 Everyone welcome everyone to this keynote panel. We're delighted to have you all here from around the world. My name is Paul Stacy and with us is an excellent panel that our colleague and friend at the campus Ontario Chris Fernland has organized. So Chris, why don't I turn it over to you and you can introduce everyone and get things underway. Sure, sounds great. Thank you Paul. Alrighty, let's get started. So my name is Chris Fernland and I'm the manager of student support at campus on Ontario where I support the student experience design lab or sxt lab for short. I wanted to make a quick land acknowledgement that's alright. I mean, I know we're all joining virtually but I'd like to begin by acknowledging the indigenous peoples of all the lands that we are on today and personally the lands of the peoples of Mississaugas of the First Nation where I'm joining from right now. I'm actually kind of on a reserve is really cool. I mean as a settler I'm grateful to have been welcomed on this land and early childhood and to have been given the opportunity to grow up here with family and friends so please join me in acknowledging our shared responsibility to improve understandings of local indigenous peoples and cultures. So today, thanks to Paul and Alan and everyone at OE Global I have the privilege of introducing a wonderful panel of students studying in Ontario that are relatively new to the world of open. I mean for me personally open is a big concept that offers a lot of value for post secondary education and I live and breathe this stuff almost every day and have the privilege of working with communities who regularly engage with open concepts but for today's I really wanted to take a step backwards I guess and remind ourselves that not everyone has drunk the open Kool-Aid and as some of my colleagues like to say there are sharks in open waters and there's a sense of conviction I guess held by many open connoisseurs that I can call in that that can from my perspective make it challenging for articulating the value of open and the reality is that open can be a steep learning curve and to many of us myself included take a stance that if you're not with us then you're my enemy. That's right I just made a star wars reference it in Toronto. So for today we want to highlight the voice of students and leverage their fresh perspectives the goal really of highlighting that not everyone understands and perceives open like some of the experts do and especially those that are new to the ether of open. So let's hear from students about what open means to them and what they think about open pedagogy or being engaged as a co-creator of education. So without further ado I'd like to introduce Shamal Gormash from Centennial College. She is studying hospitality and tourism and interestingly Shamal is an international student from Turkey and she works with us in the SXD lab here in Ontario. Also with us is Malik Abu Rabia from Laurentian University up in Northern Ontario who is pursuing a bachelor of business admin and also holds the title of Vice President of Education for the Laurentian University Student Association. Last but not least we have Ali Kazmi who recently graduated from the University of Toronto with a degree in history and Pali Sai. He serves as a graduate research assistant for OCAD University and also works with us in the SXD lab. We were supposed to be joined by one other student Brad Delgish but for personal reasons unfortunately he's unable to join us so we'll just continue with the three panel students. Alright, thank you Malik Shamal and Ali for joining us today. Let's kick start the conversation. So, I know we've talked a little bit offline about open but when and again you have admitted that you are sort of, you know, new to the space of open education and all things open but when you hear really the words open education or open pedagogy or open educational resources but mainly open broadly like what comes to mind for you. I can start. So one of the things that comes to me is about participatory learning and technology. So what I mean by that is that I would say that just having disposable quizzes or you know where the audience is only the TA or the professor and if you may perhaps do an essay or you do some lab or some lab and it's tossed out. I think that that is something which speaking as a history student is going paper after paper topic after topic without any real carryover personally now that I'm working in such a different field, namely micro credentials. And so one of the things that that strikes me is that having either some sort of either a capstone project where you know one of the things that when I speak to master students or some of the other experts in my field is that all of the work that they did throughout their their time in school is that they could carry it forward like some sort of like a Bible right so that they can go around and share their work with different workplaces with all sorts of people and it didn't just stay in one place it actually it helped them find out their their their path in life and just that's just the first thing that that comes to mind for me. So you really want your assignments and the work and effort and energy you put into learning assets to be meaningful to have purpose and to, you know, contribute to a greater good thank you for sharing that's that's really really cool to hear. Jamal or Malik if you want to shed some light. Yeah, I think just to add to Ali's point I really see it as the evolution of post secondary education in general so I think there's just been a really big debate over a long time about you know, why do I need this education when I can just learn this all on my own but then there's another conversation of, well if I do that then I won't get recognized for all the work I've done to learn. Maybe even just to give an example of professional development even so I was fortunate enough to work at an autonomous mining company and I know nothing of AI so I decided to do a lot of research online. I had no idea even where to go so just having a platform where where it's really simple to just find a lot of educational resources on the fact, and then have it recognize that oh yes you did do it here's accreditation or recognition for your effort. I think it just really shows that there there's an unlimited amount of things you can learn and, and I feel like education. Before this was really a professor holds your hand reads the slides and after that, you know everything's on your own, and there's no recognition. So I think that it's