 Good evening, I'm going to call today's special meeting of the DRB of order, today's special meeting is dedicated to CP 22576, 25th Street, an application by the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception Charitable Trust to demolish existing church building, build our parking lot and impervious pathways and fill site with grading and seating. We heard this application, we opened the hearing on December 20th, 2022 and took in testimony and evidence from the applicant. We convened this special meeting to give the members of the public an opportunity to be heard. And so we convened this special meeting with the specific intent to give the members of the public the opportunity to be heard on this application. There's quite a bit of public interest. We've received more communications than I think I've seen in my 10 years of being on the DRB and I think we all appreciate that. We understand the public engagement is an important part of this process. I do also note that that volume is substantial and this DRB has looked at it, has considered it, it is in the record. The emails are in the record, we have and will read them. And I say that because please, and I stress this with an underline, do not get up here and read an email that you sent to us, okay? If you feel that you have something else to add or want to add, we are giving any member of the public two minutes to speak. There are many people. We hope we made that clear and we are welcoming anybody to submit additional written evidence. We were welcoming everybody to submit additional written evidence. There's probably a sign-in sheet somewhere here. I would recommend that if you are a member of the public and you are here that you sign the sheet, put your address so you can be notified of any decision that we reach in this case. What else do I want to add? We will be giving each member of the public two minutes. Scott is going to be keeping a timer. What did you say? And our intent is to end this at 6.30. We understand that people have a lot to say. We very much appreciate the feedback. And so with that, I suppose we'll open the floor for public comment. Who wants to go first? Oh, I have to give an oath to everybody. We're going to do it that way. I'm going to do it all at once. Mary noted the folks in the lobby. And I said they don't have to do it in the lobby. There's a lot of streaming, so we'll trust that they're participating. All those people who want to speak tonight on this agenda item, please raise their right hand. That includes people in the hall. Do you swear or affirm that the evidence you give in this cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? All right, great. With that, I suppose we'll open the floor for public comments and testimony. Who wants to go first? Could you define the issue? The Catholic diocese is trying to knock down their own church? The Cathedral for the Immaculate Conception Charitable Trust has filed an application for the removal of the church at 20 Pine Street. So the charitable trust is the Catholic Church, or did that transfer to somebody else from the Catholic Church? That is not within our purview to decide that is the applicant we have in front of us. Front and center, go for it. Well, actually, can I ask one more thing? The houses around that corner that are joining the Catholic property, I bought those houses and I donated them to the Catholic Church and I wanted to know if the Catholic Church is trying to demolish their own church, they should demolish those houses too, because the Erlington Hoota was perpetrating eviscration in those houses and that's why I bought them to kick them off the property. And I'll just say one more thing. I don't think it's a safe place to go to church anymore. So I would agree that if the Catholic Church wants to knock it down, I'd help them to build a new one somewhere else. Thank you. Thank you. Sir? So there's a sign-in sheet there at the table. So it's important that we get your name and contact info, so you receive notice of the board decisions. All right, thank you. My name is Andy Simon. I live on Locust Street in Burlington. First, I would just like to point out that holding this meeting without a remote option in a room that's specifically equipped to do that, sends a message. I don't think the mic is on. This is a mic for recording. I'll try to speak up. I was just saying that being in this room, but without offering a remote option seems to send a message, whether it's accurate or not, that you're trying to limit public comment. And I just wanted to note that. Despite the fact that we specifically held open a public meeting. I understand that. I understand that. And I don't want to have a discussion about it. Two minutes. Okay. I'm here like many others to support the preservation and reuse of the cathedral and its Kiley Design Garden. To that end, I want to read a brief innovative suggestion for adaptive reuse by Burlington architect Louis Manny Leone, who was unable to attend in person this evening. The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception can be adapted to continue to serve our community as the site of a municipal department of the environment with a paid director and staff and a commission to deal comprehensively with the impacts of global warming, environmental degradation, and the need for environmental justice at the local level. There must be both federal and state monies for this under recent legislation and there could be a joint participation with the Department of Natural Resources at the University of Vermont. The space is perfect. Offices for the day-to-day work and a large space for congregating citizen participation and public environmental education. Thank you. Who can you, sir? Sir, I have a question for you. The letter that you read, has that been submitted to us? No. Is it possible for you to submit it during the course of this meeting or have the individual staff? We'll make a copy of it. Thank you. Found me deaf and I have a device. If I point it at the speaker, I can hear them and I would like to request the chair's permission to possibly just sit on the floor in front of a couple of speakers. You're more than welcome to move you chair wherever you need to to hear. Yeah, of course. We'll front to back. Front to back and I'll clear it out a little bit. I'm Timothy Parker and you have the letter already so I