 Good evening, everyone. As I said, you said, I'm Diana. I am the head of committees for the African Student Association Tilburg. And I would like to officially welcome you all to our symposium entitled The Origin of African Legal Thinking. I would like to give a warm and special welcome to the Ambassador Judith Sijeni. She is the Deputy Head of Mission of the Kenya Embassy here in the Netherlands. Thank you all once again for coming and giving up your Tuesday evenings, especially for those who have traveled from far away and those who are streaming in from far away. One of our speakers is actually in Kenya right now. So, yeah. And yeah, so this is our symposium. And the reason we decided to have the talk be about this is, growing up, most of the history that we had heard about African countries, myself primarily, was about the colonial encounter, what happened to African countries before colonization, during colonization, and then after their independence. While this history is definitely important, it gave the impression that law came to Africa through colonialism. And this is an impression that I carried with me until I started doing my law degree here at Tilburg University and I actually started to understand what law is, the definition of law. And that's the first moment I displaced this misconception. And I hope you are all curious to find out about the true origins and how our societies are ordered. Definitely taken the curiosity with me. And I hope you're all curious. Please do engage with us throughout the evening as we hear the various sources, the various speakers tell us about their specific aspect about African legal thinking that they will be talking about. So our four different perspectives on the origin of African legal thinking will be taken by Cecil Abungu, who will be covering law and philosophy. We will have Deepak Mawar talking to us about international law and Aurelia Rita. I'm so, so sorry, Marcellus, who will be talking to us from a human rights law perspective. And finally, we will have her kind of a song talking to us about data law in practice. She's a data protection officer. And yeah, this their symposium will be recorded. And like I said, to said, there will be various QR codes shown after each speaker so that you can take note of your question. The QR code will take you to a Mentimeter so that you can fill them in, or just keep your question in mind. And then after the speakers are done speaking, put up your hand and we'll have a Q&A session. So it will be like a panelist discussion towards the end. That being said, I would like to turn to hand over to Aisa to introduce our first speaker Cecil. Yes, perfect. So like Diana said, this is the first QR code for the questions you might have. You can also go to menti.com and fill in the code down below if you're not able to scan the QR code. And it's basically just to fill in your question throughout the evening and we will come back to them afterwards. Don't worry about it. We will show this QR code throughout the evening. Okay, so our first speaker is Cecil. He's a Kenyan based researcher with the University of Cambridge. He will tell us more about law and philosophy with African legal thinking. The question he will answer or talk about how are Western morals different from African morals. He will tell more about philosophy and how it merged with African law basically. Okay, so good evening. My name is Cecil. So, okay, so I was trying to figure out how exactly to structure this talk. I concluded that the best thing I could do was sort of give a general theory of what sort of philosophical thinking goes behind how Africans are interacting with law or what sort of thoughts, what sort of thought philosophical thinking goes behind how Africans interact with law. Before that, just some caveats. The first one is that obviously, so it's like philosophical meaning like there's a lot of general generalization that might, you know, like, I guess if you dig deep enough, you'll find exceptions to it. And that I suppose the evidence is imperfect. I'm using a very constrained case study. So I'm trying to constrain things. And so, okay, so the ideas I'll talk about are based on the kinds of arguments made in courts. So what's kind of so what does what do the formal laws say? What sort of arguments are made in courts? And what sort of interpretations do judges give? And then also on top of that, how does the I guess the general public and I suppose on this question is like, mostly based on how I see people responding to certain arguments in when speaking in person, or on social media, Africans specifically, how do they respond to certain arguments? What's crazy? What's a crazy argument? And what's not a crazy argument? What's obvious? And what's not obvious, etc. Okay. All right. So in general, my thesis is that behind how Africans understand law is a bipolar understanding of a bipolar understanding of what it means to be a person. So this is not an original idea. Okay, some of it is not an original idea. So there is the understanding of personhood that arrives via colonialism. Okay. And is sort of engendered or permanently hammered through colonial the colonial legal project, the rules that are set up, the bureaucracy and what the bureaucracy is forcing people to do. And that's an understanding of ice to some degree, eventually, that personhood is based on the fact that you're you're a human being. And that's all. But there's plenty of African legal philosophers who've, who've discussed personhood, what like, but Africans, historically understood personhood, many African communities to be more exact, because Africans are not one hegemonic unit. But like many African communities understood personhood to be you're a person, only when you fulfill your duties towards others. So your personhood is fundamentally based on the duties you fulfill towards the communities that you live in. So essentially, then you see the, how this becomes a question of individualism, versus more communal, communalistic thinking. So how do you, how you fulfilled your fulfilled only when you fulfill your duties towards others, or you're fulfilled when you're able to flourish individually. Okay, so now, how do we see this in real life. So if you have a look at like, like the rights disputes, the disputes about rights, particularly. There's, there's certain, on certain issues. Okay, in general, where courts are free, where courts are, where courts seem generally to be free. So that's a caveat, courts are free. A, that is the state is not advancing its, well, like, is not essentially like has a, has a grab on the, on the courts, where courts are free, and generally judges are free to make decisions. The way they think the cons, their constitutions and justice requires. Then you see that this more individualistic understanding of what it means to be free, or what it means to be a person, succeeds in general. So the kinds of arguments made and the kinds of arguments taken. And anyway, the written law itself, the formal law, also reflects that for the most part, like if you look at many of the constitutions, they have liberal democratic bills of rights. They're, they're written in ways that emphasize the individualistic understanding of what it means to be a person and what it means to be free. But then there are, when you actually, well, I guess this is one of those places where I can't like provide the written evidence, you know, but like, when you examine what sort of arguments are accepted as plausible or what sort of arguments are thought of as crazy. And let me give you an example. So on the question of like schools deciding, for example, that students shouldn't wear hijabs or schools deciding that they won't give special prayer rooms to students in my country in Kenya, very, very often, the response I get when I test the argument on someone is that they would say, yeah, they can move to another place. They don't have to stay in this place, they can move to another place where they'll be allowed to do that. And this is not the case just for like public talk, it's actually the case for like lost people in law itself. So people who in calculus words do legal work or people who are studying law. So the only way I could make sense of this, the only way I could make sense of this bipolarism in how people see the situation is all to me, it's an understanding that's like, they're on one end, they're dragged by an understanding of a person as an individual and that their personal flourishing, the individual flourishing is what matters most. And on the other hand, or the other end, they're dragged by an understanding of a person as only being a person based on how they're interacting with their communities or with the people in their communities. And that's the freedom matters only in so far as it allows the community, people in the community to also flourish. And if it doesn't allow people in the community to also flourish, then it doesn't matter. Yeah, because when you look at arguments about like, for example, wearing of the hijab in a school setting or how many accommodations basically, what sort of accommodations people deserve, then they look very different, I suppose I'm saying in the West versus how they're received, sorry, how they're received looks very different in the West, very different in the West versus how it's received, at least from the interactions I've had online and in person. So I guess that's basically my claim that it's a sort of bipolar understanding