 Okay, everyone. Nice, Nick Farr. He just ran downstairs, so please let him get some air first. Okay, check. Hello. All right, good evening, everybody. I'm glad to see that this is a packed room. I'm really sorry I'm late, but they wrapped me in this. I'm actually not kidding. At the worst possible time, I think all of... Well, I kind of whispered in Honk's ear, like, it's time to stop making sex jokes, and it's all one, and time to get me, because I actually have to be on stage somewhere else, and I was like, oh, I'm sorry, we didn't know that, I'm sorry. And so him and Bug Blue pick me up off the stage and then carry me off, rip it off, and then I come running down here. Don't give them any ideas like that. Okay. I really hope it's not, but it probably is already. It probably is already on YouTube. Okay, anyway, thank you. I just wanted to thank, again, Shack Space for being so awesome. I know I'm wearing a Rumsite Labour Lab coat. Can we get a round of applause for these guys? Seriously. I'm very honored to be here and to give this talk. This is exactly what we were talking about at the camp, and I'm glad to see that Shack Space has taken the ball, picked it up, and started running with it, because as I was trying to explain at the camp, today's networks are evil. They're based on old technology. This is exactly the kind of thing I was saying. We should... You're one behind. I'm one behind? That's the next one. That's the current one. Okay. Sorry, I apologize. And I was just saying, why don't we have connections everywhere? Why is it so difficult to get connected? Why are people who live in rural areas, who aren't in heavily urban areas, have really fast connectivity just because they don't live in the right place? Why is the old technology not allowing us to have better? Why is the old technology not allowing us to have absolutely unlimited internet everywhere that's fast, that's high quality, at a very affordable price? Why is the connection technologies that we use today based on old business models? I personally don't think that makes any sense. And I'm an accountant. I mean, the networks today, they're not open. They're proprietary, they're old fashioned, and they're insecure. I mean, that's what we spend most of our time talking about at these conferences. But, am I... Okay, when you're supposed to give an important talk, do not let the people who are your friends wrap you in saran wrap. Okay, I should probably look there. But things are changing for the better. I believe that there is this better solution out there. But, like I was saying at that camp, we're going to have to do it. Because it's not going to be the people that are providing these services today that are going to bring us into the future. I mean, the kinds of people... the kinds of people that build systems that help us explore the moon and don't go back for 40 years cannot give us the network technologies that we know are possible. That everybody in here, I believe, knows are absolutely possible. We're going to have to do it ourselves. Right here. Everybody attends these congresses and hacker conferences all over the world. We know science. We do science. A lot of companies do science, but they do it not for the love and for the passion of it like we do it, but for the purpose of building the network. Building the network of tomorrow will have to happen in this community. We'll have to get to work doing it. At the same time, I believe this community is also much more flat and much more transparent than the communities that are currently providing our network services. Not only are we the people who are designing a lot of these systems, but we're also users. We're much more well acquainted with the user base. We also believe everybody should benefit. All of these open source operating, free software, free everything, free culture, creative commons, all of those sorts of things are powered by communities like ours. We believe everything that we create, everybody should benefit from. And we're very good at distributed networks. There's a lot of well-established distributed networks that I believe this community has had a very big role in building, creating, and using every day. IRC is a perfect example of this. That's how we connect a lot of these talks with people who are watching the streams at home, through IRC, and a lot of us use IRC every day. Skype example, it's evil, but it's a distributed network. Tor, another perfect example for trying to protect our privacy, trying to protect rights that a lot of people, a lot of these people that are providing these services are trying to take away from us very, very incrementally for profit or for political purposes. SETI at home is another perfect example of a distributed network for science. Freifunk, oh, sorry. That's something that this community directly has a hand. Can I just get a round of applause for those guys that people are trying to provide free Wi-Fi because distributed mesh networks are hard. And of course, peer-to-peer networks like Bitcoin and importantly, Bitcoin. You know, making money, the transfer of value, that's something that this community, through Bitcoin, has done really well, has been experimented with and has actually put into practice and made use. Basically, all of these technologies, things that we're developing, what do we want? World domination, right? Am I right? Right? And we can do that through information. And we're doing that every day through sharing information and making fast, cheap, secure... I didn't do that intentionally, I apologize. Fast, cheap, secure