 All right, good evening, everyone. Okay, how many of you are excited to learn about the market tonight? If you are, can you type M in the chat, M stands for market. Exactly what's going to happen in 2020 and beyond. So today, I'm going to share with you my insights into the market. I've done a lot of research, many different data just to show you what is the potential outcome for 2024. In fact, later on, I will also be bringing an expert. He is super, super, super good in terms of all this data. All right, and he's going to share with you his view onto the market as well. So right now, I'm just going to make sure that you guys can hear me. If you can hear me, can type M in the chat. All right, hello, Kevin. Okay, good to see you. Okay, let me just also announce to the Telegram starting now. Okay, so that more of you guys can join as well. Okay, because tonight we have a lot of interesting insights, market updates that I want to give you guys. I want to make sure more people can tune in so that we can all learn together. All right, so all right, I can see that you guys can hear me. Hello, Kotting. Hello, Kelvin. How are you guys doing? Fantastic. All right, so now I'm going to share my slides up. If you guys can see my slides, can you also type S in the chat? How many of you can see my slides? You can see my slides clearly type S in the chat. Now, today bump into, bump into you online. Oh, yes, thank you. You did, you did. How did you bump into me online, Kelvin? Okay, you mean now is it? All right, great, fantastic. Now, S Kotting said yes. All right, how many of you? Hi Timothy, good to see you. All right, wow, it's a very cute icon that you have a cat. Very cute, very cute. All right, so now before I share with you my market updates, I'm very curious to hear from what you think right now about the market situation. Do you think the market is it too high right now? All right, is it too low right now? Or do you think it's still at fair value? Is it cheap, expensive, or is it fair? Okay, can you put it in the chat? I'm curious to learn from you as well. Because just this year alone, the market has gone up 23.5%. So if you have been investing for the past one year, congratulations, you will have definitely made money. All right, so how many of you are happy that I actually made money? All right, so, wow, Kelvin, you made a lot of money. Yeah, how about the rest? All right, what do you think about the market situation right now? Because it has gone up so much. Do you think it's going to go up further, going down, or going sideways? What do you think? In fact, when I posted this question inside my Telegram channel, I felt that it was a very good response because all of you guys have different thoughts. 66% of you, okay, let me just unshare, 66% of you guys think that the market is going to go up further, while 15% of you guys think that it's going down, and 19% of you don't know what's happening. So tonight I'm going to share with you my insights so that it can give you more clues. So for those who already have your own opinions, okay, fantastic as well. So by listening to my data, my point of view, maybe it can also give you some additional new insights, and that's how we get to learn from each other as well. Big boost this year, if you bought NVIDIA, right, fantastic. Okay, it is indeed a very, very great company, right. So need to see TA as well. Okay, so that's what we are going to see tonight as well. Some of the TA, some of the charts, so that's to give you more holistic understanding of the overall market. Now, before we go into the charts and everything, right. Now, very important question is, is it cheap or expensive right now? Because as an investor, you always want to make sure you buy when it's undervalued, right. So let's say if it's a $1, this water bottle is worth $1. You want to buy it when it's cheaper than $1, right. You want to buy it at $0.50, you want to buy it at $0.30, right. That is the concept of value investing, buy it under value. So the question is, is the market undervalued right now, or is it overvalued, means expensive. Now, how many of you have heard of this indicator called Buffet indicator? If you have, can you type Buffet in the chat, right. So now what is Buffet indicator? Basically, it shows whether it's the market expensive or cheap based on its own calculation, its own algorithm, right. So now guys over here, the historical trend line is the zero, right. It's a zero, which is the gray line. So anything above is considered expensive. Anything below is considered cheap. So now guys, can you tell me right now, right, based on this Buffet indicator, is it expensive or is it cheap right now? E or C, what do you think? What do you think? I think it's pretty obvious, right. Because right now the charts has actually gone up, not just slightly above, but actually plus one standard deviation. That means actually it has come up quite a lot, right. In fact, during the 2020 period, right, after the market went down, right, and then there was a V-Shift recovery. Do you remember, right, that was like three years ago, right. There was a V-Shift recovery. Therefore, so a period of time, the standard deviation is actually plus two. So it was like way above the valuation, right. That's when actually the market eventually came down. So in this case right now, actually right now the market is actually considered relatively expensive. Definitely not cheap because it's still above the historical trend line, right. So Calvin said it's bullish. What do you mean we are bullish? I'm talking about is it expensive or is it cheap based on Buffet indicator, okay. So hi Calvin, good to see you here. Good to see you. Hi Calvin, thanks for joining us as well. All right, so based on this, this is expensive, all right. So how many of you understand the same conclusion? If you understand, I can type E in the chat. All right, I just want to make sure everybody understand the logic, the chain of thoughts. So the next time as you are reviewing the market by yourself, you can also have a better understanding, all right. So participate so that you can learn better as well. So from the first one, it's considered expensive. Now for those who actually go to the Buffet indicator website, right, they will also tell you right now, the market is considered overvalued, which means expensive right now, all right. If you want to go deeper into how the Buffet indicator is being calculated, you just Google, right, Buffet calculator. They will be able to show you the breakdown as well, all right. Now the second thing, all right, is you also want to look at Warren Buffett's cash holding, right. How many of you agree that Warren Buffett, he is a very, very conservative investor, right. He only want to invest when the market gives him a lot of opportunities. So vice versa, if he is holding a lot of cash, what does that mean? Okay guys, what do, what does that mean? When he's holding so much cash, that means he's not buying, what does that mean, right. In fact, his cash holding position has ballooned to $157 billion, all right. Right, this is kind of one of the highest record. And that's why, right, it also shows that Buffett, he think that currently there is nothing to buy, right. And on top of that, he also sees that possibly there is a storm brewing and that's why he is not buying right now, all right. So guys, so what do you think? From these two data that we studied so far, right, is this considered expensive right now? What do you think? If you think it's considered expensive, type two in the check, right, because this is the second evidence, right. So evidence one, which is the Buffett indicator, evidence two, Buffett cash holding position, right. This is the second evidence, right. Now, ultra high net worth exactly, right. So he has $157 billion in cash that just idle down there, do nothing. Okay, he's just buying very short term treasury bond, right, because he can liquidate it very easily, right. So now let's take a look at third evidence, all right, which is the PE ratio of the S&P 500. So now guys, anybody remember as we share in our class, right, in our option class, in our investing class, we always talk about benchmarking the PE ratio, right. So under what circumstances, under what value is considered fair value, okay. If the PE ratio is below what, then this value is considered