 Governor Udomi Manuel says electoral bill passage is key to unlocking Nigeria's potentials, while constitution review is a distraction. And in response to an interview done by President Buhari, Afenfaira calls the nation's leader an unrepentant tribalist. This is plus politics and I am Mary-Anna Cole. Governor Udomi Manuel of Aqaibom has spoken on the passage of the electoral bill saying it is fundamental to the furtherance of Nigeria's democracy. He said that taking the nation on the path of constitutional review would present a distraction as the issue of the electoral bill, which should assure Nigerians of their stake in democracy, is on ground. He added that though the electoral bill may not be a single solution to all of Nigeria's problems, it is a major step forward. Well joining us to have this conversation is Professor Richard Wakko-Cahi is a professor at the Department of Public Law, River State University, and of course joining us is a political analyst at Demola at Diwali. Thank you very much for joining us. It's my pleasure. All right. I'm going to start with- Good pleasure. I'll start with you, Professor. The interesting thing about what the governor of Aqaibom State is emphasizing on is the fact that we should as a country, including our law makers, be focusing on the issue of the electoral bill, making sure that it goes through the process and the different stages and get passed because he feels that this is a step in the right direction and it will help address most of the problems that we're facing as a country. What do you stand on this? I think having an electoral reform, can you hear me now? Yes. Having an electoral reform or concluding the electoral reform is a very good thing, but it's not even nearly the best thing to having our constitution reviewed. Having the right position in our constitution will solve a lot more problems than completing the review process. That's not to say that the electoral reform process is not necessary. It's a good thing, but it's not at all comparable to being able to make fundamental changes in our constitution which the review presents. So which should take precedence? Because he's arguing side-by-side saying that we're paying too much attention to the constitutional review and we're letting the electoral bill lie there and gather dust. So are you saying that both should be taken into consideration side-by-side or one should take precedence over the other because you're saying that the constitution is very important? The constitution is most important of all. Reason is simple. You can only hold an election and a successful and democratic election in a good society or a good political society and that society is designed by the constitution. So even if you have a very good election in a society or a country like ours that is fundamentally flawed we can find so many ways in which we can show that the system structure of our country is fundamentally flawed. The bulk of our money goes to the centre which is supposed to be a place for administration and where the money should go which is the country where we need to develop receives the list. Now if you have a review of our constitution that enables us to get back to the proper federation that we should be you can hold an election with our uncle and we won't hear what is happening in any region or any state or at the centre. It won't be as important as it is now. So getting the society right, getting the constitutional structure right is key. It's only within that frame that you will hold an election. So the election cannot be an electoral reform which is quite important, cannot be more important than reviewing the constitution and getting the country properly structured. Let me come to you Mr Justice. Do you hold the same position as the professor? Because the issue of the electoral bill has, you know it was more on the lips of every person before the 2019 elections and right after. We remember the back and forth between the executive in fact the presidents and the legislature where they were, you know there was pressure on the president to sign it and then they were about to go on some recess hoping that you know the president would do it but then the president didn't and now the 9th assembly has started the process from scratch and it's still ongoing. One would wonder why it's taking so long because I mean we would be hoping that this electoral bill would have been signed into law before the 2023 elections but do you think that it's a priority and maybe if it isn't that's why the National Assembly is not paying attention to it. Unfortunately I think that we have lost our Dimalak Justice but let me go back to Professor Wakocha. Let's look at some of the interesting things in the bill. I remember I've spoken with INEC officials over and over and they keep talking about the issue of e-voting and some other things that need to be infused into that electoral bill that are not there. E-voting is a thing that we have also bandied. We've seen politicians through it here and they even asked the average voters we're pointing towards as something that we need and that might help the electoral process but in reality is it something that really can work in the Nigerian setting? Yes, e-voting can work in the Nigerian setting. It's not so mundane. It's not so much of a rocket science. We have transited from banking in the banking hall to drawing our money anytime of the day we want through the machines. It's not very different. In fact, even the voting, the ATM machines can be configured to be used for voting. With your card you can go to the ATM machine if it is configured for that purpose and call up what you want to do which is the voting exercise and particular election you want, cast your vote and enter the same way you do to draw your money or to do a transfer. So it's not