 Right. We'll come back, everyone, to our second lecture today on B.C. 310, Church and Ministry Administration. Let's pick up with some questions that we needed to listen to. Christopher has a question, and I think Kennedy has a question about privacy. Kennedy, do you want to bring your, you typed it in the chat, I see that. Talk about privacy. Did you have something specific on that, Kennedy? Yeah. What I just wanted to inquire is how to enforce policies or codes of ethics in terms of privacy. How can it be done? Yeah. So one, or at least the way we do it, one is we have it as part of our employment or staff guidelines. We let our staff know at the time of joining, when they are joining the church as a staff, we let them know that all data, actually individual date, people's date, information, because it's all in the system. So all data should be treated confidential. They're not allowed to use it for any use other than the ministry of the church. Also, when we have somebody like the accountants who are handling all the financial data, we get them to the finance, the accountant or the people handling the accounts. They sign an additional document of confidentiality because they're looking at all the finances. So other than for the work they're doing and for any other legal purposes, church finances should not be disclosed outside to public or discussed with other people. So, you know, just to reinforce that, hey, it's a privilege to be looking at all these numbers and know what's happening and where the contributions are coming from. But that has to be kept confidential. Another thing we do is pastors are not given information on who's making the contribution. So we have a pastoral team, but the pastoral team doesn't know which individuals in the congregation or outside are giving how much money. That is done intentionally so that the pastors are not biased when they minister to people. They don't know who's giving how much. They don't need to know. So that way whoever comes for prayer or ministry, they just treat everybody equally and fairly. It's only the accountant and the financial people who know, you know, and they may not know the names of the actual individuals who they are. So these are some things. And then of course, to the software systems in which all the data is, access to that is given to people who need that. And for example, we have and we will talk about this later. And also next semester course, we have a church management system. And then there everything is tracked because everybody's data is there. And then there is, of course, the log of who does what with what data. So that all of that is tracked. So people know that you cannot do anything with the data without it being tracked. So there is that sense of responsibility for those who have access to the data to handle it carefully. So these are all things that are done within the organization to ensure that the confidentiality, the privacy and the security of people and financial data within the organization. Good question. Chris, I will take your question, please. Yes. Thank you, master. My question is actually in relation to this dynamics of administration. And there's just a thought that, you know, the leadership skills in a church, which I think can, I know it can be incorporated in skills. Certainly, but I just think that if it is, if it is separated in a sense where, you know, as part of the dynamics, it really sort of focuses on the need for strong leaders. And I know that, you know, the session you've, or rather the last four Sundays you've spent on leadership. And I think it really talks, you know, to the need for the strong leadership and how churches also, you know, so grow and, you know, have different churches within that, you know, within the main church. Also, that also, you know, gives some level of understanding of, you know, what the kind of skills that are required and then, you know, how it, how it sort of, you know, can be used for interaction with, possibly even the government in a particular country or a city. And, you know, other external bodies that can, where the interaction is required. It also kind of makes it an important thing where, you know, a church doesn't have just one leader. And sometimes the leaders have, you know, let that, let that church stray. So, yeah, just, just a thought over here with regards to dynamics. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So it's good to, you know, I guess what Chris was saying is that it, this whole, all of this requires a skill which can come together when there are more people involved. And, and, you know, you can have more people, more leaders doing this and it doesn't have to be just one pastor, but leadership. Abraham's question in the chat for a group of 20 people, what is the first thing to consider in administration? Yes, Abraham, we're going to get into that from the very next chapter. And we will start explaining, you know, how to build this whole thing. How do you build it from ground up? Okay. So we're going to address that step by step. So as we journey through the course, that's what we're going to do. So, you know, just, just a quick background when APC started, we had a first Sunday service on February 18, 2001. And, you know, which is just an informal gathering in the house, in the living room and that's how the church started. We just had maybe 10, 12 people there. Now, the first thing that we did short, so in the beginning, the very first, you know, from the very first Sunday, I should write the account. So we had a little small book where whatever offering people put in a bag, accounted, put it there. And then I kept it aside because at that point we had not yet registered the church or we didn't have a bank account and just turned 12 people. So the first thing we had to do was to form a legal entity, which is what we're going to talk about in the next chapter and chapter