won't recapitulate that. I'm an associate professor in the School of Architecture and Art at Norwich. I'm an architectural historian primarily whose main area of research is modern religious architecture. I'm here really to just emphasize one fact of the situation as I see it. I would not dare to second guess what the institution of the Roman Catholic Church here and the congregation who had made their life in the former cathedral of the Immaculate Conception wants to do, thinks is appropriate for them in the process of deconsecration. But I do think that the groundswell as it has emerged here of opposition is a sign that if we need any other evidence sacredness or sacred space or the value of places that we build in the world is not limited to any individual group or organization as they define it for themselves. Otherwise said this place in the city of Burlington has clearly taken on a specialness that many scholars of religion would label sacred aside from particular religious definitions. And I think it leaves us with a responsibility I would urge the board not to grant the demolition permit not as any definitive statement against the Catholic Church but instead simply as a way to create a space for what should be a kind of collaboration effort, what form it might take, adaptive reuse, public-private cooperation. I'm not sure but the very narrow limited nature of the request we're not going to say what we might do in the future. We simply want to demolish it. I think it's incumbent upon us as a community to recognize that it has accrued a certain kind of value. We should move forward with that in mind. Thank you. Yeah, just go down the line. Easy. Thank you very much. My name is Devin Coleman. I'm a resident of Burlington and serve on the board of preservation Burlington. You've obviously been presented with overwhelming evidence of the public support and interest in this property but I think it's really important to acknowledge what's really going on here, which is that an unnamed developer who hasn't revealed any development plans is doing this as an end run around our zoning ordinance using the applicant as a partner. The ordinance tries to balance the preservation of significant features against other competing interests. State law seeks to protect religious uses but there is no religious use here. The building is not being used as a church, has not been used as such for four years. The altar has been removed. There's no altar in this building. They cannot hold mass there. Other interior features are for sale at local salvage shops. The applicant acknowledges they have it under contract for sale but they won't say to whom or for what purpose. This is what we need to know. A year ago the city rejected an identical application on these very grounds. What's changed? Neither the local zoning ordinance nor state law 4413 contemplate ownership as the trigger. 4413 is only triggered by potential interference with the intended functional use of the property. There is no religious use taking place here and there will not be because the applicant is trying to sell and demolish it. We understand that some staff believe that state law precludes zoning review. We disagree but that's a question for the courts. We shouldn't lose the building in the meantime. We've all suffered from the consequences of the pit across the street which was ushered through the permitting process with no assurance of its viability and we see how that has turned out. Let's not make the same mistake here where the fate of a historically significant property hangs in the balance. Thank you. A couple questions. One, you referenced an identical application that was rejected. Yes. That was in December of 2020, I believe. It was this property for demo AJ but he wasn't rejected. He was withdrawn by the applicant. There was no action on it. And you say there's no altar currently. Deconsecrated, do you know when that was? The photos I have when I was last in the building I believe in 2019, there is no altar. Thank you. My name is Jay White. I'm an architect in Burlington and I wrote out a letter that I'm reading because I had to make sure it's going to be under two minutes and otherwise I couldn't do that but I do have copies of it for you that I can leave with you. You're welcome since you haven't submitted it already. I'll be fast. Burlington must not allow demolition of this important landmark building and site and we can legally do so. I have specialized in the adaptive reuse of buildings as an architect since 1974. This building can easily be adapted for many uses, some at far less cost than demolition and removal. One of the most likely adaptive use now comes with adequate funding not available until this year due to the millions of dollars in the current state budget to support affordable housing. This site can easily support small new apartments in the rectangular parts of the building west of the beautiful sanctuary. The sanctuary itself has a large open space and it's easily adaptable to multitude of uses including meals, homeless services, and meeting space. A new building can be built in the current parking lot east of the church. This part of the site can provide parking on the ground level and several stories of affordable apartments or high-end condominiums above it. Depending on how it is funded all of this can be done without any demolition. This could be a win-win situation. I am a member of the Burlington Design Advisory Board at the same meeting that we unanimously voted to deny the permit for demolition. We asked that the city attorney clarify in writing the debated issue about why we think that the applicant's statement that the city has no jurisdiction is false. As of yesterday I was told that she has not done that. Therefore this board should allow the logical interpretation presented in the dozens of letters and emails sent in and from around the country requesting that you deny this application for demolition. Vermont Statutes, Title 24, Paragraph 4413 allows the city's zoning regulations to be applied, quote, to the extent that regulation do not have the effect of interfering with the intended functional use as churches and other places of worship, convents and parish houses. The application letter from Monsignor Vossier contends that the goal of the demolition is to, quote, remove the cathedral and take the property out of liturgical