really great that that it really empowers learning and removes a lot of accessibility barriers to get into post-secondary education. So I really see it as a really great resource that has so much potential, not just for for students enrolled in the university but for lifelong learners, which hopefully I will be after my my undergrad so definitely I mean open is a great concept to leverage that sort of goal to be a lifelong learner for sure Malik I'm really curious before I pass it over to Chanel I mean have you. Do you think that open educational resources specifically are prominent among Laurentian University. I don't think it's a conversation that's really been addressed as much as it should be. I think even just before you brought it to my attention I was like, wow, like I really wish we had that because I find that a lot of courses is really, you know, one textbook, you read the slides and I find like professors have so much knowledge outside of the textbook and I think a lot of students really want to see that like we really are interested in what this professor really thinks. And I and if we are so really really taken advantage of in the classroom, I think we could just really see more exciting lectures in general and one where students can really retain information, enjoy what they're learning and get involved in that process as well instead of just being sort of fed information without having that back and forth which is especially challenging in an online format. Thank you very much for sharing Malik. I'm very curious to hear from Chamele from the college side of things in Ontario. I guess Malik and Ali already said, a very important part of what OE is to sum up what they just said I think in short, I would say when when we talk about OE or open education, what comes to my mind on top of my head is flexibility and inclusivity are maybe two of the most important components for a good quality education experience. I talk about flexibility and inclusivity because, like Malik was saying, in post secondary we're not really being informed about other pathways to receive a quality rather than just, you know, go to a college listen to the slides and then you're all alone do some assignments and then here's your midterm good luck, you know, this tend to happen. So that's why I think there needs to be a lot of flexibility to make room for each type of student in education, especially in post secondary and OE is a type of resource that can provide that. And also with inclusivity comes like many other topics such as, you know, financial stability or like socio cultural elements so OE is also a resource that can help overcome these barriers as well so it's really really critical for a quality education. So I think that coming to mind upon saying that is really freeing up the learning free enough education and thank you very much for sharing. So, I'm sure everyone has heard a thing or two about this whole global pandemic thing that's striking us still I mean obviously there's been massive global disruption that frankly has directed everyone's experience you know impacted your experience as a post secondary What can you share with us so far about your experiences and how do you think an approach such as open pedagogy can support your, I guess shift to online learning and other students shifts to remote teaching and learning. I think I may. I think it absolutely has been a challenging shift at first. When this all happened in March, we were all like oh my god what's happening right now like I don't know how else to like study because online learning was a part of our lives to an extent but like for me personally I only had one online class before the shift to online in general so there were some gaps that needed to be filled some post secondary educations were like really good with that, creating like consistent curriculums and you know, utilizing as much technological platforms as possible to make it as easy as possible for all kinds of students. At the same time I realized that during that whole like quarantine period before school started. I realized that I was like, taking advantage of already without actually like knowing what the concept is, because in that time, people needed like something to go with right because it was just a weird time like especially with like no school or like, other things to like keep yourself busy you need some sort of like elements to sort of like push you to your best self I guess to have you like feel more motivated. And with that I was able to like learn about new courses that I wasn't interested before. And with that I was able to find a lot of online education resources, open education resources sorry. And that that helped me sort of like start my journey myself without even knowing what is actually. And now that we're talking about this it's sort of like interesting for me that like not a lot of people are aware of what kind of like Jim is always. And yeah, it's definitely interesting. It's really cool to hear actually that you were engaging with open stuff without even really realizing I guess like the massive global movement, such as open educational global. It's very cool. Ali, do you want to shine a light on that question. Yeah. So one of the first year students I was speaking to recently. She was she was also in a history program. And what she was telling me was that because there was so much inconsistency with how courses were being prepared, where we do have some some some courses where you might need to to download three platforms for your book so cobal books or some other like all of these different book platforms, just to get access to something which could not be sourced, because of this transition. And when that happens that can actually take something like that can actually stop that that student from taking, you know, a particular course seriously and then at least all of these cascading sort of thing where they, you know they find that they're not getting dressed, they're not showing up on on camera, they might just be focusing on some of some other courses. And then what she was saying was is that now like there's so much more incentive to go and find my own sources and my own resources to help push this course forward because you know if I'm waiting on the the store to, you know, say that a book is in stock, even though it's, it's digital, for some reason there's some hold up there and that can just really you know, throw students off and that's one of the things that I recall about that. So that that is one point. And the other point that