 ThinkTekAway, civil engagement lives here. Welcome to the Asia Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp, back after a four-month period of absence during research in China. And it's good to see everybody out there today. Our program today is the Pacific Island Nation's Leadership Program with Taiwan. And our guest, I'm going to let them introduce herself first. Christina Monroe. Super. Senior Manager with East West Center of Leadership Programs. Great. I'm Laura Kahikina, Director of Environmental Services with the City and County of Honolulu. Great. Well, it's great to have you guys here with us. And I know, Christina, you just got back from Palau, so we really appreciate you being in here today. Yes. Glad to be here. Well, tell us about the program. What's the program seek to achieve? Sure. So the Pacific Island's Development Program is a five-year-old program with generous funding from the government of Taiwan, from China. And it has now served 122 fellows from 15 different island nations, both here in Hawaii. They spend about a month here in Hawaii and a month in Taiwan. Wow. Wow. So, now, just tell us what some of the Pacific Island nations are that are included in this. Sure. Vanuatu, Papua New Guinea, Salamence, Samoa, federated states of Micronesia, to name a few. Wow. Yeah, I mean, of course, the Pacific Island is a cover, a really wide, broad area. Yeah. Well, what kind of this program started? What was the impetus for this program? It was really the Taiwanese government coming to our state department and saying, we would like to invest in these island nations and foster their growth and their leadership capacity within both their government, NGO, business sectors. And the state department then coming to East West Center, knowing we could do the job having had the Pacific Island development program since the 80s and thinking we could do it and so far so good. Wow. That's great. That is really great. And just how long is the program? It is approximately two months. Two months. Okay. Great. And so, the folks that participate in the program, these are developmental officials from all these Pacific Island nations? Different things. Others might work for the Palau Conservation Society. Others might work for the Tourism Authority, the National Congress. A lot in government, but again, some business, some NGO in really all sectors. Great. Great. So, Lori, now what's your role in all of this been? So my role, I was actually kind of taken aback when East West Center first contacted me. I had no idea this program existed, but I was thoroughly impressed. But they were more interested in the city and counties, landfill and age power facilities. How do we deal with the trash and even our wastewater? Some of these other countries, they don't necessarily deal with it in an environmentally friendly way such as city and county does. So we gave tours of our facilities. And then also, my role when I spoke to the participants was to talk about leadership and management. So like I guess as Christine mentioned, I'm one of the mentors of this program. Oh, that's really interesting. So basically, you're here in Honolulu because you work for the city and county, but you're kind of an advisor to the program? When they ask me to participate, whenever they have new students come in, then they come in to our facilities and I will meet with them. Oh, wow. That's great. That is really great. Well, I think everybody knows that the Pacific Islands are probably an area which has been at different times kind of overlooked and probably can benefit from a lot of this sort of attention. As I recall, this program was started when Kurt Camel was the assistant secretary of state. You're exactly right. And he was very, very keen on the Pacific Islands. His book, which I think is a fabulous book, one of his books called Pivot is all about how the U.S., well, not all about but gives a lot of focus to the Pacific Islands and how the U.S. needs to ramp its game up. Yes. He's still a great friend and advocate of all our leadership programs and especially this one. Yeah, we're thankful for the role he played. That is great. That is great. Okay. Now, okay, so we have the East West Center. We have the Taiwan government and East West Center means U.S. government. A good portion of our funding comes from government. That's true. I don't know how you count the movers and shakers behind this program. Do you count them as two or do you count them as three? East West Center and U.S. Governor all rolled into one? How do we do that? Yeah, sure. Taiwan, of course, being the primary funder for this one is our go-to. We ask their inputs, of course, and they guide us. But what we really respect about them as a funder is that they trust what we do. They like what we do. We're in constant dialogue with them and the IDIA folks there to find out what's going on with them. What would they like to see more or less of in the program? So they're closest friends in the process. That's great. That's great. I know that I just came back from China and Taiwan a few weeks ago and on the way back to Hawaii, I stopped in Taiwan and had a meeting with some folks in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I know they're rather keen on this program. Yeah. I really agree. So now, when you're in Taiwan, where is the training carried out at? It's we work with the IDIA, Institute for Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs and they play a big role. So we stay right next door to them. They guide our meetings. They take us on site visits of importance which echo the important case studies of leadership they do here in Honolulu to see how things are done in Taiwan. So okay, do you stay mostly in Taipei or you're panned out and spread out throughout the country? Yes. A good portion of the time is in Taipei but they also have a final retreat and refraction space. It's a bit outside of town. So get out a little bit. Yes. Oh, that's super. That's super. Now, do you go along to Taiwan or are you just sort of holding the fork down? Just holding the best. It is an interesting idea. No, I just hold the fork down