 But the recording is going. So take it away. Sounds good. Thanks very much. Actually, when we do the recorded student conversations on campus when I'm teaching, there's an obligatory warning message that pops up saying that this meeting is being recorded. I see what we're doing. We don't have that just so that all of a sudden people know they need to start behaving themselves. First of all, thanks very much to everyone for coming. This is the first meeting of the media and entertainment special interest group. We did have a meetup that I'll sketch for everybody what maybe is already a week and a half, two weeks ago even, which was tangentially related to this but not having been at the meetup is of no consequence. As David the other David David be just mentioned this is a pretty small group today so maybe we should just all go around and introduce ourselves very quickly because I imagine that there are some instances in which people are not already acquainted with one another. My name is David McFadgen. I'm faculty at UCLA teaching comparative literature and musicology and digital humanities. So my interest in blockchain and the interest in creating this group came specifically from that from creating tools that will help to combat some persistent issues. These are the piracy. Maybe I should call out people's names, unless we interrupt one another so as far as my screen is arranged, john you would be next. All right. Hello everyone. My name is john bower. I've met both the David's before so hello to both of you. And thanks for the invite here. I was not at the meetup. But this is my first time joining. I currently work at Pandora where the music streaming service not the jewelry company. Sometimes I have to purpose that and have had an interest in blockchain for a while now specifically in what can be done in the music industry for with a ledger with a shared ledger. We've run some experiments at Pandora. It's been a while now haven't come back to it in a minute. But still very much interested in what's possible and excited for the evolution of the entire technology and want to keep up with it in case the evolution and my or our needs at the company intersect. So I would love to follow along and looking forward to meeting all of you. Thanks. Right. Right. So you know the moment I mentioned his name you dropped out Sebastian. Hello, good evening everyone. I'm calling in from the Netherlands. And it's my second time. I'm able to attend this group. I'm the chairman of the ICC foundation, which has been developing over the last four years the content or asset identifier ICC, which we might be talking about in this call as well. And I'm working on a new startup called lithium, which uses content certificates for trusted digital content licensing. Thank you. Would you like to say a word? Certainly. Hello, David. Hello, everybody. My name is Heidi piece. I'm calling in right now from the desert. About two hours north of the Grand Canyon. So my apologies for not having the bandwidth for visual. But it's a pleasure to be here. David, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very honored to be in this group. I am the, I guess the original co-founder of blockchain at UCLA with David, and then left UCLA and founded a group called the Los Angeles blockchain lab, which has been collaborating on projects with different projects at UCLA University of Southern California University of California, Irvine, as well as with Los Angeles City Los Angeles County, and we worked on projects for Panasonic Lamborghini. And we pretty much collaborate with the leading businesses in Southern California government officials and academics. And we also have a an impact facing initiative, which is focused on helping women and disadvantaged youth have more accessibility to blockchain. And then I have on the side also my startup, which is coa. We are helping artists influencers, amateur athletes entertainers of all sorts to fundraise using token on token economics and as well NFTs. So I really look forward to whatever project we end up working on in this group. And thank you again for having me. Thank you very much. Sergio. I'm Sergio and I'm a software engineer for Arena World. And I'm new like to the blockchain space and I just want to like learn more about it. Would you care to say anything more? No, not really. Okay, that's good. Greg, would you care to say a word? Sorry, David, was that one to me? Sure. Let's see if I can get a video here. Morning. Good evening, everyone. My name is Greg scary. I have for years been involved in the the blockchain space working with the company called El Toros is a solutions architect. We've done a number of pilots and implementations in predominantly in hyper ledger stacks, mostly fabric. We've helped off and on to help coordinate the hyper ledger Los Angeles meetup group. So just here to always had interest in music and the the artistic content realm. So just hoping to help in that capacity. However, I can. That sounds great. Brett you come back online. Would you like to say a word? Yes, I'm here. Good morning all I'm up in Canada here it's freezing and I'm embarking on a journey since 2018 on building out something on fabric that would be an all inclusive participation by everyone within a a production film production from a cameraman all the way up to actors, actresses, etc. That would through tokenomics participate in the funding and the profitability of a of a production but in essence bringing all contracts onto a chain. Every sector of accounting every every every moving parts of a production. And all the participants in a production on to a on to a blockchain. That's