 Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome. I'm Miron Khalili. We are DM 25, a radical political movement for Europe, and this is another live discussion, the first of the new year with our coordinating team featuring subversive ideas. You will not hear anywhere else one moment. Okay, thank you. Just have to fix technical error there. Today. Today. Well, today marks 101 days since the start of Israel's assault on the people of Gaza in retaliation for the October 7th attacks by Hamas. Some staggering statistics for you. Israeli airstrikes have killed over 24,000 people, at least 70% of them women and children. 60,000 people have been injured. More than a thousand children have had one or more limbs amputated, many of them without anesthetic. And now hundreds of thousands of people are starving in Gaza, as famine is arriving at incredible speed, according to the UN. And that's without even talking about the devastation to homes and vital infrastructure. It's truly difficult to wrap your head around just how much damage and suffering the Israeli government has caused to the people of Gaza. But last week in the turn of events, South Africa presented a historic case against Israel to the International Court of Justice. It accused the Jewish state of committing genocide in Gaza, and it called on the court to order Israel to stop its military operations against Palestinians. Israel's lawyers responded by portraying Israel as the actual victim of genocide, not Gaza, and they accused South Africa of supporting Hamas. The court is now considering the arguments and a provisional ruling could come within weeks. Over here in Europe, well, no Western country has officially supported South Africa's case against Israel. The EU as a body has not taken a definitive stance on the issue, and Germany, predictably, called the allegations completely unfounded. And as all this is playing out, and Israel's bombardment continues, tensions in the region have reached new highs. Last week, the US and the UK launched massive airstrikes against targets of Yemen's Houthi movement to protect global shipping lanes. So could the ICJ's court case really change the reality for the people of Gaza? Could it help hold Israel to account for its crimes, or is all this just a sideshow? What might the implications be of this case for Israel and for European politics? And what could the worsening instability in the Middle East mean for us in Europe and for the world? Our panel, including our own Janis van der Fakis and our crew of activist thinkers and doers from across Europe will be weighing in on this. And today we have a very special guest. It's Varsha Gandhi-Cotta from the Progressive International, our sister organization who has been on the ground in The Hague, and will be reporting to us shortly about what she saw there. And of course, you, you out there, if you have thoughts, comments, rants, anything you'd like to weigh in on, then we want to hear from you. Please put your comments in the YouTube chat and we'll put them to our panel. Let's kick it off with Varsha. The floor is yours. Thank you, Maheran and thank you to everyone on this panel and those of you watching. I'm just returning from The Hague where we had two hearings, two days of hearings at the International Court of Justice for South Africa's genocide convention case against Israel. When I came back, everyone's been asking me what my reflections of being in the courtroom was. One thing I should mention at the outset is I think all of us on the delegation had thought so much about what it meant to be bringing Israel to court that we thought very little about how it would feel to actually be in the room with them and have to reckon with the fact that we were going to hear the same lies that had been put forth by the Israeli state government, Israeli bureaucrats and Israeli military officials, from their legal team, the same lies that have been put forth by the IDF come out of the mouths of the lawyers inside the world's top court. So that emotional reality was something that was quite hard to reckon with just from inside the ICJ. In the opening remarks on day one, South Africa's senior lawyer Adela Haasim had opened by saying, you know, this case isn't just about South Africa, this case isn't just about Palestine. It's really a test of a shared humanity. And I think she's absolutely right. We've often talked about why this ICJ case should not be seen as South Africa versus Israel. It should not even be seen as Israel versus Palestine, but it's really about Israel versus the world and it being the test not just of our collective humanity, but of Western impunity. For those of us in the room on day one, and I know many of you watching, it was extremely clear that we were reading the most terrifying document of our time and witnessing the most gruesome genocide of our lifetimes and hearing that evidence put forth in such forensic detail was absolutely indisputable. But what was implicit, and even though South Africa doesn't mention this in their case filings and their arguments is by bringing this case to the Hague, they mentioned the US, the UK, European Union and all of the backers of the Israeli state apparatus that have been inflicting this violence on the Palestinians in Gaza, since October 7, but going all the way back to history. So that's something that's really important that the South African team did, which is to not give into the idea that this catastrophe somehow began three months ago, as opposed to 75 years ago. The other thing that