and reliable ways of making network connections accessible. That much is not a joke. That's something that we're working on and that we're doing every day. And even those of you, I know a lot of people at conferences like these will approach me and say, you know, I don't really feel like a hacker. I, you know, I don't do certain things. I'm not, no, that's all of those excuses and I've been saying this for years. All of those excuses are invalid. Every single person in this room, no matter what you assess your technical capabilities as, can help, can join, can make a difference. Doing it very, very easily today. It all starts with a very simple small device right here. And these guys are going to tell you all about it. Thank you guys so much for letting me open this up. This project means very, very much to me and I hope after this presentation it'll mean a lot to you. Give these guys a huge round of applause for making the first step, the first step in what will be a giant leap for hackers and a giant leap for mankind. Thank you very much. Thank you, Nick. We decided when Nick called upon us that there is a need for space and communications in space. There were three hackers sitting on an express train to Berlin and we've had the giant brain fart. We put ourselves to the task and decided upon our goals for the next few months and that would be understanding, building, owning and all that open sourcing a distributed ground station network. Of course there's a couple of short-term tasks ahead of us which are, first of all, receive some signals, then decode the signals, understand what's in there and then finally record and store them for later data processing. So there is a long way ahead of us and we've identified a couple of things that we need to understand first. Satellite communication protocols. I bet there are a few. I don't know any yet. There's lots of high frequency and antenna stuff, analog and digital filters, all kinds of electronics and nastiness, also including mathematics and cryptography, that we still have to learn a lot about. So how do you get started? It's a really, really big project and there's one article, though not hardware related but software centered. I would really like to recommend all of you reading if you're working on anything that's bigger than one page of code. It's a really awesome article by Jeff Walroth at Wofford on how to not get stuck and the basic idea is break it down into a small packet that you can work on as possible. And as I said before, knowledge is purely optional because I can tell from my own experience I don't know anything about HF or antennas. I built them anyway. So what do we want at Ground Station 4? We want to do everything. I have to admit that IO League in the Volmich South sounds a lot more awesome than an all-purpose device. And that will not work, so we will work on something that is more like Unix and Power Rangers. Many, many small things that you can combine to something big and awesome. So what's the most basic thing that we need in a distributed system that we want? It's timing and synchronization because there's no point at all in measuring anything if you don't know the exact time that something had happened. So we need high accuracy. Let's arbitrarily select better than a microsecond. An easy to use interface because we want to have anything exchangeable because, well, we will make errors and failures along the way and we just want to unplug something and replace it with something better along the way. Then, well, it has to be bigger and better over time. Yeah. Okay, time source it is and we've identified three candidates and relocate will take over from here. So, three candidates, NTP, DCF77 and GPS and about NTP, NTP, we can say it's too simple and requires a permanent internet connection and so we said, ah, skip that. And we went to DCF77 which is the thing we know in Germany as Funkur and it looked like a very simple task with this protocol because you get 59 bits per minute and with every coming bit you know exactly you should know exactly now the second starts and this seems like a good thing for synchronization but it works only in central Europe on other continents there is other systems that work similar but they are not synchronized to central clock source and there's also things that the receivers you can buy usually very sensitive to touching people being around them they just tend to stop working after a while and then start again, it was a great mess. So, we decided to use GPS because there's existing hardware to do it it's possible to use it almost everywhere and since we also need to know where we are we can use it for this purpose too so we would have needed it anyway and some GPS modules, I think even most of them have super accurate pulls per second pin that goes up once a second. The problem with GPS is that it's not independent of the current Earth politics and if current Earth politics allowed it to be it would be more accurate and more cool and it's also very high frequency stuff with very strange physics and yeah. So, we decided to try it out with something we knew that would work, just plug it together and see what it does. We used an Arduino Mega for this which has four hardware serial ports that can not only be used to communicate with the GPS module but also with a computer or other microcontrollers in the ground station without interfering with timing at the same time because that was a problem we had with the Duomilanove Arduino. That's right. And our first results looked very promising you can