 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Angela Scott, and I'm the Library Assistant here at the Billy Jean King Main Library's Miller Special Collections Room. On behalf of our senior librarian Jade Wheeler, our Special Collections Librarian, Jeff Whelan, and all the staff here at the Long Beach Public Library, I'd like to welcome you to the second online event of the Miller Room's new artist workshop series. Today we are very pleased to bring you a special event moderated by comic book writer Mike Wellman with a special guest panel of comic book artists and writers. This is one of a series of programs that will be featured periodically in the Miller Room throughout the year, in addition to a variety of lecture series on local history, architecture and historic preservation, the spoken word, as well as our poetry and fiction writing workshops, our Miller Room Book Club and short story reading group, art programming, musical performance programs, and much more. Please keep an eye on our LBPL calendar website for upcoming events, and we hope you'll join us again for more of these special programs as they become available. Now, while we have you all here, we'd also like to mention some upcoming Miller Room programming for October. On Tuesday, October 19 from 530 to 7pm, please join us for our next Miller Room Book Club meeting. We'll be reading the 2004 New York Times bestselling nonfiction book, The Devil in the White City, Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America by Eric Larson. A creepy true crime story based around the 1893 Chicago World's Fair just in time for Halloween. Now, the Miller Room Book Club reads a rotating selection of fiction and nonfiction books, as well as short stories that generally focus on the Miller Room study topics and special collections relating to the arts and performing arts, Asian culture and heritage, local and California history, libraries and archives, and much more. This book club is currently meeting online via Zoom, and preregistration RSVPs are necessary. So keep an eye on our LBPL website at LBPL.org or our Facebook page for more details as the book club meetings will be presented there soon for advanced signups. You can also message me here in the live chat if you have questions or call the main library for further details. In addition, we're pleased to resume in-person programming for the fall as we launch our next Arts and Culture Lecture Series event on Saturday, October 30th from 2 to 4pm, entitled Music and the Movies, Exploring the Creepy Collaboration of Screen Legend Alfred Hitchcock and composer Bernard Herman. For more information, keep an eye on our website and our event calendar and Facebook page for the Zoom program, this in-person program, I'm sorry, which will be posted next week for advanced signups, and please stay tuned for other Miller Room programs you'll be rolling out in the next few months. And then finally, please stop by the Miller Room on the first and third Fridays of the month from 3.30 to 4.30pm to enjoy our new drawing and coloring club for adults, a fun adult-only opportunity to unwind and enjoy sketching, coloring, and listening to relaxing music while socializing and meeting new friends. A variety of coloring sheets and coloring pencils will be provided, though the visitors are welcome to bring your own coloring books, sketchbooks, and colored pencils as well. No registration is required to attend and walk-in visitors are welcome and social distancing will be observed. Again, if you'd like to learn more, keep an eye on our website for more details coming soon. Now, getting back to our program for today. It is our pleasure to once again welcome and introduce our special guest moderator for our program this afternoon, Mike Wellman. Mike has been a comic book writer and creator for 20 years and a comic shop retailer for 28. His comic book worlds include Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, World of Warcraft, as well as his own creation, Mac Afro, Gone South, and Guns of Blazin, to name a few. He's worked in a string of comic book stores before co-founding the comic bug in 2004 and then opening Atomic Basin Comics here in downtown Long Beach in 2020. He brings the unique perspective of having worked as both a retailer and a creator, as well as an educator at Otis College of Arts and Design, and at school and libraries all over the Southern California area. Welcome, Mike. Hey, you guys are about to see something amazing that doesn't happen a lot in 2021. We're about to make one, two, three, five dollars. Oh, nice. We're having a sidewalk sale. It's Grand Prix down here in Long Beach. I don't know if you can hear the roaring engines or not. I haven't heard them. But yeah, so I put a bunch of books on the sidewalk and they're moving. And they're moving. That's great. The best thing to get customers in your store is to apparently do a podcast because I've been sitting here twiddling my thumbs all day. You can get me to rest later, bro. It's okay. Well, speaking of moving, I'm going to move right along to our next group of special guests for our discussion today. Thank you. Thank you. Rafael Navarro, Don Nguyen, and Kristi Shen. So for over 20 years, Rafael Navarro has been working as a gun for hire artist in the diverse fields of animation, illustration and comic books. And he's earned a daytime Emmy as well as two other Emmy nominations for outstanding special class in an animated program. He's also a recipient of the Zurich Foundation Award. And as a story artist, he specializes in action and adventure but finds comfort in any genre, whether it's action, adventure, sitcom, cartoons, or even surreal. His only purpose is to always tell a good story no matter what medium it's in. His comic book projects include Gumby's gang starring pokey, Bella Lugosi's tales from the grave, as well as the Zurich award winning cult classic, Alucha Libre Filmoir Creation, being published in various languages, including Spanish, French, and Croatian. His latest book, Guns of Blazin, a science fiction western co-created with writer Mike Wellman, has now become a revered classic in the world of independent comics. His clients have included Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Warner Brothers, Nickelodeon, Mattel, Technicolor, Comedy Central, and Lego, just to name a few. And his show credits also include The Batman, Scooby-Doo, Spectacular, Spider-Man, Rugrats, Muchalucha, Lego's Hero Factory, Barbie, Shaolin Showdown, Wacky Races, and many more. Welcome, Rafael. Thank you. Now, Don Wynn is our designer, is a designer comic book and storyboard artist based in Los Angeles. He created Pablo the Gorilla, Jupiter the Space Pug, and co-created Kindle number one Inktober book, Siren Song, with writer Andy Nordwald. He designed the BLM Skull Fist for Punisher co-creator Jerry Conway's Skulls for Justice Black Lives Matter fundraiser. And he was a sketch card artist for Marvel Upper Decks inaugural Marvel anime trading card set alongside superstars Peach Momoko and Ray Anthony Height. The work has been featured in the Los Angeles Times, The Guardian, ScreenRant.com, and BoingBoing.net. Welcome, Don. Thank you for joining us. And finally, last but not least, our wonderful Kristi Shin is an illustrator and comic artist who lives in the city of Los Angeles as well. She likes drawing nasty gross things about people she cannot stand. The comics include the titles Demon Bitch, Supple Curt, and Personal Monsters, and she is a winner of the Ringo Award. She also hosts a lunch hour, most days on Monday through Friday, from 12.30 to 1.30 p.m. Pacific Time on Facebook Live, Twitch, and YouTube. Welcome, Kristi, and thank you all with you for joining us today. We're really looking forward to getting started. And then just finally, one last comment. During the program, please feel free to type in any questions or comments in the chat bar that you'd like to share with Mike or other special guest panelists. For those who may not be familiar with the chat feature, you'll see a chat button at the bottom of your screen. Click on it and you can type and submit your questions there. Q&A during the program will be moderated by me. And the other guests who are here will be available for answering questions. The program will officially end at 4.30 p.m. And we will be sending out an email in the coming week or so with a link to the archive video recording of this program so you can watch it later at your leisure as well. And if for some reason you have difficulty with your audio or video during the program, please let us know in the chat so we can try to assist you. All right, so thank you again for joining us everyone. And without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the Miller Room is very pleased to present our very special guests, Mike Wellman and friend. Hey guys, welcome. Not really used to looking out into an empty crowd, but I'm going to pretend you're there and I know you're there cybernetically. They're also here in spirit. Exactly. Angela, Angela, well, behold. So, okay, there you go. So when you put together a panel, you got to be careful, you don't want to put too many people on the panel because you want to give people room to breathe and room to talk and speaking of that. We want to focus heavily on this Christie Shin because I know she's got to leave a little bit early I think so. Give her a little more attention than everybody else don't get jealous. Raf and Don, but I selected this group of creators. Because I think that they each, well, we're all independent for one and we wanted to do something that was independent focused form for comic book creating. They also each have a very different approach to how they meet comics and how they further their careers, as they say, how they put their careers out there. And I think that we can learn, I can learn even something from what each of them has to offer. So I'm going to start with Christie, because like I said, she's got to bounce early and we want to, you know, put her in a hot seat as it were. Because like, you know, when she answers the question and we can all be thinking how to sound cool. But Christie, she is a very unique individual creator. And I daresay friend in my life. She cracks everybody up anybody who spends, you know, five minutes with her like she, she's no holds bar. And hence the title of her comic. And but on top of that, she also like curates fine art galleries and and does, you know, just crazy things like as she's a foodie and my girlfriend loves her and they go get ramen together and stuff. So Christie, what made you decide were you a fine artist or were you a comic book artist first or both at the same time? Oh, it started off as like a fine art, fine art graphic artist, like I