was quite striking to most of us in the room was the South African legal team refusing to sort to keep theatrics. So they said we're not going to show pictures, we're not going to show videos, we're not going to bombard you with atrocity, catastrophe, pornography so to speak, we're going to speak to the facts and those facts came through with such striking piercing clarity because as one of the final lawyers had said, this genocide unfortunately is one where the victims themselves have been broadcasting the massacres and the suffering that have been self broadcasting the suffering that's been inflicted upon them. They do have their hearings was a complete reverse of day one, if day one was equal parts devastating and inspiring the two was incredibly infuriating first on purely technical terms because it was a political response to what was an extremely offensive investigative legal argument put forth by the South African team to push all of the blame on Hamas whether right or wrong with simply not have a place in the ICJ because Hamas is not a party that could have been brought to the courtroom by Israel or by South Africa, even if South Africa wanted to launch a similar case against Hamas, ICJ would simply not be the place to do that. So to completely act in arrogance or in this missile and resort to a self defense tactic was was seen as quite a misplaced political response rather than, rather than legal one. And of course, it's quite distressing to watch and hear some of the lawyers accuse the South African government of acting on a master's orders and continually ask why South Africa and what bearing this government has what locus this government has to bring this case. I think the answer is something that all of us know and what I began these remarks with which is to say, of course, if you look at two countries who both have histories of suffering South Africa's put for the model of what a country and what are we going to do with that history of suffering and stand up to say never again, not on our name and we're going to stand for stand against genocide and apartheid wherever it may happen in the world. So in terms of Global South Protagon, that's what we as the global left even some of us may certainly must admit who don't put whole much faith in international institutions like the ICJ, the ICC showed up in large numbers, including some of us from the Corbyn and Jean-Luc Mélenchon or Janus on this call who have all been fighting for the ICJ case, because we believe that South Africa is absolutely the right protagonist to put this case forward, as in and of course I'm sure we'll discuss responses like the Namibian response to Germany's declaration of intervention or intent to put forth a declaration of intervention down the line. So I think for us it wasn't just about Israel being on trial, it was also the genocide convention, any semblance of international law, the International Court of Justice, and again, Western impunity that was brought on dial on the last few days in the Hague. Thank you very much for that, Varsha, that analysis really appreciate it. Janus, for us. Well, thank you Varsha, thank you everyone. Israel, of course, is on trial in the Court of International Humanitarian Opinion, as well as at the Hague. But maybe what is far more interesting and useful is that it is the West's hypocrisy regarding universal human rights, which is on trial, the contrast between the positions that European and American leaders have taken when it comes to bombing civilians, switching off their electricity, carrying out massive, massive attacks on the ground without any concern for civilians in Ukraine and in Gaza, is a case study in the West's hypocrisy. It is interesting that Israel has decided to defend itself at the Hague. And I say interesting because they could have said no, we will not recognize you. Like they've said so many times, they have not recognized the authority of the United Nations, they have referred to the Secretary General of the United Nations as a criminal. They have no compunction whatsoever. So it's interesting from a strategic point of view, and quite worrying, I have to say, between us, that Israel has decided to defend itself or to pretend that it is defending itself at the Hague. And I'm saying that it is worrying as well as interesting because let's be clear. If the ICC comes out with an exoneration of Israel, that is going to be a major blow at Palestinians, at anyone who cares about universal human rights, about international law and about the Geneva Convention. It is not beyond comprehension or our expectations that the ICC may side with Israel on this. If it doesn't side with Israel, it is a major victory. The fact that any ICC decision or order to suspend the hostilities and to effect the ceasefire is not going to be enforced. There's no doubt that it will not be enforced. Israel will continue to do that which Israel wants to do with the full support of Berlin, with the full support of Washington. That is still a victory because public opinion matters. The more I think about it, the more the 7th of October reminds me of the moment in Vietnam when the offensive by the will come through the cities of the south. The Ted Offensive, which failed. I mean, they were all killed by the South Vietnamese and the Americans and they were condemned for cruelty. There was quite a lot of cruelty, I have to say. Nevertheless, that changed the course of the Vietnam War. It infected the American middle class, the American public with their conviction that their campaign