three. So we were sure that, you know, God has called us to do this work and so there's no turning back. So we just got to go forward. First thing to do is to form a legal entity. We had a name. We knew we wanted to call the church, All People's Church. That was based on, you know, what we read in the book of Revelation, chapter five also in chapter seven where John sees, you know, people from all nations, tribes and tongues standing before God. So that's where the inspiration for all people came. So he said, okay, we'll call the church All People's Church. So we had that already in our mind. So the first thing was to go and get a legal entity formed. And so we went to a charter accountant, an accounting firm whom we knew and they helped us with the process of registering All People's Church as a legal entity. And then, so I will share how we go about it. And then, so to form a legal entity, you need at least three people. I'm talking about India. This could vary from country to country. But India, I think you need at least three people. So we waited for a little bit. We had to wait a couple of months till there were two other, another couple who whom I knew from a long time who had come and started to a part of it. That's how they're tending All People's Church. We were still very small, but they were there. And we had a good rapport, a good connection. I felt that it was God who sent them back, sent them to be part of this. And so four of us, Amy, my wife, myself, Georgie and his wife, Joyce, four of us were the initial trustees of that legal entity. Or you would call them, and different people call them different directors or the governing body or whatever. But here we locally call, for a religious organization here in India, we call them trustees. So they became the trustees. And with these four names on the trust, the legal entity was formed. And it was a simple process. You have to have all the paperwork done, go and register it with the government. And then once that is done, then we could open a bank account. So we opened a bank account right away in the name of All People's Church. So whatever money I had collected, you know, so the first few months when people gave offerings, we just collected it, kept it there. We were able to put it into the bank account other than the money that was spent for expenses. It was also recorded in a small notebook. And so we were still a small group of just 20 people or less at that time. But the legal entity was established. A bank account was opened. And then from then on, anybody who, you know, whatever offering came, we could deposit it in the bank account. And if people could also write checks in the name of All People's Church, it will go into the bank account. If people wanted to do direct transfer, you know, they could directly transfer it into the bank account. But that was kept separate. So we did that within the first few months of having started. I think it all, by June, it was all in place, right? So we started in February, March, April, May, June within the first four months. It was all put in place. And so that's how we started. And we did not have any paid stuff. I was, you know, I was running a business, a software business. So that was where my personal income would come. The church income was very small in those days. And so we didn't have any stuff, right? So the main expenses were for the renting of the venue and so on. And that's how it got started. And we'll get into that. Kennedy, I see a question from Kennedy. Is in order to tablet all the tithing of everyone in a church by the end of the year as done in some churches. Now, Kennedy, I would, so Kennedy's question is, should we record, you know, what each person is giving and tithing to the church? Now, we don't do that because in India, it's not a legal requirement. But in some countries, it's legally you have to do it. For instance, in the United States, you record what each one gives by their social security number. So that at the end of the year for the next next year, you send them a letter saying the previous calendar year you contributed so much and then therefore they could get a tax deductible tax deduction on it. So they get a tax benefit for contributing to a religious organization. In India, there's no tax benefit. So people give to the church, but they don't get any tax deduction or tax benefit. And so we do not track, you know, who gives what, no. So my response to that question would be, if it is legally required, do it. If it's not legally required, then there's no need to do it. Unless, yeah, I don't think it's even needed so that there is no bias towards anybody. But the software system that I'll talk about later on has the functionality. You can track it if needed. Okay. All right. So let's get into chapter three now. Just how do you get all of this started? Get off the ground. Right. So we've talked about in chapter two, we talked about the objectives. Now we get into chapter three. Right. So the first step that we would take is to form when I'm using a word called trust. Actually, this may not be the same word that you would use in your country. In India, religious entities call it trust, right? So it's called the church trust. But for instance, in the U.S., you would call it a nonprofit. So if I use the word trust, then think about it as a nonprofit and a religious nonprofit organization. So in your country, it may be called differently. Maybe I should change this word. Make it more genetic. But anyway, so when I say church trust, I mean a church nonprofit. And the first thing, of course, is to form this nonprofit as a legal entity and put in the governance that's going to take place. Right. So let me just share a few thoughts here. Now, why should there be church governance and why should the church be established as a legal entity? And some of the things that we need to keep in mind biblically, right? The first