 OK, welcome, everyone. You can see some familiar faces that are always nice. So welcome to the third day of agile India conference. As many of you know, this is the largest conference actually in the continent. So I hope you have been able to make good connections and listen to good talks. And hopefully, this is going to be one of those. So as a climber, this is not a design thinking lecture. I would love to, but it would be a three- or four-hour talk. So my purpose today is picking your curiosity and giving you some insights, some tips that you can only get with hard work and experience. So I think it's worth it to spend the next 45 minutes that way. You guys agree? OK, so let's get started. To give you some context, I was born and raised in Colombia. And I traveled all over Latin America. So over time, I got a good grasp of what homelessness means in a developing country. And it can be summarized in two ways, living on the streets and panhandling. When I was in Colombia, I always heard that there are a lot of programs in the United States focused on homelessness, food stamps, social workers, soup kitchens, and tons of charitable organizations. So a few years ago, when I moved to the United States, actually to Washington, DC, where I live right now, it was a little bit shocking to me to see some people sleeping on the streets. And it was even more shocking what I saw in New York a few months later. And it happened the same in San Francisco, Pennsylvania, Minneapolis, even in Las Vegas. But at the end of the last year, I went to San Diego, California. I was there for the Global Agile Conference. And don't take me wrong, I love the conference. And I fell in love with that city, probably one of the most beautiful places in the country. But I have no words to explain what I saw in terms of homelessness. However, at that time, during that trip, my thoughts and emotions were completely different. And the reason is very simple. Three months before, I was working on a design thinking project. There is a lady, very nice, very sweet lady. Her name is Karen Holt. She basically runs the design thinking community in Washington, DC. She asked if I wanted to join a team who was working on homelessness. 12 weeks, I was going to have a team. I was going to have a mentor. And she was going to be available at all times. So very interesting, very tempting. Why not? This is the point. I'm an engineer. I've been in the business side my entire life. And I'm an agile coach. So what do you guys think I did? I did my homework. And I did my research. And for one week, I dreamed homelessness. I ate homelessness. I breathed homelessness. I found six very long papers. I read over 55 articles. I watched four documentaries. And I think all that material let me add some new things to my list on how to explain homelessness. So besides living on the streets and panhandling, I included certain elements like it is a choice. It's a choice you make unless you have a mental illness. You don't care much about your family. You don't care much about people. You don't care much about society. And there is plenty of room for addictions if you are not already an addict. I also found over 12 TED talks very well articulated PhDs and business people. And pretty much all of them mentioned two things as primary drivers of any solution focused on homelessness. Cheap affordable housing and jobs. So at that point, I thought I was ready. I was way ahead. And the next day, I met my team. And that day, I learned my lesson the hard way. In design thinking, and this is my tip number one, in design thinking, you always start with a blank sheet. So Ricardo, thank you very much for educating yourself. But forget about your crap. This is not about your bias. This is not about your opinion, your judgment, or your point of view. This is a human-centered process, not a Ricardo's bias-centered project. But what about all those things that I already learned? This is very simple. So come to the window. Do you see a parking lot? OK, put your crap there and leave it there. So you always start with a blank sheet. Now when we Google design thinking, this is what we get. A lot of definitions, because it is a framework. And as it happens with a lot of frameworks, execution is very tricky. There are tons of tools, tons of techniques, and a lot of room to get lost, even without knowing that you are lost. So the way you choose is very, very important. Here's a definition that I really like. And I like it because it's the one that my mom understands. So first, observe and learn. Then think out of the box. Fly, dream, get high, do your stuff, and then bring it back to the box, because we all live in a box. And that is a very important concept in design thinking. Now, as every project in life, we start with a brief. In this case, a design brief. They usually have six or seven elements. But the most important one to me is the description. And this is my tip number two. Don't state a problem. Don't state an issue. Don't state a situation. State a challenge. In our case, how can we improve the financial situation of a homeless person? It's not a problem. It's not an issue. It's not a situation. It's a challenge. And there are three reasons for that. It will give you clarity. It will give you control. And it will give you transparency. And on top of that, it will save you a lot of time. So how can we improve the financial situation of a homeless person? Now that we know where we are going, we are ready to start. So the first big portion on design thinking, learn and research. Three steps. Observing, interviewing, getting insights. A very linear process, even though we ended up with something like this. Let's talk about observing. We started with a template called behavior scanning. You print