 Good afternoon and thanks for joining us for the CNBC Africa debate coming to you live from Davos, Switzerland where the World Economic Forum is currently in session. For the next 60 minutes we focus on achieving Africa's growth agenda, and that's against a backdrop of slower growth among the continent's top trading partners and of course falling commodity prices. Joining me for what promises to be a robust debate, Jacob Zuma, president of South Africa. Paul Kagami, president of the Republic of Rwanda, Oscar Onyama, CEO of the Nigerian Stock Exchange. John Cumanteros, whose chairman, Flower Mills of Nigeria, PLC, and Sunil Bhati, Mital founder and chairman of Bhati Enterprises India. Thank you so much for your time, gentlemen. President Zuma, if I could start with my first question, sir, and I think before we consider achieving Africa's growth agenda and attracting the relevant investment into Africa, we need to deal with the issue of safety and security. The global headlines we know have been dominated by Ebola. They have been dominated by terror attacks in Nigeria and in the West by Boko Haram. In fact, these are ongoing as we speak and al-Shabab terror attacks in East Africa. If the continent is not stable, nobody is going to want to put their money with us. And that, sir, is my first question. Is it just the perception fueled by journalists or is it the reality? Well, I'm sure we all know that Africa has faced a lot of challenges historically and we still face challenges. But of course, the challenges are in the continent, in some part of the continent, and they do affect the entire continent. The issue of the security, we believe that over the years we have reduced the areas of conflict in the continent. It's unlike what it was before. There are issues that have arisen since the fall of Gaddafi in particular because that tended to undermine the security in the northern part of Africa. And what, for an example, is seen as Boko Haram is part of what happened there. We had our own way of how to handle change in Nigeria, sorry, in Libya. But unfortunately, the big countries thought they had their own way, which then helped a very negative situation to reverse the gains that we had made. So we are in the process now of working out ways and means of dealing with that issue. I wouldn't want that Boko Haram is taken as an isolated thing. It actually arises of the security that was undermined by the manner in which we handled Libya, and we are dealing with it. We are reviving, for an example, the ad hoc committee of the heads of states that were dealing with the road map with regard to that, and therefore the EU is taking up the matter. So the matter is being taken into consideration, as well as Boko Haram in Nigeria. We are looking at it, the summit is meeting in a matter of few weeks. We'll be handling those matters of security. President Zuma, would you say the continent is stable, in your opinion? The continent is relatively stable, that is our view. President Kagami, can I get you to weigh in with your thoughts? Perception or reality from a security-safety perspective? Well, inevitable on many things, you find reality and perception cross paths, in a sense, until you go to find the details. Then you are about to sort out which is a reality and which is a perception. In this case, of Africa, the reality is Africa is largely stable, and also has some problems of insecurity in different parts of the continent. There's no doubt about that. The issue of perception comes in when maybe some level of exaggeration or misinterpretation of certain situations come in. So here we are talking about reality, and like any other situation, there are going to be matters of reality and matters of perception. But we have to deal with these issues nonetheless. Of course, for Africa to grow and continue to develop and reach the prosperity that we deserve and want, we have to start from this very basic principle that there has to be stability. And where there are problems of insecurity, of conflict, we have, as President Zuma has said, we have to get together, collaborate and make sure that we sort out most of these problems. They will be there, but they should not derail Africa's journey to development and to stability that allows that development to take place. Oscar, picking up on what President Kagami has just said, do you think that Africa is in jeopardy of having its development derailed considering? And I want to throw in here not just the terror, but coming back to Ebola. And pandemics of that nature. Certainly, we cannot downplay the how critical these issues are. But looking at it from an investment perspective, I really believe that as you consider which countries you're going to allocate your resources to, there are so many things you check off in terms of risk, right? And security is one of them. It's not isolated to Africa only. Certainly, you want to make sure that anywhere you're putting your money in Europe, in the U.S., in Asia, that your assets are safe. Now, coming back to Africa, most of these challenges that we're facing are quite isolated in isolated pockets. And those pockets are not necessarily the geographies that drive African economy. And so you have to look at it from that perspective. I believe there is a risk, but the risk is not as big as we're trying to make it out to be. I'm not trying to make it up to me, but I am saying that foreign direct investors look at Africa and paint it with one brush. That's the reality that we potentially dealing with on the ground. John, let me bring you in here. You are the number one food and agro allied company in Nigeria. What are you seeing on the ground in terms of your operations? Well, let me speak first as a foreign direct investor. We had to shut our mill down in Maiduguri, but we have 2,000 people in Kano. We're building a snack line there, a noodle line there. We have a $250 million investment in Niger State for a sugar plantation and sugar mill. So certainly in the northeastern region, the people and life is very severely impacted. And, you know, the life in the northeast is under siege, but we are not stopping our investments anywhere else in Nigeria. We're moving full on, full force forward. And don't forget these terrorist attacks are aimed at trying to disrupt people's lives and livelihoods. And I don't