 There are nine days until Britain goes to the polls and since landing last night Donald Trump is in the UK This is always going to be a tricky moment for Boris Johnson But as it stands Trump is keeping to the script He hasn't said anything about backing aside in this election And he's even said he wouldn't want Britain's national health service if it was handed to him on a platter Should we believe America's president who just happens to be a pathological liar? And what will the British public make of the Donald's visit to discuss this and more I'm joined by the inimitable Ash Sarkar Pleasure to have you here this evening I'm also joined by angry medical student Julia Simons Hey promised to be slightly less angry slightly less angry threw a chair across the room Angry at nine years of Tory cuts You might recognize Julia because she went viral right at the start of this general election in fact in a video that we showed we showed Oh, we showed on I forgot what the past tense of show was I was thinking is it shoe that we that we showed on Tiskey's hour at the start of the general election This is why I need a script in case I can't remember the past tense of verbs We're gonna show a short clip of Julia at the start of this campaign when Boris Johnson visited her hospital in Cambridgeshire, so let's watch that now. I Just came out of clinic And I was told that Boris Johnson was coming and I was like, oh my goodness that like as a normal person You never get that opportunity to say something to someone like that. I really want to ask him like what's next? And I was told I wasn't allowed to ask him any questions. I think it's a really good sign This is a PR stunt people who work in this hospital know the reality of cuts like I'm a medical student I don't know the reality of cuts in the way these people do They were all really angry to hear that he's coming here for a PR stunt because we know what cuts have done to our NHS We know that NHS is being privatized even if it's not explained in explicit terms I mean Jeremy Hunt literally wrote a book about how to privatize the NHS and He was scared to be asked questions by members of the general public because he knows that what he's done is Indefensible when you look at the reality of waiting times when you look at the reality of people not getting that treatment when they need it Not because of poor medical care, but because of cuts that prevent it So that clip was shared thousands and thousands of time I think I think about a million times on Twitter Maybe similar on no or seen a million times on Twitter probably similar on on Facebook And I think that was in a fairly disastrous trip trip for Boris Johnson, right? So he visited the hospital He got booed out then you were interviewed outside about the whole the whole incident and how no staff had been informed Tell us about that day. Has it changed your life? You know, I've got to say thank you. It's probably the only thing I can say Thank you to Boris Johnson for which is giving me a platform to reveal his disastrous PR stunt So cheers for not answering my questions. That's great Yeah, so it was really bizarre so quite a senior member of staff walked into Clinic and she was huffing and puffing and obviously I can't name anyone And in a very kind of flustered manner, I can't believe Boris Johnson's here I'd go biff him myself if I could to which I thought Great, I like your senior member of staff sounds a little bit like Boris Johnson. She does a little bit Secretory And so, you know, I went and I probably made a little bit of a mistake by proudly announcing that I hate him with my whole soul Quite loudly to another member of staff who shared my sentiments But that then let me follow him as he led an orchestrated procession out of the hospital and Thankfully, you know not being a hospital regular. He wasn't aware. They're actually two doors to leave So he got all of his security people to block one door not realizing that they left the main door Completely unblocked. So I followed him out that way And you did get a chance to ask him a question So I did try and ask him questions and weirdly everyone picked up on the fact I was talking about the NHS But the last question I asked him as he walked into his taxi show for whatever was have you read the IPCC report? Because more than anything Because you're you're an activist for extinction rebellion medics, right? Yeah, that's a faction. I suppose it's not faction because you don't fight the other factions It's not like the rest of the extinction rebellion firefighters But yeah, the affinity group I suppose is more what it's called. So what did you what did you ask him about climate change? So as a doctor of the future I don't really see the point in learning all of this medicine if we're not going to be living in the same kind of society that we have today and His government's track record and his own articles denying the existence of climate change Betrayed that they have no interest in addressing this issue. So my main question was really like Have you read it? Do you understand the science and the reality is like we're living in kind of a post-truth era And if they do understand the science they're willingly committing us to quite a disastrous future unless they change their act pretty quickly And do you think Boris Johnson has because I mean I remember at the start of this campaign It seemed like Boris Johnson was going to try and be a man of the people he kept walking around, you know, English towns And he was in lots of hospitals But it seems to me that because so many people like yourself have harangued him in those moments There was also very famously the man in in Whips Cross in east London whose son or daughter Young child had been waiting for a long time to see a doctor who haranged him there Do you think he's given up speaking to ordinary people now and just focused on targeted facebook ads? Well, I mean they have plenty of money for the targeted facebook ads and it probably allows them to get less abuse from real people Um, I can't see how Anyone who doesn't believe leave means leave Could in any way approach them in a hospital in a positive manner You have to be completely deluded about the way they've treated the nhs over the last nine years as a healthcare professional To stand and support someone who has pretty much ignored any request from any medical professional body about how to improve the nhs Let's talk about the day's events Which was obviously involving the visit of donald trump There was a nato meeting. That's what he was here for but obviously everyone was you know interviewing him Wondering if he would intervene in the general election. I think boris johnson wasn't too keen for His endorsement. He didn't think that would look particularly good And he hasn't to be fair to him endorsed boris johnson over here But he is following I think boris johnson's script and that is to say that Despite any previous assertion that the nhs would be on the table. The americans have no interest Uh in in our national health service. However profitable it would be to their Pharmaceutical companies etc. And however much it may figure in the ambitions they have in future negotiations He doesn't want it. He's not interested. He he just doesn't care. We're going to watch a clip of him today Brush off a question about whether or not the americans would be interested in getting their hands on our nhs in any future trade agreement No, no, no, I have nothing to do with it never even thought about it honestly, we have Look, we are going to have a great health care system. We're doing great health care work We've got things really running well And if we get if we get elected if we take the house Keep the senate keep the white house. We'll have phenomenal health care But right now we've made it very good and we have 180 million people on plans that they absolutely love private plans that they absolutely love But in this country, you know, they have to work that out for themselves We have absolutely. I don't even know where that room is started. We have absolutely nothing to do with it We wouldn't want to if you handed it to a sort of silver platter. We want nothing to do So you said that donald trump had Asserted today that in spite of previous comments He had no interest in the nhs being on the table in a trade negotiation That was actually a bit of fake news michael Oh, shit because donald trump In fact plainly states that he has never even thought about The nhs being on the table for a trade negotiation And he wouldn't want it even if it came on a silver platter Now there are two Reasons why he might have completely Obliterated his earlier comments this year of the nhs and everything else being on the table One is he's an older fella Memory not so good anymore Or the second is that he's lying to preserve boris johnson's chance of becoming Prime minister and staying in number 10 And the reason why I think we're more likely to be looking at that second option Than the first one is because we have this little thing called documentary evidence showing that the americans are very interested In the nhs being on the table in a trade negotiation So last week with the explosive revelation of the unredacted trade documents of jeremy corbin wielding the receipts Like kim Kardashian Is that they showed that the baseline for trade talks is total market access for us corporations To british public services it showed that across six meetings between senior uk officials And the us that the pricing of drugs had been discussed and significant progress had been made In that area and even just today dominat grab on sky news that vane in his forehead pulsating like bergine just before closing time Uh Said that if the americans choose to spike the price of drugs Following our exit from the european union. Well, that's just their decision to take so All the evidence that we have About what the real intentions of trump are towards the nhs shows that It is within his interest is within american economic interests to have access to the british health care market So then you've got to think has he simply forgotten that or is he lying for a purpose and for long term gain? You decide No, I decided he's lying You framed it as you framed it as an option that people people could Yeah, that was just to make people more comfortable, but I decided Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think many people in the country are gonna are gonna believe that Um, I wondered if we could go into a bit more detail about what was in in those documents when when when corbin was brandishing The receipts last week, which I think were about the objectives of the americans Not so much about what the british had had accepted So what what the tories are doing is every time they go on the tv, they're saying this is absolute nonsense It's lies. Well, actually to be honest at the moment. They just say actually it's from russia Which is completely irrelevant because no one is disputing that the documents are genuine Also the telegraph led with a splash today saying these documents are from russia And they have very little evidence for this They've got the report of someone who was part of the integrative initiative Which we know is part of this anti-corbin disinformation Campaign, but the irony of ironies is that the telegraph themselves broke a story earlier this year based on those same documents Back in june. So are the telegraph now feeling the meddling hand of putin Dictating their editorial copy maybe Yeah, I mean it's not I mean to be honest I thought it was a bit of a strategic mistake on the part of the tories because all that did was push up the news agenda These documents again So, I mean laura pidcock was on sky news this morning I think she was going on this talk about workers rights But she was asked over and over again by kberley about the russian origins or provenance of these documents And she was like well look to be honest. I don't I don't care where they're from I don't know where they're from but the issue is what was in them is not disputed by the british government So let's talk about the contents and the contents that there have been discussions about the nhs in u.s. Trade negotiations And that the americans very much have at the top of their priorities Access to nhs market. So to me the whole russian thing was A mistake by a mistake by the tories just as it was a mistake by I suppose hillary clinton Never focus on russia. It's always a losing game when it comes to politics I mean and and no one is denying the veracity of these documents The only question you have to ask is to liam fox Can you confirm or deny that you were at these meetings to the relevant government ministers? Are these legitimate or not because if they are legitimate? I don't care where they're from where they're from I don't care if rudolf nuriev himself handed them over famous ballet dance Yeah, I was like, I didn't know who that was was he was he a spy? He wasn't a spy, but he was a very famous ballet dancer. I actually think he's now deceased and he was in my favorite episode Of the muppets. He was he danced in the swine lake with miss piggy It's happy less What a man I almost hope that it's kind of some self sabotage from the times where they're like We've been printing such utter rubbish Let's print something that's so ridiculous about these documents coming from russia and corbin being in bed with the russians To alert people to the fact that boris johnson is still sitting on the russia report that yes We ourselves won't report about It just seems absurd that they choose this headline in this tact like I don't think russia is gonna hold the conservatives in this election I think it's probably not going to help the labor party anyway, but let's talk about is boris johnson Going to sell the nhs to donald trump. I mean it is slightly confusing. Should we take that literally what's going on? Fill us in so they're never going to put a for sale sign on the nhs It's not going to win them votes and I think that this narrative has been quickly pulled apart by the right wing media For saying, you know, it doesn't state in those documents. The nhs is for us Sale well, obviously it doesn't what it does say is that climate change is definitely off the table So if in those documents the us are able to say climate change is off the table Why hasn't our government said the nhs is off the table? They haven't because it's not off the table and the idea that dominic rub and so and so like so forth talk about drug prices and try and You know, oh, it will be their choice if they increase them. Well, no actually in us legislation It states they have to aim for full market access full market access for our drug prices means More expensive drugs for the nhs crippling a system that's already underfunded They could have chosen to take pharmaceutical negotiations away from that discussion They could have kept pre-existing trade agreements on pharmaceuticals They chose not to and that particularly places us in a very vulnerable position for the national health service Considering that currently 73 of our drugs come from the eu So when we're looking at no deal 2.0 this time next year, we're not going to have a choice We're not going to be the strong party in that negotiation And we will fall victims to what is obviously a flawed system in the us because they pay So much more for their drugs because of this deregulated free market that ps does not drive innovation That is literally just a myth. I mean, I sometimes feel that I am being gaslit by political commentators so not just you know out and out Full-time cranks like dan Hodges, but also well regarded journalists like Jim Pickard have been saying Oh the left keep going on about privatization of the nhs, but that was really going to happen It would have happened already Exactly we've seen 15 billion pounds worth of private contracts Go out in the last four years You have profitable bits of the nhs for instance responsibility over blood plasma Sold off to private equity firms and they were then sold off again to a chinese company. You've had the Rather than a full-on assault at the principle of the nhs being free at the point of view So although over time that has been eroded to particularly with prescription charges, which Were the first to go shortly after the nhs was founded You have the profitable bits of the nhs is functioning carved up and sold off And that's something which happened under new labor in particular with those pfi contracts Which turned out to be a huge disaster with the collapse of carillion and subsequently Under both the coalition government and the conservatives. So what I find deeply Dispiriting is that commentators who literally get paid To know about uk politics And social history are sitting there like well, you don't have to pay to see the gp It's not been privatized because it seems to me that they don't know what privatization means themselves I mean Actually, you know what I'm good. I just remembered it. So I'm going to say it now You're watching tisgis. I you're watching the viral media as you know this organization this show This channel is only possible because of your kind support if you are already a subscriber Thank you very much. You are what makes this possible. If not, please go to support dot navara media dot com And give us the equivalent of one hour's wage a month and potentially give us an election bonus announcement From today, we will be going nightly on weeknights at least until the general election And on the evening of the general election, we will have once again election sesh which will be I suppose about six hours of unadultered live tv from in this studio where we Will we pick through the exit polls and the results as they come in talk about what is coming next I suppose look back on the campaign when there are quiet moments in terms of results coming in Quiet reflection Exactly the beautiful thing about navara media is that we are free at the point of use We're kind of like the church. We're free at the point of use, but we do accept tithes But soon we will be like the nhs in the sense that anyone Earning a decent income will have to pay us a proportion of it so that we can keep going out Is that one of john mcdonnell's secret plans that he's going to just launch three days before election day? He told me personally when he came on to do an interview said michael there's there's only one condition I will hold you to for us to give you I suppose a license to run forever based on on direct taxation It was that you start running on time and and and today we we went live at eight minutes past eight which to be fair is an improvement So I think that's going to go down pretty well like a virgin trains definition of punctuality Getting better Although I noticed that many people in the comments were very surprised we went live about eight past eight And I'm worried that we've sort of done a boy who cried wolfing so that now you don't believe we're going to go live until 15 minutes afterwards so you tune in late but in any case Um from now until the general election Although I say from now until the general election will start on time But tomorrow Aaron Bustani is hosting much as I love him doesn't always turn up on time But neither do I we're just as bad as each other. I feel bad now You mean Aaron Beth Tadi Oh, I like that Anyway, tune in tomorrow a it will be excellent um We are going to talk about past statements From the current Tory cabinet and the current Tory prime minister. You said it is somewhat uncritical somewhat unreasonable for British Commentators or journalists to scoff that the NHS is still not been privatized. So why are these lefties? Still going on about it even though we know. Yeah, the privatization has doubled since 2010. They're already doing it Because they went through the NHS documents basically find in page NHS control didn't find it and they were like, well, there you go case closed And I think also in terms of like what this government has already done in terms of privatization The media has a responsibility to hold them to account for that and they just haven't so in 2012 There was legislation placed that basically says any contract above 600 000 pounds has to go out for tender to private companies and that happens and that's basically led to Private companies take cherry picking the parts of the NHS where they can make You know squeezes to patient care and generate profits and I think that generation of profit is completely Uncovered by the general media because they don't talk about the fact that when companies are making profit out of providing services for the NHS They're making profit out of you the taxpayer And they're also not making profit by providing better care because the british medical association has looked at these Independent service providers and examined whether or not the care is better and it's it's not there's no evidence There wasn't even any evidence to bring in this principle of marketization And actually it's completely ideological to have done it because it has got worse and they don't even talk about it It's absurd Let's talk about the ideology of these bastards Yeah, we're currently in the government and we're running for reelection. We're gonna look at bastard number one Michael Walker just said fuck it, mask off It was Dominic Raab I was gonna I was gonna get I was gonna get into sort of four letter words. It's election time I don't want to say anything that can be construed as It's too offensive. Let's look at Dominic Raab with his pulsating vein on radio four this morning As he has read his past statements on what he wants to do to our beloved health service Can we get that clip up now? Roll it Fox That's a ludicrous assertion and the reality is Is it true or not that you wrote that pamphlet You can you've picked probably a snippet from a pamphlet written a long time ago, but I can tell you categorically I've never advocated privatization of the NHS It also said the NHS should take advantage of the extra efficiencies Private companies can provide it was called after the coalition and you were one of the authors Yes, I co-authored with uh, I think there were five of us in total Look when you go into your average hospital, you see a cost of coffee there You see a florist there Is anyone seriously suggesting that the nurses the doctors the civil servants in the department of health should be running those services That's wholesale different from talking about Um clinical services. We're absolutely clear the NHS is not going to be privatized the big expansion of Private companies in the NHS took place under the last labor government when the current shadow health secretary John Ashworth was advising on pfi project Talked about hospitals being run by private companies. It didn't talk about coffee shops And florist it said hospitals and your name was on it Certainly wasn't anything I wrote and it's certainly not I just want to say that Dominic rab when forced to give an account of himself to nick robinson Had the demeanour of a man who's telling you that it's your fault that he cheated Do you know what I mean? It's that way of like talking like I know you've caught me out But actually if you look at this carefully it was your fault because you're working later And I'm but a man and I have urges like it really had that I feel a bit triggered. I mean I feel a bit like this is bringing back some really bad memories I mean the thing that nick robinson is referring to there as dominic rob's Vane is about to explode because he's reading him back quotes that he wrote in his own pamphlet in 2012 How dare he maybe we should send him to his gp for that that vane He probably won't get an appointment anytime soon Yeah, no, he can't wait three weeks like It was a it was a pamphlet called after the coalition published in 2012 with other Leading figures now in the government such as pretty Patel lis trust quasi-quarteng and chris skidmore Who I got distracted by his name They said they wish I have about six That two-thirds of hospitals could be run by Private firms or by nonprofit organizations. So basically they're talking about the denationalization of of the nhs In that interview dominic rob is trying to say well, I mean we were only talking about cost of coffees And nick robinson fair play to him We you know, we don't always think that the the bbc are as tough on the tourists as they have to be fair play to him He said that no you were talking you were talking about hospitals. You weren't talking about cost of coffee. It's written down It's in print And yet still he tries to deny it. I mean you can look at the privatization statistics Oh, we're not we're not privatizing the nhs And this idea about cost of coffee being so normalized as a franchise in a hospital if you look back to The 1988 documents that were written by a guy called oliver latwin who you might like because of his amendments on the withdrawal agreement bill. No, I am a big critic of oliver latwin because This is going back some time now. He was an advisor to margaret thatcher That's exactly during the time of the broad water farm riots and He said that there was no point in trying to fund these disadvantaged harassed Oppressed communities and inner cities because they would spend it all on disco dancing and drug dealing oliver latwin Bastard well, he also advised margaret thatcher on how to privatize the nhs by stealth and part of that plan talked directly about Bringing in these businesses like costa and hairdressers and how this was quite a good way of, you know Slowly bringing in the private market into hospitals. So it's funny now in 2019 dominant rob saying, you know, oh, well, you know It would be costa Well, yeah, that was literally part of your plan that you're currently enacting to privatize the nhs And if you look at that document and the things that they have introduced that legislation that forces Marketization, which is ineffective patient care is exactly what they wrote about in 1988. So Oh, lefty conspiracy that the nhs they want to privatize it Yes, because you've written that you want to privatize it and not just you Multiple people in your party because it disagrees with your fundamental principles that oh the nhs is actually a communist organization Quote from the south cams labor not labor cancer conservative Uh Bastard Dominic Robb defenders of him would say look, we're still going to have an nhs that's free at the point of delivery We might have profit making hospitals who are leaching off Taxpayer money, but ultimately it's not going to be like america. It's not going to be like america That's what even people like k. Andrews from the Institute of Economic Affairs who's, you know Is constantly on the tv to say that we need radical reform of the nhs said, oh, no We're going to privatize it, but it won't be like the usa. Well Someone said that we shouldn't have an nhs free at the point of delivery. This emerged today Who could this someone be surely it couldn't be anyone who's currently got a position of Considerable influence in the conservative party and presumably it would be completely implausible for it to be the person who's running to be The prime minister or who currently is the prime minister to be fair to him He did brandish the documents We're brandishing the documents, which you can read on business insider Will potentially get up on the screen now So we're going to quote from boris johnson now If nhs serve this is him in 1995 if nhs service is continued to be free in this way They will continue to be abused like any free service if people have to pay for them They will value them more He added that those who say the future the nhs the future the nhs should be for those who were genuinely sick And for the elderly a bang on the nail So he's saying that too many people are using the nhs who aren't really sick and if we paid for it We'd really value it because there are many people getting their appendixes removed Just for fun. They just they just come in for pay for those. You you damage them less often I mean, listen, I can't go a week without getting my stomach pumped Just for kicks. I'm like, I know I don't need it, but just hit me with the good stuff um, I mean What we see is that particularly with free market ideologs boris johnson being one pretty patell dominic rub Being others is that when they are not in positions of immense power and they're able to talk openly about their beliefs They do it in quite uncompromising terms. So boris johnson in 1995 Is a staunch advocate of payment at the point of use for health care services You go back and you read dominic rub and pretty patell's earlier pamphlets one of which being britannia unchained One of the things that they say is british workers are amongst the worst idlers of the world They're too concerned with football and pop music and it's like yeah football and pop music Fucking great That's why um, and so those times in which they are trying to Cement their position within the quiet reactionary grassroots of the conservative party and also on a very basic level Just saying what they think um You can see plainly what their intentions are but the minute they enter positions of prominence and power They know that it would be A completely it would go down like a cup of sick with the electorate if you go You know what your nana with a broken hip shouldn't be so fucking lazy get us a pay for getting it replaced Of course, it would be an assault on one of our most treasured Institutions in this society So what you've got to do is slowly achieve a culture change with how we think about public institutions So this goes back to the Thatcherite project Which is the association of the public sector with waste with bureaucratic inertia and with inefficiency all around So even defenders of the nhs and people who are in favor of more funding will go Oh, the nhs isn't perfect. Oh, the nhs isn't perfect Well, it is so much better than the alternative when you go to the united states and you even simply look at Their treatment of the homeless and we do not treat the homeless Particularly well in this society But there is absolutely no comparison between what you see in london and what you see in the states and the states you see the compounding of mental health issues with physical health issues with Structural vulnerability because of the lack of social care you see homeless people with missing fingers and toes from years spent sleeping rough and those are things which Just now we are not seeing as commonly in the uk and it's simply because the nhs is still something of a social safety net and so We need to think about how I think we strengthen our cultural resilience our imaginative resilience to the sorts of assault on the public sector because Boris johnson's words in 1995 are the honest ones anything he's saying now those are lies But you talk about this assault on public services and If you look at any of the performance indicators from the nhs You can see that they've actually got worse over the last nine years I think it would be a very skeptical position or cynical position to say maybe they've done this on purpose But then when you look at people like k andrew's from the institute of economic affairs using nhs failure as a reason for legitimizing moving to Insurance-based system you do start to wonder why is a government allowed to put through reforms because they have put through reforms Even though they say that you know all we must change it No, no they did change it in 2012 and those reforms have not made the service better Any of the outcomes would tell you it's making it worse. Well Why are they doing this? Why are they refusing to listen to doctors saying please scrap the pensions cap because it's stopping us from working Even though we want to why are they not listening to nurses who say don't scrap the bursary will have less nurses And then say oh, we're going to bring back the nurses bursary Please elect us not the actual nurses bursary though just five thousand pounds grant because we wouldn't want to actually bring it back Because that would be against, you know our small-state ideology um bars bars, yeah That's the old chomsky adage, isn't it? Which is that you sort of you run down a public service as an excuse to then privatize it because say oh, it's in complete crisis We're going to have to have such radical reform that we get rid of the goddamn thing And we're going to look at where that has happened Particularly Colchester and northampton were huge amounts of Local authority provision has been outsourced to companies like capitol and it has been honestly an unmitigated Disaster particularly in northampton, which is one of the worst performing councils in the country. It's been an experiment in the ruthless Pulverizing privatization agenda and it's now on the verge of collapse And you've also got colchester where Lots of aspects of children's Social care child protection was outsourced to a company called capitol And it was both more expensive and less effective when it came to looking off to children We're going to park the nhs for the moment as I suppose the Tories would like to do I'm going to talk about another triangle of bastards I want it's a quiz for the audience. You've got to guess who we're going to talk about next They're probably worse than Boris Johnson and Dominic Robb, I'm going to say One of them we've talked about already One of them is Was born into money and power and one of them is dead Can you guess who our next triangle of bastards is? One we've talked about already One who's dead one born into money and power Okay, we can't make them to guess it. There might actually be a delay in any case. We're going to talk about Prince Andrew Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein This is because Donald Trump not only came over to our great nation Last night and and we think told some porkies about his desire to get his little hands on the nhs I mean, it's not just we think it's it's it's a fact that he he said I've never considered the nhs where we he's on camera about two months ago saying the nhs will be on the table So that's it's not our opinion. That's written In fact That that was a lie. The other lie he told was about his relationship to prince Andrew everyone everyone was getting re-smoked for I don't I'm not even sure if anyone suggested fdr Churchill Stalin and I was going to be like When did we mention? Someone did get Epstein. Anyway, tell us about what Donald Trump had to say about Prince Andrew today And why you think it's bullshit? So this is why I think that Donald Trump was briefed on certain topics to deny all knowledge of One being the nhs and the other of course being Prince Andrew just last night bbc panorama aired a documentary Into the allegations regarding Prince Andrew and virginia Geofrey, I think Her original surname was roberts Yeah, um who was a girl who was Trafficked by Epstein horrendously abused by him and alleges that Prince Andrew did the same in the early 2000s uh When asked about Prince Andrew Donald Trump claimed that he doesn't know him now This is a difficult one to unpick because who knows if this is true or not because Donald Trump now insists doesn't know Prince Andrew Unfortunately, the Donald Trump of just a few months ago was boasting To the sun that he had played a few rounds of golf with Prince Andrew And had beaten him and the Donald Trump of a few months ago also attended various social Occasions while visiting the uk at which Prince Andrew was in attendance and unfortunately for the Donald Trump of the present day The Donald Trump of the past had a picture taken with Prince Andrew In which you can see glaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein in the background. Can we flash that up? There we go. We have got Donald Trump. We've got Prince Andrew We've got glaine Maxwell poking her head in from the side and Jeffrey Epstein So many receipts on tonight's show Like the ghost of pedos past just Looming in there. So again, this is something which was either a genuine omission of memory or an outright lie But I think this is really important and the reason the reason why I think it's important is because we often think of Child sexual abuse and sexual abuse more generally as something that happens And is perpetrated by men who leap out from the bushes. They were, you know, long coats and you can tell who they are That's not the case at all The more powerful and unaccountable Men are the more able they are to perpetrate forms of sexual abuse and what you saw around Jeffrey Epstein was a code of silence In which everyone knew what was going on And no one spoke up in defense of these girls until one of the parents sounded the alarm Watching the panorama documentary last night. I was really struck by One of the interviewees was a handyman who lived or who worked on the same road as Jeffrey Epstein's I think Palm Beach residents and said, yeah, we saw girls going in and out all the time. We knew exactly what was going on So then when you hear Prince Andrew in an interview that Emily Maitlis saying well I was actually a patron of the NSPCC and I was part of their full stop campaign So of course I knew what to look for for child abuse and I didn't see any signs of it there is I think Part of that code of silence again Well, he also said in that interview which was a shocking hour of TV the interview with Emily Maitlis It was just a couple of weeks ago. He said well, I mean with all due respect I'm used to living in houses with lots of people working with lots of staff And I just must have assumed that all these young 17 year old women who were giving Everyone massages were just staff, which was sort of like his Gross fucking comment I mean So all I suppose that what that panorama doc showed last night is that that was the reason he gave that disaster Interview to Emily Maitlis wasn't it because he was trying to get his version of events out before the version of events of The his alleged victim came to life, which I suppose I mean she gave she gave incredibly Compelling testimony One of the other things that emerged is that there was an email I think between Prince Andrew and Galane Maxwell in which he asked after Virginia Roberts by name so his Key claim that he has no memory of meeting Virginia and perhaps that photograph of the two of them together was a fake Is undermined By this email I didn't clock that bit about the email, but in any case I will double check. I'll take your word for it. I will double check. If I'm wrong I would like to be able to correct it But I like the fact that you value truth. I do it's clearly a post-truth era I mean you have these powerful people and there is Clearly just no accountability for their actions. And I think that's the main thing that we should Andrew sent an email at 5 50 a.m Inquiring about Virginia Roberts to Galane Maxwell. Sorry, you're 100 right. I'm 100 wrong I thought we were going to commit libel. I was worried about it. Um, yeah I don't I don't have royal litigation money I don't have money. We're going to go on to our last topic of the evening before we go to questions which Is uh A very sad one last friday jack merit 25 ansaskia jones 23 was stabbed to death by wasman kahn who had been convicted of terrorism in 2012 They were at a prisoner rehabilitation event when the attacks took place Now a terrorist attack in the middle of a general election is always going to be politicized But borris johnson took this to a pretty shameless Level the prime minister first used the attack as an excuse to get on the andrew marshow He had previously been denied a place on the mark out for his refusal to sit down with the bbc's tougher interrogator andrew neal He then so he went on there the justification with the bbc is that there's been a terrorist attack the people need to hear from their prime minister Then within 20 seconds. He of course Was using it as a as an election stump speech and blaming the labor party for the attack we're going to watch a clip of that now before I suppose talking about all the issues that that I mean this tragic event and then borris johnson's response brings up How could he be out so early? The answer is i'm afraid that he Was out because he was on automatic early release when the judges reviewed his sentence in 2012 They had no option But to comply with the law that labor Brought in in 2008 which meant effectively you say labor you've been in power for effectively that he was out he was out that they had to comply with the law as it stood and he was uh out in Eight years and this was a guy. Don't forget the judge. Okay said was a very serious jihadi And that's why that's why when I I've been I've been in office for 120 days Your party's been in power for 10 years. That's why when I stood on the steps of dining street I said we were putting more money into policing, but I also said in august That we would no longer allow the automatic early release of serious and violent offender I know you've written about this today Ash, I suppose at first maybe could we talk a bit about You know the legal issue. What what did go on? I mean, I find it personally confusing because it was you know It's often in the tourist manifesto that people wouldn't now by standard serve half of their terms And I have always found it a bit confusing that people serve As standard serve half their terms. I don't know why they don't just make the term Or the sentence half as long because what you had was a gap in the legal system So you had Interterminate sensors. I know that you're very clued up on this to correct me if in any place i'm wrong He had interterminate sentences introduced by labor But that creates a problem because you can't have interterminate Sentences by the time someone's cases up for their sentences up for review because they've served a particular stretch You can't just say well indefinitely you have to stay here particularly when there's no parole board oversight So you had automatic release at the point of Parole review or what would have been parole review is this true? I think so So what I understand is that they removed the parole board and that's meant that it was automatic as opposed to reviewed So there was no process in place for looking at that before they were allowed So it is the case that there was a new labor change to The imprisonment of not just terrorist suspects But also thoughts of violent offenders and there was this gap in the legal system that was created But you also had a coalition government which could have closed those gaps in the legal system between 2008 and 2012 which would have probably Prevented as mankind's release in 2012 And let's talk about I suppose the politics of it more generally obviously boris johnson has used this as an excuse to pitch himself as the person who will be tougher on on crimes and tougher on punishment and you know less less inclined to let people out Early and more inclined to locking people up and throwing away the key obviously This has caused some controversy because this goes against everything one of the victims believed in Jack merit and his I know you've we're going to go to you in a moment I should just first of all want to read out a quote from his father So sort of his father in disgust at how this had all been treated by boris johnson wrote a short very powerful article in The Guardian So we're going to get a quote from that So his father writes if jack could comment on his death and the tragic incident on friday 29th of november He would be livid We would see him ticking it over in his mind before a word was uttered between us jack would understand the political timing with visceral clarity He would be seaving at his death and his life being used to perpetuate an agenda of hate that he gave his everything fighting against We should never forget that what jack would want from Want from this is for all of us to walk through the door He has booted down in his black dock martins that door opened up a world where we do not lock up and throw away the key Well, we do not give indeterminate sentences or convict people on joint enterprise Where we do not slash prison budgets and where we focus on rehabilitation not revenge Where we do not consistently undermine our public services the lifeline of our nation jack believed in the inherent goodness of humanity And felt a deep social responsibility to protect that through us all jack marches on Borrow his intelligence share his drive feel his passion burn with his anger and extinguish hatred With his kindness never give up his fight to jack merit now and forever I mean, so I wrote an article about this which was published today because I was really struck by the fact that Dave Merritt's specific condemnations of both the right-wing press and Boris Johnson for using the memory of his son to advance a reactionary criminal justice agenda Was understood by lots of journalists and repeated by lots of journalists as a generalized plea not to politicize the tragedy And so we've got to think about what the word politicize means here because obviously there are grubby forms of electioneering mostly You know embodied in Boris Johnson's horrendous interview on the marshow and there are reductive insulting Cynical ways of viewing this tragedy, which I thought were particularly demonstrated by the times doing sort of polling projections You know imagining the impact that the terror attack would have On the election, which I just sort of thought, you know, you're you're taking these two young lives to very dedicated, intelligent, compassionate people And you're understanding it through the lens of What does this mean for 3% marginals? You know, I mean there was something about that that felt Insulting and tawdry and tasteless But then there is the flip side of saying don't politicize this And often that means don't try and understand what has happened by placing it within a political context Now all acts of terrorism by definition are political acts There are justifications, there are reasoning, there are ways in which the act itself is intended to be understood and reacted to by the political structure of the day And there are political circumstances which make acts of terrorist violence more or less likely And in this case, in particular with Usman Khan, I think we have to look quite carefully at the treatment of our justice system over a decade of Tory rule So the Ministry of Justice has endured the deepest cuts of any Whitehall department It has had 27% of its budget cut The probation service has had 22% of its budget cut And of course Chris Grayling embarked on that kamikaze program of part privatization In which Sadexo Tried to sack 700 probation officers to replace them with electronic kiosks For ex inmates to go and check in and out of Do you think that people are made safer through interaction with trained staff members or a glorified ATM machine? You tell me this You also have cuts to the prison's budget Which has meant that you have these dangerous rates of overcrowding You have spiraling rates of inmate suicide And also of inmate assaults both on staff and on each other And these conditions in prisons have meant that in-prison rehabilitation programs of the kind that Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones dedicated their lives to are more difficult to access So these are all of the things that you lose when you turn it into a litigation of the sentencing regime Because I think there's something deeply wrong with a political culture Which only cares about prisons when it's time to be tough on crime And which only talks about prisons in terms of how long is an inmate's stay there Rather than what's going on inside the prison Because let's say for the sake of argument that Usman Khan Served the full 16 years of his sentence It would have meant that So he was released in what 2012? Was it? He was convicted in 2012 Convicted in 2012 So it would have meant No because that doesn't make sense to this release I think it was convicted in 2008 No No he was sentenced in 2012 2012, okay all right I've got that wrong But had he served the full stretch of his sentence That would have just kept him in prison for longer And the same risks would have applied when he came out And the other thing that I would like to say Is that we are rightly critical of lots of elements of government Deradicalization programs Particularly when they involve mass blanket Surveillance of racialized populations Like the prevent program But Boris Johnson was personally warned By a former chief prosecutor That you have these inmates who had been convicted Under terror legislation Who have not been de-radicalized And who are just booted out into the community Without adequate support or monitoring He was personally warned about this in 2016 And his answer was well there you go Going on about money again So I completely reject this idea That you cannot understand this act Within its proper political context Because there is a context to it And it is one in which public safety Has been systematically cut back on Because the things that you have to fund Are complex They're not popular They're not immediately easy to understand And then it means when something bad happens You can bolt that stable door shut Long after the horse is bolted And just keep people in Increasingly miserable prison conditions But that's not going to turn back the clock On what's happened Just to clarify in terms of dates He was arrested in 2010 And sentenced in 2010 Okay, cool Yeah, and I think of all that I've learned About Jack Merritt's life over the last few days And I didn't know him But he was a friend of some of my friends Is the fact that he stood up for the underdog And he stood against this kind of rising agenda Of populism that allows us to look at groups of people With hatred This is a young man who wrote his M. Phil thesis On the overrepresentation of black men in prison And yet the same media that perpetuates These horrific damaging stereotypes Are then using this kind of tragedy to say Throw away the key And that's exactly what he didn't stand for He was principled in that he'd stand up for the underdog But he was also practised in it He was clearly a young man who understood What he was doing and why he was doing it And for people to then ignore any evidence base And Boris Johnson to come on the news And talk about increasing stop and search And other regressive draconian measures Is just so disrespectful But it really makes you realise that there's no moral compass To these politicians or to the journalists Who choose to publish such hateful articles Because if they can't listen to the father of a child Who has been murdered by a terrorist Asking them not to do that When will their moral compass ever work? And you have friends of friends who knew him Because he did a masters at Cambridge Anywhere you're studying medicine now I didn't know him at all But I'm conscious that I don't want to do His memory disservice Because obviously there are a lot of his friends Who are hurting right now And family Let's go to some of your questions About anything we've talked about To know about anything that's going on In the world of politics As you are typing those First of all I'm going to plug the election session So on Thursday As the polls close I imagine we'll go live about nine And we'll keep being live until about four am How many hours is that? Seven So that's seven hours of live Navarro media Between now and then we will be live every night Or every weeknight at eight Apart from on Friday When we will be going live at half nine Because it will be post-debate analysis I've already got Paul Mason booked in for that So that will be absolutely unmissable As ever you're watching Tiskitau You're watching Navarro Media This show is only possible because of your kinder nations If you are already a subscriber Thank you very much You make this possible If not please go to support.navarromedia.com And donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month As the election gets closer We want more people to see these videos So like them on Twitter Like them on Facebook And keep your comments coming Share them to your Tory parents Exactly All right let's go to some of your questions Sam D asks If Labour former government How can they undo the privatisation of the NHS That has already occurred Are there not problems with contracts And what not So yes There are problems with contracts and what not But in the Labour manifesto They say that they want to repeal the act That I was talking about earlier So the 2012 Health and Social Care Act And I have to state That this is also in line with the BMA Who say they'd like section 75 of it repealed So basically section 75 is the bit of it That says you have to put out those contracts To private tender But by revoking that whole act You do make some medics quite nervous Because the way that the reforms were brought in In 2012 were drastically fast They were like poorly thought out And most doctors kind of have a reaction of No no we don't want radical reform right now Because we've literally just been through that Seven years ago But yeah Labour do have that in their manifesto And that's not something that they talk about enough Because it's too nuanced for populist politics So there is a commitment to Uh bring to an end all existing PFI contracts That was something which was announced by Labour in 2017 And if you're interested in some of the legalities Of ending the privatisation of public services Whether it's the NHS or whether it's the railways I really encourage you to go and listen to the interview I did with Charmi Chakrabati just last week Because the first thing I asked her Was that if Labour former government And she's Attorney General How would she advise The socialist government on the legality Of renationalising various bits of public services For under market rate Which brings you into conflict Not just with existing legislation On the domestic level But also international treaties as well One of the things that she says Is that if you look at the precedent set In other European countries Which are obviously covered By the European courts of justice Is that the right property is not an absolute right If that was the case You couldn't have taxation You couldn't have any changes whatsoever So you are able to embark On projects of renationalisation And exiting asymmetric contracts And there is precedence To be able to have your legislative programme Upheld in a court of law So check out that interview I really like this question Bobby Fermanos Teeth Interesting name I wonder if that's his real double barrel I don't know what Fermanos means In any case He's canvassing tomorrow in Hendon A marginal job What do you think is the greatest threat To the NHS And what are your favourite NHS related Labour policies So if you look at the two main problems The NHS face right now They would be understaffing and underfunding Both of those are going to get worse If we have a cliff edge no deal Brexit So the first and foremost Is to prevent that I think the Tory's agenda Is a thinly veiled pursuit Of what would be a no deal Brexit That would massively affect the NHS That would affect drugs Before we'd even talked about the US And also, since the Brexit vote We've already seen a massive drop In the number of nurses From the EU applying to come and work here The Conservative party Are basically saying Oh, we'll let the nurses come But not their families That's not fair And people won't come They're humans, not just workers So that is the main threat Is the employment and the ability To get those nurses That we do desperately need Because when we talk about bed shortages That's not that we don't have a bed It's that we don't have the staff To make that bed a bed that we can use So yeah, I think the best policy In terms of nerdy policy stuff would be Getting rid of that privatisation But on the doorstep I think you've just got to say Look, the NHS can't deal with losing free movement We need people In terms of what I'm most excited about I think Labour's policy Of free personal care for the elderly And looking at ways in which you can expand that Would make a huge difference Because we have greater need for the NHS And funding is not keeping up with it And the reason why we've got greater need For the NHS Is because we have an ageing population Now that doesn't mean That once Granny and Grandad Get a bit too old You just sort of leave them on the hillside And you go to Tata now It means that actually the system That they've paid into All of their working lives Should look after them And so that means having quicker GP appointments Because when an old person starts to get sick They don't have three weeks to wait Because that's a guaranteed way Of them needing hospital care Because infections and things which are Very easily shaken off by younger people Can become quite severe in older people And it means having a level of personal care Which is consistent Which is enough time for an old person To be properly taken care of To be monitored in terms of those little fluctuations In their health that happens As someone gets older Those things are really crucial In minimising the need for emergency care And hospital interventions where you can So it's also about changing our approach To healthcare at a societal level One of the things that we do really badly In this country is public health We think of public health as simply being Jamie Oliver comes into your school And gets rid of the turkey twizzlers It's not about having a holistic approach to care Which is also one of the things that's been massively cut But that's such an unending list But it's hard to list it all And I think this is one of the really interesting things About like the terror tactics the Tories are using About you know If you vote Labour you will lose your house Which apparently some candidates have been using on the door Ian Duncan Smith Yeah so people actually do Labour aren't going to take your house Just your job But people actually do lose their houses Over social care Ian Duncan Smith not voters by the way Because that wouldn't be a good answer So social care Like as young people obviously It's not something that we really come across But it costs over a thousand pounds a week To look after your nan in the care home That bankrupts people And the fact that people frame this whole debate About like oh you're going to have to pay more tax Okay well say if you do pay more tax You know that top 5% whatever You're also protected by the state For things that you can't predict And surely that should be something that we focus on Rather than framing this as if You know you're going to be robbed By that extra £10 a month If you earn over £80,000 Well imagine if you were actually looked after When you needed it most Ash Dan Collins is a sixth form student And he sees people who in his economics class Who think billionaires aren't a problem How can Dan get them to vote Labour Okay well The first thing That you should ask your classmates Is how does someone become a billionaire Because there are lots of very talented Very hard working people Who don't become billionaires So the first easiest way To become a billionaire Is to inherit a few million And that's your starting point The other way to become a billionaire Is to own and control a monopoly So the reason why you have tech billionaires Is because they are able to control access To something which everyone needs And that is information In the case of you know In the case of you know Zuckerberg And others it's because they had First mover advantage When people are still working out Just what social media could do They moved first and they were able To monopolise that information But that's also the case with things Like steel with minerals And then the other way is through Exploitation And so we can see this with Jeff Bezos So yes Amazon have a huge share Of internet retail Verging on a monopoly But also you have a business model Which relies on creating The worst possible conditions For your army of workers So that means high levels of monitoring Coupled with very very low pay And so that's how you're able To have Jeff Bezos become a billionaire And then what you have to do I think is you make a connection Between the existence of billionaires And the existence of those in poverty And you make the case for that I think By looking at the exploitation angle And the monopoly angle So when people have a monopoly They're able to artificially restrict Access to this thing that people need And keep the price up And so when they're controlling access To something like information Or something like steel Or something like land These are things that we all need To survive and to prosper We can't do without it So that's a fundamentally