 So if someone visualizes a product in their space, they're five times more likely to make that purchase than if they did not look at a visualized product. Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing Podcast, helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales, and outperform your competition. All right, everyone, welcome to another episode of Smarter Building Materials Marketing where we believe your online presence should be your best salesperson. We are really excited because we have a technology company in the house, which as building materials marketers, we don't often get to say. So I'm really excited to welcome Josh Ruff. He is the VP of Revenue for Roomvo, which is a very cool visualization tool, but Josh, don't let me give too much away. First of all, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here. We're excited too. Can I get you to give everyone just a 30,000-foot view of who you are and what Roomvo is and what Roomvo does before we dive in? Absolutely. So I've spent my last 10 years of my career working in technology and startups from the food delivery space, think of Uber Eats and those types of companies. And so I've primarily been brought into companies to help scale and set them up for long-term success. And at Roomvo, high-level, we're a visualizer company, as you mentioned. And so what we essentially do is allow a consumer to take a photo of their space, whether it be living room, kitchen, whatever it might be, and visualize a manufacturer's product in that space. And so we do soft surface, hard surface of things, flooring, countertops, walls, backsplash, all of the above. And really we think of ourselves as a sales tool and enable a consumer to take some type of purchase based on seeing a product in their home. So you were in the technology space and you were like, you know what I need to do if I really want to have a future in technology, you need to get into building materials. That's exactly it. You nailed it. But I mean, to summarize it quite quickly, I mentioned I was in the food delivery space and I happened to meet the CEO and I would say three or four years ago and as a result of the pandemic, I actually was in corporate food delivery, funny enough. And so I worked for a company that did food delivery for Shopify and Twitter and all of the major technology companies. And the pandemic came and food ordering at businesses kind of disappeared. And I had met the founder Pavel here in my previous role and he asked if I was interested in another technology company outside of food. And I said, hey, you know what, I just love technology. I love building products and companies. I love working with great people. And so that brought me to the building material space and here I am. We do have good people that I am sure of and we are ripe for technology adoption. So Josh, we talk to manufacturers all the time about visualizers or how to help, especially end consumers, conceptualize their products. Cause we know specifically end consumers, homeowners, they have a really hard time understanding what a one by one inch swatch, especially on like a computer screen looks like when it's at scale on their wall on their floor, et cetera. So can you share any actual information to help back up the thing that I tell people all the time? Like do you have data to talk about what's the conversion rate of sales likelihood from a visualizer versus just like regular old website? Great question. So what we typically see is what a five time conversion. So if someone visualizes a product in their space, they're five times more likely to make that purchase than if they did not look at a visualizer or a visualized product. Couple other interesting data points. I think a lot of people are probably familiar with visualizing and there are two different scenarios. There's one where you see a preset room scene where there is this great inspirational room, you can change products. In those environments, we typically see someone look at four to six products on average in one of those preset room scenes. What we do is we do the preset room scenes, but we also, as I mentioned, allow someone to take a photo of their own room. So we see about 80% of users will actually upload a photo of their own room versus looking at those preset room scenes. And we will see a user actually look at 16 to 20 products in a photo in their own space versus a preset room scene. So we are really, really, really driving engagement when consumers do interact with a photo in their own space. And the end result is, like you said, what is this product actually gonna look like in my space? And our whole methodology is how quickly can we allow a customer? Let's make it as simple as possible. As user-friendly as possible to say, hey, you know what? I know what this is gonna look like. I'm gonna buy this product. I'm gonna order a sample or whatever it might be. So if I'm a salesperson listening, and we know that we have lots of salespeople who listen, you've kind of like taken a lot of my magic and put it into technology at this point, right? Because we have a very consultative space, just building materials in general. I wanna have that conversation. I'm hearing all of the things that I know they're gonna say. They need our opinions. They need to know about maybe it's the environment, maybe it's high humidity, or it's like high thought to freeze cycles, anything like that. How would you answer those types of questions when it comes to pushing this information digitally? So great question. So I think there's, and this might be a long-winded answer here, but I think there's two ways. It was a long-winded question, so that's great. There's two ways we think about visualization and how a consumer can use it. We use the car dealership methodology as a great example. If I'm going to buy a car, I probably go to the Toyota.com website or the manufacturer's website to look at product information. That's where I'm gonna find most up-to-date products. I'm not actually buying my car there. I'm actually probably going to Josh's local Toyota dealership to buy my car. And so what we've done is we've got a visualizer that sits on a manufacturer's website, and that's great. I can go to, I'm gonna share it with a customer here, at Altile.com, and I can go look at their products and visualize them on their website. But I can't transact there. I have to go into a local retailer where I'm gonna purchase that product. And so what we've actually done is extended our visualization service to the retail location. And