 All right, we are alive. Sorry, we had to postpone this. I was, had a bad cold, but I feel much, much better today. So rested and ready to chat about Robin Hobb. Feel like I suffered like fits for three days. I mean, physically, not emotionally, but you know, I don't know, I feel like I'm through it. It's like a good prep for Hobb. Yeah, you, well, no, we said we were not gonna start with spoilers, so I'm not gonna start. Okay, so, well, first, I mean, you've been on my channel before, but if you would like to introduce yourself. Yes. And your relationship with the Queen Robin Hobb. Yes, yes. Hello, librarians. I am Mara from Books Like Woe. I've been on here, but it's been a while, I feel like. Or I guess I've been on Book Club. I was about to say it's been a while and I was like, well, but Book Club. Oh my gosh. Okay, also pause, sorry. My cats are displeased that I'm not petting them just one second. I mean, how dare you? Okay, well, in the meantime, let y'all know that we plan to do non-spoiler for like 10, 15 minutes just as a courtesy, but I figure anyone who's interested in like a compare and contrast discussion is probably, you know, anticipating spoilers, but we will do non-spoiler for a minute. Well, we can get like, if you've not started yet with Hobb, here's like our thoughts about that. Also, I think we can address the, because I think both of us got, you know, different opinions and advice on, can you start with live ship? Do you have to start with Farsie or things like that? So we can like address that for anyone considering. Yeah, we can get into that. But yeah, sorry, in terms of my relationship to Hobb. Sorry, my cats are like. They would like to tell us their relationship to Hobb and it is one of neglect, because every time you read Hobb. Exactly. It's like, why is our mom weeping into this book? We don't know why. I have only read Robin Hobb with you. So Leanna is my official Robin Hobb co-pilot and we started with Assassin's Apprentice in January, 2020. And then we took a big old break and then we like geared back up in 2021, but like the next two years are gonna be like balls to the wall, Hobbathon. Yeah, we're starting Tawny Man next month. I'm excited. Yeah, I'm a tail. Yeah. But I love Hobb. I mean, I don't know. I think I'll be interested in this conversation. I think you like her probably more than I do. I think as a- I was gonna say, I think you like her more than I do. Well, okay, maybe I like her more than you, but I think you like these books better than I do. If that's somehow possible. Like I think I've rated them lower than you have. Yeah, but I feel like also weirdly, even though I'm known for like being angry all the time, like I think you rate more harshly, meaning like a good rating to you, like a book that you would can say that you love, you would give four stars to, and you say I feel my feelings very much, which is why I go with like fives and ones a lot where I'm like, I loved it, or I hated it, and I don't have any in between. Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I love RobinHop though. I'm excited for that. Wine, ice cream, and Kleenex that they're ready for. Bulls fate, ugh. I cannot wait for us to get into time. I know this is about live shipping far easier, but I just, everybody hypes up Tawny Man so much. But that's how I felt going into live shipping because everyone hypes up live shipping so much. Well, exactly, and now that we've experienced live shipping, I'm like, well, holy fuck, like what's Tawny Man like if live shipping was like this? Tawny Man, it's all a good type, but then also people say that the end of all of this is also like a big mind blown, wow thing, where you're gonna wanna reread everything. Apparently, so I don't know. I mean, I'm excited. I guess if that's a non-spoilery indicator, we're both very excited to continue, so. Well, I think it's also, the idea of it being, I mean, the chat about comparing all these authors is tomorrow where I'm gonna talk about like Hobb, and I'm gonna talk about it tomorrow. I'm gonna talk about Hobb and Abercrombie and Martin, but like I've said before, like Abercrombie has written like 10 books that are all first law, but he's broken it up, so there's a trilogy and then some stand-alones and then a trilogy. So they just feel like more digestible chunks, same with like Realm of the Elderlings that it's not like a 16 book series like Wheel of Time that it's just on and on and on and on. There's like off-ramps. If you need a break, there's clear places for you to be like, okay, give me a minute here. Yeah, so like, I think that makes it feel, I don't know, like less of a intimidating endeavor. Like when you say the Realm of the Elderlings is 16 books, you're like, but if you're just like, okay, a trilogy and then another trilogy and then another trilogy. And like, so I keep the ones I have not yet read in my bedroom and it's like eye level, so I've had a lot of time to like contemplate them. And I've noticed that the ones that are coming up are much shorter, so it looks like the last trilogy is also pretty chunky. I'm just gonna say that the Rain Wild ones are quite short. Well, but even like compared to Live Ship, I guess, because Live Ship, each of those was like 900 pages. So that was- It was like after Assassin's Quest, they just stayed at Assassin's Quest like. Yes, but like, but the next one, which I think is fool's errand, it looks like it's more in the like 500 page realm, which I guess like that tells you something about what these books are like lengthwise, that I'm like, oh, okay, 500 pages. Like that's totally, that's much less of an event. Welcome to being a fantasy reader. If you think 400 pages, you're like, wow, that's a novella. Yeah, exactly, right. I finished up Empire of Sand today and I was like, whoa, that flew by. That was only like 450 pages, nothing. I honestly, whenever like I veer off from my general fantasy course and like pick up a thriller or pick up a romance or pick up a lit- They just go by so quickly. I'm like, one day. I was like, no wonder you guys read like 30 bucks in a month. Exactly, people are always like, how do you read so much? And it's like, guys, I'm not reading more than piece over here, okay? I'm reading like, morning glory, milking bar. It doesn't take that long. I don't think I could quite reach your guys's numbers, but I mean, that's why I've often said to me, the number of books you read in a month or in a year or whatever, it's a somewhat of an indicator of how much you read, but also like reading manga versus reading like a hall book, not same. Well, it's just like different types of reading experiences. And it's awesome. Like someone like Bethany is who I'm truly in awe of because she's like cranking through these pretty chunky fantasy books, like several of them a month. I can do like this month, I've read two chunks of books. I can do that. It's just, that's all I'm doing. I don't also read 30 other books. It takes it out of me. It honestly takes like, I would say as much if not more work for me to get through one of these Hob books than it does like a classic. Well, and I mean, that's also, I feel like that's in part to do with the length, but also just Hob's writing style. It is denser. It is more like reading Dickens. Yeah. And it's quite Dickensian and it's like constant emotional torment. Yeah, I think it's much harder to read than Dickens. Dickens, you can get chomping on. But it's, and also because like I'm a themes reader and there's just so much to think about with a Hob book. Like there's a lot there to... I just feel like, I mean, like, you know, Pip from Great Expectations or David Copperfield. I just feel like they and Fitz would be like quite... Yeah, it's definitely that mode. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like the building's Roman kind of vibe. But it's just like also the intense emotional trauma and like that you're just so utterly eft from like being born. Yeah, emotional trauma is like a defining theme, I feel like, of a Hob book. And also Dickens, so... Also Dickens, yes. But Hob, to my knowledge, didn't imprison his wife, her wife for being mad so that she could marry an 18-year-old. So I like Hob better. It's a really high bar. Yeah. I think it was Jimmy that was telling me that I guess in an interview or something that someone had asked Hob like why she tortures all of her characters or something like that. And that she had said something about how like when she had been studying writing craft or whatever that someone had said that like it's through adversity that characters grow. And you know, well, you really ran with that. Oh, constant drama. It doesn't feel like trauma porn though to me, even though her books are so... But like, I think that's actually kind of impressive. Her books are still... I mean, she like approaches the line of trauma porn and just stays on this side of it. Yeah. I mean, there's a weird kind of like hopefulness almost, especially in live ship, I think. Let's just say, well, that's, I mean, even again, this is not the compare and chat, but like that's why like as it, you know, her writing style has something similar to Abercrombie in terms of great character work. It is really dark. There's some really dark things happening and dark people with dark like psychies, but it's not grim dark. And I don't think it should ever be shelved in grim dark because your POV is someone like Fitz who is quite hopeful and isn't, you know, blocked up. I mean, by the time you can see end of assassin's quest, it seems like life has somewhat beaten him down. Yeah, but it's not that kind of like cynical nihilistic. That's what it is. It doesn't feel cynical, even though it's like dark, it's not cynically dark. It's just like, yeah, this like life is fucked up and fucked up things happen in life, but you keep going. Injecting a little hope in the middle of the anguish. Yes, I agree. And I think there's also a sense that while the answer to things might also be quite dark in terms of like what's behind the magic thing or what's behind the conspiracy or like what are the motives of these people that we've been trying to figure out? There's some sense of like it might be something quite dark or complicated or what, or, you know, that it won't necessarily be a positive or good thing. But again, it's less cynical with like an Abercrombie book. I'm like, okay, so what's the FDEP twist? Like what's the evil, horrible reason behind everything and like that magic itself, you know, like in a Hob book is sometimes like, and we'll get into it with live ship, but like magic can be a quite a complicated, not necessarily good thing. But it doesn't also like, again, when you read even just the blade itself in an Abercrombie book, like the very first time you see magic being used, you're like, oh, this is super messed up. Please don't ever do that again. That shouldn't ever happen, please stop. So. Yeah, I think in Hob it's very, well again, like there's a kind of realism to her world, magic is not like, we'll have to come back to that. I don't know if I agree with that. Oh, for me, no. Though I would say I left live ship matter at the ending than I did in Partier. But it's not more depressing. Not more depressed, more just like sour. But anyway, I just think magic is- But that's also like, I think less to do with like the story itself being a depressing story and more just you like not liking some choices. Yeah, yeah, which we'll, that's what we'll get into. Should we start with our- That's for real. With our caring of the two? Like we're still in non-spoiler territory. Yeah, let's quickly do the, can you start with live ship? Would you recommend like, definitely starting with Farsier or could you start with live ship when you, now that you've read both and you know how much of a spoiler you're gonna get? Yeah, I personally decidedly prefer live ship over Farsier. Like definitely for me. I think because it's multi POV and just like some of the themes she was addressing in live ship just resonated more with me. But that be, so I guess what I would say is I think it's better for you to start with Farsier because I think by the end of live ship, or actually even just by the end of mad ship, I was glad that I had read the Farsier trilogy first. But I would say that if you start with Farsier and you're not getting on with it, you could jump to live ship I think and get a multi POV that's maybe a little more accessible to people. Like I think live ship is easier to get into than Farsier is for a lot of readers. So like that would be kind of my recommendation is if you try one or the other and you're not liking it, try the other one because I could see somebody liking one but not the other even though they're both good and both still feel very Hobbes like it's not like they feel totally different. They just one is multi POV, one isn't, one is a longer period of time, one's more like what 18 ish months in live ship. Well, so I mean like Farsier hinges on you liking fits or liking being with fits because that's it. Exactly. Only fits. So like whereas live ship, like maybe you don't like a character, maybe there's a handful you don't like but there's like some options to carry you through and be like, okay, well, I don't like being in this person's head, but like it's not the only person I have for three Chonky books. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I personally prefer live ships definitely, but I know, well, like in Urza is saying that they definitely prefer Farsier. So like I think people like one or the other sometimes like I'm not saying everybody would prefer live ships over Farsier. I'm just saying I think live ships feels more like a typical fantasy, adult fantasy anyway than Farsier does. Farsier, I think it's a little bit more of like it. At the same time, like while I, at first my instinct was to totally agree with that. At the same time, I feel like it feels less like a traditional fantasy because it is like, I don't know, the types of magical elements and all the ships and all of the economy. And it feels quite like as opposed to like being in a castle where there's like a chosen one or two who like that feels quite traditional. It's less like chosen one. Yeah. Which Farsier feels more like that version of chosen one. Yeah, or just like it feels very again, like, Harry Potter and King Killer Chronicle and even Wheel of Time to a greater lesser degree, start with like a young protagonist who's like, in a castle, near a castle, maybe going to a castle and is like learning their life purpose is like so super like traditional fantasy. Yeah, that's true. But I agree with what Jennifer said. I'd recommend starting with Farsier because you'll get the most out of it. But if you are gonna DNF Farsier, try Live Ship before you just totally give up. So this is also a good way to describe what's different about this in first law. And yeah, like as much as I choose to spend my like virtual like time in first law world a lot, yeah, I would not want to visit the world of the first law. Whereas even though Hobbes world, it's not a perfect magical world. It's not idyllic. No, far from it. But you can imagine a happy life in the Hobbes world. I don't really, I couldn't really imagine a happy life in the blade itself. Well, and also like as we just talked about like the slight difference between magic, like sometimes magic is complicated and dark. Sometimes it's beautiful, but there are like definitely magical things in Hobbes world that would be cool to see or encounter or experience as opposed to again, in first law, you're like, no, no, thank you. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I think in Hobbes, a lot of the darkness is kind of under the surface. Yeah, it's a very like, I mean, it's a very relatable darkness, you know, just like kind of greedy messed up people who might be bullying and might be, it's not, I mean, I don't wanna say it's not sinister because it is quite sinister sometimes, but I don't know, it feels like a very, that's why, maybe that's why it also is so depressing sometimes because like if you read an epic fantasy where there's some evil people doing evil things, you're like, oh, that's so messed up. Versus like, I know this guy, I have met this guy and fuck this guy. Well, I mean, the most, for me, the most hateable person in the Hobbesian world we've encountered so far is Kyle fucking Haven. But he's really the only one, like even the other bad people for the most part, like I get why they're doing what they're doing. I get it with Kyle too, but I just think he's like a bad, like I don't really see any good qualities of him. What about Regal? I at least like get where Regal doesn't feel as mustache twirling to me and he's not, and I don't get to see his evil with his child in the same way, like it may, Kyle feels so part of him part feels so detestable because of like. Well, with Regal, it's with his nephew. Like is that better? Oh, I know, but he's like, he wasn't, I don't know. Don't make excuses for Regal. He's a bastard, like he doesn't, I don't know, like an evil uncle is a little less sinister than an evil father. Right, I mean, it's degrees. Yes. I mean, I think it's worse when it's an evil uncle to an orphaned nephew who doesn't actually have a dad. That we know fits, it was born to suffer. That's why he feels very David Copperfield, honestly, reading about this. You're like, and another horrible thing. And then a brief moment of joy and you're like, well, that's not gonna last. Also, well, we'll get into it, but he's just so like, he's so dumb about some things fits. So is David Copperfield. Which is, yeah, it's true. Amphib. I guess like my answer to can you start with live ship, should you start with live ship, et cetera is, and I think I've said this like in a few like, when people have asked it like in the comments of videos or whatever, just to be like, okay, I think like best case, best of all possible worlds is you start with far seer and you read it in order. But like, if reading far seer is gonna put you off hob then I would say then reading live ship is better than not reading hob at all. So start with live ship if you really cannot with far seer, but like ideally start with far seer. Yeah, I totally agree. I got so much more out of live ship having read far seer and there's an Easter egg that I was delighted to spot that I can't wait to learn more about cause I'm real excited. I also, I don't know, I mean, cause I think in order to probably understand where everything else goes, you know, like to read tawny man, I don't think you can read that without reading far seer, it's much more tied as far as I can tell with- I feel like I heard somebody who started with tawny man. I've also think I've heard someone who started with the last trilogy. Fits a little. I think some people just like go buck wild and start wherever they want. Well it is, I mean, unless you look it up because each one says book one of 80's own series so it doesn't say anywhere, but you can't start with this one because there's some others before it. So, but I just feel like you can't, if you do start with live ship, you will have to go back and read far seer if you want to read this series. So like, you may as well start with it. Cause I don't think, I don't know how good it would be to start with live ship and then go back and read far seer, you know? Yeah, I think in part I find live ship more consistent and it's quality. You heard it here folks. Definitely. Well, there you go. I mean, Dari, I'm just telling you some people just go balls to the wall and do whatever they want. Like they just go for it, but. Night eyes is the brains of that pair that goes on. That's, that is accurate. Oh, was I gonna say? Oh yeah, I think live ship is more consistent and it's quality in my opinion. But I think you don't necessarily agree with me on that. And well, this is, I mean, I think, yeah, reading far seer, I less felt, I mean, I still felt like, wow, we're just like in a totally different part of the map where like, I don't know that I learned anything useful from out of reading far seer that would help me with live ship. But at the same time, the types of magic that populate this world and like the way people engage with like things outside of themselves, like with the wit or within the live ships. I feel like you're more primed to be like, that's the kind of thing we do in this world after far seer. Like the skill and the wit helps you to be okay with like talking to ships. Yeah, yeah. Well, and also like, again, I think there's allusions in live ships to some of the magic that we saw like directly. Like I wonder if you would even catch some of the references in live ship if you hadn't read far seer about the wit and the skill. Yeah. And of course, I mean, there are also like over references to like, oh, this person is from like the Six Duchies area. And you're like, what is that? Yeah, exactly. Far seer. Which I think is cool, by the way, like that it's totally, that's something else I like about the series is that they're totally different. It's so impressive to me that it can feel like the same author and have totally different vibes and totally different parts of the world. Like it doesn't feel like a one trick pony. That I think that's just super impressive that she's able to have such different societies with such different vibes, different character types. Like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, well coming off of far seer, live ship is no longer first person, it is third person. It's no longer single POV, it's multi POV. It is not in the same place. It is not the same magic. And like just like a whole different type of thing we're doing. Yeah, well none of the same, well. None of the same characters. Ish. Not, you know, none of the significant players in it are. Yeah. At least ostensibly you're like, hey, I haven't seen any of these names before. I haven't seen this place, don't know what we're doing, how the rules work here. They have different governing laws, different rules for everything. Like it feels like a totally, which like, I mean, it makes sense. Cause like if you, you know, write a book about England and then you write a book about Italy, it's gonna be different. Yeah. Yeah, very that. It's just impressive. And the writing is so consistent throughout like the depth of the character work. I think that was what really just like increased hob in my overall estimation is seeing like, oh wow, okay. It's not just that you go deep into one character and you give us- And you surely do that. She can clearly do that. She can like plumb the depths of a single character, but she goes so deep on so many different characters in live ship. Like, yeah, it's probably like one of the very best ensemble pieces I've ever read. Of like- Yeah, and I mean- Interested in all the plot lines, interested in all the characters. Like there's not, I'm never like mad about being in a plot line. I'm always into what's happening. Like that's so rare for multi POV, I find. And I feel like it's only because the thing that I'm comparing it to is such an intense deep dive into one character that like I feel like it's less deep of a dive into the characters and live ship traders, but like compared to most other books or series, the deep dive of live ship is pretty unbeatable, but compared to what you get with fits, it feels quite shallow. So- Yeah, that is a fact, which is wild. But like you could, I mean, unless you spend thousands of pages it's just one character. But with Quartz, they can never compete. She built enough characters and live ship that she could have done that with any number of the character. Like wouldn't you love to see, oh man, okay, this is my fan fiction. I would love to see a fits-esque single POV deep dive first person with Malta. I was gonna guess Malta. She's not my favorite character, but like I think of them. She would be- She also like starts the youngest and most naive, but like a totally different kind of naive than fits a kind of cruel or naive. Yeah. And to see her- Well, she comes from a privilege. Telling her own story in first person. Yeah. Oh my God. I would love that so much. Robin Hobb, come on. She has a whole bunch more books for you to read. Like you haven't run out yet. I know, I know, but that would be amazing. Okay, so anything else? I mean, okay, well, I guess you said you definitely like live ship better than Farsier. I really struggle to answer that because of what I just said about the deep dive that like I just cannot feel like kind of emotional and like connection that I feel like is forged. And I mean, I no pun intended between yourself and Fitz. Yeah. But like I just, no matter how deep it was, no matter how much I felt, no matter how interesting it was in live ship, none of that could ever like, you know, pierce as deep as Fitz just because that you spend so much time and so much emotional. Like, you know, I can't- Yeah. It never hit me as deep. The Mad Ship is a perfect book in my opinion. And it made me feel those feelings. I mean, like if I was gonna rank- It made me feel a lot of feelings. It's just as compared to Farsier, I'm like, okay, but did it dig as deep as that? And it didn't. But for me it did, I think, because I think also because I just connect so much with Althea, I don't know. I would go Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny, Ship of Magic, Royal Assassin, Assassin's Apprentice, Assassin's Quest is, Assassin's Quest is definitely my least favorite of them. I haven't thought about ranking them and especially not like merging the rankings between the series, but like, yeah, I mean, Assassin's Quest didn't drag from the way that it did for you. That wasn't my problem with it. I didn't like the ending. Whereas I actually liked the ending fine. I feel like the way that I felt about- I feel like the way that I felt sort of soured by the ending of Assassin's Quest is more like how you felt about the ending of- The ending of Live Ship of Destiny. You're actually exactly right. I wonder if that's because- We connected more with each of those series. So then at the end, we needed so much more from the, we needed specific things out of it. We were like, what the heck? Yeah, I've had several people comment to me that they feel like there's never something that Rob, that Hob always has something wrong. That's how I feel with her books. That there's always something off in them and that she's not gonna ending things. I don't know if, I mean, I don't know yet because I actually disagree. I liked the ending of Assassin's Quest and even though I have problems with the end of Live Ship, like I don't think it's necessarily objectively bad. I just personally have problems with it. But- Well, and a lot of people, you know, vague to not give me spoilers. We're like, okay, I hear you on that you had problems with the end of Assassin's Quest, but once you get to the end of the realm of the Elderlings- I've heard that so many