of what it means to be a person, a bipolar understanding of what it means to be free, that is coming from a way of life that they're used to. So one way of life that they're used to, basically, as has been famously said, many African communities, sorry, were extremely communalistic. And many remain so today, particularly outside the urban areas. And yet there's a Western education and the Western education sort of transforms that understanding. And it's like a triple heritage, as Mazrui would say, that they have to grapple with. Western ethics, religion that some of which comes from the West, but some of which is indigenous and their own culture itself. And yeah, I guess that's what I have to say about this subject. Thank you. Okay, so thank you so much to Cecil for his point of view on life philosophy in Africa. If you have any questions for Cecil, please fill them in in the Mentimeter. Please also make sure that you put his name so we will know at the end which questions are for which speakers. I slowly see some questions coming in, so that is great. So we quickly follow to our next speaker who is Deepak. Yes, perfect. So Deepak, please go ahead. Okay, I'll do a short introduction. No worries. Okay, so Deepak is basically a lecturer at Tilburg University. Some of you guys might know him. He specialized in international law and he will tell us more about African countries and their interactions in the global legal field. He will tell us more about treaties, how were African countries treated after decolonization with setting up these international treaties? How did these African countries interpret Western law and what is the dynamic between African countries and the rest of the Western countries in an international last perspective? Thank you. I will just use this. Okay, thank you everyone. So first of all, just a massive thank you to the African Student Association and in particular Diana and Chinenia for asking me to present today on the topic of origins of African legal thinking. These are really important events to hold, not only just for students to engage with topics and discussions we have in class, but for them to move beyond that and really follow things that you're passionate about and that you want to use your skills and your understanding to really tackle and take on topics that are really key and really important. And also, as I see, I can see some people that are not students, but also for you guys too to engage with what we are working on as academics. So I'm deeply appreciative of being approached to be here today to speak to you all about this topic from not only an international legal history perspective, and sorry Cecil, but also from a legal philosophy perspective also, so I'm stepping on your shoes a tad bit. My research has often been a mix of international legal, everything okay? Okay. So my research has often been a mix of international legal history and legal philosophy philosophy. So I thought it'd be pertinent to discuss African legal thinking from this vantage point. This is a very significant topic of discussion for me, as it represents an important movement that needs to take place across all the academic disciplines, namely that of opening the floodgates to a more diverse way of thinking on a cultural and regional basis. This means to not simply dwell on Western thought as the be all and end all of all academic explorations, as unfortunately it has been often the case on so many occasions, but instead to engage on a mainstream level. And for many of you perhaps not so in tune with the academic discipline, I wouldn't be a surprise if you don't because we do not do a great job of engaging with the wider public. There is a mainstream within all disciplines. And what I would like to see is non-Western thinking provide new ways of thought and fresh solutions to domestic, regional and global matters. So rather than this being a simple talk that just goes through some of the things that I know and researched, I want this to be a call to arms to you all. We need young Africans to help us academics do better. To have African legal scholars that come to the various fields and advance African legal thinking is undeniably important, not only because it is an absolute travesty, that I must promise that I know so little about are talked about so little when we are tempted to answer some of the big global questions. So my talk will take most of its time detailing how international law has fallen short of this and engaged so little with how Africa has some important roles and important vantage points to play. So instead I'm going to look at how Africa is often seen as a place of conquering an acquisition or as victims to the sword of the international legal system. Instead of potentially providing a library for new ideas and new ways of thinking about international law. So I will start by detailing the origins of what is considered the origins of international law and that date is usually considered to be 1648. And this is seen as the watershed moment or seen as the law of nations or what we call today as public international law. Analyzing the genesis of the law of nations, one quickly understands that the catalyst for the law of nations is European in nature. This year 1648 is historically significant for the Treaty of Westphalia that ended the 30-year war that is considered one of the most destructive conflicts in European history lasting from 1618 to 1648. Between 1618 and 1635 the dispute was largely seen as being between the Kingdom of Bohemia and the Habsburgs Monarchy. So this phase of the conflict is considered a German civil war. Other parties such as Sweden or the Spanish Empire were involved but nonetheless the predominant focus is on German members of the Holy Roman Empire. However the second phase of the war became a wider struggle including France, the Dutch Republic, Denmark, Norway along with Sweden and the Spanish Empire. For scholars such as Henry Kissinger the piece of Westphalia is seen as the origins of the principles crucial to modern international relations including the imbalability of borders and the non-interference in the domestic affairs of sovereign states. The piece of Westphalia envisaged a collective security system which obliged parties to defend its provisions against all others. Disputes were to be referred to a peaceful settlement to a legal adjudication process. As mentioned earlier it becomes quite clear that the origins of international law with emphasis on international law is deeply rooted in a European issue. However there are some challenges to 1648 being the origins of international law. In international legal history in particular there are indications of elements of international law taking place in various time points before 1648. For example some authors start by examining the relations and treaties between political entities from ancient times starting from 3000 BC including pre-classical antiquity in the Near East, ancient Greece and Persia and the Romano-Hellenistic period. But regardless when we as lecturers introduce international law to law students or to the wider general public we tend to focus on 1648 as the origins of international law which leads to a wider problem of presenting international law as inherently a European or Western phenomenon. Furthermore in our introductory discussions of international law there is a tendency to refer to Hugo Grosius considered the father of international law as the figure that lay the foundations for the international legal system we have today. We can also know other important international legal scholars during the 16th and 17th century such as Francesco de Vittoria and Alberto Gentili who similarly helped develop the international legal system. So overall our introductory exploration maps international law to be Eurocentric which inevitably under appreciates regional developments in Africa, the Far East, the Islamic world, Latin America, the South and Southeast Asia. Someone that really developed this idea and supported this argument was Arpi Arnand who notes that it is incorrect to assume that international has developed only during the last four or five hundred years and only in Europe or that Christian civilization has enjoyed a monopoly in regard to prescription of rules to govern interstate conduct. As Majid Kaduri points out in each civilization the population tended to develop within itself a community of political entities, a family of nations whose inter-relationships were regulated by a set of practices rather than being a single nation governed by a single authority and the single system of law. Several families of nations existed or coexisted in areas such as the ancient Near East, Greece and Rome, China, Islam and Western Christendom where at least one distinct civilization had developed in each of them. Within each civilization a body of principles and rules developed for regulating the conduct of states were one another in peace and war. So this really highlights and annotates the fact that international law isn't a purely Western phenomenon, it's not a purely Western ideal. There is examples of international law taking place prior to the Eurocentric focus on 1648. So now I want to jump a little forward in the historical timeline of international law and focus in on the 19th century where it is particularly interesting in how hegelmonic powers interacted with Africa. During this period we witnessed a real focus on the differentiation between so-called civilized and non-civilized