fair. Anybody remember, all right, what is that magic number that we actually shared in class previously, all right. If you forgot, the answer is 15, okay. So if it's below 15, wow, the market is really, really cheap, all right. It's considered fair value, all right. However, if it's above 15, which right now is actually way above 15, right now it's 31.9 already, it's close to 32. Can you see that, so based on PE ratio, now it's almost double, yeah, exactly, right. And if you look at the 2020 back then, right, 2020, when the market go up so much and then eventually crash, right. So at that time it was close to 40, right. So right now we are inching up again, inching upwards again, right. So some of you are saying that, yeah, now it's getting a little bit too expensive, right. So this is evidence number three. How many of you can see that? You can see that, can you type three in a chat, okay. So I'm presenting to you all the evidence. In the end, you can decide for yourself, right. Is it cheap or expensive, right. So now evidence number four, okay. Even Singaporeans are feeling the heat, right. And our Prime Minister Lee, recently he made this remark, right. No recession for Singapore this year, despite sluggish economy. But, okay, but very importantly, 2024 remains uncertain, right. Now how many of you can feel that actually there's a lot of uncertainty inside the economy right now. If you feel so, can you type U in the chat, okay. U stands for uncertainty, right. Now with economy slowing down, definitely the spending power of, you know, every one of us will reduce, right. So when the spending power reduce, then very likely the companies will not be able to make as much as profit as it used to be. So as a result, when their earnings reduce, right. The stock price will also likely to be affected as well. So in this case, if the recession does come, it could potentially impact the stock market. So that's why this is evidence number four, okay. So can everybody type four in the chat. Now, GST 9% is confirmed. Yes, exactly, why like that, right. Wow, economy is uncertain, but GST is certain. The government also need more money from us. Oh, you must be a good citizen that contribute, okay. This one cannot evade, so no evasion at all, okay. So that's why with all these factors coming in, right. I realize this chart right now, in fact, do you know that the Dow Jones, right, just broke its highest record. What does that mean is the market has already gone back up to the highest point, right. Previously, for the past one year, right, because it's keep on going up. Previously, a lot of people have been waiting, saying, ah, I think the market is going to crash, you know, it's going to go down some more. They never buy, they never invest. And end up, now they miss out all the profits. And on top of that, in fact, right now, it's at the highest point. So this is a very tricky point. How many of you agree, right. If you feel that this point, wow, the highest point again, can it go up even more or will it start to come down? How many of you feel it's a little bit tricky and uncertain? If you can feel so, right, can you type U in the chat, right. So exactly during this uncertainty, you need to really learn how to navigate, right. And that's why today I don't want to just be the person who share, right. Because both of you guys have heard about my sharing before, right. And I just want to make sure I invite another expert to give you a different perspective, more additional market insights so that you can make better decision for your own investment as well, right. And in fact, I want this expert, he is so good at the overall economic situation, right. He has been consistently being able to predict the interest rate. Now, it seems like mission impossible, but he has been consistently on the right track, predicting the interest rate trend and everything, right. So that's why without further ado, let's welcome Ethan from Unbeatable Mortgage to be here. Hi, Ethan. Hello, Chloe. Thank you for having me back. Hello, everybody. Hi. Hi. Happy to be here. Yeah, I can see a lot of you guys are so eager to learn from Ethan, right. Tessa said I want to learn more. All right. Well, Kelvin said you are pro already. I think he listened to our sharing before. Then he felt that one. Hello. Hi. Thank you. Say hi, Ethan. Good to see you. Wow, Ethan. I'm actually very, very curious to find out about your insights towards the market as well, because you have been looking into the market, the interest rate, right. Following the trend recently, there's also FOMC meeting that you have the latest updates as well. So will you be able to share with our audience here so that they can all learn from you? All right. So one of the few key takeaways that we want to actually look at, right, all right, is that when you're looking at the FOMC, they recently have decided to pause the rate hikes at 5.33 percent. And what they want to do, right, is they eventually want to lower it, but then they want to lower it before inflation reaches 2 percent. When the inflation reaches 2 percent, it will have been an over-correction. So what they want to do is eventually lower this. And then what they say is that if the inflation stays high, what they are going to do, they are going to continue to raise rates. But at this point of time, the good grace of them, they actually come up with projections. And this is one thing I rely on a lot. Okay. Because in my job, what I do is I predict where Singapore interest rates are going to go to recommend my clients, what are the best rates. But over here, we'll be able to take a very big white picture snapshot on the whole economy. This way, we understand roughly where the economy is going to be headed. So what I would like to do... Just want to add on, so whatever things that Ethan has been sharing and the interest rate that he has been predicting the trend, it's not like he plucked the numbers from thin air. He really looked at the data that is actually provided by the US government. The fact, what is the trend going to be like? Of course, there will be some changes to the government's policies or the rates some occasionally. But the direction is actually pretty accurate because the government cannot change the direction too much overnight as well. So based on the current level right now, the US government is actually going to lower the rates. So you can see, 2020-23 is 5.4 and next year, it will become 4.6 and subsequently 3.6 and followed by 2.9. So what Ethan is saying that the government's... From the US government's point of view, their ideal inflation rate, it's about 2%. But right now, what is our inflation rate right now for the US right now? Now inflation rate is at 3.2%. It's 3.1%, sorry. 3.1%. Yeah, they are actually... You are starting to see that inflation is starting to come down which is why they say that they don't want to overcorrect. They are slowing down. In fact, at this point in time, they're not moving. They're actually called for a prediction for 5.6 which means actually this round they were supposed to raise. But the thing is, they feel they look at the economy and then they say, hey, actually it might be time to put the gas off the paddle a little bit, not to push it into too restrictive territory so that maybe we'll be able to have a soft lending. So guys, do you think this is a good news to investors? What do you think? When the interest rate starts to drop, do you think it's a good news for investors? Yes or no, guys? If you think so, type yes. If you don't think so, type no. If you don't know, type don't know. Okay? Hi Peter, good to see you. Thanks for your support all the time. From what I know, it's 4%. Okay? Kelvin said 4%. All right? So Charmin said, yes, it's a good news. Why? For those who are still not sure, why is it so? Because when the interest rate becomes lower, then borrowing becomes easier. And when borrowing becomes easier, there's more liquidity and that's how companies also have more liberty to use the funds. They can borrow from the banks and then they can reinvest in the company expansion whatsoever. Or they can even maybe do stocks buy back and all this. So with higher liquidity, it's generally beneficial to the market. So it's definitely a good sign that the interest rate is starting to temper down. Yeah. Yeah, now you can see over here. Now it's coming