what I found that during this transition the transition period is that whereas before, if you're a student and you're walking through through campus and you might, you know, by chance come across a student booth, there's some sort of promo booth for a particular service with which you would not have known about. Now that everything has moved online, now there's this sort of like, you know, there's this this like clash of all of these, all of these these different terms and like and like models which students didn't really consider before such as the future of work. Right, so now that you know that they have to network online and use LinkedIn more and now they're coming across many more different like sources of forecasting. Now there is that that sense that I have to be much more intentional with my learning right so now there so that's where this this comes into play where it's much like so like just how you spend your time is much more important because time management, especially these days it's quite difficult so that's one thing also I'm seeing as well. Thank you very much for sharing. I love what you said there Paul about providing a direct source of OER for students and I've actually heard of scenarios and student advocacy world in Ontario where students pointed faculty to an OER and kind of put pressure on them to adopt and or adapt the OER. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing that Malik. Yeah, so maybe just to give an Ontario perspective so right now we're actually doing a student survey across the province. And I think just from the early data that we're collecting now is that there's a really big dissatisfaction in our post secondary education across across the province. And I think there's obviously a Chris maybe we actually talked about this yesterday in our meeting you you consider the transition from like the pandemic to online learning, not online delivery but emergency delivery so I really agree with that. It was very rushed I think a lot of students fell in the cracks with different teaching styles and, and I think that a lot of the times the reason why a lot of faculty don't push OER is because you know they want to sell their own textbook or etc but students really are not buying I remember even the first week of class, everyone was sharing the PDF version of the textbook in the zoom chat during the lecture. So, I think that I think there's a lot of just hunger for open education and, and really having, I really believe that education will will never be the same post pandemic than previously, but I think there's just so much clinging to that old way of doing things that it's really not benefiting students at its current form. So, really, with that, their need there really does need to be a big push, be, you know, whether it is through faculty or given to students directly as Paul mentioned I think a bigger awareness, and a bigger push would really be helpful, because, because the data does show that that how it works now is not working for our student body. Thank you for saying all that that's the perfect segue into a directional question that I really want to ask and I know we've discussed offline that open is a new concept for you all. But, I mean you all been quite receptive and encouraging of open education and an open pedagogy and obviously open educational resources specifically but given your emergent or emerging knowledge of open like how can we bring others into the fold. I've been thinking about your first impressions I mean open the value of open can initially be a steep learning curve so so given your first impressions like how might we articulate and persuade educators and other learning professionals or anyone really that open has value so how might we bring others into the fold. Maybe I can start this one with this one so. Yeah, so. Continuing conferences like this first of all is amazing, spreading awareness on the global level is is amazing like I just want to say that first of all. But I think that there's still a lot of faculty that are still not even there with technology in general, at least in the northern perspective here. There's some people there's some professors that still are not getting the idea of zoom. I think that that going and continuing workshops and I think it support will be here will be really needed and I think just a lot of academic workshops with these institutions at the at different levels so that it becomes more consistent as well with the way it's used and not not saying oh yeah I'm just going to use this little tiny thing and I'm not going to let students do anything else. I think there just really needs to be faculty training even student training because, you know, with everything with our core course load already. Some students may say I'm just going to look at the slides and not worry about it. I think that there just needs to be a lot more awareness and and training on all levels. Just to get everyone up to speed and on the same level because, you know, it may seem very daunting at the moment, but once it's explained to you and everything like that, then, you know, I think that that's a really big shift. That might be a broad answer but I think that's the best one I have today. I couldn't agree more Malik. Thank you for sharing that perspective. Shamal, I would like to go next. Yeah. So I have to agree with you Chris, before I talk about my opinion on how steep of a curve that transition to oe can be because like Malik was talking about. There is this tendency to sort of like still stick with like the old or like traditional methods of learning. And I understand that it can be challenging for students to sort of like transition to like learning with self discipline in like in like the forefront of your, you know, learning experience because with oe comes a really big like responsibility for like you to like keep yourself in check. But at the same time, I think other than just, you know, partnering with post secondary institutions there can be other direct ways to reach out to students because I also have to agree with Malik with post secondary institutions want to sell their own books. They the books that they like that's the harsh truth I think but like they're like sort of there to sell those books to make some sort of profit because that's that tend to how it works, but at the same time there like oe resources can find ways to reach out to students directly, be it online platforms be it you know partnering with even like local libraries to sort of like bring these resources to like bring those resources