so as a retailer, I can also add a visualizer to my website and I can select that product I carry, which leads me to the next piece, which post-pandemic, we've actually really focused on the in-store experience because like you said, visualizer on the website's great, but I'm actually interacting with a person when I go into a showroom in most instances. So what we've done is found a way to get the visualizer in the store and we're investing in things like QR codes where I can scan this QR code of a product and see what it looks like in my space in the showroom. And now what we're also able to do is work with the RSAs and train them to how they can use Ringo as a sales tool. So tell a customer, bring a photo of your space when you come into the showroom. And now as an RSA, I can actually interact with that customer and show them different products and what it's gonna look like in their home. And so what we're seeing is huge adoption from the individual salesperson because we're making it easier for a customer to make a purchase. They don't have to go home with that sample now to see what the product looks like in our space. So we are really seeing sales cycles expedited, quite exponentially. And we're seeing people able to actually sell for much bigger ticket prices because they're able to show and visualize higher-range products and things like that. And so we're actually working really closely with the RSA and providing them a tool that's actually making them a lot more successful in their jobs. Who do you think in our space is the most difficult when it comes to technology adoption? Where do you have to have the hardest conversations? It honestly really, really depends. I think there has historically been a bit of a challenge where manufacturers want customers to go to their website. And so visualizers have lived on a manufacturer site and the challenge there is a retailer doesn't want to send a customer to a manufacturer's website because there's a dealer locator there, they can find local competition. So you've kind of had different conversations at different levels where when you're talking to a manufacturer the conversations can be difficult because you know that the retailer wants the customer on their site and the manufacturer spends a lot of money on marketing on their site and they want the customer to go to their site. So I don't wanna say anyone's more difficult but they're just different conversations where when you're the manufacturer you're trying to sell them on, hey, the retailer wants to visualize products in there on their own website. And if you're talking to a retailer it's you're talking about, hey, how can I get adoption in showroom? And I think that's where it becomes challenging because you've got a bunch of people you need to train. So I would say it's there's not more difficult conversations anywhere. I would say they're just very different. And I would say the appetite for adopting technology is a little bit different depending on where you are. And that comes from resources from not only financial but just people, right? Like it's if I'm an individual retailer I don't necessarily have someone an IT person that can run my systems for me and implement things like that. So I think it's just different depending on the audience and who you're talking to even now to the installer. We see installers that are using it for installation matter. Do I want this to run for horizontal or how do I want the pattern layout? And again, they're just different conversations at every stage. And I think in general it's more education as well. It's I would say they're difficult conversations a lot more leading with education about what's out there and educating of what the possibilities are versus hey, we just don't want to do this. It is much very much an educational exercise. So you mentioned this all, which all makes sense. Manufacturers want to have any type of visualization about their products on their site. Retailers, whether it's like showrooms or big box or distribution. If they have the capabilities and it's a product that they stock they want the visualization on their site. What do you think customers want? What's easiest for the customer? Whether it's like installers, end users, architects what do they want? So the end consumer wants what's the easiest to use where they can visualize the most amount of products. They want simplicity and they want to make an easy decision. And so if I work this up through the chain here from retailer to manufacturer there's implications in a few places here. If you're a manufacturer you don't want the retailer probably to visualize other manufacturers products. You probably only want them to visualize your own product. But when I get to the retail level what happens is I sell lots of manufacturers products. Adoption becomes very low because if you're a retailer hey, and I have a customer that comes in I don't want to tell them I can only visualize this in your vendors, manufacturers products. I can't visualize this. So it all ties down to what is going to be the best customer experience like you said, and it's ease of use, it's simplicity and it's finding everything in one location. And so when we first built Roomvo on a retailer's website they could only select one manufacturer's products. And what happened is adoption was very low because if you're an RSA in the store and a customer says, I want to visualize this product it's like, hey, I can't do that it becomes a really bad customer experience. And then what happens at the retail associate level is they're not going to want to use the tool anymore because it's giving them a bad experience with their customers. So we evolved to now Roomvo on a retailer's website they can actually select multiple manufacturers products. And so now the consumer can visualize a product catalog from a bunch of different manufacturers. And then that leads into the next piece of I probably want to visualize more than flooring if I'm doing my house I probably want to visualize the walls and I probably want to visualize my backsplash so then the exact same process happens where the consumer probably doesn't want to go to a visualizer for floors and another one for walls and another one for backsplash. And so it's really building tool making our tool easy for the consumer where they can visualize more products. And then what happens is everyone wants to go to where the consumer is, right? So if there's more consumers using the tool every manufacturer want to play into that space and so you end up