times. Many times, yes. That you'll be glad you read Assassin's Quest by the time you get to- Well, not just glad that you read it, but like when I was like, I don't know why I had to be like X, Y, and Z at the end. Like I didn't like those answers. I didn't like that. People were like, okay, but end of realm of the Elderlings, you'll circle back to that and be like, okay, I get why this had to be like this. So I really hope that's true. Well, but I already like the ending of Assassin's- I liked it fine at the time, but I like it even better having read Liveship because I think some of the things that get set up there, like thematically get deepened in Liveship. In fact, I would say that like a lot of what I didn't like, not all, but a lot of what I didn't like in Assassin's Quest about the ending. And we're still being non-spoiler right now, but we'll get to spoilers later. But still non-spoiler, like it's beginning to do a very similar thing to what is done in Liveship. But it was only just introduced like in the like 11th hour and it's suddenly this like bizarre thing that's introduced and the way it's being described is so amorphous and so wibbly-wobbly and seems so out of left field that I was just like, what the heck is this? What is going on? And then Liveship is like a deep dive into how something like that actually kind of works. And it just like was so much, I was like, okay, I mean, okay, yeah, that kind of makes sense. But when you just like threw it at me at the end of Assassin's Quest, I was like, what? Well, I just kind of roll with it. In general, and with magic, I'm just sort of like, it's magic, like that's fine. See, I mean, if it's the kind of series where it's always, it's magic, so it's fine. It's a series that I would have given up on and hated and Hobb never felt that way to me. Like everything, like the wit was so fully explained and skilling was so fully explained that when we got to the end of Assassin's Quest and this new thing was just like, blah. And that's how we end the book to explain what's been. And I'm like, what was that? Yeah. Well, and again, we're not to spoilers yet, but like there's parts of it that I was like, okay, that's like, that's interesting. This is, you know, encouraging. I've heard, and I've heard that too. I've heard that like it rewards getting all the way through it, which is not a chore because I'm in, even the book that I would say Assassin's Quest was decidedly the one I liked the least. I still gave it three and a half stars, which to me is a B plus. Like that's the worst book I've read from her so far. The rest of them have been A minuses or A's or A pluses. Like, yeah. I mean, any book series that you can read 22 times, I think it's gotta have something good about it. Man. Because those are not short books. Yeah, that's quite a commitment. Man. So are you and I gonna do a yearly binging off so we can catch up to dairy? Oh my God. No, I don't think that that's in the cards for me. You could just give Ms. Assassin's Quest. Yeah. I don't think that's in the cards for me, but I definitely, once I get all the way through. I mean, I think I read First Law a lot and I'm not on 22. Yeah. I mean, I've seen the Scream series 22 times, but those are movies, so like, it's a little different. Yeah, this is 16 books. Yeah. They are not short books. And some of these books are like 900 pages. I mean, I probably could reread like Ice Planet Barbarians that many times, but it takes me approximately two and a half hours to get through one book. So like. I mean, I think it's nuts that I've read Ella Enchanted 17 times, but Ella Enchanted is a kids book that I can read in a single day, even when I was a kid. So. Oh. Well, should we transition to spoilers? Or actually, before we do that, let's do Favorite Characters. Okay. I would say Fitz is, Fitz and the Fool are my favorites in the Farsier. I probably actually like the Fool better than Fitz and Farsier. And then Althea. But the Fool isn't around enough to like, the Fool is kind of like the Jack Sparrow type character where you're like, I like when you're around, but like. Yeah, exactly. It's like I get excited when you're around. Yeah. Yeah. And then Althea is my favorite in Live Ship, but I also really love Amber, Paragon, and Malta. I would say those are my like VIPs. Not Wintrow? Not after the ending. Up until that point though, like pre that, would you have said Wintrow? I would say through Mad Ship, yes. But starting in Ship of Destiny, I started being like, yeah. I don't know. So my favorite character is Kyle Haven, and then probably. Then Regal. Then Regal, they can't edit. Yeah. Actually, okay, so I think it's. Considering that you love the blade itself, then maybe. Yeah. I think there's two ways to approach the question of a favorite character. Someone that you just like and would want to be your friend, or someone that you find fascinating to read about. It's like, first law, like these are people that you find fascinating to read about, not people that you're like, oh, I just love you so much. So like, I mean, Kenneth from that perspective is one of my favorite characters. He's a great character. He's a piece of shit. But he's like such a fantastically written character. So like he is one of my favorites to read about for sure. Yeah. Oh, someone put Night Eyes. That's actually, let me revise. My favorite from Farseer is Night Eyes. That is actually. I was gonna ask. I love Burak and I love Ketrican. Like, I mean, there's so many great characters. And also, I mean, you haven't talked about like one of the strengths of these books is how much, how many great female characters there are in both series, not just. Oh my gosh, 1,000 million percent. And they're like, they're not all good or all bad. Like they're well-rounded. They do interesting things. They, I mean, I feel, that's part of why I love Live Ships. I feel like so much of it is about like toxic patriarchy and like women trying to find their place within that. And like, they all handle it really differently. I mean, Live Ship is about toxic patriarchy too. They're both about toxic patriarchy. Well, yeah, I agree Farseer is too, but I feel like, I don't know, I feel like the journey, because we're not in one POV, the journey I feel like of Live Ship is a lot of really interesting women finding their place within the patriarchy. But again, I mean, like with, between Molly and, oh, what's a? Ketrichan patients. Patience, that's what I was trying to think. Ketrichan patients. Like they are also women that are carving out their place in a very male dominated society. That's true. But I guess I just feel like because it's so much from Fitz's point of view. Fitz is such a dumb dumb. I just can't even tell when people are pregnant. Like he doesn't even know how babies are made. Like. But you're like, it's again, like Fitz is a character where like so many things that he does that he is so dumb about. It'd be so easy to write him in a way where you hate him. And you really can't hate him. You're just like, oh, you're so dumb. He's so dumb. But he's also so wonderful. I mean, I love him. I do love him, but he's just, he's kind of just stupid about life and a lot of things. Well, I feel like that's why he's also young. I feel like Night Eyes is a good foil because Night Eyes is sometimes like, while it's a canine perspective, it is still the reader's perspective of like, well, that's dumb. Why would you do that? Why can't we just go and be docks? And you're like, yeah, why can't you? Oh my God, Night Eyes. Okay, sorry. We can, are we ready to officially move into spoilers now? We've kind of started, but. Let's do it. Okay. Officially, if anyone hasn't, I think basically from chat, it looks like everyone who's in chat has read even more than we have. So they should just tell us what's going on. If anyone who's not read through the end of Live Ship Traders, this is your final. But don't spoil us for Tawny Man. We haven't gotten there yet. Next month. Yes, we'll start next month, but, okay. So, I will, oh yeah, Berk. I'm wearing, you sent me, for Christmas, you sent me Berk earrings. Speaking of Berk, the end of Royal Assassin is just like, oh my God, it broke me. And I read it before you did, and I was like, have you done it yet? Like, are you there? For you. It's, I mean, that's, again, it's like I, the feeling of the end of Royal Assassin, there's no point in Live Ship Traders where I feel anything that's that much feeling. Trying to think of the moments. I did in Mad Ship, like I cried a couple of times during Mad Ship. I'm trying to remember when that was. The panel where she talked about Fitz making the worst decisions and her talking to her computer in frustration that he just added a hundred pages to the book. Her boldest, like, when he literally cannot figure out, A, that he could have gotten Molly pregnant, and B, that Molly is pregnant. I'm just like, you are such a dumb dumb, like what? In fairness, I don't think. Berk never give you the, I was gonna say, I don't think Bucky has good sex ed, so. If you have sex, you will get pregnant and die. Pretty much. Yeah, so the ending of Royal Assassin is just like utterly, like, and then the way that she writes him coming out of being in Night Eyes, like being in mesh with Night Eyes at the beginning of Assassin's Quest, that's why I mean, I could never say I don't like Assassin's Quest because I personally really love the beginning is amazing and like how convincingly she has you in that perspective and like seeing, you can like read between the lines of Berk's response to things. Like, it's just so beautiful. And then I really like the ending. I know people don't like the whole like, carve dragons thing. The only thing I didn't like is the fact that he like body swaps with what's his face to fuck Kedrican, like that was when I was like, this is, whoa, okay, this is a choice. This is where the fact that Robyn Hobbin, Georgia Martin or BFFs begins to seem more like, oh, okay, yeah. So are they? Yeah, which is also, I mean, again, we'll talk about this tomorrow, but like you, did you, and I don't think you've read The Song of Wires in Fire and did you watch the show? I read the first book and said I like this, but I do not believe that it will be finished and I don't want to commit. Okay, well, and I'm very, that was 10 years ago and I was right. Hey, you know, it can still happen. He's not dead. It could, I don't think it will though. But, because there's a lot of talk about that where we leave off in the books, there's a situation that most fans think is gonna be royal assassin. Wait, what? There's a situation with one of the characters which at the end of the last book that we have in The Song of Wires in Fire that most people speculate is going to be royal assassin. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, I caught some spoilers from the show, like the Hodar stuff, the red wedding, like I feel like I know some of the like highlights but I don't know the details after the first book. You're muted. Since this is speculation, I don't know that this is a spoiler, but the thing that happens before it for this to need to be a thing, I don't know, Game of Thrones is so like around that I don't, I don't care. Okay, if you guys don't just like, just plug your ears. I feel like you put your Potter at this point do we really need to like heavily disclose who dies in Harry Potter at this point? It's been a while. So, I mean, obviously the show had to like write its own version of like what happens and you know, we're pretty sure it's not gonna happen. Meddling success. Yeah, but so a lot of the time like whenever things got wibbly wobbly and very like conceptual and magical, like I feel like the show runners don't know what to do with that unless George R. R. Martin already wrote that for them. So like I think anything that ended in a wibbly wobbly magic way or that would be eventually resolved that way. The show runners were like, we do not know what to do with that. We're gonna write some BS to fix that. So like... I don't know what kind of CGI I have access to to make this work. But there's basically like, basically warging in the world of Song of Mines and Fire is the same as the wit or very similar to the wit where like you have a connection to animals. And so all the Stark kids are pretty much confirmed to be wargs where they can like connect with their wolves and there are other people in the world that can do this. But it's not really talked about and like some people kind of know about it and the kids are kind of figuring this out on their own. So like Jon Snow and his wolf ghost are like definitely connected. And since Jon Snow is dead at the end of Dance of Dragons people are guessing that it's gonna be Royal Assassin. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I figured that's what they didn't. Did he actually die in the show? Yeah, but they had him resurrected in some other wibbly like magic way that didn't involve his wolf. Hand-wavium? Yeah. So like the, it's very like, he's basically connected to ghosts the same way that Fitz is connected to Night Eyes. So. Yeah. I'm guessing Robin Hobb did it better because like, how could you top? Well, this hasn't happened yet in the books. We're just speculating. We're just beginning of Assassin's quest. Yeah. But yeah, stuff like that is when you're like, yeah, they're friends. This is, this is very similar. And just like, one thing I love about Farsier, I will say, and again, it's not like I don't like Farsier. I want to be clear. I do, I very, very much enjoy Farsier. And I like flagship. Yes. The way that Fitz doesn't see how much people love him and like you, the reader can see it again because he's kind of a dumb dumb about feelings but you can see how much like, preclose him and like, but you can read between the lines and it's just like, oh my gosh, I, Oh, no, I mean. He knows he can't top Hobb, so. Yeah, he can't. So he's got to come up with something different. But yeah, the, just the sort of like, the way she lets you as the reader draw, like connect the dots in a way that Fitz can't is so moving because it's like, if Fitz, if you could see this, I think you would feel a lot less like, alone and rejected because it's so clear that there's so many people in your life who like just love you and value you. Ah, which I think is also, I mean, I mean, it's partly that he's dumb, but I think it also is a representation of like, plenty of times people in life, like they're not dumb, but like they don't realize that other people care about them. And like, that's a very real thing and it's very relatable that like, people have been there where like, they're like, no one cares about me. No one loves me. I die tomorrow. No one would care. And like if someone outside person saw that and saw their life, they'd be like, that is categorically untrue, but you can't see it for yourself. Yeah. No, that's true. And it's like you, it's so hard for us to have like perspective sometimes on like the realities of our own emotional entanglements. Like it's the reason why it's always easier to give your friends advice about their dating life than like to take it in your own dating life. Like it's always easier kind of on the outside looking in. But I find that that's one of the most moving pieces of farce to me is just fits. It's just in his heart, he just always feels like that abandoned little boy. And he is also so emotionally stunted because like the connections he formed with animals very early on, those were shut down in the most brutal way possible. So of course he's like a fragile, broken. We should have mentioned this in the non-spoiler section of like a content warning. Because like if you're gonna read high fantasy, I'm assuming that you know that there's gonna be sexual assault at some point because unfortunately it was the nineties, but the animal death and harm in farce-er people should be aware of because it is devastating. Especially because like, I mean, that's always sad, but because fits is so connected to the animal and can feel it. Like is, I didn't think there was a happy death sadder. And then Robin Hobbs was like, well, I'll hold my beer. Oh my God. Yeah. And his name was Nosy. Like that's so cute. That's why it was like, I can't get too attached to night eyes. Like because I just, I was so excited he made it. I was convinced that she was gonna kill him. And I was like, you won't do this again to me, Robin. Like you've got me once, but I don't, I'm, I'm still- Instead of night eyes dying, she killed Fitz. Yeah, well, you know. I mean, honestly, It's his turn. If I was choosing between the two, probably would pick night eyes, but I still, I'm keeping my eyes open, going into Tawny Man. If night eyes are still alive by the time that trilogy starts. Yeah, cause like, I mean, wolves wouldn't live a human lifespan. I don't, well, but like, if they're connected to a person, does that like extend their life potentially? I don't know. In a paranormal romance, being connected to a where usually means that the human's life gets extended. So, science. But like going back to your point about Assassin's Quest being so, it being believable when he's coming out of being a wolf and whatever. I just feel like in general, the fact that she takes, I mean, there's not, it's no accident these books are so long is because to like handle a lot of these topics in a way that doesn't feel like magic random stuff that like you have to kind of delve in this patient way to make it feel understandable, approachable and real. And I think that these people are actually dealing with instead of like a plot convenience instead of like, because again, I've said so many times, you know, on the surface of it, like if you just tell me there's a series, you know, where like people basically like talk to animals and that they talk to ships. I'd be like, that sounds super dumb. Honestly, if anyone else wrote it, it would be talking ships, would be what Thomas the Tank engine, high fantasy edition, like no thanks. That sounds like- I would be so into that somebody write this. Only if Hobb writes it, I would like talking trains next place in her, when she goes to- Her steampunk, yeah, her steampunk series is- Talking airships. The dirigible. But yeah, it's like, I think, I don't know, it takes the kind of reader that is okay with the like slogging, I guess, patience with it, but I think that's what makes it feel real. But it doesn't feel like a slog normally. Like I get that these, I know that that's people's critique, but there's always something happening. I think if you're not a character driven reader though, or like if you aren't connected with- That's what I was gonna say. I mean, it doesn't feel like a slog to us because we like character work like that. But if there are, I mean, I feel like not to like make it sound like this is, I'm not trying to crap on him about this, but like Brandon Sanderson, I think himself says, like he writes plots, not characters. Like that's his focus. Like, and there's a lot of readers that aren't character driven readers. And like, I mean, I, you know, I like character driven things, but that is like admittedly a personal preference. So to me, I feel like a book is objectively stronger and have had a good, better character work, but clearly there's plenty of people that would rather read Brandon Sanderson than Robin Hobb. And I think, you know- Well, aren't just like, you read different books for different things. And if you're reading- Yeah, but it's like, if you're expecting the next plot point to happen in a Hobb book, you're gonna be like, waiting, waiting, waiting. If the only thing you want from fantasy is a really cool plot that's like boom, boom, boom, boom, which is a totally valid experience to want, Hobb is not gonna be your gal. But I like that sometimes, like I like plot driven things, but Robin Hobb just like delivers, she just delivers that character, thematic juiciness and depth and like heart wrenching destruction. I just, it's so good, yeah. But yeah, I think that's, I mean, I guess what I mean, we could have said this in the non-spoiler part, but that would be a thing to know if you're gonna start a series like this, that that's the kind of writer she is and the kind of books these are. That's why it's not 900 pages of non-stop action. It's 900 pages of non-stop like character moments having introspective conversations with each other and thinking about it for pages on afterward. Like it's not, I mean, when you're live ship creators like, oh, it's like an action venture pirates and like they're boarding ships. And I mean, there's some of that. But mostly it's not that. But yeah, it's not. There's a lot of, well, I also love political machinations. That also might be part of why I like these books. They're two very different types of political stuff happening. I feel like one is more like economics and commerce and more like late people. And the other is, you know, the politics of state. Yeah, yeah. But also like, I don't know, like changing culture mores. I feel like that's a big part of, well, I guess both of them, but particularly- I was gonna say that clashing of cultures between Ketrican's people and the Six Duchies bucky people. Yeah. Also, hold please. My cats are trying to eat this light. So I'm gonna go turn on one of their toys. It's like I have children and I have to turn on the iPad for them one second. Okay. If you hear the little grinding, it's because there's like a little thing going in circles for them to chase. So. Oh, cats. I saw your Instagram story. She was being particularly adorable today. I think it's also because like for like three days I've been bedridden and like she's been around, but mostly I've just been like, I cannot deal with you. I am briefly up to get more tea. When she was like buzzed between my legs, I'd be like, no, not right now. So like today I could like fully appreciate her cuteness again. Like I'm sorry I ignored you. You know, that's the joy of, oh, they are Marple and Hastings. And they are my babies, but they've been spoiled. I know. They're two, two and, I guess almost two and a half. Cats is almost one. Baby. You know, I just can't imagine that she's gonna get any bigger, but I know that she will. They, yeah, they're their full size, but they're still pretty small in terms of like in the scheme of cats. Yeah. So anyway, I could talk about my cats like all day long. So. What does your sweatshirt say? It says, stay home and read a romance novel. And it's got two people with masks on the cover of the romance novel. This, this was my pandemic quarantine merch. I was gonna say, I feel like this is like basically the advice of the New York state or New York city for like COVID's safeness. Yeah, yeah. I got this I think in like April of 2020. I was like, this is gonna be my merch for quarantine. Can we talk about the problem that I have with the end of life? There's cat interaction in Tawny Man. I mean, if her cats are as great as her puppy dogs, then we're in for a treat. I'm into it. Okay. Here's, I want to talk about the end of life ship because in contrast to what we were talking about how we love something in Farsier. So one of the things that she does, I think in general well, is talking about like mental health and like trauma. Or mental unhealth. Mental, yeah, mental illness. And so, okay. So again, spoilers, we're in the spoiler part. At the end of live ship, Althea is raped by Kennett, who is a piece of shit and nobody believes her, which is believable, sadly. But this is why I don't like Wintrow because like hero worship is not a good look on you, bud especially when it comes to not believing your aunt who is a victim of sexual assault. But my problem, so like, I don't that, I mean, obviously I didn't want that to happen to Althea but like that wasn't my real issue. My issue was how it was then handled, which is that ultimately, Paragon ends up like, magicking away her assault trauma. And I know that's not what it says on paper, but that's how it reads to me. And it just thematically, so like the other thing is that pretty much everybody at the end of this book gets a happy ending except for Althea. I mean, at least like somewhat happy. She is now living, I know, but I know that's what it says, but that's not how it felt to me. She is now living on a ship that has the personality of her rapist ingrained in it, has the eyes of her rapist in the ship head and she is not the captain. She's living on Brashen's ship and her fucking nephew has her ship and granted, given the morality of what we now know about wizardwood, I don't know that anybody should be the captain of a ship at this point. I think it'll be interesting to see how that happens going forward. But that bothered me, like that it's not that it's a bad ending. I just personally emotionally was like, I don't like what this is suggesting thematically about how trauma works. That's just how I felt at the end. Yeah, I mean, like I would tend to agree with that. And I was struggling to decide what I feel, is it different than the fact that the ship was able to physically heal limbs and fingers and skin that like healing is a thing that the ship has been shown the ships that they can do. And I'm like, because like my initial reaction is pretty similar to yours, not as visceral because I wasn't as attached to Althea, but I was just like, I don't know if I like that. But is that different? If the ship can heal you physically, why can't it heal you emotionally? Yeah, it's true. And I mean, like I've experienced sexual assault. So it may be that I'm just like personally very attuned to like takes a lot of time. And I mean, again, everybody's experience is different, how it hits everybody is gonna be different. But for me, I was just like, I don't know that I love that this is the take. Like I actually liked the way that that happened with Cirilla better, like in sort of the aftermath of it. So I don't know. It's not that I don't think sexual assault can ever happen in a book. I just, it was hard for me that everybody else seemed to have a relatively optimistic ending. And for me, the ending Althea gets is with Monica dreams being that ship that has her rapist in it. I was like, when you just ran down the list, I mean, I would tend to agree that like, I don't know, I don't know what we're doing here with the we semi-healed her from rape trauma. Like why, why have her raped in the first place? If you're going to magic it away? Like, I mean, the idea is that it's like the cycle of abuse, right? Like when it was abused and now he is the abuser. And like, I get on paper probably why she did that, but. But like, again, like she has frequently had characters experience trauma that does not get magic to away. Fitz's trauma does not get magic to away. So like, why? And I feel like, and that still would have bothered me, but the way you just clearly laid out all of her, basically her situation at the end of live ships. And I think if her trauma had been