was not sustainable in the very long term. And once that happened, it was only a matter of time before the resolve to continue the occupation of Vietnam waned and withered. Israel is going to lose. The question is, will Israel's defeat come before or after the annihilation of the Palestinian people? In the end, our comrades in Israel, progressives in Israel are going to be the ultimate losers alongside the Palestinians who are losing life and limb, who are losing even the hope of a sustainable life. Things are not good. Whenever I hear, even though I am void myself, I feel good hearing. Chants on the streets, London, Athens, Berlin, Palestine will be free. I don't see this happening. Not anytime soon. Victory is not guaranteed. When Rosa Luxemburg put the, you know, one trillion German question, barbarism or socialism, the answer was not obvious. Or maybe it is becoming obvious and the answer is not socialism, it's barbarism. I know that progressives and activists are not allowed to come out with such pessimistic statements, but I do believe that realism is in the interest of the struggle. We will never give up even if we are pessimistic and we will succeed or the probability of succeeding is enhanced when we take into consideration and we are truthful about the enormity of the struggle ahead. You can see that Germany has no compunction whatsoever to side with the genocide simply because this is their elite's way of doing two things at once. Continuing to embed themselves in the United States block and the United States military industrial complex decision making process and washing their hands clean of the memory of the Holocaust and their own genocide. My own country is a great source of pain for me. Let me remind you or tell you if you didn't know that Greece did not recognize Israel until the 1990s. We didn't have left-wing governments before that. Right-wing governments in Greece sided with the Palestinians. Right-wing, very right-wing governments, even the fascist government we had in the 1967-1974 era, they were siding with the Palestinians and they were refusing to recognize Israel on the basis of the Nakba. And look at the situation we are in now. A government of the Social Democrats beginning in 2010. A government of the right in 2014. A government of the so-called radical left, the one I left in June 2015 after I left, embraced Netanyahu. Not only recognized Israel but have completely sold the other Palestinians. We are projecting the Star of David on our parliament as thousands and thousands of children are being slaughtered in Gaza. This is Greece. This is a country that sent its navy to Lebanon in 1982 to save the Palestinian fighters of Yasser al-Affad and Fatah and the PLO. A NATO country did that back in 1982. And look at us now. We have a steady deterioration of our standards as Europeans, as Westerners, as the so-called global north. In a sense, by fighting for the Palestinians, we are fighting for our own liberation because none of us can be free as long as Palestine is in apartheid, in a state of apartheid. So I will wrap up by saying that the fact that it was South Africa that brought the case to the Hague is a brilliant response to those who accused DiEM25, the Progressive International, all of our comrades, of getting our history wrong when we discussed Israel as an apartheid state. I remember years ago when I first talked about Israel as an apartheid state, I was lambasted by Israel's supporters, Zionists, who were incensed that I dared compare the ANC and the Palestinians and Hamas and even Fatah. So when you have the South African ANC government going to the Hague and point an accusatory finger at the apartheid regime and call them out for being an apartheid regime that is practicing genocide, that is a remarkable contribution to our struggle. Thank you, South Africa. Thank you Namibia for taking a remarkably poignant position against the German government by reminding the German government that it has never atoned for the genocide in Namibia and how dare they side with the genocide in Israel and Palestine. Thank you to the Progressive International, to all of us here in DiEM25, but let us not fall in love with our own capacities and contributions. We have done very little compared to that which needs to be done to liberate the Palestinians before we liberate ourselves. Thank you, Yannis. Yannis mentioned their Germany and Germany's enthusiastic support for Israel's actions. Let's move to Lucas February, who's Brazilian but based in Germany, for the view from Berlin. Lucas. Thanks, Meryl. When you care about politics and you're active in politics, the last thing you can afford is to be lost for words, but I have to say it's a constant struggle at this point. Over 100 days in, we have hundreds of people massacred every single day, sometimes as much as 700 people. And so it is, to me personally, at least it is a struggle. So I won't speak for too long and I'm thankful for the interventions of Varsha and Yannis, which to me don't leave much to be added to, but I wanted to mention two quick things. First, from, well, two things about the proceedings in the Hague that we witnessed last week. First, the first thing comes from Israel's defense, actually, which is something that you alluded to in your introduction, Meryl, which has been an argument for a very long time now for the Israeli government. It's an argument which is parroted as many arguments of the Israeli government are by the government of the country, I mean, of Germany, which is not only that what's