see here that the lower signal flips every second. Laser point. Yeah, every time the signal changes a second has passed and you can see it's... I can't find it but it happens after one second. It is actually triggering a monoflop which explains what a frequency is 500 mHz and the period is two seconds because the pulse you get from a GPS receiver is very, very small and you wouldn't actually see that this scale. Yeah. So, we know from the GPS module when the second starts and the rest of the information like which minute, which second we can get by reading the NMEA information over the serial connection with the awesome hardware you are. So, but there's more. We have here a picture of two GPS modules running in parallel. They lie next to each other so they are probably connected to the same satellites most likely and the oscilloscope was triggering on the first one and as we can see the timings do differ a bit but it's about 200 nanoseconds and that's less than one microsecond and so it's good. Yeah. Okay, we have... currently we have a 16 MHz clock driving the microcontroller and then we can try to interpolate stuff and that means we have a working time source so far. So, the next step is a bit of design in the design of the station, of the ground station we have to define a timing module because we want everything interchangeable we need an accurate time source to do this we need a higher frequency clock to increase the resolution of the module and to keep track of the time and we have to interface it with I2C or I2C or uninterrupt or something we'll see about that and the next step would be defining a positioning module that tells us the position where our ground station is and also there are many possible things you can use GPS, we can use GLONASS we can use hard-coded coordinates because we have measured where the ground station stands and it's fixed there or we can use the very new Galileo that was launched a few days ago first launched. It was activated some days ago it was activated some days ago so and this leads us to a ground station with these three modules and I give back to Hades so now we've got timing and positions so what do we actually want to measure satellites at this point are a little difficult because we don't have any but there's plenty of airplanes flying around over our heads and each of those is sending a signal called ADS-B which is just a beacon signal every commercial airliner is sending out and it includes besides the call sign, flight number also the GPS position and time of each plane of course there's a couple of cons there as well because it is a signal sent at roughly a gigahertz and that is SHF which in German is Scheißwollfrequenz and Scheißwollfrequenz is really nasty but that makes it also really awesome now well introducing the ham radio community and I'm sure there are a few in here who is a ham radio operator? You guys are awesome but yes a round of applause for all the ham radio operators you do awesome stuff and some of the documentation we found is really really obscure here's some feedback we had to build an antenna and we decided let's build a chapeau or a slim gym in the next iteration that's the documentation we found how to build a chapeau antenna it was make this part here 22 centimeters this one six and a half and make this so centimeter or something and then start nibbling off two parts here and one part there to tune it and that is really obscure I didn't learn anything from that so we had to spend some time reading more documentation and then we found this it's actually here that's three quarters of a wavelength and that's one quarter of a wavelength and then you have to adjust this little bit here to get the impedance down here to 50 ohms to match your cables and that's how you actually learn something from it so we've learned that you shouldn't document what you did but how you did it because only that way we can all learn from each other and that is the main task here so it is work and many hackers document their stuff similar to this and I just kindly want to ask get better at documenting your stuff you could also build a slim gym antenna which is similar to the chapeau in design kinda it got a little more gain and some other details which you can read about in the linked references somewhere we've got an antenna and now we need to receive stuff so we found actually that same ham radio operator that we got the weird documentation from and he used old satellite TV tuners to receive ADS-B and decoded we started doing that and then noticed he's actually exploiting a hardware bug it looked so good when we started it wasn't anyway we bought shit and got it working this is a mini ADS-B module it is kind of open you can buy a kit, solder it it's nice SMT components I like that stuff and it even works in the BCC yes and it even works in the BCC you can come up to our desk and take a look at it and that's what it looks like that's an airplane if you can't help anyway we've got a signal now we need to do some more filtering and amplification because the signal we get from the decoder is a little bit smallest 0.1 to 0.3 volts that is not that much anyway then we do some decoding measurement and then we notice oh shit it's the 28th anyway that's where we are at we actually get a lot out of this project even along the way so what do we get we've got a distributed timing network that we can use to measure anything we want you can measure your weather stations airplanes, radiation, earthquakes it really doesn't matter if you're measuring satellites or whatever and