down from the previous highs to its current levels right now. It's now at about 3.1%. And then this is how it actually came down towards these levels. So that is where interest rates are headed. And then one thing over here, we also can see where GDP is going and how unemployment rate is going to be. Where? Because over here, you see, give me a second. I see whether I can draw. Oh yeah, over here. So if you look over here at these pictures over here, you'll be able to see the unemployment rate in the future is looking to go at 4.1%, 4.1%, 4.1%. You might think that this is high, but actually if you were to look at US unemployment, we are giving you a moment and you pull that up. So we go unemployment rate in the past, right? Yeah. Yeah, the US unemployment rate at this point of time is one of the lower unemployment rates throughout history actually. If you look at the 25-year chart, we are way below 4%. We are 3.9% and then 3.8%. And even if it goes up to 4.1%, I think that this is actually quite healthy. Yeah, still very reasonable. Quite reasonable. So for next year, I do not foresee any form of big pressures, but you are the expert. What are your views, Chloe? Well, later I shall share about it. Later we'll go through. But I'm also very curious, right? So from your point of view, because the unemployment rate is considered still relatively healthy and then we've more liquidated into the market, you generally think that it will be a bullish year for 2020. I think soft landing. I think it wouldn't be too difficult. And you look at their GDP projections, they're actually looking next year to be 1.4%, 1.8% and 1.9%. They do not foresee any big contractions. This is growth, right? The GDP is growing, projecting to bring up 4% next year. Correct. So in this case, the US government is not foresee itself entering recession. Can I say that? Yeah. Wow, guys, is this good news for you guys? If this is good news, can you help to like this post and share it to your friends as well so that more people can really be encouraged by this good news and start their investment journey? Okay, so this is what Eton has to share so far. How many of you find that this table is very useful? If you think it's useful, I'll type you in the chat. Okay? So some of you are thinking about who is, where is Eton from? Vanessa is asking. So Eton is from unbeatable mortgage. So what he does is he really, really go and firstly study all this data to talk about, hey, what is the interest rate trend is going to be like? And then because for US interest rate impacts directly to our Singapore's interest rate as well. So by him serving, knowing all this information, he'll better serve his clients because when you need to refinance your property, or maybe when you need to take out some additional home loans whatsoever, right? So this is where the interest rate will impact you directly because you are literally having to, your property is tied to the interest rate. So hopefully that clarifies. It's very useful. Thank you so much Kevin for all your excitement support. Okay? No problem. Yeah. So Eton, you have anything else you want to address on this stock market information? For the stock market, I think I leave it to you. What I'm here to do is talk to you a bit more about the economy. Then I am here to help you widen your lens to be able to have the fuller picture to make a more informed decision. That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay. Now then let me overtake your share screen for a while because I have some additional insights into the market. So just now, a lot of you guys find the information very useful. I also find it very useful. So right now, let's really go and further look into the stock market. Now guys, so this is the S&P 500 chart. And just like I shared with you guys just now, it has actually already broken out. The previous high right now is at the highest level. So guys, can you tell me when the stock price reaches the highest level, what is more likely to happen? What is more likely to happen? More likely to go up even more or start to come down a little bit. Guys, what do you think? D, D sense or down? U sense or up? That means continue going up or likely to come down a little bit. What do you think? All right. So based on technical analysis, for those who have studied our class before, we talked about the stock price also behave in a certain pattern because we generally can plot out the charts and everything. So yeah, exactly. So it's likely to come down a little bit. So that's why I would say that right now at least structure definitely is not the best time to pour a lot of cash into the stock market, right? Because you want to make sure you are doing it safely. You want to make sure you enter the market when there is more room for safety where that means when the market comes down, actually that is the best time to buy, right? And that's why for last year, right, when the when the stock market was really bearish, right? That actually that was the best time for me myself. I also added quite a lot of positions during last year as well, right? So now the thing is even though despite that knowing that this might not be the best time to invest in the market, however, something very interesting is also happening at the same time. Do you remember just now there is a news article saying that Warren Buffett's cash holding is has balloon, right? 257 billion at the all-time high level, right? However, the same piece of information, another news organization from Bloomberg is saying that well, this isn't an ominous sign, okay? What does that mean is actually even though the cash pile is a lot, it's not really a bad sign, right? Because Berkshire's records cash and equivalent, which means cash in general, right? Relative to its portfolio are in line with its 20-year average. So what does that mean is even at this level it's quite an average benchmark that Berkshire has been holding the percentage around like that or most of the time, right? So this is not a bad news because it's nothing too unusual, right? So this is evidence number one to show you that hey, why are currently the market doesn't seem to be very bad to invest in, okay? Can everybody type one in the chat? So I want to showcase to you another different side of coins so that you can decide for yourself which one would you want to go for, right? So this is the opposite, right? Now, number two, right? Based on historical data, right? Ethan showed you guys the data already I also love to show you guys data, right? So now, based on Wufa, right? S&P 500 has been definitely historically, right? What happened is after bear market the market will start to recover, isn't it? So you can see that all the way dating back to 1949 all the way until 2020, right? So these data have like 60 or 80 years of historical data inside. So guys, can you see from which year onward will give you the highest return, right? After bear market bottom, which year will give you the highest return? Year one, year two, or year three? One, two, or three? It's pretty obvious, right? If you look at year one, right? Wow, if you buy, that means from the first year market bottom when you invest, which is actually last year in this case, right? Your average return just by buying and holding, right? And don't do anything, right? It's about 40%, not too bad, isn't it? Actually, in fact, very good, right? However, if you waited a little bit and you waited until year two, which actually this year, 2020 is the first year, remember the first? The market bottom, 2022 about October period, right? And then if you stay invested since 2022 October until now, actually your portfolio has gone up at least 20 plus percent already, right? And next year, which is the year two, guys, can you also see that historically year two, regardless how many decades of a period had passed, year two is still positive, okay? And it's still about 30% up, right? And then it's only year three onwards it's slightly more uncertain. Sometimes it's negative, sometimes it's positive. So guys, so next year is year two. But what do you think, based on this historical pattern, right? More likely to go up or go down, guys? What do you think? You or D? You or D? Up means it's going to go up even more. That means as an investor, you will, if you stay invested, you will make more money. On the other hand, you