my, my, my goal. I've been involved with the blockchain type products since Bitcoin in 2012. It's exciting stuff and I'm happy to be here with all of you folks. That's great. Whereabouts in Canada. I'm just north of Toronto in the ski territory that's opening up in a week finally. Yeah, I just want my brother lives in Toronto. I'm just north of trial. Thank you, David. Thank you for everything David by the way. Welcome. I mean, I've just opened the door. What, you know, you guys outnumber me significantly. So let's wait and see what happens. And that's all the David by the way David. As well as well. Thank you so much. I'm happy to help. Matthews. Hi, I'm Matt Thomas on the lead architect at IBM telecom and media labs. I've done a lot of work with blockchain and telco David was very familiar with it. And we've done quite a lot of work with media also add sales and a whole bunch of other areas and Amman is also, you know, both Amman and I part of the same team. And I'm on will be introducing some himself shortly also actually just by coincidence he's the last person to jump on so yeah. I was going to say I can I can go next then. So I'm in short for I'm in the same as Matthews mentioned, we both are part of the telecom entertainment labs and IBM, and I'm a specialist and architect in this group and they've been involved in the telecom sick as well with David and others and happy to contribute on the media front as well and also to learn about the exciting use cases use cases that everyone is working on. Fantastic that's everybody. Thank you very much. The need for these introductions will hopefully lessen each time. So what I want to do is try and rattle through the, the, the official aspects of the meeting very quickly because they're the least interesting. So, just to pass over these bullet points we did have a meetup the data which I can't remember that something like a week or two weeks ago. So in the chat, you'll see in an open conversation, the three topics that tended to float to the surface, just as a general intro to some of the things that people in this group thus far been interested in. One was remuneration. So you can see the particular URLs that were proposed in the chat to was nft specifically regarding wax. So there again you can see some references to look at your leisure. And also asset IDs as well. So, we don't need to stick to those now in fact we won't but those are thus far the initial topics of interest. Second thing I have listed here proposal regarding minutes. I'm not a fan of bureaucracy at all. I have a pronounced dislike for it. So you will probably know that one of the wonderful things that soon does is that it allows us to save the chat as a text document. So what I'm inclined to do is the same as I did here with the meetup is instead of official minutes, I'll send everybody two things one will be the actual full chat conversation later on as a text file again, but also all cherry pick it so as and when topics come up with reference with URLs or clickable links and so on. I'll send those to people separately so there's an opportunity to ignore what's in the chat. If you don't have time to check it in real time. David one real quick observation about chat when you're talking about chat you're not talking about the zoom chat I think but the permanent group chat correct. Sorry. Yeah, I misspoke. Absolutely. Yeah. So just so you are aware I dropped the link to that the media entertainments a group chat on hyperledger chat server in the zoom chat here people want to go over there. And that's nice because it's permanent doesn't go away when the zoom meetings are over. The next step is, oh geographical dispersion. Just having done thus far among the members of the group a quick survey of who lives where we were fairly evenly distributed across four major regions one would be west coast of the states other one would be East Coast, then continental Europe, and then Asia by which I mean southeast Asia. So that's one person thus far in Africa, but nonetheless, given those divisions. It makes sense to have to meet up time so what we'll be doing is doing as much as we can offline and meeting once a month for each of two groups. So one will be this time which is useful to people arguably on both sides of the states and Europe, but for our Asian colleagues not so much at all most of them are probably still asleep. So we'll have a meeting every third week if you like in the month or every third week in each month, in order to accommodate them and they'll be meeting as far as I'm concerned in the evenings, as opposed to the morning so at least that by once a month everybody gets to see as many of their colleagues as they can. One or two things we have left to do in order to become official hyper ledger group which I'm sure David will pick me up on if I'm not quite right but one is to do an introduction video. One is to do a blog post which will just be a brief summary of what we're we're interested in as a group would that be correct David. blog post for sure I mean as far as the video that's more optional we do have the video to your point we did do the meet up and we have a video recording of that I mean I think it's helpful to have video content about the group it's your choice do we want to point people to that recording or do you want to make a short new recording about about what the group is doing. But yeah blog post. I can do that with with my dog sitting in front of the fire or something. That's great. So we're going to have a large snifter and a cigar. That'd be very sophisticated complain about. Right. Exactly. I got a tweet jacket somewhere. That's awesome. Yeah