out 10 or 15 of them, get a pen, get out. In our case, find a homeless person, sit down and observe. Then you write down your observations. No judgment, no wondering, just observations. And it is not like it is a sunny day. There is a park. The grass is green. There are three homeless, two dogs, and a rabbit. I mean, those are the obvious things. Those are the normal. We are looking for things that are not obvious. Things that not everybody sees. Things that no one pays attention to. And this is my tip, number three. Wherever you go, hospitals, parks, the street, sub-kitchens, be prepared to be there for at least one hour. And this is the reason. The first 30 minutes, you will see what we usually see. But it's only when we get tired. It's only when we get bored that we start seeing things that we don't usually see. Like not common behaviors and not obvious details. And that is what we are looking for. After we did this exercise like 10 or 12 times and shared them with the team, we were finally ready to start talking to homeless. And that is the second step, interviewing. We started with this format, this template called the extreme user poster. So it's a small box for a picture, some details, and a lot of room for quotes. Now when we talk about interviewing, you will always find tons of structure questionaries, structure surveys, and tons of templates with open-ended questions. This I think people might punch me in the face for saying this, but this is my tip, number four. Forget about questionaries. You don't need them, and you don't want them. So this is the way it goes. You see a homeless person, you just approach him, you smile and simply say hi. How is your day going? What are you doing? Are you reading? What are you reading? Oh, where did you get that book? The library, a public library. Well, would you mind if I sit down for a few minutes? Thank you. My name is Ricardo, by the way. What is your name? Oh, Diana. I like that name, Diana. It's kind of a Latino sexy name. So what are you going to do this afternoon? What did you do last night? What about the last weekend? Do you have family? Fear, fear of what? Terrifying? How terrifying it is. Now you have a conversation, and that is what you are looking for. I think that in one hour, I learned much more about any of those people that what I have learned from my friends in the first two months. My first conversation was with a panhandler, then a second one. By the third conversation, I was talking to someone, a nice lady who works at Starbucks. Then it took me to a security guard who works at Best Buy. By the fifth conversation, I was talking to a very young, nice, pretty lady who works at Macy's. All of them homeless, sleeping in their cars or in a shelter. There are between 6,000 and 7,000 homeless in Washington, DC. Now, I like volunteering. I usually do sometimes a shelter, sometimes sub-kitchens. So I've seen quite a number of homeless. 600, 800, 900. I just wonder where the other 6,500 are. And I can guarantee you that each of you, know at least one person who can not afford a roof. You just don't know. And you don't know why? Because they are hiding. Because it's shameful, it's painful, it hurts. You don't show your face. Especially if you have a job or kids and you want to keep it that way as long as possible. Nobody comes to you and says, hi my name is Ricardo, I'm homeless. The stories that I heard are shocking, depressing, and very sad. I think that most of the time my hands were shaking. 26 out of 30 people that I talked to didn't have any other option at all. Four of them have run away from home, especially because of domestic violence. Five ladies had left their husbands who had all the money. 24 out of those 30 people used to have a job as we do. They used to pay taxes as we do. They just for some reason got laid off and couldn't find another job before it was too late and everything fell apart. There are thousands of kids going through the foster care system every year. At the age of 16, they are out. Little education, no training, no family, no jobs. Where do they go? There is no place to go for those kids. People with mental illness, yes, sure. But that is the small portion. And unfortunately, it's the portion that we usually see on the streets. Now, in order to understand certain things like government programs, shelters, social workers, how to find a copy of your ID when you apply for jobs, how to deal with storage for your belongings, or how to deal with the lack of a physical address when you are sending out job applications. In order to understand all those little things, we use this very useful and common tool called Journey Maps. This is my tip number five. In this case, it was not just about identifying the steps or the pain points or the time windows in a process. It was about emotions, feelings, ups and downs and moments of joy. And you will be surprised at the things that you can learn. Now, all those government programs just blew my mind. I have six or seven examples. I will give you just one, the simplest one, shelters. So they open at 6 p.m. You line up for two hours. If you are lucky, you get a spot for that night. But people with mental illness have priority. So you will hear the entire night people laughing, crying, yelling, moving stuff around. And you can get robbed because there is no place to put your belongings. So every hour you wake up for one reason or another, all scared, just checking if you have all your belongings with you. Now, I wonder who can have some rest that way? And in the morning, there are 200 or 300 people trying to take a shower. But there are only 10 showers. And in any case, you have to be out by 7 a.m. because the shelter closes during the day. Now, that's if you got lucky the night before and