think that's going down, that means you're going to lose money investing type D. What do you think, right? So this is data, data, also Vanessa still, she is very conservative, right? She think that right now it's all time high so cannot invest, right? But most of you guys can see that it's going up, right? Because based on so many years of data, the second year onwards are still a good year to invest, right? Now let's take a look at the third evidence after evidence, right? So now this is a very interesting chart that was actually predicting the stock market. And this chart was developed, was first developed in 1924, guys? That is super, super crazy, right? So at that time, more than 100 years old already, right? So what is something very interesting about this chart is how do you read it? Okay guys, so there's ABC point, right? I want you to focus on the C point first. Okay, which is at the lowest, right? At the C point, this is where the years of hard time, right? That means low prices, the stock market has kind of like really, really been beaten down a lot. And as a result, because it's so beaten down, it's the best time to buy, right? Because the price I've checked, right? So guys, if you still remember, for example, 2000 and where are the some of the years are? So, okay, if you still remember, 2000 and 1997, right? Guys, remember 1997 was a crisis, right? So as a result, okay, hold on. Where was the data that I wanted to talk about? Okay, okay, okay, I understand. Okay, so guys, remember, 2000 and let's say you look at chart 2005, right? 2005, and if you bought during 2005, and then you held on until 2007, which is from C point, you go to B point, right? Remember C and B, right? Now we look at B. The B point, 2007, anybody remember what happened in around 2007? Around 2007, what happened, right? If you still remember 2008, it's a major year that everybody should know, right? 2008 is our major financial crisis, right? Lehman Brothers collapsed during that year. So that means if you sell it in 2007, which is actually B is the best time to sell, the B is the best time to sell, so you literally avoided the crash of 2008, and then you have the bull run from 2005 all the way into 2007, the market actually gone up quite a fair bit, right? And now if you look at the next one, which is like 2023, now, 2023 is this year, 2023 to this chart is actually the best time to buy. How many of you agree, if you bought since the beginning of 2023, you will have made money, yes or no, right? Yes, right? So now the accuracy of this chart is quite amazing. So the next thing is, then when is the good time to sell according to this, right? So you hold on from 2023 all the way until 2026, right? So what does that mean is, right? If it's 2026, our next year is 2024, do you still have room to make more profits? Yes, right? Actually you still have about two, three years ahead to make profits. So once again, this is evidence number three. Okay, how many of you can understand this? You can understand this type three in the chat, right? So now most importantly, right? Let's look at historical takeout in the long, long run, right? Where does the market go in the long run? It's very obvious it's going up, right? Yeah, 100% going up, right? In the long run, right? So that's why if you are thinking about, if you really cannot predict what's going to happen next year, 2024, right? Then don't need to predict about it, right? You just need to go for the long term, buy into great businesses, which later on I will also be sharing with you what are some of the good businesses that I'm personally looking at? How many of you are excited to see what are some of the stocks that I'm personally looking at for 2024? If you're excited, type E in the chat, okay? So that's why, regardless, there are definitely opportunities, right? So don't need to time the market and make sure you stay invested in good company, right? Now, of course, we also know that when it comes to investing, it's not just about stocks all the time, right? How many of you agree that it's also important to diversify your portfolio, right? So especially for those who actually have your property already, right? Or maybe you are planning to invest in property. It's also very crucial to look at the potential impact of the interest rate, right? Because the interest rate is going to change, right? How would that impact to the property market? Now, as a property owner, recently, I don't feel that, wow, there is a lot of things happening, right? Especially the rental market actually become pretty bad. How many of you actually have your own property for rental? That means it's for investment purposes. If you have it, you can type I in the chat, okay? How many of you have an investment property? So I have an investment property and I managed to rent it out in October this year. So consider quite lucky because why? If I did not manage to get it rented out in two months ago, right now, the market is even slower, right? In fact, my property agent, right, he said right now, the market is actually quite slow, right? Especially for those ones, right? I bought one beta, right? So I managed to rent out my one beta at $3,800 per month. But right now, the property market has become so slow that it reduced one beta, the same one beta, dropped to 2.9, right? Literally, that is like 900, close to $1,000 difference, right? On the street, guys, if you are a property investor, what this $1,000 means a lot to you because it will directly impact your rate of return, right? Your return on investment for your property as well, right? I'm 24 some more. Yeah, correct. But if them also have some insights, right? Why during year end like that, it's actually quite bad for that though? You know, like, because this period of time, right, this is when everybody is going holiday. This is the period of time that everybody go for the December holiday, celebrate their Christmas, prepare for Chinese New Year. Nobody wants to rent. And that's why at this point of time, it's a supply demand thing. And I think at this point of time, the demand is slow. That's why the prices drop. Yeah, and especially for Momentum Park, there are a lot of projects that are also recently TOP. Then suddenly, the market fluttered with lots and lots of units available for rent, right? So that's why as a property owner, right? Maybe some of you also face the same pain like I do, right? Luckily, I managed to rent out my property already. So if you are still struggling, then make sure, I think one of the way to really be smart about it is, how do you actually refinance your property? Because right now, it's actually quite a tough situation, especially for a property market, right? Actually, the stock market actually looks very rosy, right? Actually, there's still room for growth ahead, right? However, if you already bought your property, but if you are not refinancing, that means your interest rate still remains to be the high level. But guys, remember what is the trend for the interest rate ahead? It's actually coming down, right? So if you never refinanced, you are still paying at a high interest rate, and that will literally make every month, your monthly mortgage to become so much, right? Which doesn't make sense. So when you refinance, you're able to price it better. And this is where, right? Ethan, that is his expertise. So Ethan, are you able to share with us what are some of the things that our audience can start doing next year so that you have more savings? And at the same time, reduce the bleat if they were to having this investment property, or even their home mortgage also can be refinanced? Yeah. Correct. So I think one of the more important things that people need to do, right, is to pick the correct rates. Because if you pick the wrong rates, then you'll be paying slightly more than what you need to. And when you're picking the right rates, right, you number one, you need to understand where Sora is going to go because we are always given a choice between fixed rates or floating rates, all right? So Singapore is a very small and open economy and I believe over here, right, based on the Singapore exchange trade policy because we are that dependent on trade. About 300% of our GDP is on trade. So that's why I believe over here when you look at it, right, we look at the Singapore interest rate policy. This is within MAS's doctrine. You'll be able to see in the fourth chart, we actually say that interest rates in Singapore are largely determined by foreign interest rates and domestic interest rates have been typically in below US interest rates, which is why I did an 18-year study from July 2005 until today. Wow, 18 years. 