thing is the Bible teaches us to submit to civic authorities. So the church is functioning inside. While the church is a spiritual body, it's the body of Christ. We are people. We are citizens of the country. And as citizens of the country, we are supposed to submit to the civic authorities, Romans 13, 1-7. And so from that perspective, even the church as a legal entity should be in submission to the rules, the regulations of the government. Now, I realize that there are some people who will argue against this. They say, no, no, no, the church is about the government and the church doesn't have to submit to the government. But I don't subscribe to that. I believe that as citizens of the country, we must obey the rules and the laws of the country. And if we don't obey the rules and the laws, then of course the government has the right to take action against us. That is, even if, you know, the church, because you're not following the rules. So from a perspective of being submitted to authorities, we must follow the regulations so that everybody, you know, is obeying the law. Secondly, why is this church governance important so that we can be blameless in how we conduct ourselves in the ministry? You know, in second Corinthians chapter six, the apostle Paul is talking about the minister. And he says, you know, we give no offense in anything so that the ministry may not be blamed in the second Corinthians six and verse four. He says, you know, we, we commend ourselves as ministers to God was three and four. And we don't offend anything in any way so that the ministry may not be blamed. Maybe somebody can read it. I know I just quoted it, but it'll be nice if somebody could read that second Corinthians chapter six versus three and four, please. Second Corinthians after six was three and four. Go ahead. Giving no offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things, approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience in afflictions, in necessities, in distress. Notice he says verse three, you know, we give no offense and anything so that the ministry may not be blamed. That's so important. We don't want anybody to point a finger at the ministry and say, look, we're not doing what is right. Right. So that's a second reason why we should have good governance. Thirdly, we want to be honorable before God and men, especially in the way we handle money. And remember the contributions that are being given are donations. Many people are giving it out of the free will. And therefore there is so much more accountability to the public in the handling of the finances. So second Corinthians 821 Paul says, you know, we want to do whatever is honorable in the sight of God and man. And the context there is handling money. Second Corinthians chapter 8. And then at a personal level, of course, you want to have a clear conscience that you know that you're doing everything right and well. Otherwise your own conscience is going to tell you you're doing something wrong. So for all of these reasons, you know, governance accountability is very important. So how do you get started? And this is where Abraham, you know, he asked a question. So what I would say is wait until you see a core group of people, you know, who are part of the church, part of your ministry, they're going to be there. And then and then you register or you incorporate or you form a legal entity as soon as you can. Right. So you're getting your ministry started. We will be talking on that church planting course or, you know, whatever ministry you're getting started, you have a copy core group of people who are part of that vision. Once that happens, then form a legal entity as soon as possible. Don't delay. Why? Because if if you're not a legal entity, then doing the ministry can, you know, can can be questioned. People say, who gives the right to do this? You know, if you want to go rent a place, who's renting the place? You have a, you know, so that's so many things. But if you are a legal entity, then immediately you have the backing of the local government because you're entitled. You know, you have the legal rights to carry out whatever the activities of that organization have been stated as. I would encourage you to do that. Now, the problem, at least that what I observe in India, and I don't know how it is in other countries, but in India, what have what I've noticed very often is people who plant churches, they just keep running. You know, they start a service and they start doing things and they have not formed a legal entity. You know, for X and it makes things very difficult for them. And, you know, when the police come and ask, you know, hey, who gave you the right to do that? I mean, what are you doing? Because they're not legally registered. And then, of course, they will call it as persecution, but then, you know, the police are just doing their job that you've got to be, you've got to have some, you know, standing here to be. Having a church or running this. And even in terms of collecting money, you know, if the pastor is just collecting the offerings and putting it into his personal account. That is a dangerous thing, you know. But then many people do that because they haven't formed the legal entity. They just collect the offering. They put it in the personal account or just just run it run with that. So we can avoid all of these problems if you form the legal entity as soon as possible at your earliest. Now, why is that important forming a legal entity? It gives you credibility, you know, that people are not just doing things informally. Donors also will give to an organization because there's a legal name to it. There's a bank account, so on. It gives you separate entity status. That means, you know, you don't mix up the bank account of the organization with your personal things. These all are kept separate. There's also limited liability or you're protected so that if