 Aloha, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. A nation of immigrants. You can go to love in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to love in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk, or a Japanese. But anyone from any corner of the earth can come to love in America and become American. A nation of immigrants is a bi-weekly talk show featuring the lives of immigrants, knowledge and culture, diversity, and inclusion. In 1958, U.S. Senator JFK published A Nation of Immigrants. JFK proposed liberalizing immigration law based on his argument that the United States is a nation whose population is predominantly made up of non-native people, immigrants, and refugees. Today on A Nation of Immigrants, we are very delighted to Ha Yan Wang, Wang Ha Yan, Assistant Director of the University of Minnesota, China Center. She came to the U.S. in 2003 to pursue a graduate degree at Stanford University and the University of California, Santa Barbara. For more than 13 years, she has worked to promote the U.S.-China exchange and collaboration in the higher education sector. Before she joined the China Center, she was Assistant Director and Lecturer in the China and Asian Pacific Studies program at Cornell University. Welcome, Ha Yan. So glad you are here. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Chan. I'm really honored to be here on the show. We are totally ours. Well, we know each other for many years. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yes. And it's always an absolute pleasure to working with you on so many projects with the China Center and with the community. But we never had really had a chance to sit down together, just talk about ourselves. Now it's a golden opportunity for me to ask you about questions. So please tell us about your life journey and professional career. From your facial bio, obviously, we know about your degrees and you came to the States in 2003, three years later than me. But you also pursued multiple degrees in the United States. And just tell us your family background, which college you went to in China, your high school, your parents, whatever you want to share with us, please. Sure. A bit more about myself. I was born in Shanghai just a few years after the normalization of the US-China relationship and also after the launch of the open and reform policy. So as one of the post-80s generation, I came of the age when China gradually opened up its economy and also its society to the Western world. Unlike my parents' generation, who may be the Americans as imperialism or paper tiger, I grew up watching Tom and Jerry, Transformers, Growing Pangs, and Titanic. So these were my first impressions of the US culture. When I graduated from Fudan University with a bachelor's degree in Chinese language and literature trip, I got a job offer from Shanghai TV station as a news reporter. But in the same week, I also received a graduate school admission with full scholarship from the history department of Stanford. While now looking back, without much hesitation, I chose the latter out of young curiosity of a bigger world, I think. And I came to the US in the year of 2003. As a Shanghai girl, I barely left my hometown for the first 21 years of my life. You may not believe that I hadn't even been to Beijing before I came to the US. While now looking back from year 2022, my landing in San Francisco airport in September 2003 marked the real start of my adulthood. It was the first time I took an airline, the first time I had a bank account, and the first time I rented a place of my own. Well, as an international student, I had an incredibly rich learning and life experience at Stanford and later at UC Santa Barbara. Despite the language barriers, cultural shock, and all the other challenges a newcomer would have, I felt very welcome and well accommodated to this country with generous help of everyone I met. This was also one of the reasons why I chose international education as my career, because I personally experienced this and I benefited so much from this. So I was eager to facilitate more of these opportunities for students like me, both in the US and in China. So after my graduation, I spent eight years being a lecturer and assistant director for the China and Asia Pacific Studies program, which is an undergraduate major at Cornell University. And now I continue to be part of the international education business at the University of Minnesota's China Center. Thank you so much for sharing. It's wonderful to know more about you. And Shanghai is my favorite city in China. Yeah, absolutely. I was born and grew up in Beijing, but I love Shanghai much more. I visited the Shanghai multiple. Which district are you from? Tony. Tony district. Yes, great. Yeah, that's the center of the center. I went back to China last year and I was quarantined in Shanghai. Well, it's not a very awfully present experience, but at least it's in Shanghai. So it feels a little bit better. But looking at your journey, I see a lot of parallels of my journey. Obviously, I'm a little bit older than you or much older than you. I considered a few years ago, I published an article, co-authored an article with my mentor and called The Luckiest Generations. So we compare the luckiest generations in the United States and in China. And we concluded in the US, the luckiest generation was the baby boomers. And in China, the luckiest generation is my generation. My generation basically means we grew up in the late 60s and early 70s. And then we went to college. We grew up, we spent our teenager years in the 1980s and we went to college after 1989. My argument, why my generation is a luckier generation than your generation is. Because I'm going to give you time to rebuttal. But my argument is 1980s, China was poor. But China has a strong hope to join in the globalization, to revitalize and to culturally, it's renaissance. Materially, we