got a spot for that night. Because if after lining up for two hours, you didn't, now your challenge is different. Now you have to find two or three dollars to get on a bus, cross a part of the city, find another shelter. But guess what? You're already late, three hours late because two hours before, that shelter got full. And in any case, in a very early in the morning, you will find yourself on the streets again. If you still have a job, like construction, retail, grocery stores, you just figure out how to clean up yourself and go for that job. If you don't have one, you just need to figure out how to survive that day. Now, at this point, we had enough material to develop some concepts. However, we wanted to go farther and we wanted to go deeper. We wanted to understand why a homeless person makes some decisions the way they do. Because remember, every single behavior that we see is a consequence. It's just a secondary behavior. It's a secondary reaction. So we wanted to go for the reasons. Actually, not even for the triggers, but for the underlying causes. And that's why you use some templates like this one. Empathy 360. What you think, what you see, what you do, how you feel, and some influencers. We learn a lot. Like for example, when you hit the street, some things happen, always. Very quickly, you lose the sense of time. So Monday is the same than Wednesday. Thursday is the same than Saturday. Sunday might be different because you see a lot of people coming to the city just to watch a football game. Next week is not even in my mind. I don't understand what it means. It's too far away. And in a matter of months, you lose the sense of money, or better, the way you understand money. The second thing that happened is that very quickly you start going on a survival mode. So food and shelter is your only priority. And I can tell you, after one week, that it's exhausting, and it's pretty much like a full-time job. Very quickly, you start feeling isolated. Nobody talks to you. Nobody makes eye contact to you. You are invisible. You are forgotten. Basically, you feel abandoned. And you start being seen like a problem for society. And the last thing is that the longer you stay, the more hopeless you will feel. Because very quickly, you lose your social skills. You lose the capacity to set goals and the short-term decision-making just disappear. Now, if no human being talks to me for three weeks, I will start talking by myself. If I don't have any goals in life at all, I guarantee you, in two or three months, I will become a different person. And you won't recognize me. If I wake up every hour, every day, I will be exhausted and going crazy in two weeks. So if I see a bottle of wine, I will drink it all. Not because I'm an alcoholic, just because I know that if I drink it all, I will be able to have six hours in a row of sleep. So that is common sense. And also neuroplasticity. Someone says that the street causes mental illness and I kind of agree now. So check out that term if you have never heard about it, neuroplasticity. Now, once we have all that information, behavior scans, empathy 360, journey maps, we print them out and place them along the wall. It looked like this. The question here is, how can we make all this information actionable? And that might be a topic for an entire talk. So I will summarize it this way. The first day, we packed every single important detail in sticky notes, place them on the wall and have tons of conversations. The second day, we play with them around, move them around, have tons of conversations again, until we found categories. The third day, we kept doing the same thing and having more conversations until we found patterns. By the fourth day, we got affinities. And it was here at the affinity level when some magic started to happen. And we started to see things in a completely different way. I will give you one example. We came out with this. So let me walk you through that curve. What does it take to become homeless? So sadly, not that much. Two and a half million Americans are evicted from their homes every year. When you compare three numbers, like the cost of housing, the level of savings and the average income per household, which means two parents and two kids in average, you can easily see that seven out of 10 Americans are tri-paid checks away from become homeless. So let me rephrase that. The 70% of the country is tri-paid checks away from become homeless. It means that if anything happened to one of those parents, if one of them, those get laid off, get sick, if one of those die, if one of them let, or if they get divorced, if there is a financial crisis or a natural disaster, you are done. In two or three months, you will run out of savings. And if you have family members or close friends with extra space, you might stay there for a few weeks or a few months. Otherwise, you will go directly to the second section. And in this section, we have shelter and a shelter homeless. And also that portion of people with mental illness. Now, this is a completely different word that we don't understand and we don't want to understand. It's just about social isolation. Sadness, anger, being forgotten, being invisible. And the third section, we call it recovering homeless. Because certainly, some people are able to make it. But we found that it's a very slow process. It's very challenging to maintain the drive. And pretty much in every single case, something happened. There was an external push that changed the course of things. Do it by yourself is pretty much impossible. If you don't have a support system, every single night that you go to bed, you will have that fear of falling back again. And that feeling basically kills your drive. So when we look at this, what would be a