 He had twins. We can't talk smack on Taylor anymore because it's being recorded. So listen. Although he did put in the Discord server that this was at one and not at noon. I think that's, I was going to say that's based on his time zone, but he's actually in central time. So that's. Is he sabotaging us? Do you think the carpet pissers did this? I'm going back to the roundup, which is my source of truth. What did we say? Oh, no, it's it's noon. I have it. It does say in the roundup that it's noon, but I just I got a notification on the Discord server about like an event I might be interested in. And I said, yes, I'm going to that event, but it says it's at one o'clock and everything else is noon. So well, it was noon. It's it's noon. So thanks for coming out. We were hoping you wouldn't have shown up. No, no, Jim. Please. Hey, what's going on? I'm joking, obviously. And God, did you did you do your hair? It looks nice. Oh, yes. I've been on a very strong dying my hair phase. It was red. Now it's gray. It was blue. And I'm just trying all of the colors. Yeah. I went pink recently, but it's fading. So now I just look like a redhead. But we're actually way off topic. Jim was like, oh, we're going to record it. And immediately I started talking about hair. We can fix it in post. It's fine. It is a community chat. And hair is part of our community. Or it used to be part of my community. Yeah, I remember when I had hair. It's awesome. So we are here to talk about something today. And it's kind of hair related. It's archiving. And how does that work? You archive your hair. We'll get there, Lee. Arranged your hair, yeah. We'll make it work. For genetic purposes. So basically, the whole idea is how do we deal with, I don't know, migrating WordPress sites and thinking through some of the options. And I don't know about you, but I'm going to share a little story, and then we're going to open it up a bit. I've been through this. I have a bunch of WordPress sites. And how many of you have ever used that tool called Sitesucker? It's a weird name. Has anyone used Sitesucker? Tom has, as well. Great. So Sitesucker basically is like a site that grabs a dynamic PhD site, like WordPress or on WordPress, and really makes it a pretty seamless experience for those who aren't. And it works for some sites better than others, but let me share my screen and show you one that I did. So I used to actually keep up with a thing called an online portfolio, the main of one's own boy. And so if you look, this is a old school WordPress site that is basically just a portfolio site. It has about when I was young, projects, when I still did those, teaching experience. And I like it cuts off at some point. Where is it? Presentations. It's like 2012. And then done. So obviously, it's about the time I stopped using it. The WordPress site went on for eight years later. I had to update plugins, themes. It got hacked. You know exactly the whole thing coming soon. So I basically used Sitesucker. I took this PHP-driven WordPress site and I sucked it into this site, which is really a simple tool like put in the URL. It goes, it crawls it. It gets an HTML version, kind of like the internet archive, I imagine. And then I just run that on my C-Panel server as HTML. It's really like drop the relative HTML links and they're done. And I just take the database and files for WordPress and I push them out. It takes the images. It takes the links. It doesn't do other things. And I think Pilots is going to talk about that, but it's pretty cool in terms of just a tool. So Sitesucker, the problem with Sitesucker is it's Mac-specific. Some of them might have said that in the chat, but keep that in mind. The other one, for anyone who remembers, there was this thing called DS106 and there's actually a Wiki, a Media Wiki. And do you know how much of a PETA a Media Wiki is, left untended or unupgraded? It's rough. So anyway, we had a DS106 Media Wiki and it is a terror shot into your point. So we ran Sitesucker or I ran Sitesucker on the docs part, which actually has a link to all the different courses. It has all the kind of tutorials the community did. It's a pretty cool Wiki actually, but it's all straight up HTML. The problem here though is like when you go to something like, oh, let me look for like Dr. Oblivion. And I try and search doesn't work. None of the kind of dynamic elements which would require a database work. And that's a real kind of maybe a possible like limit thinking about what kind of site you are archiving and what it needs to do, if that makes sense. Pilot, I didn't know this is probably a good spot for you to talk about the archiving tool. My turn. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, so essentially the background, I'm gonna share my screen, it's my turn. It's my turn. But the background on this is that Taylors spent a good amount of time putting together a site archiving toolkit. Y'all, you guys are all able to see that? Okay, okay. All right, so Taylors spent a good amount of time putting together that site archiving toolkit. And it essentially uses two different tools, HTTrack and WebRecorder. And so you put in a couple of URLs and it'll crawl that site using both tools and make archives in two different formats. So it runs on Reclaim Cloud. There's an installer and everything. I'm not going to actually, well, I have it. I think I have it favorited. No, I don't. Sorry, Taylor. I'm gonna favorite it now. But so it runs on Reclaim Cloud. I'm not gonna install it for you guys right now because that'll take too long. And Taylor already has an example running that I have access to, which is archiving.ca.reclaimcloud. It's pretty bare bones because it's just meant to be a place to store all of the sites that you've archived. So this is all of the stuff that Taylors crawled. We ran a couple on Monday just as a test. But