use. How? Therefore the intended functional use is not church-related and the exemption for the religious functions does not apply since no religious functions are intended. Without that exemption, an applicant for demolition needs to prove that the new building to replace this one will be better value to the community. The applicant and everyone else, including the secret developers, they say they have a contract by the property if the building is gone, knows that they cannot meet the standard. Protections for religious functions are designed to avoid the discrimination and unfair regulation not to allow religious landowner to circumvent our zoning and planning regulations in order to close or resale for the real estate. Thank you. I do have 10 copies right here. You just need one for that. What? I'm Marjorie Allard. I'm Marjorie. I was a parishioner whenever I lived in Burlington from the late 1940s until a short time before the church was deconsecrated, which it has been done. It would make more sense to me to have a place for the growing residential population of this area to enjoy. And besides the worship area, it has a kitchen and large meeting room in the basement and there is some space including an office above the main floor. And that's the side of the aesthetic value of the building and its surroundings now. That's what I wanted to say tonight. Thank you. Good afternoon, members of DAB. I appreciate the opportunity to offer the comments on preservation and adaptive reuse. Excuse me? I will. That's right there. Yeah, I might get to that, sir. But anyway, thank you for the opportunity. My name is Scott Newman. I am my wife and three daughters live on Ward Street in the Old North End, less than a mile from the cathedral. I'm also a 30-year stored preservation professional, 15 years as preservation officer for V-Trans and 15 years consulting. First I want to acknowledge the startling amount of regional and national attention behind advocacy for saving this downtown property. Sometimes it takes the viewpoints of people looking in for us to understand the value of what's in our own communities. Unlike most of Burlington's downtown buildings, the cathedral was built for devotion, not for profit. Rising from a tragic arson that destroyed the Gothic-style predecessor in 1972, this cathedral testifies to Burlington's collective faith and optimism for the future. Let's not swing a wrecking ball into that optimism. If Burlington needs optimism, it needs it now. In my tenure as preservation officer for V-Trans, I managed over 2,000 reviews. Among them was the Downtown Transit Center, and I can tell you in negotiating, excuse me, I can tell you that project stakeholders, municipal, state, and federal, were diligent in negotiating a design and site plan that respected the Den, Kiley Landscape, and Barnes Design Cathedral, both determined eligible for the National Register of Historic Places at that time. It's hard to imagine only a few years later, we're here discussing whether or not this landmark should be torn down, and for what. On a personal level, the cathedral is an important part of my family experiences downtown. The serenity of this place, that it was built for fellowship and solemnity, adds an intangible place of peace and respite for residents and visitors. My family strongly opposes demolition of this Burlington landmark. Thank you. Just a reminder for folks to use the sign-in sheet so we have your contact info. My name is John Mahoney, and I would first like to thank you all for serving on this city commission. I grew up in the Cathedral Parish in Burlington, and I have vivid memories of the night the old church burned down as I joined other volunteers and moved church records from the rectory's vault into the aisles at Idol's Market around the corner on Pearl Street. I was married in the now closed church in 1987. The suggestion that the church building needs to be torn down so that I won't suffer emotional hurt, I find specious. Indeed, the emotional hurt will occur when the church is torn down. I think that the former church could and would be a tremendous venue as a place for lectures, concerts, or as a practice space for performing arts groups. Does Champlain College need a venue for large gatherings? Could this be an in-town incubator space for artists or small businesses? Additionally, the former cathedral has thousands of square feet, a very usable space below ground level that many may not even know exists. Recently, the Methodist congregation in Ferrisburg gave their church to the town and discussions are beginning about possible uses for the building, including a possible daycare. I suspect that the former congregants would be proud to drive by their former church and know that it was being put to good use. What is particularly telling for me in a sad way is that there has not been a groundswell of creative thinking outside the box ideas from the greater community for the past few years that would be dedicated to saving this special place and repurposing it. Unfortunately, I think that this may be a reflection of this church in particular and perhaps the Catholic Church in general. Over its history, the outside world was not invited or welcomed in. That insularity ensured that the greater community would not know and does not know what a unique gem this church building was and is. While the church community continues to do many great things, their insularity has ensured that they will become more and more anachronistic and less relevant for many people. It would have been more transparent if the church had simply acknowledged long ago that they weren't interested in creative ideas about the continued life of this space. The only consideration seems to be the bottom line. Hello. My name is Selena Barton. I am a real estate broker and I brought a qualified buyer to the property before the property went under contract. We were denied access and the opportunity to work with a seller and I am here today to speak on behalf of qualified community-oriented buyers willing to work with a seller and the city on adaptive reuse of the Burlington Cathedral. I have reached out and my colleagues are active Catholics and I come in kindness, I come in community and we want to work with the church. We really want to find another use for the building and I have been trying to, through the appropriate channels, get