nations. There was this turn to positivism, a legal philosophy that focuses on conducting law as a science where we don't really engage or interact with political, moral or economic matters and this turned to positivism during the 19th century facilitated such differentiations between so-called civilized and non-civilized nations. As positivists during this period insisted on separating the civilized from the so-called uncivilized, deeming European law to be greater importance over non-European law. Many positivist writers during the 19th century such as Henry Wheaton argue that a different set of rules regulated civilized Europeans and uncivilized non-European nations with connotations inferring perceptions of superiority. Wheaton argued that is there a uniform law of nations. There certainly is not the same for one or for all the nations and states of the world. The public law with slight exceptions has always been and still is limited to the civilized and Christian people of Europe or to those of European origin. Anthony Angi, a very famous contemporary international legal scholar who helped develop the third world approached international law, argued that this allowed European powers to dominate the international legal system and how it would be constructed. He argued that it is simply a massively asserted that only the practice of European states was decisive and could create international law. Only European law counted as law. Non-European states were excluded from the realm of law, now identified as being the exclusive preserve of European states, as a result of which the former were deprived of membership and the ability to assert any rights cognizable as legal. This distinction resulted in the justification of unequal treatment in the international legal system. Non-European nations would be forced to give way to European practices and ambitions. When drawing into Africa during this period, the development of international law paved the way for colonization. In fact, colonial powers, the use of international law during their engagement in Africa, typifies this notion that international law was regularly utilized or even developed for the sake of imperialist ambitions. Examining Britain's interaction with West African polities, the former utilized treaties to acquire more land in the West African region. Treaties were concluded by British Imperial agents with West African leaders on the premise of commercial privileges, the preservation of peace, the abolition of the slave trade, or other humanitarian inspired reasons, paving the way for inserting clauses that provided for the transfer of partial or complete territorial sovereignty. This strategy is evidence when exploring Thomas Buxton's The African Slave Trade and its remedy, where he recounts how African leaders were incentivized to abolish the slave trade and to cede portions of their land for commercial expansionism through the conclusion of these treaties. Furthermore, though the acquisition of land should be considered separate to the acquisition of private property rights and land, the treaties concluded with African communities made illegal encroachments on the land rights of such communities. Such encroachments highlighted that the use of international law and regulating relationships in West Africa had been to the benefit of British interests as various Western doctrines were selectively incorporated into 19th century model of international law for the sake of colonial ambitions. No more is such a phenomenon more apparent than when during the 19th century imperialistic age yet another category was introduced in the international legal doctrine, namely Territorium Nullius. While Territorium Nullius signified empty lands, Territorium Nullius indicated lands devoid of sovereign control by Western states. So ultimately what we see when engaging with the history of international law is that either Africa has been largely excluded from the establishing of the international legal framework or it has been an avenue for expansionist policies for the more powerful states. In rounding up my talk I want to refer to my book States Undermining International Law. Yes I understand that that is a very shameless plug but I promise you that it is relevant. In my book I developed the term emancipatory idealism put simply emancipatory idealism is the idea that the protection of individuals, oops sorry there, of individuals and communities from wars and acts of oppression is of paramount importance in order to prevent the decline of civilization and to ensure that its development continues. The base idea is that each individual or community of individuals has the potential to provide civilizational development on either sociological or technological level if provided the stable economic, legal, political or societal environment. I believe that this is hugely pertinent for when we talk about African legal thinking and how the greater prominence of such thought can foster civilizational development. I would like to see international law be truly international by incorporating non-western ideas so that a legal system designed to maintain international peace and security does not continue the traditions and thinking of a select few. So I'd like to make a request to you all I want you to engage with international law and implement African thinking to the discipline so that we can redefine the international legal system to perhaps pose a more truly global outlook. I understand that is very bold statement to request such a revolutionary rethinking of international law but if we really want a truly international legal system then it is imperative that this movement takes place. Thank you all for your time. Yes so thank you so much Deepak for your point of view on international law in Africa. So again if you have any questions for Deepak please fill them in in the mentee meet. You can scan the QR code or fill in the numbers down below on mentee.com. Our next speaker will be Aurelia. Aurelia welcome. So Aurelia is an international European law graduate specialized in business and human rights, human rights law. So human rights are basically the basic human rights for all afforded to everyone. However she will tell us more about how these human rights may be different from the rights exercised in Africa and she will give her point of view on that. I think this is better here. Good evening everyone. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I'll just reintroduce myself. My name is Aurelia. I am an LLM graduate from Maastricht University so quite recently in such a setup but what makes me stand out is I call myself the Pismatic Queen in the sense that I love to question different dynamics and what they look like and when Diana approached me with the idea that we have to start thinking from an African legal perspective I was very happy because this has been the sort of dilemma that I went I I experienced as well. Having moved here for my bachelor's and my master's as well we are constantly quoting Western authors and sometimes it gets you thinking like what does this look like from an African perspective? If we are the cradle of mankind hey Kenyans at the house don't you think that we also have a little bit of perspective of what law looks like and why is it that we are just focusing on the legal scholars you know from the Western world in that sense. So today I'm going to look at the origin of African legal thinking not from a historical point I will shy away from that a little bit. I will look at it from the human rights perspective because I think normally like you've mentioned with international law there is a bit of a segmented view that certain rights apply on a different angle and human rights are on the other side but as a human rights lawyer I would say that human rights should be the start and finish of all legal thinking. So I will start from there and I will further come up what every argument is coming from the assumption that human rights in that sense or the origin of human rights is inherently Eurocentric sorry if you have a different opinion but I am I am actually deducing from that assumption and then we are going to break down what that looks like. So hopefully this discussion will provide a guidance on you know what is considered doom and gloom in that sense. So we have a problem human rights being inherently Eurocentric and we are trying to come up with solutions or a way forward to it. Quick question or just engage with me a little bit when we talk about human rights what human rights in Africa what comes to your mind just shout out if you can quick one. So basically what I was looking for which has been captured is this general idea when we talk about Africa and human rights majority of just the the thought process of most people come from a violation of human rights perspective rather than the right based but when you come when you look at the European way of thinking when it comes to human rights it is more of right based approach as opposed to violation based approach. So then there's this idea that Africa is the worst violator of human rights yeah and that sometimes is captured in legal thinking it is captured in blogs in news CNN fake news all that which to a certain degree is true. Anyway today I will be looking at three areas and that is the awareness of Eurocentrism in African legal system the shift from Eurocentric approach of human rights and breaking away from a Eurocentric approach so that the breaking away will sort