good point for intervention? Prevention? Sure. But remember, you are going down the hill very fast. You are facing eviction. What is going to happen with my kids? What is going to happen with my belongings? You don't have time for anything. So financial planning, as the government proposed, financial literacy, it doesn't make sense. It is too late. Here, remember, food and shelter. Now, housing might be really cool. But for so many different factors, housing itself is not a solution. And it's unrealistic. Maybe for 50, for 100 homeless, maybe. For thousands, I don't think so. But here, we find people who still have some hopes and motivation, people who still have some dreams and are willing to give it a try at least to small things and probably incremental things. So we chose this area for an intervention. And then, we established the personas, actually two types. And now that we know who we are designing for, we have to translate all that research into some actionable items. And those actionable items are called insights. Now, since it took me a while to understand that concept, this is my tip number seven. An insight is kind of a statement that explains someone's word. In our case, it explains the word of a homeless person without bias, without opinion, and without judgment. My tip number eight. You can work with one or two insights as long as they are clear and strong enough. We have six or seven, I will just mention some. You don't become homeless when you lose your house. You become homeless when you realize that you don't have a support network. There is something we call visibility paradox because when you become homeless, you hide yourself. It's shameful, it's painful, and you try to keep it that way as long as possible. But at the same time, you don't want to feel invisible. You don't want to be forgotten. So there is a big paradox over there and very challenging to deal with. The lack of goals leads to a lack of purpose in life. And the lack of purpose always opens the door for a survival mode. There is something we call sleep because at this point, stabilization loses its priority. There is one more. Homelessness doesn't mean panhandling. They are completely different things related but completely different. And this one apply probably for the United States. That device, a cellphone, becomes the last link that you have with society. In a world that nobody talks to you, in a world that nobody makes eye contact to you, that device is the last link with human beings. You will be surprised of how many people have Facebook accounts and use it in a daily basis. Now, once we refine all those insights and work on them for a few days, we pack them in a document called design criteria. And it looks like this. This is just a list of requirements, of a set of elements that should be present in any solution. Now, when we say requirements, we are not talking about the solution should be written in a sixth grade English level. Or the solution should follow usability standards. Or the solution should be simple and easy to understand. We are talking about things that are not obvious. And this is my tip number nine. The best way to do it is answering the question, how are we going to address each of those insights that we got? I will give you an example. In order to address the lack of purpose, the solution should create and maintain a goal-setting mentality. In order to address the lack of purpose, the solution should provide opportunities to learn, at least social and life skills. And you can go on and on. And once you finish that document, we are ready for thinking. And that is the next step. Now, there are tons of tools and techniques to brainstorm. Just choose one for the first day, a different one for the second day, and another one for the third day. Because as a team, you will be working on brainstorming through different days. And actually every day, you should start from scratch. After a few days, you will get a list of small, simple ideas. And this is my next tip. When you are brainstorming, you don't just justify or explain your ideas. You just throw them out. It's like in an ideal world, we should have, boom, one or two sentences, that's it. At the end of the day, when you got 50 or 100 ideas, you are ready to go for the next step. Now, if those are like small, simple building blocks, individually, just far from each other, for a few days, you start playing with that list. Just mix them up, move them around until you find concepts. Once you find some concepts, you put them in a small template like this one. It's just the name of your concept, one or two sentences explaining it, the needs and the benefits. That's it. When we came back as a team, we basically find two, three, five, eight, 10, 15, 20 concepts. Now, some of those concepts became like dates for us. A few of them became like girlfriends, and a couple of them became like babies for us. So the question is how you choose one. Now, remember, here we are looking for the wow concept. And this is my tip number 10. A wow concept is not wow because it's so much innovation, or it's so creative. A wow concept is wow because it has the potential to change a behavior that we intended to change. So let me repeat that. A wow concept is wow because it has the potential to change a behavior that we intend to change. So this is the way you do it. Remember the design criteria document? Well, you choose the concept that matches the most criteria. And once you have it, you put it in an app in pitch, which is a very simple concept. You explain your idea, the benefits, something about the execution, and the business case. And this is what we are going to prototype and test, which is the next step. Now, I don't want to spend much time talking about prototyping or