an audience to be able to deliver this incredibly generous offer and this community of buyers that's actually building now that wants to work with the church. If we could, please, be able to work with you on another vision, not a demolition, which... I want to come in kindness, I want to come in friendship, but I have to say they also come with friends that have had a very difficult history and they understand, as documented in this best seller and other books, right now the Catholic Church is in a very difficult position and one of the best things we feel could be done is to reach out and work with the community on building a wonderful future generation solution. So I come as a real estate professional, I've seen the value of historic properties, I understand how to sell lifestyle and I understand how historic properties bring not only a sense of place and character to communities, but they also serve as economic engines drawing visitors and businesses to the area and that is why I'm deeply, deeply concerned about the proposed demolition of this architecturally and significant property and even more upsetting, one last is my colleague who is a Catholic called and was interested in the property and was told not to make any noise and that we would not have any audience so there are other buyers out there I just want to I appreciate that, thank you but I want to remind everybody to direct your comments to the DRB and I'm not involved in that and can't really do anything about that there may or may not be not within our purview please make sure to direct your comments to the DRB I can understand your position but as we go through this back and forth between a witness and the applicant can get problematic so please comments to the chair next in line anybody else in this yep excuse my ray gone, I assure you it's perfectly harmless my name is Eric Esselston I live in Plainfield 60 years ago I worked in downtown Boston and at lunch hour there was nothing more fun in the summer months to have a picnic lunch on one of the in the garden or the green I would get off my MTA stop early so I could walk into the Boston area the buildings of the Boston area through the green the name Barnes and Kiley will disappear if they aren't all in any pretty faint in the memories of the world but I can tell you that those gardens in Boston were over a century old when I enjoyed them for picnics I don't get to Burlington very often but in the summer months to lift my heart I go and watch kids in the fountain in the city park behind this the city hall and the ice cream vendors and the parents and the little kids running around and I also have walked some of the other streets on business that I've needed to do and Burlington has a share of multi-storey ghettos and to the extent that the vision that created that incredible park behind city hall or the vision that created the garden or the green I lived out in Brookline Homestead's century old park that I had to walk through to get to the MTA I just hope that all of you I know all the different parties can look with vision and generosity at what you can leave the future generations it's not a matter of money, it's not a matter of profit urban land is priceless you've got transit you've got sewer, you've got water it's gold what do you want to really do with it thank you very much anybody else in this room would like to make a public comment? no? okay tell us who you are my name is Selina Barton as well I'm a former student of the University of Vermont I was there for a year in the fall of 2020 before I transferred to St. Andrews in Scotland and something that I've noticed and something that I feel as a student and a young person Burlington is a beautiful place it has an incredible campus, something that's completely unmatched I now attend a school that is very focused on its history and cares about that people in this room obviously know much more about this church but I've seen it and I remember walking by and it is a beautiful space and I do care about architecture but I think that right now more than ever it's really important to connect and find a place to do that there's a lot of students at UVM and a lot of people here they really care about creating that kind of community and I think that there's so much more that we can do we have spaces like that at St. Andrews and it's really wonderful because it is very much like a college town type of feel and I think when you bring the students we have so many colleges in this area coming together to think and create something new I'm sorry I have a hard time speaking in front of people is a really beautiful thing and I think post-pandemic that is really important especially for Vermont for Burlington and for everybody and I think that that will drive more people together and I think that that's a way to move forward and I think we should look into other options and bring new life into an area that seems kind of dark over there at the moment and that would be really positive and so I hope that people can consider that as well thank you I guess we're up to people in the hall anybody else in this room you can't make me laugh thank you for letting me get a little closer that's alright sir, floor is yours good evening I'm Colin Lindberg an architect in town I would like to propose a slight difference in the approach I was about 50 years ago hired by the parish to seek out the architect for the new cathedral the Paris did select Barnes from New York Ed came up and worked with the parish developed the building brought Dan Kiley to add the bushes the wonderful forest and I'd like to speak to the parish as well as the city you representing by the Development Review Board I think there are issues here the parish has provided this park for the last 40 years for public use it's been wonderful we should thank them the city has an obligation to develop open space developers do not developers are bound to produce buildings and costs I think that we have a wonderful opportunity here with the city to work with the parish to make the project slightly differently the ability for the city to take this as a project I think is absolutely critical our forefathers in city hall would not have thought of putting tax base to the west we have the opportunity now to have trust and faith to work with the parish to rethink and the city really should take all the smart people