 and welcome to the 3.30 session of the 2020 Open Simulator Community Conference. In this session, we are happy to introduce a session called The Creativity Panel. Our host is Maria Koroloff, and she is joined by her federal panelists, Lisa Laxton and Mike Laurie. Maria Koroloff is a published author and covers artificial intelligence for CIO Magazine and cybersecurity for CSO Online. She's also the editor of Hypergrade Business since 2009. During her 20 years as a journalist, she's run a business news bureau in Shanghai, covered wars in the former Soviet Union, and wrote about local politics for the Chicago Tribune. Lisa Laxton is the research and development visionary and CEO of Open Simulator Community, focused foundation called Infinite Metaverse Alliance, She is also the president of Laxton Consulting LLC with experience in providing various virtual world technology solutions for education, research, business, and defense clients. Mike Laurie is a versatile entrepreneur with extensive virtual world, virtual finance, management, and IT experience. He built one of the top 25 virtual reality development companies in Second Life in 2006 with less than $200 in startup capital, reaching a quarter million dollars in annual revenues in less than a year and providing the first virtual stock exchanges. Please check out the website located at conference.opensimulator.org for speaker bios, details of the sessions, and the full schedule of events. Now this session is being streamed, live streamed and recorded, so if you have questions or comments during the session, you may send tweets to at OpenSimCC with the hashtag OSCC20. And welcome everyone, let's begin the session. Thank you for that introduction. Hi everybody, this is me again, for those of you who are here for the panel earlier today about the hypergrid. Today we're gonna talk about creativity in OpenSim and we've got two very highly creative people here on the stage with me today. Now OpenSim is a great place for creativity. The land costs are low or free and hypergrid travel means that you can have a home-based region that you can build on to your heart's content and invite people from all over the universe to come and visit it, which is really, really cool and fantastic for creators. And there are also lots of grids that are out there that focus on creativity and the arts and everything else. Before we get to all that, we're gonna be discussing these topics later on. First, I wanna ask Lisa Laxton to talk a little bit about her work as a consultant and her work for the Infinite Metaverse Alliance. And she works with education, business, research and defense clients and building projects. And so she's interested in collaborating to advance virtual world technology and improve accessibility. And her latest project is the Magnolia Gardens of Knowledge. So Lisa, can you talk to us about what you're working on these days? Sure, thank you, Maria. And thank you, Lear and Mike and everyone here at the conference. I see Terrence out in the audience. Welcome to OpenSim. I hope everybody is staying safe and healthy. First, what is Magnolia Gardens of Knowledge? Let me talk about that. My mother, one of the original founders of IMA who loves to garden had a vision where users would be able to learn about plants and flowers in a virtual world. This inspired me to design Magnolia Gardens of Knowledge and it is dedicated to her. But I took the design quite a bit further. So that not only could users do that but could also learn to use the viewer if they are a new user to interact with digital teaching assistants that I call Ditas. These are NPCs when an educator is not available and experience a live interactive virtual garden with task oriented attendant NPCs. And I'll talk more about that. I wanted to find a creative way to provide a demonstration of how educators could use virtual world to teach non-virtual world skills in just about any topic. So I proposed a design to some of the IMA community as an IMA community project and for some help. To accomplish this, we decided to use new avatars for the NPCs and the open source setter farm project. We had many flowers and plants to make so it became a team effort where others helped build the objects. You'll see some of the images from Magnolia Gardens on the screen behind me. And we also needed to create the garden scape and the new avatars that we would be using. So I want to give great thanks and a shout out to Rosa, Alexi, Timberwolf and Joe Quirian for their help on this project. So what makes this project different from other gardens that you can find in OpenSem? Yeah, that's a good question. What makes it unique? I've got a long answer for that, so bear with me. This is a demonstration of using OpenSem affordances or DITOS to provide introductory learning about any topic with concrete visible parts. It introduces the parts here, garden plants, showing 3D images of them in a typical location which is situated learning. The garden shows a virtual place can be set up to introduce the subject. Almost any course of instruction begins with at least one unit about the parts. The learner should be able to name any instance of an important part and should be able to find instances of a part when given the name. If the part has normal locations, the learner should initially seek instances there, but the locations could change