so whenever you do that we'll put it on the website and that will be the official launch. Absolutely. And if we do in agree on what what it is we'd like to build together something of mutual interest then logically we would then apply to you guys to set up a hyper ledger lab with the GitHub page correct. That really speaks to you know my maybe my role and maybe I didn't have a chance to introduce myself so I'll do that really quick so I'm a hyper ledger staff member my role is basically to support the group with whatever you're doing and there are other groups in the community. For example around healthcare telecom a range of different groups in each group does a different set of things because I think the challenges to adoption in those industries are obviously specific to that industry so some groups have done coding projects where they've created a repo in our labs structure where they collaborate together other groups have done other things other groups are more research based they've created for example white papers. So if this group wants to do a coding project yeah we have I mean we're an open source coding community we have infrastructure for that so that that really speaks to I'm here I want to hear what the group is wanting to do and then whatever it is that you want to do I'm here to support with that so but yeah if coding is something this group wants to do we can certainly support. I actually I've just put up on the chat link to one of our hyper ledger pages thus far where we are asked if we so wish, either in addition to something like a white paper, instead of something like a white paper as David pointed out a code based project. So one of the things that I proposed and I would love input on this I would love to know where it sounds interesting where it sounds amateurish where maybe you guys can come in with your skill sets. The link I've put up is to something that uses the media that I've got as just a test case, and my hope was that we could use it as fuel for a platform that would be of wide interest to a wide number of people. This is a 20 second sketch. A lot of what I officially teach UCLA is to do with Eastern Europe so you can imagine because of the work I've done there with musicians for a long time. Piracy is a huge problem. So I built up an enormous data set of audio files over the last 20 years or so and recently when I had digitized the whole thing from all kinds of formats. Something like two million files. And because I donated all the music to a museum in Los Angeles that I'm looking at basically the potential for two types of platform, one would be as Philip. I forgot to ask Philip to introduce himself he will in a second one that Philip says in his world is referred to as heritage media. So something that I call museum data sets. So that will be a public facing platform that would monitor let's say the official borrowing and usage of our tribal material and the other one is to do with musicians who are alive and kicking and maybe even working in an independent sphere. But basically people who are not being properly recompensed for the ways in which their music has been employed by radio stations by shopping malls by fashion shows by anybody who decides to actually use it. So if you take a look at that proposal when you have time that'd be super. And let me know if it sounds like something of interest. And secondly, where you think it could be improved I would be much obliged. And if you reject it out of hand that's also great and we can go off and do something if you like more academic like produce the theoretical white paper together but I just wanted to get the ball rolling with the potential workable data set. So that's that we're getting very close to the end of the official stuff. Oh, there is a grant now available for one of us to mentor a logically an up and up and coming individual with whom we work so in my case that might be something like a student. And David, do you want to quickly sketch that program because you say that something like maybe five or $6,000 available to educate and enlighten somebody who is very much interested in getting new or improved that's with hyperlegion. Absolutely. Yeah, so every year hyperlegion has been running a paid mentorship program where we do to we connects. Parts of the project that has, you know, a project that they want some a student to work on. So that could be one of the hyperlegion projects like fabric, for example, Andy, or it could be one of these special interest groups you know any, any existing community member with a project that they think would be a good fit for a student and that they want to be a mentor for. We want to connect them with students who are excited to get involved, you know, our goal is to obviously get more people familiar with hyperledger get more people familiar with, you know, contributing to open source that fits with the Linux Foundation's mission. So we do have a budget each year to run these projects we're at the process right now where we're inviting the existing community members to draft up some project ideas. So if we step in the project and we have a committee that reviews those and picks those and then those become the projects that students can then step up and, you know, apply for. And then we'll go through the matching project process to connect those existing the existing community members with the projects with those students. So if anybody here in the group is interested in that if that seems like something this group is wanting to do the application process is open right now I think I think I sent a link to the list about that but I'll double check to make