anything goes wrong, your personal belongings, your personal money or so on. It's not brought into you to the situation to handle any debt or liability, right? So there's also protection for the people who are leading it. You'll be able to enlist professional services. So if you want to hire an accountant or others, they will be willing to work for an organization and provide their services. In some countries, having a nonprofit registered gives you tax exempt status for the donors for those who give and so on. And you may also have access to grants and so on as a legal entity, right? And of course, you could incorporate your organization as a religious organization or as a non-government organization, typically an NGO. Now, that's the distinction we have here in India. In other countries, they may not necessarily have that distinction. Everything is a nonprofit organization. A nonprofit could be a religious or a social organization as well. But in India, we distinguish between a religious organization and a non-government which could be involved in social activities, right? So whatever that best suits the kind of work you do, you would incorporate that. But if it's a religious, you're doing Christian ministry, then definitely, you know, you would do it as a religious organization. What I feel is very wrong is to people don't want to say that they're doing religious work and they just form a non-government organization. And then they do religious work and then it kind of gets them into trouble. And so we should avoid that. If you're going to do religious work like teaching the Bible, preaching the Bible as part of what you're doing, as a core part of what you're doing, then it's better to be a religious organization. And make sure that there is no grounds on which the government can hold you against, you know, that you're registered as an NGO, but you're doing religious work. So anyway, those are things you need to think about very clearly. Or if you're going to be a school, then that's an educational organization. And the benefits for these organizations are different. Here at least in India, there are certain things that an NGO or an educational organization have which a religious organization will not have. And this can vary across countries. But the idea is form the right kind of organization appropriate for the kind of ministry you're going to do. A related question is, when should I form this entity? Like I mentioned earlier, do it as soon as possible, as early as possible. But there are of course certain things you need to be looking at. Make sure that, you know, you've got the work off the ground that it is gaining momentum. Understand what are the best options. Let me take some time to see, you know, should I form a religious reform, a non-government reform, educational, you know, try to understand which is the best option for what the kind of ministry you're doing. Have a core team because you will need more than one person to form the entity. So in most places, you need at least three people. There will be some initial expenses to get the work done. So you need to collect some sufficient funds. People can contribute and you hold that money in hand to pay for the expenses. You will need the help of a accounting firm or, you know, someone will help you do this to incorporate it. So contact them and you'll have to pay their fees as well. So make sure you have enough money for that. And then you need to finalize the articles of incorporation and I will go through a sample. So you need to have what we call as a trust deed or bylaws or articles of incorporation. You know, they use different language for it in different places, but you need to have that written out and I will have shared a sample of that. And then, you know, you need a core team. You need at least three people to form a legal entity. So for that, how would you select those people? Now, in some cases, you can, you know, if you're a spouse and you are doing work together, you know, so you can. But in some cases, you're not allowed to have a spouse or they have certain combination. That means two thirds of the people on the trust should not be related. Right. So husband and wife can be trustees, office bearers or directors, but you should have more people than the two. Right. So that there is there's a balance, especially in making decisions. So you have to follow those rules, depending on the country in which you are forming this entity. But typically you'll need people are aligned to the vision. People are willing to serve and people that you have a good relationship with, you know, you got to be very careful. Otherwise, if there is problems between the office bearers, then the whole organization will come to a standstill and things won't get done. There'll be a lot of conflict and so on. So you got to be careful. So bring get the right people in who've got the right heart, they're flowing with the vision and so on. And of course, you have the option to change people. So in the, you know, if there's a need, you know, there's a process by which people can step down and new people can be added in their place. Or you can expand the number of trustees or office bearers. Typically, not always, but typically you'd want to have an odd number of people like three or five or seven. So that, you know, in case you need to, you know, kind of take a vote on something, there is a decision that's like that. Okay. But it's not a, not a rule. It's just a general thing that people follow. And so then you need to write articles of incorporation. Let me just quickly go through a sample and, you know, this again varies from country to country. But here's the sample of, you know, what we did here for ABC. So when we formed our trust, our people's church, this is what a trust deed or the articles of incorporation would look like. You would name the people, you know, the four or five people or whoever. And