and we did that intentionally. The four DITOS interactively teach users about the basics of using the scene gate viewer, which is an IMA project and to interact with the virtual world while learning real world processes associated with harvested garden items as an example use case. These were developed using first generation adaptive AI. Each user experience is different because they have many paths of learning that they can follow when they interact with the DITOS. Adaptive AI is more than just a chat bot, but it has a limit of permutations based on the number of choices that the users have. This is well suited for self-paced learning, which was behind the design. The next generation research will integrate DITOS with an external AMO server. For those who don't know what that is, that's artificial intelligence markup language to add intelligence to the DITOS. So DITOS 1 right now teaches the basics of navigation and camera zoom. DITOS 2 teaches sitting, working with your AO, how to use your sound controls and your camera tools. DITOS 3 teaches advanced object interaction with a real world process simulation. And DITOS 4 teaches the user how to get and attach a wearable rod to go fishing from inventory and to use voice. So we had a fun time when the virtual world MOOC folks came to visit last year. I believe we had one user who found out she lost her fish because she was too far away from the fish bucket when she caught it. Now more DITOS are planned for advanced social skills. New users need to learn like buying and wearing clothes, using a HUD, driving vehicles and dancing. These are things that most of us really take for granted because we've been in virtual world for quite some time. Now you mentioned that you also stimulate some real world processes in this garden. Are they biological processes or more? And are they interactive with the people who come and visit? Well, first we have to talk about the interactivity and then we can talk about the process. There are five task oriented NPCs. You may recognize some of these from the set of farm project in terms of what they do, even though we made new NPCs for that purpose. What's different about them versus the regular set of farm NPCs is each of these have their own specialty. Their custom program to tend the garden objects in different ways and this has been adapted from that project. Our 2D2 tends to crops. Azalea tends to flowers and plants. Anemone tends to the animals. Antonio tends to the trees. Anarmin is learning to tend to the grounds. The items chosen by the NPCs to plant and harvest are randomized. The planted items are not identified in text like they are with the standard set of farm items. This forces the learner to learn about the plants near the entrance that are linked to authoritative webpages from the National Gardening Association. Learners can do the same things the attendant NPCs can do if they're not wearing a group tag because the garden does not belong to a group unlike the standard set of farms. So users or learners can learn from the NPCs and by doing. And so this is about the real world simulations, not just the things you learned about open sim but about actual world stuff. Right, now we take that a step further into an actual process simulation. The user enters the Magnolia Gardens in a cave with buildings on each side. Now one side of the building has what I call advanced tools. These interactive objects emulate items like a sun jar, cooktop, juice press, a dehydrator, a fine grinder, an infuser, cold storage, dry storage and of course water sources. Some of these items don't exist in the Satter Farm Project objects. So we created those and then provided the scripting behind them. On the wall, there's a map of these tools along with a tutorial and a process flow chart. So learners can follow the written tutorial to learn to make apple cider or they can interact with D2-3 to learn about and how to make essential oils. And this is based on real-world information. So not all the ingredients needed for the different recipes are contained in the cold and dry storage. To get some ingredient, you need to learn to make them by following the extraction processes. So a new user is actually engaged in a real-world simulation but they're also learning to work with the objects interactively. With this type of self-paced learning, users gain knowledge and skills for both virtual and non-virtual worlds. So some learning principles include social learning, situated learning, spatial memory, concept maps and road maps. It's likely we will spin off similar projects for other topics, including role play. So this is a work in progress. All right, now if people wanna visit the hyper-good address is up on the screen and I'm gonna post it in text chat below. Are there any other places that people can go to, to find this work that you're working on? Well, to visit Magnolia Gardens, right now we have the fully interactive MPC Sim is over in the development region that is accessible but if they visit the Magnolia Gardens that's contained in IMA Outpost Alpha, they can interact with all of the Ditas and that gives them a really a good start. They can also interact with the garden plants but the MPCs that are attending the garden are not active right now. They will be very soon. Very cool. We'll be updating that after we finish a little bit more testing of some customizing that I've been doing. Now there is a video of the full interaction here at this link that I posted in chat. That is part of our playlist from the IMA YouTube channel and Selby also has a blog article he wrote after the Virtual World MOOC visit last year and you'll see a link to that article in chat as well. Now I would love to have more visitors get more feedback and I'm happy to answer any questions and consider new topics. All right, please, if anybody has any questions you can put them in local text chat and we can get around probably after we finish the introductions. Did you see the quest? Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were wanting them. They're going to heck. And Lisa, somebody's asking you for contact information and she's already posted it in the local chat. So that was pretty fast. So I want to introduce my floor. Maria, just a minute, I know I missed some questions. I can see the last one, something about business processes. I'm open to ideas, so contact me because I have a bunch of them on my top of my head. Go ahead. All right, so here we have this robot, half robot sitting on the blue couch is Mike Laurie. He's the CEO of Galactic Systems, which is a software development company focusing on VR, AR and blockchain technologies. And some of you might know him from Second Life where he built one of the top 25 virtual reality development companies with a quarter million dollars in annual revenues in less than a year, 53 regions full of paying customers. He's also behind the first virtual stock exchanges and helped capitalize dozens of other virtual businesses. But today he's gonna talk about some of his projects in OpenSim and he has a lot of projects going on. He teaches a Blender class every Sunday about how to use Blender, which is a 3D, free 3D modeling program. He also chairs the exhibits committee of the International Space Flight Museum and he's helping build and use Star Wars role-playing community, which all sound super interesting. And let's start with the most useful one, the Blender classes. Can you talk about Blender and why it's important to creators in OpenSim and how you got into all this? Well, I joined Kitely in 2016 after a number of years away from OpenSim just because I wanted to create scenery for the cover of a novel I had written. And I discovered that there wasn't content available to create the scene, so I had to make it and using the in-world building tools wasn't to the fidelity I wanted. So I had to learn how to use Blender. So at the time there was a group of Blender teaching group and I learned Blender with them. And eventually I wound up taking over that group. And it's really essential to know some type of modeling application to build efficient builds for OpenSim. One of the problems in Second Life and OpenSim is that most of the lag comes from the inefficiencies of the builds. The in-world building tools are great for people to learn to build. But as meshes, they're extremely inefficient and they cause a lot of computational burden on the computer and the server that is the main source of lag other than other communications-based sources that we deal with. And so that was why eventually Lyndon Lab enabled people to create mesh for Second Life and now we can do it in OpenSim is that a mesh is far more efficient. You can render the same shape for 10 to 20% of the number of vertices and triangles that you can render the same object built with prints. And because of that, you can have a lot more detail in the things you build if you make it with mesh and you can have more stuff in the same lending area. So it reduces lag for everybody. And at the same time, it increases standard frame rate performance for people. So you don't need a super high-end computer as much now as it used to be in Second Life. Just trying to go on the mainland in Second Life used to be terrible with the amount of lag if you didn't have a top-end machine. So every Sunday, 6 p.m. in the Space Force region in Kitely, we sit down and we do screen sharing on a media on a prim and show step-by-step through different steps of processes of using Blender for different functions to create mesh for OpenSim. That's really cool. I get a lot of people coming to these classes. It varies from week to week. We range from between two to sometimes as many as a half dozen. Getting the word out more is important. And I'm not the only person who teaches there. Occasionally, we get Kayaker coming in to talk about a given topic. One of the, we teach everything from the basic intro to using Blender up to much more advanced things like rigging mesh for avatar shapes and clothing and so forth, which is a very advanced topic that's particularly given issues with the various plugins for creating rigged mesh. We've been helping to reverse engineer that process to make it easier so that people can make rigged mesh without buying the Avastar plugin. So they'll be able to do rig mesh completely with just the free Blender application. Now the announcements are posted on the Kytli calendar. So people can find out what events are happening and what the schedule is. Yep. All right. And I've posted a link to one of those announcements in the chat here. So if people don't know how to find Kytli announcements, they can just look on that. I'm sorry. Yes, it was four p.m. The six p.m. is another