 We're back for live. It's given Monday morning. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech and Dan Figleaf, retired Lieutenant General from the United States Air Force joins us today. Welcome to the show, Dan. Thanks, Jay. Good to be back again. I'm kind of a frequent flyer. I appreciate the opportunity. You are a frequent flyer indeed. You have a multiple number of shows on Think Tech. You're a director of Think Tech and you have been around in so many ways. Today, we're doing military in Hawaii. In fact, you, I think you said on the Council, the Military Affairs Council of the Chamber of Commerce, which organizes this show. And today, we're going to commemorate and talk about Zaps Lattaper, who was a Navy four star here in the fleet. Had a remarkable career. We're going to talk about how you have a remarkable career in the United States military. But let's talk about Zaps Lattaper first. He was a four star, had a really interesting career, was an interesting individual, an example of leadership and kindness, both in terms of making it happen and in terms of dealing with people. But how would you characterize him? You knew him and you could say he was your friend. Well, I think the best way to characterize him is we, many of us have struggled for words at his loss because he's such a special guy is that anybody who was his friend might have felt like they were his best friend, because he had a way of really connecting with people that was remarkable. Four stars are generally pretty remarkable. They're special people, not regarded as a three star. And I'll admit up front that there's a big difference between somebody becomes a four star and three stars were not mere three stars, but they're generally special. He was one of the most special and one of the best human beings I've ever known. He's a very friendly guy. His office as one of the trustees of the Tamil estate was in Pioneer Plaza. Our studio was in Pioneer Plaza. We saw him all the time and there was never a time when he wasn't so warm and friendly. He was just a great guy to have there in the building and there around. Helped you feel good. He was a feel good guy. Feel good, but do good too. I mean, he wasn't just warm and fuzzy. I've probably sat in well over 100 various meetings with him and back when I was in the military here and he retired in the counselor corps, which was very active in the Pearl Harbor Aviation Museum, all those. And I was reflecting, getting ready for this discussion that I never heard Admiral Zapp get grumpy to anything unkind or anything irrelevant and not worth saying. He was a positive force, but he was also a force. And frankly, I can't claim the same type of participation in all meetings. I can get grumpy. He just made everything he was involved in better. And I really mean that. Yeah, I told you before the show began, I was reading the use of AI by the United States military and that matter competing with the use of AI by China. And it struck me that one thing that Zapp was fully aware, fully conscious of, was technology. And I tell you that because I want to tell a short story about his first appearance on ThinkTech, which has got to be, let's say, 15 years ago. The story is this, it was a Gulf War and he was about to ship off to the Gulf War and he went to Radio Shack, too bad Radio Shack, no more. But I think he went to Kailua Radio Shack if there was one there and he bought a dish and he brought it to the ship. He was commanding the ship at the time and he had the crew paint it gray, navy gray and put it on the fan tail and they steamed off to the Gulf War. And every morning, the brass would meet on aircraft carrier there and then he would join them and take the launch and join them. And they always wondered why Zapp knew more than any of them about what was going on right now, real time, assuring the war. Come to find, he had this Radio Shack dish and he was getting CNN and CNN was pushing all this information about the war that reported by the name of Deborah Wong, as long as I remember. And there you go. And they were so impressed with him that he had the, what do you want to call it, out of the box thinking that could grab what was consumer technology and make it work for the military. And I'll never, ever forget that story. That makes perfect sense, as you know the man, because he's very thoughtful about what will work. He didn't get parochial or constrained by the prior notions, he wondered what would work best and solve the problems that needed, needed solving in any realm in the military, in business, in the community affairs, the very solutions area. Well, the other time he appeared was when we did an independent state program and we had a number of retired military come down and tell us why they cared about Independence Day. And I will, and he was remarkable in his rendition of that. I told you before how it touched me. He was extremely passionately, emotionally patriotic. And during Vietnam, he was in the Vietnam theater, he was in the L4 number one and he was in, he was, he was in, he only retired one in only a few years ago, 96, I want to say. Yeah, I gotta say that's more than a few years ago now. Thank you for that. And he was ferrying a fighter from the east coast of Vietnam. And if it just so happened that he was flying over the United States mainland at the time of the, of sunset on July 4th. And as, and he described this, it gives me chicken skin even now as