think we have to give into that. So I think a foreign direct investment is full steam ahead. I'd like to say that, you know, to the extent that there is external influences, foreign fighters or border crossings, then perhaps these things in relation to Boko Haram should be brought in a more regional context. It should be addressed perhaps with regional help as a regional issue. And to the extent it's related to social inequalities or perceived social inequalities or existing social inequalities, the answer to that is really building the economy, building the agro-allied sector, building the agro sector. And that's really the underlying root cause of all the issues. So I worry specifically more about the oil pandemic. And I think actually in the oil pandemic is where we're going to find a lot of the solutions to what we're looking for, because it's going to force us to go backwards, produce value locally, get value for our crops, get value for our processing, produce the food that we eat, and that's going to create jobs locally, which is going to strike at the heart cause of the issue. We're going to spend a lot of time on commodities, the pressure, the impact that we're seeing on that front and how it's impacting Africa's growth story. Sunil, I want you to stay with the issue at hand right now again and get you to come in as a foreign direct investor. Seventeen countries you are invested in across the African country. You're a co-chair of the World Economic Forum on Africa, which was held in May 2014 in Abudjan, Nigeria. There, sir, you were quoted as saying that you were going to invest a billion dollars on an annual basis into your African operations. Given the current scenario, is that commitment still there? Yes, and once you are in Africa, you're in Africa. You just don't withdraw yourself. And I come from India and we have seen long conflicts in some parts of a country. Punjab has had where I belong to ten years of major issues around terrorism, which thankfully got resolved. Kashmir has seen two decades of strife. Investments have to be made. You have to continue to do the investments. And I would tend to agree a bit with President Zuma. Sometimes the optics created through largely foreign media could be scary. But on the ground, things are not that bad. Yes, north parts of Nigeria are a bit of bother. It's hard to send experts into those areas. There's a stress of Boko Haram. Many of our sites are dismantled or blown apart many times. A couple of our offices have been under attack. But you stay determined on course. And yes, we are spending a billion dollars and perhaps a little more. And I would say 10 years of peace dividend that Africa has enjoyed prior to, let's say, one year brought in a lot of investments and a lot of investors gone with the days when Africa was depended on World Bank and IFC and you started seeing a lot of capital flowing from the private sector. All those MNCs and foreign investors are in Africa now across the continent. And there are some geographical disparities in some sense. Some places have got much more capital than the others. And I think that's the function of what you say, a stable regime, a terror free environment to work. And of course ease of doing business. If you look at Rwanda, they were already doing very well on the charts of ease of doing business. In the last year, they moved another 20 notches up to 46. So there are very good pockets which are inviting more and more investments. And yes, places like Yemen and South Sudan will start falling behind if they don't pick up their environment to operate as businessmen. Yes, we want peaceful environment. That is the best time for people to make investments. But small pockets of terrorism should not scare serious investors away. So it seems that consensus has been achieved. President Zuma, President Kagami ask your voice also into this. And John then reiterated by Sunil that the perception is being made to be more dramatic than the reality on the ground. Then gentlemen, we have a lot of work to do as brand Africa and a lot of work to do with the international media. The next point goes now to growth and to achieving Africa's growth agenda. The World Bank recently released a report saying that Africa is expected to grow by 5.2 percent in 2015 and 2016 and to grow by 5.3 percent beyond that for the medium term. President Zuma, as a South African citizen, I don't want to ask you the following question. As a journalist, I have to ask you the following question. South Africa is unfortunately the drag to that overall growth story. We were looking at growth of 1.4 percent in 2014, expecting growth of around about 2.2 percent come 2015. I know, sir, with the National Development Plan, we are targeting growth to hit 5 percent in South Africa by 2019. But it must be a difficult pull to swallow that South Africa is the dampener to that bright African story at the moment. Yes, absolutely so. But I think it is important when you look at South Africa, not to clump it with other countries. You know, 20 years ago, South Africa was something else. And we are dealing with that legacy. Partly. We are not like countries that have been developing all the time. But I think we are doing our best to deal with the legacy, but also expand the economic situation in the country. We are putting infrastructure very massively. We have a plan, as you have just referred to. We are dealing with energy as a specific area to grow the economy. So from our point of view, we understand why we are where we are, but we are doing everything to quicken the pace to move forward. And that is a positive mood that our country has. And we've got plans to do so. So from our point of view, we think our being a country that is not growing so fast, we understand why we are doing everything to ensure that we catch up. So that is the mood. And South Africa is a very open country for investment. And it is a destination for investment. And we are very, we are very ready to take the challenges and we have been tackling the challenge in the last 20 years. President Kagami Rwandan, GDP growth is sitting at 6 per cent for 2014. Looking expected to come in at six and a half per cent for 2015 and recovering from a very low base of 4.6 per cent in 2013 when you had an issue with a foreign aid that was temporarily suspended. We'll