18 years, 4,000 overlines of data. Wow. So when we are doing this, right, we'll be able to see that there is actually a 93.85% correlation. So that's why I study the US economy that well because in order to determine where interest rates are going to go in Singapore, we want to be able to know where interest rates are going to go in US. So this is where this chart becomes important once again because we are able to see where the federal funds rate are expected to go and from there we'll be able to see and all of them, right, what they do, right, to be able to guess where the federal funds rate are going to go. They all sit down in a two-day conference where they sit down and then brainstorm and then look at the data and then every one of these important members, right, will have one number to put inside this thing called a dot plot. And from there, they will then tell you, okay, where is the interest rate estimated to go? Jerome Power cannot predict the interest rate, neither can I. I just want to put it out there, all right. But because of this, we have a very good forward guidance after understanding all the economics of everything, we will be able to see roughly where interest rates are likely to go. And based on this, right, we can now then plot the future. This is in squiggly lines because this is the plan and plans do change. So what happens, right, is I actually look at all these numbers, I correlate it back to Singapore's numbers and then I plot the graph for you guys so that you will be able to see roughly where SORA rates are likely to go. Okay. So from here- So based on the property, we, okay, maybe you can elaborate a little bit what is SORA as well as what is EFFR. Okay. SORA is the Singapore overnight rate average. This is the rate that we follow in Singapore. If the banks were to borrow money, they actually borrow from MAS and it is the SF rate, which is quite similar to SORA rates. But SORA is the reference rate that most of the floating rates are going to use. And because of that, we have to choose between SORA and effective federal funds rate. So usually they come with a spread and this spread can be 0.5% or more. So what we do is that we then calculate based on these numbers to roughly estimate whether if next year we see the estimated SORA rate at 3.25, we add a 0.5 that is coming to 3.75. And if you look at two years later, you are looking at 2.59 and if you add 0.... Or they don't need to use calculator once again. Okay, I'm looking at 2.95 plus. So if that's the case, then maybe some of our audience may be wondering, hey then if I have a property, then since I know that the rates more likely to be dropping, then should I be refinancing later than now? Then now you will pay the day after rates. The day after rates is where you all are going to hunt down. The day after rates is like 3 months SORA plus 1% which is very very expensive. So I definitely recommend for you guys to consider refinancing alone. Yeah, because I still remember before I refinanced my property, my monthly mortgage plus all the additional expenses I need to pay is like $4,000 per month. I'm like, wow, that is so expensive. I literally actually didn't expect that when I first buy this property, I thought that oh, everything should be able to cover by all the rents and everything. But if I chose not to refinance, even with my $3,800 monthly rental, it's not even enough to cover my mortgage. It's become a casual negative investment. So luckily when I talk to Ethan, wow, I think Ethan really need to thank you. Because when I talk to you, I realize that there are ways for me to refinance my property. And because of that, my monthly mortgage originally was close to $4,000. Wow, right now dropped to $3.2. I literally have additional $800 cash flow. And because of that, even with some additional expenses like maintenance fees, whatsoever, property tax, my $3.8 is actually more than enough to cover all this. So right now, I have $100 plus to close to $200 of cash flow every single month. How many of you think that it's pretty good to have additional passive income or owning a property at the same time? Yeah, you have a tenant taking care of your house and still at the same time, literally buying your house with you. That is the beauty when you really know how to play the mortgage game. Because at first I didn't know until Ethan shared with me this, I was like, huh, I didn't know that. I thought I need to be negative. So I'm really grateful. So that's why I invite him to come and share with you good deals. I always tell people, paying for your mortgage is the most boring way to become a millionaire. Because at the end of the day, once you finish paying your mortgage, you own the property and probably it's going to be above $1 million already. So what we can do to optimize the savings is then to choose the right type of rates. For example, today in the market, they have 3% for 2 years. Then you look at this and then you add the 0.5 to the 2.59. You realize that it is still higher than 3%. So at the end of the day, what you might want to do is then consider taking the 3 years fixed for 2%. The 2 years fixed for 3%. And then this way you save money because at the end of the day, you want to pick the cheapest rates possible. And to add on to what you said just now, let me go and choose the right slide once I can. And the thing is, if you were to want to look at refining, you were to want to look at what you can do in order to save in terms of your monthly installment, what you can do is number 1, you can get the better rate. Number 2, when you're refinancing, you can actually look at an extension of your loan tenure. Yeah, this is what you can help me do also. So when you're extending your loan tenure, what happens is your monthly installment drops. But you think about it, this John and Sally obviously fake names. But this is a real case scenario where both people are trying to own a house in Singapore. And when you are looking at both of them, they are working adults. And instead of looking at a $5,000 per month bleed, they are actually only getting about $3,000 plus. And if you account for the CPF, each one of them we throw in $1,000, their monthly cash flow is not that bad. And that's what I do to help people save money and in order to, and also inflation happens. If you are borrowing money, you're not paying for inflation, you're paying for interest rates. Correct, right Chloe? That's true, that's true, that's true. Yeah, so if you borrow lower than inflation in Singapore, you win automatically. So that's why I like doing what I do. Yeah, you know, Ethan is very funny. Like when he looked at all these charts, right, he would say, Oh my God, the chart looks so sexy. Most of the time I'll be like, Okay, I thought like looking at your wife, your wife so sexy, I understand. But he looked at the chart and he said, Wow, the chart looks so sexy. I'm like, Okay, that's why you have a lot of passion. That's why you are doing such a good job in helping me and all your clients. And yeah, thank you so much. No problem, no problem. So I believe we got a question from Calvin. How does credit report affect loan taking? Okay, so the credit report, right? I actually, I believe that the credit report is one that is generated by the credit bureau Singapore. And the thing is, if you're delinquent with your payments, right, you would have a negative, like it will no longer be AA, it will be pushed to like BBCC and whatsoever. And because of that, sometimes the approval may not go through. So what you might want to do is to be able to optimize that before going and take a loan. Yeah, so yeah, I think like what Eden is showing right now, the chart is a very good illustration of how my eye personally went through as well. Because when I extend my loan tenure, so then I can actually break down my mortgage even to even smaller chunk. And then on top of that, right, because I refinanced, I managed to refinance lower than the current SORA rate. So my monthly outlay even become even smaller. So that's how overall