testing. I prefer to show you what we did. We work on three different types of prototypes. The first one was paper-based. The second one was one-page flowchart. And the third one was a mock-up. So this is a crowdfunding platform. It's an already proven business model. But it has three twists. The first one is about videos. Two 30-second videos. In the first one, you will tell me who you are, why you are there, what is your campaign about. And in the second one, you will offer something of value, like if you know how to play guitar, play guitar for 30 seconds. If you know how to dance, just dance for 30 seconds. If you know how to tell jokes, just tell jokes for 30 seconds. The second part is a community-building component. It's like an interactive blog when you can leave comments, advice, suggestions, tips about my campaign, about myself. And actually, it's a very nice tool for social workers to communicate with homeless, because right now, there is nothing in the market like that. And the third part is an incremental goal component. So you don't ask for $30,000 for a house. You start with $100 for a digital camera, because you like digital photography. Then once you are successful, you ask for $200 to buy a digital printer, because you want to print out those pictures and sell them. Once you are successful, you can go higher, and maybe asking for $350 to get a tablet, because you want to get some online classes on digital photography and so on. This is my next tip. Don't waste your prototyping. Even the mock-ups look very cool, but the only thing that you need to test is your mouth and a piece of paper to take notes. And this is the reason. If you have a good concept, you might be able to explain it in 30 to 60 seconds, and then get 30-minute conversation from there. So forget about building prototypes and leave your laptop at home. Once we have all that information from the feedback, we make some adjustments, some changes, and then we come back with the team, mentors, and advisors. We started talking about the curve, so the curve that we saw before. The insights were very solid. The idea basically covered a lot of stuff that we found in the sites. But the question was, did you guys realize that now you have two different types of users? Because you have homeless and you have donors. So if you want this to work, if you want to get some traction, you need to understand why we give, how we give, who and when gives. So we just look at each other and, well, sounds like design thinking again? Yeah, sure. And we went back from there again, but applying the same framework to donors. Now, I'm not going through the whole process, but I will give you the insights that we found. The first one, a lot of people believe in transforming other people's lives, and I strongly agree. It's a really good feeling when you can stand up in front of a group of kids and tell your story with the hopes that at least one life will change because of that story. Giving is basically a legit financial transaction, nothing different than what corporations do. Three things can happen. You feel good, you feel bad, or you feel nothing. If you don't do anything, you won't feel anything. If we don't give, but we think about it, we will feel bad. But if we give, we feel good. So basically, we are buying that feeling. It's not about the recipient, it's not about the homeless person in this case. It's about us, me, me, and me. A lot of people like giving, like $1, $5, some people give away $1,000. Some other people like me give time away. But we don't usually see any transformational process. Sometimes we don't even know the person. We just give and done. The transaction is done. We never see any progress or anything improving around someone's life. And in order to this, to work, the homeless person should feel vulnerable. But the donor should feel vulnerable, too. And those two vulnerabilities should meet at some point. And based on all that, we realized that the crowdfunding platform, it was just the entry point for homeless and donors to meet. And underneath, we could build a bunch of services, focus on how to improve the life and skills and opportunities for those people. So this is an ongoing project, and of course I cannot say much about it, but from the slides, you can figure it out. The execution doesn't really matter. In design thinking, we try to design for the future. What is going to happen in 30 years from now, in 40 years from now, that takes out the constraint of technology. What we are looking for here is for concepts, and those concepts don't have to do anything with execution, which is the technology. Now, I'm not a big fan of take-aways on large conferences like this one, but I will give you three. The first one is for people like me, in the agile space, like agile coaches. We are really good at product development. We are really good at transforming organizations, and we are really good at building high-performance teams. But this might be the missing part of agile product discovery. The second take-away is for people in the design thinking field. A lot of people say that this is a framework for innovation, because innovation happens at the end. I will argue that innovation happens here, because if you have a good and solid research, the rest of the process is straightforward. And the third take-away is for people like my mom. Certainly, it's unrealistic to think that we can end homelessness. But there are certain actions, little things, that we can do every day. Simple things like saying hi, how is your day going? Happy Thursday, making eye contact. Those little things take us 10 seconds, 20 seconds maybe. But for the other person, those little actions can bright their days. And they will stick in their minds for a couple of days. So