go into that issue a little later and how you recovered from it. But with the task at hand, major economic trading partners of yours and the rest of Africa are experiencing slower growth. Here I'm talking about the Eurozone and China. I know the US plays a very big part in your life. And there we know the situation is much better than in the other geographies that I've referred to. How are you adjusting your economic policies to allow for that changing global environment or global context? Right. First of all, last year, 2014, we actually saw we found we had the growth of 6.8 per cent. In fact, it is projected to be beyond seven. This year, 2015. So the trend is good. I stand corrected. I've got comparative stats on GDP. So we will... Fine. The difference is very small. I'm just making improvement. But most importantly, the question you are raising all along our economy and mainly looking at it in the context even of the region that is increasingly integrating but also looking beyond to what is happening elsewhere in the world has been structured, the economy has been structured in a way that it takes care of the adjustments that are likely to happen because of uncertainties that will always be there and have always been there in the world. And we are seeing indeed when we look at the low prices and continuing to go down in terms of commodities, we will understand that in fact, one has not been mainly growing because of commodities. And in fact, largely in Africa, the myth that Africa has been growing just because of commodities, especially when you look at oil and other things is not very true because you find at the top African countries that have been growing very fast have not mainly if you look at Ethiopia, if you look at Rwanda, if you look at a couple of others, it hasn't been just because of commodities. It has been either in manufacturing, financial services, in large things and so on and so forth. So this is where we have continued to concentrate our efforts as well as behind that, building the capacities necessary in our people, investing more in health, in education, in skills development and so on and so forth. So this and then benefiting from the integration I was talking about when you see the East African community as a whole, five countries, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Burund and ourselves, actually this geographical space of Africa is continuing to grow and benefiting from tying together our economies in terms of trade and investment within and also putting in place the necessary conditions for business to take place, starting from there and then working with the rest of the continent and beyond. Oscar, let's come to you and how we attract our fair share of foreign direct investment in this changed global context. I know that your job at the head of Nigeria Stock Exchange has been a relatively tough one of late with foreigners and foreign investment heading for the hills, so to speak, given the pressure on the oil price and the uncertainty ahead of the Nigerian election come February. But you have stated that you want to make the Nigerian Stock Exchange the exchange for entrepreneurs and attract foreign direct investment. Can you elaborate on those plans? Thank you. I would differentiate between foreign direct investment and foreign portfolio investment. I believe that last year or 2013, Africa got about 57 billion US dollars in foreign direct investment, so investment inflows. That is a record amount and it continues to grow and it just shows the confidence that the investment investment community has in Africa. And that confidence is not misplaced because if you look back 10 years, most of the African economies have been growing and they're growing because of better policies, policies that have been designed to diversify the economies of the African countries. Granted, we're all very different. If you take Nigeria, for example, with the rebasing of our GDP, not only did we realize that we've become the biggest economy in Africa, but we also realized that our economy is highly diversified. Crude oil accounts for only 14 percent of that. And the growth that we've seen over the last 10 years has really been driven by the non-oil sector. So coming huge growth again to come to the financial services, financial services, telecom, the entertainment industry. So non-oil sector basically has really driven that growth. For us, the challenge that has changed with regards to foreign portfolio investments is really foreign investors needing to manage their currency risk as a result of commodity prices, taking a big bit in lately. And I believe that as they get more certainty as to where currency rates will be, given stability in oil prices, you will see them come back into the markets. We have to understand that there used to be a very significant correlation between commodity prices and the African economies. Given these diversifications we've seen, we haven't seen any African country talk about recession. We're seeing people talk about growth slowing down. If you look back 10 years, you know, this is not the first time we're seeing oil price shocks, right, 87, 97, 2007. You'd have been talking about going into a recession. So the economies are better managed and they are certainly reflected in the confidence we've seen with investors. And I believe that for the Nigerian scene, you have an election cycle coming through. You have the security situation that you've talked about. You have fiscal and monetary policy that people are also watching in order to make those investment decisions. So you have uncertainties that as I believe they go away in this first half, and as you go into the second half of the year, those uncertainties, we should have clarity and you should see investors take positions. So Neil, how are you managing the currency risk that Oscar refers to? Of course, we've seen depreciating units across Africa. The Nigerian unit, the Naira, is under pressure at the moment. I think that's an area to worry about. And for foreign investors, that's a serious risk that one takes going into a new place, a continent like Africa. For a long period, nearly four or five years, we were quite surprised at the stability of the currency. In fact, rupee depreciated in India, but we saw most of the African currencies holding ground. And