the way that you use it is pretty simple. You just plug in the URLs, you type. You go into the terminal. So in here, and then if I didn't already have the terminal open, I'd click on web SSH and it'll do that. Yeah, I don't think you guys can see my mouse, but you type in archive and then plug in the URLs that you want. So we're gonna take, let's see, come on. Why won't you let me use this? That's great. We're gonna take pledge against surveillance.net. We're gonna take reclaimed cloud as our examples. And boom. So that's gonna run for a little bit and it's gonna crawl both of those URLs. You can put in as many as you want. And if I go in here and I refresh, you can see there's an incomplete one for pledge against surveillance happening right now. And once that is done, it'll update, it'll change and it'll move on to the reclaimed cloud site. Just checking in on different options. We'll use reclaimed cloud as an example. So there's a zip file that you can download for each one. There's a log that just says, okay, while I was crawling, here's everything that happened just so you know. And there's the actual just HTTrack slash. If I open this up, it is just a flattened HTML file. It's a little similar to SiteSucker, but it runs in the cloud and it'll crawl the whole site, make a flattened HTML version. And you'll run into sort of the same issues that Jim mentioned, which is, it is pretty good at images. It's particularly best with WordPress sites and also HTML stuff, but you know, not always. And search and things like that may not always work because again, that's stuff that you need a database for. That's where web recorder comes in because the idea of web recorder is that tool does a little bit of a different thing using JavaScript and as far as I can tell magic where what you actually get is a in browser, browser version of the same site. So you can, you'll note that some of the stuff up here loaded in where it didn't in HTTrack because that's using some special JavaScript stuff, things like that. And so the idea is just two different tools that do different things. So the nice thing about HTTrack is Jim mentioned, you can just pick up the HTML or drop it in your cPanel wherever you wanna run it and it goes pretty easy. Web recorder is a little weirder. It's a little harder to, if you wanted to put it at a nice URL, it's a little harder to swing that. But they both do different things and they're both pretty good. I think also HTTrack generally runs a little bit faster because web recorder is doing weird, complicated things to make everything work. But this is actually what we used recently for the UMW blogs archiving process. This is still running in the background that Shannon can maybe, maybe we, maybe we hear your perspective on all of that later, but the whole idea here is just to give a demo real quick. And I'm actually going to just risk stuff, but you can see actually web recorder is already done. I was wrong, maybe it just runs that first. But sometimes we'll say it might hang, it might freeze and if you come back and it's weirdly still running, you can check the log and check the log. Check the log. All right, it's mad at me right now, but if you check the log, it says the most recent timestamp was an hour ago. Gotta start again. It's pretty awesome though that it does. So what I love about his tool is that it does both HTTrack, which is like you said, the site sucker open source kind of version, I believe. And then web recorder, which is more dynamic, searchable, brings in videos, embeds, media, and you have both choices right there that you can just say, okay, I wanna use this one. It's better and then put it in your directory where you wanna archive that site and walk away. Like the Fernsevner one you showed Shannon is awesome. Because I remember that site and that's a perfect use case because it's such a dynamic site. Yeah, but yeah, that's pretty much the whole demo, short and sweet, which is good because the goal of this was not for us to lecture you on end but to hear about your different experiences with archiving, what you think about. I'm actually curious also, Jim and I have talked a lot about tools, but I'm also interested in hearing like, one, what tools you use in line to what you think about trying to preserve. So I'm actually, I'm gonna stop sharing my screen but the idea of, here we go. Like, what do you wanna preserve when you preserve a site? How do you pick tools for that? How do you pick the sites that you do wanna preserve versus what you wanna keep online, what you wanna let go? So these are your discussion topics. Please break into groups. I like that M got banned. Yeah. Well, I'll talk about that because I was starting a fire in the chat. I got banned. Well, the reason I chose the tools that I did is because I was given no other choice. So I wanted to use HTTrack at first because I'm a Windows person and HTTrack is the tool for Windows and also Web Recorder, but I couldn't use Sitesugar. I don't own any Apple products besides an iPad that's connected to a MetaQuest. So I wanted to download HTTrack but I was hitting some firewall issues and I couldn't really install it. So I went to the help desk. They couldn't install it. So they talked to our cybersecurity officer that we share with St. Olaf and he basically said no. For many reasons, but the biggest reason is because it was last updated in 2017 and it opens up a lot of vulnerabilities for our institution. And there's a big thing with institutions right now where there are phishing attacks and cyber attacks ran somewhere and so on and so forth. So he just did not want to let me have it. So instead, I'm using my personal desktop which is also a Windows machine to use HTTrack. And for my campus work, I use another iPad for Sitesugar which my department paid for the app. So it was fine. One thing I did notice