to to be more accessible with, you know, providing partnerships with like different institutions that necessarily doesn't have to be post secondary institutions so I think looking at different ways to, you know, reach out to students instead of their institutions could be a great start to sort of like encourage students to sort of advocate for it. And then one students are pretty much a lot more aware of this than institutions can make better changes to amazing. So great to hear you share that perspective actually thank you for sharing some all. If you want to comment. Yeah, if we're talking about trying to shift perspectives with with regard to schools. I would say that you know sticking to to the basics like so having some sort of small advisory board, perhaps, you know, taking in, you know, student members and student perspectives at the inter departmental and discipline disciplinary level. And then you know just like, pick like a few items to like use test. And then from there, you know, prepare some sort of you know prototype or some sort of presentation, which can then be taken to the, you know, either it could be a vice provost office or something like that. And then you know, hopefully small changes will happen over time rather than expecting some quick radical change which will you know, satisfy everyone, which has been my experience at U of T, you know, when we when we used to work for making our convocation ceremony ceremonies, more accessible these processes take time. Yes, I can totally relate to that institutions can sometimes be slow moving ships but I mean, change can be infectious especially change or a concept such as open at least for what I've seen it just it is a steep learning curve as you guys have mentioned to really come to terms and come to grip with understanding like the value of open so thank you guys for sharing. Any questions or a question in the chat from Lena. Great. Lena question if your teacher asked you to be a collaborator in your learning experience, what would that look like what form might it take. It's a great question that you actually know, I mean, I wanted to quickly say to like the bread and butter of the campus Ontario student experience design lab is to meaningfully include and engage students with the design and operation of the Ontario higher education system that ultimately exists to serve students and we wholeheartedly believe that by engaging students as co creators of knowledge or curriculum or delivery methods etc than an educator journey to educate and a learner's journey to learn will be much easier and more conducive to that sort of end user experience so I think when you were afforded such an opportunity like what would an ideal open partnership between your faculty and use a student look like like how do you imagine yourself as a colleague or contributor to your own educational experiences as lean is asking. I think that's a really great question. I should never really consider that one before but I think in general. Students are paying tuition like this, I think, at least for me, you know, I really want to say in my education. I think that there's a really big demand of students really wanting to have a seat at the table and get an understanding of that. I think there's already a lot of cases where, you know, different departments and faculty committees already have students seats. And I think that one, including more students seats within those already existing committees but then having subcommittees within those departments and faculties to address these specific academic concerns. I think would already be a pretty easy first step to start because that's added a lot of institutions are there are already students at the table. But again, I think Ali really mentioned again like that that there should be advisory boards and should be committees already at the administrative level out of a lot at a lot of institutions. So I think continuing or following that and just being very conscious about about student involvement in those decisions is really important. I think choosing, choosing specifically personally I feel like discussions like this is I've learned more in discussions like this than than anywhere I possibly could and I think continuing these conversations at the institution level is so beneficial. And having and making it so that the classroom is not only controlled by the professor but also how to say by by students, I think would really be beneficial. Yeah, and to touch on what Malik just said, I think, apart from a faculty wide committees, which I agree should already be in place. Apart from that, I think students also should have a say in like how the how a particular class goes, you know, like, while the class is going, there still should be opportunities to like make changes to the course outline. Talk about the assignments talk about how much they are worth and sort of like decide what is important what what type of deliverables are the most important for a student with the students because instructors tend to sort of create their own course outlines that sometimes tend to not align with what students might need. And because of that, that like outline should be open to changes over the course of the entire semester like the entire duration of that course being thought. And that can be achieved really easily you don't really need like a committee for that, but it can be like a survey that can be like attached to the, to the course shell on like the learning management system such as bright space that we use. So like simple surveys like that every other time before after class to talk about like where this class is going and how, like the instructor or the faculty can improve this, and what should not be done anymore and what should be like done from now on etc etc. So, questions like these, while the classes still going is very very important to sort of like decide what students value the most I think. You're speaking my language for my personal preferences for education I mean flexibility should be front and center and education should be iterative from my perspective especially curriculum I mean students learn in very different ways and appreciate different options for multiple forms of delivery one size doesn't fit all I think and that's that's really really cool you say that alley. Yeah, just to keep going on that multiple forms of presentation, one of my fondest memories from from last year at U of T was one course called the politics and culture of Scandinavia. One of the great things about that course and with how, with how visionary that that professor was was that we could actually go in and interact with the source. Whether that's we go and see, we actually go to a Danish architecture firm, or we actually get to speak to the Swedish ambassador to Canada at the monk school, or, and all of these different things. One of the ways that you could make this sort of course plan more open is that perhaps the the class itself, depending on its size, could recommend certain trips now obviously in the in in these days of the, the pandemic it's much trickier. That's one of, that's one of the ways that you know just having eight students say in the, in the trajectory and the pit stops of a particular course. Sorry. Yeah, I almost wonder if, like, so in the summer there's this time period between the time you register for courses and the start of the first semester I almost wonder, because I feel like faculty will will say you know what about the syllabus I need to have that ready etc. If there was an availability to have, you know, to send out an email to students in the summer say hey guys. If you want to join my committee in the summer when you're probably prepping for school anyway. Maybe if you would like to have a say and maybe we can explore these opportunities before giving a syllabus to the entire class. I wonder if, if that would be a great way to just to not even to even just to relieve stress on students already having a big workload within the semester, and then faculty worrying about about those syllabus as well. I think that would be a great idea because like you start paying for the school in summer and then couple months later you just start and you're like surprise. I don't know anything here like I just know the names of the courses and like I have no idea what's going to happen now. So I think that's definitely a great idea to sort of like kickstart that process even before the school starts to sort of like not only prepare students for like what's coming but also give them a voice and what needs to come I guess yeah that's amazing. Anything at all. Very well said though, everyone. I'm going to pull some other questions from the chat here. Another question. Do you guys notice that the emergency remote teaching. Does it encourage teachers to learn about the possibilities of OER or they're just trying to keep up with their old ways of sheets and monologues I guess to expand on that question or sort of simplify the question I mean. I heard of echoes of faculty members that are potentially, you know, open to the idea of open. Have you heard anything within your networks at all. Not really I'm going to have to say because like while most of my professors personally are not like looking forward to like go back to like to the old way completely of teaching, but they're still making us by textbooks. And they're still putting up documents that are not like that don't have any like creative commons like licenses or anything like that. There is no information for us that can be like reused or remixed or any other types of flexible information for us. And we still like even everything is online we still have to go and buy a textbook, whether it is like physical copy or a digital copy. We're still not provided like other ways of getting the same type of education or the same amount of knowledge. And that's sort of, that's interesting because I feel like faculty should be more and more aware of we are because it's not something that just helps the student, but it also gives the instructors a unique voice when they're explaining the whatever topic is that is being talked about because they're able to put their own voices into the OER and from there it like that can grow to become a much better piece of knowledge than like those textbooks that we're paying for. Thank you very well said, Shamal. I want to potentially, before I pass it over to you to Ali or Malik, I want to potentially solicit questions from faculty or anyone on the call right now who may not be plugged in in the open ether and might just be kind of warming up to the idea of open. I'd love to hear from some of your concerns and or questions or things that you're kind of coming to terms with coming to grip with. As you consider, you know, working with open concepts or open educational resources are meaningfully including students just want to plant that seed for later. If you guys want to sort of ask questions there. Malik, do you want to jump back to that? Yeah, ask it again if you need it. Oh, it's okay. So I think just in terms of remote delivery, I really can't expect fundamental change in the month that faculty had to switch from in person to online. So I really did not expect a ton of fundamental change there but I think now as things are sort of becoming more normal it's been a year since the since COVID-19 became a thing. But so I think right now is a time where we can now spread awareness through conferences like this and now I believe that a lot more faculty are becoming more open to the idea as we now know that this is not going to be something that just ends and we're back to where we were in So I think now that that reality is more or less settling in there'll be a lot more faculty are becoming more open to that idea but still but it's still very hard with the sort of capitalization of post-secondary education. It's even for students it's sort of hard to believe it's too good to be true a lot of the time you know when something is free and you get credits for it it's like oh what I think that once those fundamental ideas become become more mainstream I think around with conversations like this for example, then I believe that we can really push on from there but yeah but that I really think that things were going to be, you know from like a faculty 20 years of experience was going to go from that to something completely different within a month I probably not but I think now now is a really good time to start thinking about that a little bit more. I truly appreciate your empathy here and understanding Malik I mean from my perspective of I was a student now I just be screaming open left and right across this is really appreciate your understanding there. Ali do you want to comment on the question in chat. So just to quickly reflect on the previous question so. And again, a comment theme that I'm seeing from talking to students is that because of the presumption that students now have more time since they are at home, either the workload stays the same or it increases and just and then their stresses, they also cascade. So, and