 Hello and welcome to Digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee Today is Sunday May 10th 2020, and I'm Larry Rhodes doubter 5 and as usual we have our co-host wombat on the phone with us Hello wombat and sings my song My save you died for me Oh Great great boys quadrice Bob And our guest today are joy woods Chad the in what Chad's not here, but Boudreaux is and red pirate Higgs Hey, hey Leave anybody out. I don't think so Digital Freethought Radio hours talk radio show about atheism free thought Rational thought humanism and the sciences and conversely. We also talked about religion religious faith God's holy books and superstition superstition almost well, I guess I did miss it If you get the feeling you're the only non-believer in Knoxville while you're just not there are several atheists Rethinking rationalist groups that exist right here in Knoxville And we'll be telling you how you can connect with them right after the mid-show breaks Did you know that there was a streaming call in? Atheist video show broadcasting right here in Knoxville. Did you know that? Well, I bet has been for 10 years. I have not been while I tried to watch it I only got to the second episode. I feel really bad about the Tigers I feel like if you make a show about how Tigers are exploited But you're kind of exploiting the people who are exploiting the Tigers You're still at the end of the day exploiting Tigers. I can't watch a show with you a hundred percent Okay, I'm gonna watch with her atheist Colin video show One of these days you'll find it and we'll be telling you how Right after the mid-show break so you can check that out. Remember if you don't have an atheist group in your town Start one nice easy as that If you'd like to interact with us during the show go to Facebook and search for our digital free thought radio hour And use the messaging function to send questions or comments Won't that what do you have for us today as far as a topic? I got a lot of stuff I want to talk about but actually I want to fill this one out to Eric Boudreau you had a really cool topic that you want to bring up and I want the freestyle on that so we might Spit in what we're about to drop down today Certainly, and I love love the way you characterize my question to make it even more fitting for this group so so the idea kind of spawned from Being on Facebook, which I know many of us are doing too much of and Insights it incites bad emotions. Yeah thoughts and arguments for me It's a cycle between Twitter Facebook and then reddit and then I was like I hate all these places And then I just go to the next place and I'm just in a circle. I'm like why am I wasting time? Yeah, it's all same thing But some some friends of mine some intelligent friends of mine post these off the wall Crazy things now I say that because it seems crazy to me, but to them it probably isn't crazy But I will you will see posts that make claims that just Don't even echo anything of scientific reasoning or backup or evidence But people are clinging to these thoughts and these these things and memes and they're sharing them and other people are buying into it Well, the example so well what one was Top-10 list or however many of of things happening currently with COVID-19 and basically saying do I think it kills people? Yes. Do I think? The hospitals are being overrun. Yes, and it goes down this list and it just gets No, they're trying to virus. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they're trying to they're trying to say I agree with these things But then do you think that the government is taking away our liberties? Do you think that the media is conspiring to create this? Politicalization of it just kind of goes off the rails from there and it keeps going and I and I think your point Wombat was how do you how do you engage with these people on Facebook or how do you gauge with them at all people who are your friends? But are posting kind of nutty stuff It's almost like what's right word for it like snopes like and when someone posts something and you put a snopes link on there saying Hey, this has been debunked. He just don't stop posting this. It's you're just it's wrong and and they get mad and and how so so I'm I'm out of ideas. I've tried to engage with people before and it just makes them mad Well, tell me what didn't work and then Learn from that. Well, I guess I I've I've found that one friend in particular hated the fact that I challenged them Openly on Facebook, you know, like hey, you should have private messaged me this and I think they're they're embarrassed But you know, they're the ones making the open claim on Facebook So I didn't I didn't think I'm I'm not allowed to openly disagree with them Another way I tried to engage someone recently is someone posted a Response to the the pandemic the video. I don't know much about it, but it's another what is this thing that people are referencing man This is this is the fourth time I've heard about it this week. I Don't want to know what it is, but I also want to know what it is just But I don't want to know about it. It's it's the Sam Harris Of coronavirus stuff. Just just Could you briefly inform me or anyone else who's wondering like what the hell are these? What is this portmanteau that you're putting together all I know about it is it's some anti-vaxxer doctor who I think has been kicked out of the scientific community for posting for publishing erroneous data and and and faked data and change data And it keeps