in the city who work well for the city to take over the project find the money for the parish that they want and see if you can make this work thank you very much so much has already been said tell us who you are took a lot of the wind out of my sails I'm Ron Wanamaker I'm a member of the design advisory board also a member of preservation in Burlington I've recused myself from this project on the board and I just a couple of points that weren't made I know that the parish or the diocese reached out to preservation Burlington with individual letters to try to encourage us to see their point of view and we immediately reached back and offered to sit down and have a conversation and there was no return so there's been a one-sided communication from that point of view and again without reiterating what so many other people said I believe that green space the historic building and the historic landscape but green space in downtown Burlington is such a huge and important part of what our community needs and cities all over the country are grappling with creating it or finding more and there's an opportunity for this parcel to remain the beautiful green space that it is and to lend itself to the community and like has been mentioned before with the applicants there hasn't been much back and forth again there's no plan in place and there's nothing in Burlington that can be demolished without a plan for what is going to take its place and we're being asked to just grant you know the approval for this to be demolished without knowing what might happen and again it's been mentioned a block or so away is the pit and we've seen what happens there demolition and sits in languages so I think short of a lot more information and other proof that this project meets the goals of the loss that it is in the historic building and the historic landscape and benefit to the community it hasn't been shown and I think you know anyway everybody else has already said whether it's a church or not I just wanted to reiterate that stuff thank you thank you very much Hi my name is David Mount I live in Ward 6 I'm on the Burlington Pension Board as well as being a member of Ward 6 about three weeks ago I took my wife to Portsmouth, New Hampshire and I always compared Portsmouth and Burlington they were very similar cities and you know what I didn't see in Portsmouth I didn't see any graffiti I didn't see any people lingering in the city and why is that it's because we have allowed that to happen and we've allowed it to happen because we keep repurposing buildings we repurpose Memorial Auditorium we repurpose the old YMCA and take a look at it it's not useful I went to church that week I came back and I saw a huge graffiti graffiti marker on the side of the cathedral the cathedral needs to go we have built fences around the park behind the cathedral to stop drug dealing and other nefarious activities if the cathedral doesn't come down those activities are going to continue to happen in the park behind the cathedral just like they do in City Hall Park the cathedral has to go thank you good evening my name is Sharon Busher and I'll take my mask down good evening my name is Sharon Busher and I'm a resident in Burlington and I was a parishioner at the cathedral I'm here tonight because I feel strongly that this building should not be demolished as a parishioner I would reference the statement about healing there was no healing when the old cathedral burned down and it was gone I don't believe for me and I can only speak for myself that having the demolition of this building will help the healing process as a Catholic practicing Catholic I know about Catholic charities and their mission of caring for other people and I see the readaptive use of this building being paramount in that mission there are so many purposes that were stated earlier I was out in the hallway there listening about what could be done I'm not proposing what can be done I just don't believe that we should destroy this building we are in a different point in life we have limited resources we have a structure that isn't need to be demolished by neglect it is a sound structure it needs to be retained and needs to be used for another purpose one that is consistent and has the blessing of the Catholic church if that can happen but it should not be demolished and I also feel very strongly about the pristine plot and the plantings, the trees the whole section is a place where people can find peace and I don't see that that would disappear with this building not being a church it could be used for the owners or it could be used for the public I want to just cite that I don't believe in Europe if a cathedral is no longer used that they tear down a historic cathedral I'm sure they repurpose it so I feel that we can look outside of ourselves and for our determination and hopefully you will reach out even beyond the city attorneys to get some legal guidance about what we can and can't do regarding action on the demolition of this property thank you evening, my name is Jack Mentis M-E-N-T-E-S I live on South Willard Street I've been a resident in Burlington over 25 years and I'm not here to cite like articles and sections of this, ordinances and you know, the number before or letter and a dot after that's all important but I'm sure you people looked at all that stuff I'm here with just some impassioned thoughts I've had today and I pardon my acid reflux but sometimes my voice isn't as clear however these are impassioned thoughts that I've had today and I jotted them down so I'll start with this in a town or city there is a fine balance between aesthetics and smart development there's also a fine balance between needed housing and the placement of that housing no, I am not a town or city planner I am merely an old man that has always appreciated the beauty of urban scenery wherever I traveled take Charleston, South Carolina we're building protection ordinances have been in effect there since the 1940s ask people that have been there why they enjoy visiting the city most likely it is much too late to ask those city planners that made those decisions why they felt the aforementioned balance was so important this former church is not the proper place to destroy and rebuild in any fashion there is too much to lose and much more to gain by simply repurposing the usage there is a myriad of alternative