happening in Gaza and in the West Bank and in Israel is not a genocide, but that the Israelis are the victims. That obviously, you know, has been for a very long time since the beginning, really a staple of the Israeli playbook. I think, you know, it's one thing to use this argument in times of relative peace as we know there's never peace and there's always injustice, but it's one thing to do it there. It's another thing to do it when this is happening, when hundreds of people are being massacred, children, women, the elderly, innocents, every single day. And it's just a fantastical thing that just never ceases to just boggle my mind. And in a way, to me, it's the ultimate illustration of this hypocrisy of the West that we speak so much about. You know, the West claims to be the greatest soldiers of humanist values they have done it for centuries. And in order to proclaim, to defend these values in the abstract, in the, you know, in a plan of ideas, in a plan of words, we are willing to go against every single one of these values in the real existing world. We are willing to massacre, we're willing to plunder, to ethnically cleanse, and indeed to commit genocide to protect people from the abstract hypothetical genocide that you made up in your minds. You know, and then the second thing that I wanted to mention comes from the South Africa's arguments. And to me, that was the, although as Yanis said, you know, let's not get in love with the work that has been done so far. But it did bring a sense of relief, which I think is important because for months now we've been bombarded every single day on our phones, on our laptops with not only the images coming from Gaza. Recorded and published and shared to the world by the Palestinians and this heroic work that they continue to do every day. But by the Israelis, by Israeli soldiers, by Israeli politicians, we see images of soldiers, you know, demolishing buildings, mosques, schools, hospitals for no particular reason. We see them brag about murdering children. We see them chant about biblical references to extermination, to genocide and to ethnic cleansing. And this is social media content, they make it for social media. It's meant to be on TikTok, it's meant to be on Instagram, it's meant to be on Twitter, and indeed that's where we encounter this content and that's how you consume it. And that drives you insane, very quickly. And there was a small sense of relief in seeing these images displayed finally where they belong on a screen at the International Court of Justice, not as social media content anymore, as fleeting videos and images that we see on TikTok and scroll to the next video. But as a permanent historical record of this, which is one of the greatest crimes of our times. Thank you for that, Lucas. And I would like to ask you, while you've still got the floor, about the reaction online and how activists processed the court proceedings and how that was received. And if there were, you know, if new light was shed on the online battle in this propaganda war, we couldn't take on that? Well, on this last point that I mentioned, I know a lot of people feel the same way because I've shared it before, I've voiced it before, and many people said they thought and felt the same thing, even though in many cases it wasn't something that you're able to articulate until you hear someone else saying it out loud. In terms of how that will affect the activists, you know, actions and mobilization moving forward, it's obviously a very important positive development, I think. And the details of it, which have been already mentioned, that make it particularly important and particularly historical, the fact that it's South Africa that has brought this forward. The fact that Germany has decided to intervene as a third party in support of Israel, the fact that Namibia has responded to that by condemning Germany and drawing attention to the general side. These are all things that I think help continue to build and sustain the momentum which we have been witnessing for the past few months. So, as Janice mentioned, and this is a constant concern that I personally have as well, this momentum cannot be lost. Obviously, it's at its most intense phase, as it should be, as the genocide is still ongoing in Gaza. And this will end one way or the other. Of course, we hope that it ends with the end of the genocide and with Israel's loss essentially, and not with the complete ethnic cleansing or indeed the extermination of Palestinians in Gaza. But I think it's important for all of us to realize that there is no short term complete victory here. We need to realize that the world wasn't rosy on October 6 and it has suddenly turned into a hell. It is as bad as it has probably ever been. But this is a battle, a very acute, very dramatic battle in a wider struggle that we must continue to fight for months, for years, maybe for decades. But it's important to send a message that that's exactly what we're willing to do and that's exactly what we're here to do. Thank you, Lucas. And for those of you watching out there, I direct you to the interview that I did with Lucas a couple of weeks ago where we really dissected the online activism component of the fight for freedom of Gaza. Two comments in the chat hard ad says maybe Palestine won't win, but I think Israel will lose. One thing that has changed is that the taboos have been broken and people are now daring to criticize and Mehdi has a question which if all of you would like in the panel would like to consider in your