certainly, we cannot change the world. But with those little actions, we can change someone's world. Thank you very much. So I guess we have time for questions, if we have. Do you have a mic? Thank you. I think it's a very interesting presentation, and the whole reason that the title was so attractive, that brought us to sit here today. One of the concepts around design thinking, and probably in your journey, you kind of imbibed a lot of it. But my question is, can this design, the outcome of this thinking process, can it be made scalable? As I look around in my country, I find this problem out there in large numbers. So when we go through this kind of a process where we look at a large metropolis of the world, does the design thinking stop there, or is there an attempt of that group to say, okay, can we replicate? Not only this group, but from a message to design thinkers other than this as well, can models become scalable? Is there a scope to do that? Okay, this is what I think. First of all, it's a framework that you can apply anywhere, at any time, for whatever you have in mind. Actually, a lot of people ask, what was the concept, what was the product that you were developing? No, you just go there and try to learn as much as you can. And you will see what happened on the process. So from that point of view, you can apply that framework anywhere. Now, in terms of this capability, it's scalable, probably the final concept you can scale it, and the way you execute it, and you bring it to life. That's different. You can accommodate that and make some adjustments, depending on the market, or the industry, or the country, the culture. But the concept, what you get out of this framework, that can be transferable anywhere, because that is what you are basically learning about the world. Yeah? Okay. Thanks for the wonderful session. So I just had one question when you did the interviews, where people open enough to talk to you, or how was that experience? When you do interview people as a part of your design thinking process, where people open to talk to you, because that's the main part in the design thinking process, correct? So I have tons of stories of what happened at that time. I thought that it was going to be easier, right? So the first time you just observe, right? You sit down, go out, and observe, and start thinking, oh, next time I will approach someone and say hello, or say something, right? The first time that you are going to do that, you feel that you are dying. It's not that easy, especially because it's homeless people. Sometimes they don't react the way you expect. Sometimes it's not that easy to create like a conversation or some chemistry there. The first time I tried and I couldn't. I say hello, but I didn't know what to say after that. The second time, yes, hi, may I ask you a few questions? No. Oh, thank you. Hey, do you have five minutes? No. Why they are going to talk to you? Usually, we don't even realize that they are human beings. We don't talk to them. We don't make eye contact. So for them, some stranger coming and trying to initiate a conversation, it doesn't make sense. So the first answer is going to be no. Then I think I was a coffee shop, just like thinking, like how I can, maybe it's the introduction. Maybe it's the words that I'm using. Maybe it's the way that I'm, you know, the clothes that I'm wearing. And just a girl that I saw sitting down outside, but I didn't thought that she was a homeless. She just came and she asked for if I could, if she could use my cell phone to make a phone call. I said, sure. And at the end, she was very polite, thanking for that, asking about my name. She left. She came back and we started to talk. We talked for probably two hours or so. That day, I think I just lost that fear. And I just broke the ice over there. And the next time, I was just doing what I mentioned before. Just say hello, smile, and just have a conversation. As long as you are sincere, they will feel that. So it's not that complicated. And from there, we just can get whatever. You stated that we can apply this 12-step strategy anywhere. Looking at organization level, do you feel that the execution of these points would be limited in terms of keeping in mind the kind of tasks we are busy with, budget constraints, resources? Do you think we have that much of time to learn from each other and apply this strategy from a design thinking point of view? There are different ways to do it. You can hire a consultant company, like a third party, which is going to be expensive. And if you have budget constraints, it's going to be more complicated. But you can do it inside. You can hire a coach or you can actually do it by yourself, because it's not that complicated. Now, if you want to do it in a perfect way, maybe you need some professional guidance. But if you want to do it by yourself or for small things, like running a pilot, it's not that complicated. You can build an internal team and it doesn't need to be like a full-time job for them. It can be one hour a day. It can be five hours a week. It can be during the weekends. It depends on the industry or the projects that you are working on. Probably what is more time consuming is going out and trying to find those final users. But you can do that in the evening, at night, during the weekends. And actually, if you sell it as a fun stuff to do, as a fun project, people will just do it for fun, right? So you don't really need to have a big budget for that. After you do the exercise the first time and probably the second time, you learn those little tricks. So by the third or the fifth time, it's going to be much, much easier and more effective, is what I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah? Okay. Thank you very much.