we have a plenty of GPS ground stations if everything works out that actually know their location so we can do a GPS which is assisted GPS which makes it even more accurate for all kinds of other applications because we know the position of the ground station and what the GPS thinks the position is and we've got distributed time sources which well everyone needs time so now we actually have a second ADSB receiver that we need to get working then we have to set up those two receivers a couple of miles apart measure some signals and calculate numbers then if we don't get crazy on the way because it's so much high frequency stuff we'll try harder and build more and there will probably be many, many dragons and so far there's quite some collateral damage we got lots of contacts into the HEM radio community and the satellite community we've built three antennas so far despite our lack of knowledge we've got two ADSB receivers as said before we've got several GPS setups and many, many filters some of which don't actually filter then we've got a GPS module that is made specifically for timing that we're going to take a look at we've got one hacker lost in the lens of FPGA design because we need higher clock rates and we've got one hacker lost to horology which is the art of measuring time he actually found a really nice paper 100 pages yeah, tons of fun anyway, it's too much for us to do and there's this little stuff that we got the first try of getting anything to work lots of receivers and crap it's fun to take that stuff apart anyway, how to contribute you can do the usual stuff write code talk to us, help us share your expertise if you have any I'm sure you have and finally if everything works out set up a ground station we actually do have one guy here that has an application for all of this already Andreas now it's my turn, like presented before you know how to do it with hardware but you want to have it distributed so I will tell you this later so what effect are we doing here right now so we want to build a real space application so we want to have telemetry and tracking and with a real purpose for my university at the University of Stuttgart there's a small satellite project at the IOS that's the Institute of Space Systems and they want to build a small satellite and we want to track and do telemetry with it when it's done in orbit and we want to determine the orbital elements, that's called Kaplan elements that define the orbit and we want to have the amateur radio community included in this all and we want to have it externally tracking and positioning because it has some benefits with it so why do we want to do it, so why not so first of all it's positioning when the satellite is ejected into the orbit, sometimes you don't really know where the launcher is heading you to so you're bored in orbit and sometimes you're not there and you want to know where the launcher put you to so relatively fast after the positioning of orbit injection you want to have the positioning so like you can see here before on the slide when there are so small variants inside you're not aiming with your dish directly to the satellites and so you don't get any connections at all and we want to have it globally and we want to have an independent service then afterwards when the tracking is possible we want to have also some kind of communication with the satellites, in this case it's a so called data dump mode you want to get signals from the like some housekeeping data the temperatures inside and some other really important data that will be sent down then our distributed ground station network over there could fill in some gaps between the main nodes, the satellite owner already rented so you can fill some gaps over there and the very very last end of it you want to have a possibility to command satellites that's a really really high expectation here and there's almost nothing more important than data rates in space so you could help us doing this achieving it to be somehow a little bit cheaper then and the last thing is of course to serve man in general to have the telemetry and tracking of satellites for everybody some derivative beyond this current objectives of course and the science platform and that's a picture of what's done currently so there's big satellite dish on some fields that's a rusting satellite earth station and we want to have something like this that's that's somewhere nearby building a current and everybody should contribute not perhaps this is television satellite dishes but for some other kind of antennas these guys are building right now so how do we start we have 4 dots and these dots are reception stations and we want to have some kind of reverse GPS so you need to have at least 4 GPS satellites and the handheld device and with 4 GPS satellites sending signals to your handheld device your handheld device can calculate where it is so you want to have it backwards your handheld device will send out something and then we will calculate it backwards and this is done via so you see you do ranging it's so called and you have to have at least 4 stations because it's in 3D and this is it's easy somehow but it's solving lots of linear equations with smart triggers so that is nothing new so the so called Apolunius of Pergatis some thousand years ago and his finding is already available on the internet and there are some other papers describing how it will be done so it won't end with 4 dots we need to have you at some point because you want to have more reception stations this you will get all over the world