then suddenly the whole situation changed. We saw massive depreciation in Malawi, 18 months back. But it's a small market, so one could deal with that. And then followed by Ghana, where the shady just sort of lost 30 percent within no time. And last few months have been horrible for Naira. And you are investing large amounts of money. When we look at the performance of our various country operations on local currency basis, they're doing reasonably well. 10, 11, 12 percent growth is still year on year. But when you start translating them into dollars, you kind of standing still. You are the same place. You're running on a treadmill and you're not moving forward. That is a frustration because at the end of the day, after four or five years of hard work and very difficult work of building an infrastructure in difficult places, you are standing still. You're still at 4.6, 4.7 billion dollars, whereas by now you should have crossed 6 billion dollars. So that frustration remains. And I think no country can insulate you against currency risks. And oil pressure has been one of the major challenges. And the other part is commodity prices. Global commodity prices have been soft for the last few years. And the prediction from most of the experts is that you're not going to see a phenomenal change in the next two or three years, which means two of the resilient pieces on which Africa's growth is sustainable is under threat, commodities and oil. So hardcore extractive industries are under threat in terms of low demand. And on the other hand, the financial aid from Europe is getting drying up, getting slow, because they have their own difficulties. So there is an overall pressure. The Africa story, which was looking like heading towards eight or nine percent, is suddenly getting challenged at maybe even towards five percent. And that for a country or continent which has to come out of poverty, has to fix health problems, education problems is a sign of worry. You've also made the point previously that strong leadership is needed across the African continent to navigate these somewhat choppy waters. Do you think we're seeing that leadership? You see in different parts. You saw very strong growth in places like Rwanda, which is an outlier clearly. Sub-Saharan Africa this year will grow at five point seven five percent. And some countries will be at seven percent. If South Africa was to pull its weight, as you just mentioned, you could look at it even more healthy of growth because it's a very large piece of that economy. There are parts of Africa which are disturbing. We saw Burkina Faso have had major issues. There's going to be some stability, which will take some time to come there. Three countries are going into elections, Nigeria, Zambia and Kodewa. There are all three elections, which are pretty imminent now. One has to see what the outcome is going to be. Yet you see pockets of great stability. Many parts of eastern Africa, even some of the Francophone countries are OK. So without naming any countries, I think you see the difference between strong leadership, resulting in very good economic uplift and investments. President Zuma, if you can come in, so on your view of leadership across the African continent. Well, firstly, I'm very happy that the investors, they are saying they are pockets and they are not painting Africa with the big brush because I think that is important. If you look at one country where there is instability and then you believe that the whole of Africa is unstable, is a mistaken thing, is part of a perception. I think there is a very strong leadership in the continent of Africa, generally. Even in the countries where there are pockets of instability, I think Africa is discussing those matters collectively. For an example, if you take the security issue where there are pockets of instability, Africa has decided to take this matter to its hands. We are in the process of finalizing the immediate reaction force that will be controlled and financed by Africa itself so that where there is instability, Africa under the AU leadership will move into that area to deal with that matter. It's no longer like if it happens in one area as the end of it. I think we have an example in East Africa where EGAD, the region of East Africa, went into Somali and really dealt with the problem in Somali and began to bring about stability and the government there. I think that is an indication of the African initiative implementing this belief that African problems should have African solutions. And therefore that in itself is not just showing individual kind of leadership, even the collective leadership in Africa. I think it has taken a qualitative change in terms of how are we tackling the issues, including our activities insofar as the economy is concerned. The fact that heads of states are heading certain section of the infrastructure, it indicates Africa that is thinking differently. Again, strong leadership that is being given. I think that in itself indicates that there is strong leadership in the continent. We are moving forward. The very fact that we have had a decade of growth and many countries growing so big, it indicates that Africa has changed. That would not have happened without a strong leadership. President Kagami, on the point of leadership, your leadership has been attributed with much of Rwanda's economic re-emergence and for the last decade hitting that 7% GDP growth rate. Your second term comes to an end in 2017. Can investors look to continued economic stability and investor-friendly policies out of Rwanda come that time? Well, I think as we are talking about leadership, I think it was just said, leadership is in a general sense for when we are talking about Africa, as we see there is no country that is an island. There is many linkages between countries across the continent and even the continent and beyond. And in fact, even the earlier problems we were talking about in security, some things are happening in Africa, but we finally have a connection in Europe or beyond and in other places. So there is always this connection. So leadership is about the same. So leadership in Rwanda, as you have said, has been built on a number of bases, if you will. It's not just individuals, it's also institution. And that's what we have tried to do as we invest for our