were not rich. But the society was full of hope and positive energy. And then we went to college in early 1990s, when tuition was still free. Tell me whether or not you pay tuition. I didn't pay college tuition, neither graduate tuition. But obviously, when I left China, pursue a studies in the United States, I have to give that all back. But if you decided to stay in China, you don't need to give it back. And so that's our, and then we came, we had the chance either stay in China or come study abroad. We have many, many different options. And the timing was couldn't be better. Tell me whether or not you think your generation is better, equal, or not as lucky like us. Well, I can see your point. I, well, for example, I did pay my college tuition, but so when I came to the US, I didn't have to pay back to the country anything because I paid my own college tuition. But why I was lucky was that back in my time, the college tuition was quite minimal. So it was like a few hundred dollars a year. So that was quite minimal. So we paid this minimal tuition and we didn't have to pay anything back when we came to the US. So I think, I think we are also a lucky generation. And I totally agree with you that the 80s. And also, I would say arguably the 90s is an era that's full of hope. And then the whole country is opening itself to the Western world. And people are so eager to see the world outside. I really missed that. Yeah, I agree with you. May I also add that early 2000 was also a good time. It just seems everything is on track to the right direction. But I'm glad you paid a little bit tuition, but I accept your rebuttal that you were lucky too. But I was paid by the government for my college and the graduate years. I remember my college, each month I was paid like 35 yuan in 1991. And later I think that rise to 50, 55 yuan or something in 1985. And in graduate school, I started my graduate school. I was paid a little bit over 300 yuan. And when I finished graduate school, I was paid about more than 500 yuan. So I consider myself pretty lucky. Even I have to give all that back to the education authority when I decided to study abroad. Anyway, I don't want to digress too much. But when was your last time in China? Last time, that was December 2019. That was right before the start of the pandemic. Yeah, I feel extremely lucky that I made that trip. On that trip, along with my colleague at our China office in Beijing, we met with a few partners and alumni in China. And we visited some of the China offices of other US universities. But I feel really, really grateful that I made this trip right before the COVID. And I did get a chance to briefly visit my family in Shanghai. Now, it's extremely hard to travel back to China. According to the latest policy, you need four COVID tests before you can even get bored down the bike. Yeah, antigen test. I assume you had your booster already? Yeah, your booster, yeah. But you know, we have this CDC vaccination record and this little white card. And for my entire two months in China, during the quarantine, out of the quarantine, travel, nobody look at it. It's the most useless thing you can present to the healthcare workers to argue that you are healthy. They only look at PCR tests. They only look at all these kind of tests. So whether or not the travel restrictions will loosen up, we have no idea. Probably this year. So I assume you don't have any travel plan to China this year, do you? I hope I don't have to. Well then, I hope that you can communicate with your parents, your family and friends in Shanghai via FaceTime and VChat. But it's different. I talk to my family and friends on VChat and FaceTime all the time, but it's still very, very different. So I can tell you before the pandemic, when I travel to China, we have no direct flight from Minnesota to Beijing. So I have to transfer somewhere either in Chicago, Seattle or in Tokyo or in Hong Kong. My favorite is Seattle because it's easy and it's Delta. So I fly from Minneapolis to Seattle and then from Seattle directly to Beijing. From the time I walk out of my house in Minnesota to the time I walk in my parents' apartment, it was 25 hours, 25 hours. And the last trip I made last year, the time when I walk out of my house in Minnesota, to the time I saw my parents in person and hugged them for 25 days. 25 days. 25 days journey. According to the current rules, it will jump to 32 days because of there was one, there is one week quarantine requirement before boarding and four COVID tests. Anyway, we hope that we are already touched the bottom and things will improve in the coming days. Well, we feel hope, do we? And after 2020 election, there are still a lot of issues to be resolved between China and United States, but just as normal people. And we feel some change with the Department of Justice just announced they basically abandoned the China initiative and very much targeting Chinese-American scientists and professors at a higher education institution. It's controversial, but I'm glad the Department of Justice did the right thing, at least not a brand-new age to give it a very cool, apparent racial profiling impression. And also the trade relationship appears to be normal and the two countries are collaborating on a lot of climate change, environmental protection, many issues, and as Chinese students are coming here, well, unfortunately, American students are not going there at this time. But Chinese-Americans and Chinese students in this country are still, in the back of their mind, they still remember not long ago that was totally, totally different in the environment. So we all familiar with President Roswell, FDR's executive order, 1966, Japanese-American internment. And particularly from 2016 to 2020, there was a very strong feeling that Chinese are being targeted in this country. And even some Chinese-American began to fear similar treatment from the