with Sitesugar is it doesn't like communicating with Windows machines when you're sharing archives. So a lot of the times when I archive student projects, I just share the archive with them and I don't post it in our domain of one's own instance. I just send it to them. And so the way to mitigate that was because it was changing the file names. So if you go to the settings of Sitesugar, there is a path option. And within path, you enable this setting called replace special characters with underscore. And then when you enable that, you can send it between Mac OS and Windows OS and it can pull up the archive pretty easily. I actually did this with Onika in St. Narvart. I love our Pimpa chats. Now I'm telling you though, I dig the idea of archiving that stuff and to the security officers, the other side of that is archiving a lot of these older sites though can make your infrastructure a lot safer because you're getting rid of the plugins and themes. So there's an argument for it there too. Yeah, and I just mentioned in the chat that not to stump for ourselves but the nice thing about doing it in a container in the cloud is that because there's only one thing happening in that container, the risk is pretty reduced because it's not like someone can exploit that vulnerability and get to anything outside of just the archive that you're making. So we're in the process, like if we're a few steps behind UMW, right? Where it's just like we are now in the process of figuring out what to do with the old Commons blog. And we've basically asked people, we prioritized faculty and staff and saying what would you like to do with this and then we're gonna reach out to students who have used it in the past three years. But moving forward, and then one of the things that we're wrestling with right now is moving forward how, what kind of policy do we develop for our new word press multi-site around how long things will stay up quote unquote. And so I'd be curious too to hear what other people have or have not done or what's considered best practice. You know, again, for security and stability reasons. I don't know if anybody else has only made Lauren nervous, but Lauren was always very nervous about our Commons blog installation and still being live on a server. We're fixing that, but yeah. But moving forward. PHP 4? Did someone say PHP 4? Yeah, PHP 4. If we updated it, we'd break everything. But yeah, so like what are people telling their kids and communities and users when it comes to expectations around how long things will stay up? Yeah. Great question. Yeah, I feel like the biggest. So, you know, Mayor Washington has both Domain Ones Own and multi-site. Domain Ones Own feels much more clear cut to me because that tends to be surround, like you can have a policy, word press multi-site gets tricky because there's people that own their own sites, but then once you get down to like, well, if they were adding to a course site, when I delete their stuff, do I like, I was originally, I was like, we're gonna, this time we're gonna have a deletion policy for real. Like we're gonna do it and not end up where we were. Now I'm like, I don't, I still haven't quite figured out. I would like something that is there, but it seems a trickier to untangle those pieces. You know, you could say like, well, somebody owned a thing, we'll just get rid of that. And then they find their work on a course site, they come back around, but I don't know. Yeah, it's, I don't know, but other people have wrestled with this on multi-site. It just, it feels tricky. It, yeah, it does. Which is, you know, again, like I said to, cause it, and there's also the rules around student work where it has to be available for a certain period of time. If it was something that was assessed for appeal purposes and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, again, you're right. Domain's is much more clear cut. It's like, you've graduated, you have six months to migrate, have fun. Or you've left, you've left Georgetown, you have six months to migrate if we remember to run the list every once in a while. That's great. But yeah, you're right. Work-pressed multi-site is way more complicated in that sense. On that conversation about the archiving and stuff. So I've got a question, but I'll also throw in a different perspective on this. Which is, I mean, so far, what we've been kind of talking about, the motivation is, okay, what do we do about, you know, these old sites that aren't, that are very static in the sense of nothing's changing on them, nobody's adding stuff to them. But I look at it as, you know, it's still very real content. It was knowledge that was created. It's part of the grander, larger academic project. And so one thing you said earlier on in showing us the tool was if I understand this right, one of the things you lose is some search capability. So I'm just testing whether I understand this right. So if I archive a site with this tool and then I, you know, post it as just a flat HTML site, the ability to actually search and find things in that site is now pretty much dependent on, you know, a Google or other search engine crawling it again. That's, it's, I think it depends on the tool. So the flat recorder actually does a good job of searching internally on a, in a site. Yeah. The HTML, the flattening to HTML one because you're removing the database and you're, which without providing an alternative for the search does get rid of it. But like Shannon said, the web recorder thing is designed to have an alternative baked in. Okay. So it depends on the tool. I'm just kind of wondering and, you know, so, you know, going way off on a limb here, of which I would be prone to do. What if, I mean, I can see value in over the years, particularly stuff from faculty. And we tend to have, you know, say a community college or something like that. We tend