net net, I become casual positive instead of negative. Yeah, so this is what you can do as well. What is the maximum age to take loan? The maximum age to take loan, right, when you're buying a new property is 65 minus each. When you are refinancing, you can do 75 minus each. That's why over here, you can see a 10 year increase. And sometimes you're not going to wait 33 years before you sell off your property. Yep, definitely not. But if you are going to stay in your property long-term, why not? That's true, that's true. And if you want to, if you are slightly older, and you want a slightly longer loan tenure, what you can do is take a 55% loan. If you use a 55% loan, straight away you can use 75 minus each. But when you're a little bit older, you would have higher CPF and cash anyways really. So that helps you with buying your property. And I would much rather pay for mortgage rather than rent. What do you think? I agree, I agree. Because when you're paying for mortgage, I mean the house is too close, but I have a better solution. I'd rather much pay for mortgage by the same time I have rental income coming in to cover my mortgage. One best, the other best. Yeah, so yeah, okay. If you have any questions, feel free to leave it, okay. Because right now I'm also going to the next one, which is right now, since we are talking about home mortgage and everything, which is, how many of you agree, it's actually quite interesting. And there are actually additional ways to save your money. So now the thing is, since PMD already said that 2024 remains uncertain, even though with the US data, things still looks generally healthy. The unemployment rate is still low and everything. But we always want to make sure we prepare for the worst, right? So that's why what to do during recession time. So this is what my personal take, this is what I will do as well, right? So from my sharing, hopefully you can also take some additional insights and maybe apply it to yourself. Now, the first thing that I will do is I will definitely stay invested, right? Because I don't want to time the market. I don't know when is the market going to come down, right? Maybe it will continue to go up. Who knows, right? Because based on so many evidence that I presented you so far, they are always both sides of the coin. So anything can happen 50-50. So why not I just continue to stay invested, right? But of course, very importantly, as we continue to stay invested, you also want to make sure you continue to add into good company at a good price, right? You don't want to chase after stocks that have gone up so much, right? And the valuation just seemed observed, right? That means like, wow, the P ratio is over through the roof. All these are subjecting your portfolio, right? Your own money in danger, right? Then why do that? Why not do something safer? Do something that, you know, it's good company at the same time, the valuation is cheap, right? So this is what I personally will be looking at. In fact, I have been adding these positions for the past, I think half a year ago, right? Because for consumer staples, it's regardless whether you have a recession or not, people will go and purchase, right? How many of you agree that whether there's a recession or not, you still need to buy grocery, right? If you agree, can you type A in the chat, right? And that's why all these like, for example, like Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, and all this, right? If you like it, whether got recession or not, you will still go and buy it because they are not like very expensive product, right? It become like your daily enjoyment, daily joy. Well, imagine like, you are feeling so much like your wallet is being squeezed so much already. You don't want to sacrifice that little joy in life, right? And that's why all these kind companies will continue to be able to serve its customer, right? At a very, very affordable price. And that's why they are very, very likely not be so impacted by the upcoming recession, right? So if you are not very sure exactly what are the individual companies to buy, right? For example, whether it's Costco, is it Walmart and all this, right? Then you can buy ETF as well, right? And if you look at this ETF called XLP, right? XLP, can everybody type XLP in the chat? Okay, I need you to remember the ticker symbol of this ETF. So when you buy this ETF, literally you have all these companies in your portfolio at once, right? So you have your PepsiCo, your Costco, your PNG, your Target, Colgate, everything is inside. In fact, you have 38, these kind of great businesses in your portfolio. And the P ratio right now is 22, right? Versus S and P 500 is 33, yeah, guys. Who can you tell me which one is cheaper? 22 or 33? Obviously it's 22, right? So that's why I think right now at this current price, actually XLP is considered very fair, right? Because if you look at the stock price, while so many stocks has gone up so much, right? But if you look at XLP, which I'm going to show you over here, right? Right? XLP in general, right? It's actually coming down, right? Because when all the tech stocks continue to boom, right? I mean, there's also definitely, there's a sector rotation as well. So recently it's XLP, right? Which is the consumer staples start to come down, right? So you can see not just XLP, be it it's PNG itself, right? It's also coming down from its peak and then Walmart also coming down, right? Can you see that? If previously it was here, right now it's here, right? So if you ask me, hey, are there any opportunities even in these relatively extensive markets? There is, right? You just need to know where to look at, right? And consumer staple stocks, right? Very safe companies are definitely one of the good opportunity right now, right? How many of you find that this is pretty helpful? Okay, if this is helpful, can you type? Yes, in the chat, all right? So now one more thing I want to share apart from consumer staples that I just shared with you, right? Another things that you can consider looking at, right? Wow, time to buy. Yeah, prefer ETF to equity, right? Because when you don't have time, especially when you don't have time to monitor individual stocks, ETF is the best. It's like no-brainer, lazy strategy, right? Lazy, but at the same time still make you money, right? Because this ETF overall for the past 10 years in general about 8% annualized return. Still not bad, right? Still not bad, right? So now the next thing is, right? You can also take a look at Warren Buffett's company, right? Berkshire Hathaway, because when you buy into Berkshire, literally you are owning all these great businesses that Warren Buffett, he himself, and his team selected, right? Including your Apple, your Bank of America, your A-Max, right? All these great companies are also in his portfolio. So because today, right, we are not going through individually he stocks his portfolio and why is this a great business? You can actually go to my YouTube channel over here, over here, over here, right? There's this video that I did about six months ago, why Berkshire Hathaway, right? Why buy Berkshire, right? Berkshire is part of my portfolio and this is definitely a stock that I will continue to add into my portfolio, right? When the stock price reaches a decent level. So this is something that you can consider looking at as well because literally it's also like an ETF, right? So now, no wonder he's smiling. Yeah, Francis said this kind of stocks, right? It's like buy and forget, right? Because it's like an ETF, very safe, right? And last but not least is our... S&P 500, okay? Because we have already shown you guys, right? Regardless, how many economic crisis has been chewed up? Wow, in the long run, where does the market go? It goes up, right? So if you don't need this kind of cash immediately, right? That means you are not investing your emergency fund, then you just buy and hold and buy into S&P 500. It can also work out very, very well for you in a long period of time, right? So of course, if you know how to do options, then you can accelerate your return even more, right? So Yelp was looking at for stocks to invest in view of potential recession, very good. So Vanessa, so whatever things I share with you, right? It's something that I personally do as well. You can use that as a reference, right? Once again, it's