meeting. So the other thing is we mentioned the International Space Flight Museum. And that's what we have a six p.m. meeting on Sundays in Kytli for that. And so we build spacecraft rockets all sorts of exhibits to document and educate people about the entire history of human spaceflight, not just from the U.S. but from all countries. And so it's a real educational resource, not just for OpenSim, but for people bringing different schools into, school classes into OpenSim, particularly in the current era. It's a great educational resource for school kids. And so one of the things that we need to do is we just expanded what we have from two regions that were, I believe, two by two in size, each one. And we've expanded to an eight by eight mega region. And so we're doing a big expansion in our exhibits. We have the normal rocket exhibit sim and then we have a Mars colony exhibit that we've been working on recently. And we're gonna be expanding to have a lunar colony exhibit and Europa and Titan and some other locations around the solar system. And so one of the things we've been implementing is a bidding process so that when we have a need for exhibits we can put up a request for proposals to the public and so that anybody can submit a bid to build an exhibit for us and they can specify how much they need to be paid for and we select the winner based upon what they're offering to build and for how much. And so anybody that's interested in participating in this competitive bidding process can attend our Sunday 6 p.m. ISM meetings in Kitely in the ISM sandbox region any Sunday. So this Sunday, next Sunday, et cetera, and sign up. And so you'll get notices when we have RFPs going out and you can bid for this on a paying basis. Thank you. I just posted a link to that as well as well as to the Kitely calendar so people can see both of those events are listed on the Kitely calendar. Yeah, so now you also talked to me about you're working on role-playing projects and can you talk about what you're doing to bring role-playing groups into open set? Well, I'm a big Star Wars nut and sci-fi nut as you can probably tell from my avatar. I used to do Star Wars role-play in Second Life and since coming to open SIM given the much more affordability of working in open SIM than Second Life, I've wondered why we don't get more people and groups migrating from Second Life to open SIM because most of the role-playing groups' content is built by the players themselves and they should be able to port it pretty easily. So this is starting to happen. We're seeing, for instance, there's been a large migration recently of pirate combat groups from Second Life coming into open SIM, particularly with the advent of the mega regions in Kitely, they're seeing a lot joining Kitely there because of the large size and the smooth operations of Kitely regions. And so I run a SIM called Naboo which is modeled on the planet in episode one of Star Wars. And so I built the full-scale model of Ganga city where Jar Jar banks and his people are from. And so we've been solely building up Naboo over time and there's another SIM owner is starting, he's got a couple of regions of his own that he's been opening up. And so we're hoping to encourage more people who are interested in various role-playing to get together, to try to organize. Part of role-playing aside from creating the content is building the community. And so you need to have groups together as you can't just be the creator sitting down, creating the stuff. You need to have people who want to role-play with it and getting people involved in that. And so given the current conditions it seems like a lot of us have a lot more free time on our hands now indoors than we used to. And so it seems like a great time where role-playing is something that can really help us occupy our time and while maintaining social connections and so forth. So I invite people to join us if you're interested in science fiction role-play to join with us. There's the Pirates groups. And if there's other role-playing groups we'd love to hear from you and try to build a broader role-playing community in an open scene. Now for people who don't know I want to explain a little bit about Megaworlds. This is Kitely's answer to variable-sized regions. A lot of grids offer similar packages. Kitely's has some interesting performance enhancements. So you get for a hundred bucks a month you get 64 regions which is less than $2 a region. You get 150,000 prims and you have up to 80 avatars on this land area which is all region it's all basically it acts as one big giant region that's eight by eight. So that's really new. Kitely just rolled that out this fall. So now Kitely isn't the only grid where stuff is happening. So I wanna talk to both of you about what you're seeing on the open sim grids. We have Franco grid and Kraft and OS grid that are well-known for museums and art exhibits and other sort of events. And we have low-cost things that people run on their own servers or self-hosted regions that they attach to OS grid for free and as well as niche private grids. So Lisa, can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing and especially I know you wanted to say something about niche private niche grids. Sure. The one thing I have to say is I can't recommend any one place to go visit because there is so much creativity out there