decided to kind of go out and break into the world. And how I decided to make money initially was, you know, graphic design, you know, that's like, okay, more utilitarian and in the meantime, I can go build up my illustration, which I did. And then I graduated to comic art. Now I did it kind of started doing it about 10 years ago, but I was just trying to practice and I didn't have the rig that I had now. And when I first drew, they said, Oh, well, and I was kind of getting into the whole like how to do comics and introduce yourself into them. I was in Santa Barbara at the time, so it's kind of quiet. And they said, Oh, do a DC page and I did it and it sucks. So, you know, don't even ask about that. But I just said, okay, fine. And then, but as time grew on and then I moved down to LA, I found out there's a lot more avenues to do comics and independent comics. And with the advent of technology, not only did I get a better rig, like I have a surface right now that I'm talking on that I'll probably draw and simultaneously later. But also, you know, I have a waycom tablet that I draw directly on that makes it easier for drawing and editing. And I had been really into independent comics for the past like 20 some odd years, if that dates me, I like to get into the Hernandez brothers and then it was more of like I got into Johnny Ryan. Now Johnny Ryan's not safe for kids or for work. So go from there. But you know, like heavy metal things like that. But then like I started getting really into indie comics because the flu it was more fluid was more free flowing and with life experience. I came up with demon bitch and it all just kind of came together and all that. So demon bitch from what I remember over conversations is somebody you do. Yeah, I knew people knew girls like that and I know some people get mad at me. I've had other people kind of get mad at me like why girls? Well, it's like there's an unspoken thing that I just come out with is that if you're a woman, you have been badly burned by another woman. And I know guys, guys go like, well, I've been about, okay, it's not about you guys right now. But what it is that like girls can be really mean to each other. And that's like the elephant in the room. And even though we're saying, oh, solidarity and all that, it's like, no, there's a lot of girls that still backstab each other until we solve that problem and be honest about it. I mean, with a men's perspective, maybe two, but I'm just focusing on what I know, you know, you have to own up to that crap. And, you know, if we want to be better people. And so demon bitch was kind of based off of kind of like Matt Groening. He does the symptoms. He did life in hell. So I did personal monsters as the intro to the to the universe of demon bitch because it was just basically the origin of the species. But for butt heads, right? But then demon bitch kind of focused on one character that I knew like of the women that I admit. And initially they seem nice when I went to LA, but they turn out to be like really horrible drug addicts. And I don't mean that all drug addicts are bad people or people with mental illnesses or bad people, but there are people that are jerks no matter what flag they fly under. And you have to like get that. And the thing is like this person, like I had met so many people that so many women that had like egregiously lied and just essentially like just did these uber dramatic things. And with the advent and the right advent of social media, you know, it got worse. Like they would say, Oh, I got into an accident instead of writing. Yeah, this is what happened. They basically kick, you know, they basically say, I went down the steps and I slipped and then all this other stuff happened. And then I slipped or flew across and I broke my foot into place. I'm like, okay, just say you broke your foot into places after slipping. Like, but you kind of know now like as social media is like dominated our perspective for 20 years roughly. I was there at the beginning of it. That still continues to date me, but it's like it kind of has re you kind of now recognize sort of the level of attention whoring some people get to. And that's, and especially with some women, it gets tiresome. Like people go on there, they screed, and they say things like it's really important. And then they kind of go like, okay, I am a warrior now by what I did or I everybody I'm the star of my own melodrama. And it's like, to a certain point, I get that in life. But it's not, it's to a point where it's really over petty stuff, really honestly, and it's really not important. So for me, a lot of the time, I personally don't put too many personal things on my social media. I prefer to talk to friends personally, but I'll put stories. I'll put stuff that I'm doing up because for me, I'm pretty public as a figure. As far as I know, I mean, I go to cons people are getting more and more familiar with my work. So I have to go and put that part out there. Like this is what I'm working on. This is what I'm working on. Maybe a few ansidote ansidotes here and there about what I do. But other than that, you know, it's like, really, I think what people have forgotten us over social media is like, we share what we choose to share. Yeah. Now real quick, before we move on to Don, do you find that your work with demon bitch has it provided the shield for you against the kind of people you're talking about? I think it's a way of kind of, I don't want to say policing because that makes me know better, but it kind of just makes the person more aware. Like when they see it, I never put names and I never put like exactly like what they do or something, you know, in terms of like specifics like where they live or anything. It's more of like, I put certain actions that I find stupid up there, but I don't put their names or anything identifying as how they would in real life. Because I want to give them a chance to change, you know, like this is the shipper personality. This is the demon bitch personality stuff like that. You know, and you can leave it behind. It can just live in its own little fetid pull of fetid pool of like filth, but you can go on you can dump that that's not you anymore. So that's how I feel about that in general. So I think in a way it's kind of funny. I was talking this over with actually ironically Mog earlier and I was saying that it's kind of funny because like a lot of the things that the artists complain about like they don't respect my stuff. They put their drinks and food all over my stuff and I said, that's funny. I never get that. But then again, some people say you have demon bitch. So it's kind of like it makes you look evil or something like that. I'll be sure to do that the next convention for you so you don't feel left out. Okay. I'm sure everything is waterproof anyway over there. Moving on to Don real quick now Don. Don win is one of the if not the most but he's one of the most positive people in comics that I know and independent comics. He's really a force of nature. I think he's extremely talented. He's he's in my experience definitely a people pleaser. Hey, how's it going? And and he's just somebody like when you're around him, like it kind of rubs off on you a little bit, you know, I should maybe spend more time around him. But his comic is Pablo de Guerrilla. And it's I want to say and I could be wrong I could be going on a limb but there's there's like a hint of hell boy in it. But it's not like hell boy. It's like a gorilla that just wants to deliver pizza. So he's got like a really simple goal in life and things keep getting in the way. So that's why I guess I compare it to hell boy hell boy just kind of wants to get get by what he just happens to be like the son of Satan or something like that. Yeah, yeah. So Pablo's a heck boy. What's up with the pizza bro. So the joke that is one of my pitches for probably gorilla is will it be the next Ninja Turtles. I'm not saying it's not going to be but I'm not saying it is going to be so you'll just have to tune in to find out. I love how what I love Mike, you know, he's a huge influence on me and I think for Pablo de Guerrilla. It's an amalgamation of all of my influences I try to wear that on my sleeve I talk about my people impacted my art style and my, you know, just my comic acting in it all the time. Hellboy's in there. You know, James a bar with a crow. These are the Ninja Turtles. You know, just like Christie said, I think a lot of us that are in any constant even constant general, you know, we have such a love and respect for the media and you know that that's definitely in there, as well as some of the mainstream stuff like I think you'll see some hints of the Incredible Hulk and some Spider-Man in there as well. And in terms of character design will also see a lot of pop influence characters as villains. Looks like Mike has entertained some customers. But yeah, you know, just in terms of what we do I I don't know if it's necessarily that I'm super positive or that I just don't know better. I think when you get into the industry and you start putting that work and making work. There's a certain amount of maybe say that goes along with it and I'd like to hold on to that and cherish it. And I think that's kind of the perspective that I come from. And I don't know if there are any people out in the audience that are looking to make comics. But you know, our medium is so full of different styles and different ways of telling a story. And it's not, you know, it's not about one thing or other or like a house style for like Marvel or DC or like, you know, I look at any of the indie publishers that are even, you know, well respected and big like a graphics, you know, like Chris mentioned earlier with the Hernandez Brothers, or you know, like, boom or IDW the styles are changing. And even, you know, one of the biggest producers of comics over the last few years has been Kickstarter and crowdfunding campaigns. And you see that there's a market out there for different stories. For different funny books like I used to think of comics as a very serious thing and now I love to say that I'm here just to make funny books. Because I think, you know, there, there is an intrinsic quality in comics that lends itself towards humor even in really dark moments. There's, there's something for everybody I feel like and it's a special medium that we operate in existence. And I just love promoting, I love finding new projects and meeting new creators. And I think, you know, having that community, fostering it and growing it, introducing it to younger audience and having, you know, just the next generation in line ready to create. That's gonna, you know, it's part of not only pop culture, but I think culture in general, you know, talking about the advent of comics. To me, that started with cave paintings, right? Like the first comics are kind of just on walls with animals. And, you know, and that's where the narrative, the idea of humans wanting to put up the narrative of what they experience, I think comes from whether we tell that through, you know, an avatar like a Pablo or a demon bitch, you know, with anecdotal stories, all the way to a superhero that's well known like a Spider-Man or Superman. I think a lot of creators carry or add just a certain amount of personification and personality that's within them to what they do. One of the things I respect about you and admire is, because I follow you on social media and, you know, I see when you're going to conventions and doing that. You know, you don't make it all about Don Nguyen. I very rarely do you even talk about your creations. I had to pull it out of you. When you're doing a show, you put together a map for, you know, who's going to be where, when they're going to be there, what their table is. You know, when somebody has a new Kickstarter or whatever, you're always promoting that on your page. And again, like, I think that a lot of us creators, we get too absorbed in ourselves, you know, and you're out there projecting not just for yourself. I mean, every once in a while you do. I mean, the BLM image was just spectacular. Thank you. You know, you should write that all the way to the grave, you know? I mean, hopefully it'll be irrelevant at some point, right? I would hope so, yes. But no, you're really good about, you know, like promoting other creators. You want to speak to that? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, as I said before, you know, what we do is community, but I also came into this medium of fan first. I grew up with comics. I love comics. You know, I discovered comics in a library for the very first time. I still started, you know, I was born and raised partly in Seattle, Washington. And you know, the first time I ever saw comics, my mom would go to the library to study. And she would just drop me off in the kids section. And that's where I discovered amazing comics like Uncanny X-Men. I think John Burma was having a run at that time. So, you know, that really sticks in my mind. Storm with the Mohawk will always be my storm. I, you know, I grew up watching in syndication. They had the Batman 66 series. And I didn't even know that those were comics. I just was like, oh, Batman's a character. And I think a lot of the public still, even in this day and age, they'll realize where a lot of these characters that they see on screen come from, that they originated in comics. And that's, that's where the story and the origins lie. And to me, yeah, you know, I do it not just because it's promotion for me, but oftentimes I'm just a huge fan. And I just had the privilege, the pleasure and the privilege of meeting so many wonderful people. You know, like, for example, for Brisa Polsky, who's the co-creator Spider-Man Noir, who you're friends with. I had the honor of tabling next to him at ComCon Revolution Ontario a couple years ago before the pandemic struck, struck all this down from attending conventions. And that was an amazing experience to be able to sit next to somebody that's a veteran in the industry or, you know, like Raphael, for example, who's worked on the Batman and Shaolin showdown, which was just, you know, like some of my favorite shows. And that is a privilege. And I feel like every day that I get to do this is a huge privilege. And I just love sharing people's stuff and love seeing, because it to me is all fodder for inspiration. I try to take it in and grab the bits and pieces that I can, and then hopefully use it in my own work and remix it in a way. And, you know, show that love back to what I have just been holding on to all this time. And again, I think that's a huge part of fostering the building community and leaving something for the next generation and bringing them along for the ride. Because, you know, I always hear, it's really funny, I always hear that sort of refrain of the comic book industry is dying. But honestly, people have been saying that for decades and it hasn't happened yet because there is always going to be somebody new with a really interesting idea and interesting story to tell from their point of view that has never been told before and hasn't been told exactly the same way. And they're going to add their nuance to it. I see Christy is sharing her screen and drawing and I'll be doing that in a bit. But yeah, that's essentially why I suppose I do what I do. It's just, you know, I love this medium that we're in so much. And I feel like there's so much potential and promise that has happened and still is happening to this day. You know, you see projects out there, you know, for example, like Jeff LeMere is killing it with Descender and Ascender. And he's got some new books out or, you know, like a James Teenian kind of a writer. And there's new artists like Merca and Dolfo or Tony Fleaks with stray dogs. Like these are comics that are just coming out and they're just grabbing the hearts and minds of people out there. So yeah, I feel like, especially in any comics, there will always be so much to mine and to absorb and to appreciate. And I don't think that I'll ever stop as long as people are going to be creative. Very good. Now, Mr. Raffaele Navarro. What do you want for dinner tonight, sweetie? I can only ship you two. I might have to bail out because I just got asked to do some caricatures for a friend at a pre-Halloween event in La Merada. You know, I know he's lying for doing this on his phone. But anyway, it was just a joke. But Raffaele, you've been in this industry 30 years? Almost 30 years, yes. As an independent creator, first and foremost. What sort of changes have you seen over the years, like from technology to the audience to what creators are capable of doing with their own careers and whatnot? Why didn't the best thing, the obvious thing has always been technology. I mean, just like Don had mentioned, there will always be creators with something bold and brave and new to show another generation which might even be an old, exhausted idea to begin with, but to fresh eyes. It's basically water in a desert of creativity. So I think technology has been the best advantage for us all. I mean, we could do colored comic books now. We can do print-on-demand now. I remember a time when I was selling my little indie comic book literally outside parking lots, you know, with my back seat open there, my back trunk, you know, just selling comic books when I couldn't sell it at my local comic book shop. I also remember a time when I couldn't just fathom the idea that I would ever, ever be able to afford a colored comic book unless I had actually had a publisher to handle all that. A headache that comes with it and everything. Or even just to learn to lay things out. I mean, guys, check out InDesign. Put them, seriously, probably the most easiest best way to lay out a book. And then I think that's what publishers tend to look for now. If you could just give them a PDF of everything or like an InDesign little, they're looking for like one file now, not 250 or 550 odd pages. Just put them as a sort of put together. Even if they're digital, I mean, I guess technology has been helping us to become more organized, which gives us more time to be creative too. So if you have other ideas to pursue, I think this would be the perfect time to do so for you have technology to back you up. Cool. Well, you guys probably know me and massive, well, Best Bud's number one, but we've been sharing booths together probably. I mean, longer than Guns of Blazes. Far too long. Oh, really? Honeymoons over, Poli. We've been doing Guns of Blazes since 2013, but we were doing booths together with our own individual. Since like 2000. Yeah, 2000. So for a long time. And one of the things that I noticed and respect about Raphael is crowd interaction. So if you're an independent creator and your name maybe isn't like Jason Maboa or the guy who played Captain America or whatever. Wait, they draw? I'm impressed. No, but what I'm saying when you're at a convention, that's really kind of our competition. And RAF always brings a crowd. I mean, it's really admirable. Did you guys find everything? Okay, sorry. Star Wars on the spinner. And speaking of attracting crowds, this guy's not so bad either as you can see. May the force be with you. But so Raphael is really good. I would say exceptionally good with crowd interaction. Of course, it doesn't hurt that he's able to draw pretty much anything anybody asks for. I thought it was our guitar playing and singing. Oh, I mean we have all sorts of tricks up our sleeve. But Raphael speaks of that. Like as far as like you're at a show, you know, you don't show up in a t-shirt and jeans normally. I mean sometimes, but you're kind of treated as what it is. And it's a show. I've always believed in presentation. I mean, not that everybody should subscribe to this philosophy. But I approach comic conventioning like an old blues player. You know, you don't show up in your ratty ass. You know, Mick Jagger. Superman cape, you know, from the 60s or your beat up Batman shirt from 1989. Well, I like to wear a suit that tie and look kind of distinctive and, you know, just respectful only because I presume that people paid money to get into this thing. And the last thing they want to do is smell your laundry. What it looked like in your college years. So I try to, I guess in better terms, just, you know, give them a presentation, if you will. That reflects the art itself. Okay. And then when it comes to like commissions, good. So maybe some of the audience know or maybe they don't. But when it comes to like commissions, somebody wants you to draw Iron Man or somebody wants you to draw Batman or whatever. You know, some creators, the HR, yeah, it'll be 300 bucks. So like I have one of my customers, he brought in this picture we got from Long Beach Comic Con. And he's like, do you know who drew this? And I was like, I have no idea. And he's like, well, I paid 80 bucks for it at Long Beach. And I was like, um, and you don't know who it is. And he's like, no, I just asked for a flash and then he charged me 80 bucks, which I, you know, I kind of swindled. But ref, so when people approach you for commissions, what's your philosophy there? I tell them, well, how much you got? No, um, it's I, as you guys already know, I love to draw. I mean, I've been drawing for a living for almost pretty much 30 years. I've been drawing for fun even longer than that. So I will always be enamored with this wonderful craft that we work in and everything is wonderful industry. So safe to say it's not much of a secret when somebody asked me to draw them something. And yeah, I might actually kind of just looking forward to doing something, anything. If there's a monetary exchange in those in the store, I'm, I'm actually glad that something happens. But frankly, I'd be happy just to draw just all day. Matter of fact, I'm going to be drawing again for free later during the day after this thing too. So go figure. But that's understanding that it's always for free. That's for sure. No, but I'm all kidding aside, I mean, yes, I do have a list of, you know, prices, I suppose. Even then, I mean, I like to draw on the fly. I, depending on my inspiration, somebody might just say, can you just draw me a, the Spider-Man? Sure, I'll draw them a Spider-Man, right? And somebody says, can you do Doctor Strange? I look at my watercolor size. You know what? I think it's time I better crack out those watercolors. And frankly, it's an experience for myself too. I mean, if it thrills the, the seem to be owner of the artwork, you know, utterly. Rest assured of if there's any love that was put into it is only because I was reflecting my own love for the, for the craft itself too at the moment. So it's, it's lucky for them. If that's the case, you know, so remember kids, give me the more exciting ideas as opposed to some typical face of some early queen. Yeah. Yeah. Please know movies of the week that came out that, that Friday, please. Thank you. All right. Chrissy, I'm going to hop in if you don't mind. Sure. Oh, oh, drawing. I thought you had a question. No, no, no. Yeah. Any good comments or should I just do another round with the creators? Yeah. Just, uh, does anybody have any questions? Is Angela here? Oh, yeah, I'm here. Sorry. I'm actually under the pseudonym of Jade right now. We're playing musical chairs. Angela left the Miller room. Hence the middle of their icon looks very empty. Yeah. Um, so yeah, they're just that other computers having some technical difficulties or just switching locations. Um, but anyway, so we do have a few questions. Um, people like, you know, what are your favorite comics and superheroes? Anybody in general. If you have any, I'll start. I mean, I actually liked, uh, I actually like Kay and Yuri from dirty pair that Adam Warren did when he did the American port of dirty pair. Uh, I actually like cut some liquid from, uh, silent maybe as you probably have not heard of these, uh, this anime for quite a while. They're pretty old. Uh, and also I like silo from X men, which is hilarious. Okay. We got to throw it out to Lawrence Hubbard too. Hey, Lawrence. What's up? Hey, the real deal. That's his comic. Oh yeah. I thought you were asking a question or he was in the audience. I thought he was in the audience. Yeah. He might be. Oh, I don't think I saw that. Hold on. But anyway, Lawrence about real deal. Um, essentially like he does like a book about people in the ghetto like GC is gangster. Cool. There's ace and Willie. I think AC used to be a ex pimp and then there's Chino bill, which is like literally from prison and he's like, they go crazy and they kill people and they rob them and all this other stuff. And sometimes they measure like the actual news of today and there are times that there are some stories that I've actually collaborated with them about. I actually did a back cover of real deal. I think number eight. I think that's the most recent one. I'm fuzzy because it's been a while since I've actually like published published a comic, but that's one of them. And, uh, real deal. So yeah, real deal. He did one called Psyop. That was actually pretty cool. And there was an idea like sometimes like we'll get these random ideas. And I saw one about the messed up funeral homes in the, in the south. You know, the ones where they had all the bodies in the. Oh yeah. They just thrown them into like, yeah. Yeah. So I had to be buried as unfortunate. Yeah. I don't want to ruin anything, but I think with that guy, like he's definitely getting a story out there pretty soon. He also like, I also curate art at the hive gallery and studios. And I actually was it today is the last day you can catch it. It's called called the siren femme revenge. And I have actually curated that whole show. His piece is in there. It's called pork foot smokes, angel dusts and things. She's a mermaid. So you can see what's there. Sounds right up your alley. Where are you? Why not? Right. I'm listening. Huh? Where's the hive gallery? That's at 729 South spring in downtown LA. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And you put together a really cool show from what I didn't make it to the show, but I saw it online and, and yeah, that's pretty awesome. So. Thank you. Thank you. I took the, I took the moment to make every kind of every wall, uh, other wall count because there were some pieces that were so huge. They had to be put on a different wall in the back. And it was like, okay, well, I got to feature these two and they all fit together. And it was weird because it's like, usually the hive will have two or three art shows going at once, you know, to break it up or whatever. But what was very strange was that they usually have like a regular group show. And then they have, you know, the themes, one of the theme shows. And then another show and two featured artists. Well, it was getting so big. My show that everybody was submitting to it that they just had, you know, screw it. We'll just put the, we'll just get rid of the group show and just put it all in and integrate it. Nice. Yeah. Cool. And Don, you kind of touched on the characters that inspired you already. So, uh, Jay, do we have, uh, uh, another question and we could throw it Don. Sure. For Don, um, a question for you, what, what would be a dream project for you to work on? Uh, a dream project. Uh, there's so many dream projects. I always joke about, uh, I would love it if I could get Pablo to deliver pizza to the Ninja Turtles. Uh, that would be amazing. But, you know, for me, any dream project is being able to draw comics, uh, just being able to draw any day of the week, if you will, and get paid for it. Um, you know, ultimately, if you can walk away with something that you can show somebody, I think that is like one of the biggest highs that you can get as a creator. Um, and, you know, I've, I've been honored to have been a part of, uh, quite a few projects. Um, and a few projects that are coming out soon, too. So, I hope, uh, everybody follows along. But yeah, you know, even if I could do characters that I grew up with, uh, in sequential comics, uh, you know, like if I could land, uh, a Batman book or Spider-Man book, that would also be amazing. Uh, if I could draw, uh, Hellboy, that would be super cool, or the Ninja Turtles. Uh, so, yeah, to me, it's like, if I have the opportunity, any opportunity to work on any character that I love, I think that would be the ultimate joy for me. Uh, in addition to doing what I'm doing now, which is, uh, working on indie projects and, uh, continuing Pablo, which, uh, hopefully I'll have more by the end of the year, so we'll see how that goes. Cool. What do we got from Mr. Navarro over here? Um, what? Okay, so, um, what about as, um, as a writer, have you ever had writer's block? And what do you do about it? Is this for me or the writer in the room? Well, it's for any writer. Or as an artist, what do you people have artist's block? Well, as a writer and artist, Angela, I don't have anything of the sort. Believe it or not, my, um, my curse now is when I look at a blank page like this, I can't wait to fill it up with something, anything. It's an OCD thing. I don't know what it is, but, um, so long as I still have that love for doing what I do, I think I'll be okay, but, um, I think the block I would probably get is that I have to stop and sleep. I have to stop and pay bills. I gotta stop and, you know, go do something responsible. That's my only, um, hesitation to create, which is, I guess, good for the moment. Mr. Wallman. In addition to that, I mean, writer's block, um, uh, I guess some people stop for it. Um, maybe cause I don't put books out as frequently as, like, I don't have a monthly gig where I have to put out Spider-Man every month. Uh, I have, if anything, um, writer's blockage, uh, where, like, I have no shortage of ideas that I want to do. Yeah, statistically. Well, I mean, I'm backed up. Yeah, I have a lot of ideas. Uh, you know, and, um, yeah. So, uh, it's just a matter of getting around. I mean, with, with me, cause I'm a self publisher, it's not just the time of day to do it, the time to write it, you know, work with an artist. And usually I work with Rafa, but I do work with other artists. Um, but it's also the resources, like, to, to get something out. Um, my, my main, uh, stream of income, uh, with my writing career is comic conventions, which have been on hold for almost two years. Uh, there are some happening now, but there's a lot of expenses involved in, in getting there, staying in a hotel on this and that. And, and my focus has been, uh, down here at atomic basement at the store here in Long Beach. Uh, 400 East 3rd Street, right down the street from the library. Um, and, uh, so, you know, I have a lot of ideas. Me and Raf have two ideas that are kind of simmering. Uh, and I've got some other things and I've got some things people have asked me to do. Um, and, you know, I'm just waiting for them to be ready on it. Uh, so yeah. If I may add to your writing perspective, like for my observations, which you give me when you write for me, believe it or not, it's, it's for Mike, it's, it's when he can spare the time because believe me, this guy's schedule is just insane between running a business and everything and everything else that has to be done before the day is done. It's, it's magical. It's, it's a blessing when I get something from this man. And maybe that's probably what, why I think it's very fresh and filled with energy and just, it just can't wait to be drawn to be quite straight. Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it is like fine wine for a better definition. I mean, probably because he's had all this time to just work on it mentally here than when he was finally, when he's finally able to unleash it onto the world, finally puts it on paper mode. Sorry. You know, it actually, but it's, it's amazing. I can't draw for anything. As you saw when I tried to do your portrait earlier. So, but what I can do is, is when I write a script, I write as a communication to whichever artist I'm working with. So anyway, but yeah, next question. Let's, let's send her over to Christy. All right. So for Christy, do you have any recommendations on artist block or when you can't write, you know, what kind of inspiration you use and any other further comments on that? Well, I think for me, I think the thing is with block, you're thinking so hard with things that you're already kind of empty of at that moment. Now this will kind of make sense. So what I do, if I have artist block, I'll just start drawing random stupid things. Now people go like, well, I've had the artist block, I had it for this many amount of time, blah, blah, blah. I want to draw this epic thing. Okay, don't focus on the epic thing. Draw a lot of little stupid things. And that, what that does is that it takes the importance or the thing of the thing and just kind of makes you sort of relax and you just draw, draw whatever. Therefore it opens your mind up to more creative things. In general, there are times also you just have to admit yourself, I can't draw today. Like I just have nothing. So I'll just go through a bunch of lines on paper or whatever. Like you probably saw me earlier today as I was drawing, I just was drawing a bunch of like silly little things. Because it was like, I was kind of in the space of trying to get my brain into something or into a mode or wake it up. For the other ones, sometimes like for other things, sometimes I'll get like a piece of song in my head or something and I'll play it over and over. I mean, that might be irritating to somebody that I'm around, but that's why I have earbuds. Or I'll like play like maybe a clip from a movie, like a fight scene. That's what kind of interests me or a music video. But sometimes I'll just get cat videos out and just look at them. I know that sounds like the weirdest thing ever, but that actually puts your brain into relaxation mode, at least for me. So you're more open to things coming out. What are you taking out? Really? That is so interesting. Yeah. Kristi, real quick, I know you got a leaf soon. Can you tell the people where you're headed, what you're doing tonight? Well, right now tonight, I am going to soapbox, soapbox, let me take a look. So box station and it will be at 1407 North Arrowhead Avenue in San Bernardino. So I'll be selling my books there as well as different things. Yeah. So like come on by, take a look. We'll be there from about, I think five to nine today. So I'll be in San Bernardino 1407 North Arrowhead Avenue. It's a soapbox station. It's going to have like a lot of artists and everything. Is it free admission? Do you know, or? Um, I think it maybe or it's not very expensive. It's like, it's very, very cheap. Yeah. You do a lot of shows. Um, how do you keep that ball rolling? You know, I talk to people. I know a lot of people go like, oh, I'm, I'm looking at the prices. I'm looking at them doing this. You know, I just, I generally like talk to a lot of people and sometimes it just comes to me. And I know that sounds weird to say, but the more you kind of relax, the better everything kind of comes to you. I mean, you should put in the hard work. And I definitely do like talking with people, putting together an effective campaign, all these other stuff, but sometimes you just have to let that momentum bring the things back. And what happened was, is that I was in, I had met it through another artist at the Hive gallery, uh, intergalactic. I'm trying to remember intergalactic, uh, Emporium. And it was a little pop up little art thing, art store and all that over there. And then, um, there was a guy there. He came up and he was just asking other artists, Hey, do you want to go to my pop up still pop event and everything else? And that's what he was asking us for. And he says, And that's the one. And all that. Yeah. So it's just sometimes just people come out of the blue to ask you. Others like the thing, what I have to enunciate is, you know, you don't need to do this to people that don't treat you nicely, but it really costs, it really costs you nothing to be a decent person to people. Right. You become friends with people and don't become friends with them because you're going to get something. Just be friends with them. It just let it happen organically because I got to the Merced con because I got a referral through another friend of a friend. Like I met this person. And Patricia Summerlin, she's actually one of the original girls of blow. I met her through my friend, rich parota who used to work for Marvel back in the day in King and drawing. And we just became all good friends. And then she referred me to this other guy that does, um, the Merced con. And now he's asked me to go into another con to do that. Yeah. So it's just like you, you get somewhere by knowing people, you get somewhere by doing business, but in doing business, you don't have to be a jerk or you have to be cold. It's like, we all know we're in it together. We're all know that we're doing business together. We all know we have to support each other. But, you know, at the same time, it's like it really pays to actually be a personal individual. And I'm not saying be fake, but like you're here to establish a relationship with people. And that's what you're supposed to do. Like, you know, here we've kind of established a relationship with Angela, you know, Don, we established a relationship, you know, meeting each other at cons, getting to know each other. You and I have done that, you know, Raphael and I have done that as well as like with a lot of our network. We're all friends. We all say, oh, hi, we invite each other to things. That's how it works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not it. The thing is like people make it overly complicated. It really isn't. You just be a good person to people and you learn and you grow. And if you have a common thing, and yes, sometimes it is just business. Sometimes it is just that that's okay to do sometimes, but don't be so driven. Like some of the quote unquote Hollywood people that are like, Hey, if they like you, they'll ask you to do cocaine in the back room or something. So, you know, that type of level of toxicity. Yeah. And it's not something you should take really anyway. So, um, you know, that's clarifying. Yeah. Believe me, that has been told asked of me many, many times. Apparently when I've been in LA parties and they asked me that, I'm like, and I usually say, uh, thanks, but no, but that's apparently how in LA they show they like you. So. Oh, okay. It's in that section. I have one more quick question for you, Chris. If you have time, like another day. Yeah. Okay. So as a girl drawing gross stuff, like how did you evolve into that? How does it differentiate you from other artists and, you know, whether man, woman, like how did you get into that? And it certainly is distinctive because I would imagine not as many girls draw that as much as maybe guys. So. And that's a mass generalization. Don't hurt me for saying that, but like, no, no, no, no. I know it was a kind of a weird question. I know it's a weird question that I bring up a lot, but I always answer the weird questions and everything. And, you know, I was the one kind of that kind of threw it out there because, you know, I always meet it face on anyway. Like people can ask me that question all the time. You know, um, I think with a lot of girls, we kind of held each other or hold ourselves back. And before you say patriarchy and all this other stuff, but it's also like, I think we hold ourselves back mentally too. Like because I think somebody will think of me of this or because I think of the existing structure, I have to do this. And in all honesty, like a lot of the time, I have just grown to not care about what people think to a point. And also most of the time I found out when I did care, most people really didn't have the time to think of me in that way. That's been my feedback of my personal life. And my mom was the type of person like she's, she was basically a real estate agent in Silicon Valley where she graduated to the top 5% of sales by herself. She never was complaining. Like she just worked her butt off and she just did what she did. She didn't ask for anybody's permission. She just did it. She didn't get hung up on a lot of stuff. And for me, the reason why I draw a lot of gross stuff, well, I had a lot of guy friends. So like a lot of guys will try to gross each other out. So I'm being a little competitive. So, and it's not because I'm a girl because I just wanted to one up them and say, Oh yeah, it's like this, this and this. I said, Oh yeah. And so I'd say it and they'd be like genuinely disturbed mentally after I was done. So with me, it's like, I noticed like girls don't let themselves draw gross things to the way that guys do. And it's not because I'm a girl or they're a guy. It's just guys just kind of naturally fall into it where girls are kind of like, well, I don't know. I don't know if I should do that because of this. I said, you're just drawing it on paper. So I kind of have now it's evolved where I actually dress really nice, but then I draw the most horrible things ever. And I think it's my little jerk way of going like, I like messing with people's skulls. So it actually makes it more interesting and more. More weird or something, but I just kind of like doing it. I think that's the thing. If I'm not laughing like a jerk when I'm drawing the cartoon, then it's not something I want to do. So it doesn't, it comes out on paper. So it's like whatever I feel inside will come out on paper. And so sometimes it's just like, I just, it's kind of like quoting Johnny Ryan, who's like the king of gross. He just said like, yeah, there were times I think that I can't, I shouldn't even do that. But then turns out I should have done it anyway. So I'll like post something at Uber offensive and people love it. So that's what I like about it. It's like Trisha has a question. What training classes school have folks gone through to get where you are? Anybody want to take that first? I'll do it first because I have to leave pretty quickly. Yeah, I actually went to UC Santa Barbara to draw, but I have been drawing all my life. But to get any formal training, I went to get a bachelor of arts and film studies and art studio separately. An art studio is multidisciplinary. So I would go and I draw a life study to learn multimedia, to learn fine art. So it was like all in one package, but it was a good way to kind of get all the ideas and port the, port each of those applications into how I could make them profitable or I could make them into a presentation because sometimes like with the older school artists, they don't even put together a website. It's like you need to. So it's given me good skills in order to go and put that in the game. And then I just went into game design and I'm actually designing a game for demon bitch. So which is hilarious. So it's like, it's sort of all these little things are kind of adding up to get me to do it. And again, that doesn't mean I know everything about game design. It's just, I know enough to kind of get the process started. How about you, Don? What's your team? For me, in terms of comics, I'm self taught and I continue to teach myself every day, but I actually did go to art school and unfortunately for me, art school had no technical training. I went to UCLA for art school. So it was all theoretical. So I actually spent most of my time at UCLA, doing sculpture and performative work, which is interesting. You know, I started out as a lot of Asian kids. Do I imagine doing biology and pre-med and then I hated it. Even though I love biology. It just UCLA wasn't the right place for me for that. And I decided sometime in my junior year that I would take art and try to learn something. And it was one of the most difficult things I ever did. So don't let anybody tell you that artists are lazy. I crammed a four year program into about a year and a half, two years. And it is fiscally intensive and grueling. But yeah, I learned a lot about art history and the art world and how to think about art, which is important. Not only to comics and what we do, but I think it gives a different understanding and perspective on how to handle things. And you do learn a little bit about studio and the fine art market and how that world is as well. So that definitely is an eye opener. I've had the honor of being in shows and commissions that way. But yeah, in terms of comics, you know, I learned by reading comics and I learned from making them and doing them. And, you know, you always want to look for people that you admire. And I feel like, you know, just speaking about the industry that we're in and the community that we're all part of and we're trying to grow. And like Christy said, you know, in terms of the networking, I feel like this is one of the few industries where you could actually meet a lot of new heroes. I know people always say, don't meet your heroes. But I felt like I've met a lot of my heroes and they've all been wonderful and kind to me for the most part. And, you know, that's that's something I carry with me and I cherish and I try to pay that forward a lot. And, you know, you see with you guys, you know, like Mike, what you do for the community in terms of how you support the creators from time to talk about all the way into what you're trying to do now with the atomic basement creator lab. Like, you know, what, what, what you do is fantastic. If they're you're, you're, you're building that community and you're, you're putting forth the next generation of creators to come through your shop and you stock indie books on your shelves and you have Christy's book. You have Pablo de Grillo on there. You have books from, you know, other members of the conflict creative, creative collective that I'm a part of sketchy bugs. So it's really, you know, that's, that's the retailer and to, you know, of supporting and growing this foundation of the medium that we're in. And, you know, that, that adds to my education. Like every time I see a new creator doing something cool, you know, I want to learn about what they're doing and how they do it. And I keep seeing new influences, you know, people bringing in like, for example, I'll bring in some of my graffiti background and admiration for graffiti as well as any manga or anime influence. And Christy, I know you have a little bit of the same too. And then you have like, you know, really expressionistic style as well. And I think, you know, we all carry and implement these tools that we pick up along the way. So I don't think we ever stopped learning. No, no. And speaking of, I actually have to just take this brief because I don't want to interrupt anybody. I do have to go, but it's been fun talking to you guys and being with you guys on a panel. And if you have any questions, they will be putting my information up there too. So contact us. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Mike. And we'll be including the links in the chat too for people. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm great. Thank you. Thank you. Back to what you were saying earlier, Don, about, you know, fostering the creative community. You know, I moved here from North Carolina with no idea what the heck I was doing, how to do it, how to go about it. Yeah. And, you know, kind of pretty much learned the hard way. And, you know, I'm still not perfect. I'm still learning. But that community started with the creator groups. And so we were having signings like with people like Richard Starkings, who's like the number one premier letter in the industry, you know, all of these people. And, you know, people that aspire to be creators become and listen and learn and things like that. And then it kind of, I think it was Don Walker and a couple of guys who were like, you know, we're sitting here and we're listening and we're learning, but we're not really making comics. And that was how that was the seed of what became sketchy bugs. But what makes me proud is like, I knew you, I think you did that book with Andy Norval. It wasn't a comic book. It was more like a poetry book or something. Yeah. It was a prose book. We did, we were the first team to take all 31 Jake Parker's prompts in 2017 for Inktober. And we created a continuous story from beginning to end with all 31 prompts. And amazing. The book went number one on Amazon Kindle, top 100 in print. And you know, that was, that was a huge honor. But yeah, we did 31 plates of art and Andy wrote 31 chapters and 31 days. And that's, that's kind of how I broke into the scene, you know, with comics. And, you know, part of that, you know, we're talking about media heroes, you know, part of the inspiration behind that was, you know, I got to know Dustin Wynn, two-time Eisner winner. Everybody knows him from Little Gotham and Detective Comics. He won obviously for his watercolor painting for Descender. And he's on Ascender with Jeff Lemire now. They're going to be launching Batman and Robin soon. You know, he got to know me and he would see my artwork. And every time I was catching him at the show, he would be like, Hey, are you putting anything out? And that, that really gave me the ibitus to start putting out my work as he would see it. And to me, you know, I, I about 10 years ago, I decided that I wanted to be in this industry, be a part of this industry, become a comic book artist. And I didn't really know how to go about it. And then, you know, from him saying that, I sort of just realized that it's about putting yourself out there and putting work out there so that other people can see it. So the, the greatest bit of advice that I could give anybody is to make comics. If you want to be in comics, just make comics and put them out there and get other people to see them. And you never know. It, it can come down to just one fan of your work who just loves it so much that they're, you know, they're willing to put themselves out there and promote for you. And I'm thankful that I have a lot of people who, you know, who are coming on board, whether that be because of the Inktober book, or that's because of Pablo Grilla, or the design I did for Jerry Conway. But, you know, they're, they're now with me and they're, they're very supportive. And I greatly appreciate that. But yeah, it all starts in one place, right? And that place to me is like you, you really do have to put yourself out there and get, get your work out there. Yeah. I remember the day you came into the shop, you know, back, I don't know, four years ago, maybe you had your first bag, the boarded copy of Pablo and you gave it to me. And I was, I was really touched and honored. I don't take credit for that. I did get a free sketch out of you on the back cover, I think. And, you know, a friendship that's continued on. But there was another customer, Don Borgmeyer, I think you know him. Yeah, Don just put out his, his comic on Kickstarter. Like, you know, that's a fantastic resource that we have now. Yeah. Well, he's got his first issue out and, and, but he was a, he was a subscription poll customer at, at my old store. And he came in and, and he was like, Hey, I think I want to do a comic book. And I just like, do it man. And then he started, he put himself to it, started to come to the creator meetings. He found himself fantastic because he's a, like me, he's a writer. He, he's not an artist. Although he is actually honing his art skills. But he found, yeah, he found himself a great artist. He put out a really touching book about a little kid in the orphanage that Yeah. Yes. Thank you. The name wasn't coming to me, but I've read it a couple of times. It's really good. And, you know, I, it's not like, oh, yeah, I mean that guy's career, anything like that. But it's like, oh, you know, some people, sometimes people just need a little spark, you know, or a little push into the, into the pool, swimming pool, the water's warm, you know. So that, that's what makes me feel good about the community that, that we have here in LA. And, and that's why I want to do the, you know, create his lab once things are a little more safer to be together like we used to be, you know. Yeah. Speaking of creators labs and your creators lab and also just creating. We've been watching Don sketching here for a good part of the last bit of the discussion. And you have this graphic design program up sketchbook. Maybe now's a good opportunity to just talk a little bit about the different graphic design programs or other programs that you would recommend software applications or whether free or paid for people who are getting started or who are. So part of my. Inctober presence is through Autodesk sketchbook actually they promoted. You know, they've promoted Inctober in the past and I was part of that and they promoted my work through siren song. So we were able to get some visibility to that. So I will always love out of this sketchbook. It's a free program. You can download it on almost any platform. It's available. I'm on a PC right now. And I use a Wisconsin teak. But I also use it on my phone. I use it to do all of my thumbnails and my layouts before I up res it and take it to final pencils and finishing. So I personally use Autodesk sketchbook. I have a lot of friends that also use Clip Studio. They have sales for that every year. And I think they're it's not about $60. Excuse me. $60 was a full app. And that's a fantastic application as well because that not only allows you to draw, but it sort of mixes elements of both Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator. So it allows you to vectorize images as well. I personally, the most intuitive program for me is sketchbook. Also, it's free. Which is my ally because I love things that are free. So I use that in conjunction with the Adobe suite. So I do all of my layouts and stuff from my phone on sketchbook and then I up res it. I do finishing and inking in a sketchbook on the desktop. And then I take my pages and I move that into Photoshop to do any coloring, a flatting work that needs to be done. And for flatting, anybody out there who doesn't know how comics work, we start with pencils. Then we find two more pencils. Then that goes into inking, which is what I'm doing now with this Hulk drawing. And then from there, usually colors. And if you're an indie creator, you most likely do all of these parts like myself. You then flat the work, which is you block out the colors. You block out all the shapes to make it a little more easy to render in coloring and then coloring because we live in a wonderful age of technology as Raphael was mentioning. We now can do that all digitally. And, you know, in this day and age, as Mike was saying with Don Borgmeier and myself, I'm a huge proponent of crowd funding and Kickstarter. If you follow me on Twitter, Instagram, I talk about crowd funding all the time. I love to promote and support Kickstarter because that in itself is a community. So, you know, there's Venn diagrams in the comic book world and Kickstarter definitely fits in there. And, you know, there's Indiegogo is another huge platform that people crowdfund on. And yeah, so I think we live in a wonderful time where you have all these applications and utilities at your hand and you can do this because like 15, 20 years ago, this wasn't a possibility that you could go and have people see your work and support your work in this method. You know, the story always tells the Ninja Turtle story, right? Like Kevin Easton and Peter Laird had to use their own money to print out 10,000 copies of their comics. And nowadays you can have people see your work and support you and get your work just by doing a Kickstarter. And, you know, then they receive your work and you're able to put your work out there and then carry your work from show to show. And it's an amazing, amazing resource to have. But yeah, so my phone that I use, I use a Samson Galaxy series phone. I've been with Samson since the note two. I'm now in the note nine. And yeah, so once everything is colored, we do that in Photoshop. And then for lettering, that's where all the speech balloons come in and the narration balloons and thought bubbles. I used to do that in Photoshop, but I have to say anybody out there, it's way easier to do it in Adobe Illustrator. I know a lot of people who are in Clip Studio paid also use the vector, the vector tools that they have to get that done as well. So those are probably the biggest tools. And if you're on an iPad Pro, I know a lot of people also use Procreate. And I think those are probably, that's probably the top tier of all the applications that you'll be able to find on any of the platforms. That's awesome. It's really impressive what you guys can do. Just a quick question because we've got, it's about 424. We've got about six minutes until the official, pardon me. It's only 413. Oh, 413. Amazing. A computer clock that's incorrect. Wow. So we still have even more time. That's even great. So good. So we, oh good. So I just was wondering, you know, if you guys would be down for this, but we can keep on talking and asking questions that would you want to do like little one minute sketch battles or something? Like just do, I don't know, just do something on the fly like one or two minutes at a time. See what you can come up with. I wouldn't call it a battle. Do drawings for people who have recommendations in the audience? Sure. I would love to take requests. Sure. Why not? But I'm not in competition with my dear pal Don there besides. No, no, no. Just for the time frame. Just that's what I mean. Just like a little countdown. Like one or two minutes. You lose your draw. There you go. Perfect. Whatever you want to call it. All right. I just bamboozled me to draw this for you too, my lady, because I'm presuming you are a fan of this particular Amazonian. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have two fans in the room over here. Oh, there you go. They will have you two fight for that one. Awesome. I should ask them to make a Billie Jean King Wonder Woman fight. But I might reference to that. Yeah. Or if you want to draw your favorite superheroes, like one of the, you know, your favorite superheroes that you grew up with. I don't know if that's something that comic. One of my favorite superheroes. Awesome. Yeah, I don't know if, you know, do you guys start drawing your favorite superheroes initially? Is that kind of how, you know, some of your art developed in the beginning or did you just do your own sketching personally? Like whatever inspired you? Don, you want to start first or shall I? Yeah. I think for comics, you know, you're into comics and into cartoons. You gravitate towards what you consume the most, right? So growing up for me, that would have been Batman, Superman, Spiderman. I think if you're a kid out there, that that's probably what you go for. If that's what you're consuming, especially in this day and age with all the movies from Marvel and DC that are out. But also, you know, any cartoon characters that you love and, you know, there, I remember growing a library and there were how to draw cartoon characters. And the one that I would draw the most, which is funny because I actually have never read it, was The Phantom. For whatever reason, I just love the character design of The Phantom and, you know, the, from the mask to the purple hood, like that just stood out. And there was a how to draw like your favorite comic book characters. And that was one of the characters that I remember gravitating towards. And then, you know, the book that any, any comic book creator probably my age, a little bit older and a little bit younger, we'll swear by is how to draw comics in the Marvel way. And when you pick that book up, you go beginning to end trying to copy all the John, the Santa's stuff, all the Jack Kirby artwork in there and Sal the Santa and John Ramita. All those amazing guys that were in the Marvel bullpen back in the day, Gene Cullen. So, you know, I think you, you start by using whatever you consume by drawing whatever you consume visually and the world around you. And my family always tells me that I started drawing around too. And I was drawing houses and cars that were like in the front and things that I would observe and birds. So, you know, you basically, you just have to start somewhere. And if that's what you like, then that's what you go with. Someone just said phantom magic magician and draw Iron Man looking awesome. Yeah, you have requests already. So draw Iron Man looking awesome. Okay. I'm going to see the phantom. Oh, and I think ref. She made me do Iron Man. Um, what about the other way around? Yeah, we can do the other way around. I think Trisha had asked about, do any of us get into graphic novels? Well, actually Mike, your book kind of is at this point, because you guys have, was it five or six issues of guns of blazing? We have six issues. Yes. And it's a complete story. Um, and it will be collected, but as you know in publishing, that costs money. I mean, we even have an intro that my friend wrote for the beginning. It really sums it up about, because I'm starting that book in 2013, I think the last issue came out in 2019. Yeah. So, essentially it was a reflection of each issue. You can't help but be influenced by the outside world. And, you know, it's a very chaotic book. Let's put it that way. I mean, it's fun, because we tried to instill the, the spirits of Mike and Raf into it. Uh, but I was, I was in therapy. Funny story. Uh, I was, I was in therapy around the time issue four or five came out. And then my therapist asked to read it. And so I brought her a set and she's like, wow, this is just pure chaos. And she's like, I think it's a reflection of you. But anyway, um, you know, graphic novel, comic book, uh, you know, I think trade paperback, they're all different words for the same thing really. Um, ultimately I think my, my definition for a graphic novel would be something that comes out as one book that's like more than a, you know, a floppy comic, like they call watchman a graphic novel. And it's like, no girlfriend. That was a, that was a 12 issue series back in the 80s. You know, but graphic novel gives it, it's like, uh, it's a pretension. You know, you could call something grilled cheese and you could call something fromage, you know, uh, on toast, you know, on store is the stuff. I'm making stuff up, but ultimately it's the same thing, you know, the same sort of, uh, uh, rules apply. Uh, the difference for me between a comic book and a graphic novel is, uh, you know, you want to get people coming back for a comic book. You know, you want to read a cliffhanger or something that your readers can't wait to see what happens next and they might have to wait a month. In our case, they might have to wait a year. Uh, and, um, and a graphic novel is, is kind of one and done. You sit down and you read it. There's, you know, there's different, there's pluses and minuses to each. Um, the same with, you know, a lot of, a lot of people try to, you know, they try to get their movies made and that doesn't work out. And so then they want to turn it into a graphic novel because they see all these genuine comics and graphic novels getting adapted in the film. So just because you see that doesn't mean your screenplay has been rejected 18 times all around Hollywood. Turn it into a graphic novel. It works for Cowboys Nailings. It worked for Cowboys Nailings. You know, it, it's really two different mediums. And, uh, that's something I always try to, um, express to like potential clients that, that have approached me to edit their script into a comic book or a graphic novel. It's like, well, you know, a lot of the stuff, like if you, you guys all know Kevin Smith, right? And he's, he's great. That's a great screenwriter. Not everybody agrees with me, but he's really good at dialogue. And, and, you know, that dialogue is interpreted by actors. But when he writes a comic book, oh my God, like hopefully the artist will find a little place in the panel or page where he can draw the picture of who's talking. Kevin's a very verbose writer. And I, uh, I'm not so certain that he understands the craft of writing comic books. Just like I don't understand the craft of writing novels, you know, like, um, I, you know, I don't have the patience, you know, comics are, uh, they're really, for me, I mean, not, not every comic, but the kind of comics I write and the kind of comics I enjoy are the ones that are, you know, short attention span