of give us a guidance on what could potentially be a way forward for from the doom and gloom. Like I said I will not go deeply into the historical development but what I always like to put as a disclaimer is that even though we are talking about human rights the manifestation of Eurocentric ideologies is in application enforcement and justiciability of human rights norms should not be used to dismantle the universal need of human rights. So this is to say that we are not going to say just because it's Eurocentric we don't need human rights I think there is a sweet spot that we all need to look for as legal scholars and not really look at it from a point that it is no longer good just because it is Eurocentric and sometimes Eurocentrism awareness should be used as a tool to reflect on the formulation and the future of human rights and that is part of what we will explore. So then I will start by just one second yes so I will go into the awareness of Eurocentric approach in African legal thinking when I had this topic I was thinking of what is bringing a bit of an awareness to people it's setups like this when you are looking at the history of human rights for instance there was a historical dominant ideology of human rights in the sense that initially civil and political rights were very much prioritized over economic social and cultural rights as it is within the Eurocentric right because around that time it was very important after the world war to define to define the political rights and this was sort of the historical development of human rights so then the focus has been so much so civil and political rights and this creates a disconnect with sort of other regions and when I say let me talk of Africa and maybe a bit of Asia and other regions of the world because the way culturally we are set up we culturally economically we sort of end up having a different priority and then there was a hyper focus in unity of human rights norms while ignoring the plurality approach and this is this is just to say that the focus was to make sure that the whole world had a set of human rights norms that we were working with and that's in and of itself is not a problem but it's made it's it came from an assumption that as the world we were all struggling from similar set of human rights problems and the plurality on the other end will be to look at different elements different angles of human rights problems and then collectively work towards unity so you start from the plural nature of different areas regions of the world Africa Asia Europe America and then slowly work towards bringing all the rights together so there has been a focus in first uniting and then fixing the little problems and sometimes that creates a further disconnect and this again brings the awareness because the driving the driving the drivers of unity are more Eurocentric in that sense yeah and then there is arbitrary judgment of non-compliance of human rights and this sometimes comes from review mechanisms such as the periodic review where I have been able to participate in one of the periodic reviews and it's felt like being called out the entire session is more of the biggest violators that is why I asked the first question is the biggest violators of human rights and it is constantly saying in terms of be it social and political or social civil and political social and economic rights eventually it's like Africa is the biggest violator and then out of these discussions there are no when I say arbitrary judgment is there are no way forwards or strategic solutions towards the the lack of compliance so this is not to say that there is compliance per se and it is not properly reported upon this is to say that there is lack of compliance but it does not address the roots of the problem and then the last part will be contrasting human rights priorities and this is what I sort of touched upon in the first historical dominance and when you talk about contrasting human rights priorities is this because of the dominant ideologies there might there are certain rights that are more focused upon and priorities of continents such as Africa and Asia are left not necessarily being targeted in that sense there are no solutions or if there are solutions they're not at the top of the priority in human rights platforms yeah so then we've we've I've sort of touched based on what has been causing the awareness that the disconnect and I will also further look into the factors that are influencing the shift from a Eurocentric approach to human approach of human rights so the first thing I will say is globalization of human rights and by globalization I also globalization and development of human rights the more we are talking about human rights the more we are breaking through the different forms of rights be it social and economic rights or civil and political the more it is developing as a discipline and most people are are now trying to come up are having a better understanding of what is more Eurocentric versus what is a necessity or an approach that could work better in other areas there's this is very controversial but there has been tendencies I'll I say I said what I said there has been tendencies of neocolonialism through human rights in the sense that human rights violation has been used as a tool to drive political policies neocolonial strategies while perpetuating injustices in other instances where human rights the violation itself is is reduced to the let's say African actors while the finances are different are probably for instance from America or from Europe but they are not seen as violators per se um so that has been one of that that element of domination in the conversation of violation has been one of those elements that have uh factors that have influenced the shift and then um there's the afrocentric human rights defenders and by human right defenders I mean um people like Diana people like me uh lawyers judges uh civil society because up until recently human rights was more the the driving factors were very Eurocentric in that nature but because of development because of you know um the idea of dominance and trying to balance out the power and information as well uh more human rights defenders are looking at human rights from a very afrocentric uh african centered solution area so I will think those I think those are some of the factors influence influencing the shift um there's the african centered judicial and human rights institution and these ones are regional and national as well such as the african court of justice um african court of peoples and human rights and what I wanted to highlight to this again I had an opportunity of uh interning with the african court and even during our stay there we were encouraged to look at certain research from a very african centric perspective in a way that it would work for instance if you're dealing with um uh what is it called yeah there are not not pass a right to life but uh right to fair trial we were trying to really look into what does it look like from um african perspective considering that um when you bring a case to the african court there are certain um issues that might influence such as uh governance in that might influence the case in that sense and you know political protection and all that that is not really a Eurocentric problem if you think about it in the strict sense but from an african perspective that is something that we had to think so these centers um or other organizations such as the african commissions of people and human rights they're really central to uh influencing the shift and and then again I will say contrasting human rights priorities we're getting to a place where we are more developed we understand the dynamics but we are trying to come up with with the priorities sort of differ there and it comes from the idea that africa is not you know it's not a homogeneous we don't have a homogeneous problem and different areas need different have different priorities certain areas are more in need of civil and political protection of human rights and other areas are seeking or are striving for more economical uh social and cultural rights and then finally yeah yeah okay african legal scholars um so the last part is just to break down what could be the solution so i have african legal scholars or legal professionals been um a driving factor towards the breaking away of eurocentrism yes um how do they do that interdisciplinary uh thought leadership so that is uh scholarly work legal president and this is where I also encourage people to if you're a blogger and you have done your research publish that I know social media now is also another driving factor um as opposed to what was considered uh legal scholarly work so there is need for innovation legal creativity uh from non-progressive practices example naming and shaming that happens during periodic reviews it is it has been established that well I will be ashamed but not for long so we need to work on better mechanisms that help uh drive uh human rights and then transparently redefining african compliance of human rights and self-determination and global participation so in conclusion we need people like you and me to drive yeah um african narrative of what human rights looks like and not just human rights but other legal ideologies as well thank you yes so thank you so much Aurelia for your point of view on human rights in africa again if you have any questions for Aurelia please feel free uh to ask them if you prefer to