strange. Besides, a big organization like the Nigerian Bar Association you have nothing compared to the population of Nigeria but we've seen it used by organizations within Nigeria last three elections. Hello, can you hear me? Yes. Okay, so I'll say the Nigerian Bar Association for instance has used it in the last three elections and they were able to conclude their elections. Yes, there were questions but those questions are nothing to be compared to the normal questions that arise from the Nigerian electoral process. And the beautiful thing again about the problem that electronic voting presents is that whatever my practices that are done are usually left here. It's difficult to get them off the system. So even in the electoral appeals, electoral contestation competitions and appeals those things can be pointed out and decisions can easily be reached. So it's not practice science. It's what is going on around the world. It's being done in this country by different organizations that have conducted elections electronically and I dare say that if whatever political reform we are doing does not lead to electronic voting then I think we're just wasting our time. I just want again to plug in here when we talk about it being realistic the Nigerian Bar Association with due respect it's just a handful of people compared to the 200 plus million... At least some tens of thousands of people out there about 100s or 200s. Compared to the 200 plus million people that we have in the country. So really the reality again the reason why I wanted to chime in here is because every single time we want to register a SIM card we do a biometrics all over again. We have a lot of data in this country as it is we have done the NIN as I speak now certain people still do not have the card in itself we still have a piece of paper. We still do biometrics if we want to get an ATM card from a bank you want to do your driver's license so we have so much data scattered about if we have not been able to put all of that data in one place I recently went to get my international passport I still had to do a brand new biometrics so when we say that oh it's not rocket science we do make it seem like rocket science in this country because we have not been able to harmonize all of that data that we have same for our identity card so how do we do that regularize that process of e-voting if we have not been able to regularize the normal ID card the data that we have linked to one one card how are we going to make that happen for our cards when we're voting harmonizing our data into a single data bank there is no doubt about that but that is not a key requirement for the voting every voter is a registered voter biometrics have been captured by INEC so it's not like you're starting afresh INEC has a biometrics right now we are using electronics for verification before voting so the data is already there for those who are going to register newly they will get their number and they will be able to do the same for that particular purpose which is election we are already halfway there because right now as we speak INEC has used electronic process for verification before going into voting the last one or two elections that we have heard so it's not as if we are going to start afresh try to capture everybody's biometrics data again and the rest we already have it in INEC okay let me move to Mr. Justice I think we have him back let's take a closer look at Gov. Domi Manuel's statement about this whole issue of the electoral bill he made a statement saying that taking the nation on the path of constitutional amendment is a distraction from the main issues Ademala Justice you know that Nigeria is facing a portfolio of issues from the north to the south to the east down to the west do you somewhat agree with the governor of Aquabomb states when he says that this constitutional amendment is a distraction from the main issues of Nigeria or could that be a solution to some of the problems that we're facing as a country thank you very much you know I would just want to apply the same route with my colleague who has said one or two things about the necessity of constitutional amendment and at the same time I would want to say as a governor is the chief executive officer of the state and relatively it would have a which is at the time I want everybody to know that the necessity for an amendment of our constitution cannot be underbladed and going by the fact that the age of the constitution and the emerging issues in the nation going by the expectations of almost every state in Nigeria project needs to review the constitution I give you to the governor in the practice of law it is expected that you get to hear from all parties before you can agree but like I said I would give it to him on one side but on the other side it is a long due necessity to review our constitution let's talk about the problems that Nigeria is facing right now it's not news except you leave on Mars even the people outside Nigeria are talking about the situation in Nigeria yes the constitutional review according to you and the professor is a way forward and some form of a solution to some of Nigeria's problems but is that the only thing we need to consider now because we see that our problems are multifaceted fixing a constitution will that douse all the tension and all the agitations that we're facing like we have already been saying Nigeria has numerous issues numerous problems but we don't have a monolithic answer to all the problems the constitution like I said as a democratic necessity would only pave way to just like we say in economics it's a means to the end not an end in itself it would only guide and assist the process of rebutting our nation it will not solve the entirety of the problems it will only lead us to solving the problems to the constitution