sure. Yeah, you did actually I'm just dropping it right into the chat right there so there's the link again for anybody who thinks they're in a position to help somebody grow these are the technical expertise. So I think that's all I wanted to say. As you can tell I rattle through the bureaucratic stuff as fast as possible we still have a good two thirds of the get together left which is, I think a fine balance between me and everybody else. So I'd like to shut up and introduce the one person I forgot to introduce. So this is Philip Richard who is by strange coincidence associated with a blockchain initiative at University College London, which is where I went for my BA in MA so this isn't nepotism or anyway, I had no idea that initially Philip had those connections but he wanted to bring up the question of whether or not what we do on hyperledger might have a potential to grow outside of hyperledger as well. So, Philip. Good morning everybody and good evening for the other time zones. So I'm policy engineer chronologically first dealing with copyrighted million entertainment for the last 12 years, which means that I'm dealing with policies. I did that in America with the MMA. In Europe, with the different directive we have. And I'm currently commissioned by the European Commission to run an initiative which is called copyright and new technologies. So that is my job as policy engineer. I'm also a system engineer by trade, working on a potential solution for copyright register. So here, I'm happy to see colleagues, Sebastian post from ICC. We are working with ICC, and also the colleague from IBM, my little startup is an IBM partner. And interestingly, what we discussed with IBM is portability. So we'll come surely back to to this. So that's in a nutshell, where I'm coming from. To one, David know that we should start with this question about hyperledger portability, etc. Oh please yeah and then I think once, once we feel you've got some meaningful answers that I'd like to open up the rest of the session to general discussion regarding what people would like this group to become in general. So what we have done including with the colleague from ICC is that we have created a minimum viable demonstrator of our concept. So we start with concept first, and then we demonstrate the concept. This is not yet a prototype. It's just before the prototype. And when we were doing so, we opted for a way which is if you want blockchain agnostic in the sense that it can be developed with hyperledger, it can be developed with Ethereum, it can be developed with other blockchain protocol. So that was a statement that we did when we were developing this demonstrator. Then I saw appearing through UCL Center for Blockchain Technologies, the invitation from David, and I saw that he was interested in a domain which is very important for us, which is the user experience user interface in front of a copyright register. So the basic idea is that people using copyright register should not be gurus in intellectual property and should not have a PhD in blockchain. So that's the basic idea. And when I saw David invitation, I thought, ah, that's something interesting because we need something like this. So that was my first reaction. My first reaction was then, of course, to join. Then the second one was the question about hyperledger in the sense that will this group be focused on hyperledger? Or is this group also focused on the functionality of, let's call it an intelligent metadata ingester that you need to place in front of any type of copyright register. So that is a fundamental question for us. We are in discussion with European member states, so we discussed with government. And you can imagine that for a government to go in the idea of a national copyright infrastructure, that national copyright infrastructure has to be portable, cannot depend on one vendor or the next. So interestingly, this is a discussion that we have launched with with IBM without even discussing about hyperledger. So we are now entering a new phase of discussion with IBM to really go deeply in what does it mean to be portable with something like a copyright register. And what does it mean to use standard or to trigger standardization. So that's the question we have. And we would be happy, of course, and I would be happy to stay in the group, even if the group is purely hyperledger, because I'm sure that we, I will learn a lot. Next to the first invitation of David, which is about the UX UI interface with blockchain system, where you can imagine we are working for songwriters we are working for photographers or journalists. They should not even know that blockchain is in the backyard of the thing that they have on an app on their smartphone on laptop. So just to open that up as a general question of the first of several general questions, what about the issue of portability does anybody have any advice or experience. And secondly, the issue of UX UI. And the same bed, does anybody have any advice or expertise they'd like to share one question about the portability is, I know when we were looking at hyperledger before obviously there was the kind of the idea of a private, you know permissions ledger or public in terms of portability, do you have any thoughts on, if you prefer to kind of compute in the cloud or whether these would be kind of private is the wrong word but you know a private collection of servers or something like that for whether this would be open to everybody on a cloud. If it's somebody who's had experience on both sides, what would you recommend as a, as a architectural decision. I cannot because because for the moment we are scratching our heads so we don't know we are looking for the right solution. So, one of the first thing we have as an insight if you want is that we make a distinction between the type of distributed ledger you need for a register, which is dealing only with assertion, and the type of distributed ledger that you need for licensing distributing payment, etc, which is focused on transaction. So this is, this is the first distinction that we developed. So what we call assertion oriented distributed ledger, which is good enough for a register and transaction oriented distributed ledger. Which is, which is necessary for licensing distribution and payment. What the next question of course is permission permission less etc. That is a question that we did not yet solved, even for the register. So we, we are thinking about different properties that the register must have. Typically, the fact that it has to deal with different policies. The policies might be different from one country to the next. I mean the policies for attestation and the policies might be different from one sector to the next, typically between photography and music. So, the status of thinking is currently in our white paper which is public. And we are entering very soon, probably within a month now, a new phase of development, and that's aiming to develop prototype. The prototype as an deadline of the end of June. And while we are making the prototype which might be something that we will throw to the bin, right it's we prototype to advance our research and development. And while we do that, we will go much further on paper about the question of platforms and in the, what we call platforms include the blockchain protocol. So that that is one set of statements so you see we are, we are wondering we are not the one with the statement we are more the one with the questions. We are what we have also done also with ICC is that we submitted to proposal for something which is called here in Europe, the European Blockchain Service Infrastructure and the European Commission is ordering a European Blockchain Service Infrastructure which is an infrastructure. But they ask the consortium bidding for it to prove that that infrastructure will take some boxes of scalability security resistance to quantum attacks, etc, etc. And in the use case that they prescribe to prove that they, they kept all use case today said to the consortium well if you want to prove that your infrastructure makes sense and take all those boxes. You can use either the use case of the copyright infrastructure or use case of circular economy, more in the direction of supply chain and green deal, etc. So with ICC, we have offered to to consortia the possibility to use all prototype to test the blockchain infrastructure. So, all of this to tell you, we are still wondering we are still absolutely in a phase of research and development. You can call it research development and innovation that's how they call it in Europe. And we have many questions that explain of course why I'm so keen to join this group, because I can find element of answers. Does that help with an answer. Yeah, totally. Thank you. Okay, cool. So I think maybe if there's no general debate or discussion or disagreement even in. Sorry, I've got a dog. On the issue at the moment I think what I should do to sit down together with Philip and we'll come up with something resembling an initial statement these are the portability and I'll include it on the project proposal. And then if over time it proves not to be the wisest approach we can always change it but I think it's something that I should formulate as soon as I can. And you popped up. Did you want to say something just to add to what Philip mentioned to distinguish the different purposes for different ledgers like Philip mentioned some kind of a registration ledger and a transaction ledger. And I thought I would like to add the the identity ledger, because that is probably something we have a ledger is the most advanced and set ledger at this moment as far as I overview a bit of a complex heterogeneous environment regarding decentralized or self sovereign identities, because these self sovereign identities will be used probably as a use case quite quite soon. There are a lot of interesting projects that are quite far ahead of in comparison to the media industries, and they will probably work on hyper ledger India or other hyper ledger technology. So, for me, it's especially interesting to see how that can how that interoperability or portability, as you mentioned, could actually could actually work if we work with, let's say two or three purpose different differently purpose ledgers, and how they can interoperate, because that would require, at least for a project, or for all projects, a feature which would be to work with at least open ledgers in the sense that they can be read. Maybe they are permissioned in the sense regarding who can, who may write and put provide information on the on these ledgers but in order to be interoperable at least they need to be open and that's also something that is relevant for, I think, dealing and connecting media assets through identifiers and related metadata and licensing information that you somehow have the opportunity to access and discover these metadata information. Thanks. This might be a good place for for john to jump into john, did you want to come on and tell us a bit more about the work that you've done at Pandora. Well, it's it's been a couple years now so let's see what I can do from memory here to me. So, I'll just give the super super high level if you guys have questions that might jog my memory to be