to have more revolving doors about faculty because we don't, you know, we pay them a buck 99 for a course. And apparently they don't like that, but, but, you know, folks create stuff or, you know, knowledge gets created in these course sites, which we have a lot of the course sites as opposed to DOO stuff. And it would be neat to, I think as a school to be able to just kind of, okay, for practical purposes, let's get that into flat HTML. Because at that point, the marginal cost of supporting these things is next to zip. You know, it's not like we have to run things and maintain a CMS like WordPress. But maybe if we could run our own search engine crawler and start building our own little search engine that folks could come by and, oh, let's, you know, eventually, you know, there'd be, you know, our college or maybe a group of colleges building a little search engine for, oh, you could go search for something about this and see if anybody, students or faculty had written anything about this connected at some point. It'd be a resource even for future students, but I don't know, are there? So what we've sort of done with that is the things that are worth saving and the things that we want to remain findable. We're partnering with digital, the Digital Georgetown Archives, Digital Georgetown. And so, and they've done it for actually DH projects as well. So a very early DH project, which is, you know, lost all functionality, but they wanted to flat HTML of it. And then it's not as searchable, but it does have metadata attached to it. It is then populated into the library's resources. So again, a library search would allow for that. But I mean, I got into an argument about exactly this, Jim, with Rob. Rob, who's a developer and is like, most of these sites aren't worth saving. And me, the archivist in my literary training is like, no, like you, Jim. It's knowledge, it's important. Like, there are histories here that need to be preserved for like that future nerd scholar, who's like, wonder what the, you know, we had a journalism program and it was on Commons blog, like. Well, yeah, cause let's face it. I mean, a judgment like that about what's worth saving. I mean, that person's absolutely unqualified to make that judgment, unless he knows all of the future use cases. And I think it's rather doubtful that his prescience is that powerful. I mean, that's just his, you know, yeah, that's why you archive things. Cause you can't predict what's going to be useful at some point. I'll tell you, so I'll share my screen again cause I can't help but not, but check this out. So one of the projects on top of this, you know, when we started, before we started you and the blogs, the precursor, the kind of like, you know, protocol, no, how would you say this is like, there's a good way to say that that I'm not getting. Anyway, this is the first prototype. Thank you. Yes, ELS blogs. This is all sites sucked. I used Taylor's tool, came in and all of this is still working. There was 74 sites on it. There was six or seven courses toward on it by Gardner Campbell, Terry Kennedy. This awesome guy, I heard he's one of the best professors at the university, Professor McAllister, Claudia Emerson, the late and great. So like this stuff is all, and then I have all the individual sites archived and I did them manually and even updated like media and stuff. And cause there wasn't that many, there's only 74. And all of that stuff now is kind of like you're saying Jim and Lee, like a little bundle of like a moment of the birth of a blogging system in 2006, 2007. And I don't know, maybe it's just ego and shit, but I think that's awesome to like have those little capsules, you know? Yeah, it is awesome. Even if Tom is in there gloom and doom in the chat. Tom, we love you. Don't do it. I mean, I think this is kind of the upside of doing the work to flatten things. It just makes it actually money wise more sustainable for us longer term. Like it might the cost of just running this and it being out there is negligible compared to running it as a full WordPress multi-site. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing to me. Like this isn't a technical problem really. Even the search stuff would be pretty easy to deal with, right? Like throw solar or something on it and you're pretty much done. Or if you don't mind, you can Google write a custom one with the domain to be pretty easy. But like it's how cheap is your administration, right? Cause all right, there's WordPress and vulnerabilities. It's really not that hard to keep WordPress up to date if you want to, you know, maybe dealing with some of the theme stuff as PHP ages would be a problem. But like this is much more around, they just don't want the complexity. They don't want a host to serve it as anything on it, it gets down to like, is it $10 a year? Is that too much? Maybe, you know what I mean? Like, so I don't know. To me, it's just like having a little button to click it into internet archive, hope for the best or just throw it on an external drive and keep it until, you know, digital storage is so cheap you can throw it back up on your own dime if you really care about it. I mean, we talked about this separately in another discussion this week Tom, but one of the things we're seeing generally, right, is offloading of IT and all that stuff at universities, which, you know, we have or do work at. And that opens up the question is when you offload everything, then you're doing it and like, there's no custom admin that we maybe had at one point is like, yeah, I can do that or we can figure that out and linked in with the library in a sense of archiving. Like all of that stuff is just like, there's a cloud. But it's in all these different services, it's a mess. It's probably on backup drives. Like I think it's gotta be cheap to host all of the stuff that's been done