not stock recommendation, right? However, it's good that you educate yourself, explore different possibilities. And that's why I purposely also want to invite Ethan up so that he can also share with you some additional insights as well, right? So now this is about investing in the stock market. So on the personal level, right? What can we do as we can also find ways to have more savings, right? So think about what are the... If recession is indeed coming, right? Maybe your salary will not be increased. Maybe it will even get cut potentially, right? So if that happened, where can you find savings, right? And I think it's also very important that while we be mindful about daily expenses, however, there's only so much that you can cut, right? You can't possibly skip meals, right? So that's why think about effective ways to really optimise your savings. Sometimes one tweak, right? The savings can be a few thousand dollars, right? Sometimes one tweak can be at least one dollar. And usually that one tweak is usually come from your home, right? Because your home is a very, very big purchase, right? And then the moment that few hundred thousand dollars of your home mortgage just have one small change, right? In terms of your mortgage rate, right? Wow, that small percentage change literally translates to a few thousand dollars of savings every single month. I'm not even talking about years. I'm just talking about every single month. So that's why for those who are very, very keen to explore, how can you actually refinance your house? In fact, right? I'm very curious hearing from Ethan. How often are people refinanced at home? All right. So to be able to answer your question a little bit better, you pull up my slide for me. So what I do right is in unbeatable mortgage, right? What we do is we work with all the banks, the top 10 banks you can see in Singapore. And we are the one stop shop for everybody. That's why whenever you are here, right, you are able to have access to all the banks and get the cheapest rate possible. Paying low interest is one of the easiest way to save money. And like what you say, saving won't make you rich. But when you've got extra money and listen to Chloe, then after that, when you invest, maybe that might give you a better shot. It's always a more two-prong strategy rather than one. Kelvin, you hate the banks. Don't worry. You talk to me, Ken, already. Don't need to talk to the banks. Yeah, the banks don't give you the best rates. But then true mortgage brokers like Ethan, they are able to get you much better rates than you go to your bank and talk to themselves. They won't give you one. Yeah, and sometimes when you go to the bank yourself, then after that, the banker might not give you the best rates because they are getting more commission to give you the other rates. But on my side, I'm incentivized to give you the best rate. Otherwise, my company name not good. So anyways, over here, the typical loan structure is like this. So the typical loan structure tells you the first year and the second year are actually decent. They will tell you the first year and the second year is good, but then the third year onwards, you see the debt after rates, the three months or plus one, even if you go for floating rates, not very good. So at this point in time, this is when you want to consider to reprice or refinance. So this is a timeline for you if you are looking at your resale property. So you buy your property, after you buy, then after that, after you buy, then you refinance and then to extend your loan tenure, then reprice because you are with the bank and then refinance again and then do this cycle again and again and again until you exit. Yeah. Usually it's about two years. Usually the ideal time is two years then you should refinance because if you show the chart previously, the third year onwards are there after, right? The rates become bad again. Can you see that, right? It's that original low fixed rate right now become going back to SORA and SORA is floating. And if the interest rate continue to increase, then your SORA becomes even more, more jalaat, right? Then you still need to plus the additional 1% some of what even more, right? Yeah. So at this point in time, you prefer the 3.1% fixed or would you want to pay 4.75? So you will pick the cheaper one. And the typical structure is to refinance one time then reprice because when you're refinancing, the bank actually pays for all your legal and valuation fee in most of it anyways. But they ask you to stay with them for three years. So refinance, reprice, and then we'll just do the best thing for you based on where you are at this stage. Then when you're planning for the exit, also look at what are your clauses? How are you looking at exiting and unbeatable? We are here with you throughout the entire process. So yeah, just Chloe, if you were to bring up the form, this is where you can actually reach out to me. You'll be able to get me and my team will be able to help you with your mortgage needs and to help you save as much money as possible and give you the most in-depth advice you would ever get for mortgage at this point in time. Yeah. So I personally went through the whole entire consultation, the whole process with Ethan and I think really because of him, I'm able to have a very relaxed property life right now. Imagine last time when I was staying in Normandown, even though I mean I have my portfolio and everything, but I really don't like the idea of, wow, every single month I fork out $4,000 just to pay the mortgage. I felt like, wow, that is really bleeding for me. And then that's why I was kind of like really want to have my tenant coming in as soon as possible. And luckily, I've managed to find my tenant, but at the same time because I managed to refinance my tenant's rental just nice. In fact, more than enough to cover my monthly mortgage. So right now, I'm very relaxed because I get additional cash flow while getting my house picked by my tenant. Okay, hopefully my tenant not watching this. But hopefully very well. Okay, I think my house is very nice. Nice, the view very nice, full view of the pool, everything. Yeah, exactly. So Francis have this question. Can we get term loan to use to buy one more property? Okay, so the thing is if you have your term loan to buy one more property, you can. But there is the total debt, there is the additional buyer's time duty. You come and sign up and then we can chit chat. I'll tell you a little bit more about what else we can do so that we don't have to necessarily pay the additional buyer's time duty. And I see Nicholas actually has a question. Yeah, Nicholas is very curious. So how you make, how much you make? So what I do is I am making the referral from you guys to go to the bank and then the bank pays me a small standard fee and because of that my service is entirely free for you guys. Yeah, guys, how many of you love that? Then you get free service, like really top notch service and then you get savings. At the same time, you get to fight against the banks. Just kidding. No, I mean like he can help us to get better deals from the banks for you. If not the banks also will not give you. Yeah, so that's why I love working with him because he really served us very well. He also served his clients very well. Recently, I think one of my students also because of you managed to reduce the mortgage by quite a lot. Yeah, I'm happy too, I'm happy too. And got different rates. I mean at the end of the day, there is a standard two-year fix but at this point in time, there is the one-year fix which might be one of the smarter rates to get. From there, for this, then we'll be able to get the best rate in the market to be able to save you guys the most amount then maybe to extend your loan tenure. If you're interested, you can even take out money from your property. Okay, I overprepare for this. Can I share your slides right now? Yeah, give me a moment. Can you give me some money from my property? Yes, so the thing is right, one of the biggest killer of profits is transaction fees, yes? Yeah. Especially when you're looking at when you're looking at property transactions, they are very expensive. Number one, you have to pay the agent fee. Number two, you have to pay the stamp duties and what you can do, right? If you bring up my slide, right, you'll be able to do this