and I don't want to say that, oh, this is the grid that does art and this is the grid that does music and so on and so forth because there are individual creators that have regions and parcels that have done some amazing things that you wouldn't even know to find on those grids. So the key here is that most of the grids, out on the hyper grid, are niche grids. They do have themes that go along with them. They're not trying to be the next Philip Linden, the next Second Life or whatever because that has been tried and it's failed because this is a decentralized protocol and that makes it really good for niche grids. But from a home-based grid perspective, there are some trade-offs from a community perspective but the community, I believe, needs to come together and find some solutions to those negatives that we do see where you may have a non-technical person administering a grid and they create some issues that might impact the hyper grid protocols in terms of the way they may modify their databases, et cetera, we do need to find some trade-off solutions. Now, if you're looking to find events that are happening such as music events or art events, one of the most popular places, opensimworld.com, I've posted a link to their events calendar and they also have directories of regions organized by category such as, for example, art and I've posted a link to their art category and there's a few other directories and lots of Facebook groups. Google Plus used to be the place but that's been shut down. So now there are several Facebook groups, if you search for opensim, they will come up and there's a lot of events happening throughout that you can look for. Mike, would you like to add anything about what you're seeing? Well, from a role-play perspective, there's another big role-play community there are Star Trek role-players on the third rock grid, which is a nice, I would say it's a small to midland grid, very user-oriented and the kind of science fiction-y orientation in a lot of its content, good people run that so I can recommend that. For in terms of event notifications, there used to be a service called Hype Events which basically- That still exists. It's, they still exist. Oh yeah. Their boards seem to stop working but they're great because they aggregate the event postings of a lot of different grids. So it's easy to have those all put together with that. I love the opensim world so- There's just a different post now. You probably just need the new link. Okay, that's great to hear. The opensim grid site is a great place. The one thing that annoys me about that is I have to keep going in and renewing my events every week. There's no repeat posting. That's annoying. So if they could do something where it would be easier to have repeat events without having to redo that all the time, it would probably be a big help I think. But so yeah. A big promotion is a big topic that I think as a community we might be able to come up with a little bit better solution than what's out there now. So I posted the link to Third Rock Grid in chat and I also posted the new link to the Hype Events calendar. So you can subscribe to that as well. On Third Rock Grid, just one other note. The Star Trek Group which is United Federation Starfleet is also associated with the Second Life Group. Okay, so now there's also quite a few niche grids like Naira's Nook for writers. There's science fiction themed grids. There's a new vampire grid that just popped up. And if you have an event that you'd like to promote or anything like that in addition to posting in directories that are listed, you can also get a free add on HyperGrid Business. If you want to write up your event or promote an event that's coming up, you can submit an article, all this is free. Please, you're welcome to do that. I'm going to post my email in chat so that we can do that. And there's also the Hyperica Directory which is now owned by Fred Beckinson that also has an in-world system that works with the viewers as well. So one of the things that comes up when creators talk about OpenSim is the question of content protection. There's a feeling, especially, I think it was especially strong maybe 10 years ago that people weren't safe, that content wasn't safe in OpenSim. And can you guys talk about that, Lisa? Yeah, I mean, for me, this is a really complex topic and it really needs its own panel session. So I had it in my mind after some discussion with quite a few people before the conference that we really need to host a panel on that and I'm open to anyone who would like to talk to me about their ideas on how we might want to put that panel together. We really do need to start looking at that from a developer's perspective of what we can do to help assure merchants that their content is not as susceptible as they believe. Mike? I find it interesting when people in second life denigrate OpenSim and claim that everybody here has a bunch of copy-botters and outside of one particular grid I won't name, I haven't met any other copy-botters in OpenSim. But I find it interesting that they claim that everything here has been stolen from second life while a second life wasn't so insecure then nothing here would be stolen. And so really if we're going to keep OpenSim connected in any way technologically with the second life platform, the onus really is on Linden Lab to make their grid