he flew west, toward the west coast, people were setting off fireworks for July 4th. And he could see them below. He could see the whole country doing July 4th fireworks. It was a fantastic experience to see the whole, the whole country celebrating July 4th all together. And he described that in words and feelings. I will never forget how it touched me and how supremely patriotic he was, which is an element about, about officers in general in the military and senior officers, especially, you get to invest your life, you get patriotic. And I know that feeling from my own time in the service, but he was so emotional about it. I think the distinction to one of the many things that makes made Edmonds app special was he was thoughtfully patriotic. It wasn't that he denigrated any other nation, any other nation. It's that he recognized the special opportunity and therefore responsibility that the United States have. Very active in the Council for Honorary Council of Slovenia. And so, you know, he was, he represented all that's good about America. And like most combat veterans, I think I told you this story, Jay, when we're getting ready to do this, that the most compassionate people I met are those who've seen real combat, especially senior leaders who've seen it over a career. And that was a very warm, compassionate man. At the same time, great presence under fire. I looked up the famous forestall, the carrier forestall fire of 1967. He was 25 and a young lieutenant at the time. And he played a role in the sense that he documented all the things that happened over that day and a half or so. It took him to put out the fire both above decks and below decks. And he became an important member of the team that understood the fire, that understood the lessons of the fire. Extraordinary event. Were you in the service then? Do you remember that fire? No, not yet. So I came on active duty in late 1974. But he's a great example of somebody who survived proud by fire, both on the forestall literally, and then as an A-6 pilot flying in Vietnam and he passed every test. And as good a guy as it was, it isn't that he wasn't proud. He was very proud of, for example, having a thousand carrier landings of being one of the first new pilots to fly the A-6 just out of flight school. He was very proud of his corvette. As a Mustang guy, I was offended by that. But he was proud but not prideful. He took great joy in life and the silly pleasures of life and the very serious pleasures of life, more in the serious pleasures. But he wasn't, you know, he was just an exemplar for all of us. If I could be more of anything, I'd be more like my daughter who has been on pigments of course, and he's just not something being or more like zap. Can't because I'm me. But he was a great example in every way. And Jay, as I said, four stars are, you know, that's something to get that far. The pyramid is extremely steep to get up that far. But after the Navy, he was successful at everything he did. And he did a lot of different stuff. When I first met him back in 2005 as the deputy commander, you know, specific commander, we were talking to him about a business venture that he embarked on. But it's not even mentioned in his bio or any of the tributes. It was remarkable. And he clearly got it one after it with great enthusiasm and succeeded at that. And he was successful as a philanthropist and a community leader and as a husband and father. Just a truly a complete man and a complete success. Yeah, his bio shows you he went to so many schools to took degrees. And when he and when he was out of the service, he sat on so many boards and was involved in so many companies. At the same time, if you if you look at his, you know, his bio is this is my reaction. This is certain abiding modesty about it. Yeah, it is a modesty. And indeed, that's consistent with the way it was to say hello to him in the lobby of the Pioneer Plaza building. He was infinitely modest. You looked at him and you shook his hand and you introduced him to somebody. He was there was no sign of all his achievements. He was just an ordinary nice guy. I met a neighbor of mine. He's a neighbor I've communicated with by email. Because of the security guy for a neighborhood board. So, you know, but anyway, he was one of Admiral Zapp's golf partners when they had no play golf. And every time I communicated with his friend, John John would tell me how humble Zapp was to him because he had just been an enlisted soldier in Vietnam, John had. And he said the four star treated me like like a peer all the time from the beginning. And he did that with everybody. Like I said, I think all of us think maybe we were his best friend because he made us all feel that way. So, you know, we were talking before about this. I like to talk to you about some of these seniors. They're so interesting and it makes such a great contribution not only to retire in Hawaii, but to the community in general, to the country. They're special people. It wasn't an accident that they became seniors. In most cases. Person company included. So, you know, I guess the one thing that struck me was he didn't go to the Naval Academy. You get to be a four star without going there. And the other thing that struck me was I asked you, you know, does does a young officer decide early on that he wants to be a four star and go for the brass ring. And you said, no, that would that would work the other way. Yeah, I said, actually, that's the surest way to not make generals to think you want to be a general or an Admiral. But I suppose there are people like that. But it's such a long path, you know, your average one star Admiral or one star general probably has served 2425 years. And if you can imagine what I happen to you emotionally and physically, if you spent 24 years chasing the brass ring. And it's it's so rare. And this is a good way to comment on zap and some of the other folks our island has been blessed with as long term residents. But it's such a hunt requires so much good fortune and what when you are selected as a new one star general or one star Admiral, I'm sure the Navy does the same as the Air Force. One of your admonitions is to recognize how many people there are that are better than you and more qualified you that didn't make it. And it's striking as you look at the thank you notes that you get or the I'm sorry, the congratulatory notes, you think, boy, this guy would have been better choice than me. I mean, if you're any kind of a person, there are some people you think about that. And the same is true from my perspective is for those of us who don't make four stars, that guy, Admiral Zap, Admiral Hayes, Admiral Fargo, General Jones, these are all four stars who live in Hawaii. Yeah, I know I can see why they made it and I understand why I didn't. And some of it's luck and timing. Yeah, these are people who dedicate themselves to their country who perform at the highest level in the most difficult jobs. And therefore, the President of the United States, whoever that might be at the time puts their trust and confidence in them to lead at the highest levels. With all of that, with all of that retiring into the civilian community after, you know, three decades or more of, you know, being an officer, a senior officer in the United States military, that's somewhat traumatic, isn't it? I remember in the Coast Guard, I would consult with some of the brass that was leaving at the end of their careers. And they were, for the most part, quite concerned about whether the skills they had achieved in the service would be useful in the military. And I don't always comfort them about that. No, no problem. You will see how, you know, your skills put you above head and shoulders against most people. But tell me what it's like. Well, I think it's a big change, Doug, that's a clear statement of the obvious, that you have to be prepared for. The best way to be prepared for it is to recognize how fortunate you were to make it that far and not be bitter about whatever job you didn't get, because everybody doesn't get some job at the end, you know, and everybody is asked. And it's kind of a funny thing when you're done as a general or admiral, they just kind of say, dude, you're done and you're not getting another job and it's time to move on. And if you feel bad about that, first of all, I think it's crazy, but it's also very unhealthy. I was fortunate to have a bad example. I watched Brett Farr's retirement from my cherish Green Bay Packers and he did not handle that well. That was the same year I retired from the Air Force, so I knew not to cry at the ceremony or feel sorry for myself. And this is a sort of a small point, but I think it's very important. The advice I give anybody retiring from the Air Force or another branch of the service is for at least a month between what you're doing now and what you're doing next, do something completely consuming and not connected. So I shipped my Harley-Davidson to Seattle, Washington, and rode to the four corners of the United States, 8,532 miles, yes, I remember. Wow. Yeah, in 17 days. And it was therapeutic because once that was done, now I had to go about getting a job, deciding on what my next professional life was going to be. But you do have to kind of have a clear break. And then as you said, Jay, I mean these guys kind of like Zapper and the others that I mentioned, they can do anything. I mean, they've proven it because no job in the military is the same. That's one thing that I found the defense industry I worked in that didn't appreciate as well as it should have is you can expect success in different endeavors because every job you get is different than the last one. It's at a different level. It might be flying in different aircraft. It's always in a different location or almost always. And so, you know, I'm firmly convinced I could be a Major League Baseball Manager. Probably couldn't, but you know, but there's no. I'm sure you could. I'm sure you could. So, go ahead. So, I mean, you and Zapp, you both made the decision to retire in Hawaii and you could retire anywhere in the world. It could have had your gear moved. You could have established whatever it takes and settled anywhere. And so, you have to sit at least for a little while and think, where am I going to retire and am I committed to that place? So, why did you retire here? And if you know, why did he retire here? Yeah, I know Zapp loved Hawaii. So, I'm not going to presume to speak for him, but I'll talk about briefly about my journey. I actually retired and went back to Virginia and worked for the big defense company, knowing that I'd come back to Hawaii. But what brought me back to Hawaii was to be the director of the Daniel K. Inouye Pacific Center of Security Studies. That number one, because that was a job I'd lusted after because it's such a remarkable institution. And two, because it got me back to Hawaii. The most important thing to notice all of the senior officers that I mentioned who elected to settle in Hawaii. I don't think I mentioned Dave Bramlett for the Army, Forster, but they all are making some form of sacrifice to live in Hawaii. And for starters, it's going to be harder to see your kids and grandkids generally. And that matters. And your friends and your family. And if you got aging parents, whatever, we all know that we live here, that it's a choice. For those retiring Forsters, it will make the financial aspects of being a retired Forster more challenging. Because Forsters, because they've succeeded so well, have such a broad knowledge and the connections, they're in great demand back in the mainland. There's less opportunity here. Now Admiral Zap did very well because he's really good at stuff. But it's a challenge. So they do it because they love Hawaii and they care about Hawaii. So it's not just, man, I love walking around in shorts without socks on, which I do. They develop an affection for the islands, the people, the needs of the community. I want to give credit to an organization that I think is really largely responsible for that. And that's the Chamber of Commerce, Military Affairs Council. Because while they're on active duty, they interact with that. They get to know folks like Jen Sabasa. I'm sure you know who will probably kick me in the butt for giving a shout out. But that connection is woven during their time on active duty. And it's a meaningful weave. It's not just a feel good social sort of thing. What are the needs of the community? What are the needs of the military and the community? And so that draws them back here. And I know I'm rambling a bit, Jay, but I found that I think it's pretty common that when you leave after 33 years of service, if you just go get a job and make money, it can be a great job for a great company. Mine was you have a void. You have a service deficit. You're used to serving. And it becomes a need. It's not just, there may not be any goodness in my heart, but it was what I had done. I think there is, but that is not necessarily it. It's a selfish need to feel like you're contributing to society. And the connections we build in Hawaii make some of us choose to do it here. Yeah, well, I want to talk about community. And I'm thinking specifically of Pacific Forum. Matter of fact, we have Carl Baker of a specific forum coming on the show every now and then. And he's a great guest. And Pacific Forum has its Board of Governors meeting every year. And the military is a good percentage of the members and the supporters of Pacific Forum. It represents, in my view anyway, the community of military leaders who have been here, who have grown up with Pacific Forum, and who formed the nucleus of that community. And I wonder, you know, whether that community is part of it, because that will allow a retired military leader to rub shoulders with his peers, with people he knew in the service through his career, and maybe others he didn't. And, you know, establish a kind of connection not only to Hawaii, but to the community in Hawaii where people understood what it was like to be in the service. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just those service connections in the Pacific Forum, because we, but we do, you know, the active duty officers do interact with PAC Forum, with APCSS, with East West Center during their time here. I think there's something else that's at least as important. They find that it's different here. You have a different perspective. The white perspective is a unique element of American strategic thought. We're not constrained by the swirl of politics in Washington, D.C. And I did a figments on reality episode on the Washington problem that's, I'm not, okay, I am, denigrating the thinking in Washington regardless of political party, because it's self-reinforcing. And here, where we're a little freer to think outside whatever box may be constraining your strategic concepts. And because it's more directly informed by interaction with other partners and competitors in Asia Pacific, I think it's a better place to think and do things about American security. And I know I found that attractive. You know, space, the director of APCSS, even though it was a Department of Defense institution, we did things differently, because we're in Hawaii. And modestly, I would say the team, did things better and to be more effective, because they weren't confined to conventional quote unquote wisdom. Yeah, I could do a show with you about Asia Pacific, Santa Cruz security studies. I remember meeting you and interviewing you there while you were there. Absolutely. First time back in the studio when we did studio stuff, right? Anyway, so, you know, what, what SAP Slatepper's passing is somehow emblematic of the aging of that community. Yeah. And I don't know if it happens as much anymore, whereas senior officer will say, well, it's a good choice for me, I'll go to Hawaii. I'll engage with that community. And, you know, there's old clubs and golf courses. And as you say, it's a good, strategic place to do your thinking if you're in retired military. But query, are there as many people retiring into Hawaii as there used to be? And what's the future of that? And what is his passing mean in terms of the, you know, the energy, if you will, of the retired military community here in Hawaii? It means those of us who are still here have to pick up our game because we lost a big leader. It means that we, we, the broader community in Hawaii on a wabu that's engaged in military civilian dialogue, and it goes beyond that has to recognize that folks like us are getting older and we need to continue to refresh the gene pool, because it's good, good for Hawaii. It's good for the security of the United States. And there, you know, there's a, we have a real core of those senior leaders, some are younger, some are older, but we need to keep refreshing it. I think it's important, as I said, for Hawaii and for the country. And those leaders in that community provide a lot of valuable nutrition, not only to the business and the nonprofit community of which you guys are always serving and so many, you know, NGOs and nonprofits and, and for that matter, profit companies, because of your leadership experience and skills. So you provide a certain nutritious, you know, contribution to the society in Hawaii. And what I find interesting is that there's, there's another side to the yin and yang there. I mean, it goes back to the overthrow and there's a certain amount of resentment about the American military, even though fact is that, that the Navy was in Pearl Harbor in the year 1850, way back when. And, and also, you know, we had the Massey case back in the back in the 30s, I guess it was, that alienated people about the military. But the bottom line is the military and the community in general in Hawaii, they're inextricably intertwined. It's part of Hawaii culture as much as so many other things. And my concern I'm interested in your reaction is I want it to stay that way. I want, I want these senior officers like you and Zapps Lattaper to be here, to retire here, to be active here, to make your contribution to the community in terms of nonprofits and community boards and organizations, to organizations like APC, SS, and of course, the business community. I don't want that to decline because I think it's really critical going forward to remain, remain viable as a community. What are your thoughts about all that? Well, I agree. Obviously, it'd be kind of silly to disagree with something as well intended is that I'm confident it will. As you said, we're intertwined naturally because we're on small islands and with as many military and civilian communities, they're going to be intertwined. The question is, are they positively intertwined? And if the leaders of the military aren't appreciative, understanding, and respectful of the environment they brought into social, cultural, and everything, then that, and it's just this forced interaction, that's not good. But with senior retired leaders here, and this was my own experience back in 2005. When I came back to Hawaii as the Pacific Command Deputy Commander, folks like Admiral Fargo and Admiral Slatterpurr and other leaders put their arm around you and say, Fig, okay, this is really important. You need to go to this event or you ought to talk to these folks. And it was gentle, but firm advice that this is how, this is what works in Hawaii, which isn't necessarily what works in name and other state. I won't pick on because it seemed like it was picking on it. And I had great experiences in places I was stationed. But what works in Hawaii is not necessarily the same as what works elsewhere. And those retired senior leaders who generally know each other, quickly come to know them and who are obviously, or at least to me, worthy of our respect, steer senior leaders in the right direction. And, you know, we've got, you know, we have a lot of repeat offenders, I say in jest that term, but a lot, many of us come back. I've been at Hickam as a, as a captain when I, you know, back in the 80s and came back here as a general, as a three store. So we're not new to it, but things are different. And those retired senior leaders influence the integration of new senior leaders into the community. And very important. Well, you know, this whole discussion has been kind of a eulogy for Zapp Flat upper, looking at it from various points of view and all that. And we have a minute left. And I wonder if there's anything else we should say that you would like to say in the way of, you know, concluding the eulogy, so to speak. I mean, to speak, for example, to people who didn't know him, what should they know? What should they remember? What, what makes him special? What was the, you know, the special sauce, the special contribution that should be in the public memory about Zapp Flat upper? It was, I think it's what we should all strive for. He was a good person. I mean, he's incredibly talented and very charismatic, funny as can be. But he exited goodness and kindness. Our wife felt it so well here in Hawaii. Doesn't mean he couldn't have an edge. As I said, he was funny and he was proud of his accomplishments. But he started with being a kind, thoughtful human being. And that's something we can all work on with Zapp as the example. Yes. And there are a lot of officers in the military that are like that, but he was the example. Yes. He took that to new levels and we greatly appreciate even a few minutes with him over, over time. Unless many of us do. Dan Figleaf, United States Air Force retired Lieutenant General joining us today to talk about Zapp Flat upper recently deceased four star Navy Admiral here in Hawaii, a part of our community. Thank you so much, Dan. Thank you, Jay. Aloha. Aloha.