creating this flywheel where it's kind of a win-win for everybody the easier you can make it to use for consumers the more products you can put in there the more you're gonna have consumer use and the more value there is for everyone to have some type of product or some type of interaction with the tool. It's not a secret consumers today and I use the term consumer as a general term for anybody that buys anything so that includes commercial installers, right? That's literally everyone in our channel. Consumers today we are visual creatures the internet and Netflix they've ruined us have a ruined for life it is what it is a lot of feedback that we hear is very few when you think about it very few materials in the built environment are actually highly visually impactful, right? So you mentioned surfaces and those are all like finished materials or like the finished surfaces which totally makes sense. Do you have any thoughts or recommendations for manufacturers who have products that are not visible when a project is complete about how they could leverage visualization? I think as humans we're just inherently visual and I think people always want to see something and so I think of blueprints or CAD drawings like there is some visual component at every step along the building process, right? And so I think anything that you can visualize that will assist in the decision making process because one way or another there is always going to be a visual component that makes that decision. I'm like, how are my cables laid into my place? That gets visualized at some component, right? Like somewhere someone draws a building plan that puts those in there. Maybe it's not the visualization quality and how good that product looks more. It's like, hey, I want to actually see how this looks amongst other things for maybe it's spacing and maybe it's, you know measurement and all those types of things I think there is a place for it but the driving factor is not the visual of what does this look like. It's more of maybe from an organizational standpoint or how much material I need or something like that. Visuals do play a part in that decision at some point along the way. Yeah, I think you actually hit on it exactly where, cause you went to the exact right place where if it's a finished environment that's you're really comparing visuals for aesthetics, right? Do I want light color flooring, dark color flooring high striation in my marble countertops or solid coloring or something like that. But if you're talking about non-visuals what are the things that I want to compare? Is it organization? Like I'm probably not going to swap it and out insulation materials, right? I don't really care what the visual is but what's the impact? Does it impact the depth of the wall? Does it impact the type of material that can go on the outside? On the inside, does it impact plumbing? Does it impact all of those other things and how does it lay out organizationally? It's also like this secret to marketing in a sense where if you do a thing even if it's exactly like everybody else's but you just make it easier for me to understand and that and me including the pro who's done it a bajillion times if it's easier to understand I just feel more confident about it. So I think that's like a dead on answer, Josh. Way to go. That was a test about whether or not you're gonna pass. You passed. Thank you. I did, I did. I'm not just a technology person. Yeah, you're not just a technology person. The other thing I think too is when I think about visualization I shouldn't say I should say we when we think about it there is a lot more to it than just a photo, right? Like what data can I take from that photo is kind of the next step where it's like can I take measurements from that photo? And when I think about today we do use sizing if I have different plank width for example, like we adjust the scale and so you can think of a photo as a data point like what data can I take from this to help me with making a decision? So that's another whole component there that is sometimes overlooked that there is a lot of data that you can take from a photo and maybe it's not, you know if you're thinking about building plans you're not taking a photo of existing but there is a lot of data that can come from the visual component as well. I totally agree. And I think that's a really important piece of we're not just pushing people to get online because like that's cool but like you can get data of where do people see your project come in? Are you the first? Are you the last? Are you just like this nice little upgrade or are you part of a huge renovation project? And that's where, I mean that impacts product roadmap that impacts product innovation. It's a huge, huge data point as a self-proclaimed data nerd anything that sticks out in your mind that you would wanna share your like that you've seen your customers be able to grab and implement from a data standpoint. We have obviously access to a ton of data and I would say what's this is very new for a lot of companies I would say visualization is one but actually becoming very data-driven. And so we think of the pandemic and accelerating businesses online. I would say the conversations I was having two and a half years ago when I first started in the industry compared to now are very different. And so things like conversion tracking things like my customer acquisition costs like just general conversations around data and marketing automation and visualization we're not as prevalent as they are today. So I would say overall the bigger shift is more customers are talking about being data-driven and they want to actually understand more about their customer. How that ties into us is quite unique because we obviously know what products are being looked at where and what are your most popular colors in this region and what are people buying here? We have a ton of consumer insight and so we're seeing of course a lot of manufacturers wanna know hey, across my entire network what is our most popular skews that are being visualized? So we have an abundance of consumer data now that also we sometimes overlook it really can help predicting trends and what's popular and what's not and really driving businesses just kind of comes back to data, right? It's like how can we get more data and it's not just the visual component but hey, what about the overarching data of all of kind of our products which is a whole other conversation in itself because you do see very different trends if you're talking the Southern