just like the other speakers the constitutionality of the nation plays a critical role in our dance people to alert and observe that we need to go back to the drawing room and reorganize how our organization was used at the issue so to review the constitution now is as a project as possible but at the same time I will give you another issue that consolidated solution would help us as a nation but the constitution is one because the review of the constitution will take us to the respective concepts of the project called Nigeria constitution dictates how we live as a nation it tells how it's like the nether deltans would have been asserting over the years the issue of how oil wells are signed particularly to I think we lost Mr. Justice there let's move on to back to Professor Wakacha he made mention the governor of Aqaib-e-Masih made mention of the fact that our democracy is a borrowed system of government and he said I'd like to quote him directly that with the level of success so far it has become expedience to streamline the system so the question is how do we streamline this system because a lot of people have complained about the way that we run our democracy I can never forget what a presidential aid under the Good Lock Johnson administration Dr. Doyle Kupe said when he was asked about how we run the democracy in Nigeria and he said that there is a Nigerian way of doing things in other words our democracy was run the Nigerian way but really how do you streamline a government a system of government such as this many have said that we really are running a democracy in this country and most people have said that nations need to embrace a democracy but is it really something that would work for Nigeria because I'm one of those people who believe that there are countries who run very well but they do not run a democracy so does Nigeria really need a democracy to stand on its two feet yes Nigeria does need a democracy the truth we are running away from is the fact that our problem is not so much the Nigerian way of running democracy but an attempt to operate democracy in Nigeria now what is Nigerian about Nigeria it is a fact that in 1966 a fledgling federal nation was suddenly merged into a unitary system a unitary command system now everything changed in our life as a country from 1966 when that happened why that is still there it will be difficult to run a democratic government difficult to do a whole lot of things that you should be able to do in the country but the reason why we are having that difficulty is the constitutional problem the fact that as a federation the federation units do not have the powers that are due federation units of a federation federation units cannot plan their lives federation units cannot generate income and plan their development according to their pace and according to their desire everybody is locked down to whatever is decided at the center at the end of the day we are going to move on to the units from the center instead of the revests which is what happens in federation excuse me in first republic we we generated our resources at the units and paid 50% tax to the center with which the national interest was run and national assignment and responsibilities were run back to today I mean where everybody goes with a plate in hand to ask a jack every month for some handout from the center which they will come here and share among themselves because the bulk of the money is going to the center and because the center really ought not to have any serious business to do they have to ploy it into ploy it into paying huge salaries for themselves we are national assembly members and federal executive officers we aim for the length as far as the Nigerian any system is concerned so if you have that system and you don't fix it there is nothing you are going to do to effectively run a democracy a democracy where your money is not going to where your mouth is it cannot work I want to quickly put in a question professor the question I was asking was not necessarily about the I know that we can of course run a democracy in this country but I am talking about the persons that we have in government is it in it in the average Nigerian politician to follow the tenets and the rules of a democratic system can they follow the rules and regulations because it is easy for us to band the word democracy around but in the real sense of it can we allow the freedoms of democracy in the country we call Nigeria they can but again we need to know that systems are not desired for people to do what they like their responsibilities are duties that is why you have a constitution that is why you have laws governing everything in the nation so we are not supposed to be asking ourselves can the people do it whenever that question is asked it means that our system has failed and we are unable to punish those who are abusing the system or abusing the law because we have an absurd situation which ought not to be people are compelled to do what they love okay I think we are having a little connection issue but I think justice is back before we wrap up this segment let me go back to you Mr Adewale the governor of our Kwaibong state also talked about the what we should be prioritizing now in the life of Nigeria being that we are facing insecurity the economy is taking a deep the dollar is having a free fall you know infrastructure this federal government will tell you that they are building a lot of infrastructure yes but then insecurity is raising its ugly head yet again and it is more than a year that this has been going on so he talked about all of these things and he talked about the fact that we are not really ready to look at the major issues that Nigeria has he made mention of the fact that we do not have pipelines that pump products to every part of the country he also