magic away, yes, but we didn't also have that the ship she's on has his soul in it. The ship she's on looks like him. The ship she's on isn't her ship. Like if all of those things weren't also true, like if she got her trauma magic away, I'd be like, okay, well, the ship's magic away. A lot of pain is a thing they do. All the other stuff. Yeah. It's the fact that she's on the ship. Also you were shipping her in Brashen. You were shipping her in Brashen in Mad Ship and I was not. I was like, I don't want this for her. So when that happened, I was like, how is this a happy ending? Yeah. No, I liked her in Brashen together. It's not that. It's just like, I don't know. I think the fact that she is on a ship that her rapist is inside of in some way is what really just like, I don't know. That's for me. I was like, that seems horrible. No, I know that. But the eyes, aren't the eyes like eyes? Yeah, I thought it was his eyes. He, otherwise he looks like Fitz, right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, no, it was, yeah, I meant the eyes when I said who it was. Yeah, just the eyes. But anyway, all that to say, I really like how she handles trauma for Cerella. I like how she handles trauma, different kind of trauma, I guess, for Fitz. And I actually even like how she's, like I like the realism of how she's portraying Kenneth's response to like systemic sexual abuse as a child, like once you figure that out, it's like, oh, well, okay. A lot of the pieces of the Kenneth Puzzler coming together here. And I think, I mean, like as Darry says, like it's infuriating, but in the same way that Kyle Haven is infuriating. Like when you see the reaction, this is, you know, pre-magicking in a way. Like the fact that she wasn't believed, like I remember like emotionally being like horrified, but like, I don't know, intellectually being like, yes, this is well written. This is, this is what happens. And like, I am so angry about it because you are writing it so well. That, I didn't have a problem that people did. I know, I've never forgiven Wintrow for it, but I didn't, I didn't necessarily, I didn't have any problem with the fact that people didn't believe her. But I mean, I feel like even, hello, yes, of course people don't believe. But I feel like it would have almost been, it would have been too simple, goody two shoes, make my good characters wholly good to have Wintrow. Like I liked that he was like, and I think, isn't he, does he say that to, who does he say it to that he's like, you know, if I told you that Brashen did this, like would you immediately believe it? Which, yeah, exactly. And you're like, yeah, the fact that you can't let go and that you might be of like, how this cognitive dissonance where like, by the end he's like, he doesn't not believe it, but it's also like, that doesn't gel with how he feels about this person and what he emotionally knows about this person who did, who was quite kind to Wintrow in his own way and did save Wintrow in some way from Kyle. So like the fact that Wintrow would feel that way, you're like- I mean, I don't, I don't like Kenneth, but like as a character, he's so interesting. And it totally, I mean, not that rape is ever excusable or rational, but like it completely makes sense given his history that that is the place he ends up. Like- I feel like so again, much worse her books, like Handling Magic we already covered that like would make it like this, they can actually animals, isn't that fun? But here too, I mean, it's too easy to make like a villain who is a rapist, just to be like, oh, I'm evil and I rape people. And like when Kenneth- Yeah, like what? I mean, twirl my moustaches and tie you to the railroad track, like- And like, Kenneth isn't, it's not, she could have gone two equally bad ways with it. One, where like, oh, he's so traumatized and you're like, oh, we feel so bad for him. And it's, he's secretly just a trauma baby and we love him. And we could have all, you know, a moustache twirling villain. And I rape people because I'm evil and it was neither. Like every time I read a Kenneth chapter, I was like, I don't know how I feel because within one chapter, he would say something great and he would say something awful, like every single time. And I was like, here, I'll fuck you. But like also, I can't- Well, it's so interesting. She does such a good job of making him complicated because it's like, okay, you're like freeing slaves. And I like that. I don't think you're doing it for good reasons. And even- It's like, only Robin Hobb can make me feel complicated about someone freeing slaves. It's like- But also like the, his relationship with, what's her name? His, you know, his girlfriend. Who's on the ship as well. Who's a badass? She's a bad bitch. I like that. But again, like the constant like, you know what Kenneth thinks of her and you've seen how Kenneth treats her from Kenneth's perspective. And then you hear her version of how she perceives that and how she internalizes what he's doing and how he's doing it for her own good and he's saving her. And I mean, it's also, it's the same with Wincher. Like she's not wrong. He did save her from what she was doing previously, gave her freedom, gave her opportunity, singled her out for like, being his like kind of chosen queen almost. And he's like, not kind. Like she's ascribing motives to it that aren't there, but it's also not, not true that he did help her. Yeah, but that's so realistic of like abusive or like toxic relationships where it's like- But even then, I mean like he thinks horrible things about Eda, but in terms of what he actually outwardly does, like he's not super kind, but like he doesn't really abuse Eda ever. He's kind of just like thinks of her as a useful tool and he just treats her like an object, not a person. Yeah, but not even like in a disgusting and gross way. So much is more just like, I have purpose for you, you can hang out. Yeah, she's a puppet for him. She's a pawn, whereas like he's her, you know, she thinks of him almost like a savior. Well, so it was a intro. Yeah, and- Saul put you here for a reason and it is Saul's purpose that I help you and you're like, oh, is it? Yeah, I, mm, Wintrow, it's hard. Cause I mean, I assume that in time, if he shows up again, I'll eventually soften and like have more complicated feelings towards Wintrow. But I remember in the beginning part of Live Ship, Wintrow was so interesting to me because of his connections with religion and like how that adds a layer of nuance and interest to the world in general. Like I really like it when religion comes into fantasy novels. I like it if it's handled well. I often hate it cause it's often not handled well. Yeah, yeah. But I liked that layering in the first book and particularly, I remember for whatever reason it really stuck with me towards the end of the first book when one of the slaves he's fraying is a priest and then like that whole interaction I found to be really impactful. So anyway, I really liked Wintrow's journey up until the last book. And then I was like- But it was still well written in the last book. Oh yeah, it was still well written. I wouldn't have these emotions if it wasn't well written, right? Yeah. And I mean, we can all agree. Just Wintrow ain't no Kyle. Yeah, well, Kyle fuckin' Haven is just like utterly detestable. Like it's, I've rarely written, I've rarely read a villain I hated more than Kyle. But Kyle is also that extremely pedestrian kind of evil that like you definitely know that guy. Like he's not like a victim of like ongoing childhood trauma who's freeing slaves but it's also kind of evil. No, he's just like some guy who thinks that he's the shit because he was born a guy and you're just like, fuck off. He's trying to enslave people. He's abusive to his son. He's a misogynistic piece of shit. He's like greedy. I mean, just like literally what is Kyle's redeeming quality? If there is any person in a Robin Hobb book that is like a one-dimensional mustache rolling villain. It is Kyle. Cause like does he have any redeeming quality? No, but he's written believably because like even when he would explain why he was doing what he was doing, like, you know people who think like that that like he doesn't think, you know, how will I be evil today? Ha, ha, ha. Like he thinks like his justifications for what he's doing in his own mind and the way he twists like even when Winchrow would come bring him food and he would be chewing out Winchrow still even though he's like a captive and Winchrow was like, the fuck you want me to do dad? Like even then like the stuff that Kyle is like the way he twists things around to suit his narrative like there are people like that. Yeah, there are. And he's just so, he's so smug. Maybe that's part why I hate him. He's just so smug. See, I would agree it's not satisfying because by the time he had his comeuppance I did not care about him anymore. We had moved on. That was kind of weird, honestly. Now that I think about it. Like when he popped back in I was like, oh, you're back. Yeah, he's so central in the first book and then he really gets sidelined for the last two. Yeah, I don't know. Which like couldn't have happened when I was their guy. But yeah, like I wanted that comeuppance like at the end of Mad Ship when he finally gets his comeuppance in Little Ship of Destiny, I was like, oh yeah, I forgot about you piece of shit. I mean, good that you're taken care of. It's like I wanted him to like be hung by his, you know, wrists out in the ocean and let like sea creatures nibble away at him until he died or something. I don't know. Also, I loved like seeing the slow realization on what's Althea's sister's name? Kefria. Kefria, when Kefria realizes in his absence and it's like slowly working through her own stuff and is like, I actually like running business and I'm good at it. And he wouldn't let me even, it's not that he thought I couldn't. He wouldn't let me even if I can. What am I gonna do when he comes back? What if he doesn't come back? Would I hate that? So, I mean, because she comes like, again, not she's really different from Malta, but both Kefria and Malta in the beginning of the series, you're like, you're an enabler and you're just a conniving, scheming little selfish brat. And I hate both of you. And by the end, I kind of love Kefria and Malta. Yeah. Well, and like, again, it's different women reacting. That's part of what I love about it is that there's so many different reactions to the circumstances these women find themselves in. Like Althea is the woman who is gonna like prove she can be a woman in a man's world and like do what a man can do. Malta is the woman who's like, I'm gonna play the game and like, yes, exactly, that would have, yeah. Malta is the one who's like, I'm gonna play the game and like twist it to my own ends. Kefria is the one who's like, I'm gonna play the game because that's the only way to, you know, I can be safe and secure. You know, Amber, oh yeah, we can spoil. Amber is the fool. And the whole like gender bending-ness of that, I am obsessed with. Well, we've already had, interesting, I mean, we've mainly been talking about Liveship Chargers, but we had some gender like questioning things in, already in the Farsier trilogy with the fool. Yeah. We had that whole conversation between the fool and what was it with, who was it with, kept negging him about his privates? I don't remember, but I remember that scene. It's like in Assassin's Quest, like when they're all questing and someone keeps negging the fool about like proving that he's a guy and he's like, why do I have to prove it? Yeah, I remember that scene, but I don't remember who did, who said that. I guess I think there's three people that have said Starling, so. Starling, okay, Starling. But yeah, so we already had some stuff about that in Farsier. Yeah. Um, well, when did you realize? It was something in Mad Ship. I forget what it was. Maybe it was at the spelled, was that a Mad Ship, the spelled fingers? Something made me Google like, is Amber the, like I was like, did Amber have the same thing that the fool did? And then like, it came up and it was like, Amber is the fool. And I was like, oh, well then. Yeah, no, I didn't pick up on it until the Ship of Destiny. And I mean, yeah, when was it exactly that I thought of it? I guess there was the carving, them to look like someone they loved, that definitely made me think of it. Well, once I knew it, like I could see it a lot more. And also like the weird heat sickness, like, because the fool was seemed to be quite ill in a strange way as well, in the end of Farsier, the skill finger. Yeah. So I mean, I just, I mean, I think it was like a gradual realization. I don't think there was any one thing that made me go, aha, even at the end of Ship of Destiny, I was like, is that who that's supposed to be? But that's, I just love, I love that. Because it's such a big thing to do. But I mean, obviously my question is like, how and when did you get here? Yeah, like. How much time has passed between and that's the question I have? I don't know. I don't understand the relation of time between these two series. If it's like. It's not too long because like Fitz is gonna be around in the next trilogies somewhere. So. Well, I'm like, the fool is mortal, right? Is mortal or immortal? Mortal. Yeah, but I think mortal in a, not quite the same way that. Yeah. It's just, the mortality is just as ambiguous as the gender. I feel like I don't really understand a lot about the fool. I'm hoping that maybe in Tawnyman we understand more. About the fool and well, I don't know what is the actual name of this person? Cause like they are the fool because that's what the function they serve in Bucky. They are like hired, they are the jester. So they are the fool. But they're, they call themselves Amber in Live Ship. So what is their name? Yeah. I mean, I guess they're Amber. We can just call them Amber for now. Cause when Amber revised Malta from her connection. It's six to seven years after Farseer. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So anyway, I think that that's fascinating. And again, just in general in Live Ship. Well, I'm guessing we have some questions answered. Okay. Well, there we go. I can't wait. But I just think gender in general is really interesting in Hobb so far. And particularly I love that ambiguity that Amber has or that the fool has. Like I think that that introduces a really compelling thematic vein that I hope to be further explored. I swear not to craft on this author, but Hoid in the Cosmere is very like Allah the fool in Realm of the Elderlings. Like Hoid pops up throughout the Cosmere. Like it's one of the Easter eggs that like he pops up in all these books that connect the Cosmere. And often appears as like a court jester type person who just shows up and says interesting thought-provoking witty things. Except I don't think it's very good. So the fool to me, I'm like, now that's how you do it. Like cause everything the fool was said in Farseer every time the fool came up and said anything. I was always like, oh my God, that's so interesting and clever and also you totally snarked them and they don't know it. Like it was, I ate up everything the fool said. I love it. But that's one of those things where like, I mean, I've complained a lot and not just about like, you know, Sanderson. There's like a lot of authors and a lot of situations in books. Well, I talked about this again as like a, this is the exception, unlike where I always complain about it where like in the Jade City as well. Like there's a lot of books where the character, the author wants you to think they are clever or they are witty or they are badass or they are something. And like they write a scene where like, this is supposed to be a demonstration of that. And I better agree. Cause otherwise this all falls apart because this hit scene hinges on you being like, how clever was that? Or like, how badass was that? And if I don't think the way that I'm like, well, if that was supposed to be it, it wasn't. So the fool, I'm like, oh, you are intriguing. Like the people talk about you being mysterious. You are mysterious as heck. And I want to know more. And the same was like, you know, Jade City, like I think Helo is really badass. And I think that Nopeak Clan is badass. So when they're doing stuff, I'm just like, oh no, they didn't. Like I'm into it. There's plenty of books where like they try to do that. And I'm just like, nope. Well, it's subjective. Like I feel like some of those sort of like wittiness is kind of in the same line as humor, which is like one, one person's wit is another person's not wit, dull observation. I don't know what the opposite of that is. But yeah, I agree. I definitely feel like the fool is so snarky. They are such a sassy little bitch, which I love. Yeah, so I think for me, I totally agree. But also not just them being snarky. Like there is just, I don't know, all the time. And I think I got this more and farce here, this feeling, which is my PY, I might slightly like it more. There's just this sense of like old and missing depths of knowledge that is unplumbed, where like there's constantly scratching the tip of the iceberg, where there's like a thing that's thrown out that like, what is that? And we don't follow it up and we don't know where it came from and we don't know what it is. And the fool is constantly like, can you look at those scrolls please? And he's like, I'm too depressed later. And you're like, no, but what is that though? And like there's just so much mystery about where things have come from and what they mean that I really feel like there's a ton there. It's not this one of those like, oh, you're teasing a stupid mystery. Like I feel like there's so much that there's gotta be there. And like, how did it all get so lost? Because then also, so what we were alluding to earlier is that at the end of Assassin's Quest, there's this whole like carving of the dragons and then the dragon, you know, like you forge them and pour yourself your like life essence into one of them. And at first it's like, well, is this what the dragons are? And then we find out that like that kind of carries through with the wizard wood. And then we find out that there's actual dragons. And I don't know, I just, I love the sort of like it keeps getting, we keep finding out more and more. There's a kind of purposeful disorientation. It's called the realm of the elderlings for a reason. Yeah. Well, but it's purposeful disorientation. But I really love that in a book if an author can make me feel like they know where they're going and that we'll find out. And I definitely feel that way in these books of like, I don't totally understand what's happening, but I'm just gonna roll with it because I assume eventually you'll explain this. Yeah. Well, it also, I mean, it definitely gives you that sense of what makes me feel real just because like we nowadays, you know, through archeology and whatever, we're trying to piece together who people were and what they were up to. And we think we kind of might know and we're not totally sure, but you know, we get better and better every day with, you know, carbon dating and guessing and whatever. So the sense that like, it's not just like, we lost the scroll that tells us all of the exposition. It's still like, it makes sense that over time as things died or got lost or people mythicized that rumors get started and things get vilified and skills are lost and times change that like over all this time, there would be layer after layer of misinformation that I have to get through to actually figure out the source of everything. Yeah. Yeah. It feels very, Oh my gosh, I bet. Well, and it's, I don't know. I'll be really, it will be very interesting by the time we get to the end of the series, like how much we actually know versus how much we don't. Yeah. We're gonna be at the end of the series like, I thought I was gonna get answers. Where are the answers? Where are these elderlings? Yeah. I don't know. It's so good. It's just so good. That's the bottom line. And I mean, there's so, we haven't even talked about like this, the themes around like enslavement and duty and honor versus like what's good for you and I don't know, connections with nature and like manipulating the natural world for your own ends and how that can like bite you in the ass. Like, I don't know. I just feel like thematically there's so much going on in these books. Well, I mean, almost anything, pretty well, yeah, I can't think of anything that's not this way. Every thing she introduces, a character, a theme, a magic, a place, a tradition, a plot point, every single thing is always complicated. Like it's never, this is a- Except for Kyle Hayden. Coffee is the only uncomplicated character we get. Like as Regal. Yeah, that's true. But even then, I mean, they're written three-dimensionally but I mean like the way that the wit works and the way that people vilify it and the way that questions of, is it right to do it? Is it wrong to do it? What does it mean to do it? The skilling about how like using the skill is addicting and yet they feel like it's necessary and that it's used against them ultimately. So it was all for nothing kind of because if you hadn't been doing it, like that's what got you in trouble in the first place. And like the live ships, we think of Althea and some of the older trader families as like these are the good guys because they know how to have a live ship and to treat it right and to treat them right. And you're like- But is the live ship- Oh, but also- Oh, yikes. Yeah, the live ship itself is unethical and like a form of enslavement. And then like we have the actual like more direct enslavement coming to Bingtown and- I feel like it's clever to like make us the reader basically feel like complicit and just as guilty because we were like, yeah. You know, like Althea and Greg like those are good live ship owners and yeah, that's how it should be done. So I feel like a second hand like guilt when we find out that, oh, we shouldn't have been making live ships in the first place and I was rooting for the people that own live ships. Uh-oh. Awkward. Yeah. Yeah, it's also so multi-layered and I don't know, I just love it. Oh, I think we have to read the willful princess and the five old prince before Tawnyman. Oh, okay. I know, I think Bethany's read that. It's a novel. Yeah, she liked that. Yeah, I guess, I guess we can sneak that in. I'll have to order it. I was just looking at the pretty edition of it last night. So I guess I could do that. It's a sign. I guess I could, you know, suffer to purchase another beautiful Hobb book. But okay, we have those gorgeous illustrated editions of the Farsier Trilogy. Can we get all 16, please? Well, I don't know, what is the plan there? I haven't heard that they're doing it. I haven't heard that they're not doing it, but... I'm hoping they at least do live ships. I really would like a mad ship one. Well, we're, is it like an anniversary thing? So they'll do it when it hits whatever anniversary it is. Oh, maybe. When did they come out? I don't even remember now. Obviously Farsier came out first. Let's see here. Well, please. Well, let's tweet Google. Okay, mad ship came out in 2008, or no, sorry, in 1999. So we got a hot minute for waiting for the anniversary. We got like seven years. But what anniversary? I don't know. It's a good point. If it's Farsier's 95. Oh, okay. So I don't know. That was just a mean... I guess, I don't know that that's why. Oh, I don't know also how successfully they sold the illustrated Farsier's. Like that would be basically probably the deciding factor. Yeah, Alex talked me into buying Royal Assassin since that was definitely my favorite of the original trilogy. Oh, I have. I have all three. Of course you do. But I would happily buy, I would love to buy a copy of Mad Ship. In that same edition. Illustrated, yeah. Yeah. And I would love it to be the same artist again. Yeah, the illustrations are beautiful. Yeah, and the paper, I enjoy the paperbacks though, they're very pretty. Although again, it would be nice to have some, a full set of nice hardbacks. Oh, yeah. For a matching set someday. I mean, she's not as overlooked as Jemisin in terms of special editions, but, you know. Well, you can get Folio Society did Farsier. I don't really like the Folios though. I don't like them that much. Like they're not awful, but. I haven't seen it. But they're just like red-collar. Yeah, they're like red-collar. Folio Society makes, I mean, just the quality is really nice in terms of standing the test of time. Yeah, I mean, it's physical materials, but like they're not aesthetically like that impressive. No, no. The only Folio Society I have is a Marple short story collection that somebody gave me. The only Folio Society I have is American Gods. Surprise! I'm praying for both of us. Like if anyone had to guess what Folios you and I had. Yeah. Well, I mean, if there is an Abercrombie, obviously. But there isn't, so. Not yet. But he did write, I have a crombie wrote the intro for one of the Folio Song of Mice and Fire books. I didn't realize Folio did those. They will. I don't think they've done them all yet. I think they did the first two, and now maybe three. They're also waiting for the rest of the books to come out before they come out. I mean, they haven't done all five that are out yet, I don't think. That's what I mean. They're not gonna keep going until they get some proof of life. Oh, if people will buy them, yes they will. Yeah, that's true. Oh, that's true. So Jimmy is coming on tomorrow? Yeah, comparing. You could do a comparison. Abercrombie, Martin, and Hobb. I've already started bringing them all into it tonight. That's why that happened. But I do think, I mean, there is, especially because Rob and Hobb and George are Martin, are friends, then. There's a lot of overlap up there. Yeah. Yeah, there are, yeah. I enjoyed A Game of Thrones, but not enough to keep going in a series that I didn't have confidence was gonna be completed. Yeah, so if they're being such close friends, it's unfortunate that he didn't steal from her. Her ability to finish. Her ability to finish series. Yeah, also, I've already read more from Hobb than from George R. R. Martin, because there's, well, I guess, or the same because I read the trio of short stories also. So technically six books. So I've read six books from both of them, I guess. Yeah. Do you think that this would make a good adaptation, Realm of the Elderlings? It would really depend, because I mean, like, I wouldn't have thought that you could do A Son of Wison Fire as well as they initially did. I mean, it went off the rails, but like, initially, it was an intensely loyal adaptation that really captured the breadth and expansiveness and cultural diversity and magical weirdness of that world. And it had the budget and commitment of a big name like HBO to like pull out all the stops and do everything you