ask them live afterwards we will walk around to the mic and you can ask them live as well um so I would like to welcome our next speaker Rekina so Rekina has an extensive background in law and technology she currently works as a data protection officer at doctors without borders and she will tell us more about how different legal practices in africa from the west and she will particularly give us a nigerian account for this thank you very much I would like to thank the organizers of this event african student session of tibok university very very inspired by what you're doing and by the talk we've had so far on all the speakers that have come before me um so my name is Rekina Isong um I'm a legal practitioner um called to the nigerian bar um 2005 and my contribution to the conversation today is um basically to talk about the practical realities of of legal practice of law the legal profession in africa particularly in Nigeria um I'm going to be painting a picture of what is maybe a little bit of background of how we got here what is and maybe hopefully from young bright minds like you um discover how we can move forward um and take the legal profession um yeah to be more impactful to everyday life in in africa so just to paint uh give a little background overview especially particularly like I said from the nigerian perspective um you the legal profession is very much um in a what I say there are two aspects to it there there is the african legal uh philosophy african body of legal ideas and rules and traditions that we follow and that is um under the customary law aspects of the of law and then we have the um westernized legal system that came to us as a village as a result of um colonialism so that also exists on the other side but there is kind of like a hierarchy um unfortunately with the legacy of colonialism it means inadvertently or as you know directly as a result the customary law is subservient to the what is in Nigeria common law the constitutional law and all that stuff like that and we try or we try to see how we can bring the two together um so the customary law exists um where yeah we if you have disputes with your neighbors you go there because we have is saying that when you take your brother to court and as speakers before us before me have said africa we have a communal understanding of who a person is um so we have the saying that when you take your brother to court you don't come back as brothers anymore and by that we mean the western court um we don't mean the customary court the customary court you can still go there and come back as brothers but the hierarchy exists in such a way that if you do not agree with or there's still some further dispute between the customary court decision and the western court decision then the western court decision will supersede so it always like the customary court is lower and then the the western court is higher and one problem also or one issue that causes a bit of disconnect and I just before I get there I I became a lawyer like most african people become lawyers because your parents make you to become lawyers so you're either going to be a doctor or engineer or a lawyer so those are disruptions you have nothing else or you're a disgrace to your family and to the whole community but um yeah and I know that that the law and I guess all of us here in this room understand the power and the impact that the law that the law can have in in in shaping society in bringing about peace and prosperity and progress to to people um but the difficulty there is that when the law is superimposed on you and the language of the court is english the language of the court is english language and although english language is your is the official language not everybody in anglia speaks english um so how does how do you make use of the law how does the everyday person know how valuable it can be what a useful tool it is to uplift their lives when they cannot even speak the language of the law that is maybe question that we can um see and explore and find ways to solve it so you become a lawyer because your parents make you you go to university in anglia you do undergraduates for um five years i'm trying to pick up in the picture of actual yeah you're a lawyer in anglia what does that mean how do you get there miss five year bachelor's and then when you finish your bachelor's you will go to the nigerian law school and then your law school is for one year after one year you write exam you're called to buy pass exam and then out to the wild world go and be a lawyer um it's it's very challenging it's very um it's hard it's hard um young lawyers in anglia um if you want to get rich as a lawyer you will eventually but not at the beginning so you really need a lot of financial support you need a lot of financial aid um you really must love what you do and you really must have people that that support and back you up which also in in unfortunately perpetuates the elitism of of the legal profession of of law and the language is english and then you have to be of um yeah you have to have some financial um where without to be able to study the you study the to do the career and then practice law before you're able to take care of yourself and your family which is the digital of every african person you don't just take care of yourself you take everybody else you need at least five years in the profession at the very minimum for you to be at a place where okay i can now feed myself and feed my parents feed my you know stuff like that um so it's it's it's a lot of work um there are a lot of challenges also um with regards to um when you come with ideas or you know you're a lawyer now you want to take the wall you want to take over and you know do good things and then you're you're hit with the reality that um yeah maybe it's not as as maybe justice is not maybe the picture that i thought justice was you have to manage your expectations um we hope and we we we are you know we we hope that we can have a judiciary where yeah that is actually free from influence but that is not always the case there are some cases that you that you are involved in and you do and you know that yeah you did not really get justice at least not in the way that you ask what you think just or what justice ought to be right um in sometimes also it may not necessarily be um may not necessarily be all negative i think our judges need to be encouraged to be creative in their solutions not everything copy paste from from yeah from the common law system not everything's applicable we should find as the speaker before me um i'm sorry you have to be beautiful name i really yeah i really i yeah said we should have find a happy medium between um what you know the western way and our way and what what the happy year what what what we can do what solutions that we can bring not necessarily sticking to the past in terms of our customer traditions which are valuable but you know coming forward also but not necessarily you know copy pasting everything the way it's quote unquote supposed to be if it's not practical if not useful to everyday life what is the value of your what's the value of the judgment what's the value of the law yeah what's the value to to everyday people so when you you argue your cases and one one thing you quickly quickly realize that yeah this law is not it's not an african it is not an african at least the law in terms of the western law that we practice when you go to school and all that is the the outfits that we wear i don't know if you guys know but you are in africa you are in the hot sun is 35 degrees 37 degrees maybe even 40 degrees and you are wearing all the things that you know that your british overlord said you should wear to be proper lawyer you're wearing a heavy suit you're wearing your wig you're wearing your gown it is hot it is very hot and there are lots of conferences about whether or not we still need to hang on to those things right um yeah it's part of this the reality that yeah this is not something that we would have thought about on our own but yeah but it's it is what it is um um but yeah in Nigeria especially lawyers are very very useful lawyers especially human right lawyers they they are very bold very courageous their challenge decisions and a lot of freedoms that we have we have freedoms that are in the constitution in the text but they don't come to life unless unless everyday lawyers take those kind of cases take hard cases to court and challenge them and say what does this mean in perhaps what does it mean for me what does it really mean or you have the right to property right for example you have the right to own your property but then you have corrupt police corrupt government they come and seize your property and you know seize your you know put you in prison unjustly and then you go to court and you challenge that and then there's a judgment and they say no you cannot do this unless you do blah blah blah and then people now know because of the notoriety of it and they know that yeah they you know they can they can they can also enforce their own rights and they can also use a lot to to to safeguard themselves and and their communities so yeah um yeah there are many branches in many aspects that you can use your your logic before you guys are well aware of that you can um we have like we have one system we do not have a by like the way the in the u k they have two systems solid soil or or barista and then drives together maybe the same with also mother