getting removed from YouTube or other places and people are mad about It because they think the media is pulling down this real science that the scientists don't want to show pressing Yeah theories Yeah, and my my reaction to that is you know, hey this this whoever this lady is she doesn't need to convince us non Non-experts she needs to convince the other experts and if she can't do that I but we shouldn't give it any time of day. I think yeah, but I think I Wish that was a majority mindset And but at the same time I my question would be is it really beneficial and productive to delete it? You know, why not just let people like us comment on it and put, you know, Snopes links and When you delete it it just makes a lot of people won't think that's kind of shady and they kind of a more drawn to it People people don't like facts The thing about it is if they post it on Facebook, they're inviting comment I mean, that's you know, they unless they have comments turned off Then if that's the case then you can just bypass and go on but if they post it and leave comments open They're asking for it. They're asking for you to comment on it. Yeah, I like that You have the ability don't you have the ability on Facebook to say no comments allowed on a post Oh turn off commenting then it's free form, baby I do think that when you are a lot of people post not thinking that they're in a pot and a in a Public setting they just do it because they think oh, this is my safe little bubble. Of course, I can post it here I don't need to put these safe walls and they also aren't used to getting challenged on the internet because the internet very much caters to you as a as a potential customer of ads Such that if I look up Apple I've done this before I've looked up Apple on my computer And I get the company and I get the stock price that's associated with it And my friend will look up Apple and he gets the fruit and my other friend will look up Apple and it's because it's apples of fruit Yeah, like people are like what what apples are fruits like absolutely Larry. Why are you giving me that confused look? Yeah, because Google's like well you're a person of blank and blank your mail your blah blah blah blah We know what you want when you say this and so the whole internet more or less is looking through your cookie history and being like When you put in this weird gibberish keyword phrase We already know what server to pull the information from and we know what you're gonna look at next and we know what you're gonna Probably gonna buy next so we're gonna fill these ads out here at the right time and the internet just becomes this place Where you're always happy because you're always seeing what you want and then here comes, you know, Boudreau's little Counter claims like actually here are some facts that show that you're wrong Not in my world gets out of my domain. How dare you how dare you sir, how do I disable comments? Do I need to do that here? Do I need to lock my doors? Gary I'm wondering like is Canadian Facebook any more polite because you might be our last bash Absolutely, yeah, and I find actually in this in this, you know the small town that I live in It's very a surrogate. There's you know on everything and I Always tried to stay on my dread pirate Higgs account Just because I I only speak to the people I'm interested in talking to If I go on my generic Gary Smith account, it's you know, it's the you know, the unrestricted flow of The you know, it's essentially the seropipe of Facebook. So Yeah, yeah, Joey, how do you feel about the idea of you had mentioned that you wanted you didn't want the video to be deleted is there ever a point in time where it might be good to Control how media is being delivered like if there was for example the video Could have further drive people to do more crazy things or cause hate crimes or I don't know whatever Is there a line is there a line where it's like it was probably a good move to delete it at this point Like we're just not in the mood where we need more inflammatory information at this point. I See it's a very it's it's it's not a very black and white topic because it goes down the road of freedom of information And it's almost just that my only response was bees. I just wish it didn't have to be deleted I wish it just nobody would be interested in it because people would know People would do their own research and know that that's just bullshit. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's okay Yeah, I just I just So I don't really know because at what what's the motive behind it at what point, you know, you're trying to You know protect people from themselves or protect protect people from false information I mean, how far does that go and who's to say what's false information? And that's like we have the freedom to do or shouldn't it would it be best for us all to have the freedom to do our own research? I mean if it you know Even if even if a lot of us go down the wrong road, it's just I don't know It just enters into a grander topic about you know, what what power should a corporation have and what how what kind of power should a government have over People to you know, it goes down down to that Just so I actually look I actually looked at that top 10 list and at the start It seemed like it was building up some yes momentum, which is like, hey, do you have two thumbs? I have two thumbs Sure. Hey, do you breathe outside? I breathe outside. Is there a virus going on? Yes, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah And then it was like started getting you're right, Bujo They were started getting a little like squirmy with the words because I was like Shouldn't I keep you agreeing with this? And I think the one of the things was like is American liberties being or American rights being violated by You know, like the the idea that you have to shelter in home and I was like, I mean I Understand the idea of like we have a right to protest and go outside But like not if it's absolutely detrimental to Like if you go out and die from a virus that you can't control I think like or kill others. Yeah. Yeah I think we'd be like, okay, there's a line here There you virtually protest you don't literally have to hold a picket outside and be like, ah, I'm angry because no one's gonna See you anyway because no one can go outside. Maybe there's a just think about it for like three seconds So I'm gonna say no here and then as you went down further and further was like no no No No, so You know, that's a list of ten different things maybe six things that I don't agree with Where do you even begin to start with as far as like your response to like wow? I just saw you post this How can I even formula response? Boudre? What would you even how would you even begin? What's what's what's the response? This is where I mean we've got the the the mind trust here I was hoping I was hoping we could answer this question because I really am my my instinct now is to Is to continue to be friends with this person and not say anything? Hmm. I mean, I that's that's where I feel like I'm stuck I want to I will say the other example I gave was someone posting the pandemic video and Someone has had posted a kind of debunking video of that and I and I and I said thank you Thank you for sharing this. I really need this out there because a lot of people Joey as you're saying that mean that they don't have They don't have I think the the capability of Detecting that it's wrong. So they're buying it. So so in a response I just put out a video that debunks that that junk video and I tagged the person that shared the pandemic video first Okay in it and said yeah, thanks for posting this a lot of people need to see this really smart people are buying into this stuff What do you think tagged friend? Zero response from him zero But on his own post he was he was plenty willing to argue with me up and down Yeah, you're you're a social media wizard What what is your take on like all of this and how would you know about responding the main response? I would think is that the cone of coronavirus doesn't respect anybody's rights. I Mean, there's just no rights involved I mean if you get exposed to it whether you're inside or outside or somebody outside ignores The threat because they say that they have rights to commingle and then go Go visit their their grandparents at a nursing home or something and that starts a pandemic in the inside the nursing home That's just totally responsible. Yeah, I mean and and the rights go out the window We have to there there are levels to your rights and the level of the right to societal Health I guess is is higher than your personal right sure like the idea of a soul part of the social contract, right? Exactly, it's my well-being that we really have the rights for and if you're doing something that harms the well-being Even if you're exercising rights, you're not really going towards the foundation why we have rights in the first place, right? The crux kind of all the crux with this argument though go for it go for it sure some people are claiming claiming using science That It's not true It's not having the death rate and all the all the other stuff that we're hearing so if if the question is We're telling you to stay home But your liberal scientists your brainwashed liberal scientists are lying to us about the problem now And again, I'm trying to play devil's advocate here because obviously I agree with science in this case now the argument is We are not Trying to tell you to stay home because of the dangers of spreading this thing We're telling you to stay home because we're lying to you about this and it's some power trip or control Well, I think that it's not just the power trip. This is a Russian year and people congregate Town halls they they go voting. They do all kinds of things. It's a political activity Which is a protected political activity to congregate. It's right by the Constitution, right? Some people say that this is all a hoax to keep us from congregating to keep us from Being politically active during the election here from Occupy in the streets My main issue with this is just that I mean the government is not their hands aren't clean and I get this the the The suspicion of things but if you look at the power grabs that governments do There's profit involved in in their power grabs and I fail to see What the profit is? Yeah, what is it? There's a power grab going on. It's just like what what is there? Well, what's the point? What's the long-term power play? Well, yeah, well the power if you have power you can generate profit if you lose power You you lose the ability to generate profit, you know from being in in office So, I mean, that's where the conspiracies theory comes from that you can't congregate Like no economy Why would they do this in the first place? Well, I see I see a failure I See a failure in the argument that it's preventing us from congregating because we're congregating We're online here five of us