here. I see. That's great. That's great. You know, in Taiwan, Taiwan is very concerned about environmental issues and especially with the party that's ruling Taiwan at the minute, they're very big on being green, environmental issues. So it's interesting to hear you talk about some of those environmental issues. So how many folks do you have in your section at East West Center that handles this program? Yeah, we have about nine people that do Pacific Island initiatives and that could be a range, the North Pacific Women's Action Program led by Gretchen Alter. We also have Scott Croker. We have Nick Barker. Many people that are involved with different aspects of Pacific Island programming and this is one of those. That's great. That's great. And so as this program goes forward, how do you see it evolving? Great question. We like futures questions. And I think that's an important reason why Lori's with me here today that I think moving forward in our leadership programs, profiling Hawaii's leadership cases and community leaders that we respect and making sure people understand leadership questions aren't easy. There's dilemmas, there's trade-offs, there's a lot of complexity. And I think when they sit down and talk story with Lori from all these different islands, they share there's a camaraderie that comes from being island nations together, struggling with problems and as well the leadership case studies that Hawaii can provide. Not that we're better or more advanced but that we're part of this neighborhood of Pacific Islands and meeting friends, struggling with waste, whether that's solid or wastewater as Lori is. I think they feel a connection, a kind of relief and then also a lot of learning that comes from it. So moving forward, profiling what Hawaii does best and introducing them to those folks and having honest dialogues about the choices you have to make. Now I'm sure the program has had many successes but what's a kind of outstanding success that you might tell us about? Oh my goodness, that's a hard one. Do you want to say more about that time? No, no, no, no, not at all. If you need me to give you time. I'd love for her to describe a little bit more what they did with you when they had a conversation. Sure, when she first approached me, usually I asked for, what are some topics that I could put together PowerPoint, she'd say, no, no PowerPoint, just speak from your heart. And it's like, I don't know anything about this program. They had a reception prior to the meeting with me and I took down notes of everything what they were all interested in and a lot of them were environmental issues, clean water, what do you do with the sewage and leadership and management questions. So I just went one by one on some of those things, what they're interested in and I really enjoyed myself. I'm not used to speaking like that, usually it's a set PowerPoint and here's my notes and at the end questions, but it was so interactive. I really enjoyed it and I really do hope they invite me over every year for their program because it was educational for me too. You just take for granted what we have here. You flush the toilet, you turn on the water, it's there and you just meeting with them. I have a much greater appreciation for what we have here. Oh, that's great, that's great. Well, now that we talked about successes, what are some of the challenges, what's the biggest challenge? Sure, I think anytime we do residential leadership programs and we have a large suite of those at East West Center, I think people get really jazzed and they have a cohort of like-minded folks, they live with them, they eat with them, they have fun with them, they're doing trainings with them. That transition back home and how can what Lori talked about be used. Now I go back to this big bureaucracy that's actually a little bit difficult to change. So how do we navigate this change with my new knowledge and not get too big for my britches? Change bureaucracy in a Pacific Island nation. Exactly, so they're empowered as an individual but how can we increasingly, and our challenge I think as trainers or facilitators is to give them tools that they're going to be able to share with their teams so that they're changing systems. They may feel jazzed but no one's going to care maybe when they get back so how can they make that real for their community and make it something useful to others around them. So a little bit more of the train the trainer model I think is useful giving them tools they can go back and teach others about and then they've got a team on board with them for the change they want to make. Right, and I mean these are all Pacific Island nations that you deal with but each Pacific Island nation is different, it has its own different culture, its own different customs, its own different language. So there's a lot of challenges aren't there? Yeah, absolutely having just been to Palau and Yap and Micronesia just seeing the difference between the four states in Micronesia and then Palau and Marshall's all really different. There's some, we're cousins, there's some shared challenges but they're also very unique in their geography and their systems and their history so being both respectful of their differences and that's just within the North Pacific. Then you throw in the South Pacific and a lot of differences and they themselves often maybe know more about the US than they do about each other. So building that Pacific camaraderie they might not have actually met someone from Melanesia and their Polynesian that sometimes not and so getting a pan Pacific cohort vibe and around shared challenges we're all dealing with waste but we're all from very different places that can be one of the biggest takeaways that some of the participants have is that pan Pacific family. That's a really interesting comment. I think what we'll do is we'll stop there. We're going to take a break. You're watching Asia in Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. Our show today is Pacific Island Leadership Program with Taiwan. I have two guys here with me Christina and Laurie who are filling us in on this program