future. But now, here I'm probably being asked to make a prediction whether two, three years or five years ahead, how things will be here. I have no reason to believe that things are going to be any different. In my country, in another five or 10 years to come, and here we are talking about leadership minus the person we are talking about. So I think the investors who have interacted with us in Rwanda and others, they must have appreciated the stability we have created in the country, dependent on many things with that target leadership. So we keep grappling with what defines the good leadership that we see the continued development in the country. And we also look to working with other countries to make sure that continued growth happens. John, Nigeria Flammals has been in Nigeria. Flammals, Nigeria rather has been in Nigeria since 1961. Over the last five years, you have invested a billion dollars, US. And the next four years, you're going to invest a billion dollars. How important is leadership in that investment game for you? I think leadership is very important. And it shows our confidence that we are investing that kind of money. I'd like to touch on what President Kagami said earlier. You know, if you understand the growth rates in Africa, Nigeria, 3% population growth every year. 60% of the population is under 30. Those fundamental facts are not shifting. Those people will continue, the population will continue to grow. People will need to eat, they will need to go about their life. So there's a fundamental underlying growth in Africa, in Nigeria, which is not related to commodity boom or bus cycle. So when we talk about the commodities, it just then becomes a question of how we fund that growth. It's resource allocation towards that growth that we're talking about. We're not talking about the underlying growth of the nation is going to continue to populations going to grow. 2050, Nigeria is going to be as big as the United States. So I think a lot of the policies that are in place in backward integration in Nigeria, the cement industry, the salt, sugar industry, rice is coming on stream, palm, cassava, all these backward integration policies, which say, you know, you wish to continue to import things. Well, you have to invest in the country to grow it, process it locally. We need to really integrate the countryside with the urban sector. The urban sector, the middle class is growing tremendously. We can't leave the rest of the nation behind. So I think, you know, those policies consistent over time because these things do take time. You don't turn a switch on and things happen are fundamental to the ongoing growth of Nigeria. Again, you've previously said that infrastructure in your opinion is the single biggest risk to the Africa growth story. In fact, you were quoted as saying, African governments should go for broke when it comes to investing in hard infrastructure. Can you elaborate? Yes, to my mind, the multiplier impact that the infrastructure projects have on any economy, and we experienced that in our own country in India, is enormous. And to my mind, back borrowed steel, Africa needs to build infrastructure. And in the absence of infrastructure, you are actually losing a lot of GDP growth there. Look at the intra-Africa trade. It's at 9% of the overall trade. That needs to rise. That's given all the benefits that just have been touted of manufacturing within Nigeria, manufacturing within various places, industries that are in South Africa. Why should a cashew kernel get out of Guinea-Bissau, go to India, the coastal, Kerala, get processed back into being cashews and then get back to Africa or other parts of the world? You need to have much more alignment within Africa. And AU, the Africa Union, needs to start discussing less-created, massive infrastructure, linkages within the countries on roads, highways, train, wherever possible around the coastal areas, through boats and ferries and all. You need to link the continent to a massive infrastructure build-out. And to my mind, if you want to see Africa growing and breaking out free from its current difficulties, I think infrastructure will hold the key. And that is where I would say even the so-called development investment or aid needs to be focused towards. Build infrastructure, rest will follow. And we've seen that in China, they built massive infrastructure and that was the difference between India and China. They went for broke for infrastructure and rest followed. And I believe that is very important. Thankfully telecom piece, we've been able to fix to a large degree. You can go to very remote parts of Africa now and you'll find a radio signal. Let's use that as a digital infrastructure to then build on some other pieces of infrastructure to get the full benefit of African economy miraculously. Oscar, as president of African exchanges, this must also be something which is high on your wish list in terms of connecting Africa exchanges and the impact that that will ultimately have on the economy. Yeah, totally agree. I believe that we have to look at infrastructure as infrastructure. It doesn't matter whether it's hard or soft. The exchanges, for example, at least the key hubs need to be linked so that when investors are coming in, they are viewing a deeper pool of liquidity versus small pools because it's not very attractive to want to put large sums of monies in very small pools. And so that should go for financing not only in the capital markets, but even with our banks because access to capital is one of the biggest challenges businesses have in Africa. And so to the extent that we can link ourselves and a farmer that is looking to raise capital for the next cropping season can access that capital not only in this country, but countries around, it could be very powerful. President Kagami, let's just focus for a moment on the reliance on official development assistance. I come back to the point that I made earlier that in 2013, development aid, or aid was suspended to Rwanda allegations that Rwanda was fueling insecurity in the DRC. This was never proved and that aid was once more instituted. But in 2013, and according to my figures again, they may not be in line with yours, but like for like, you sat at a 4.6% growth rate. So a big fall off from your previous decade of around about 7%. As