United States and we have a pretty big presence in Europe. The products people are looking at are very, very different and you can see it even on a regional level so it's pretty interesting to see. So if you could peel back the curtain, Josh, what predictions do you have for the, I would say demand for really that like in store but online combined shopping experience in our industry over the next three to five years? Having tighter integrations between visualizing a product and purchasing it, right? So I think we've talked about the acceleration of digital but what is the next step for that? You don't see a whole lot of e-commerce in general. Hey, when I found a product I like and I think a lot of it is driven by people still want to see a physical sample and we are still as millennials become and we start to see a transition in the workforce and who home buyers are. You'll start to see more people buying online and looking for tools that can help them make that online purchase and so when I think about that I think of, and we debate this a lot like will the physical sample ever go away? And so that is very at the forefront of our conversations and I do think there is a world where someone visualizes a product in their space they are able to measure that space at the same time and then actually transact and purchase and I think that's kind of where we would love to see things go and we're hearing about it at the retail level, I'm not gonna wave my magic wand and say that's the reality here, I think there's a long way to go but if you look at other industries and how they have progressed, I think it is a slow progression where it's purchasing a store or purchase online, pick up in store is kind of the next transition to eventually being almost a full e-commerce solution and I do, there's people that are probably gonna be screaming at me like physical samples will never go away but- We're about to get emails, I can just be honest. But we are seeing a lot of people ask us about tools that can help in the decision-making process it is such a costly endeavor samples, a lot of them just get sent they disappear and so is there a way we can actually have an impact and I think that is a win-win if we can find a solution where physical sampling can disappear and people can still purchase and it doesn't have an impact on the orders that are coming and I think that's a win-win for everybody I think everyone would love to get away from the world of physical samples. How would you solve for basically just screen resolution or whatever the right terminology is like colors on screens are not the same as colors in real life that's the most common denominator of pushback on samples there's a bajillion other reasons why physical samples are important but how would you solve for that? 100% so one is we have built a tool where we call it virtual samples where you can actually view a product in a 3D space but what we've done to that is we are actually able to put different lighting patterns on it so we can say what does this product look like in the dark? What does this product look like under a warm light under a light under a cool light and so we do that based on true Calvin's and again you still we still live in a world where everyone's screen is different screen resolution is very different and that's gonna be a tough problem to solve but I will say that we have actually had real world impact for our customers on reducing returns because of that reason exactly where it's like hey I bought this product I have a better and I think the conversation here is not will we get away from it but are we slowly improving so that doesn't need to happen and we are seeing that today we are seeing customers buying with more confidence and returning less products because we're getting we're moving in the right direction to be able to produce a digital representation of what a product looks like and I think we are progressing towards that do I think it's gonna happen in the next couple of years I don't know but there are so much technology advancements around us in terms of screens in terms of everything and so you don't just have to think about the technology that we can build but what other technologies in tandem and industries not like ours in terms of screen technology in terms of other things that will also be advancing at the same rate and you hope at some point that you're able to see a world where hey I know exactly what this is gonna look like in our space and that is the question everyone asks is hey I wanna touch and feel this thing and there does come a point where every industry comes to that stage where there's probably countless products you can think of that you're like groceries are a great example pre-pandemic no one ordered groceries online I know I worked in the space it's one of those things where once you've purchased something and it's an experience that you didn't think you would enjoy or you were like hey I don't think I would be able to do that it only takes once and a lot of people probably order groceries and that's a thing once someone orders groceries one time it's like oh hey that was so easy and so I think it's getting to that point where there's some early adopters that can see success and that's really gonna drive kind of what happens next and for us it's if customers and manufacturers and everyone wants to move to a world where sampling is kind of obsolete we can do things digitally like 100% we kind of move where the market goes and so I'm not sitting here with a crystal ball saying hey we're gonna build this and hope people do it we very much develop based on where we think the consumer is going to go and where we get feedback from manufacturer and there's a problem we wanna be able to solve let's have some open dialogue let's see if we can help you with technology solve this problem and for sure sampling is one of those things that I think everyone would love to see go away it's a huge cost it's a huge undertaking operationally shipping costs like it is a huge cost and definitely I mean it would be great if but yeah Or to solve samples being intentional and purposeful versus just like mass production like five of this product and these variation of colors for manufacturer A and the same and B and the same and C for just like minute comparisons versus what if you knew your samples had a 33% conversion rate right you a one in three chance of converting if someone gets a sample this is obviously not real time but you're in a place where you are much farther down the line by the