it is just ignorant. I just think that that's taken this one specific type of ideology that sometimes comes out of and it's true what the Republicans say that sometimes you have these ideologues at universities that are far off to the left and okay, I get that. But that's not what teachers are teaching. And if you look at the history for African-Americans in this country that were basically held as slaves until 1860, not even being freed in 1860, 1863 but it basically being kept as slaves until the end of the Civil War and then having some rights and then all those rights overturned and then having Jim Crow laws and then having lynchings and only in the early 1960s being able to have some sort of equal access to education of course with that famous 1954 Brown versus Board of Education. And with all that legacy, can you say that in 2022 everyone's on equal footing and we shouldn't discuss that history? Of course we should discuss that history and how during the actually occupation of land that was hold by Mexico or Spain or the taking over of Native American lands all of this is true. Now, can we go back into and does all things know? I don't think we should but we should know the legitimate history and historians are always doing this. You want to find out what really came before and change your monograph or change your books to reflect the newest historical findings. I mean, this is a whole nonsense argument that the right has put up and that Republicans have put up. They are right in saying that critical race theory should probably is too advanced for anybody below college level kids. Of course, of course, no one's arguing that but to teach history in a proper way. And also I may add that we should celebrate George Washington. We should celebrate Thomas Jefferson. We should celebrate Abraham Lincoln but the former two presidents own slaves and we should point out their errors. I mean, that's not hard to do. I mean, if you're- Race is the biggest social issue in the country and how can you turn your back on the history of it? That's an extraordinary. You know, when I get out of this though, Carl and I like to ask you one more level of things here. Let's take a hypothetical state, okay? And I'm, you know, you and I can pick a few. It wouldn't be hard to find one that fits the profile. Here's the state that, you know, we're gonna outlaw abortion as fast as we can in all ways. We're gonna dump on teachers. We're gonna dump on critical race theory. We're not gonna pay them very well but we're gonna lose them. They're gonna leave. And we're gonna have another kind of population. Poor people cannot afford to go to other states for an abortion. So they have the kids and if that's what you want from your religious point of view you have a lot of poor families having kids who will be poor and not educated. And there was one article in the paper recently that pointed out that the very same states that are arguing for, well, that are making abortion illegal and not providing additional social benefits, you know, social safety net benefits to the parents or the women who are forced to have these children. So they have more children but they have the same or a less benefit. And you think about that, what that does on a demographic basis. So my hypothetical state has more people, less educated. And of course, if they're smart, they'll leave the state but a lot of them will not leave the state for economic reasons. They'll stay there, they'll suffer through it. And over time that state and many like it will be way behind the states that have attracted the teachers way behind the states that have allowed a full discussion of American history in their classrooms and civics and government and Max Weber. Well, you know, and that will give us further divisiveness. What I'm saying is that divisiveness creates a situation where we get more divisiveness, more of a divide. And I think that's where the country is heading. So when you have divisiveness beginning more divisiveness, where do you go with this? You have two countries that are even more accentuated, more different than they are today. Well, you know, let me just begin where you begin, Jay. You know, this whole abortion issue is, you know, first of all, I'm not a medical doctor, although I do volunteer at one of our large hospitals here in Hawaii. And my feeling about this is that, you know, this is really another one of these questions that's sort of absurd because what this really comes down to is what a physician and a client, their client, their patient has to decide because it's a medical condition, being pregnant is a medical condition. And as far as I'm concerned, I try to not get in the way nor do I think anyone should get in the way between a doctor and their patient. I mean, I think that's really kind of craziness on the first level. And, you know, whether life begins where I do, you know, that's besides the issue. I think that I understand why people have concerns here, but I think that what the doctor and the patient should determine between them is what's good for the patient in terms of survivability and what's good in the long run for the patient. I mean, that's where this nucleus should be and it's gotten lost in a lot of other things. But I think you're right. I think the same states that don't provide for education and for teachers also don't provide for other things. What's happening is those kids in the neighborhoods that you grew up in, Jay, and that are around Boston, et cetera, and some of East Coast cities that have very good educational standards for their kids and then New York is one of the best, those kids are well educated and you could still get a great education, not only in New York, but in California too. There are city colleges, there are state colleges that are universities. And for in-state people, a lot of it is affordable. Still, the University of California is getting more expensive, but still for a lot of other places, the state system, the junior college system is very affordable. And so, we're getting two tracks. And if you don't allow people to have education, I mean, the whole basis of our democracy and our constitutional framework is based on people, well-educated and literate group of people. I think that both from the right and from the left, people should allow people to be educated and especially educated in US history and civics. And I don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating US history and saying that this is a great country and we have problems, but people can have the ability to better themselves. I still believe in the American dream, how though it's becoming harder for people. And I think that we should celebrate our constitution. We should celebrate our bill of rights. We should celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. and Cesar Chavez and all the people who have fought for really extending these rights to other groups of people who were, they may have been denied. Well, one thing seems clear, Carl. You know, these revelations that the GOP has had in the past few years, these policies that it has adopted and forced on others are missing one important element. And it becomes clear from that article, it becomes clear from our discussion today that they're missing caring for the children. They're missing caring for the children as those who will, those who have the future in their hands, those who will take our society to the next generation, to the next decade even. And the GOP seems to have forgotten that. They don't care. They don't care about the safety of the classroom. They don't care about the education of the kids. They don't care about the safety of the kids against pandemics. So what I get out is this extraordinary gap in the political consciousness of the GOP organizations and individuals. They have forgotten about the kids. And that is a lethal dose in a democracy. What do you think? I think that's true. And I think that, you know, if you stop with this, you know, bashing of books and bashing of critical race theory and leave that stuff alone because it's not really producing anything good. And instead you talk about how private schools and public schools can partner like in the Pueo program, the Ka'i program here in Hawaii and how to better kids' futures and basically really improve education for kids and allow them to do great things. And I mean, you know, it's not just, there have been social reformers who have tried to pump money into education, but they pump money in and then the money has gone mostly to educational administrators as opposed to getting to the child. And these programs I mentioned Ka'i and Pueo, there was a high percentage of the money that got to the kids, that money was spent on education and teachers and classes for the kids. And that's where I think we can have some great improvement with public-private partnerships. And that was a Betsy DeVos idea, but that's a good one. But you don't attack public education. I mean, you and I are products of K through doctorates, you have a law ministry of public education all the way through. And it was a wonderful public education. And I, you know, I savor the fact that I was able to attend the University of California, Berkeley, which is a public institution. And it's a great one. And all of our institutions could be great like this. And, you know, in Hawaii, we have Kaiser High School, which is a very good public high school. And the point is that going back to what you said about parents is that, you know, when I ran the Pueo program, what was clear to me is that parents are invested in their children's education. And that means showing up at PTA meetings. And it means, you know, focusing on what a kid is learning, you know, and this is true of many immigrant families in Hawaii and also in the rest of the part of the United States, then the kids succeed. And so I think we have to draw on entire communities, but we can't, as you mentioned, if you represent a Republican administration and you don't give teachers money or, and you start to, you know, demand certain things of teachers while taking away great salaries, while taking away salaries that are approaching medium level. And you start to withdraw all these things for teachers. Well, of course you're gonna have a teacher shortage because teachers can't survive everything, you know? And if you keep dumping on teachers, that's the issue. And- Well, you know, there's another part of it too. I just want to mention, it just occurred to me from what you're saying. Okay, A, teachers are moving, they're moving from state to state. And where the shortage is most accentuated is where the states have lost teachers to other states which offer better recruiting packages. No, no surprise. But there's the person who was in school and who was making career choices. He was saying, let's see, what can I do with my life? You know, and in your day and mine, we could say, look, I would like to teach kids. I would like to improve their lives and give them the prospect of doing better than their parents did. You know, the old immigrant diversity prospect. That's not happening. I mean, it's that, would you ever move to one of those ex-states I mentioned, if you cared about your kids, born or unborn? No. And if you were a corporation thinking of relocating or adding a unit in some state like that, you'd have to consider that people, executives, especially middle management, are not gonna come to that state because that state is not a good state for kids, for educating their kids. So, I mean, it has all kinds of secondary implications to our society. And who in his right mind these days would choose, I'm sorry to say this, Carl, I know you've invested your whole life in it. Who in his right mind these days would invest his education, his time, his future, his career? His economic success in education. Maybe not so many as before. Carl, we're out of time. We gotta go now, but we'll come back because this particular discussion leads to all kinds of other issues. So, there's more to come, Carl. Thank you, Jay. And again, it's always a pleasure working with you and you always rise to the knighthood of menshood. So, thank you, Jay. Thank you, Carl. Dr. Carl Ackerman, really appreciate you coming on the show. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.