a result, you have very quickly moved to limit your exposure to foreign aid to help you insulate yourself against shocks on that front. Can you tell us how you've done that? Because again, your growth rates, obviously that aid was reinstituted, but you're now sitting with aid at about 40% of your budget. Yes, first of all, it starts with the original objective. For us, how we have used development aid is to enable us to build capacities we require so that we don't need aid in the long term or medium long term. This is really what we have concentrated on. Not to keep depending on the aid as such. So we've been transitioning, therefore, from this development aid to investment aid. So we've concentrated on what is it that attracts investment, and particularly for the case of Rwanda with its own space histories. And this is why we have concentrated. We have also concentrated on doing business. What is it that attracts people to do business in or with Rwanda? And that goes beyond Rwanda and touches, as I said, in the broader sense, the area of integration. But as we have been building these capacities, therefore, we've been identifying revenue sources that we can depend on, that we have control over other than revenue sources over which we have no control at all. So the transition has been accelerated, in fact, by maybe some of these problems. I think some of these problems come with the silver lining, in a sense. Sometimes you don't invite problems, but when they come, they also come with these silver linings. So we are not saying that we are over with needing aid at all. No, we're only saying we can survive with less aid now than we would have survived the other day because of, one, investing properly in the development aid, two, meaning building capacities, two, identifying these other areas that actually can constitute revenue generation beyond what we get from aid. And that is what we can do from within and also what we can do as a region and beyond. And then the areas of infrastructure has been said that we're not going to be overstated and so on and so forth. So this is really how we have continued to move forward. And perhaps just to put a little context around there in terms of the World Bank's ease of business index or ease of doing business index. Rwanda sits in number three spot when it comes to the African continent, Mauritius being number one and South Africa being number two, President Jacob Zuma. Your thoughts on this shift as we come to the expiry of the Millennium Development Goals in September 2015 from development aid or official development assistance to development investment. What is South Africa doing to capture development investment? Well, we hold the same view that firstly it's necessary that the aid should shift to investment. That helps the countries really to stand on their own and be able to move forward. And we believe that that should be the understanding of those who give aid. I think the example of Africa having developed they have been developing the way it has been. It is partly because Africa I think has been receiving more aid than perhaps other regions of the world. I think that is evidence that there has been very careful usage of it as President Kagama has been saying that it has been used to help propel the economy and therefore with time you would actually stand on our own as the African countries. I think that's an approach we have taken that we need that understanding. Again it comes back to the kind of leadership, how this is being utilized now different than what it was a few years or a number of years ago that the leadership is looking at how we utilize what we get for our tomorrow. But I also wanted to touch on the issues that were touched upon on the infrastructure. I think I touched on this point earlier. The reality is that the leadership, the collective leadership in the continent has taken a decision about infrastructure. And there are processes that are ongoing. We are, it's not just, we are still planning. In some regions actual work is going on because we realized that without dealing with that issue which is again a legacy of colonialism that did not connect countries. If we don't have inter trade, we don't soften our borders, we don't increase the economy among ourselves. We are not going to succeed. That is why the matter of integration of the regions is an ongoing issue. Three regions are now working to integrate and putting together a huge area where in the trade is going to be free among them with a huge population and really going verifying in terms of how much Africa is organizing self-economically as a continent. I think that goes a long way to explain how much the current leadership is thinking. President Zuma, I'm glad you bring up a collective leadership across Africa because it brings me to another point in that we understand that there were diplomatic tensions between Rwanda and South Africa 2014. This is not the forum to discuss those but what I am interested in understanding is whether it has had any bearing or impact on economic cooperation between the two countries. Of course that economic cooperation, as you say, with collective leadership is crucial for the overall Africa investment story. Your thoughts, sir? No, I don't think it has affected our relations, not at all. I think there were some small issues that were there that had been handled by the two countries. In so far as interaction between the countries is very big, it has not interfered with that. We have a lot of students from Rwanda that are in South Africa. There is consistent interaction between the two countries so that has not affected the relations between the two countries, including between the two ruling parties. President Kagami? I suppose I should have asked this question before I sat you next to one another when we began the debate. Please come in here, sir. Well, I think this is the proof that things are doing fine. But even if we were to talk about the perception, because the fact that you raise it, if it is a relative or a perception, but let me even say, even if it was perception, maybe it shouldn't have happened. So this is what I can say. We don't need it, and in particular, we don't need it for when we talk about working very closely and advancing together and so on and so forth. So I'm just saying, forget about