because then we can enhance the accuracy of everything through multi reception points and then it will become a combinatorical problem with some exponential deterministic behavior so the more stations you get the more the computer has to calculate afterwards but it's like shown here your position accuracy will be much much better or at least you hope so and now it's my turn I'm from the constellation platform that's already existing right now we want to turn this basis and do this into a sensor grid and we are a student group we are a DGLR we are an aerospace society group a young academic group and we do applied sciences and use orientated aerospace research right now and it's a really interdisciplinary collaboration like we said before DGLR rechencraft.net some of them are already here and of course check space so it's really really interesting and what you're basically doing is this but that's not our machine that's the HLRS and they are on the 12th place in the top 500 ranking they have about 800 teraflops but they cost 30 millions and we are this small because we are relying on new computers I will tell you afterwards we have two teraflops right now that's not so in this range but we only cost 300 euros so it's rather cheap in this position so how do we do it we do distributed computing with Boing so you guys are donating idle PC time to science in this case to our system and we have about 2,000 users and 5,000 host PCs and if we only can make 10% of them plugging in the antenna these guys are building then we have a huge basis already distributing in about 66 countries all over the world and currently they have nothing to do just spending some idle time for a so called ascent trajectory optimizer for a high end student group at our university and I am doing the first optimization of them for the hybrid rocket system so we could possibly and hopefully turn some of them and plugging in the antennas so we also already get some distributed computing system as a basis of this and we want to have the sensor data processed also on our system and we also want to make data available in raw form so you can already start doing some good things for science currently right now so this is nothing new, this is already been done the CrayCatcher network is already doing this with some accelerometers built in some Macs or with a small USB device you can plug in anywhere and that's my favorite it's called radioactive at home you can measure radioactive background stuff at your home that's nothing new you have this as another application so going back to you and we need some more help with volunteers I'm a radio expert and of course institutes like universities and other important persons and we want to have antenna modes with fixed single antennas that's the basic stuff everybody can participate in fixed triple directional antennas that will be more costly because there are three of them but they give us more possibilities afterwards and of course motorized single directional antennas with high gain antennas like satellite dishes that will be done by the institutes because they're really big and expensive and with this kind of hybrid antenna mode we expect that the accuracy will be much better afterwards and the expected sensor grid we want to have is at least 1000 over 9000 would be very very appreciated okay we're also thinking about doing some more mathematics so there's a so called one way ranging sending something from Earth to the satellite and back but we are not in the sending mode right now but we already thinking about it so it's all called one way Doppler system from the French guys using this for Doris multi way ranging that is what we expect to do with the sensor system and we have some contact with Dr. Sakamoto from Tokyo University in Japan who does some crazy stuff and good things with Doppler shift experiments I'm not really knowing anything about because I don't understand it but it's working because he's doing it right now and when you have some ideas how we could do it give me an email please so why do we do it for science of course and for other reasons like I presented in the last video okay now to give you some impression where we are placed because you can say perhaps there is a system currently doing this yes of course you can do it with inertial measurement systems and I think some of you already do with UAVs and so on and of course the space based satellite navigation system like GPS or GLONASS the GPS is the Department of Defense and GLONASS is now controlled by the Roscosmos the Space Agency of Russia and they have something in common when your satellite gets lost because everything is stored on the satellite you don't get any data back so it's nothing worse when you know where you are when you're not sending it to the satellite owner afterwards so you want to have it externally and the government agencies already doing this and the United States strategic command they're tracking everything with radars that's greater than two centimeters like a coin the USPN Space Tracking S-Track and the so-called towers of the Kness like I mentioned before so they have different objective different functions and they are under different management and the distributed ground station network could become a new player in between them with decentralized responsibilities so we do afterwards we really achieving our goals there are some crazy papers on the internet I really love atmospheric measurements or just measuring the accuracy of the GPS itself because it's also important because you want to know when