honest. It's more of an internal kind of hack project, and we rallied a team around it worked on it for a while, have not worked on it recently, but at the time we were interested in creating a permission to ledger for for rights for for song rights and in specifically our use case that we're trying to solve for was that as a, as a DSP and Pandora just like Spotify or Apple Music were delivered lots and lots of albums via DDEX all the time, and the rights aren't always in sync with reality. It's up to a major label, for example, to, if they acquire a new catalog to the old the old owner needs to send a takedown request to a DSP, the new owner needs to redeliver that catalog. And so sometimes these are out of sync. And a lot of times these are hand these situations, put a DSP like Pandora in the middle, where if the owners themselves the rights owners do not are not in sync with their deliveries, a DSP like Pandora maybe playing a song, or an album. That has already switched hands. And so when we go to pay out that royalty we may be paying the, the party that no longer owns the copyright or maybe it's not the copyright but the license. And so a DSP will always end up in the middle of this, when the new rights owner says hey, you know, we're not getting paid appropriately or the old owner says hey these, these checks are mixed up. And then an audit has to happen at the DSP level. So, ideally, we were looking at permission ledger to basically automate this process, remove the DSP from the middle of the situation and allow parties to share their permissions to resolve those conflicts between them. And that's basically what we set out to prototype. And I don't know if we got to the official prototype phase but we were using at the time hyper ledger composer, because it was sort of a time limited exercise wasn't fully budgeted. And I think we got to the point where we had a proof of concept where we said this could work. We did not attempt at scale. We, this would be intended to be somewhat of a private ledger between rights owners. But again, we didn't go too much farther than that Pandora was then acquired by Sirius XM and you can imagine that we've had our hands full with lots of other internal projects for the last couple years since then so the interest has never waned on my part but that's about where we left off with Pandora. We have questions for John. I had a quick question. Thank you so much for the overview. When you were, did you actually make it through the, the, into a proof of concept at all and were you able to test it out. So, in our context we made it as far as having having imported rights with theoretical partners, theoretical different owners, and being able to perform updates in which we could share the history of the transactions per participant. Which was our initial hypothesis, and we didn't go much further than that. We were, we were also running this all on the local computers, we didn't really do like formal deploys or anything like that. And I'm just curious in that limited testing did you find it was pretty painless or was it still pretty sticky. So this was several years ago, and I haven't caught up with you know the latest and greatest tech on hyper ledger so this may be a biased or an outdated perspective. We chose hyper ledger for a few reasons over, you know, a theory and or something like that. We thought hyper ledger having a private ledger would give us would sort of give us the situation that we could sell to the rest of the industry for buying, knowing their sensitivities and things like that. And so we actually found that it was quite pleasant to work with at the time. This was with composer. This is before it was originally discontinued. So, again, I don't know what the current state of all those tools are. And we probably would have gone with like a go implementation if we had actually been formally budgeted and we had the time, but we use composer because it was kind of a proof of concept hackathon environment. And it worked. I mean it was it was cool. Being able to write some of those things in JavaScript. Yeah, it was accessible. It seemed to work. We had some questions which we never got to things about you know how could we scale the transactions. At the time there were some white papers showing us that it theoretically possible to scale to 800 or 1000 transactions a second. We never tested any of that this was strictly just kind of one at a time situation. It was just functional. I mean, you know, we, we, we realize that if we were ever budgeted and we put time to this, this could be a reality. Thank you. So against that back against that backdrop and as you say composer has sort of to a large degree faded away. What two years later would you think what could ensure this group do what would you like to see it. I don't really have the answer that to be honest I haven't spent a lot of time even thinking about this in the last year or so I think the opportunity to join this group and to get the wheels moving again is what I'm interested in so I don't know that I have the answer to that right away. Again my interest has never waned in this. The blockers that we faced internally in Pandora were more of a budget and timing perspective not necessarily an excitement there were people that were excited about that there were just other priorities. This is the challenge at least two years ago for a general blockchain solution of L and, by the way, we did present this to the DDEX plenary. So we did actually present our work to a larger DDEX consortium. I think that the feedback we got at the time was just more of why do we need trust. Why do we need enhanced