time you choose a sample that makes that starts to be make a lot more sense versus just this mass volume that can happen that's exactly yeah and so what we see happening now with a few manufacturers that we work with today is they are QR coding a sample that they send to a customer and so if you receive that sample you can scan that QR code it will automatically prompt you to take a photo of your space I can take a picture and it will automatically take that product and place it on the respective surface so say I ordered a flooring sample scan the QR code I can take a picture of my living room floor and then within seconds it is gonna put that product on my floor and so that is kind of the intermediary step where hey how can I improve samples maybe we don't get away from sampling but how can I improve how can I improve it yep A get some real time tracking in this are people actually scanning the QR code what are people doing when we get this sample and how can we kind of improve the different conversion steps along the way so that's also things we're thinking about too right so it's how do we make these samples interactive and a little bit more than just hey I'm gonna dump a plain sample like let's take it a step further to really help you make the decision of that sample I actually love that because we talk a lot about samples and we were working with the roofing manufacturer last year and they were working on a new set of samples but they have a very just unique coloring system for their roofing tiles and the problem is when you see it really close up it kind of looks like a mess it's like a it's like a who's the pointillism artist that Matisse Picasso whom I talk about I don't know what Picasso I imagine like a pointillism but Picasso is always a mess pointillism like you like stand 100 feet away from it you're like oh that's beautiful and you get up close and you're like wait a minute what's happening like that's how their roofing samples are right so you look at it really up close and you're like this looks terrible but when it's up on a roof you know 50 feet in the air and you're standing on the corner of it to get a whole home image it's gorgeous so it solves for those types of things also when you're not seeing it like really seeing what it would look like because if you're not an architect and you don't know that that's what that would be like anyway another conversation for another time but very cool very cool application all right Josh you're in the technology space you're in visualization space if you could give manufacturers one piece of advice on how to make their marketing more impactful in the new year what would you tell them? Oh geez I would say you're gonna have to edit this one because I gotta think. Other than beyond rumbo. I would say in general I think it's been a pretty static industry in terms of how products are marketed and so I think in general I think there's a lot of different unique compelling ways that you can capture your audience outside of the traditional methods right so I think you need to think outside of the box I think a lot of people do the same thing because it's always worked but I think people are a little bit apprehensive to try something different and so you know outside of rumbo I do think there's a ton of opportunity there it's not always you know the same old samples with like the sample images or inspiration images on the back like there are some pretty unique ways that you can engage customers I think understanding the audience right understanding who is your buyer now what are they interested in knowing are they interested in products back so they more interested in look and feel I think understanding the consumer and then working backwards because I think the industry has changed so much and the way people are actually purchasing products is drastically different than it was even two to three years ago so I think it's understanding hey where do I meet my customer who is my new consumer and what's important to them and then I think being a little bit creative and you might wanna edit this out but it's a dry it's an old school industry right I think creativity and having a cool little spin on things can sometimes go a long way outside of the standard samples and those types of things so but it's true right it's like very old school it's like everyone does the same thing all the company no one's really trying to differentiate themselves from a marketing standpoint I think there's a huge opportunity to do that and having come from a pretty unique industry we did some really crafty kind of scrappy marketing stuff that worked really well and I think it's people are worried a little bit about it's an old industry and there's a lot of things that are just done the way they are and some people are a little bit apprehensive to kind of ruffle some feathers but I do think it does go a long way and I think people recognize it right you gotta separate yourselves and find a way to differentiate yourselves and sometimes creativity is the easiest way to do it. I love that creativity is the best way to differentiate yourself you actually started this conversation with something that we are starting to really try to be a regular drum beat of what we say which is we're about five to 10 years out from millennials being the predominant generation in the building materials industry really in every industry but that means that our generation is doesn't just expect a digital experience from the brands that we purchase specify install we demand it and we'll flip for a brand from one that has only traditional to one that services us completely from a digital experience I mean those are long-standing millennial generation facts and that is going to be a very fun moment in our industry because it's gonna go from we just do what we've always done because we've always done it and everybody always does it to like oh man we've gotta do something different cause everybody is going to this other brand that does things differently already. Well Josh thank you so much for your time if any of our listeners wanna reach out to you ask questions connect what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Best is email so Jay Ruff are you Ephison Frank Ephison Frank at rumbo.com that's the best way to reach me but feel free to shoot me on LinkedIn or anything like that as well. Awesome well thank you so much and if you like this content and wanna hear more of it head to vinpo.com slash podcast to subscribe until next time we'll see you all later thanks everybody.