thing called a gear up which means you increase the loan size without selling your property and then you are borrowing at mortgage rates. Why mortgage rates are so sexy? Yeah, why they are one of the lowest rates in the entire market, right? It's because the default rate is very low. There are no other loans that allow you to use your CPF to pay. And on top of that, it is secured by your property so because of that, you will be able to borrow at very cheap rates, almost at inflation, sometimes even lower. And over time, the price of your property increase and then what happens is your loan also decrease because every single month you're paying for your mortgage, you're paying for two things, interest and principal. Then eventually, your cash component will be big enough that if you want to continue staying in your property and you want to take out the money to be able to make more money, because you know Chinese people, we say chian, chuan, chian, right? Then this is when you can consider taking out your profits without selling your property. Wow, when can I reach until this stage? This one for you, typically around 5 to 10 years, depending on how fast the property increase. Okay, interesting. So during these 5 to 10 years, while you're holding onto your property, you don't need to sell it, you still make money without selling your property. And then there's of course refinancing along the way then to continue to lower the mortgage. Correct, then this whole thing goes around and around. And then you save money. When you lower your interest rates, your ROI is higher. Yeah, wow. It's called infinite cash cow. It's called infinite cash cow. Wow, I love that you talk about this. Actually, there is a math that I did before. If you were to give up, you take the money and then pay for the mortgage. But that one, a bit too nerdy. We'll go into it next time. Maybe another day or maybe for those who are keen to find out, maybe is it the right time for you to do this infinite cash cow strategy? Go for this contradiction first with Ethan so that he can assess your situation because how many of you can see that he has a lot of knowledge? And all this knowledge need to be personalized because different people have different situations. There's no one size fit all. So he will also go through which is the better plan for you. Should it be one year fixed? Should it be two year fixed? So based on your situation, he will give you better advice so that he can really help you to save more at the same time, have a more relaxing property journey. This is exactly what's important for me as well. So yeah, any other last thing that you want to highlight before we wrap up? Because I think people are very interested right now. I think a lot of them have already applied for the consultation. Excellent. Thank you all. I look forward to hearing from you guys. But just to sing a little bit of praise about Singapore property because we're talking about property and holding it anyways. I think Singapore property is one of the more defensive investments that you can actually look at. Number one, Singapore is a very small country and 80% of the land is government owned. So the thing is, when you have the property, you are able to rent it out and then because of the valuation increase, the rent will increase over time and then therefore the valuation also. And Singapore is the home of the best airport in Singapore. They keep talking about this. And the second busiest port in the world, second only to Shanghai and voted 15 years for the most favorable business environment. So with that being said, I think in uncertainty, if you're not too sure on where to go, I think Singapore property is a pretty good bet. What do you think, Chloe? I think so too. I mean, like this morning, I was just talking to another property agent. He said like in general, I mean Singapore property itself, you're as an investor, right, you are looking at about 4% to 6%, right, the kind of return per year. And of course, it doesn't sound like a lot compared to stocks and options for sure. However, when you talk about the quantum, because it's such a safe asset, right? And that's why you are willing to put a lot of money. In fact, property investment is one of the largest investment to most of the people out here, right? Like you easily, a few hundred thousand dollars or even a few million dollars, just buy a property. And if you just increase your RIR 4% to 6% every single year, over a small period of time, actually the quantum actually become very big. So that's how property investment to me is definitely one of the good alternative to diversify into, especially when you have a need to buy a home, right? Either your family become bigger, right, you need to get married, or you just want to diversify your asset as your portfolio goes bigger. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So people does have their own YouTube channel. You just need to search for unbeatable mortgage and then you can learn more from Ethan as well. So at the same time, the best way to learn from him is actually through this consultation. So he can give you. Oh, right. Yeah. So in a minute, yes, you were saying? Oh, and if you guys want to be able to find out how much you can buy for the property, you can also look for me. I'll be able to tell you how much you can borrow, what's your budget going to be like in terms of your down payment and your monthly installment. Then we can just look at all the numbers together then we'll see how it goes. Yeah. This guy love calculation. When it comes to this, he thinks it's very sexy. So if you have a hard time calculating your home mortgage, how much you can borrow whatsoever, go to Ethan. He will be able to help you. And his team are very, very good. So apart from Ethan, while his team are all super experts. So go to them and yeah. So just want to quickly share how does this work? As once you go into the form, right, you can record your email address here then answer your name, your phone and then do let us know, right? Basically actually let Ethan know because I won't be able to help you. I'm not expert in this. What are you doing? Are you applying a home? Are you reprising? Are you loan finance? Or if you're unsure, you just type others, unsure. Okay, they are also able to help you. Then you click next and after you submit the form, usually within the next few days, Ethan and the team will be able to contacting you. Yeah, will be contacting you. Yeah. Correct, get in touch even if it's not yet time to refinance because this way then we'll be able to tell you and hunt ahead for the best interest rate possible. Then we'll be able to play with the cycles and everything. Yeah, exactly, right? Especially with Chinese New Year coming, wow, if you have both savings from your mortgage, then when you give out your unbowl, actually it's from your savings. Then you don't feel so paid because Ethan was saying every year at Chinese New Year now he married already. So I should meet you during CMY then you will give me, right? Can, can, can. Recently I saw you at the Tanjong Parker. You give me a call, I will have calmed down already man. The Tanjong Parker one that you did. Oh, for me talking to strangers ah. Yeah, they like call me. Thank you, thank you. Okay, next time I know who to call. All right, thank you so much everyone for coming down all the way to listen to our sharing. How many of you find that this sharing is very useful? If you think it's useful, type yes in the chat. So that's why next time, okay, when we have some additional market updates, for example, the latest FOMC meeting updates whatsoever, we can also invite Ethan back again to share with us some additional insights, the interest prediction, everything so that we have better clarity when it comes to what to do with the stock as well as the property portfolio as well. Wow, thank you so much. Francis, he also wants to meet you during CMY. Now, everybody will schedule appointment with you during CMY. No, like guys, schedule earlier so that you have saving by CMY. Okay, so. True, that's true. All right, thanks so much for coming as well. And with that new year to every single one of you guys, Merry Christmas and let's have an amazing two, zero, two, four and beyond. All right, we will see you guys next time. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye.