 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. We're back. We're live. We're having a wonderful day. I'm Jay Fidel on Think Tech. We talked to Vic Kraft earlier about returning to the drafts. That was very interesting. We talked to Roger Epstein, a tax lawyer from Honolulu. He's in Washington now about the real deal and the Tax Reform Act. And now we're going to talk about art and community and more, okay, with Sean O'Hara. And he is the new director. I don't know how new you are. You're not so new. Yeah. Yeah. Nine and a few months. Yeah. Yeah. At the Honolulu Academy. Dog years. At the Honolulu Museum of Art. I said Academy was talking about that. The name changed. Yeah. What is the real name now, Sean? The Honolulu Museum of Art. Got it. Yeah. It's actually reflects the merger of the two museums, the Contemporary Museum of Honolulu and the Academy of Arts, the Honolulu Academy of Arts. But actually it was the original name, going back to the 1920s. Yeah. Fabulous. So you've had a kind of loop life. You've looped from Hawaii to the mainland. You've done some fabulous things in the mainland. Yep. What did you do in the mainland? Then you came back. So I left Honolulu as many local kids do. Probably never to look back again, you know, to sort of leave the rock. I was away for about 30 years. And I traveled throughout the mainland and then in Europe and the UK. And I'm lucky and fortunate enough to have the chance to come back home, which again, you know, I didn't know that was necessarily going to happen. And to run the institution that has had the biggest impact in my entire life. Wow. Particularly as a kid growing up. Yeah. Yeah. What happened that had that impact on you? Well, my parents wanted to get me out of the house. In the 60s and 70s, I always described daytime TV as a get-to-work scheme because it was just pretty awful stuff. So the first thing you did when you woke up was just get out. And there were a limited number of things to do. And my parents thought, well, we'll just get them into art lessons, get them in the music lessons. Get them out of the house. And my mother was the sort of type of mom who would show up five hours early to an airplane. So she would drop me off at the Art Academy for an 11 o'clock lesson at about 9 a.m. So I'd be wondering the hallways for a couple hours before that lesson. For that big time. Yeah. And then I have a father who's a UH professor. And so he's kind of late to everything. And so, you know, he'd pick me up at about, you know, he would end at about one and he'd pick me up at about 3.30, right? Perfect. So, you know, six hours I'd spend time in the Art Academy. And then when it came to choosing a major, really I thought to myself, gosh, what were the most wonderful days of my life? And I thought, well, you know, it was the Art Academy. So maybe that's what I should do for a living. You know, what can I do for 40 years of my life, you know? But part of that... Where were you a major? I was at Harvard as an art history major. And I'm very grateful to the Harvard Club of Hawaii because they sent me on a scholarship out there. And it just happened to be the furthest point in the United States away from my family. And you know, I could be on my own. I can finally see seasons and all the things that you read about which you never see as a kid in Hawaii. But I think the time spent on my own in the Art Academy was important because I taught myself. And if you know about education, you know that it's not about telling people the answer. It's about drawing the answer out of the student. And so for me, I wandered the Art Academy looking at the paintings. And I learned about female anatomy, for example. But I taught myself a lot of things. And it was a wonderful experience that, again, stuck with me throughout my career. And so this is why I'm here. Yeah. Oh, that's great. The prodigal son returns. Yeah. That's right. Something like that. So what do you think about actually in our society these days? This is not a small question. Well, I think art is incredibly important now that we've realized that there isn't one way of communicating. I think growing up, a lot of education was prescribed. And I think that there was one way to do mathematics. There was one way to interpret things. If you disagree with a professor, then you were wrong. I think now people have realized that there are many ways of viewing things. Many viewpoints, all equally valid, and many ways of communicating. And in schools now, the objective is to give students the opportunity to grow and learn and become productive members of society. And if you're only concentrating on a very mono-dimensional sort of approach, you're going to leave a lot of people out in the cold. So art and other creative forms of communication, I think, are essential in order to create a society that is more productive. Because you'll have students and people able to pursue things in the way they think most effective. And also a quality of life for the individual. Yes, and quality of life and quality of life for the people who experience what these people create. Yes. Now, I mean, really interesting because I don't think there's much art training going on in schools these days, am I right? Yeah, and there are a lot of reasons for that. I think No Child Left Behind was a program that helped reduce some of the art teaching. I think that it just had to do with budget cuts and concentration. Maybe an over-concentration on STEM, not fully realizing that STEM is only part of the discussion. You can't have sciences without being able to communicate or humanities or other ways of thinking. But the good thing is that, and it's obviously a two-edged sword, but with the rise of the internet and with other forms of digital communication, we found ourselves in an incredibly visual world, visual sound. We don't read these manuals anymore on equivalent of VCR as we watch videos, right? So I think that there is a slow realization that visual communication through sound is as important as any sort of alphanumeric communication that we've been concentrating on in the past. It's all art. It's all art. It's all communication. So, of course, you have various kinds of art at the museum and one of the kinds of art, of course, and I'd almost forgotten, is film. You show films on a regular basis. Yeah, one of our most popular programs at the museum. And this weekend is Zato Ichi, who was my idol when I was a kid, the blind swordsman. So, Minds Who, Minds Who, Zato Ichi. And this time he's going to meet your Jimbo because we've got Toshiro Mifune meeting as Zato Ichi. Fabulous. Yes. Fabulous. So where and when and how can I sign up and go? Well, it's happening at the Doris Duke Theater at the Harlem Museum of Art. And the schedule is online. And you can buy your tickets online even. And you just show up and, you know, hang on for the ride. That's great. I really want to see that because I really loved what he did. He was kind of an anti-hero, the wrong word. I mean, he was the hero's hero is what he was. He was disabled. Yes. And yet he could slice a fly in half without seeing him. That's right. That's right. That's right. Well, with a lot of humor as well. Yes. Right. Droll humor. Yeah. So, you know, let's talk about shows. Right now, you've organized a show involving Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko. Satorabe. Oh, wow. Decooning. Yep. Harry Succedana. Yeah. Yeah. It's world-class. World-class right here. Not a mile from where we're sitting. It is. It is. And our curator in charge of the exhibition, Teresa Pavaniklas, did a marvelous job working with all of her colleagues to create this. This is a profound show. It's exactly what we should be doing at the Hollywood Museum of Art. It's exactly what our population wants and needs and desires. Because what it is is it's an international level presentation. It brings an art from museums around the world, like the artists you were talking about, Jackson Pollock and Mark Rothko. But it also talks about the connection between those artists who promote themselves as being in a vacuum. I mean, they're from New York, right? So, they're the center of the universe. Yeah. And it connects them with the centuries-old tradition of abstract art in places like East Asia, particularly Japan. And then what it does is it also brings in the folks in Hawaii and the folks on the mainland, like on the West Coast, and it tells their story. And there is this connection and thread going through all of these art forms and art centers that we've never told. Because the canon, you know, the history focuses on specific centers. But they leave out other places like Hawaii. Yeah. I have to say that we haven't done ourselves much of a service by believing this canon and sort of downplaying our contributions. But this exhibition sort of raises that level of contribution and shows how profound a lot of our creative people here are. Yeah, they can put it together. So, how do you put together a show like this with such world-famous names? With a lot of effort and a lot of money. Hawaii, we have to ship everything in. So, it's logistically a very intensive operation. And we have to use our networks. You know, luckily we have professional staff with international connections. And so we're able to speak to our colleagues around the world and draw on those connections to bring art. And that's what museums do. Museums are interconnected. And so the only way that they can actually present any sort of major show like this is work with their colleagues in order to be able to present this material. So we call museums. And we trade art. I mean, we'll loan them something one year and they'll loan us something the next year. And this is all for the most part free, because that's what we do. It's a part of our mission. Between the museums. And you'll reciprocate it to the extent you can later. And it's back and forth. Yeah. We live in a time when art and science are, they have international networks and that's the best you can do to have an international network that will trade with you. Yeah. And you know, going back to the exhibition, the content exhibition, you know, the reason why those artists and particularly artists in Hawaii were so important was that they traveled the world. And they had these connections. And then they came back to Hawaii after many years of travel. And contributed to society here. So it was, it is all about networks. And being on an island, it's even more important. Yeah, it is. We were talking before the show began about David Koch. He was on 60 Minutes. Big Art Supporter. Big Art Supporter. And the show was not so much about his art, but about his wine. Where he had some bottles of Thomas Jefferson vintage wine that he was concerned about and felt they were fraudulent. So he spent $35 million chasing down the fraudsters. And he actually caught them. But what was interesting is... You guys money's worth? It's a relative term, yeah. So in the course of the show, you could walk through his house with him, David Koch, and you could see the Art of the Walls. It was all world-class art. It was a collection worth hundreds of millions, maybe billions of dollars right there in the wall. And I asked you, well, do we have any David Kochs living in Hawaii? Do we have any people with collections like that? Answer probably no. Well, there are many collectors. And from a museum's point of view, the value of the art doesn't really mean a lot. It's really about the significance of the artist's contribution. A lot of the local artists that we have in the show, their values pale in comparison to the Rothkos and the Klein's and so on in the show. But as far as we're concerned, they're equally important. And museums are quite well known for not placing value on the art. And part of that is because the markets go up and down. We're a forever institution, so we collect art and we hold on to it forever for the benefit of our society. That's the point I wanted to get to, is that you become the home of David Koch for us. In other words, if we want to see world-class art, we have a place. We can come and see it. We can come and see the museum. Yeah, and I think that's what perhaps is a misunderstanding about museums. Museums are for certain people or for people like the Koch brothers and so on. Really, a museum is a public institution. When Anna Rice Cook established the museum in the 20s, her mission was to take these great masterpieces of human creation and to share them with all the people. All about sharing. It's all about sharing. It's about education. It's about quality of life. It's about enjoyment. And a bit like, again, when I was a kid in the Art Academy, I was a kid from St. Louis Heights, but I was wandering the Art Academy and I could experience all these great impressionist paintings, all these great Japanese prints. Well, that goes to a question I really would like to ask you, and that is when I walk into the museum, this museum especially, and I want to have your kind of experience as a kid, what am I looking for? What are my sensory perceptions? What do I want to find there? What is my thought process for appreciating the art in a way that I can have a takeaway and carry it home? Well, one thing I would do is I wouldn't necessarily seek anything out. I wouldn't sort of predetermine a path. I would sort of follow one's nose and I would walk into any sort of gallery and I would try not to say, oh, I don't like this type of ceramic or this sort of artwork reminds me of my grandmother's house or that sort of thing. I really think that you should try to walk in and keep your mind totally open because the art on display at the Holy Museum of Art is some of the greatest artwork in the world. And so these artists who have something to say, they're the great philosophers of our civilization, have something profound to say. So I would just keep your mind open, go up to any artwork, look very carefully, and I would spend more than a few seconds that one normally spends in front of our work. I would try to spend several minutes looking at it and maybe even come back to it and spend another several minutes and try to build up as much time the more you look, the more you learn. And a lot of the great art is not obvious at first. Perhaps it's very complicated. So I would say give it a lot of time. People don't spend time looking anymore. And the great thing about Art Museum is we're the antidote to the digital illness. The ADD of society, we are that antidote and so spend the time and maybe don't look at the rest of the museum but look at one or two works of art and spend the afternoon. And the operative question would be what is this artist trying to communicate to me? That's right. And do you have to be right about that or can you have a difference of opinion with someone else? No, completely. In many cases there is a right answer because the artist does have an intention. But I would say that you need to take it in and you need to enjoy it and you need to understand it and that's what learning is all about. Yeah. Well, Sean, we're going to take a short break. We'll come back and what I'd like to talk about is how this extends to the community, how the art that you're doing extends to other forms of art in our state. This is really exciting discussion. I know it will be exciting. We'll be right back after the short break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. We have this crazy thing going on today. I was just walking by and all these DJs and producers are set up all around the city. I just walked by and I said, what's happening, guys? They told me they were making music. I had no musical talent and then sat down and kind of played. So we do it. We are back. We are here. We are ruminating and learning. We certainly are. Sean O'Hara. He's the director of the Honolulu Art Museum. And where we left this very interesting discussion is the extension of the art in that museum to other forms of art in the state, where it is, where it can go, and how do we get there? Big question. Yeah. I mean, we're, as some people referred to us, a rock in the middle of the Pacific, where the most isolated and inhabited landmass on the planet. So we have some natural advantages, but we have some natural disadvantages. So fostering and developing artists and art communities in our society is a challenge. But we have a wealth of talent and diversity and opinion and viewpoints in our population. And I think that's unique, perhaps, in the United States, if not the world. Yeah. And really extraordinary. And there's a human capital, human resource capital kind of thing there that sometimes we don't recognize. Yeah. I've been, in the past, I've been on the tourist boards of other cities and people recognize that the cultural tourist, if we can talk about tourism or economic development, for example, spends approximately seven times as much as the normal tourist. The tourist says, maybe they're there for the weather. So there's a huge opportunity, as climate changes, as we lose our unique advantage over other places, maybe price-wise, maybe weather-wise even. I think that what we can really fall back on, and I think we should, is our human capital, who we are as a people. And we have this cultural advantage. People know about the culture here in Hawaii and they will come for the food and they'll come for the music and they'll come for the art. And that's something that will never go away. We'll only get better. And so I think that, I'm a big person for planning and looking ahead because I think it makes life easier. But as we look ahead and we see where are we going to be 20 years from now, particularly with, as I say, environmental changes and so on, I think that our people are really the asset that we have to rely on. And like I said, I think we are very different from other places and we have a natural advantage in some cases and I think we should take advantage of that. Now you've been involved, and I hope you'll be involved on a continuing, increasing basis in an attempt to bring the arts together. And that's really important. We need that. We can't be silo on that because together we are much more than we are individually. Well, as we say, we're all in the same canoe. We should all paddle in the same direction. And I think the sort of, either the internal competition model or the infighting doesn't necessarily work when you're on an isolated landmass with limited resources and limited options. I mean, again, you know, we have a unique position and planning out ahead, I think all the organizations need to work together. What would you plan? Well, let's just say that, as I mentioned before, we need to emphasize our natural advantages and our culture is one of our natural advantages here. Our diversity of culture and our interesting and multi-dimensional aspect. And I think the various arts organizations, if they work together to create a long-range plan, they can then approach other leaders in the community to understand that plan and to sort of create another plan for the state and our population 20 years from now. Again, you can only have a map, you can only have a road map if you know where you're going. And I'm not exactly sure if we know where we're going. There is a point, and the reason why I said we have limited options is there is a point where we'll run out of land, water, all sorts of things. So what is that capacity? And if we reach that capacity, then what do we have? So the idea really is, what sort of society do we want to create? And the cultural organizations, because they center on human creativity and really the creativity of our people, they have to lead that discussion. And I say it's a discussion because it's not that these organizations are going to tell people what to do. Ultimately, these organizations need to be relevant and they're going to be relevant by reflecting the needs and desires of the people. Better society, better relations with people, better quality of life individually. Yes. But let me ask you this. I get a couple of factors in here. One is we can attract people, tourists, including cultural tourists. The other thing is, do we want to attract them with what we bring in or what we create? Because you suggest that we have a lot of creativity, we have a lot of possibilities to express our culture and our creativity. Where's the focus in the plan? Where's the focus there? I think that we have to have both because you can't foster creativity and evoke creativity here in a vacuum. You have to bring in knowledge from the outside. You need our people here to travel, to see new ideas, new solutions, and then come back and bring them back here. We are very good at shipping out our young population, never to see them again. Yeah, sure. We almost lost you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would say that all my classmates have not come back, really. At least the ones that are left, they're pursuing careers around the world. Coming back is not an easy option for them. But they have a knowledge because they have a knowledge of the local scene and then they have a knowledge of the outside world. And the artists in the exhibition, Satura Abe, for example, and Harry Tsuchidana, these were two artists who left their home in Honolulu and ended up in New York City traveling around and learning and learning from artists and getting degrees and education and winning awards and then coming back. And the only way that I think we can develop our society is by bringing in new knowledge and new ideas. Let it breathe. And best practice. You can't focus down on one small culture point. You have to let it breathe in terms of the world process. Right. And then what you have is, then you have people here who start creating things because they bring in new ideas. Yeah. And then, of course, people from the outside will come and look at these new ideas. So we become a center. Yes, and we can be because we have such a diverse population. And so people will naturally go to all four corners of the earth versus just moving to one area or another. So we have influences from Japan and from Southeast Asia and from California and from Europe and from Africa and South America. Just in our population alone. It makes it even richer that way. It does. And you can see it in the food that we offer. Sure. Yeah. It's the plate lunch approach to culture. So the last question I want to pose to you is, how do we get there? Accepting everything you said, and I totally agree with it. And making a plan that goes off in the future and connects up art and makes an art community, a world-class art community that will bring people here and give us greater satisfaction, cohesiveness as a community, engaged in intellectual pursuits like that. How do we get there? It's not easy because you have to train kids. We're not training them enough. I know that's got to be part of the plan. Well, I'll go back to what I said about planning. I think you have to understand where you need to be and you have to plan out a generation ahead. So I'm talking, you know, 20 years, 25 years ahead. I think that you have to be incredibly realistic with the challenges. You know, we can't be shy, hizakashi or anything like that. We have to, you know, say, look, we have limits where we are. You know, shipping is expensive. Bringing people here is expensive. Having people go out. So what are the challenges involved in that? And, you know, once we understand that, and we're not, again, I have to say that growing up in Hawaii, we didn't really worry a lot about much when I was young because, you know, the days are always nice. You never get lost. You know, food falls on your head. You know, clothing is optional. You know, that kind of thing. So, you know, tomorrow will always be fine, right? But I think that, you know, now that we see with global climate change and economic things, we can see that the world doesn't stand still. And if we're not moving ahead at a good pace, we're not even going to catch up. So I think it's important that we have these long-range plans. I also think it's important that we all work together, that we're not all in our little silos communicating with ourselves and not coordinating things because it's a waste of resources. We don't have that many resources being an island. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to compete with each other and, you know, it's probable that our vision is similar, you know, in 20 years from now because we have limited choices. So I think that really it's going to require the state of Hawaii to have a vision to know what it wants to be when it grows up. It needs to have all the arts organizations, for example, coordinated amongst themselves. They have to coordinate with the education system, which is the lifeblood of our society. We have to work with the business community. So it's really about coming up with a master plan, which I know is a pretty, you know, remote possibility in some ways. But it's actually the only way you're going to get there. And solving major problems are not going to happen overnight. And the worst thing is the election cycles are so quick. So thinking 20 years out is not necessarily in the interest, the best interest of some, you know, certain leaders. But really it has to be. And I have faith in our people because we always plan out, in many ways, we think about multi-generations. People are now living longer. So you literally have three, four generations living together. You know, the answer is in front of our eyes. We just have to come to the realization that this sort of planning and coordination is important. So what role do you hope to play? What role do you think the art museum should play? Well, I think that being able to foster discussion and to be able to maybe marshal both interests and resources would be helpful. We are one of the largest, if not the largest sort of cultural organization behind in the state. And so we have the responsibility of working with other organizations to make sure that everyone has their say. You know, the other day it's not about being right. It's about getting it right, you know? And so, you know, to make as informed a decision as possible by having other organizations involved is important. I kind of joke that, you know, in Hawaii the answer is to unionize. But it is kind of that. It's really getting those groups together to also form a critical mass. So then when we speak to the leaders of other areas, then they're listening to us because we have a certain authority. Well, I hope we can discuss this further, Sean. I hope you treat this as a... This isn't a three-hour conversation. No, no. But it's very kind of compressed. And I hope you'll come back and I hope we can have this conversation again and again at this table. I look forward to it. Thank you, Sean. Yes, thank you so much. Sean Harrow, director of the Art Museum, the Art Museum, great to have you on the show. Great to have you. Thank you. Thank you so much.