more secure for content creators. And if otherwise the people of OpenSim really should have a conversation and make a decision about whether to stay technologically connected to second life in their platform or to go off and to modify the OpenSim code base to make it more secure. And by doing so, this would make OpenSim a greater value proposition to people than second life is. And it would attract more people to come here than to stay in second life. Right. Right. Now people say that because you can give yourself God powers in OpenSim or teleport to a grid that has God powers in OpenSim that it's easy to steal content here. But I want to set the record straight since I'm on the stage. You can copy bot anything in second life as easily as you can in OpenSim. And like Mike said, most of the stolen content is stolen in a second life. That's where the content is. The only difference, the only extra thing you can do in OpenSim is scripts. If you have high end scripted content then God powers can give you access to that. So if you have, if you're a creator with very high end scripted content, a type of good business I recommend that you can stick to grids that either are close to the hyper grid or restrict travel in the hyper grid to content like Kitely does. They filter content that's not allowed to travel if the creator doesn't want to allow it to travel and several other grids do the same thing. Or you can move the script server side. So the script isn't on the object itself but it runs like somewhere else on your own servers so that the secret sauce of your application isn't accessible in the world. Exactly, exactly. And this is where my comments from my previous panel really tie in here is that utilizing encryption technologies like those used in blockchain is really essential to helping to secure the assets of creators in OpenSim because with smart contracts on a blockchain you can build into smart contracts the heuristics that will ensure that if someone, if let's say I have a car and I put it on a smart contract on the blockchain and people buy it and someone resizes it and they use a ripping app to copy bot the car and then they try to turn around and they try to sell it as their own. Well, they've got to sell it through a smart contract on the same blockchain and the blockchain sees their upload and it compares the mesh pattern and it can compare the textures. And so it can do a heuristic comparison of how the consanguinity of the two pieces of content say, okay, this is 50% or 80% or 90% identical to this other contract. So you want to decline the upload or pay that contract a royalty. And so that way you can create this chain of royalties and enforce it through the heuristics of the smart contract system. And that protects creators rights because it ensures that even if you try to bypass the whole blockchain by ripping and reuploading the heuristics of the smart contract system catch that and enforce a royalty system. And the other thing that I want to add is that nothing gets rid of stolen content faster than good inexpensive legitimate content. We saw that happen with music and with videos because we have Spotify, we have Netflix and the amount of illegal downloads, they're such a pain, they're hard to find, they're riddled with viruses. It's everybody has Netflix, everybody has Spotify. Similarly in OpenSim, we have a lot of creators who are selling and giving away original legally licensed content and we have the Kytley market. So today I needed a pair of glasses and instead of hunting around the hypergrid for it took me a couple of seconds to go to Kytley a few cents to buy it and I have my glasses that you can see me wearing right now. And that is just, I think that's just awesome that OpenSim now has that because it's so valuable. But there's one more thing I wanted to ask you guys before we go, and that's about OpenSim graphics and OpenSim technology. To me as a user, it doesn't seem to have changed that much over the past 10 years. We do have mesh now, but other than that I'm not seeing a lot of differences in the way that OpenSim looks now than it did 10 years ago. Is this a handicap to creativity or does this help creativity? Lisa, what do you think? Well, that's an interesting question. From a technical perspective, obviously we need to update the viewers to support industry standard formats like GLTF and X3D. Creators can also include AI powered chat bot as part of their creative project. And that can help us get up to speed with user expectations from a video game community perspective, that's what they're used to seeing. So we need to do something about quality. When you think about that quality of graphics you look at it from a user's perspective and Frank and I had a conversation about this in our meeting this past week. There was a study that he mentioned where users will accept and engage on platforms that either have low quality graphics or they have high quality graphics equally. They accept those as bad or good and then they focus on the features of what they can do in the virtual world. Second life in OpenSim suffer from being in between. So in my opinion, we can greatly improve the graphics and the user experience in OpenSimulator much of what we're working on at IMA are stepping stones toward that goal. We wanna make it more attractive to millennial users. We need developers of