from all different parts of the country or North America here You know, it's really actually driving us together in in some respects because I'm having now more conversations with people I am more inclined to Is, you know empathize with or sympathize with in in terms of you know Subject in content and all that kind of stuff as opposed to just listening to the who's available, right? I don't and I don't think I think in the same epistemological way where we always try to think of a better way to think We can think of better ways to protest in the circumstances that we are currently in if there was a volcano outbreak like the movie volcano Amazing move. You got to watch it. It's amazing. I just watching all the old 90s movies like Dante's Peak or something No, it's like Armageddon, but cheese comes from the earth Yes So like if there's bulk if there's literally lava all throughout the streets and it's burning cars and melting everything You want to go outside and protest like I I hate lava like this is bad because No, let's just think about this a little bit and like take the high ground and find better places to do this safely We can still protest, but let's do it in a way That's very safe that make sure that we still exercise our rights But we aren't causing needless harm, which is the main reason why we have these rights in the first place And if it if it if we can do if we can still protest and if we can still congregate Then maybe we don't have to have a picket and be out on the street where we're coughing on each other to protest Maybe there's better ways to do this and I think yeah because of that. I don't think if there's an infringement on my rights I still feel like I have the ability to do all the protesting congregating that I need to do as Gary just pointed out we're congregating right now, but there's a better way to do it and it goes back to our people willing to Critically think for just a moment and and come to that conclusion on their own or are they more inclined to just hear someone say this is violating my rights and Allow the emotion to find a connection with something that's not necessarily based on reason. I Feel like we it's very easy to fall into those traps over and over again, right? I have this concern that there's something a little deeper going on and I mentioned this over the Messenger it it almost seems like they're looking for a fight like they've been all like a lot of these guys that are You know going to the protest with a k-47. Oh It's almost like they've been waiting like they've been waiting for an opportunity to show their patriotism and pronouncing it in English. No, you said it in French. So like Gary was laughing. He understands. He's like, oh, yeah finally The show that It's just but it just just doesn't seem to fit. It almost seems like I don't know. It's just a very bizarre Yeah, like what are they gonna do you shoot the virus or something? It's just we're gonna I should laugh at that but you know There are some people who probably believe guns could solve that problem as well like it I would never take I never take the opportunity to say like there's gonna be someone out there. Who's just like I I have min maxed This is just very quick tangent. There are some people who like soda carrots school Cars and like maybe basketball, right? And then there are some people who just like one thing and they're all about that one thing and sometimes guns are for that One person. They're just like I'm all about guns I've min maxed all my skills all my intelligence points everything into guns. So if there's a virus out what else I do I'm gonna have a gun exactly. There's a virus outbreak I got a gun if there's a zombie outbreak gun if there's a anarchy in the streets gun if I need a Help deliver a baby tomorrow. I got a gun. I'm someone's gonna something happens. I got my gun on me step one everything else step two There's that saying when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail exactly. Yeah, and so the idea of Resolving her virus with an AK-47 is very funny, but I imagine there's has to be at least two people out there who are like That's a good idea Larry. Thank you for giving it to me All right, so we got five minutes left before we wrap up how about this just as a quick wrap-up session We're gonna be talking about Crazy things that we've heard on the internet and how we can approach them in a better way and does anyone have let's see Joey Larry you like I said you are a social cat You've been on the internet Have you heard any crazy things on the internet like we're delighting to the coronavirus Panic and and and people are scared and they're trying to figure out like like here's a conspiracy that I've fallen into Not nothing came comes to mind like somebody else answer if you will and I'll think about it and see I I had anything I've literally had a DM to me and my sister from one of my old English teachers Saying that we need to cover our gas exhausts because that's where the virus is coming from and so there was instructions With how much Kleenex that you need and a rubber band to put over your exhaust To keep the virus from coming out. Just give them a potato And I saw that message and I and my response to that and this happened like maybe three weeks ago my responses what virus And she was probably like are you serious and at that point I just had to like archive the conversation I was just like I can't deal with that today. I'm sorry. I'm sorry But that was a teacher that I've had