said he asked a question more like which roads are we having these trucks that would take these petroleum products through he was talking about the fact that we keep ear macking monies for infrastructural developments but we hardly see those infrastructural developments we may not really grow as a country if we are not prioritizing certain things in this country now I ask you, I am throwing back that question to you where should the government start to prioritize what do you think if you were put on the table with let's say for example the president and you were asked your opinion as to where we should start to deal with Nigeria's problems what would that be I am so sorry the president is giving us a little bit of problems so I am going to go back to Professor Wakacha hopefully he is back Professor so I throw that question to you where do we start to prioritize Nigeria's problems what do we pick because of course you can't deal with everything at the same time yes the president's place is full but what should he do right now if I have to advise the president I would say he needs to change his perspective a few days ago I know the most critical problem we are facing in the country now is insecurity and it is creeping up everywhere I mean it is coming up in every region of the country and I think the solution lies in the president changing his perspective a few days ago I listened to the president talking about insecurity and he says on one hand hardsmen who are causing havoc in the country are non-nationals on the other hand you don't want to deal with them as criminals and when steps to prevent them from causing havoc in the regions you say that it is inconsistent or that it is illegal and that is wrong we just can't do that so if we are facing foreigners who are killing us in the various parts of the country and you say no we shouldn't do anything to defend ourselves then what exactly are you calling for so I think the president needs to change his perspective on that burning issue because around that issue it involves a lot of other issues and if we don't fix it I wonder if we can even have an election if we can have a country in which to have an election in 2023 so I will advise the president first to change his perspective in dealing with the most fundamental issue now which is insecurity and treat crime as crime a non-national shouldn't come into Nigeria without papers and if he comes in he should work into Nigerian rules until we fix that I am afraid we are running into a deeper problem in this country Ademira Justice is back with us on the phone this time and hopefully we can hear him Mr Justice I'm still going to throw that question to you but this time I'm going to take from what the professor has said he's saying that we cannot allow outsiders to come and cause confusion in our country they have to abide by the rules and regulations if a person comes from outside outside of town and realizes that this place you know you can cut corners and you can do as you like and nobody's held accountable what would stop them from doing what they're doing now the presidency is not the first this is not the first time that they're saying that the people who are supposedly causing all of the insecurity are outsiders but it does not seem like we are treating them the way we should because let's take for example Nigerians were in Ghana causing a mayhem would they be would we really would they be having this conversation on the TV station say oh Nigerians are responsible for banditry but we would not we would not deal with them with the full weight of the law should that even be a conversation we should be having at this point I think we lost him again unfortunately his connection is really bad we're hoping that on the phone we will be able to have him but finally professor before I let you go um the governor of archival states had said that the PDP is what Nigerian needs for it to be brought back to its private place I'd like to quote him directly he said Nigerians need the PDP to step up he also said Nigerians need the PDP to save the country what's the difference between the PDP apart from the acronyms in terms of ideology and what they have to offer us is it about the parties is it about the people what exactly is it I was going to ask not just the ideology but also in terms of the personalities are they not the same people who are moving from one party to the other I do not think that our problem lies with political parties political parties will not solve our problem our problems are more fundamental than political parties and we have discussed some of them we have highlighted some of them in this interview we need something fundamental that changes the structure on which these things are possible and it does not lie in the hands or mouth of any political party to solve that problem we must visit a summation and make those structural changes when those structural changes are made we will see the difference in the first republic did you hear one group fighting the other group or complaining about marginalisation no fix the country get us back to the proper federation and we will all be too busy producing and making wealth and developing ourselves we will be too busy doing that to remember where which person comes from so I think PDP and the APC are not our problem they do not have the key to our solution to our challenges all right well Professor Richard our chat is of the department of public law river states university thank you so much for being part of the conversation Diwali Justice is a public affairs analyst unfortunately his internet connection was really bad thank you all for being part of the conversation well we will take a short break and when we return if any fairer tells us what they think about the President's recent interview stay with us we will be right back