applications we've heard it tonight I'll be redundant probably community centers, social treatment facilities small business startup programs year around local farmers markets I hope my menial input here tonight the board will give it some consideration and I'm thanking you in advance for making the correct choice and spare the destruction of a tangible piece of history thank you for your feedback hello Michael Wiesniewski from Duncan Wiesniewski architecture I won't repeat a lot of the great things that people have said I will just say that in November for my 70th birthday my partner and I decided to go someplace we've never been before, New Orleans and we stayed at the hotel Peter and Paul and this was an old church and a series of outbuildings like the convent and the school it had been abandoned for 16 years and sat empty and came in and made it a community center and hotel it's very successful the neighborhood has welcomed it because it preserved a huge part of the fabric and for the three nights that we were there we saw a psychedelic fundraising concert a funeral and a wedding where everybody was dressed in black and so without talking about the wonders of this church and how important it is to keep that redevelopment can really form our neighborhood and our community and make a really valuable and viable space is a very critical thing thank you anybody else from the lobby how many are out there he said that's it well we appreciate all the public comment I think we'll give the applicant an opportunity to respond if they choose are you clear suggestive reasons ignore me so the applicant is more than welcome to come and respond directly I think maybe the board has some additional follow-up questions for the applicant so taking whenever order you want if you have specific responses John or Jim or Monsignor by all means go ahead thank you thank you to all of the speakers this evening one of the great really okay how's that okay one of the great things about living in Burlington is how passionate and how vigilant we all are about our community we all regardless of the topic City Hall Park Champlain Parkway cultural issues tonight is no different and so that's a really good thing but I think that we need to temper the passion with an appreciation and a respect for rule of law I was really happy to read the staff report that goes with this that goes with this application it in very concisely it pointed out the logic of the recommendation to approve the application it confirmed that the use is a place of worship that's how it was permitted to change the use application since then and it's always been in compliance so in the closed world the closed universe of zoning administration it's a place of worship it doesn't matter that mass hasn't been celebrated there in several years so that's the first point that was made the second point was made generally taught let's call it that the state enabling legislation 24VSA chapter 117 section 4413 it severely limits the state and all of the municipalities cities and towns throughout the state from interfering for getting in the business of a religious that's fundamental and that applies every zoning district in every town in our state including the form based code district in downtown burlington and the third thing that the staff report does is that it says that because of 4413 section 5.4.8 which is the section that deals with historic preservation it just doesn't apply now given what we're talking about I get it this is all about historic preservation but the clarity that you have around 4413 and the freedom of religion that it really embodies is in stark contrast with what we know about the historic preservation there's no doubt that Dan Kiley their reputations are beyond debate but the actual property the 20 pine street property here's what we know that it doesn't meet the city ordinance definition for historic being historic it's not 50 years old and that's a pretty plain language as Scott or as the staff report also notes it's not on any federal or state registry and thirdly is that while there is a process for properties that are less than 50 years old that it's really to me it's unclear whether the department of the interior national park service which has jurisdiction whether or not they've done all everything that is required or accepted in application as far as I know there wasn't even an application submitted there was something called a consensus DOE determination of eligibility that that was all in connection with the transit center in 2014 but it's so at best it's inconclusive at worst it's hua but guess what because of 4413 it's off the table it's not to be discussed now I never would have thought I'd put this all together but you know over the last few weeks I've been thinking a lot about the events and the lessons of January 6th now we've got this passionate community that's got incredible passion and about this topic but they haven't really backed it up with the evidence and that's where the appreciation of rule of law comes in we don't have to comprehend and understand the church but this is a sacred space and through 4413 the state has indicated they're not going to get in the middle how how a church disposes of its property or how it chooses to do so this is the church's decision in the church's decision only we may not agree with it we may not understand it but I think we have to respect it and I mean in that sense I think it really makes your job your job is really to sort of apply the laws and in doing so separate the symphony from the noise what 4413 provides the symphony the rest of it is just noise do you have any questions I do maybe Jim will answer this too but how does the in your view the 2019 D consecration affect this consideration of 4413 Jim Langen Jim Langen for the applicant I mean I think there are different ways to desanctify a space and there was my understanding is there was a ceremony held I'll take your word that it was 2019 that's what I thought I heard but that's one of the ways the idea that this is a the fact that this is a cathedral space that this is at such a level of sacredness for the parish that their decision which was not made lightly and was not made quickly was that the best thing for the parish community and not everyone in the parish community would know is going to agree on a decision forward but the parish made the