in the past so like I don't think anyone is and I No one's immune. No one's immune. So I'm always wondering in my own head What kind of biases I'm carrying around with me and those are gonna be the most interesting ones, of course, right? Yeah, yeah All right, I'd say we're at the bottom of the half hour Larry. Why you take us out? Okay, this is digital free thought radio hour and w o zio radio 103.9 LP FM Right here in Knoxville, Tennessee, and we'll be right back after this short message 103.9 FM wozo digital free thought radio hour simply the best Nice, I like it. I love it. I love it Hey, we got an ad this time the ad is for soap. Hey, do you like saying wordy dirties? Do you have problems not cursing when you told not to I have the solution for you? It's called soap you put it in your mouth It's amazing and it saves the world editing time. Isn't that amazing? It's so wonderful get soap today and go outside get soap put in your mouth and Be clean for the rest of your life. All right back to the show Welcome back. I'm daughter five. This is digital free thought radio hour and w o zio radio 103.9 LP FM right here at Knoxville, Tennessee Today is Sunday May 10th 20 20th. Welcome back to the second half of the show Let's talk about the free thought groups that you can join here in Knoxville first. There's the atheist society of Knoxville ASK was founded in 2002 or in our 18th year We have over a thousand members now and you can join us online at Knoxville atheists org or go directly to meetup it's a meetup group and Join the meetup group searching for Knoxville atheists It's just that simple by the way, if you don't live in Knoxville and you should go to meet up and search for a group in your town Don't find one That's right another large free thinking group here in Knoxville the rationalist of East Tennessee Ret can be found at rationalist org Go there and click on upcoming events to find out what they're up to Earlier in the show. We said we talked about Knoxville. So atheists call in TV show Wait, we have an I fee is calling TV show. Yeah, it could happen It's been going on for ten years here in Knoxville It's been going out on the community TV radio of a TV station However, this year we've changed to YouTube format so that we can do our own thing there without having to pay this local studio Go to YouTube and search for three words free thinkers United coalition of Knoxville Okay, four words. Oh my remember you can find archives of their show on YouTube where a fan has been posting them Also, if you're interested in becoming involved with the TV show or this radio show You can come to an ask meetup ret meeting or just talk to us about it. Go on Facebook Look for digital free thought radio hour and leave us a comment With us on the show. We have a wombat. Oh, I'm a wombat Joey. We have Boudreau and Dread Pirate Hicks I'm pick up the comments and let us know what you think Okay, so we were talking about Conspiracy theories no Yeah, like what do you do when your friend starts posting crazy stuff? Oh, yeah It's book and then how can you start that conversation with them to? Hopefully build the bridge for them to get back to the land of reason because you obviously like this person You care about them and you've never seen them post this way. So maybe it's better Easier to get them back to a more copa static state of mind the one that you know attracted you to the first thing I do is look it up in scopes and then give them the link. I'll look it up. Somehow give them information that The debunks it All you can do and it scopes superior to like say like Wikipedia or just like a you mean snopes, right? Snopes Snopes, right? Yeah. Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay website Bunking what also depends on how well, you know, somebody and if they are amenable Maybe they're at there in any kind of mindset to have a civil discussion about anything or that particular topic So and I think the biggest thing is don't Don't add hominem. I don't go after them as a person No, don't call them stupid or that's a ridiculous idea. It's stay calm Don't panic and proceed calmly right answer claims with facts. Yeah, so here So if I was I help me out here and I try not to get involved in internet arguments in the first place But I found that when I'm doing my se I never make a comment directly at the person who's holding the belief or a comment directly at the conclusion that they have I'm only interested in that thread that's connecting the two and I'll always always ask questions about How did you arrive at this conclusion? Because if it came there reasonably, I'll believe whatever the conclusion is So I don't care about the conclusion and I don't care who's given it to me I just care about that method and so if someone says something crazy I'll be like, how did you come to that conclusion? And if they say I read in a fortune cookie that gives me all the grounds I need to be like our fortune cookies reliable. Is this the best way to come to it? Is there a better way? What's a better way to come to this same conclusion than this one that you're using right now? And until then until we have that better way Why are we putting so much confidence in this one particular method? But I don't know if that works in a Facebook setting like I don't think a lot of people are willing to have that extended kind of conversation And that's the disadvantage that I've noted when I when I'm about to post on a comment thread because I know I don't have the time