trust in these transactions were a clue. We already trust each other we already have to trust you know Sony already has to trust Warner all these things. Obviously I don't share that that opinion but that's some of the feedback we got was this seems like a work around to something that we could already build with existing tools. Of course, we can't we couldn't build that with existing tools because trust is not, you know, implicit in explicit in those things so I don't know that the industry group that we talked to fully understood the benefits of putting trust into the system, as opposed to into personalities. But I still think that there's a huge need for something like that. So I don't know that I can answer that question right now I think that's part of what I would like to get re-energized in by being part of this group and talking about it and I'm sure I have an opinion about that soon, but I'm just now getting to think about it again. Right, that would be a reasonable point at which to bring Greg, because this is his experience but before we do that, I noticed already. Philippe and Jerome who's joined us from France they both have their hands up maybe Jerome seems you're the new voice would you like to make your point. Yes, thank you. Just let me put the camera. Yes, thank you. So this is really interesting too. I discovered the project presented by John from Pandora. The key that didx is really what makes rights management work today in the music industry is a set of tens of protocols, six dictionaries that help any actor understand what is a track, what is a publisher and make them interoperate so everybody can interoperate. Thanks to didx. The question is how can we create trust for new entrant in the didx system and I share an opinion about the fact that the big companies which are already involved in this mechanism of rights management already trust each other. The question is more for smaller one or new ones who don't trust each other yet. We need a solution to create trust so this is a real need and in the past there were some third party who were proposed to make trust so there was a company which was called transparency rights management which was counting the number of plays on YouTube and reporting this place to a PRS for music in the UK there was the same thing in France with Dailymotion and Sassam the French copyright organization so it was a third party and the question when blockchain technology came up was how to dismiss these third parties and it was a real opportunity. So I have a question for John because you started working at Pandora on Hyperledger Fabric if I understand correctly, Sassam PRS for music and ASCAP the American copyright organization tried to save some identifiers couples with the recording identifier and the copyright identifier in the Hyperledger Fabric. Did you discuss with them about interoperability between streaming platform and copyright organizations? No, we did not, we did not, our goals were not actually to interrupt with a PRO at least at the time. This was strictly just to handle the rights management issue from a DSP perspective DSP between a label or rights owner perspective. That's that was the narrow niche that we looked at. Philip, did you want to add to that? Yes, and it's almost like bridging both John and Jerome, because I was listening carefully to John and it reminded me the IBM project with ASCAP PRS and Sassam, which is not running anymore. And some entities have taken over this ID and they are not using blockchain to solve that problem. So that's one statement, but I'm very keen to discuss this further. The point is that we dealt a little bit with that issue of reconciliation of ISRC's and ISWC's after companies like Pandora or Spotify have streamed one song or the other. And at one moment, it was around June, July last year, we started to discuss, while instead of fixing the problem, so matching those identifiers, post streaming, could we do something to prevent the problem to arise? And after many weeks of discussion, but concluding the discussion around October, November last year, we found a way to prevent the problem, but that way to prevent the problem is based on moral right, which is less used in America than it is in Europe. And the principle moral right is the obligation of attribution. So if we start to build in data and data management, something on the principle of moral right, we can potentially prevent the issue to occur. So I'm quite excited I must say by this first hour, because there are stuff I would like to discuss with everybody, but also in particular with John and Pandora as we continue to work on this. And I will, I'm just giving warning that I must leave in five minutes. That's okay. Thank you very much sorry that noise was this that was pit bull versus ups. So I apologize for that. It was resolved peacefully. Next we have Philip you've got a chance to speak. Eric. You've had a few minutes. Yeah. Right, right. Sorry, it was just following john's discussion and the question that comes up quite a lot is that we're already working in a trusted ecosystem. What, how is this going to change things. I think the, the, the word that Philip used is, and that I've seen is that it's more about reconciliation, and it makes the reconciliation process. And perhaps a little bit easier and automated more so than trying to find bad actors and trust like that. So that was my only comment. Great. I mentioned earlier. Oh, Heidi, your hand popped up. Yep. Oh, Heidi, that's a thumbs up. Yes, I was just agreeing with you. Good. And don't forget that David, I think he did already he embedded the link to the recently created