responses. Why can't Israel and regional countries be legally forced to allow the free flow of Palestinian civilians like with Ukraine. Ditto for the flow of humanitarian aid. Amir Qiyaiyya, policy coordinator based in the Hague and was also, of course, at the proceedings in the Hague, the floor is yours. Thank you, Mehran. Look, those two days at the ICJ were really historic days, both for the cause, both for us in where we're thinking in our, sorry, sorry about that. Can you see me now? Yeah, your camera's back on. Go for it. My apologies there. And these were historical days as Lukas mentioned that this is going into the historical record. And the argumentation that is used to justify what Israel is doing has become the irrelevance of it has become really clear for the general public who got to see and follow this. And I'm saying this because I was outside the Peace Palace in the press section and also with the activists and demonstrators. And it was quite beautiful to see the level of support that was coming both for Palestine and South Africa. The flags were everywhere and the chance was thanking South Africa. This has made it really clear for whoever wasn't aware of the issue because of the international coverage. The BBC, the Telus Tour, all the Sky News, etc. were there, but they were broadcasting it to the regional audience in the Middle East. So you had BBC Persian, you had Sky News Arabic and so on and so forth for the South African on the South African Day. So I think I'm not sure in what countries everybody may have seen it, but there wasn't quite so much live coverage on day one where South Africa was presenting as there was in day two. So that's a case of inherent bias in the media, but we also know that the public is getting its information from alternative sources and people are much more aware of it. There has been a knowledge victory, if you like, generally speaking. Similar to the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, the general increase in global public consciousness and the numbers that we're seeing. And I mean, this is now 101 days and we have half a million, a million people coming out in the UK elsewhere. People are still daring to go against the Berlin police that we saw again these past few days and so on and so forth. So this is not going away. And in the demonstrations, it has become a unifying issue as well. We saw activists from the environmental movement, from the homelessness movement, etc. Everyone's coming together on this and that's an unstoppable force for the right to justice, a just society. So these are the things that we see on the other side of it, of course. It might not immediately bring an end as we've been talking about here on the panel, but it is increasing the pressure on those. And, you know, the one point I had noted down to mention as well is that this level of impunity of Israel, and we've seen this for decades, ignoring UN resolutions, shooting those humanitarian aid convoys as it wishes, you know, not cutting off water. Those are like massive, I mean, we haven't even, this is unheard of. I mean, it's like a medieval siege situation. It is not a 21st century behavior from a state that causes self-democratic. The only democracy is quote-unquote in the Middle East, as Israel is always referred to. This level of impunity is only possible because it's dependent on the support from the global hegemon. That's the only real reason. And here we see that the power of the hegemon, the United States, is waning slowly, but surely. There was a naval coalition that they wanted to put together against the Houthis. That didn't really happen, right? There was an announcement, these, you know, 12 nations, 15 nations are coming together to stop the Houthis, and the ships left, the American warships left. Then now there's a new air strike coalition, and it's just the UK and the US. France declined to join, Spain declined to join. So we're slowly but surely seeing the waning of the power of the United States as the supporting its outpost in the Middle East. And that might also be at some level a wake-up call for the people that are living in Israel, because without the support of the United States, it's impossible for the Israel to really exist. I mean, we're talking about billions of dollars of direct financial support and so on and so forth. And if we look at the amount of cost that, you know, we heard the health budget is getting cut in the Israel, et cetera. It's just not sustainable. Israel is not sustainable, as we've mentioned before on this live stream. So these are wake-up calls as well as the people that are living in Israel to, in a sense, do what they have to do to turn the page and come to a political solution sooner rather than later. Thanks for that, Amir. Can we ask you a question just to look back to the ICJ case and something that Yanis also touched on? Why didn't Israel choose to ignore the proceedings? I mean, why do you think that it went for it? I was quite surprised to see that. I was almost expecting ourselves disregard this kangaroo court. Forget it, we're not going to do this. Why did they end up going for it in the end, do you think? Well, it would be slightly speculation because we don't get that memo in that sense. Look, if I were to put my hat on on the other side, if you like, in that sense, they believe they have a strong case. They believe that they are defending themselves and so on. And they want to make their case known to the public and as well harm the South African government, et cetera, by linking the