tomorrow so that developers of today have someone to pass the torch to. So the platform is sustainable and we can grow that community of users. This in turn helps all of us attain our objectives whether it's education, commerce, medical benefit or socialization. So that's my two cents. Well, there's kind of two sides to that. Number one is complexity, okay? People tend to put too much detail into the mesh when it doesn't need to be there. The first mesh I uploaded in Kitely when I first joined was a bong and I was so impressed that I could upload a bong with 250,000 triangles in it. And I thought that was awesome but it crashed my viewer because it was so complex, okay? And people tend to, you know and like Green was mentioning in the comments that a lot of people just download junk off of free content download sites but the problem is those meshes are very, very complex and people just download it from the sites and they upload it to OpenSim and they upload it to Second Life and it's highly complex and it completely defeats the purpose of having mesh in OpenSim and Second Life which is to make it more efficient so that there's less lag on the server and less lag on the viewer. And so we really need creators to be a lot more efficient about their mesh. So you can take a quarter million vertex mesh you download off of some free site and with a few simple tricks you can learn in my class so come on and attend. You can make that a much more efficient mesh that's maybe 20 to 10% of the total number of vertexes and triangles that are in whatever you downloaded and that makes it much more efficient. In the process of really optimizing their model and simplifying it so that it's a efficient triangle rendering they also have the opportunity to fix all those flip faces and those holes in the mesh that are just prevalent in a lot of things that you get off of some of these 3D modeling sites. Now, another side to it is in the texture rendering. Okay, now in the old days, we had just one texture you could apply to each face of a prim and that was it. And then you could add a little shiny to it and you could add a little bump map to it and so forth but there wasn't any other textures you could apply. Well, now we can apply three textures you can have the diffuse, which is the normal colored texture of the surface. Then we can have a normal, which is the bump map and you can make a custom normal map image for the bump map of an object. And then we have what's called the specular, which is essentially deals with the shininess and the environmental reflections of the object. So you can have three different and using multiple textures together like that is what we call in graphics physics-based rendering. And you can have complex textures for every feature of a rendered texture, whether it's the glow, whether it's the transparency, et cetera, et cetera. And we only use in OpenSim three of those types of textures and we could have more. And the more of those you use, the more physically realistic the world will look like. And secondly, there's another issue with the rendering engine in the viewer uses a color management system that is 30 years out of date. And this is something that I tell people in Blender is that the color management that we are seeing on the screen here was designed for using on cathode ray tubes. It was not designed for use with LCD screens. And so because of that are the range that what's called the gamut of colors that we can see here is very narrow, all right? And now if we went from a, what's called sRGB color management model to what's called a filmic management model, we could just that one change would make this whole scene look a lot more photorealistic. And that's something I encourage anybody in the audience that's on the OS viewer dev teams to look to try to work to change the color management model used by the viewers. Cause that one change will drastically change how great OpenSim looks. Well, we're gonna have to end that on this note, which is very disappointing to me cause I'd love to get into discussion of VR and what OpenSim can do in that. Cause I always, I always want to get into that discussion. But we don't. So like I said, you can email me. Lisa has also posted her email in chat if you have questions for us and the slides are available online. Thank you. And for those that have more interest in the scene gate viewer development, we'll be talking about that tomorrow morning. So be sure to attend that session. All right, fantastic. Hey, and thank you, Maria, Lisa and Mike for a terrific panel session. As a reminder to our audience, you can see what's coming up on the conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org. Following this session, the next session will begin at 4 30 p.m. in this keynote region. And it's entitled, Staging Effective Graduate School Residencies in OpenSim VR, Methodologies and Insights. Also, we encourage you to visit the OSCC20 Posture Expo in the OSCC Expo 3 region to find accompanying information on the presentations and to explore the hypergrid tour resources in OSCC Expo 2 region, along with the sponsor and the crowd funder booths located throughout all of the OSCC Expo regions. Thank you again to our panelists and to the audience. Thanks, everyone. Thank you for having us. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, this is great. Thank you.