needed to do, be it like the cast and the music and the CGI and the costumes and the locations to like make that come to life. So like, I think it's possible. Like, I think it could be adapted really beautifully, but I think odds would be against it going well. Like it would have to be someone big with the commitment and budget and passion to do it right. Yeah. I mean, because I think it would also be varied, especially Farsier, you'd have to have really good actors because so much of it is driven by the character. That's one of the things that might be like a positive for a network looking at it is because like you could try out adapting Farsier and that goes well, then you can also do live ships and then you can also do like, because it is split up that way, then you can like, and you can even have them running simultaneously, I guess, like if you want it to be like, we have a piratey show and we also have like a one in a castle and we have some variety. Yeah, the hobverse. And we do love interconnected universes. Ever since Marvel did it. Yeah. I mean, I just, I wonder, like I think you could probably do a bit at a position. You might end up at a position. But I just feel like you would have to, I think the acting would have to be really on point for the Farsier trilogy, like you'd have to really pony up or like, or that implies that good actors are also the most expensive ones, which is certainly not the case. You would have to do some like real work in the casting, I think, to make sure you had. Well, and I mean, just as I said, if anyone else wrote it, it'd be dumb and also like, it'd be really difficult to not make a dumb on screen if it's talking to night eyes. Like, that could go really badly. That could go really, really badly. I'm imagining those like horrible werewolves from the Twilight saga, like the CGI, like. Or like the old Dune movie with them using like the voiceovers of their thoughts in Dune. Yeah. I wonder, yeah. I wonder if you could find some sort of like visualization metaphor. But I mean, even so fits, I mean, fits in Farsier, fits in Farsier, fits in Night Eyes would be the most potentially stupid in adaptation. But the talking ships also could be very Thomas the Tank engine in a crappy adaptation. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you had the budget to make it really cool, it could be really epic and cool, but it could be really dumb. Yeah. I think it'd be very execution dependent. That's what I'm like. I don't know. Have you ever read anything, Mylena Taylor? Not yet. Because like both her series and just the whole how, the way she writes is just so like bursting with like elaborate imagery that is very cool to read about. But and so like it would be cool on the like to see it on screen because there's just like so much like going on and to see that come to life would be amazing. But also it could easily be so stupid looking if like it was done at all in a way that was like missing the budget or like missing the creative vision. I'd be like, I would love the feast for the eyes that would be at Lady Taylor adaptation, but also the odds of it going badly are too high for me to really want it. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's what's hard is that for some of these fantastical property, I mean sci-fi too, like you've got to kind of pony up on some of that stuff or else it just looks dumb. So I mean, obviously Timothy Chalamet would play Wintrow. Oh my gosh. Yes. He would be a great Wintrow. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I feel like, well, maybe just cause I love little women, but now I'm like, Sir Charonan and Florence Pugh should be in here somewhere. Like I can see Florence Pugh being a very good Malta. Actually, I was thinking Ketrican. Oh, actually either of them could play Ketrican. I mean, Florence Pugh could be in it. I mean, and then Sir Charonan also could easily play Ketrican. Yeah. I'm just using basically the cast of little women. I'm like, Laura Duran can be Kefria. Yeah. I mean, they're all good. I mean, maybe not Emma Watson. I don't really see her in a leadership. No, I got a bless her, but I don't I don't think Emma was like the strong point of that particular adaptation. Not the weakest point, but also oddly, I don't remember his name now, but like the ginger fellow who plays Emma Watson's husband in Little Women. He's also like in Grandchester is kind of how I pictured Greg. Yeah, I could see that. Basically, just a little we just will will make an adaptation of flagship only using the people who has been little women. So who's going to play Kyle? Um, I don't know. There's not enough men in this. Random newspaper guy. Random dude at the boarding house. I was like, who's face do I want to punch? I guess it was Kyle. Yeah, I feel like on a more serious note, like. He's too like handsome and like charismatic, though. Well, I mean, I feel like Kyle is sort of like a wolf in sheep's clothing, right? I guess I just feel like he should also He's not charming. Do you see Death on the Nile? He is so uncharming. Yeah, but he has the capacity to be quite charming. That's me. I remember he's got like I never been impressed with him in a movie. He's always very pretty to look at, but. I guess I mostly really liked him in The Man for Monkey. I don't think I saw that. OK, well, I liked him. But anyway, let's not give him any money. So let's not cast him. Also, OK, having Army Hammer play Kyle if Winchrow is played by Timothy Chalamet. Well, it said we could age him up. You put, you know, give him some aging makeup. That's not why I was thinking because of the movie they were also in together. What movie are they in together? Call. What's it called? Oh, cancel the sequel for it because of call me by your name. That's the one he's in. I didn't know he was in that. I never saw that movie. Yep. Is he the is he Timothy Chalamet's lover? I totally did not know that. So that's why I was like him as Kyle and Timothy Chalamet as Winchrow. That would have to be kind of great, though, right? Like, wouldn't that add a layer of just like ick and like, oh, I don't know. Do we need more layers of ick and life? Probably not. But but so the person who actually, I think Army Hammer would be better to play Kenneth. Oh, 100 percent. Yeah. Yeah, very that. Because he can be this like charismatic leader type, but also be a piece of shit. Yeah. Yeah. That that would be good casting. I feel like I have to do it for free, though, as a part of his retribution or his reparations to society. I don't know how old is Malta? I feel like she's quite young. She's like 14. Yeah, I think. Right. That sounds right. She's like just like verging on woman because it doesn't she like start get menstruating for the first time in the series? Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, she's like newly. Yeah, but also don't give him a job. Yeah, she's only 13 at the start. Yeah, so we need to find a young lass. Who's I don't know. I think maybe this is a case where we actually we age the character up a little bit just so that we don't visually have to see. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I still feel like, you know, the actress should like be kind of doughied and like give kind of young vibes. Yeah. Fresh based. Yeah. Kind of like Timothy Chalamet is actually like approaching 30. Chalamet can potentially play a 15 year old. Yes. I mean, honestly, like him playing Polatranity is like I was like, OK, he is technically probably not that far off from the age of the guy that played Paul in the old movie, who looked like he was way too old to play Paul. But but Timothy looks super young, so it works. He's something they will become the new Paul Rudd, where it's like when people talk about how like 30 year olds playing high school kids like doesn't work in shows and movies. I'm like, unless it's Timothy Chalamet, because he could play a middle schooler and I'd be like, yeah, checks out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's also just I don't know. Again, I've been rewatching Scream and just watching the difference between how the cast, the age of the cast in the 90s version versus the now. Are they younger now? Yeah, I feel like we've gotten read as teens, I think a little more convincingly. It's obviously I mean, it's still not quite actually like whenever I remember entering high school and be like, this doesn't look like how high school looks in film and television. I wonder if we start looking like adults thought this was now. All these people look like they have, you know, like a house and two children. Yeah. Especially I mean, in Greece, it's like one of the absolute worst defenders. Oh, my gosh, Knicki, who looks like a literal 40 year old. John Travolta is the only one that kind of looks the age he's supposed to be. And I think he was the youngest in the cast. He was only like early 20s. Olivia Newton John looks young, but I would say not like teenager. She was 10 years older than John Travolta. Yeah, I mean, Sheila, I think she could pull off like 20s. Like, I believe her as like a college kid. But for like him being the one corrupting her because he's the experienced man of the world ish man of the high school. Yeah, but Knicki and what's his face from the other school? Both of them look like they have children in high school themselves. Oh, yeah. We haven't talked about like the rain wilders at all. Oh. Yeah. Well, I mean, to that, I really like that whole bit. Like I mean, I know people don't like the rain wild chronicles as much, but I'm excited for it because I really liked that bit. So. And I mean, I said I didn't ship Althea and Brashen, and I still don't, but Malta and Rain. Yeah, when I love that, which I felt icky about it first when it was like this like contractual thing. And he's like, she understands, she understands what's going on. And everyone's like, she's a kid. She does not understand. He's like, no, she understands. And at first I was like, does she though get away creeper? And then I was like, actually, she does. And I like you together. And this is. Yeah, I feel like they they found each other. They they're well, they're well matched. Yeah. And I mean, it was kind of Disney, but like the moment where like she really sees his face and he sees her scar and they both have a moment of like, you think I'm ugly. You don't think I'm ugly. Well, I love I'm a fucking sucker for that. I mean, I love Beauty and the Beast type stories. So I'm just like, yes. And also love monster romance and general or alien romances. So yeah, I'm all for that. You like radiance. You're into that. Yeah, although radiance, I guess it is kind of a like, oh, you do find me attractive. But like, they mostly still nag each other. Their appearances, which is why I like. Like, I think her pet name for him is like her handsome eel. You know, I mean, I'm the person who thinks that the Beast is handsomer before he turns from like a dog man into a human. So I think most people get it. However, I may change your mind right now because I did. I used to think that when I was a kid, but when I grew up, I realized that like, if I was to like live cast, like an actor who looks like this cartoon man, he looks like Tom Hardy. I don't think so. I disagree. He's too pretty. That's part of the problem. Tom Hardy is very pretty, though. It's only because they rough him up. Tom Hardy was like, hmm. Have you seen young Tom Hardy? It looks exactly like the prince. And I don't know that I've seen young Paul, please. And he's even in Marie Antoinette with like that, like curled ponytail hairdo. So it's like literally that Tom Hardy. That's Tom Hardy. Yeah. OK. I mean, I don't know that I think he looks exactly like human beast, but I see where you're going. Plus, his wife looks a little bit like she could play Belle. So I would love to see Tom Hardy and Charlotte Riley play Belle and the Beast. That would be my ideal for getting him along. Such range of beauty. He's just a beautiful human. He really is. Like, I'm looking at this compared like this side by side. And I'm like both like it's like Marie Antoinette. They haven't owned a look that is bad. Yeah, he just it's like every every flavor works. Well, he played also like the young innocent and in love when he was in Cold It's, which is like a world war two. He's a prisoner of war true story when he's trying to escape to get back to the girl he loves. He's played by Sophia Miles and he like gets some guy to sketch her picture because he can remember her face so well that he can describe it to the guy so he can have her picture while he's prisoner of war. That is disgusting. I hate that. So who's Tom Hardy play in the realm of the Elderlings? He could play Burrage. Yeah, apparently Burrage can get it. And if it's played by Tom Hardy, I'm like, yeah, I believe it. Yeah, I believe that too. Apparently, he knows what he's doing. He often plays this sort of like gruff, silent type where you could believe because he often like doesn't really want to talk to like he doesn't want to explain things like isn't super like he loves you. But he's not really going to say it kind of. Yeah, I'm. Yeah, but he totally like bear hug fits. Yeah, well, and apparently he knows what he's doing in the sack. So also just given how much Tom Hardy loves dogs, he would love to be on set with dogs. Yeah, exactly. Basically, we're just plugging in actors. We do or don't enjoy. I plug Tom Hardy in finding a role cast. There's there's a big enough cast here that you really can find