over the last 15, 20 years as flat files by and large somewhere on like S3 for like pennies, you know? And I think you could do it. It's just like you said, both the will, but even the money doesn't, it seems like there's no will to own it and what comes with owning it like as a university. I think part of that though, and again, because we're having these exact discussions right now about domains moving forward, course sites moving forward, how can we create it so that it stays sustainable? And I think part of it is where domains and course and the WordPress multi-site lives within the institution is that like the turnover, right? Like there was a period of time that if I left handles, there was literally no one who would know what to do with domains and the Commons block, right? And so there is also this tension of how do we make sure that these policies and procedures are consistent and that there can be a handoff to it, right? So it's faculty are forever, but staff are temporary sort of thing. Like it's an oversimplification, but like that's, you know, it lives in this other zone and so it's almost like you have to attach it with scholarship and then people care, but if it's not, then it's just data, right? It's going back to what you were saying, Luke. It's how are we framing these discussions for the institution, but then also who is owning it and who is responsible for it and, you know, what's the long-term planning and visioning to make sure that it stays sustainable? I agree with both, you know, Lee and Tom and Jim, what you've been saying as to how folks are thinking about it and doing it. I'm just struck by at the broad level of these conversations and in a way this is, I don't know, for some reason and I can't enunciate, it reminds me of the whole motivation for, you know, DOO and edupunk stuff to begin with. So the colleges, I mean, the universities and the colleges are all looking at this, like Jim says, they're all moving away from actually, you know, dirtying their hands with actually managing this stuff. We're just, you know, they're signing contracts with clouds, oh, it's in the cloud. And there's this big conversation going on as both Lee and Tom are talking about, well, should we, you know, about ownership and they're like, well, should we, you know, is this, it's like they're obsessed with all this data and whether it ties to their brand and whether they wanna be associated with it and it's something like that. And what I'm struck by is the people who actually operate the cloud are not having this conversation. I absolutely guarantee you that in Mountain View and Redmond and Seattle for Amazon, it's automatic, oh, there's data, we have to keep a copy. I don't care whose data it is, we're gonna keep a copy. Oh, we already have a copy. We're gonna keep another copy, absolutely guarantee you. It's suck up everything they possibly can. And we're sitting here, well, I don't know, maybe that'll be a lot of data. You know, it's like maybe, you know, call me a dreamer, but maybe someday we might actually keep all our own stuff and make it more available. You know, we've got internet archive, yeah, but why don't we build off of why does internet archive have to be centralized and we trust that somebody else is gonna take care of that for us? Like we thought Twitter was going to be useful. I mean, and I'm not implying internet archives gonna go evil. Can I ask you something Jim, I'm sorry to interrupt. How many of you folks, cause you brought up Twitter and it reminded me, how many of you folks with like a post Twitter community chat around like life, social life online after Twitter? Like... I think we did a community chat on what happened when Twitter went down. Yeah, we already did it, dammit. No, I mean, we can, now we can do one that's like whatever, eight months on. When did we have that? Yeah, I'm having like a re, anyway, I'm getting off topic. That's for December, cause we're already, we already planned November. I was just talking with Brian Alexander about that actually, but. I'm Ian, I'm actually working on, research for the post retirement gig about structures like common structures and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm all in for the discussion of polycentric decentralized social media. So. Yeah, one thing I would say specifically about thinking about internet archive versus Twitter is like the mission that people go in with because in some ways you can say just nothing lasts forever. Like you can't, okay, count on the internet archive necessarily not to go bust, but you can't, but they, you know that they went into it with the mission of we're gonna do this as best we can. Whereas Twitter was a huge resource and, you know, cultural center and hub and so much went on there. But, you know, Twitter never seems to have the end goal of being a repository or necessarily maintaining things. But they also never had the goal to be the social center that we made them out. So many folks made them out to be. Sure, but social media companies in general, that's. But everybody went around and now they're all PO'd because, oh, somebody else's thing, they're not doing this for me. You know, they're not running it just for us. It's like, well, no kidding. Yeah. But anyway, I'm sorry, I've hijacked the whole thing here. We're getting into philosophy, which also as a note, there's a lot of good philosophy happening in the chat. Somebody, someone give your take out loud so we can record it for posterity. The whole list. I'm going to put all of you on blast. All right, then. Well, I mean, like, I don't know these questions. I feel like we're not going to fix education. We're not going to fix capitalism. So we have a good way to archive some stuff. That's good. We can be happy with that. That's why I'm like not seen as a depressing statement. Just realize your institution