something is going blurry on your radar then environmental monitoring by wireless communication networks they proved that you can already do measurements with the MTS and GPS so it's basically the same, we have to just to figure out how the frequency is playing in this perhaps thunderstorm, strikes and cell detection or that's my favorite nuclear detonation detection I'm not sure how it works but I found the paper explaining this and I would really love to detect one so not because the detection but I want to prove somebody is playing a role in their foregarden okay we talked about the antenna system we also need a beacon that's a concept nothing more we want to transmit something we need a protocol for it we have to establish a data rate what we need for the complete cycle and of course for the use data that's important and the Hemradio community know OSCAR that's the orbital satellite carrying amateur radio I would also like to have an own ID for this and in this case there are some other interdisciplinary partners the aerospace lab in Stuttgart-Hegenberg they are high school students and we want to have them built and helping us with the beacon itself and the beacon itself should be as simple as possible to have more possibilities with it because I will come to this later and now you could ask us okay do you really think you can do this yes of course we have to keep the small satellites lying on the floor there it's built in the United Kingdom and they have something called the FunCube dongle it's so small and they already can receive signals from space so there's some data rates in it so it's very very possible to do this and now for the future perspective besides the time measuring the first thing I would love to have is checking satellites of course checking aircrafts that's currently being done then helping science experiment a weather balloon that's a rexels and dexels campaign that's a rocket and balloon experiment for university students you can apply for it for a small slot and put your experiment on board both and perhaps that's a really nice test bed for us later on for our beacon and also tracking them UAVs, these guys the UAV-NG are currently doing some great job, some stairs up and of course for the Stuttgart atlas it's also a plane, a small plane and we would also would like to help them as well of course OpenStreetMap because when you have a beacon that's really really small fitting into your pocket you can do your walk around and then checking where you have been and then helping OpenStreetMap doing the mapping stuff like I mentioned before the differential GPS improving your GPS system and of course animal tracking future perspective and chances beyond the system our platform constellation could be the first application for the distributed ground station network but it's not exclusively done for us because spin-offs and deriwits should be done for everybody for some small devices and in this case the so-called fast deploy antenna work antenna you can just implement here and then checking the UAVs upstairs we want to have it with you, buy you and for everyone of course what I've learned so far is interdisciplinary collaboration works very well with hackers, science and volunteers and I'm really grateful for this almost everything is already available we just have to bring it together in a sensible way we have to keep on working because it's hard but it's really doable so your communities are really great because you have a lot of support for the constellation platform from the check space and possibly for you and of course space works so I'm done, so now it's time for some wild questioning and thank you for your time thank you so much we do have time for a few questions please put your hand up if you have any we have a question from the ISE right away I'll get down to you OK, Darten Wolf is asking why you rely on governmentally controlled clock sources he thinks that high precision clocks are affordable and rubidium frequency clocks normally go for about $150 yes, why are we relying on this? it's simple we had it lying around and it works really really well because GPS is meant to be a time distribution network we also could use a module using a similar interface that is based on GLONASS or Galileo or the Chinese variant and it is very unlikely at least in the beginning that all these governments would turn off something at the same time so we just used that to get started hope that answers the question the back? I have to thank you guys because with your work on timing you might have done about half of my diploma thesis which I started right now you're welcome seriously we are working on a network of close by but distributed nodes of detector for cosmic ray incident light so we are looking for Cherenkov light coming in from proton collisions in the upper atmosphere and the easiest way to get good precision is to get a bunch of detector stations which you place at a couple meters or a couple hundred meters from each other in a huge area the system that we are hoping to deploy in some part of southern Siberia and actually for the timing that we've been thinking about nothing much has worked out yet which is why it's perfect that I got to see this talk we were thinking about a two-stage timing system where you would have one PPS or maybe 100 PPS level accuracy from GPS or satellite systems and then a second level system that gets us down to hopefully from nanosecond which is what we need for evaluating our signals and I think the system that you described with the Arduino board which is perfect