something for everyone. So I love Aiden Turner and I love him. But I don't picture him as Burrage. I am happy to see him. I would picture Aiden Turner as one of the print as either regal or as Verity. I'd say Verity just. I mean, because I like him, but he also plays villains quite well. So he could play. He does. But yeah, Verity. Yeah. Like, I can picture him like skilling with the brode brow. But do I think that he and Timothy Chalamet could be related? Are we say Timothy Chalamet is Fitz? Is that what we said? I forget who we said he. Wintrow. Oh, Wintrow. OK, that's right. He could play Fitz, I guess, except like Fitz is quite dark. Yeah. So I don't think Timothy Chalamet is consumptive pale milk boy. So that's oh, in fact. Oh, gosh, OK. My cats are about to tear my office apart. So I may have to start popping off here to their toy run out of batteries. It did. They did. Aiden Turner looks like he belongs on a boat. I mean, kind of. Aiden Turner looks like he belongs. He could play Brashen that I might actually ship that. Yeah, there you go. I'd be like, OK, no, I see it. See it. That's a happy ending. I see it. That's the danger when you have really good looking actors or actresses and they're like, it does just automatically introduce, like, are they going to get together? Because it's like, if Aiden Turner was around. Well, basically, I mean, try to be getting together watching Poledark. I was like, I hate you, but I still want you to end up together because you're Aiden Turner. Yeah. Thank you. Others on Others Island. Do I remember what that is? I was hoping you did. Is that where she who must not be named or whatever? What was her name? She remembers. She remembers. There you go. Is that where she was? Possibly. I don't remember. Sorry. So our opinion on it is. We'll get back to you on that. So she who remembers is not us. We are she's who do not remember. Let me tell you, she who remembers ain't Mara because this is one of my biggest struggles in long running fantasy series is that I'm like, I don't remember. The crick I beat. I need like a recap at the beginning of every book just to reorient me on what the. Beginning of Live Ships M on the Treasure Beach and Yes, we're. Yes. OK, there you go. I don't remember the beginning of the very first book. If that's where we first see it, like don't don't not remember that. I believe we need to remember it. Maybe we should go back and read that chapter at some point, maybe before we get around. Wild or something. But I mean, I obviously remember the part where Wintrow frees her. Yeah, I remember that. Hard to forget that considering all the aftermath. Yeah, I mean, in general, I mean, well, we kind of talked about this in our chat or like our, you know, buddy reading chat about just how, like, hard it was to understand what was going on with the serpents. Yeah, all of the time. It was like, yeah, so that was a thing. That's the things I understand. I assume that the serpents were dragons before we knew that they were dragons, but that's just because I'm bad at fantasy world imagining. So like, sometimes I accidentally get things right just because I've misunderstood the story and I'm just like, oh, OK, that was supposed to be a reveal. I was just assuming that that's my bad. Yeah, I mean, I kind of was. Yeah, I was either they are the they are dragons or that it's like the water version, like their cousins, you know, like the way the dogs and wolves and. Yeah, exactly. They're like a variant of the same sea dragon and maybe they can't fly. But like, it's another kind of dragon. I didn't necessarily connect that they would fly eventually. But yeah, I didn't skim it, but I was mostly like, I hope that makes sense to me at some point. Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty good at just like, yeah, I'm pretty good at like just rolling with things that I don't understand in general. And yeah, this is why I'm good at languages and at math. I don't have to understand how it works. If somebody just tells me that's how it works, I'll believe them. So I think I'm OK with it if I get the sense that like I'm not supposed to yet understand this. But if it's like really complicated and you're like, I'm supposed to be piecing together something on my own here and that this is nothing further will be explained, I'm supposed to piece it together off of this. I'm like, but if it's just like kind of amorphous, and I'm like, OK, like I think being confused is the point. So I will just like remember for later, hopefully. Yeah. Oh my gosh. OK, my cats really are. Hey, it's a turtle struggle. OK, we've been going almost two hours. So in summation, Hob is amazing. We're excited for Tony man and wait for Tony man. We'll have to. I don't know. I guess we can do like a follow up after we get through Tony man. Yeah, especially I think we kind of spent most of our time talking about live chips. And I feel like Tony man is going to bring us back a little to far see your questions. Yeah, for sure. And then rain, while we're back live ship questions. And we also we read live ship more recently, so it's like pressure on the mind. But I mean, I wait, do we read rain, wild after Tony man is at the order? Yes, it's like not fits, fits, not fits. I was going to say, I feel like it's like that flip flopping where like, because Tony man is clearly going to circle back to far seer and then rain, wild is going to circle to live ship because I hope so. I will also say, I am trying to hold the door open to have some of my opinions on characters revised if we see them again. There isn't anyone whose opinion you need revised for far seer. Right. For far seer. No. No, I am very excited to find out what the fuck happened with Molly and Burke and like. Actually, there were a few times in live ship. And I was like, if I thought I was supposed to be guessing something, I think I thought Amber might be like Molly is kid or something. But then I was like, wait, was their kid up? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're going to especially like if she was supposed to look like fits or something like that. I was like, well, if they're really hidden. But that wasn't. Oh, I mean, that says two kids at this point, we know of. He's got Molly's kid doesn't. And then Ketrican's kid is biologically, which I mean, you and I talked about this in our chat, but we didn't talk about it tonight. And I think if we're trying to wrap up now, it's not a good time to start it. But like about just parentage, not being a thing of blood. Yeah. That's a big recurring theme. Yeah. Almost makes me wonder, like, if that's like a personal thing with Hobb. I don't know. You know, like from her, like personal life. Yeah, it could be. I mean, yeah, it's definitely. Just because you donated the sperm does not we probably do. I just don't remember what it's a girl. Of the kid is. I know that it's a I know the Molly's kid is a girl, right? Or maybe somebody just told me that. I mean, like that sounds true. But if you told me it was a boy, I'd be like, probably don't remember. Nettle. OK, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where I was. I think it's the earring that made me think it might be Molly's kid. Because I was like, Birch is the now adopted dad. So yeah. Well, and it took me when I first heard that I was like, he's too old for her. And then I remembered like, oh, wait, he was like 20 when Fitz was. I mean, it's still like two. It's like a Rochester Jane's situation. But it's like it's not like a 16 and 60. But it's also because he's a father figure to Fitz, then it's like. Yeah, it means he's a he's a daddy. Different kind of daddy. Yeah, but I mean, I still like Birch. I do. I feel like Molly deserved. I mean, I feel like Molly and Althea deserve better. Well, yeah, but I didn't like Molly as much as I was in the sector. I feel like we never got to see Molly's perspective. It was always what Fitz saw in her. And that is very true. Also, Molly got got sexed by a night eyes. Yeah. Oh, God. I forgot about that. Yeah, that's not great. Yeah, I actually feel like Molly kind of has a happy ending right now, which is that she's got like a good man who's her husband. And I mean, it's been seven years. We don't really know. Yeah, hopefully she'll be left alone to raise nettle with Burke in peace and have whatever other little kids are going to have. But this time actually, Birch. This time it can be actually, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm imagining that he was like 20 when Fitz comes on the scene and Fitz was like five or six, right? He's just whatever age Tom already is. There you go. There you go. All right. Well, I need to skedap before my cats destroy my entire office. I've been in I because of my autoimmune disease, I try to spend one day a week in bed ish, like for most of the day. And the cats get very spoiled on that day and they don't enjoy me rising from the bed. After that, they're like, excuse me, we were snuggling all day. What are you doing? So funny because Kaz is like really pissed that I spent three days in bed. She's like, hey, attention, play, move around, do things. Well, but you're her only playmate. They have each other to play with. True. So I'm for snuggling. She's just napping now. Yeah. So I guess we're going to add piebald to our TBR, but it's pretty short. Yes, I'll go ahead and grab a copy. And then in terms of, I guess, Tawny Man, we're going every other month, that'll be April, June, like maybe sometime. We'll do a live stream sometime in September, I guess, for Tawny Man. Yeah. Yeah, Tawny Man versus Farsi or versus a live show. We'll see which things it makes us think of and then decide. It's still a dum-dum or has he grown up? That'll be our main question. Also night eyes, hopefully is still. Oh my gosh, I hope. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, though, because we are pack. That's for life. Well, but I just he may have just died. Because he's an animal. But it's only been seven years. I thought it was well, it's only between that and live show. But I thought he's like middle age by the time. Tawny Man rolls around. Am I wrong? Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. We'll find out. No, I mean, I forgot that, like, yeah, I mean, a lot of more years past during Farsi or then during live shows. So like between when Fitz meets night eyes and the end of Farsi or it's been a few years, it's been a few years. But he's still like, I think he's I mean, he'd be an old dog, but he's still the not definitely dead seven years on. I'm just saying. Oh, no. Yeah, he's like, he might be dead ready for this. But then again, picking up any hobbook, I don't know why I'm acting like I'm expecting to be not to be too attached to anyone because you just, you know, you know, how she does. I do, especially if it's Fitz, we're going back to it's going to be rough. Yeah. What can she do to him now? Oh, also good advice, I guess I haven't, but I didn't plan to. But for anyone else, don't read the summaries. Yeah, I don't read them. I just read whatever the book is next without trying to have too many expectations, especially if it's like a series that I'm already like, it's not a new book I'm trying to decide to read. So like, I don't it doesn't matter what it's about. I'm reading it. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I'm going to keep reading. So we'll see. Yeah. Well, we'll hold all our kitties close and they'll get us through the emotional trauma that is definitely in store. She hurts so good. I know they'll lick our tears away. Yeah, I think it's I guess also in the non-spoiler section, we sort of just said you have to be a little bit a masochist to read. Yeah, you got to be willing to to feel the burn. So much pain. Yeah, but it's good. It angsts so good. It does, but we're masochists. We would say that. Thank you for being my co-pilot. I feel like it's good having the. Yeah, somebody to talk about these things with as we go. And it's good like to have like a consistent buddy for the series, because like the questions and feelings that arise are like, we're going on our own quest, our long slogging quest. Yeah, it's like in 20 years from now, if we don't talk for whatever reason, we know this will have always done this together. Yeah, yeah. And I'll always think of you when I cry over these books. Like a war, like your war buddy. Remember, we were in the trenches together. I mean, Barcie, you're who does feel like emotional trenches. Well, thanks everyone for joining us. Yeah, chat's been lovely, lively and more knowledgeable than us. Like this is definitely a time where I feel like answering our questions. What business do we have? Talking about this when everyone in chat is like, wait till they find out. Yeah. So I think we entertained with our ignorance. Yeah. Well, everybody gives Liana a like before you go. You have to, because Mara said. I tried to kind of hype you up, girl. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll see you. Well, I'll see you next month for these books and for. Well, for we have book club next month. Oh, yeah, we have a book club next month. That's true. Lady, ladies guide. Ladies guide to mischief and mayhem by Manda Collins. And my friend Heather was telling me today that she was listening to the audiobook and is really, really enjoying it. So that goes well. I hope we all enjoy it. I've read from Manda Collins before. I liked it. I have not. So I'd have no idea. I'll see. Oh, yeah. Have a good night, everybody. Night, guys.