authority here, should the US-China tension escalate. So I was just curious about your comments. What's your general comments? And because your job is building US-China bridges and to ensure, and there's no miscommunication, no misunderstanding, but the more is change and collaboration. My thoughts, will the Japanese-American internment happen again? Well, that's a tricky question. My answer is no, and yes. I'm saying no here because now it is part of the common sense that the executive order 1966 was totally unconstitutional. And the Congress issued a formal apology, I think, in 1988. So if you were asking whether US do this again to Chinese-Americans, would people of Chinese or Asian descent to be incarcerated and sent to isolated camps, I don't think so. The country has clearly learned something from its history and the internment of a certain ethnic group didn't, well, we can see it didn't happen after the terrorist attack of 901 or the subsequent bombing of Afghanistan. I don't think this will happen to the people of, let's say, Russian descent today or to Chinese-American in future in the particular form of internment. If anything happened, not a word between the two superpowers. However, does it mean that we as Asian-Americans don't need to worry? Of course not. The history of racism against Asian and Asian-Americans, or so to speak, the others in US goes back more than 150 years. Fortunately, this country has this ability to make enormous progress from the very beginning through its mechanism of self-correction. We have seen apologies from the US Congress and Senate for the Japanese internment and for the Chinese Exclusion Act. However, we have to admit that the mentality of racism is still there. It takes different forms whenever the environment is ripe. In the past few years, the anti-Asian sentiment has become another, I would say it's another pandemic that swept through this country along with COVID-19. We have already seen alarming racial profiling, scapegoating crimes against people with Asian appearances and systemic, just like you just said, systemic witchcraft of the researchers with China connections. The tensions between the US and China would only make all these even worse. As an Asian-American woman, I do have all the reason to be concerned. On the other hand, I do hope what me and my colleagues at the China Center have been doing here would help build mutual understandings across ethnic groups in our community, and hopefully we can make things a bit better. Thank you so much. That's very well said. I agree with everything you just said. And you and Ms. Jung Branzinski at the China Center are doing a fantastic job and deserve our utmost respect and admiration. And the two function and operate under the very difficult circumstances for the past few years. And you have done a terrific job from the Building Bridges lecture to the Considering China webinar series from the China Town Hall and recently from the China Bridge Challenge competition among the American students. Everything is to make things better and not make things worse. And you are right. You know, we are not a target number one right now because Russians become target number one. There are some obviously, you know, the war and in Ukraine is very, very tragic. There are, you know, people to be responsible for the terrorist, you know, action against civilians, but not the Russian students in this country. But you know, some lawmaker even proposed to kick all the Russian students out of this country. And we hear some, you know, very similar rhetoric in a targeted to the Chinese students in the past few years. So who knows what the word going into it's going, but xenophobia, you know, one of the professor you invited to your webinar talk about the United States is a nation of immigrants, but the United States is also simultaneously a nation of xenophobia. The xenophobia is a racial profiling have been deeply embedded in the nation's gene. So I have a same question to you as a same question I asked for to our last guest see her who is the Executive Director of the Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans and she gave her an answer. I want to hear your same, your answer to the same question. And the question started as this, a candidate for the US Senator in Delaware tweeted, most third world migrants cannot assimilate into civil societies, prove me wrong. You know, both you and I has presumably come from the third world country. She got a rebuttal from a Vietnamese American author, Vietnam now my old time favorite contemporary author. And he a Vietnam, Vietnam replied, third world refugee here. I had a PhD in English, and I won a police prize in fiction. What have you done? So my question is not a comment. I don't need, you know, I think it goes without saying that the candidate's comment is totally, totally doesn't worth our comments. But it's important for us to think about this. What is a simulation? And how does a simulation work with the concept of diversity and inclusion has been, we have heard that Oh, it's very hard to get into the mainstream American society. And it's very hard to assimilate. So what was your definition of assimilation? And what's your view on assimilation? First of all, I feel sorry for the very ignorance of the Senate candidate. And like you said, there's no need to list all the great examples of very well achieved and very successful third world immigrants in this country. Beyond that, however, I would like to rethink the world assimilation. You know, there can be different layers of assimilation by socio economic definition, the language, behaviors, norms, values, intermarriage or what else socioeconomic status. However, the presumption here is that there's only one dominant culture in this country. And that minorities need to adopt to it and ideally become indistinguishable over time. So when I first came to the States, I got