decision to demolish the church and that in canon law is one of the ways to it's the ultimate way of making sure that a space can't be reused in a way that the church wouldn't want it to be used in and especially for a cathedral that is important to the parish and it's the parish's decision to make here so there may have been a ceremony prior to this to seek out comfort that doesn't mean that it is no longer a sacred space right now for the parish I just we've heard a lot of testimony in letters and emails and everything else we have had no parishioner I think come forward and say that they need to have this church the physical building removed I'm wondering what you know what prompts people to say that that's really what's necessary I guess I'd like to a little bit more understanding of that what prompts the decision from the parish I mean I guess it's not a it's a crux of the issue that you've presented to us is that that's the reason to take it down I think the Monsignor letters in the record also spoke on December 20th to that we haven't taken this as a the public comments as a as a vote that to have parishioners advocate for this right well we have had spoken and have been public comments in favor of this certainly okay so I I think the parish has addressed that in the record and at the meeting on the 20th I have a question so once the church is demolished, if it is demolished what's the intended functional use for the church for that property I believe you're referencing the language of 4413 right and I just want to also to clarify that I don't see as broad as how you're interpreting it well I think just to be clear as to what the exemption is what the language of 4413 means so I know what the language means what's the intended functional use of the church for the record I just want to not necessarily to explain to you but for how it was stated before that their 44 the language of intended functional use that's in 4413 is a carve out 4413 says city you're not allowed to regulate these certain uses including a church use except for a few delineated categories and those delineated categories are then limited saying okay city you can you can regulate those certain categories like location but only to the extent that that regulation of location doesn't interfere with the intended functional use is the language there we can regulate height right that's in the list I believe it is I think height is in the list and taking it to the ground would be height so you could regulate anything on that list except to the extent that it doesn't except to the extent that we don't interfere with the intended functional use right and so the intent here of this action right is to raise the building so that it can no longer be used so that it couldn't be used for a non pious purpose right so I think I think where Brooks is getting at and sort of my question too is okay what is the intended functional use of this parcel which we're being told is still a church well so the permitted use which hasn't changed and won't change even after this action is as a church so that's one answer and the other answer would be this action itself so to deny the demolition permit would be to deny this action of deconsecration yeah but I think maybe and I think we're just trying to explore this the functional use to me means what's going to happen once the building is down that's what that sentence seems to intend to use functional intended means forward looking functional means how and functional use combined as clause seems to me how it's going to be used on day two after the building is gone and I think that's what Brooks's question was was what is what is there what is the intended functional use of the property once this is occurring well to deny the permit would would prevent that and the functional use would be to deconsecrate it so you'd be preventing that already consecrated right there are different ways to deconsecrate and they're different there's not just one it's not choose one action which does it is it possible to deconsecrate something that is not a church I'm not sure I know the answer to that I think I have a very loud voice can you hear me therefore when we close a church there's a ceremony to close it down and that is what happened services still continued in a private manner by my predecessor I've only been here a year a little over a year but up to that time they were doing monthly services with either a loan or with a server so forth to respect that when we speak of deconsecration it means that all of the religious articles and they're not all gone are removed it will not be used in any other religious manner or something that would be sorted so the first step that was done is that when it was closed you do the appropriate ceremony that's involved and you bring that as we bring the sacrament to the other cathedral and what I was not here when this happened but that's what we would do so when we say deconsecrating it means that it really no longer exists for what function did that have but we do say mass on the outside when I was here before we would process there and do services in the grove in our Corpus Christi you sometimes went in the church but sometimes you did it outside so I'm sure what we would do is at least do some type of public service there in the process of what will become of property but I'm not sure I answered the question you really asked did I miss something there I'm sorry he said can anything else be consecrated well only something that was consecrated I don't know about other buildings but for us it's a church that is consecrated I was thinking I'd miss something and a consecration takes place when you literally smear oil on the wall in cathedrals and parishes we'll have crosses on the wall which have had oil placed upon them so that's the consecration when you close the church down those candles that usually are with them are removed because it is no longer going to be used so if you went to St. Joseph's we have the consecatory process I'm not sure what most churches are not that formally consecrated because they're old and if you want the history to a consecrated church you have to have paid for it completely most churches started functioning before they were paid for it they had debts and to do them but a cathedral always had to be consecrated do you hold mass or to be consecrated what hold mass it gets