South African government and other activists to supporters of, again, following their line of supporters of Hamas. So they need that public stage and they were given that public stage, as I mentioned earlier, on the Western media. They covered their words a lot more. So that's one reason of it. The other reason of it, I mean, again, these are hypotheticals. You could see that Israel is, and the history of Israel, the history of Israel claims going back to the Holocaust and some of the authors of the genocide convention, et cetera. There's a link to that and it would be very difficult for them to claim that link and then not be there when they called upon to dispute relating to this. So it would be very difficult for them politically to have just ignored it. Okay. Thank you for that. Johannes, Johannes Fair, based in Germany, who is yours? And actually, German. So my government was it on the 12th of January that did this thing. And one awful detail that hasn't been mentioned is that the 12th of January is the date where 120 years ago, the genocide against the Herero and Nama people in today's Namibia started. So all the more reason for the furious response of the Namibian government. And I can say we're not all thinking like this government is actually a big shame for us. I want to also remind of another intervention that the German government did alongside Canada, Denmark, France, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom in November, where they went in front of the same court. They recalled that the genocide convention requires state parties to prevent the crime of genocide and hold those responsible to account. That's what they wrote. They cited in the case of Gambia against Myanmar. And they argued that Myanmar's security forces perpetrated widespread and systemic clearance operations against the Rohingya people and that genocidal acts committed during these operations were intended to destroy Rohingya as a group in whole in part of the use of mass murder rape and other forms of sexual violence, as well as systematic destruction by fire of their villages, often with inhabitants locked inside burning houses. So this was me quoting from that press release of the German government just two months earlier. And yeah, the hypocrisy is very, very open. I think all people around the world that want to write, they could watch this court site also the first day, which wasn't much covered in western media, but on Azure Zira and other platforms, you could watch it. And I think there's actually also quite a big part of the German population. And there was recently a poll asking if the use of force of Israel in Gaza is justified and 61% of Germans in that poll said no. And only 25% said yes, it is. So I think you can also organize in Germany against this. And that's what we're doing. I'm going to use this for a small commercial block for a small European German party, Meta 25. We were also present in the Hague with our European candidate for us, but hey, many other German leftist unfortunately were not but we were. And we are working to send someone from Germany to the European Parliament that actually different from most politicians that we have currently in our parliament would speak out on behalf of Palestinian but also of course other oppressed people around the world. And currently we're collecting signatures. So if you are there can help us if you are living in Germany, especially or if you know people that live in Germany, Meta 25.de slash EU is the link. We'll also put one link in in German for the Germans would be great if you could help us because it's actually not so easy to collect this signatures in Germany paperwork bureaucracy and so on but we have to do it and hope you can help us. Thank you. Thank you for that Johannes and that address again, Mera 25.de m e r a 25.de to help with signature collection in Germany and make sure that we're on the ballot for a real alternative in the upcoming European elections in May. Varsha. Let's bring you back in. You know, you know, Janice and others on this call us this question of as activists both in Europe and around the world looking to do more. What is still some critical openings that exist. I come from India, of course I spoke earlier as the general coordinator progress international but coming from India it's what the relationship between our government and the Israeli state is one that's completely neglected. And then there will be especially in the last 10 years of government in the country has has been given a clean chit for the very material abetment of Israeli occupation of Palestine, and of course and so forth with seven the gem side of the Palestinians and Gaza. The other way around we've also now over the last year has begun to produce the weapons that are being used to slaughter the Palestinians and Gaza that extends from drones that act as eyes for all Israeli fighters and military jets to surveillance technology, which are being produced in the big tech hubs of the country like Hyderabad in Bangalore. And of course, now extremely grossly, India is planning to send about 100,000 workers or laborers from construction industry to replace Palestinian workers who can no longer work to Israel under extreme exploitative conditions. So one of the, one of the levers so to speak that I think all the fastest activists whether a DM and otherwise should be focusing on is also how the global south new age authoritarians are abetting the Israeli genocide and what are the ways in which we can support the movements taking on their own