a lot of advice from some older immigrants that I need to enter the mainstream of the US society by doing what Americans do and like what Americans like. For example, watching football and going to a pub. 20 years later, I still prefer soccer to the ball and I still hate being in a pub. But I don't feel any less American because of that. Because to me, the spirit of being American is not about having one dominant culture and the silencing the others. It's not about having a unanimous society where everyone follows the same routine. People of different cultural backgrounds came to this land and together they made it their home. This country was designed to be inclusive, adaptable and diverse under the core value of freedom and personal liberty. So the country also flourishes because of this dynamic diversity. So to me, being American doesn't mean that I need to talk, look or behave like anyone else here. It rather means stepping up as part of the community and contributing to this community and this country was who I am and what I have. Of course, all the ethnic groups need to conform to the core values of this country and naturally people of diverse backgrounds will learn and adapt to each other on this land. But this is not a one-way street. So instead of the word assimilation, maybe integration will be a better word in my mind. Beautifully said. I cannot agree with you more. America is an idea. It is just an idea. And like President Biden said, it's a concept and we work toward that concept together. And if I can, according to President, if I can summarize American in one word, possibilities. If we all read the Constitution of the United States and this document, we accepted the document and you'll become an American. And that is why I quoted President Ronald Reagan at the beginning of the show. Anywhere from any corner of the world can come to America and become an American as long as you accept the idea. The idea is equal protection, due process and rule of law. So I think we are running out of time and I love hearing more about your journey. I really want to come back to the show. But I remember you mentioned that you came to the United States in your early 20s. I came to the United States in my late 20s. But time travel permitted. If you were given some advice to yourself in your 20s, what would you say? What would I say? Be brave, step out of the ivory tower if you can, and talk to your community people in real world. That's what I have to say. Good advice. Our last guest advice was be patient. I think I work on the tool to take both of your advice for myself. And finally, any books, movies, or documentary you enjoyed recently you want to recommend to our audience? Here is one. These days I've been reading this 19th century English novel called Fathland, a romance of many dimensions. I don't know if you've heard about that, but I read that along with my eight-year-old who's just started to learn geometry. Could you repeat it? And the author, you remember? Fathland, a romance of many dimensions. I heard of it. Is it good? This is a good. This is written by an English school master in 19th century. And this very satirical fiction is set in a two-dimensional world where all the characters are two-dimensional geometric figures. Where women are simple line segments and men are polygons. So basically, the more sides you have and the more symmetric you are, the higher the social status you have. So to speak, a circle would be considered the perfect shape. But one day, the narrator who is a square, Mr. Square, he was visited by a three-dimensional creature, Sphere. So from his two-dimensional point of view, he couldn't understand what a sphere is. All that he can see is a circle that is constantly changing in size. Can you imagine? Just a slice of the sphere, so that will be a circle. But it's constantly changing from a point to a bigger circle, a bigger one, a smaller one. So the square's mind was totally exploded. It was open to this brand new perspective, the dimension. And the sphere also lifted Mr. Square to tour him around the world with three dimensions. So that was a totally new experience for the square. But unfortunately, when he came back to his two-dimensional world, he found it really impossible to explain what happened, what he has experienced, to his colleagues, not to his peers in the two-dimensional world. He was trying so hard to say upward, not northward, but no one got what he's saying. That's very profound. Yeah, when I was reading this book, I found it really amusing to think of how difficult and yet important to break the cultural barriers and how likely the world you see and take for granted is not necessarily the way it is in the eyes of someone coming from a different perspective. I would recommend this book if you haven't read it already when you study geometry. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your recommendation. I have definitely checked it out. May I just final word? My recommendation would be Vietnamese-American author Vien Nam Nguyen. He has several books, many books, and all of them are just a jam. I highly recommend all of his fictions. They're just absolutely splendid authors and master the English language in the utmost epitome. All right, we are running out of time. I wish we would have time to continue our conversation. I want to thank you, Ha Yen, to take time to come to our show to share your life story and professional career and your insights and wisdom. Also, I want to thank you and Jun Brandinsky and all of your colleagues at the University of China Center for Building the Bridges Between the United States and China. We all hope that tomorrow will be better and at least will not be as bad as today. Let's just keep our hopes high. I think we will get through all of this. Thank you, Ha Yen. Thank you, Chen. Let's keep the source of hope and keep the door open. Thank you. Thank you, Aloha.