theater, you know? So I don't know if that answered the question. Yeah, I think, uh, you know, there are comics that are created to be graphic novels right on the bat. Like people will do 64 pages, 60 pages all the way up to 100, 200 pages. Uh, kind of a magnum opus style, uh, of doing a graphic novel. And what we're more familiar with in the comic book collecting community is you see story arcs that are collected into what they call trade paperbacks. Yeah. And then through time, because of how it's consumed, uh, you know, on that individual basis as a trade paperback, that then becomes a graphic novel, uh, specifically known that format. Like you were mentioning with the Watchman or View for Vandetta, both were limited series, and then both have, uh, lived on in that particular graphic novel format, because I think it endures a little bit better, uh, in the graphic novel format, uh, you know, because people can consume it all at once, whereas very serialized stories, uh, may not be seen that way. So, you know, you tend not to think of a lot of superhero stories in a graphic novel format like that. Um, you know, like, you think it's, uh, you think it's kind of more of a, like when you talk about like Watchman and View for Vandetta, Dark Knight Returns. Uh, you think it's more of a marketing term? Like, so like, when people see the movie trailer or whatever, like from the graphic novel, rather than from the comic book? I think, you know, there, there is a little bit of that, because, uh, you know, comics have always been seen in, in the fine art world as what you would call a low form of art. Um, which is funny because, you know, Jack Kirby, I believe, in 1999 got recognition in art form. Um, which is a fine art magazine, uh, that used to be around back in the day. And I, I always thought that was funny. You know, I'll say you see these really popular pop artists, if you will, such as Jack Kirby, or not a Norman Rockwell getting recognition for their work. Uh, whereas, you know, if you really think about art, art is truly subjective. Um, and a lot of the art theory that is, you know, what you read and consume in terms of the institution, that's, that's based on, you know, criticality that is simply assigned by a person, usually a white male, if you will. Uh, and that has really, uh, been assailed over the last few years. Um, you know, especially, you know, the Me Too movement and everybody, you know, wanting to break that glass and bring down the patriarchy. That, that, that was like a topic of discussion. And then you really do have to view things through a different lens. And, uh, you know, I feel like we now are in that day and age where we can do that and discuss things. But yeah, I feel like, you know, when the term graphic novels came about, it was because comics wanted to be taken a little bit more seriously in terms of a form of literature. And, you know, you see things like the Watchmen on the SAT list. Watchmen is chock full of fantastic vocabulary and prose. Uh, and it's only, it's only right. But yeah, to, to break that, that stereotype of a low form of art. Um, I think that's, that's what led to the term being coin. Yeah. I think Will Eisner was the first one to use it up, but I'd have, you guys have to fact check. Um, and I, you know, speaking to the Lowbrow, um, term of comic books like Stan Lee, Stan Lee, uh, you know, the great Stan Lee Marvel comics, he, he, his name was actually Stan Lee Lieber. Uh, but he was a little bit embarrassed at first to be a comic book writer because it was seen as Lowbrow. And, and, but he did want to be an author. So he went by the name Stan Lee. Yeah. Uh, because he wanted to save his real name, Stan Lee Lieber, for, uh, when he wrote the first great American novel. So, uh, you know, I mean, the, the, the perception of, of this medium has changed over the years. Um, I think that, uh, comic book shops and direct market has helped that as far as, um, you know, we, uh, back, I don't know, in the 80s, 70s, 60s, there was the comics code approval. So anything that came out, it was to be distributed on newsstands had to go through this committee. And there, there was a lot of things you couldn't put in comic books. Yeah. The comics code authority. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I said, right? Or did I call it something else? No, you're just seeing the group of the me, I was just saying the name specifically. Yeah. So, but then when direct market came along, then you started getting things like, uh, you know, like dark night and things like that where they didn't care. Actually, there were three issues of Spiderman back when newsstand distribution was happening before comic shops. It was 96, 97 and 98 were the issue numbers. Um, and his buddy was on drugs and yeah, it was the message was don't do drugs. It wasn't like, hey kids, you know, let's do drugs. It was, it was the anti drug thing, but the fact that there was drug use in it, this, the comics code authority, uh, declined it and Stanley said, no, we're going to put it out anyway. So, and I don't know what the distribution was. Yeah, there was no code on this. Oh, I just wanted to pop in because we've only got about two minutes left. You guys are doing an amazing job. No, no, this is great. Um, just in our last few minutes, I don't know if anybody had quick sketches. Yeah, hold that up close to the camera there so we can see that. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. There's your iron man. I got a fan. And then, um, so just maybe just 30 seconds each person. Um, what would you say is the best advice you've ever received in comics? Um, something that you could fast, you know, forward to everybody else to take away from today's talk. If they want to get started in this business. You want to be in comics? Make comics. That's really the long and the short of it. There's really nothing else to do, but to make them. Uh, I feel like, you know, for, for me, it was once again, Dustin Wynn just told me, Hey, do you have anything? And that was what got me, you know, the fire under my seat to get me to put work out there. So yeah, if don't be shy about it. If you, if you want to be here and you want to be doing this, uh, make work, show your work to people that you like, get feedback. I go to portfolio reviews still and I show people that are way better than me. My work and, uh, you know, I've had the honor of showing my work to ours, like Steve Epstein or Brian Stelfrie's or Raphael for example, if you can track it down over there at atomic basement and show it to editors, you know, um, like Barbara Kiesel, who's an amazing editor, friend of the shop, uh, and, and Mike's friend, like I've shown her my work and you know, it's, that's what it takes for you to get to the next level if that's, that's what you want to be doing if you want to be working in an editorial style of, you know, a DC or a Marvel. Um, it's just, you know, to get your work out there, put your work out there, share it on social media. Um, yeah, I can't, I can't emphasize that enough because I feel like that's, that's what we're doing here is, you know, we're just putting out work. Someone said Zatanna, so I'm trying to hammer out a quick Zatanna. Nice. You've got phantom happening over here. Yeah, I don't have my sincere apologies buddy, I didn't see you were actually drawing an Iron Man there, so I was like, oh, that's all right. No, it's all good. It's just different variations. All excellent. Listen, um, so we've got about one minute left and I just want to take this opportunity to say that if, uh, if people have more questions or interested in, you know, comic manga, comic garden artists, other topics along these lines, uh, we definitely have lots of resources in our library collection. We have a huge manga collection. Um, so please check out our online catalog on our website or drop on by the library here at, uh, Billie Jean King main library or at any of our 11 branch libraries. That would be wonderful. We'd love to see you. Um, and are you open to the public now? Pardon me? Are you open to the public? Oh, we are. All of our locations are open. Oh, great. Okay. Yeah, except for Al and Nito, such as still, uh, undergoing some renovations, but all of our other branches are open in our main library. Um, and if you guys have any further questions in the chat or anything that you'd like to reach out and inquire with, uh, with our guest panelists today or Mike, our moderator, um, feel free to include your questions in the chat or just whatever you'd like. Oh, there we go. It's another. Oh, that's great. Just include any comments in the chat that you'd like to add and we will, uh, get those forwarded along for Christy too. She's not here, but we'll forward any of that information along and then, um, I will be sending out, uh, link, uh, via email and probably within the next week and I will include actually everybody's contact information here, their website, Instagram accounts, Facebook, what have you are having just a little bit of technical difficulties on this end. So I can't show you that final slide that I wanted to show you with everybody contact info, but it's 430 now, so we're going to need to conclude our program and, oh, I love that. Thank you, Dawn, so much. But I want to thank all of you and Mike Wellman and our talented comments with artists and writers for joining us today for sharing your time and your generous talent with our, um, providing educational enrichment for our Long Beach Public Library community and many thanks to our library administration, our staff, um, Friends of the Library, our foundation, and many other local contacts for helping to promote this event. And then finally, we really want to thank all of you, our wonderful guests for joining us today for this Artist Workshop Series program. We do it for you. So our sincerest thanks and appreciation to everyone. Have a wonderful evening. Everybody stay safe and healthy and we look forward to seeing you again soon with more upcoming programs for the Miller Room and the Long Beach Public Library. Thanks so much again, everybody. And did you guys have anything you wanted to add? So I want to say thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. And yeah, amazing library. Go check it out. Lots of great comic books and graphic novels. It's awesome. So what do you say? Thank you, Angela. Don't don't forget to stop by Atomic Comics Bookstores just down the street. Atomic Basin Comics, I'm sorry. Yeah, make it to heaven. Yeah, just down the street from us. Great partnership. Thank you guys so much for having us today and sharing your incredible talent with all of our audience. We're so pleased to have you. Everybody have a wonderful evening. Thanks again. We'll see you soon. Anytime. Bye.