in all this language, and then you will give the name of the trust. You'll have to make an initial, you know, amount of money that's being put into the organization. It could be any amount, small amount. And this is the name of the trust. So this would be all people's church. And then you say, what are the names and objectives? Right. So this is a religious trust. So we are here to promote the gospel of Jesus Christ. We could, and then, you know, one of the things we did was to keep it as open and as broad and as wide as possible so that anything we wanted to do in the future, we would be able to do it. And this was advised to us by Abhijan at the content was helping us. So, you know, we put down anything, everything kind of work that a church or a ministry would ever want to do, you know, social work, media work, church planting work, Bible college institutions work, you know, supporting other Bible teachers, so on. Getting people together, conferences, workshops, and so on. Even doing research type of work and so on, you know, or any other kinds of organizations that we want to set up, like fellowships, discipleship. We can work anywhere in India and anything and then we can also support other organizations that are similar to us. We can buy land or lease and buy land. We can, you know, sell what we bought and and yeah, and other things that are related to how we will manage the money. We can give to other organizations. We can open branches anywhere in India. We can provide accommodation to educate, assist. So, basically everything that you can think of, which a church would want to be doing, you try to put it in here so that later on you shouldn't be, you know, constrained that oh, I'm not able to do this. It needs to be specified in your articles. And remember, this document people will come back to as a reference point if anything they need to make any decisions, right? And if, if any, anything needs to happen. So all of that has to be put down here in, in the trust. So you can, you know, those of you interested, you can read through this document. I shared it with you. And please keep in mind this was written for India. So it may vary in your country. And of course, it'll vary in other part, you know, maybe in the US and others. But there's just a sample and how, how this is set up. Okay. So, so you need to, you know, write out these articles of incorporation and a good charter content in your city will be able to help you do that. Okay. And make sure that so once the moment you have a legal entity formed, you will need to follow the regulatory requirements that are in your state. Or in your country. So which means that we need to file annual reports. We need to report on what's going on to the government. So those things have to go on. And then you'll also have to have meetings and discussions with your own trustees, that means the people's names are put on the thing they need to talk periodically and record their meetings and so on. That has to happen. Okay. Let me pause here and see if there are any questions. You're all with me. Oh, okay. You couldn't see what I was showing you. You couldn't see the sample. Okay. Let me just quickly share that. All right. So I was just taking you through this document. Can you see it now? Yes, sir. Okay. So I'm just taking you through this document and this has been shared with you in the Classwork section. So this is just a document. This is a sample. So you can take it and modify it. And like I said, just keep in mind this is done for India. It may vary in different parts of the world. So as you can read through it, you'll find that we made it as broad as possible so that we could keep it open for the ministry to do anything that needed to be done. And so all of this is there. This is like the articles. This is how you form the legal entity. Okay. It's available. You can download it and use it. So let me just go back here. Now, okay. We'll take a few questions before we wrap up and bring the cluster close here. So Abraham has a question. In a place like Vietnam, you need to join another church so they can help you. The churches have their own demands. Hmm. Okay. So, okay, let me answer Russian. Where can I download the sample? So I have uploaded all these files in the Google Classroom, the Classwork section. So the file is there so you can just download it from there in the same Google Classroom. So Kennedy's question is, so should it operate like a limited liability, limited company? Yes. You know, it's a legal entity and in many ways it operates like a limited liability company. They just, you know, it's called differently because it's treated differently by the government, okay, a religious entity or a nonprofit. Okay. And so Abraham, your question about Vietnam. I don't understand the scenario there. Do you want to explain it to us so that maybe we could try and share some thoughts on it? Yes. Good morning sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Yes sir. I'm trying to find a balance between what we are learning and the practical issues that we face here. And Vietnam, I think we started trying to get a legal document so that we can do whatever the spirit of God wants us to do. But I had to talk to two pastors. The first one told me that he has to know me and we have to bring our members to his church to fellowship for maybe about a year or two, or maybe probably a year. Then on that note, he can at least submit our credentials to the government that we are from, maybe Africa or we are foreigners and want legal documents to fellowship on our own. That is the first requirement to give me. But unfortunately, most of our people too, most of them are joining online. And the timing that they have their meetings is different from the time we have our meeting. So that was the first challenge. Then I also spoke to another pastor. He has pleased to be the president of the Baptist Church here