and we'll be right back so don't go away. Hello everyone. I'm DeSoto Brown the co-host of Human Humane Architecture which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host Martin Desbang we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live but other aspects of our life not only here in Hawaii but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. Hey baby that's you. I want to know will you watch my show. I hope you do. It's on Tuesdays at one o'clock and it's out of the comfort zone and I'll be your host RV Kelly. See you there. Welcome back to Asia in Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. Our program today is Pacific Island Leadership Program with Taiwan and my guests are Christina and Laurie and they're very much involved with this program. Christina is the boss and Laurie I guess you would call it as a consultant. Sure. A big boss on her own right. Yeah. So this is a really great program that really it gives so much help to Pacific Island nations and but OK the United States definitely has interest in Pacific Islands but there are other countries that do to Australia and New Zealand. Do you see did they have similar programs. Sure. Australia New Zealand especially invest heavily in leadership development. A lot of aid a lot of our fellows will work for Australian aid funded organizations so sure. And it's a some of our other programs the North Pacific Women's Action Program brings together funding from New Zealand and U.S. So definitely we're working together with other with other nations to to support collaborate with Pacific Island nations. OK. Now let me say Pacific all the country all the I don't want to say countries quite yet all the areas that the Pacific Islands you're dealing with these are independent nations with there's still some European colonies in the Pacific. Do you deal with colonies as well. Sure yeah and some have special relationships like Tahiti with France. There's there's definitely different levels of relationships with past or current European or U.S. There's American Samoa although of course the compact agreement with Micronesia so yeah a different relationship with different countries. That's great that's great that's great. I'm just a question on the tip of my tongue I almost lost it. OK now when you're in Taiwan you're you said you were mostly in Taipei right. But what are some of the other areas in Taiwan that you go to to carry out the training. It's a good question and next time I hope to go myself. So I can answer that question better of other staff members normally escort them. So I see. So I'm probably not the best person to ask that to be honest. OK. But a lot of it is looking at case studies. They have our important department so mostly in Taipei but again they end in a retreat that's outside of town and that's also to get away kind of from the urban so they can enjoy a closing retreat in the outskirts. So the real focus is on leadership development. Right. Do you guys get into like village development land reform or that kind of thing. Or is that out of your scope of concern. No no it's a great question. East West Center leadership programs generally work with the individuals sometimes with teams but primarily we get to all those issues but not in a way that we're directly doing like an international aid or an international development office would do we more work with individuals embedded in those systems give them tools give them ideas that are more that they apply to their context so we might not know about specifically about wastewater in a certain village but that's why when we bring them here to Honolulu we give them general leadership foundational leadership skills and then we have them do different case studies with Lori looking at solid waste and wastewater. We also go go to NOAA we go to Paycom we go to the women's correction facility looking at deep deep sea research that's happening so we do a lot of different leadership case studies in the community that would give them that context specific to insert into their work. How would you characterize Pacific Island leadership is there a Pacific Island mode of leadership. Oh boy that's a dangerous question like it would be here in Hawaii to generalize is is difficult. I think one thing working with the Pacific Islands 15 nations that we do we realize how it's unlikely to be able to generalize across the 15 I think there's some shared and some things that Hawaii shares as well. I think there's an importance of elder reverence and elder knowledge. I think there's a challenge between indigenous and Western knowledge systems and how that's kind of where I wanted to go. Because I know that can be tricky. Sure. Yeah that can be very very tricky. But I think I interrupted you. No no but I think you know it's something Hawaii has as well. It's a blessing we have to be able to have different systems to make sense of not just getting from one system but then it takes some negotiation around that and who's the authority just coming back from. Yeah they have a fourth branch of government in addition to the three we have and that's the traditional leaders. So how did and they are consulted just like a branch of government. And so how they merge and do that is unique to say how Palau is doing it. So exciting to see that. Could you very broadly say that Pacific Island leadership is consultative in nature that it seeks to create like army you know sometimes Western leadership is sometimes characterized as being a little bit set them up and knock them down. Kind of like well here we all guys we're going to do it my way. Sort of I guess that's a classical notion of Western leadership. Whereas I somehow have this notion that like I'm more familiar with East Asia than I am with Pacific Islands and and I think in the Far East there's more of a consultative collaborative approach to leadership and I have a sneaking suspicion that might be true in Pacific Islands but I don't really know. I think so I'm depending on your expertise. No and I'd be curious what what Lori thinks just in talking with them a little bit but I a lot in her mentorship but I think it