how things are now or how we want them to be tomorrow. That should not have happened, that there was even a perception that there was such a misunderstanding, because of course of history and many things which President Zuma has mentioned, because he talked about even political parties and with the history of liberation and struggles that really meant for the positive trends of our peoples beyond the two countries and then governments of today. So maybe the question you raise, even if we don't go into much in terms of details, just underscores how it is important for people to work together. And I think we are all willing to cooperate and work together for this common goal that benefits the continent. Thank you, sir. Ronan, I'd like to turn back to trade and I'd like to propose to President Zuma, we should set up more of a bilateral trade and see what items you're importing from third party countries that we could supply and vice versa and make it a very direct bilateral position to be selling corn in your harvest season, we sell you back, Cassava starch in your off season. I think there's a lot of room to make more efficient the trade balances using what we're buying anyway from third parties between ourselves. And I'd like to propose that for... And then President Zuma, absolutely the right to respond. I think John Kudos for making this discussion into a working group session. That's exactly what the World Economic Forum is all about. I totally agree. I think that's what we are trying to work on because what has in a sense hampered the trade, the inter-trading the continent, has been the infrastructure. For an example, in some countries where there are companies from South Africa that are working, just to shift the goods from South Africa to some of those countries, take such a long time because infrastructure is not there. I was in one country where they were saying, if you are looking for the spares to come, there'll be weeks on the sea trying to get to that country. That is an indication of the problem. The realization by the leadership that we need inter-trade. And we said, even if we are agreed on that one, without infrastructure you cannot do it. That's why we are focusing on the infrastructure. We are looking at South, North Corridor and across. And I think that is what will make that kind of an agreement to be easy. We can today make an agreement. It will be by and large theoretical because how do you reach another country? And that's why we are saying the investment on the infrastructure is the key for us to achieve that kind of an understanding. I understand something on that. Quickly, let me say, really this is important. This infrastructure is key, but also how it is used, which depends on the political aspect of it, is very important. I will quickly give an example and prompted by the point present to Zuma's yesterday. In my own account within our region, for example, to move a container of goods from Kigari, our capital, to Mombasa, used to take 22 days. This is three weeks beyond. Now, because of the collaboration we have put in place and the understanding and so on. And this by the way was mainly not because there are no roads or good roads, it's because of non-tariff barriers. It's actually there were blockages on the roads that were built. That's what it was going on. But we discussed it among ourselves and tried to identify these issues. Now, it has been brought down to six days. From 22 to six, huge benefits. So, first is infrastructure. Second, there must be the political will to drive all these things to make sure they happen. Is it real? Just quickly, I'm happy that we have a real consensus here on infrastructure and intra-Africa trade. So I would say more connectivity between Africa through roads and all, but including flights. I think we need to have many more flights within Africa. It's torturous to travel within Africa. And the other part is the investments that are sometimes celebrated are largely in the extractive industries. Most of the countries when they invite people to investments into those kind of industries must start putting conditions of local manufacturing. Some sort of value addition must be mandated. And the beneficiation theme. Yeah, so therefore, if it is copper in Zambia or parts of DRC in other areas, there must be some industries to follow. And that's where I would like to have the benefit of both the presidents who are very close to India. Investments from India have largely been into manufacturing, services, telecommunications. We have many people here, Godrej is here who are manufacturing, distributing. India brings good capital. I think the selection of capital and perhaps some inverted benefits in terms of concessions and all should be given to those investments, which are generating employment, which are getting manufacturing and linkages within Africa. Well Sunil, you are of course, co-chair of the India Africa Business Council. Perhaps we can book you a room after this session, sir, with the two presidents. He has investments in their countries, right? Oh, it's good. I would like to add to what Sunil is saying. I believe that movement of people needs to be addressed as well. So if you're an African traveling in Africa, you need more visas than a European. And it takes political will to address it. And I think that you don't need infrastructure to do that. So if we're able to address that, then that should help. The second point I wanted to make, the areas that he spoke about, manufacturing, telecom and all of those things, are the areas that are actually driving economic growth in most of the African countries. And so to the extent that we can come up with policies that influence and reinforce those types of investments, then it will only add to the growth of GDP across Africa. We've got seven minutes to conclusion, and I want to throw forward now to a quote from the World Bank global president, Jim Yong Kim, who said that blockages to private sector investment need to be removed. It's critical that blockages to private sector investment are removed in countries because the private sector is the largest generator of jobs, and hence that is the quickest way to reduce poverty. And that comes to sustainable development beyond the Millennium Development Goals expiring in 2015. We're moving to a theme of