to invest and I know the way how I speak and like the Temporer and the syncopation that I'm using and the body language that I'm using won't translate Well when someone's reading my words in their head and and putting on them Maybe they make a nasal like Tyrone said this and I don't I can't respect this voice It's like no, don't say it like that put my put the base in baby put that what's that guy's name? Who's the guy very who's the guy who helped us set up the tent who is like the famous atheist dude? You know I'll Seth Andrews Yeah, that guy the guy who's always up on the mic whenever he's doing this podcast But when he's helping us and when he's helping us set up a ten is like hey guys you need some help This guy Hey, I'll help you guys out. Thanks. I hold my tape recorder. It looks like okay. Anyway, I'm back to being Seth Andrews Hopefully he doesn't follow us I would theorize that you know, sometimes the insertion of emojis helps to Relate some of the justiculations that might not be translated over by what you just simply write Hmm, just put a smiley face or a wink or a part you kind of triggered me now Because there are very few black emojis and I'm tired of being represented by a yellow Simpsons character Well, I want I want my emojis now. This this is beautiful. Ty doesn't have an iPhone and iPhones iOS app launched a long time ago the ability to pick yours your skin tone every You can be like you can be like light-skinned brown. Yeah, kind of brown really dark. Really? Yep. Oh, wow We need that's what we need I'm tired of like hey, that's not my thumbs up. Who's thumbs up is that that's that doesn't look like my hand Who's not my question Facebook are all blue. Oh, yeah, that's right Maybe it's been a while. I'm not blue either. I screw there are some blue people out there They're like hey in Kentucky there are yeah, it's true. Yeah, there's a whole family full of them. They're just sad They're blue in the last I guess So with that information like with the idea of like how can you really address an epistemology over the internet? Like what's the best way of doing that Larry? What do you think? I? just been doing it just you know a finding facts like googling it from good sources and I'll try to Approach him with a knowledgeable Orientation I guess I should say and just address the claims and and debunk them as best I can That's only publicly or do you like try to find one publicly? I mean because all of my stuff if I can do any of it I try to do publicly The reason being if you if you don't convince that person the other people reading it may Understand where you're coming from and be convinced Yeah, what do you think what's a good way to address epistemologies over the internet with some Well, I think pretty much in the same way that that daughter five was saying Again, I just try to proceed as calmly as possible and search as many links to reliable incredible sources of information and Just try to make a good argument What do you think is the likelihood of any of those links being clicked and then processed in the same way that someone who's biased against that information Will interpret but this is the and again to share Larry's point is that it's not necessarily that the person to whom I am Responding with these links is the person to click right the person who might otherwise be swayed by what these persons are saying I Have not yet been convinced of his His truth that yeah, that's a significant nuance point You're not trying to have a conversation with the person you're talking to you're really talking to an audience You're really debating you're not having a messy conversation. That's right So you're really not talking about the epistemology at all But the nature of the question that I'm asking is I found it to be ridiculously effective to talk about the epistemology rather than Throwing out kept back counter fact back counter fact back counter fact on a conclusion that may absolutely be completely Incongruous like that's not a true conclusion But if we're just fact counterfacting and allowing people to come in and cherry pick whatever they want to support their own biases Isn't there a more effective way to have these kinds of conversations that I felt like with SC there is It's about talking about the methodology, but how do you have a methodology conversation on the internet? Right and that's something I haven't been able to really nail down either. Here's what I'm hearing Ty Let me know if I think this is a way to approach it. All right, you engage with the the person making a claim that you disagree with Maybe you private message them and say hey, I I Don't agree with what you're saying and I have reasons, you know, or however you set it up But maybe you ask them Can we do a zoom call 15 minutes I love that just get on zoom the two of us hash this out and no recording Yeah, if we come up with something that we both agree on let's post it on Facebook. Oh, that's good. Oh, that's good That's excellent. That's a great idea. That's really good. Yeah now because now there's no audience You are talking to each other. There's some humanity there I know like we were over a screen, but I can't I can't spend more time looking up why you're wrong Then listening to you and hearing you right so and I hear you for what you're saying and I think yeah Pull it out of that ring pull it out of that arena and get it to more just on a personal level where you can talk to each other And then if they both agree post it back on the