consecrated when you're holding mass so there are different elements of that the first time you say a mass and you bless the altar and so forth you are consecrating the space we shouldn't get caught in the weeds here every church is a consecrated and holy space but a cathedral has a different dimension it's not just an ordinary parish and that is really the other reason to reuse it it would be very problematic very problematic especially if it was an art venue because the art world the place that can be put on the things that would be said would be so adhorrent to catholic faith and tradition that it would be appalling and you have to admit if you're hoping having a public space you'd have to allow anything to take place in it do I need to say more on that that is the main reason part of the discussion with our parishioners in regards to the space is that you just cannot have sorted events taking place where the celebration of the Eucharist was so central to that community and to that faith I'm sorry I hope you don't mind but I need to stand up because my arm is killing me and I just have to give it a different position um I have a question for Jim so one of the things the 4413 if applicable if not applicable limits our regulatory authority to considering certain delineated aspects of a project many people have argued that it's important here for various different reasons but fundamentally it seems that people are arguing it's important because it then triggers a historical review and if I'm remembering your legal memo correctly it says well comma even if 4413 did apply this isn't a historic building right per the language of the plain language zoning regulations not 50 years old so it's not for purposes of burlington zoning regulations for interpreting those it's not eligible for historic listing and so that list is pretty clear even if 4413 applied didn't apply it's still not a historic building we're still not going through the historic demolition standards right section 548 my position is that 548 would not apply regardless even if 4413 was not applicable 76 zoning permit 76 I think and it was built just after consecrated in 77 and just add the full context I think staff and others have noted that there is criteria consideration G which is for buildings under 50 years whether that applies is another question but there was that from the secretary interior correct well that right there are federal regulations about eligibility which Burlington zoning regulations did not include when they wrote the regulations to explain what would be eligible for Burlington zoning purposes it did not include that level and I can verify the date because in 1978 I was the first one to be ordained in that Cathedral of the Macca conception this June I will be a priest 45 years I was and therefore I would have strong memories of that building what was the church first put up for sale I don't know the date I was not here at that point about 2018 or 2019 I was thinking it was later than that okay okay was it the intention I assume then of the church to sell the organization to sell the building at that time to another party I guess was their consultation with any intended buyers about the intended future use of the space I'm not familiar with it was put up for sale it was not a part of any conversations about with any potential buyers that's sort of outside the purview of a demolition application I ask sort of Brooks question things may be outside the purview of where we end up but we try to take a path around everything to make sure we end up in the right place so the idea of what will happen to this property once the building is torn down and once it's gone from what I'm hearing that's of no concern to the applicant at this time that is correct and there's no intention for anything to happen there at this time that's what the Monsignor just indicated of perhaps having an occasional mass there well no once the building is gone the building is set in the we would do it outside oh and the Grove so the Grove is saying when the demolition happens well that's back to 4413 a limited list of uses landscaping is one of the things that a municipality can regulate under 4413 so I mean it's let's not kid ourselves the only reason it's now the trees are staying is because to satisfy that but the trees are a historic preservation manifestation just like the building what are we doing here well the reason I ask that is you know I understand the church's position and the applicant's position on this thing obviously there's a lot of sentiment in the community about this project a concern about it things like that and one of the reasons that the statute applicable or not is written the way it is in the zoning ordinance the loss of a significant piece of the community with something that's coming next to understand that there's some value going to be retained to the community once there's a loss and I understand the applicant can say that's not your concern at this point the concern is having the church not be used for wrong purposes but the community still asks gee what is going to happen next and that's why I ask the question Brad that's a reasonable question I think one thought that I've had is that not too long ago 2018 2019 the city of Burlington went through a planning process that resulted in the form-based code and the community acted it wasn't this idea didn't but what the community was saying was that we want to have a forward looking code that will basically be able to provide a robust level of development in a downtown so someone could have said we really should exempt this piece of property because of A, B, and C but that didn't happen so to answer your question hasn't the community actually spoken? that something of this sort could happen we're trying to find out is there any intention so there is no thought to what happens as somebody said on day two also I believe it was just to discuss what the future intended use and perhaps a mass was discussed in the green space also I believe the letter dated October 27th says the parish is contemplating the sale and has the property under contract so the future use would be a sale that's not a use that's a transaction questions from the board? nope anybody? all right well I think with that we'll close the public hearing on this item thank you what does the board want to do? thank you yeah take a minute