 Hi everybody, I'm Don Sweeting, President of Colorado Christian University, and welcome to tonight's CCU webinar. Its focus is on race and ethnicity. Tonight is the third of a series of three webinars that we've been doing during this whole academic year, and reason just really back in the summer with racial unrest because of our commitment to liberty and justice for all because of our commitment to Christ in the gospel. We just wanted to be proactive and create some space to help us think through a few issues of race and ethnicity from a Christian worldview and from a variety of angles. Normally we would do this in person on campus, but because of COVID and all the complications of this year, it's no surprise that we're going to have to do it as a webinar. But we're really, really glad to have as our guest tonight, Sammy Rodriguez. Sammy, welcome. It's an honor to have you with us. Dr. Sweeting, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be with you. And I want to tell our guests a little bit about you. So if you'll allow me just to elaborate a little bit, Sammy Rodriguez serves as a senior pastor of New Seasons Church with campuses in Los Angeles and Sacramento. He has three children, he and his wife Eva. He is the president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, which is the world's largest Hispanic Christian organization with something like 42,000 plus U.S. churches and many additional churches spread throughout the Spanish-speaking diaspora. He holds a master's degree from Lehigh University and honorary doctorates from Northwest William Jessup. That's where Eric Hogue used to be and Baptist University of the Americas. Let me tell you a little bit more. Sammy stands recognized because of his presence in all kinds of media. The Wall Street Journal named him one of the top 12 Latino leaders, and he was the only faith leader on that list. But you may have seen him on CNN or Fox or PBS or read him in the New York Times or Christianity Today or the Wall Street Journal. Sammy was the first Latino to deliver the keynote address at the annual Martin Luther King Jr. commemorative service at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Georgia, and he is the recipient of the Martin Luther King Jr. Leadership Award presented by the Congress of Racial Equality. He has advised numerous presidents, President Bush, President Obama, President Trump, and frequently consults with Congress advancing immigration and criminal justice reform as well as religious freedom as being a spokesman for that and pro-life issues. In January 2017, he actually participated in a presidential inauguration ceremony reading from Matthew 5. I remember this concluding with in Jesus' name. It was so good to hear that name at an inauguration like that. He is a bit multi-talented, so he's a pastor, but he's also an author. He's produced two movies Breakthrough and one coming out called Flaming Hot. He's the co-founder of the TBN Salsa, an international Christian-based broadcast television network, and he is, among other things, I noticed a Yankee fan and a Trekkie as well. So hey, Sammy, we have a few things in common besides being brothers in Christ pastors and the two of us served on the NAE Board, the National Association of Evangelicals. That's where we first met. I'm a die-hard Yankee fan, so you're in LA and how you can be a Yankee fan when the Dodgers are smoking. Right. How do you do that? Because I'm originally from the East Coast. Okay. I'm actually coming to you right now live from my East Coast home, so I'm by Coastal. I'm a Pennsylvania kid, I'm a Penn State guy, went to Lehigh University. So my fourth-generation Yankee fan, and we were an hour and a half away from the Bronx when I grew up, and my grandfather was a Yankee fan, my dad was a Yankee fan, it's pretty amazing. So yes, indeed. Praise the Lord, you're a Yankee fan. This makes it the best interview of the year. Love it. See, I was born in Hackensack, New Jersey, right across the river from the Bronx, and grandparents were all immigrants, so I think it's kind of an immigrant thing or something like that. I love it. Love it. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, and my claim to fame as a kid is Mickey Mantle lived across the street from us. No. Seriously. Yeah, seriously. For a short time, and I was a baby, my brothers remember playing in the yard with his kids, throwing the football, throwing the football, yeah. That's it. Interview officially over. You can't come. We can't. No. It wouldn't work because I'm in Colorado and they hate the Yankees. They're Rocky fans, and you're normally in LA and the Dodgers. So the only time I tolerated Dodgers was when Don Mattingly was coaching the Dodgers. It had a redemptive component to it. Okay. That works for me, but probably for nobody else in our audience. So let's get out. Let's get out while we're still alive. Oh, wow. Well, I wanted to just have a conversation with you tonight because so often in a lot of the racial discussions, it's always folks on white and African American. And because of the growing Hispanic population in the United States, I wanted to broaden the conversation. So thank you for being willing to spend this time with us. Now I'm really honored to be with you. And by the way, let me commend you and applaud you for having just the biblical foresight. The term would be prophetic courage to create space for this conversation. Thank you so very much. Well, it's a blessing and I need it. And I think our constituency needs it. CCU has about 8,000 students and we have the number of, I think it's we're at 16%, so we're at 17% Hispanic students, which is more than the Colorado, general Colorado student population. And it's, go ahead. I'm blown away. I was in privy to that and I really wasn't. That's pretty amazing. Pretty remarkable. And reaching 25% makes you a Hispanic serving institution as you well know and HSI. Just under the line, we're not quite there, but we're aiming to get there. Congratulations. Wow. I love the diversity of that. Wonderful. Excellent. Yeah. And, you know, I've been blessed by two, but I'd love to hear just to tell us your briefly your story. Just you're, you know, who, who are you and how did you get to where you are? Yeah, no, by the grace of God, I'm just I'm a follower of Christ. Love Jesus grew up in an evangelical home. My parents were not preachers, but I grew up as a Trekkie and with a strong affinity inclination for mathematics. I was originally studying computer science and engineering at Penn State University. So I'm a nerd. I'm a math science Trekkie guy. I got glasses and all when I was growing up, but my parents came from Puerto Rico and I grew up the first four or five years of my life, exclusively speaking the Spanish vernacular. But I immersed into the England, what was known by as a bilingual program in order to acquire Jeffrey Schosser's English. And by watching Star Trek, all kidding aside, I've watched the Star Trek and Batman for that matter, Old School Batman, Adam Westford Ward. By watching Star Trek and the old school 60s Batman is that somehow I became acclimated with the English vernacular. And that's how Sam learned English. So yeah, I'm the byproduct of an immigrant experience. Growing up in the evangelical church, there was a strong calling. I had an encounter with Christ that transformed me when I was at Penn State. I had another encounter that convinced me and persuaded me to the degree that I would not be an employee of IBM, which was my life's goal that God was calling me into ministry. I began having hosting or participating better yet in youth conferences across Latin and regional youth conferences that were pretty large and significant five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10,000 strong in my 20s. And then Jesse Miranda, Dr. Miranda was my spiritual dad. Dr. Miranda is known as the godfather of the Hispanic evangelical movement. When he was retiring, he wanted to pass the baton. We term that we use as mantle. And he really was from the persuaded in his spirit that Sammy Rodriguez was it. He placed a mantle upon me and said, Tag, you're it, son. And he was faithfully with me all the way into the day. The Lord called it home as our chairman emeritus. So and God really just did a great thing with the Latino community. And now we serve this wonderful organization. And in addition to that, I pastor a multi ethnic church as 40% white, 40% African American, 20% Latino nation. Wow. And that's that's wonderful. That's not easy. And that's wonderful. Yeah, for such a time as this. Yeah, really. Tell us a little bit about the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, a lot of people tuning in probably don't know about that. Yeah, it was it's an organization. Again, it emerged the original foundational infrastructure created in 1992 by Dr. Jesse Miranda 10 years later, left a little bit less than 10 years later, he passed the baton over to yours truly. So I've been presiding for close to 20 years. It's it's the National Hispanic Latino Evangelical Association. So we have denominations that are part of the Association, independent networks. And it's 42,000 plus. Matt Staver is our global VP. And he's an attorney and he certifies that number annually through the denominational letters that are affirming their commitment to the organization and the ability for us to represent them on life, religious liberty and biblical justice issues, which include immigration reform, racial reconciliation and unity, justice reform, sex and being sex trafficking, human trafficking, and a number of other issues. So it's 42,000 strong. We have chapters all throughout the United States, different states, different cities, and all throughout Latin America. It's a wonderful community. It's it's it's not it's not just a Kumbaya network. It's a it's a Monday through Friday and weekends operational ministry that's out there advancing what we call the Lambs agenda. What's the NHLC in a nutshell? If you would take Billy Graham and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and combine them and you would put salsa sauce on top, you would have the National Hispanic Christian leadership Congress, because we're truly committed to reconciling Billy Graham's message of salvation only through Christ with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s March for Justice. So we're a righteousness injustice truth and love Psalm 89 14 movement. Yeah, what a great combination. You know, it just seems like people talk about justice, not righteousness, righteousness is not justice. And and you put them together. And actually, the Bible does that, right? The Bible does that. And from day one, we were committed to reconciling. I grew up seeing a dichotomy, a split. I saw a segment of the church focused on Billy Graham's message exclusively, which is the primary directive, the best Trekkies would say, right? Salvation through the person of Christ, eternal life, new life, abundant life, a personal relationship with Jesus. And then I saw primarily communities of color committed to the horizontal part of the cross, justice. And then all of a sudden Latinos come along and say, why does it have to be either or? Why can't we be both and? Why can't we be both Billy Graham and Dr. King? Righteousness and justice, sanctification and service, covenant and community. Why can't we both be John 3, 16 and Matthew 25, orthodoxy and orthopraxy? So we're committed to the center of the cross, the center, not the political center, the prophetic center, where the horizontal and the vertical, where the vertical and the horizontal intersect. That's what the NHLC is all about. Right there, the center of the cross, righteousness and justice, truth and love. And that's how we change the world. Right, righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. I love that. Truth and love lead the way as a tendency. Sammy, tell us about the growing racial diversity of America in terms of Hispanics. So I remember in 1999, someone said, minorities have now become the majority if you put them all together. And then I remember hearing in, I think it was early 2000s where the number of Hispanics passed the number of African-Americans in the United States. And I know this is accelerating. Somebody said something like a quarter of all high school grads are gonna be Hispanic by 2023, which is just almost next year. So give us something more knowledgeable and precise than that. So the African-American community is approximately anywhere. And the reason there's a variance there is according to what source you listen to. So if you look at the census numbers and some would argue they're skewed and so forth. So there's data there that's a little bit conflated. And so it's between 12 and 14% of the American populace and Latino community is anywhere between 21 to 24% of the American populace. So there's more Latinos and African-American, but combined the African-American and the Latino community right now, it's getting closer and closer. It's not there in America where the majority are non-white, but it's becoming a trend that seems to be inevitable by 2040. With that being said, this diversity right now, as it pertains to the educational system, the influx of Latinos in public education, private education, higher education, it's unbridled. And that's why the reality of not just reaching out to this community, it behooves us collectively as Americans to engage this demographic, to make sure that we provide facilitated platforms of engagement, even looking at the financial wineskin. Latinos have the cognitive bandwidth, of course, the acuity, the inclination and the hard to study. The number one issue has been the financial disparity. How can we make it affordable? So we need to address these issues, but yes, it's not a thing that's gonna go away. America is becoming more and more Hispanic, more and more Latino. And what does that mean for America? And that's a viable question, by the way. If this demographic is the fastest growing demographic and it's exploding, and as you don't know, Latinos are inclined to have more children than are whites. And I don't see white in a disparaging way, more just in a comparative analysis of race for this conversation. More biblical. Latinos happen to have more kids than our white brothers and sisters. And we have Netflix, but it doesn't matter. We still have more kids than our white brothers and sisters. Oh, I got four. I got four. So it's just the reality of what does that mean for the church? What does it mean for America? Let me conclude this part as a part of this question. Latino values, what are they? I'll give them to you. And don't take my word for it. Please go Google Pew Research. And this is the primary fountain from which I articulate the numbers and so forth. Latinos are pro-family. We are familia, pro-faith. We love God. We are pro-faith, pro-family. We love entrepreneurship. That's why you see Latinos opening up mom and pop shops constantly in every major metropolitan city. So it's faith family, it's free enterprise. You know what that sounds like? Sounds like the values that made America in the first place. The initial values that serve as a foundational framework for our nation. So we may have a little bit of an accent and we may put some chili on the meat and the carne asada, which is delicious by the way. But the pertains to values, the same identical values that serve as the foundational framework, our Judeo-Christian value system, free enterprise, religious liberty, a commitment to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you just defined the Latino community. Yeah, and I would add one more quality and that is pro-hard work. I mean, just very hardworking people. You have no, I, we have a strong chapter in the Central Valley and Eric knows this in the Central Valley of California, which is Bakersfield up, you know, Fresno, Modesto, Madera, some of your students have never heard these areas. It's the 99 corridor in California, 14 hour days, 16 hour days. Some of the most hardest working people I've ever met in my life are embedded in this wonderful immigrant community, primarily even the first generation of our community. So God bless them. And I was gonna ask you to talk to us about some of the blessings of the Hispanic heritage, which you just identify. And I really think it's important to identify that because in God's global mosaic, there are gifts far and wide, you know, and rather than emphasize the differences, the grace of God shining through is something we miss. God, let me, let me even put something out there. I do believe the Latinos and I don't wanna get too overly spiritual about this, but we can't make the reality of the cross. I think we have a reconciliatory assignment because as you all know, Latinos are not a race. There's white Latinos, my great grandparents come from Spain, from Galicia, from the northern part of Spain. And they went to Puerto Rico and Puerto Rico ended up in Pennsylvania, New York area, right? And Orlando. Orlando's Puerto Rico North. That's just Orlando is Puerto Rico, just doesn't know it, but it is Puerto Rico. So that's just amazing. And there's black Latinos and I have Indian blood to my dad's side who Spain or grandfather married a Tainan Indian. So we're the walking United Nations. I think we have a reconciliatory prescription assignment because we really are committed to bringing people together. That's why with the racial angst happening in America, especially last year and so forth, the Latino community stands up and says, Lord, help us become the balm of Gillian and help us bring white and black together in Jesus' name. And I believe it's doable by the way, it's doable. So for such a time as this. That's wonderful. And I've never heard it put quite that way, but I think it rings true. Now, when you speak, Sammy, you interspersed Hispanic and Latino and help us white people around, you know, like what? I use Hispanic because National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, but I know Hispanics use different titles. What's the right one? Pure research surveyed Latinos last year and the majority of Hispanics, Latinos said they prefer Hispanic. So it's a generational thing. Let me explain. The majority of people over 40 of Hispanic descent that speak Spanish vernacular, Don Quixote said about this, they prefer Hispanic. Those that are 39 and under prefer Latino. What we don't like according to the survey is Latinx. Latinx is a term that I, Sam Rodriguez, as a Christian find offensive. The reason why I find it offensive is because it's part of a culture that I don't want to get controversial, but it's part of a culture that I find to be in the womb of the absurd. But it's not just Sam Rodriguez, they surveyed Latinos and dating in Latinx and it's one of the reasons why so many Latinos actually shifted towards a certain voting persuasion in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Florida last year because they rejected the whole, hey, hold on a second. So it's Hispanic, it's Latino, it's interchangeable. Those two terms are both beautiful precious. The term Latino though, it's a little bit controversial. And again, biological coherency, ready for this? Latino means that you are the byproduct or a participant of the Latin language. Well, guess what? That makes French people Latinos. Romanians, Latino. Oh, the French wouldn't like that. The French wouldn't like that. If I go to parents right now and go, my Latino brothers and sisters, they would laugh me up the Eiffel Tower. So if you want to be technical about it, Latino means a part of the Latin language and not all Latin languages consider themselves to be part of Latino culture. So Hispanic has more of a comprehensive, logical, encompassing component to it. However, I use both terms interchangeably, Latino and Hispanic. Yeah, I heard you use them interchangeably. That's why I asked. What about the religious breakdown of Hispanics in the United States? You know, Catholic, evangelical, what is it? You're either one of two things primarily. There are very few Latino Presbyterians and Episcopalians that I can tell you. If you find one, call me, text me DM me. Cause that's the anomaly. We want to think- I'm a Presbyterian pastor and you are right, sadly. I'm just telling you, that's just a trick. So Latinos are either one of two things. There are either Catholic or they are evangelical. And by the way, the majority of Latinos both Catholic and evangelical, according to Pew, which I think is Pew, Barna and Lifeway are of the charismatic persuasion. Again, let me repeat that. The majority of Latino Catholics are charismatic, self-identified. The majority of Latino evangelicals are the charismatic persuasion. Other terms that are interchangeable will be spirited, empowered. Some would use Pentecostal, but that's kind of rigid in its own definition. But it's that. It's charismatic. They believe in the giftings of the spirit. Latinos believe in healing for today. They believe in miracles. Many of them believe in a prayer language. They're very animated in their praise and worship. So that's a Latino, both Catholic and evangelical. So that's your breakdown right now. What percentage of Latinos are evangelical in comparison to Catholic? Again, various rooms of data there, various streams. Here's what we're looking at right now. It's aiming closer and closer to 25% of all Latinos identify as evangelical. That's the growing now. It used to be 16%. The latest numbers go between 22 and 25%. The ceiling would be 25. The floor would be about 21%. But again, the other 75% are primarily Catholic, but 56% are the charismatic persuasion. So it's that charisma, the Numa that unites Latinos across the board. We speak the same spiritual language. Yeah, I know that there's a great diversity among Hispanics, not just religious, but national and even color as you mentioned. But what are some of the issues that Hispanics face in the United States that we should know about? Well, issues that we face versus issues that we advocate for. So there are values that guide us that I alluded to previously. And again, going back to Pew, Latinos happen to be the most pro-life community in America even more than white evangelicals. Praise God. So the most pro-life community in America is the Latino community, very strong life ethos. But what are the issues that we face? The immigrant issue is an issue that the whole malaise is not more than a concern. It impacts our families and our churches. It really does. And you say, Sam, why is it an issue? People came in here, it's conflated. And Sam Rodriguez is an advocate of legal immigration. I want people coming here illegally, not illegally. For various reasons, the rule of law, we can't let a group of people not obey the law and then ask the rest of the country to obey the law. It's just, again, a lack of coherency and it creates angst and even animus. It creates racial tension. Besides that, I've been at the border. I've been there, I've seen it. I've lived this out, sex trafficking, human trafficking. Oh, it's just the stories are just heartbreaking. With that being said, the hardest working people I know on the planet, I kid you not. And they're created in the image of God. So an issue is immigration. And it's an issue that I've been working on since 2006 with three different presidents. And hopefully and prayerfully, we'll see something down the road that will bring an end to the chaos and the malaise and having so many people limbo. That's one issue, immigration reform. The other is education. And by education is Latinos are studying more than ever before, our graduation, high school graduation rate, we've never been this high. We are graduating even from junior colleges at a higher rate than ever. But it's still that four year college graduate school component that there are some lids. I call them lids. And they're more because of the financial reality, student debt, the financial reality issues that it's just an impact, it's not impact exclusively Latinos. But for Latinos, because they already have two jobs taking care of parents who may not be documented, it becomes really complicated. And these are the issues that may be unique for Latinos because of the complexity of the family reality as it pertains to legality and documentation. So these are unique things to Latino because of the immigrant status. But in spite of all of that, it's a community that's not just surviving in many degrees it's thriving. So what's Sammy Rodriguez's solution to the immigration reform that needs to happen? I'm glad you asked. I was working for George W. Bush as an advisor and for President Obama and submitted the proposal. Worked with Senator Marco Rubio, I consider a good friend. And then President Trump, I actually had dinner at the White House and I gave President Trump the proposal. And Vice President Pence, we talked about it at the end of the year last year before the election. I know that Jared Kushner was working on the proposal that we surrendered and we rendered to the White House. What's the answer you may ask? Here it is. We have approximately 11 to 20 million people that are here undocumented. We won him here legally. That ship sailed. What do you do? What do you deport them? Can't deport them. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the infrastructure, the inclination, the manpower to deport people who have been here for 20 years who are contributing to many sectors of the American economy. Again, they did come in here illegally. However, they're the ones taking care of the agricultural industry, of servicing our hotels and our restaurants, of doing so many things. So after 20 years, 25 years telling them to go back home, like we suddenly found out they were here undocumented, it's just not reflective of our values. So what do we do? Here's my solution. My solution is we look at the dreamers. Let's look at the young men and women who were brought here when they were babies or young. Without ever taking a vote, they had no choice, their parents brought them here. Why should we punish them? It's wrong. I believe every dreamer, which is according to President Trump is 1.8 million, according to Obama, it was 650,000. But let's take the 1.8 million who are now maximum age, 39 years of age, let's make them citizens. If they're not involved in the various activity, if they don't have a criminal record, and they're not involved in drugs, rape and so forth, and 99.8% of them are just wonderful young men and women, hardworking, who grew up in America, who don't even speak Spanish. Come on, let's make them citizens like tomorrow morning. Why should they pay for their sins of their parents? It's just to me, even as a pastor, why should the children pay for the sins of their parents? It's not right. Now, what do we do with the parents? Here's where the compromise comes in. They came in here illegally. There's a price to pay for that. We're not gonna deport you. We're gonna give you a green card if you have a clean record and you're contributing and you're not living up government subsidies, then stay here for the rest of your life, become a permanent resident, but you'll never become a citizen. There it is. We want to convey your message. There's a price to pay for coming here illegally. And the price is you're never gonna become a citizen. However, you're never gonna get deported. You continue to live here and live out the American dream as long as you're not living up government subsidies or government entitlements. And these, again, these are wonderful human beings. They are a blessing and not a curse. The immigrant community is not a burden for America. It is one of America's greatest blessings. The immigrant community is revitalizing the church in America. If not for the immigrant community, ask the Southern Baptist in the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, Christian Missionary Alliance, Fours Square, where would they be today? It's actually an infusion of hope and vitality. So that's the price you have to pay for not coming here illegally. So that's the compromise. And speaking with the Marco Rubios and James Langford and Tim Scott's of the world, this is a compromise that both Republicans and Republicans would embrace. So they're not gonna embrace giving amnesty to 20 million people. It's not gonna fly. That's what President Biden just proposed just a few weeks ago. It's not gonna happen. But the proposal I did submit to you right now, is something that will fly. We have enough votes in the Senate to pass the proposal that I just laid out for you. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Do you sense there's still a strong attitude of nativism in America today that Hispanics feel? I think that's gone. I think that ship sailed. I remember when it did exist. I was there as part of conversations. I heard stuff y'all wouldn't believe. I heard stuff y'all wouldn't believe. Just crazy Cougar for Cocoa Puff stuff. When I first started working with President Bush, I would be privy to conversations with members of Congress who would say, we wanna keep America white and Western European. Are you kidding me? What does that mean? And I'm going like, and even I would speak to my conservative brothers and sisters and say y'all need to redefine conservatism. Are you conserving the color of skin or are you conserving the values? The values. America has always been an immigrant nation. And we must continue to be a nation open for immigrants but legal immigration reflective of our economic realities and a segment that still affirms the model and the adage on the Statue of Liberty. So yeah, nativism, that idea is dying. I am concerned with this emergence of nationalism versus patriot. I'm a patriot. I am an American patriot. My uncle died in Korea. My cousin died in Iraq. I love this country, but I love Jesus more than I love America. And I'm a citizen of the kingdom of heaven before anything else. I'm proud to be an American citizen, fourth generation American citizen. But I'm a citizen, meaning what? I love the flag, but I worship the cross. Meaning I worship Jesus. I don't worship the flag. And we gotta push back on this sort of unbridled nationalism that has a little bit undergirding of nativism and of course repudiate every single vestige of supremacy of any race. Right. Let me ask kind of a wild question. So often in the books that are out today when racism is discussed, it's whites are racist and it's always focused on African-Americans. So my question is, do Hispanics deal with racial tensions with the other groups and give us an insight into that? Oh, absolutely. And Don, we know each other from any word and you're a friend and Eric of course, I wanna be honest in this conversation. And of course, what else can I be, right? It's called integrity. But the statement you made that even in this plethora conversations regarding race, you know, whites are racist, I have to push back on that. I'm against the idea that if you're white, you're automatically a racist. I find that to be a racist statement. And the idea that whites are all racist, I find it to be not only inaccurate from a Christian perspective, forgive me to get a little bit charismatic here. I rebuke that idea because that's a racist statement. I have white people in my family. I have African-Americans in my family. My daughter's about to marry an African-American. I have, my family looks like the UN. And my problem with the race conversation is that we need to recognize that many are making idol out of race. Yeah, yeah. It's idolatry. Right. So we need to be careful and we need to focus on the fact that we are all created in the image of God to answer your question explicitly. Immigration 2006. I find myself having this conversation where African-Americans were surveyed by black brothers and sisters. And in 2006, they saw the immigrant community as a threat that was taking away their jobs in the inner cities. So here's a story that hasn't been told. Back in the early 2000s, there was tension between the Hispanic community and the African-American community because of immigration. Guess which one was one of the staunchest groups against immigration that would grant any sort of honesty, the African-Americans. Because they, and at the same time, there were groups feeding that narrative. There were outside groups that for the purpose of exacerbating discord, they fed the narrative through news and what I would call fake news to the African-Americans that these immigrants are taking away black jobs. I don't even know what a black job is. But so there's been tension there. And then there's been tension on the other side with some nativism and some, we don't want these people coming in with their values into America and we got to keep America majority color. And of course, that's explicitly racist. So we do have that tension. We've had that tension. But again, because we don't have the same skin color, we're able to move within both black and white and serve as this conduit of, how about that? The community that is so known for building a wall as it pertains to trying to stop it, we are the quintessential bridge. And ironically enough, so there is some tension, but I think it's becoming less and less as the years go by and America becomes more of a mosaic and a tapestry of God's beautiful, diverse creation. Yeah, as a college president, I see, I mean, you try to work for a biblical diversity, at least I do, and yet there's a natural diversity that's happened, if you do nothing, there's a natural diversity that's taking place. Just even watching CCU. It's not fast enough for some people, but it's taking place and it's been a blessing to CCU and other universities as well. I'm just concerned with all of us, and this includes Sam Rodriguez, I wanna make sure that, let me digress here, that we are not building an idol of race. Yeah. She's so obsessed with the color of skin. In our church, we have again, 40% black, 40% white, 20% Latino and Asian, the election was difficult and so was the George Floyd murder and so forth, because these things, what do you do as a pastor? So I, pastoring a multi-ethnic church is arguably one of the most difficult tasks in the clergy and by the grace of God, he has protected us and we grew and even in COVID and he blessed us because we really do believe we have a biblical sort of solution and it's focusing on Christ. But it doesn't mean you negate issues. See, the word empathy, that word right there, if all of everybody engaging and engaging right now with this interaction with us, that word empathy, let it resonate in your spirit, because at least the minimum that you should have is empathy, you may not understand that. Why are our black brothers and sisters responding the way they responded? Did they go over the top even? But I'm not black. You're not black, right? So we've never been black. So the minimum that we can offer as Christians is empathy. I don't understand everything, but I'm not gonna deny the fact that you feel a certain way. It's not that we're validating the manifestations or movement and so forth, but at least demonstrating empathy should be the least that we can offer as Christians to one another. And again, always working towards the greater good, working towards the greater good. A kingdom culture, multi-ethnic reality and elevate the culture of the kingdom of heaven. So again, if we can do that, we'll move the ball forward. I'm gonna throw it open to Eric in a minute to field some questions, but I got one more for you. And building on what you just said, we do see so much tribalism and identity politics seems to separate people. And in terms of race and ethnicity, we have gospel resources. And you've talked about Hispanics possibly playing a reconciling role. Can you just for our listeners elaborate on how the gospel changes everything in this area? The gospel changes absolutely everything. The message of the gospel, first of all, we recognize when Christ is the center of your life, your lens has changed. You see the person in front of you, not through the color of your skin, Dr. King, where you will be judged not by the color of your skin, but the content of your character. So it's not to deny the fact that when I see you, I don't see your color. But I don't wake up in the morning and say, Sam Rodriguez, you're a Latino, you're Hispanic. Sam Rodriguez, you're caramel macchiato. I'm sorry, I don't see, I see someone created in the image of God. I see someone creating image of God and you're beautiful and black is beautiful. White is beautiful. Asian is beautiful. Caramel macchiato is beautiful. But the gospel just enables us to work together across every single line, work together for the advancement of what I call the Lamb's agenda. We're permitting Uncle Sam and donkeys and elephants to divide what the Lamb died for. Politicians are having a heyday and all they're doing is putting us in boxes. Here's the strange thing about me. When people say, Sam, you're a minority, I go, of what? Well, you're a Latino, so you're a minority. Say you, I'm not a self-identified minority. That's a government description that I do not embrace. So it's that sort of reality. It's that sort of pushback. We've got to stop doing these boxes and letting culture and government define us. We're defined by the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. And we got to treat each other that way and respect each other and love each other. I know it sounds kumbaya-ish and very Pollyani-ish and very utopian speakeas, but we can do this if we don't drink the Kool-Aid. Yeah. Let's do this. Well, if I don't know about this, I do believe in righteousness and justice, truth and love. And every time we see injustice, be it in the white community, black, Latino, Asian, we must speak up. Silence is not an option. Today's complacency is tomorrow's captivity. And we are what we tolerate. So we just can't turn our face and ignore things that happen. However, we have to do it in the name of Jesus. And we have to do it with a biblical response. So ladies and gentlemen, if you're gonna do justice, make sure you're doing it in the name of Jesus. Amen. And if you're using any historical context, if you're gonna do justice with great due deference, don't do it in the spirit of Malcolm X. Do it in the legacy of Dr. King. All right, on that note, Eric, come on and join us. And you've got some questions and you're gonna field some questions. Well, first of all, Sammy, it's just good to see you. I don't know why you get younger and I get older. I have no understanding of that. It must be- My buddy- Machiato in you or something. Great to see you. Great to see you, my friend. Great to see you. So a transition to your white mocha, latte. Really. So let me go historical for a lot of the folks watching. And even I lived this, you lived it more than I. I kind of learned off of you, broadcasting in a studio across the hallway back in the early 2000s. We worked with the Bush administration. It was the guest worker program at that time. And I to this day still believe that if you go back to Pete Wilson in 187 in California, that prop in California for Pete Wilson's administration, up until that time, George W. Bush had a chance to do something about this tension. And then 9-11 hit in 2001. I mean, he had the guest worker program, which you described as pretty much a remedy, but a little bit of consequence to it. So let me ask you historically, has the country, grown to a point of better understanding or worse understanding of situations for the Hispanic population and the Hispanic immigrant in California? Or in the question? They have, I believe the understanding has become more conflated, more confusing, more chaotic because of the polarized nature of media today in America. So they're receiving extremes on both ends. And because of that, there's not a palpable coherent conversation regarding the immigrant community. For example, Eric, and you know this, well, if you ask the immigrant community, what's your number one objective? The vast majority, we're talking about 80, 90% would not say citizenship, would not. Their answer is, we just don't wanna get deported. We wanna continue to work here. We know we can't hear illegally and we felt like we had no choice, but we did come here illegally. It was our issue. We did it wrong. We take it. However, our kids grew up here. We've been working here for 25 years. We just wanna be legal to continue to work here and do away with the fear of getting deported. That's what they want. That's what they want. And all of a sudden, you have politicians demanding citizenship and blanking an embassy when it's never gonna pass the Senate. And again, again, just hype. It's all hype. And it's all this political maneuvering where one party things are gonna have the political advantage at the end of the day by legalizing 20 million voters. Yeah. And in essence, you can't put the toothpaste pack in the toothpaste tube. It's just hard to do at this point in time. So as we talk about Christ-centered higher education and our students today, so faculty listening, students listening and producing graduates in the marketplace, Sam, when it comes to Hispanic or African-Americans, even Asians in certain perspectives and in certain attitudes and even policies, what should a faculty member think in preparing the students to enter this culture and what should our students be thinking as far as being not about the donkey or the elephant but about being all a part of the lamb? How should we engage in these tensions? A Christian ethos in a 21st century wine skin reality requires all of us to espouse the not just the notion, the truth that Christians must emerge as cultural influencers, architects and reformers. That our eschatology has to match our missiology, which means we need to tell our students, yes, Jesus is coming, but while we're waiting for Jesus to come down, he's waiting for his church to stand up. And we need to be the most influential voices in culture because we can bring people together. And we need to be independent of political manipulation from either the donkey or the elephant and what we must be married exclusively to the lamb. It doesn't mean you don't vote here. Quite the opposite. It means you vote, but you're an independent person. You're not bound to a political ideology. I have issues. I have issues when 83% of evangelicals of a certain color vote one party no matter what happens and 92% of blacks vote one party no matter what happens. Guess which community is not like that and I'm not doing some self-promoting here. Guess which community is independent and proven this past November? The Latino community said, we're going rogue. You guys are all married to parties. We're going independent. We're pro-life, pro-religionist liberty, biblical justice in Jesus' name, definitely no to socialism. Well, we're going rogue. We're not going to join one party or the other, but we're going to vote our values every single election. That's our educational system should prepare individuals who are committed to the lamb's agenda and emerge as architects, reformers, and influencers in this current 20% reality. Yeah, you know, it takes a little bit of courage to stand up and say something. And I'm saying this for the ears and for the eyes watching us on this webinar tonight. I mean, I lived it. I came from Ohio, went to California in 1999. You gave me an education on immigration in Ohio. The only immigration we had was the Amish coming over from Pennsylvania. That's all we have. So I understood that a lot of people in the East Bay could easily say, hey, round them up and send them home while they're in their car going the Whole Foods and picking the produce out of Whole Foods, but they're not doing