unjust relationship And then the second aspect with exploitation It's Jeff Bezos is rich Because his workers are kept poor And they are kept poor because of the wages That he chooses to give them And so that creates a society In which billionaires are the engines Themselves of poverty Not a solution to it That's what I would say To your sixth form class I hope they will be convinced Julia this is a question from FB Have you come across anyone working in the NHS Who actually supports the Tories? Well, I've found two so far I've been searching So I think one of the things I like to do Is try and work out what people think politically Because it's really interesting Right? And I have done my fair amount of asking And maybe it's because they already know my position That they're unwilling to admit But yeah, we've got two And I'll tell you about both of them I probably shouldn't do that But anyway One of them is literally a member Of the University Conservatives Association So I was like, ah He must have some pretty good arguments About why he's made this decision Nothing Absolutely no evidence Nothing Disappointing And the second was a guy who told me that He believed in democracy And Brexit means Brexit So in terms of NHS staff No, there's not a particularly Tory leaning stance Because obviously they have to live with the reality Of a government who chooses to underfund And reorganize a healthcare system In a way that doesn't work But obviously you always get a few people Who are unwilling to engage in informed debate Oh Ash Thoughts on Kamala Harris dropping out of the Democratic 2020 race Which I think happened just before we went live So Kamala Harris is out She's been polling atrociously And if you read an NYT piece On the internal dynamics of her campaign It's no surprise It seems like an absolute clown car in there So on the one hand You've got her sister running a huge amount of the campaign And then someone else Both of them are at log ahead So that's conflicting information And she decided to bank everything on Iowa And pour campaigning resources into Iowa The problem is Is that Because she was focusing on one little thing And because of the way in which the primaries work She'd taken her eye off in other states That she would need to at least scrape buy in Not looking likely The Iowa strategy is out But the other thing with Kamala Harris Is exactly who is her social base Because on a very superficial level Yes of course she reminds Democrats Of that kind of Obama moment Of a mixed race woman Who has worked as part of the criminal justice system She was a prosecutor Who could speak to America's sense of self As an accepting tolerant and multiracial society Without being frightening or radical And in the first debate When Biden was stumbling all over the place Trying to justify his earliest support For segregationist policies She was able to tell her life story in a way Which is very very compelling But moving on from that In particular when You know Medicare for all Is the central policy issue In the Democrat primaries And she doesn't have a tremendous amount to say for that And when in particular the young Democrat base Who are left leaning and also very diverse Are in favor of prison reform And policing reform For Kamala Harris to have that reputation As being very hawkish and authoritarian From her time in California Is that that never really was going to help her And also and this is a little detail from the NYT piece Apparently her campaign team were obsessed With what people were saying about her on Twitter So all of those like ultra leftists being like Kamala as a cop you did this Enjoy your victory Kamala Harris definitely suffered from running in I suppose a highly politicized time with no politics So I mean you could say about Buttigieg Who's sort of like now taking on the mantle As the centrist candidate You could say in a way that he's got no politics In a sense that he doesn't seem to be connected To any sort of like social base Although I mean he does have a social base With rich people But he does have a policy Which is to say you can't have a better world You know you have to be realistic And being realistic means accepting That you will have a privatized healthcare system Etc etc And you've got Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren Who were saying you can have a better world You can have Medicare for all And then there was Kamala Harris in the middle Sort of like maybe you can maybe you can Maybe I could just arrest your parents Shit there was actually I listened to it It was a very revealing interview with her On again and this was on the NYT podcast This was a few months ago Where they asked her you know like what What is the sort of political beliefs That guide you And she literally sort of said like oh none none Because she said no she was like You know I kind of I tend to just do what What works And then she told this really like Naft story about like car parking As sort of like her example of pragmatism It was sort of like whoa I don't think you can be the president If you don't have if like your answer was just about like Car parking I can't go on What are the what are the political values and principles Which guide you to Gone Me Is yours going to be none Ah Oh Oh no fuck off Sorry I don't know what to tell my guests to fuck off But I thought that was kind of like I thought that was kind of rude Oh my god All right the the political principles that guide me I would say that Well I mean as I say I'm a class I'm a class full social democrat I do think that we can have a better society If we have people who who organize against the establishment and elites And basically we can have democratic control Over significant parts of the economy So that we can all live the good life I like it thanks for giving me some time to think so you know Go for yours Um are you going to swear at me first No Because that's the That's the view Well you didn't insult her I can Go for it Go on go on As a kid I was always kind of brought with this idea that you know Society is reflected by how you care for those who have the least So I think that when I look at the UK today And I see a situation like you might have seen last night On channel four dispatches and something that I saw growing up Because I went to a really diverse state school Where I always recognized that I was quite lucky in that system Because I had this house and you know a stable family Like why in the sixth richest economy can't we all have that That's kind of my motivating factor in politics And also why do we allow people to govern without using any evidence So I'd say justice Evidence-based politics Evidence-based justice Evidence-based Evidence-based climate justice Ash go on What are you all for? I have to say none It's like when you're parking a car You can see a space that's just open I think fundamentally I don't think that misery should be part of any human's fate And when you see something as arbitrary as money dictating whether or not Someone is happy or someone is miserable You just think well this stupid thing should be out of the way Yeah And that is why she is literally a communist I mean there is a thing like life is already difficult enough Let's just like make people's lives a bit easier Don't don't unnecessarily make them homeless and shit Do you think that ultimately stomactically This is my sort of This is my left-wing version of Jordan Peters You know Jordan Peters is like life is suffering And you have to accept it entirely and you're like life is suffering So let's just make it really nice around the edges With a very well funded support at welfare state I actually don't think life is suffering Because I think once you eliminate poverty And once you get past this myth That economics is about the allocation of scarce resources No at present economics is about the imposition of scarcity on abundant resources Then the only thing keeping you miserable is your poor taste in men And that leaves you by the time you hit like 25, 26 That's fine All right let's end it there That's really good advice by the way That was a very nice way to end the show I think Talking about what all of our you know guiding principles are In any case thank you so much Julia Simons Thanks for having me You were brilliant You've gone down incredibly well in the comments Ash Sarka you always go down incredibly well in the comments I'm so sorry for assassinating you on your own damn show I know I'm my own nothing I can't believe that nothing In any case thank you so much for watching Tune in tomorrow at 8 p.m. For another edition of Tiskey Sour We will be live nightly until election night Well apart from the weekend Good night