internet and be like, hey I just had this conversation with this guy who posted this stuff. This is what we came to as a result. Well, Boutreau Have you done this before several times or? Is something that you're thinking about doing? Have I done the zoom chat? Yeah, I got an idea. I have not yet that I'm just inspired by my ties wisdom to Figure that's inspiring. That's a really good idea. I like that It shows that you care, you know, like it's not it's a good idea. I just wonder how often, you know, how it is that you go on Facebook or whatever and you start chatting to somebody about Some bad idea that they have and they just stick by the guns. They won't change in no matter what you think and then they start Coming down on you at homonyms. I was wondering how often that would happen face to face I don't know I think face to face would be a lot harder compared to just writing someone off in a world of cancel culture that we live in right now It's so much easier to just hit a race when you see a word you don't like but when you're engaged in a conversation with someone like I I'm invested in this conversation and Wherever it goes, I'm willing to get to its end and then after that will be after but I'm here now and I can't Just push a button and be like, well, I'm just gonna go. He's like, oh silly if I do that Yeah, plus it has a benefit of you're getting to know that particular person in case you see them online again You might be able to be more friendly. Yeah More inclusive, I guess and I like the idea of posting the video afterwards and being like, hey We had a really cool talk. Would you mind if we just share that with people? That could be your podcast dude Where's Chad why isn't he on here It's like, hey, just talking to people on Facebook about stuff and I just want to see can we hash this out? Yeah, like the virtual summit will call it whatever you want to call your part What is your podcast name by the way? Have you come up with a name? We haven't come with the name Herb and Street, baby Yeah, yeah, it's right behind you Oh, yeah, yeah Yeah, that's a good name. Yeah, it would be good. Joey looks like he's wants to say something my bad my bad I was just well, I was just wondering if there's kind of like a a pre-se conversation to Kind of gauge where a person's mind and personality is to see number one, are they capable of grasping the tools that se can give them or And number two, are they willing to to use them at all? Um, because I was I'm thinking Could it just be it can be It can be very unproductive to to get into a conversation and especially an se conversation and with somebody who just Is just shut down and not willing so i'm just wondering if there's if there's like some some questions that we could ask or um A conversation a pre-conversation we can have with somebody to kind of engage where they're at Um cognitively and it's not closed minded. They are before we Even begin on a specific plane So just one one point Actually just two quick points when i'm doing se I always make sure that my perspective is not I'm here to teach this person someone something or prove to them why they're wrong my mindset's always I'm trying to understand how you're right and we and if we can have honest conversation Then we can work on that together And if we end up getting to the at conclusion of how I figured out how you're right then I'll believe whatever's there But if we can't get there working together that says way more By the virtue of us working together trying to figure out how you're right and we couldn't get anywhere Then me saying well, look you're wrong because we couldn't get to this conclusion And so when you have the mindset of i'm not trying to train you i'm not trying to teach you and i'm not trying To advocate for anything i'm just trying to have an honest conversation with you And i want to find out how you're right That is the mindset that you should have with for se my opinion And then all you need at that point is just someone who's willing to have an honest conversation with you And if you don't have that you can't do se but that also says something more about the person who's not willing to engage with you That's not your problem. That's a that person's problem sort of thing and I and in those kinds of situations There's only so much you can do often I've tried just giving them the board and the marker board and be like why you ask me questions And you can see what I was trying to do and if we just switch roles And you can feel like you're more in control this will you'll see exactly like the kind of Conversation that I want to have and you can ask me about anything you want and we can just build ourselves up to that Hey, why don't we switch that question just slightly to making it more focused on the methodology rather than just strictly targeting the conclusion And then at the end of it It's like you want to swap back or do you just want to go back and forth and Move to this new topic that I want to talk about at the beginning you could totally do that too Gary you look like you want to say something sorry for making those points extended But what do you think about that as a mindset for doing se since you've done it? I think I think it's awesome Um, it's building rapport, right? You know a big part of it and I was just actually typing out rap apports rules Are you familiar with that? Remember? Rap apports rules Uh, it's it's about how to best engage someone in a conversation with whom Rather than a you know a