in the Valley for 14 hours a day. There was a disconnect there. So there has to be an element of sincerity, of conviction, of honesty, and transparency, and then courage to say, this is not justice. It's not right. So encourage us, Sam, and the students listening. It's time to speak. Yeah, no, see, again, it's the beauty of understanding that these are individuals created in the image of God. And again, the fact that many came here illegally is something that we address through legislation. But man, the hardest working people I've ever met in my entire life. That's Central Valley story. I've seen it. I've lived it out. And to have this community in perpetuity living in fear because both Republicans and Democrats play a political football with millions of individuals, to me, is morally reprehensible. I do believe, do you know what it is? Have millions of people who are politicians on both sides of the aisle play with you and play with your heart and play with your security and play with your sanity because you don't know what's going to happen. Eric, you know the story. I had a lady in my church, never had a parking ticket, came in here illegally 25, 30 years ago. Her kids were born here. Your kids don't even speak Spanish the right way. And all of a sudden, one day, they take that woman and they deport her. They deport her, not a parking ticket, not one crime. They pick her up and they deport her. My wife and I had to take care of a 14-year-old girl who was broken going, who would do this to my mom? Again, we don't want people coming here illegally, but we better put a different lens on as it pertains to the immigrant community, especially when they've been taking care of our businesses and sectors. And they are wonderful people created the image of God for 25, 30 years. And all of a sudden, we're thinking, we're going to deport 30 million people. We have to find a better solution, but we better demand from our politicians stop playing with human beings. These are not political tools of expediency. These are men and women created in the image of God. Yeah, yeah. And I couldn't agree more, Sam, and you know that. I mean, there's so many policy toys. It's like Catnip. And they change from administration to administration. So let me ask you this. And I'm going to hand it back to Dr. Sweden here at the end. Let me check for any more questions. Which administration, from your perspective, and not being partisan? If it was the Obama administration, then great. Which administration has attempted to deal with the immigration problem the best from your perspective? Easy, easy, easy, easy. George W. Bush. And why? Oh, goodness. George W. Bush had the answer. Everything I laid out before, he had the answer. Brilliant. Guest worker program, future entry, securing the border with technology, satellite, infrared imaging. We could read a license plate in Afghanistan. We can tell thousands of people when they're crossing across the Rio Grande, ladies and gentlemen. It's just a matter of allocating resources. So he would secure the border, stop illegal immigration, stop human trafficking. At the same time, grant our values, incorporate our values in making sure these men and women currently in our country would become legal. And without granting blanket honesty or citizenship, just the right way, earn citizenship, it would take them X years. You would have to cross these many obstacles. You would even have to go back to your country in certain cases, but redemptive. It was redemptive. It was beautiful. We play a couple of boats. We lost this. I know, I know. Can you believe that? And to highlight that, and then I'll be quiet because this gets me in passion and you know so. The reason why Bush had a handle on that, and this is now for us as believers, as Jesus followers, because Sam, he lived in close proximity to the pain, he understood the situation. Totally, totally. He lived in it. And by the way, y'all, if you don't know, the Bush family is from Jab and even George's younger brother, they're all married to Latinos. So the Bush family, when they gather together, that's a beautiful mix. It really is. So I mean, these live with the pain, but it's also part of its family narrative. Again, we could do better and hopefully and prayerfully we will. Yeah. Well, Dr. Sweet, I'll hand Sam back to you because if not, we're gonna have church break out and we'll be here too. Yeah, really. Eric, thank you. Eric is vice president of advancement at CCU and a beloved colleague and thank you for helping out tonight. Sammy, thank you so much for taking your time to be with us and just give us a little insight to help us think clearly and hopefully more Christianly about all these things. Let's advance Psalm 89, 14. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of God's throne. Truth and love lead the way as attendance. That's the purpose of the NHLC. That's my motto in life. I would say, Rodriguez, at the end of the day, I want to be known for a person committed to Christ, advancing righteousness and justice, truth and love. Not just love. It's all we do is love. Then we're just modern day hippies. Yeah, right, right. And all we do is speak truth that we're either mathematicians or maybe even possibly Pharisees. But when we reconcile truth and love, we are born again Christians. Righteousness and justice, truth and love, no hype. We can change the world. Amen. We got a minute left. Would you close us in prayer and just pray for the people watching this and who will watch it that we honor Christ in terms of all these issues? Heavenly Father, thank you for Colorado Christ University. Thank you for its amazing leadership. Thank you for every faculty member and trustees, student body, every student. Lord, this university is alive and well for such a timelessness. I pray that you will ignite a fire of revival and awakening to come out of this amazing institution where your name will be exalted, where the world will be changed as light once again pushes back darkness. Lord, do it again. Please activate the architect, the reformers and the influencers for thy name's sake. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Thanks, Sammy. Thank you everybody for joining us. God bless you. We'll be in touch. God bless. Thank you.