isn't going to support it and rely on them, it's perhaps naive and end up hurting you longer. It's a long run. You know what's interesting too on that front is, so the guy who led like minor threat and Fugazi Ian McKay, Mackay, everyone pronounces that, who started Discord Records and he's basically like a big punk icon. And he gave a talk in DC in like 2000 when I was the eight, nine, I was still in Fredericksburg and he talked about personal archiving and the idea that like they did a lot of the stuff that they still have about their shows and all of it was just because they recorded everything and took like pictures and scans of all of their stuff. And like his record company, which you wouldn't expect has this really sophisticated archive system for like keeping the history of them going. And I'm fascinated about that. Like why wouldn't the university feel similarly? Like, and I know I'm not, I don't want to get into that, but like it is Tom to your point, you have to take it back almost personally and say, this is the stuff I want to keep of my journey and should someone else keep it and I'm all right with that as part of an institution will be great. But I almost feel like teaching personal archive was always one of the funnest things for me in DS106 because it's like, this stuff's going to be gone unless you want it. Nothing is truly eternal on the internet. I mean, it will be gone. And if you want it, make a site copy however you want online, off, whatever. So I like that. You may have a package, you may have a product there, Jim, which is reclaimed just, you know, I mean, you got all the pieces already. We'll call it the Woodward wormhole. Yeah, you know, it's just, you know, it goes along with a individual faculty account or something like that. You know, sign up for, you know, add the Woodward wormhole option. And, you know, it's just a place to build your own archive. It, you know, it doesn't do, it's not for installing a bunch of PHP driven crap and things like that or JavaScript. It's just, you know, it's storage. Storage with the URL. I have a potentially comment or a question that moves us into a different direction around archiving, especially around student work. So like the way even though we blogged has lasted for a long time is like, things just stayed up, right? And then we occasionally get students that reach out to us that are like, hey, I wrote this poem when I was 19 and it's really embarrassing that this is the thing that comes up when do you Google me? Can you take this down? That's fine. And so like we do, right? But like the way I feel about this is like our default mode is, and as much as we can, we try to talk to students about these things, but it's like these things are kept, like they just don't think about it after they've put it up there, right? And that this stuff just sits there out there even though it's been time and they may not actually want it but they're not aware that it's out there. It's a thing like I constantly go back and forth like, okay, we tell them this is on the public web and they can delete things at any time but what is our responsibility to make sure that they're making good and right choices around that? And the right to be forgotten if you would like to and how much do you need to be an active, active in your right to get rid of stuff, stuff not to be there about you? It's something I kind of wrestle with like what is the right thing to do or what is good policy? I mean, so far what we do works and like let me tell you pretty much like nine times out of 10, it's like somebody in a creative writing class and maybe those classes deserve more conversation then something's like, well, I wrote this piece for a history and whatever. You know, there's people tend to, the personal stuff that is kind of out there about them, they get a little bit more like, can you take us down now? But I don't know how do people work with students thinking about these things? How do you capturing them? I think Lee said something about like, I know the professor says that it's their right to reuse that I'm like, well, I don't know. Like I think students have rights over their stuff. That was a weird situation because we're like, so when we're working with the library, we gave faculty, we said you can put it, you can get a flat HTML to keep for your own archives and do whatever with, you can just move to domains or you could put it up in digital Georgetown and a lot of faculty were like, I want it in digital Georgetown. And if it was student work, digital Georgetown says, you have to get students permission. And then they were like, no, I just want a flat HTML, thank you. But again, this, yeah, we're not doing that. And most of the time they just wanted it on digital Georgetown, so it was there. But like, but they didn't really worth it. They weren't really thinking through what that meant. But one professor, again, he's made documentary films. He's huge in the Truth and Reconciliation, made documentaries about the Georgetown slaves. And all of that. And so he does a lot of public humanities work and has used, not UMW, used the comments blog for that and has been using domains for that. And so it's a little bit savvier where he does put at the beginning of his syllabus, unless you say otherwise, I reserve the right to, I reserve to use it. And he said, yeah, that's, none of my students have ever said boo about it. And I went back to the library and was like, well, this is what he said. And they said, well, if that's the case, then technically, yeah, we'll archive it. And I was like, okay. So it's, yeah, I don't necessarily agree with it. And I was sort of like, oh, that's kind of weird that you do that to your students, but also, he's a documentary filmmaker where like, there's a certain expectation. I don't know. I don't know if they discuss it more in class around