sustainable development. Gentlemen, I want you in conclusion to come back to me with those road blockages, the blockages to private sector investment, that you would like to see removed. We have two heads of states who can execute very quickly. Sunil, can I start with you? You know, to be honest with you, Africa is very welcoming of foreign investment. There are really no areas where there are any restrictions on FDI, for example. You can enter into most of the countries and invest at will, and there's generally a warm welcome towards those investments. So many countries have FDI restrictions and all and slowly opening up, but Africa, that we have been very good. Secondly, it has realized very early around that its resources, whether it's in the air, like spectrum or under the ground, can be put to good use for the benefit of the societies and economies. And I would say that here again, Africa has actually taken a lead. In India, we struggle with spectrum in Africa. Plenty full of spectrum has been given and the message is go build networks, serve the communities, get broadband connections out there. So I don't think so. There are really any policy issues. There are ground realities which are difficult. We spoke about infrastructure. We spoke about linkages. I think one area where I would say, I was to my dismay, very surprised was skills are not available in Africa. And if they are available, they are so expensive that for an Indian company getting into Africa, there was a shock that people who like to stay back in Africa, who have the necessary skills, want European salaries or American salaries. And that's a disconnect that Africa must deal with. Which means the pool of people who are skilled is rather limited. And with the billion people and very young people at that, we need to have a massive investment towards building skills and training people so that there's a lot of local talent available. John. I don't think I would add much except the known ones. Infrastructure, roads, gas, rail, low cost financing for investment. And especially in agriculture. The most important thing government can do is give a good consistent policy towards development and growth and expansion that's transparent and a level playing field and consistent. And I think those mechanisms are in place. And I think Nigeria and the rest of Africa have come very, very long distances in that regard. I think we, those are the enablers that are needed for business to go. And then government get out of the way and we'll run. I think that's the spirit. Move it quickly Oscar. Oscar. My colleagues have said it. African governments have really put in place policies that are very, very welcoming of investments. In Nigeria, no capital against tax. So it's zero. The dividends are taxed at 10% very competitive. Where I think we really need to do more work on. When we think about industries, we think about policy regulation operation. Policy has really been greatly improved and that is driving the growth that we've seen. Private sector wants the regulations to be consistent and allow them to do what they need to do. And so making sure that over long periods of time, you know under what regulations you're going to be doing your business and you have certainty around that really removes one uncertainty in doing your business. A number of nodding of heads in the audience so in agreement, President Kagami. Well it's infrastructure, skills, creating a predictable environment so that people know what to expect when they are doing business with you. That's very important. Then the other point which has already been made is to make sure that we allow Africans to move freely across borders and invest with and in each other as we should. I think if we do this, then the rest will follow. President Zuma. Well I agree, generally I agree. But I just wanted to make the other point earlier of the borders. I think African countries are discussing that to try to address that issue. It's not an issue that is not getting any attention. It is precisely because we realize this that if you were in Africa it's difficult to move and we are saying you should be quick to move if we are to implement our belief that intra-Africa is important and therefore once we have the infrastructure it should not be blocked by the different kind of countries and borders, et cetera. So that is a great. Also we have skills in the continent that are not in the continent, they are all over the world because there was no industry for those skills to be utilized. We believe that once we have the infrastructure, we have energy, those skills are going to come back as when they are not going to leave the continent. And therefore the question of the shortage of skills is not going to be an issue. But these are matters we are working on. And I'm happy that very critical points have been made. How to make the investment feel free. And I think my brother, they put the three things. I know that regulations are biggest problems for investors. These are matters we are dealing with as to how do we make it easy as well as how to do business easier rather than complicated bureaucracies. These are matters we are addressing and I'm hoping that very so we'll be able to deal with those matters. Given our own experiences in our different countries and the harmony of thinking in terms of what do we need to do for the continent. Thank you so much to my esteemed panellists. Well, one thing is for sure, as Africa ushers in the Sustainable Development Goals for 2015 economic inclusion and poverty alleviation are crucial to broader stability and African growth. One thing is clear, African governments are going to have to invest in their own development. The continent needs to attract all forms of development finance. But perhaps most crucial is creating the right environment for private sector investment to thrive. And once more I'm going to borrow from the quote from World Bank Group President Jim Young Kim. It's critical for countries to remove any unnecessary roadblocks to private sector investment. The private sector is by far the greatest source of jobs and that can lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Thank you so much for joining us for the CNBC Africa debate coming to you live from Davos, Switzerland where the World Economic Forum is currently in session.