so that's one of the things is that now that we might that in the coming months will be shifting towards a hybrid model is that how can professors and TAs sort of adjust their, their, their attitudes and their teaching methods for both the in person students or the asynchronous class and have have have empathy for both of those populations now. One of the questions I'm just seeing in the, in the chat from Christina is that just going back to the Kate, the Kate to 12 years, what might open education have looked like there. The OEG advocate for open, open, open education in K to 12. One of the things that it's been a while since I've been in K to 12 but when I was in high school, I was in high school after they had removed in Ontario the old grade 13. And one thing that you that you do see, especially in post secondary like programs is that in your senior years is that you can essentially build your own course. Now, I'm of the personal opinion that high school does not really prepare you for the next step in, in some cases, and also based on on your program so having that sort of grade 13 or having an extra an extra year to really, you know, work with what you've done and like get a sense of your transferable skills and see how that feeds into where you want to go for post secondary. Do you want to go to post secondary. That's something which is sort of missing from this conversation about, and I'm really glad that we're also focusing on not just the university experience but what comes before that. Very, very well said thank you for pulling that question in the chat. I want to also pull another question I swear I'll get to the other questions as well in the chat there's lots of really good activity here which is great, but I want to pull from a question from Paul Stacy about that's relevant for this conversation. It is how would you change the capitalization of education. If you were in full control of a beast of post secondary in Ontario. I think, I think really that revolves around public funding. So, even 15 years ago student tuition really only made up for maybe 1510% of the university's budget now it's a little more than half. I think those numbers are really concerning and there's so much more pressure for students to pay higher and higher tuition and international students are facing that by sometimes paying up to five times more than domestic students and that there just needs to be more of a national and sort of like provincial at least for Canada province but, but sort of that understanding that education is really the is really such a investment to the future workforce of that area that I think it should not be, it should not have to go to, you know, increase student increasing student debt and increasing capitalism and an education and a post secondary education the same way that most secondary education is not private either. It's so hard for me not to praise everything you guys were all saying. I think it's a very tricky question to sort of like find answers to because it's a big topic. And it affects so many other aspects of what education can bring to your life. But I think public funding is the number one key I have to agree with Malik here. Other than that, at this moment I can't really think of anything else other than you know, having public funding for like in order to eliminate high textbook fees. I think there's the fall to sort of like just like create a free and open to learn environment because not everybody's able to buy those textbooks and not everybody offers, or provides OER's, or they don't even want to do that because here there was a question about talking about sometimes people tend to think that like, because one resources free, it's not very good quality. I think that idea should be changed because there's something fundamentally wrong about this in my opinion. I, from my own experience, I realized that faculty and students tend to think that a book is like a higher quality, just because it's got some shiny cover and then some like colored photos, some like nice text, you know, but nobody, like nobody really reads the book before deciding on its quality is what I realized and like if you were to like compare the paid resources, as well as OER's, I am positive that we would not see that big of a difference. While, you know, like textbooks that we pay for might have some more relevant information because they're published a lot late, like that happens but at the same time that like I said that gives the professor to like create their own voice into like what is it that's being thought. So I think other than just, you know, like public funding, there needs to be a shift in thinking in terms of how we perceive OER, how we perceive cheaper resources I think. I'm so happy you mentioned the quality piece very, very well said because like when I was first being introduced to the concepts of open admittedly I fell victim to that sort of concern, which I now think is baseless that you know the quality of OER specifically were significantly lower and I mean upon actually seeing the bound version of a textbook and it was more than equivalent especially considering the flexibility and customization, you know, the options that are afforded with various licenses so very happy you said that Shamal. Ali, do you want to comment at all. Yeah, so just just on that last point again one of my other fund flashbacks from from U of T is that I had one policy course where all of the TAs found the textbook to be to be absolute rubbish, and they sort of united against their their professor of the course was kind of stuck in his ways. And then for each chapter or for each chop for each topic. They actually sourced their own research or you know some other better, more comprehensive subset substitute over this this textbook. Now this could all have been and this actually cause a bit of a slow down in the course. Right so that you know that so that you know they have to make sure that all of the students could actually could actually access those sources. So that's like it's one of the things that that can actually happen. Right so it goes back to that point where you know that you know that a fancy textbook by like Norton or Pearson or whatever it's not always perfect for the needs of a particular class. So I'm seeing lots of things in the chat about the importance of the student voice with, you know, open advocacy broadly and so I want to pitch a question to you guys like what do you think or why do you think many students are still not aware of the idea of open educational resources and how can open education really draw student interest and engagement or how do you think we can draw student interest and engagement. I can spread the word. You want to go ahead Malik. Sure. So, I think students are actually already sort of getting an awareness of open education I think we're already seeing that by the transition from like just online learning and just out of the classroom learning. I think it's more or less just a matter of our institutions not quite knowing and not really sure how to advertise it how to incorporate it themselves so I think as institutions are figuring it out they're saying well we're not really going to advertise it if we don't know ourselves. But I think students are already sort of getting an idea of, or even just doubts of the way the system currently works and we've seen that already in a ton of discussions already. I think that I but I also think that students are really an underutilized resource in a lot of institutions, even when I think about projects that are that would potentially change the way student life works and I and I always hear oh we don't have a faculty member to work on that we don't have this or that and I'm like you have a campus of 10,000 students that are that are eager to improve the resume and get to work. So I always think about these things and anytime I bring up these points I just hear faculty going huh, I wish I thought of that. And then, and then, so I really think that once institutions get an aware and idea that to utilize students and that we're really passionate about about having a say in our education then I think that would be a lot easier than then the sort of tension and and and friction with our current discussion. Sure, I'll, I'll say something. Um, so one of the things that just just to respond to that question is that it also goes back to how students view school right so is it transactional in nature is it a top down sort of system is it. Is it something that they just view as it's just all focused on on grades and do they just see it as a stepping stone and then figure out their life later rather than actually using school as a sort of creative foundation for that. One of the the things that I think back to about what really made me invested in in U of T was when I actually got to be a part of what made made that school tick. Right so not just being a student, but being an active part of participant in making that that school better. Right, so the way I did it was through working with their student accessibility services and working with different co design teams to make different aspects of that school better. Now if we took it down to the micro level of how can we make a course, how can we get students more invested in their, their courses. It can go go back to my my previous point about them having a say in you know what is the trajectory of a particular syllabus, can there be you know if it's a year long course, can there be tentative blocks within that syllabus that beforehand students can have a say in one one other thing which I've also noticed with how, if we're talking about the, the online context is that students. They are very proactive in preparing for, you know, tests and finals. They always have some sort of shared document, but actually if that shared document, you know, or that sort of format could be, you know, pushed towards some sort of collective capstone project, which then you know that they could have a stamp of that saying that yes that this, this competency was was gained that there's there's some sort of digital credential or some sort of some sort of evidence that they can take with them and not just leave a course behind. And like what I was talking about prior that you know, if it's a topic or if it's a paper that not just leaving it in in your safe folder but actually it's a, it's a, it's a part of you. Not even shaking my head it's just actually amazing to hear these perspectives. I'm seeing a question in the chat, which I think you just answered Ali and that is like would you have been interested in generating open educational content as a part of your studies and I think I can speak on your behalf Ali the answer is yes you'd love to have that freedom to collaborate and work collectively and that's really getting into some of the concepts we work at eCampus Ontario was student experience design and, you know, focusing on the fact that your work as a faculty member can be enhanced or optimized with having students as contributors and co creation models. It's really cool to hear Ali Shamal. So, the original question was like I mean how can we bring more students into the fold and how can we promote more open educational content and awareness among students. I think a marketing buff I think like my head sort of like goes into like the more technical part of this question. I absolutely can vote for the fact that if enough students were aware of this gem that is OE. What better changes can be made, or if students were were able to like access these resources a lot more. It would have been a lot better so I think what like what what it comes down to is, I think, marketing and how the outreach is being done. What reaches a big component in this sense I believe because the way you talk about this, this product the way you market it the way you showcase this to students have a big impact because one way that you can showcase OER is, you can say oh look, there's some cheap resources here that you can use instead of this shiny bright colored expensive textbook. And that really is not going to have like a positive connotation for students. When they're thinking about what OER is they're going to think of something less of a quality than what school is already providing for them. So I think finding new ways for, you know, student communication and incorporating student voices into advocating for OER I think is really really important. Just as we have SXD lab in Ecampus, Ontario, certain OE institutions can also sort of like maybe try and incorporate some student committees or like advocacy teams that can personally reach out to students instead of trying to create some positive outreach because that personal connection is also what matters to students, especially Gen Z I would say, and yeah like overall better outreach strategies focusing on how we can access students and how we can access marginalized communities. And I think with marginalized communities and other fact comes it's libraries. I think of like how like, if I was a student that was struggling financially I don't have a space to study I don't have any resources study I don't have an internet connection or a stable internet connection. I don't have a laptop that can support what my institution wants me to wants me to do. So I think we can actually become like a great pathway for students to sort of like, see more possibilities for OER, because libraries can definitely partner with these types of resources to sort of like, give them to their to their members. I know that Toronto Public Library does this to an extent, but nobody's aware of this because they're not advertising for it they're not they don't have a marketing strategy for this I have to like, go to Toronto Public Library just like go through all of their like websites and see what kind of like educational support they provide to me so definitely like have you like showcase your product is super super important, especially for a clientele that is more like youngsters I would say. So, yeah, couldn't agree more. I mean I definitely think libraries is sort of an untapped niche where students can get involved and help sort of with the promotion of the curation of educational materials, especially open ones that's really a great point. And speaking to some of our missions that he campus Ontario with the sxt lab is to thoughtfully and really proactively include students, you know, with conversations and moving beyond simply tokenism of you know we included a student on our advisory board actually preparing them and they're on the same page and can actually engage critically to the same extent as a faculty or educator into answer your question Paul should every institution have an sxt lab. Yes, definitely, but really I think it just they should have a process where they can meaningfully engage students so that they can contribute equally and participate and try to optimize their own educational journey and collaboration with faculty I mean I personally feel it to be a value. I wanted to get to another question and thank you all for sharing of your suggestions for how we can spread the word with students but a good question from Alan, and we're talking a lot about open educational resources and open textbooks specifically but on the theme of sort of this conversation like free not the learning and having more collaboration I mean Alan's question is, is the textbook always essential. I mean, have you ever had courses that were not reliant on one like. Have you guys have ever heard of an opportunity or experienced a course where you know content was not sort of put into one little book but actually spread in other ways. Yeah, for the most part of my classes studying tourism I don't have textbooks for the past year I would say. For the first year we had some textbooks, but right now, most of my professors want to go with case studies and like actual published reports, rather than you know, theoretical knowledge, but I think the fact that I'm not using textbook is also has to do with my profession being a very hands on practical one. I wouldn't be able to have a say in like, say like engineering or any other type of more like theoretical discussions. But even so, there still can be resources that that that are not textbooks that can highly elevate the learning experience. I really was mentioning for one of his history classes they were going to like certain activities or like certain destinations to learn more about the history of Scandinavians and their culture, and that can be done with many other things like, instead of having a textbook institutions or instructors can partner with like an industry professional and have them come to their class for a session and that is like absolutely a lot better than a textbook in every single way. Like industry professional who's good at what they're doing whose experience is definitely going to provide a more meaningful and purposeful information than any other textbook that you can purchase. But it's absolutely never necessary to have textbooks. Yeah, I'll be cautious of time but I think I'm very guilty and the fact that I buy textbooks and I never open them. I think I refer to Google more than anything to learn about terms and I just look at articles but I think there's also another point about international knowledge and, and me specifically I'm very, I'm very, I like to be aware of different perspectives and I think that a lot of the times textbooks are lack perspective. And, and I really like, I'm a firm believer in international education and the world's getting so much smaller but that's not being shown in our classrooms although students are but the content may not. I really think that that open education really opens barriers to international collaboration like this conference for example. So I really think that it has a really good role to play in decolonization and having different perspectives in our in our classrooms not only from the professor but from the content that professor presents. And I think it really summarizes a lot of the conversations we're having which is really about the democratization of knowledge and I mean I personally believe the spread of knowledge amongst people is critical and not just privileged elites. I mean ought to be the focus, especially in a publicly funded system and in libraries for sure in particular public libraries and modern digital technology such as the internet play a key role in opening up access. I'm sorry I'm so sorry you probably want to say some things because you're super smart and know a lot about these concepts but I'm looking at the timer and there is nine seconds left so I wanted to take this time to thank everyone for joining today and thank the panelists for, you know, taking the time to create a share your perspectives and I mean we need more students like you have this I guess drive to want to improve the educational system and promote things that open and really spread the value and so thank you all for for sharing your perspectives and really great to hear from you guys. Thanks Paul for the invitation to talk about some of these things. So fantastic we could keep this one going for hours I think. Well thank you all it's really been fantastic I and I can see the questions just keep on rolling so thank you all, especially Malik Samal and Ali and Chris for organizing this, we really appreciate it. And you can hear the interest from all of the participants and so I think we're on the cusp of kind of evolving and moving towards a more open education approach and I really feel like you guys are going to be enablers. So thanks so much. Bye everyone. Thanks Paul.