those kinds of things, but I was just like, huh, well, if the library is okay with it, I guess that's what we're gonna do then. But yeah, it's weird that way. This is just because domain of one's own and account ownership keeps coming up. I was thinking of an experience that I had with domain of one's own as an undergrad where I was taking the capstone class for a minor and the capstone was to create a digital portfolio scholarship site, but the actual sites lived on an account managed by the professor. So very unclear on who gets final say because those were at the time proof of concept for the minor. So who gets to go back and say, actually, I would like you to take this down. If the account is owned by the faculty member. Oh, hey, Ann. Hello. You know what I'm talking about. I have things to say about that. So I've had this conversation with the professor you are specifically talking about. And I said, this is still student content. Although it lives in your C panel and you manage the stuff, the content itself was created by a student. So they should have final say and the whole, but this is proof of concept for the digital humanities minor and we need to keep it as an archive of this work. And I said, you can, but depending on the student's permission level of after they graduate, do they want to privatize this information? You can still keep it for internal records, but ultimately it is the student's content. So that was my approach for that. And by the way, pilot, your website is still up. Oh, I am well aware and every once I have not done it. I've been very good, but every once in a while, I'm like, I have access to that server. I could get rid of that. No one could stop me. Yeah. That professor doesn't want to get rid of anything. Nope. At all. Nope. At the very least I want to go updated because that has like my actual personal email on it. I want that gone. Yeah. I've talked to our web services group in our information technology services because they want to control everything, including domains. And I've told them that's not actually possible. Once you have your own C panel, you can install as many websites as you can. We do have a policy of appropriate use of technology, but as to what they can do is up to them. So we, I just say like we cannot control every miniscule task that they do on their websites. And we say in our, when they request a website, we have a policy now. Thanks pilot for starting that. I finished it and we put it in our request website that these are the expectations you are to uphold. And if we find out that you are not upholding these policies, then that gives us the right to get rid of your site and venue basically. None of that has happened. Students and faculty are pretty good about abiding by the handbook provided by the college. So it's been fine. The only issue has been what the faculty want to preserve with student work and versus what the students want to privatize or keep away from the public eye. I like that you're kind of student advocates there. And like one of the first blogging platforms, I think it was alongside Harvard blogs that I know Chris you linked to with the Matt Mullenwick photo op if you will. I'm not bitter though. But like Minnesota had this early WordPress multi-site right alongside Harvard at their library called Free. It was like a free zone. And the whole idea of this early WordPress multi-site was you had freedom of speech. And it was some like hippie librarian from the 60s, right? Who was just like, no, this has got to be a freedom of speech issue. And it should be out there like in the early kind of more agro days of blogging. And that sounds kind of like, you know, preserving some of that and was like, now these students should have their space and domain of what zone should be like a freedom zone. Not that we even know what that means anymore. But it had a little bit more harkening almost in 2005, 2006 when I first started seeing them. It's interesting. Anyway, it sounds like you're one of those hippies and they're making. Absolutely. My, in our academic technology team, we're a bunch of hippies. Literally one of our co-workers is an actual hippie and he's amazing. That's awesome. I love it. So along those lines of talking about students there, and I can't make any argument here for volume of this kind of situation, but I know I've had at least three situations at the flip side of that, instead of students coming back later on and going, oh, I want this taken out of the record or disappeared. I've had, there was a course. Geez, this was quite a few years ago, like 14 and 15 when I was on the sly on my own account doing this stuff in a class and having students. I mean, I was running my own multi-site and gave every student a site for the course and they did project work on that. And most of them, it was the first time they'd ever created anything. And three times, that stuff has just been sitting there because I've never figured out how to archive it, which is what today was all about. So it's still sitting there on my own paid account. And but three times in years after that, when students are gone, I got messages back from students emails like three and four years later going, hey, Professor Luke, do you remember, hey, do you remember me and B, do you remember that class we had in that project? I did a project on blah, blah, blah. Is there any way, do you remember that or any way I can get a hold of that or something like that? And usually it's because, oh, they were doing something for like a special scholarship application or something like that as a senior at some other university or other group stuff. And I said, yeah, it's probably still there. Let me look up the URL and give them the URL and it was still on the web. And I got at least two of them back where they said, oh, wow, that was really helpful in their