countries too um but when you actually go out i want to push you out into the world and you can decide for yourself which area of law you want to focus on um you can join the law firm you can decide to um be a public prosecutor or defender in the ministry of justice you can go into academia you can go to judiciary so there are many there are many avenues um some are more open than others some are more fair than others but you can carve a space for yourself and um you can be encouraged as young african lawyers or young african law students that that the future is bright for you um yeah and that you can use your education to to improve your life and improve the life of your family and improve the life of your community and um more now more than ever african voices are we are using them we're using our voices we are speaking up we are saying yeah it doesn't have to everything doesn't always have to be seen from one lens and maybe you look at it also from our point of view and from our and from our perspective so yeah that is basically what i came here to say today um the legal profession is good it's fun even when your parents make you to do it they they are parents for a reason our parents know everything thank you very much okay so thank you so much for i can now for your insights on the practical um matter of practicing law in nigeria so again if you have any questions for rock and i please feel free to ask them um now we'll have a short q and a session a short panel discussion uh about the topics we discussed today um i would like to ask my speakers i hope Cecil is still online um i would like to ask my speakers to come forward we will set up a few chats here for you to sit down and we'll uh we will uh you will have the chance to answer all the questions uh diana will walk around in the public if you have any questions you would like to elaborate on or if you prefer to ask your question live diana will be walking around with a mic um and i will be here um giving the questions that were mentioned in the mantimeter still feel free to give any questions i hope we'll have the chance to answer them all okay so i have a first question uh specifically specifically for everyone which is it's an increase of international law in private and public law desired from an african perspective i've just been given the uh micro french straight away um so i would say yes i mean it just falls in line um in terms of what i was talking about earlier in terms of international law's foundations are so western so i think that expansion is needed and that rethinking is needed we need to incorporate not just african perspectives but just generally non-western perspectives so i think on my perspective i think we do need that expansion um that rethinking and reworking of both private international law and public international law because oftentimes when we're dealing with issues we're dealing with problems we're applying law with we are kind of focused on what's kind of the european approach or what's the western ambitions and aims and then you know non-western ambitions are kind of fallen to the wayside because of the structure so again uh i already mentioned and talked about human rights human rights is so western focused and that needs that expansion so our goals and aims and understandings of how to actually have a more universal human rights is perhaps more applicable i will hand over to i will repeat the question the question was is an increase of international law in private and public law desired from an african perspective is an increase of international law in private and public law desired from an african perspective desired yeah yeah i mean there's need there's uh need for that because the idea behind any legal um perspective or any law is to in is to be in a discriminatory uh and to be inclusive so if we do not look at it from not only an african perspective but from a very uh worldwide perspective we are going to start losing the legitimacy of any kind of international law be it human rights um public international law as well so in order to maintain the integrity of the law it is important that we start looking at it from different lenses and not just regional lenses but also um in terms of um racial lens and gender based lens so there is need for a wider application of this areas of law i'll first start by saying that i'm not an expert on international law um but as an african as an observer i would say absolutely it's very much desired very much needed i think um it's it's the way it's structured right now um for example i would just say the the united nations um what i see most impactful um the UN Security Council there's no african representative there there's no african voice there when you look at the the international court of justice the international criminal court yeah a lot of their judgments and their cases against african leaders um that is not to say from my perspective i will say that it's african leaders alone that are being guilty of um some of these offenses or or crimes that they are standing trial for they've been convicted for and i'm not saying that when african leaders do the wrong thing that they should not stand justice i'm saying that it should not only be african leaders that should stand justice so yeah absolutely from my point of view it's very much needed um our voices should be heard at the UN Security Council um the way the international courts are structured um we should see justice there so that we feel like it's yeah we are participatory we're not just the the um the bad example you know we should not only be the bad example of what not to do um yeah i think bad behavior happens all over in the world also and we see that so when it happens there should also be called out with the same strength with the same force with the same energy as they come after african african um bad actors also that's from my personal point of view i don't represent any anybody here thank you okay interesting um so aurelia you just mentioned inclusivity and regional differences um i would like to come back with that with another question so considering the regional diverse needs and priorities in different places in africa are universal are universal are universal human rights desired or would they make sense yes they do make sense um they make sense in terms of um providing the rights that's um can be just sociable that can be uh brought before a court they provide the right to um the right that people can depend on um the only thing is we need again um to make sure that in its application because they're right the if you look at any law specifically also human rights the right itself has never been the problem the problem is the application of of the right so what is the application and what is the effect of the right so um for instance we can talk about things like right to housing and in an in and of itself it is something that can we can say it's a worldwide right but it might not apply to for instance nomadic communities so what what is needed is more of um universe not a universal application but more of a strategic application of those universal rights so the rights don't have a problem the application sometimes is the problem okay perfect so then i'll have a question for d park in which ways do you yourself envisage international law being truly internationalized um so i think from a i'm going to talk about it from an academic perspective but having non-western academics not have to bring their work forward in relation to western thought so oftentimes what we do see in conferences and in discussions or even papers that in order to get published or in order to get into these conferences you have they have to compare and contrast uh to uh western thinking or western perspectives and i think that's one avenue where if you are going to talk about west um non-western perspectives that you don't have to talk about cant or or um hegel or any of those figures you can go straight into that discussion because then the whole discussion about non-western thought isn't necessarily about that but comparing and contrasting so i think to have a more truly international um at least scholarly debate it's allowing these um perspectives and allowing these um scholars to talk about it without this pressure of um having to discuss western legal thought i remember being in a conference um there was a japanese scholar who says in order for me to get into a conference in order for me to get my papers published i have to mention western legal thought and that's a real problem so we're not really having non-western legal thought be in the mainstream it's kind of this the spicy interesting exotic thing that we get to look at if we've got time but it isn't kind of the main focus and i think that's where international law from a scholarly perspective at least can be a bit more international okay perfect um in the meantime are there any uh life questions okay then i'll have a question for rekena what advice would you give someone who wants to work in tech law in africa i would say go for it um it's the it's yeah it's it's um i think africa has one of the fastest growing um internet users technology hubs so absolutely go for it um yeah be yeah the sky's your limit really it's very much um an area of law that as far as law is concerned even here in the west it's a relatively new area of law right we're not talking about non-law or human rights law that have hundreds and hundreds of years of of um legal experience behind it um technology law is very much um still and green field and there's lots of space and there's lots of opportunities and i would say absolutely go for it be fearless and be your thing okay very inspiring would you mind if i ask a question yes of course okay so this is for rekena um how would you say the dynamics that you described so a discrepancy between law being seen as an elitist mostly english based tool versus society's perception of um what the law is in Nigeria how would you say that dynamic plays into data protection law do you think many um let's say businesses are willing to take claims to courts or is that there's the perception still hold i think businesses do not have a lot of the disconnect but the disconnect is more with individuals with with persons right and by businesses i'm not talking of uh you know sole proprietorship one person doesn't mean like you know a company quote unquote i think i think they are very much um aware and they exercise their rights they know how to navigate the legal system because actually they can afford they can afford the legal expense the disconnect is more with with every person um yeah to even be aware of what their rights are because again the law is in english it's um it's written in english it's written in english even when they take their claims to court and they want to say something they will need to um get an interpreter which may be difficult to try to get so it's the struggle is with every person it's not necessarily with with um yeah with companies or with corporations and that's where it's unfortunate because most people in africa dukaya are not uh company owners and are not part of corporations they're everyday ordinary people and we need to bridge that gap and make the law accessible to everyone that answer thank you okay for rick and i again i'd like to continue on what you just said so do you then think that african lawyers have a better chance of making a different difference inside of africa or outside um i think yeah i think i think the the rigors that being an african layer brings oh yeah this this i think if you can succeed in africa you can succeed anywhere because it's not easy at all and i'm not saying it's easy anywhere else but if it's not easy here then it's much much much more difficult in africa um yeah the conditions for study are we are very it's very hard it's very hard so if you can persevere if you can pull through um yeah you stay humble when you come you know when you come to the west then then yeah you can you can you you you can hold your ground understand your ground with anybody you should not feel less down you should not feel or inadequate in any way if you're here then you are the same like everybody else and there's space for you and there's room for you and you can grow um you can grow and yeah you can hold your own and it opens up your mind because when you're in conversations you're in discussions even at work or in school people are interested to hear your point of view and you come with a perspective that maybe they do not have and they haven't considered you know because of your african background so you hear that point of view and you share yours also yeah um that's there's there's nothing stopping you from stopping an african lawyer african student from yeah reaching reaching for this guy nothing at all okay very well um in the meantime are there any questions from the audience deanna thank you i have a question are there a country other countries or regions in the world where you can learn from because your philosophical system or a philosophical system in africa is like ubuntu is you're only a human in relation to other humans so body and soul are one and in the west body and soul are separate so that's a big difference in other regions there are philosophical systems that seems more like that of africa so i think for instance of buddhism there are also body and soul are one so can you learn from other countries like india or china or some other regions in the world to improve the legal system in africa yeah i i i like where you're going with that because yeah there are areas for instance when i when you think about mainstreaming of african ideologies um buddhism is something that is widely spoken about and it's of course done by the buddhists to them themselves but we find that as much as african religious ideologies or cultural ideologies were considered primitive in that nature so was it done in areas like uh asia so it is upon us of course to also start mainstreaming our ideas and the best way to do that is not to depend first of all with uh to highly depend on the scholars be it legal be it cultural be it the interdisciplinary uh areas where maybe culture meets religion and law but uh the best way to do that is also start be be creative and i i am also feeling the need to i to address that i know not everyone here is african but there is friends of afric a concept called friends of africa that's what i call anyone who is affiliated to africa in that sense so they're also friends of africa who are allies as well so there is need for collaboration that will also drive to the mainstreaming of african ideologies such as bringing ubuntu to light and other concepts that are in a way still bringing togetherness and unity which basically that is what the law is trying to do um yeah there's there's a lot of different ways to look at that in terms of looking at um how different legal systems can provide different solutions i think uh the truth and say reconciliation commission in south africa is a great example that being innovative and thinking about how to actually uh heal the wounds of a regime that had caused so much destruction so i think absolutely and i think one way in which not just kind of african philosophies but non-western philosophies overall can really contribute is this idea of the community over the individual i think that's something that's really necessary and essential about talking about how human rights can then be enacted and can be applied in a more applicable manner so yeah i definitely think you know appreciating how these different philosophies view uh the world and have those different perspectives can just enriching how the international legal system or how we see law um as a whole um yes um i think i think um absolutely we can we can learn a lot from from from uh especially of course we we already are very familiar i would say with with western legal thoughts in africa um but we can also very much learn from from from asia and one thing i really admire about um the asia about asia especially i would say india because i think to a large degree they have similar history with nigeria but lots of africa but one thing i really admire about that is that um unlike what we did a lot in africa we did not just um they held on very greatly to a lot of their their yeah their cultures their traditions their religion um did not jettison it so quickly because of the new thing that had come and they find found a way to to have both side by side and maybe that is testament to why they are doing a little bit better than africa is doing i think we can learn from that we have our values and our values are valuable we can also learn from others um from other cultures and other you know systems and see what we can learn from that and add and feed into us without you know throwing everything away that we have or because we now want to adopt this next new thing but see what fits within us and what sits within us as as africans and be part of ourselves but also yeah learn from where we can and add to our to us also grow collectively thank you very much okay i have a question that um connects to that it might be difficult for you to answer but i'm just gonna ask it so it's a question for everyone um in what ways do you see the field the field of psychology or sociology contributing to african legal systems wow uh uh uh oh that is difficult um i can give you more thinking time yeah i'm trying to process um i think the the first approach is to honor interdisciplinary um norms that we get from psychology because to basically as a lawyer for instance criminal law you always have to think to a greater extent what's in terms of psychological um approach or so in in a way i will see it as any other interdisciplinary um field that provides or shine lights it's the in the past we have always looked at different disciplines as inter as independent but now we need to start looking at any discipline be it religion psychology sociology everything is connected and i know i sound like a unicorn lover right now and i am um but everything is very much interconnected and based on that we have to start looking when i say i am a psychmatic queen is because i always try and connect what everything could lead towards a particular topic and lawyers were known to be very much um practical in that nature but i think the world is developing to an area where we have to start embracing other disciplines that will help us um not only spread the law but also understand the law on a deeper level i hope answered the question what's particularly bad about me just dodging that question was i've just taught a few of you a few hours ago about this topic so for me to draw blank like that it was pretty horrendous so um so yeah well i'm just renditioning what i've just taught some of you guys so um it's really important to actually look at kind of social legal approaches to law so to understand how certain laws come about and how certain laws are developed how legislation is developed and that psychological understanding those kind of cultural and political underpinnings that develop or decide those choices that are made are really important so yeah i think you know looking at how um certain cultural norms are prevalent within one society are essential because it helps you understand how certain legal practices come about why do certainly legislation why certain legislation developed um in the way it is because of those historical lineages so for example let's look at um india how it's moved from a common law system because of um that impact of the british empire things like so you understand that development so i think psychology is one of those aspects in terms of understanding why we get the laws and the legislation that we do and i have nothing to add to that everything they say i stand by it okay i saw too we have a question in the back yeah go ahead okay so i grew up in a very nigerian household like it there was no democracy it felt like a a dictatorship kind of thing so i was also very much pressured into studying law or medicine so that is very true we settled on psychology at the end um i guess my question is for us that did not take the legal route or are not in that field but still like want to have an impact and see what's going on in their home countries and aren't well not happy with what's happening but are not in that space to make an impact so powerful how how can we still be helpful in a way um i don't know one very good question really very good question so you are you know you corroborate what i said your parents make you do stuff so i'm happy yeah somebody in the audience agrees um i don't want you know you or anyone else to think that um at least that we are saying that the only way you can contribute is through the legal profession and the reason why we made a at least the reason why i made my talk so legal centric is because of the topic today right there are africa is in need of um a lot and law is just one way in which in which we can achieve something um um there are many ways there are many parts and today especially with with um with um how yeah with with the possibility of influencing people a lot in terms of the use of social media that lots of young people are engaged in um yes you can you can make a lot of impact you can have your voice heard you don't even have to be in Nigeria to speak to Nigerians yeah they are find a space find a niche there are lots of um um humanitarian organizations lots of NGOs lots of groups many many avenues in which voices can be heard and Nigeria is not just or Africa is not just oh this is the way in which you want to go of what is on the table or perspective or welcome and a lot of disciplines you know feed off of each other feed off of each other so yeah um sociology psychology law the sciences everything is interconnected and today's talk was just about law because we are you know kind of focusing on that today but that is not to say at all that that is the one way and the best way or the only way not at all is just one way there are many many parts to to to helping us achieve the Africa that would we want to see uh what's your name blessing are you an expert in your own right simply because uh your your life experiences have led you to where you are right now so for anyone who sits and doubts if they are able to make an impact just know that whatever life experience has thrown at you has made you an expert so at least that's what I tell myself every day when I wake up in the morning but I understand sometimes in such platforms or when you are in a culture that magnifies certain areas even within the law some of us are considered for lack of a better word trash um so um you have to define for yourself what success looks like and that is outside of what what is mainstreamed in that sense and that will allow you when you define what success looks like to you it will allow you room for creativity and it will it will make you be part of a solution the world needs more solution than big names you know than the lawyers and the doctors because even lawyers need psychologists a lot so um if you start working with that mentality that you are you are an expert in your own right especially when you come here I know their voices that are bigger because I had a similar experience you have to constantly remind yourself that you're an expert and not only reminding yourself but also work towards being an expert in whatever makes you happy so I'd say two things first of all you being here is already an input so you're taking away something and you're able to then discuss these topics and these matters to a wider community which is something that we I'm saying as academics don't do enough of we're too scared of the wider public for some reason um but I think you know you coming here and engaging with us and then taking something away and then discussing that with your family with your friends that is already important and enough in itself and then also you're like everyone's saying here you're an expert in psychology you've got expertise but you've also got a perspective on your own vantage point that can help add and and instill a new direction a new way of thinking about psychology and that can be an African perspective so yeah it doesn't matter what discipline you're in if you can kind of bring that to the table that's going to be what's going to be really useful we then rethink our kind of understandings of certain relationships we have with one another on a psychological basis um based on the various customs of thinking so you know that that ideal is more important than actually focusing on oh it's only through law or politics that can we can engage in this way I think bring that perspective to the table it's going to help all the disciplines yes okay so I'm happy to see that all of you guys enjoyed the lectures because I have a lot of questions more than than I can possibly ask tonight I have a short five minutes left so I would like to ask everyone who asked the question through menthe meter and it hasn't been answered yet and it's urgent please feel free to raise your hand so you can ask it live because again I have a lot of questions and I won't be able to ask all of them tonight yeah go ahead so my question is actually to both Deepak and Aurelia no it's to all of you um would you say that the conception of international law the way it is in the world right now um if it was more holistic if it was more if it took account of our um unique contexts more would the goals of international law be better achieved for example international peace or order security uh okay uh this is where the cynic in me comes into play and I would say no because uh the way international law works is it's very dependent upon those hegemonic powers um if those hegemonic powers don't really see an incentive in in maintaining international peace and security then it doesn't matter we look at the syrian civil war um why there's been no consensus on that situation it is because China is very much against intervention we've got russia that's quite supportive of of syria and the regime in play and you've just got to divide this so yes perhaps more perspectives will encourage discussions and encourage perhaps more support so having uh as Recona mentioned a more uh representative um security council would definitely help but it's still difficult because international law is so dependent upon the political drives that are taking place over time I would say representation about us even if uh it is to um let's say a very minor uh level representation matters because if I mentioned something about uh african priorities having african priorities might be very different from you know uh fighting russia and ukraine you know that kind of we might have different priorities that might help in a global setup so in that sense if more representation of not only africa but other regions of the world apply then I think we will have a more inclusive will there be peace per se or you know a perfect world now but it will be a step towards yeah a better application implementation and enforcement of international law um yeah um I think one way in which um international law can would I say have more faith and be able to achieve the big goals that it sets for itself it's very much in my point of view the in the area of enforcement um it seems that um some people treat the geneva conventions as the geneva suggestions um and true true so it should be um less reliant on political will of whoever the leader of susan so big country is it should be less reliant on that uh with international law needs to strengthen its enforcement mechanism I don't know how that can be done and maybe that is something for deepak and arelia's colleagues to think about but um from a you know practical point of view when you have nice laws but you cannot enforce them really what are those really call them laws you know so when you when we fix the area of enforcement in a fair and you know impartial way when that is able to be achieved then I think the goals will because sometimes law is not just relying on good behavior it's because um you know that the police will come and arrest you if you don't do the right thing then it will be most forward so when international law gets to that point where um it can be enforceable in a fair and you know equitable way manner then I think we can make great strides in achieving yeah global peace and all the goals that we talked about so