because we've been struggling with closed hardware could serve as a first level module or even the timing module of some maybe not so time critical science applications so I'd really love to get in touch with you because you could do stuff that helps astrophysics a lot because these distributed cheap detector stations which you distribute over large area is probably where astroparticle physics is going to go by large parts so yeah great here we are that is good to hear that people actually are needing this and it's not just us having brain farts so feel free by all means to come upstairs to the desk you can not miss it if you look for the big posters and we'll have a talk any more questions? yes we do have more questions from the IRC that's 28C3 SAR2 in this case of renode so fidepus asks what he has to do to become a dot in the grid he wants to build hardware that is a good question he can probably talk to us probably would be a good start he can sign up for this mailing list here it's public just sign up there ask us questions or come up to us here at the congress and we'll talk about the details everyone is very welcome to join there's too much work for just us to do we have another question from the audience up front yes this is a reverse constellation and positioning you were talking about at least for positioning that means it's at least bi-directional communication between all the ground station and this one flying notebook what's the frequency band and the field strength intended to have the reverse GPS is just an example to present you how it's done but every antenna these guys are building have to have a small device that's really measuring your position or you have to put it in because you know the time when the signal is going to the antenna from all beacon and the position of each and every antenna and then you can calculate it we just have to receive it from somewhere so manually putting in something really very difficult for some persons and we put in a GPS system and so on it's also measuring the position itself we don't have to be bi-directional because then it's sending and we don't have the license for this yet just receiving and listening to whatever is going to the antenna yes at this point we don't have any intentions of violating any laws by sending stuff that is maybe come in the future okay another question from the audience at the back you mentioned that you looked at NTP for time synchronization and rejected it as too imprecise did you look at alternative protocols in that area I remember vaguely seeing papers and other approaches of the same kind though one thing that was very important to us was that the ground station should be independent at least independent for a while from an internet connection like you could just take it somewhere with you where you don't have any internet connection or the internet connection is unreliable and it saves data and timing information and any stuff and then it sends it when it gets to the internet again it sends it back on the point network and the information is then processed so since we need to keep the clocks constantly in sync it would be that to be dependent from the internet or any other network and to add to this described to Axis and Bexis campaign they are starting from the northern part of Sweden and there is no internet and I would like to have this small deployable antennas there and we are doing this and hopefully doing this and we would have a modular so then you have GPS module you can stick in or some other sources and it just depends on your application you want to do with it it's a little bit of a chicken act problem because we want to get rid of the internet and it depends on the internet for our most basic thing the timing that is kind of a problem that's the answer to your question okay it does we do have another question from the IRC Beboar wants to know if you ever heard of MZ it's I think an organisation who is working in high infrastructure and if you have ever thought of working with them yes of course we have heard of them the final cube is also somehow related to it and first of all we want to have it working so we were already talking to some people and we would love to talk to them as well but we want to have at least some achievement so give us some time please yeah we just started hacking and then started talking to people working at the same time but yeah as time goes by we get more and more contacts if you want to put us towards any group that is already doing this please do feel free to send us an email yes and write another question okay I have two small questions double Z double O wants to know how if you know about the time on the satellite and how this is done and Fidipus added to his previous question if you are developing a model layout for ground station or if you are planning to do so we don't know yet about the time stabilisation on set but well we don't have satellites yet so that wasn't a question that we ask ourselves and we are doing it but when this person is knowing this you can help us yes if anybody knows this well to share the second question was are we if you are planning on doing a model layout for the ground station or yes this is the basic idea that we want to build some very very simple interfaced modules for timing or plugging in any possible kind of measurement system that you want to use be it satellite or your weather station and go from there okay I see we do not have any more questions if you do not want to ask a question in public just come after the talk thanks again thank you