in Vietnam. He is willing to help. And the first thing he told us was to look for a venue. He will come and rent it in his own name. Then from there, he can help us to get a legal document. But when we look at the Baptist Church too and what we also believe, we kind of believe in tongues more, but they don't. And once you come under them, you have to obviously submit to them. So I'm looking at how we can balance the fact that we believe in tongues and all these things and how to get ourselves to go along with them. And once they register the place for us, it means that when they are having a program, they would like to invite us and we have to be available. And the last option that we had was, by God's grace, we've been looking for a venue too and we find a place. This place has already been registered. I mean, they used to have it for like a church some years ago. And now they still have the document to allow, I mean, to use the venue as a church. So when we've got there, the place is not very good for us because it's hard to locate the place. Most of the people are foreigners, but that venue has been registered. So it's either we go to that venue and stay there for a year. And of course, if the people want to come, we have to look for ways to help them to locate the venue. Or we go with the Baptist Church. We look for a new venue. He comes to register for us. Or we take our members to the other church that is saying that we should bring our members before they can help us. So this is the options we have. And past that, this has taken me almost about two to three months now. I don't know what to do. So Abraham, can't you go directly to say the registrar, like the place where companies, nonprofits, churches register? Or you go to a chartered accountant, somebody will help you do the registration and talk to them and say, you know, we have a community here of people. And we want to form a legal entity, a religious organization. We want to call it by this name. Can you tell us what is the procedure? So then, you know, you and maybe two or three other people can form your own organization directly. Is that possible? I have not made that inquiry yet, but I have to talk to some Libyans and some Vietnamese pastors. And the advice they give me is to join other churches and do that procedure. But maybe I have to step back and go and find out myself. Yeah, so try it and see if it can. I mean, yeah, it may involve a little bit of money, but you can all pull it together and then you can do it. So that way you'll be completely free. You'll have a legal entity. Your name will be on it and maybe two or three other people that, you know, that your core team. And you'll have complete freedom to do what you want. And you can open your bank account in the name of the ministry. You can, you know, book a venue in the name of that ministry. And so you'll have complete freedom. So I would encourage you to just explore that option and see what happens. Okay, Pasta. Thank you so much. We have time for one last question. I think, did Kennedy raise his hand or anyone else? Last question. Okay. So we had a little bit left in chapter three, which we will cover towards the cover next week and then go forward. So just to sum up what we did today, we talked in first lecture, we talked about the objectives of good organization, why are we interested in having a good administration, good organization for the ministry. And then we began our journey today on, you know, how do you go about it? The first step is to form a legal entity, wherever you are, and, you know, get started with that. You know, so because then everything is legal, you are accountable to the government and, you know, you personally won't get into trouble when you start doing the ministry. And so that's the right thing to do. So as soon as possible, try and get that in place. It, of course, will vary in different parts of the world, but you can get information and work on it. Okay. We'll finish chapter three next week and then go forward from there. Okay. Could somebody please pray with us, close and dismiss the class and then, yeah, we'd like to pray. Master, can I pray? Okay, go ahead. Thank you and praise you on your God for this wonderful day which I give unto us your God. We pray that Father God, you promised as Father God, I will build my church and Father God, the gates of the hell will never prevail over it. Father, we pray that everything what we learned to your God, Master, that we will be able to implement in our ministry so that we can able to use it, or Lord Master, to build your kingdom, build the church of Father God with confidence and with faith and with the power of the truth of Father, so that we can able to rise up, or Lord Master, for your glory. We can able to stand up for your glory as it is written in Isaiah 6 to your Father God. We could able to rise up for Father God against the power of darkness of Father. We pray that everything what we learned today, let it deeply rooted in us so Father God, let it change and renew our minds into Father God. We pray that Father let be able to stand strong in the truth and Father, we can able to glorify your holy name. Thank you Father God for using your servant of God. Father, cover him. Lord Master, lead him and thank you Father God. Lord, you blessed each one of our hearts of Father God. Thank you once again for answering our prayers and teaching us Lord Master through the spirit of wisdom and understanding and knowledge of God. We give you all the glory, honor and praises, Lord Master, in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Thank you Master. Amen. Amen. Thank you everyone. It's good to have you all in class. Enjoy the rest of your day. See you again soon. Bye. Thank you Buster. See you soon. Have a great day too. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Bye Buster. Thank you. God bless. Bye now. Bye now. See you all soon.