comes from also having a small space I think geography does come to play here we have they we all have limited resources but islands as we know we're more aware of our resources and that means how we steward those and who gets to consult in it's probably going to need to be a bit more collaborative because we're aware of the limits of this space we occupy so maybe by force you can't you can't go west and run off and find vast tracks of land. So I think that that plays in just as when you look at the difference between Hawaii and mainland leadership you might be able to maybe maybe not but I think you could say something that that had to do with islands but I don't know what you think after all your experience in Hawaii. I can see it both ways because our resources are limited we sometimes do draw that line you know even between government state and city and and beds like no this is my responsibility this is yours so it's both both ways sometimes we're collaborative and sometimes it's here's the line. This is our Kuliana. For all our non-Hawaiian listeners Kuliana means turf. Very well put. That's really really interesting yeah that's really interesting yeah cross-cultural leadership that's that's that's a challenging enterprise. Well how about some of the feedback you've received on the program. Yeah obviously the government in Taiwan must like it or they wouldn't have renewed it. Yeah right yes and I should say that so we'll we just receive order five more years of funding so until 2022 so that's that's good feedback from them but I do think it's based on participant feedback I think and Laura you heard you heard from their opening ceremony. A little bit more about what they wanted to get out of it. I think we're hitting that pretty good and exceeding expectations in terms of building this pan-Pacific network. I think leaving with that really really opens their mind to other possibilities and seeing the differences and the similarities between other Pacific so the network itself we get a lot of feedback about that I just met about five in my travels I just met about five or six alumni and I think that feedback that it's it's opened them up to approaching problem solving or taking a more appreciative lens to problem solving and trying it from different directions that's pretty big feedback we get basically unlearning and relearning is just as important as learning in our programs and I think they they find that impactful. I see I see you. OK you're basically interested in leadership I know one of the great natural resources of Pacific Island nations are the great fishery resources. Do you have any interface with like fishery organizations and helping them maybe to ramp up their leadership skills. Sure. Sure. You can't walk too far in the Pacific and not not hit up against this huge resource. A lot of people are involved in and sure a lot of the fellows we have have some affiliation with government more likely government or or NGO some business interest related to to fisheries and that's yeah it's a it's a huge deal for them I think looking at even more recently looking at building infrastructure around say the canning of tuna and putting in those facilities so not just using it as a selling our resources but how can we do value add and that but that will get in you know to waste how would they deal with the waste of that and process that and every island's kind of making different calculations around that. There seems to be like a lot of emphasis on environmental protection. I don't know if this question sounds a little naive I'm going to stick my neck out here. Why. Why is there is this program seem to put so much emphasis on environmental protection. Oh. Did you want to answer that. Well you could say why it's important and then it probably blew back to why we had it. Actually what in in that reception a lot of them did come up with that environmental I think as Christina said we're on an island. We don't have excessive land like the mainland where you can just dump trash in a in a big pit somewhere. Our land is so we only have a very limited amount so how we deal with it. Some of the students what they've shared with me they do just have a landfill and they just dump everything there. There's no monitoring. Our landfill is very strict. What what what can be disposed of there when what time and we have to close it every day. We have to cover it where there's birds there's rubbers that people can sift through the landfills over there. That's not allowed here. And so I think just just opening their eyes on how things can are done here. It was really educational for them. Oh that's great that's great that's great. You know sometimes when I think of and this might sound just a little bit naive too. So you'll forgive me again I hope but sometimes when I think of a civic island nations as as you guys have pointed out several times today the land masses is somewhat limited and some of them are really challenged by which would say like their land is disappearing. And it has that is that an area which you kind of address leadership of how to preserve the land that you have. Sure. It's a it's a big issue. It's not a future issue for Pacific Islands. I think that's why they take a global lead on sea level. I've just been told that we have one minute left. So I have to notify you. Super important. Right. And as they have less land and have to move infrastructure what salination talked a lot with Laurie about that. It's something we'll have to deal with in Hawaii and they will too. Great. Great. Great. Well I think we've come to the end of our time here. I'd like to thank our guests for joining us today and we all need to pay more attention to Pacific Islands because they're unfortunately have been overlooked a bit and this program certainly does seeks to write the balance. I'd like to thank everybody for joining us today and I'd like to see you again next week when my guest will be Peter Olson Peter Olson is a former Pentagon consultant and strategist and he brings the wealth of knowledge here to share with all of us. So we'll see you again next week right here on Asian Review.