chat. Now, by the way, if the chat turns out to be a pain in the posterior and people don't like it. Or they just, they'd rather be happy with something like slack you know that's obviously no problem at all. So if the proposed socialization space doesn't work for anybody just give me a shout we can change it in two minutes. I wanted to get your viewpoint because obviously you've got a lot of experience and especially in the wake of what john said I wanted to hear what you thought this group or maybe could all should become what should we be doing in your mind. Well, sir, thanks, David. I think at the moment I'm kind of in a an osmosis kind of sponge mode just really listening to everyone's thoughts and trying to gather a sense of the direction that folks want to go. I think some definitely useful or interesting points for me I'll be digging into DDEX and I think that's will hopefully be a good reference point of the current state because I think that could be helpful to the group just to build kind of a baseline understand the ecosystem looks like today vis a vis future state. And I guess my thought from there just goes to it. It's a wide ecosystem so it does seem like we'll have a decision point as to where within that ecosystem we focus to kind of put my just kind of solutioning head on I mean in terms of the lifecycle we've already touched on a few different areas we have anti piracy kind of the content identification itself, remuneration on the other end rights transfers. John just alluded to kind of basically the audit trail and the reconciliation that was mentioned. And then within there you have the network, all the different kind of participants that are involved everyone from creators to rights holders to DSP kind of consumers. And so I think my thought at the moment is just trying to my myself is just getting a handle where within that we're focusing. And then the other question that seems to have surfaced a little bit is, are we do we have kind of an implementation idea this state or is there kind of a stage of talking about or to potentially developing a standard. Because it seems like that there might be a question there whether there's a, especially when it gets to interoperability I guess would be my, my observation from kind of the technical level. The questions been been raised I think I know some of the hyper ledger stacks. You know, early on kind of the Ethereum integration was it was a common request, I know most of the stacks at this point will give you some sort of EVM integration. And then cactus is obviously kind of picking up traction so that's I guess I would just throw that out to the group that does something we can look at, particularly at that interoperability space. But yeah also that's a bit of a ramble but just kind of my my observations. So far, but actually, sorry. No, please. Well just I had a note from from earlier so looping back a bit but we had mentioned the client facing or sorry that the client the user interface question which I think is a good one. And also from a technical perspective I think I'm not sure that any of the projects as of yet have built in built in clients per se are built in you are you X. But I believe the majority of them have common language SDK so fabric has as a node SDK, you can build API is fairly fairly easily so we kind of I think we're covered up to that level and in terms of development from a technical standpoint. Working with music how did hyper ledger prove it has to prove itself to be was it a successful environment or did it have its problems for. We've so speaking, particularly from some of the projects that I've worked on in a commercial corporate setting. We've dealt with rights in some tangential areas not necessarily for music rights. And I think one of the biggest implementation questions just is that closed system versus open. Are you developing a standard and a definition for what content is what an actor is what a transfer looks like. So answering that question and a closed network of participants versus defining an open standard that's I guess just my observation at this point is that that can't can be a bit of a fork in the road so it might kind of move us to decide what our goal is is there. So that's actually good really really good place to end, because it is now 10 o'clock. So Greg has ended almost with an invitation to question statements queries and so on to what we've already done so far so my proposal would be to fall that as we wrap this up one. Would you please let me know what you would like this project to become what would be most useful to you what would be most useful to the general development of tools with which you're already working. And to how does the initial proposal I put up strike you is it something that is it is that is of worth or would you rather see something developed more along the the lines of let's say Phillips white paper. So just to reiterate that what do you think we should be doing and should it take one of two forms either the recording project or more of a textual theoretical statement. We know where to add materials we know where the chat is you know how to reach me we know hopefully reach each other on that point I just like to say thank you very much to everyone who's been with us. So two weeks from now the next meeting will be the so called Asian meeting so that'll be in favor of our folks who live in Asia. So you're welcome to join that but I doubt for those of you living in Europe that's going to be terribly terribly convenient. So thanks once again, and I hope to see you very soon either on or offline. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.