application. So I mean, there is value to having these archives from time to time. And it's not always just students wanna bury the past because they were a little too disclosing in freshman poetry or something else. So I don't know how we balance all that, but you mentioned the business opportunity, Jim. I'm thinking $30 recovery fee for any sites you need to get back and you start, you know, that's tuition money. You get enough space. Yeah, yeah, but it wouldn't work for me because the first time would be a challenge. Second time would be second, third times refine the business process. Fourth time, ah, I'm bored, I don't wanna do that crap. The archive as a service kind of Chris is what to be the first part of this. Taylor made a tool. And like, I don't even like, with Reclaim Cloud or wherever you do it, you can do the tool and then download it and have it locally. Like, it's really pretty easy and it's almost just in time. Like you can install the little app, do it, uninstall the app, download the files or host them somewhere else on Dropbox or whatever. I mean, there's a million other places and ways you could do it. So I think, you know, we've had, you know, some students come to us after and obviously they're like, I wanna keep it. I like the stuff I did. And then they move it to Reclaim and that makes their life easier. And then maybe they have the domain and they move it to Squarespace or they move it to wherever. So I love that, but by and large, I think an archive, we were like, we're gonna give you an archiving suite. I don't think that would sell, but I think having it in the tool, like so when people are leaving, they're made of ones on, they're like, oh, I can get a quick HTML archive of my stuff, awesome. That's the tool we would love. And then you just take it and you know, you don't think about it. And then if you do, if HTML still works and has still browsers, you have a copy. Yeah. Click the graduation button and go, that's right. I like that, that's awesome. Yeah, graduation button, I love that. And then have, you know, and then have a little animation that plays, you know, I have to throw out credit. I remember Cole Camp Police, Brad, Audrey and all the folks at PSU were doing this for an education portfolio masters back in like 2006, 2007. And they had like a early HTTrack WGet script that Brad had written. And once they were done with their PSU blogs, it all got zipped up to into a neat package on HTML and they took it with them. And I was like, that is slick. And I think essentially that's the tool Taylor has essentially built and we just need to integrate it in some way. And that's always just need to, big just need. But that's the piece. And it's been possible for pretty much ever. It's nothing new under the sun, I guess. So we're talking about archiving and I'm so grateful for the internet archive. And this is probably a good thing to close on but it's just really funny. Select window or screen, way back machine. There we go. Allow. So a friend of mine started a Yahoo group and a newsletter and then turned it into a website which turned into a z called a zine called This Is Not An Exit and I wrote for it. And so you can actually find my archives from like the early 2000s to here from when I was like 22. Yeah, so you have to know that what the URL is if you just put my name in here and everything but it's just, it is, yeah. So the fun little, you want, it's like fun little snapshots, Jim. There's a fun little snapshot of which I'm glad nobody can find that because nobody should read what 22 year old me was thinking or writing at the time. But You don't want me to put that link in staff picks for this one. You want to, it's like friends. We want to. To be fair, I'm having some issues loading it, so. Yeah, no, so you have to go to like skip intro because of course it's like, you know, my friend was like hand coding this and figured out I can make a splash page. And so made a splash page. So you have to kind of go skip, you have to kind of go skip intro or like enter site. And then if you go too far, we forgot to pay for the server. We missed the server payment and a porn site swept in. And so if you go too far into the internet archive from it taking a snapshot of this URL for a period of time, it was porn, which probably also isn't. Yeah, it is a hilarious URL for porn site. And this was in the early 2000s where if you let the URL go to waste, they would just like turn it into a porn site. Anyways, so anyway, I will often go back and look at this and just be like, yeah, I was writing on the web in the very early aught and it hurts my soul a little bit. You're a true OG blogger, aren't you? Yeah, I was blogging before it was called a blog. Like I say that to people. No one believes me and I'm like, nope, here I am. I'm like embarrassing glory. A live journal importer, and that should be a whole community chat on us watching you import live journal to a WordPress site. That would be amazing. Tom, you wrote it. Yeah, like probably six or seven years ago, I think I wrote one for somebody. Was it hard? I mean, the XML stuff, if you're not really worried about a lot of drama, it's pretty straightforward. Cool. Yeah, that's awesome. This was an amazing community chat. I know we're over time and I know you all have busy, if you're like us, maybe you feel like I do right now, like so broken that this is like great to just hang out and chat. This has been an amazing hour. It's been an amazing hour and I appreciate everybody's time for hanging out with us. And you know, I'm not going anywhere, but feel free and all the stuff. I don't want you to feel compelled, but what a great discussion. And as always, thanks everyone for participating. I'll stop the recording now just to keep it clean. And then we don't take it personal. It's truly business if you have to go. You go do that business.