countries there. Thank you very much, Varsha from the chat. A couple of comments. The outcome of this case as Rustam will be pivotal on how other nations view the UN and its legal arm in the sense that any country can claim when carrying out a genocide that they can use the notion of self defense. And a couple of recommendations for media outlets that people are talking about. Chris Co recommends Owen Jones for interviews on on the subject of Israel Palestine, Philip Blair talks about the speech that Dr. Victor Frankel gave against collective punishment in 1988 in Germany in Vienna he highly recommends it and badger also says democracy now is a good source of inputs for alternative news on this topic. Let me please bring Yanis back in to wrap us up Yanis. I'll take it back to Germany because the German position is so ever so president for two reasons first because Germany is still despite its economic crisis the locomotive of the European Union and the most powerful country in the European Union. And of course because of the history of genocide and you know the collective guilt of the Holocaust which is becoming a license for Israel to commit any war crime, as long as Germany does not have to disavow it. But you know, Germans, of all political and social ills, pride themselves, and I think rightly so for a tradition in German intellectual history. A tradition of rationality. It is after all the country that spawned Emmanuel Kant and Gerhard Hegel. And yet the gross irrationality of its political cast, one faced with the question of Israel and Palestine, is mind boggling. And we, as team 25 in particular as matter 25 Germany, we need to point this out. The official position of everyone in German, from the CDU and the CSU all the way to the link is that the whole of the spectrum of German the German political cast supports the two state solution. Well, the two state solution is dead embedded because of the government of Israel. The official representatives of the people of Palestine who are not Hamas are the Palestinian Authority. They are Hamas, Fatah, they are the PLO. They signed the Oslo course and they recognize Israel. They laid down their arms. They collaborated with the Americans and with the Israeli security forces against the Palestinian militants in exchange for the two state solution. And what happened? The leader of Likud, who was a party to this these negotiations was murdered by an extremist. Who says that extremism and terrorism doesn't pay? It does pay. That policy of the two state pollution solution by the Likud party was blown up. And the official position of every single government since then that the two state solution is not going to happen. So the German government, which is supporting the two state solution is refusing to acknowledge that the government of Israel, which it so generously supports is the one that has killed the solution that the German government is telling us is the only thing that can stop the bloodshed. That is a gross violation of the principles of rationality for which every German I know, especially of the right wing of a right wing political persuasion believes in the second point I want to make. Before concluding, is that another incongruity reigns supremely in the quality of the federal republic. On the one hand, they have laid down the law that anyone who speaks of anything, liberation, freedom, rights from the river to the sea, is violating German law, because they assume that by simply talking about something going on between the river, the Jordan River, and the Mediterranean Sea, you're talking about genocide, even if what you're advocating is equal human rights between the river and the sea. And yet, at the very same time, when Zionist organizations in the same country in Germany talk about a greater Israel from the river to the sea, which is clearly an incitement for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians between the river and the sea, that is fine. So in other words, in Germany, you are allowed to talk about genocide, but only if you support it. Allow this to percolate in your mind. And if you support it on behalf of Israelis against the Palestinians. If you oppose genocide, you can't mention the word. If you support it, it's fine. And since I mentioned Hegel, I need to conclude with him. Hegel made the brilliant point in narrating his infamous master slave paradox, in which he was saying that slavery and slaves even the master, because the master in a slave, slave only owning society has a deep need to be a acknowledge by a slave who doesn't have the agency to acknowledge the master. And in the context of that discussion, he said that no people can be free if they subjugate another. That I think is a very good message to Germans and Israelis who are doing their utmost to continue the subjugation of the Palestinian people. Thank you for that, Yanis. And we're at the top of the hour. So that's it from us. Thank you very much to our panel. Thanks to our guest, Varsha Gandhi Kota from the Progressive International. And if you out there would like to join DM 25, rather than just listening to us if you'd like to roll up your sleeves and work with us. It's very simple. The address to enter into your browser is dm25.org slash join. Also, as Johannes and others have mentioned here, if you're in Germany and you would like to help us collect signatures for our German bid for the European elections, then go to Mara 25.de to sign up and help out. Thank you again for all your comments and questions and see you at the same time.