heated debate your remember I brought up this thing When you're saying rapport, do you mean rap port? Yeah, English word rap port you're saying with a french accent. I don't understand what you're saying Rap port you guys know what I'm talking about. I mean, I have a rapport name. This is someone's named Oh, I thought you were saying like I'm trying to have a rap port with someone who's like, oh, no That's no it's not a rapport a rap port Rappaport Yeah, that's how we say that there you go. Now. So I did say rapport building rapport There's my french Canadian coming out and then there's rap apports rules Which is about like steel manning a person's your interlocutor's argument Right and trying to you know present them to themselves and the best possible light possible So that they are more inclined to Have an you know Applescent conversation as a yeah, like here's the best case scenario if this was the case Do you still see chinks in the armor basically? Yeah, exactly. And it's actually like I said about steel manning It's about putting the other it's putting your interlocutor's argument In such a good way that they wish they could have presented it to you that way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's and you build a lot of respect From your interlocutor that way. Yeah, it should demonstrates that you're really paying attention And you're trying to Give them As much benefit As possible before you destroy them, you know, who's really good at that by the way, right? Who's really good at steel manning matt del huntie. I don't know I fall asleep so Before we were talking about like how when you're having conversations, you're more like interested in just getting the posts and and throw them out there and then just Trying to persuade people who are watching the argument happen Have better counter a higher standard of counter arguments to deal with those guys Have you found other people responding to those links? And in a positive or productive way, like has that been a helpful way of resolving? Yeah, generally when I when I post like that, uh, somebody's got a erroneous view or false view of something and I and I bring over like a Snopes article or or google something and put it to them Usually what I see is like two or three people will come right behind me supporting what I just said Very few Well few anyway People will come up there and support the false view But I find that the people that do support the false view are take a real umbrage With me trying to correct it and will resort quickly to ad hominem attacks Which I can just ignore Larry have you had people throw the the business at you that oh snopes is, you know corrupt liberal media anyway, and I mean snopes doesn't matter because they'll You've heard that. How do you react to that? Oh, especially if you use like wikipedia and they come back with the conservapedia article I didn't know there was a thing like that. Oh, yeah, and there's there's a there's starting a new snopes thing Which supports the conservatives, which of course is false based Anybody who's a fact based like I would say media company You know, we just go to the the usual sites that support fact versus fiction But if you're a strong right wing conservative evangelical, that's not going to work for you because the facts Are definitely a lot liberal leaning As they say But what are you going to do? I mean this the facts around our side. Yeah, just work with what you got I just hate the idea of like a a conservative Fact world and a non conservative. Yes, I agree with you 100% like that Um, joey, where do you see this going say like five years from now? Like is this going to get better or is this going to get worse as new technology continues to you know come into our mindset and world being well, I think it um I think with as with most things it just it depends on us It depends on and how we adapt to it and how we choose to use it as long as people Well, guys continue to do what we do Which is focus on what we as individuals and we as the groups that we identify with Have power over and just do our best with whatever comes Including new technology. So that would be my response to that dread. How do you feel about this and any points in general? um No, no, you just posted something that's I just set up the perfect I just set up the perfect ball on the tee for you Well, I guess I I didn't quite get the question Do you have points in general for how to have a good uh means of communication with people? Okay, any tips that you would recommend That you may have recently posted. Yes or no, maybe Maybe I'm literally hallucinating Like that's the slowest I can throw the ball gary. It's going to fall to the ground It hit me right in the head. He did a pump. No Do you understand the question because I feel like my answer you got you got it joey We're waiting for dreads to like come to shore. Okay. So so I did I posted the uh, wrap the ports rules Uh, and it's about uh, you know attempting to re-express your target's position So clearly vividly and fairly that your target says thanks. I wish I had thought of putting it that way Secondly you should list any points of agreement Especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement So that way you're clear on what the points are I dig it And then you should mention anything you have learned from your target And then finally and this is after you've done all the other three That you are permitted Then to then introduce any word of rebuttal or criticism Cool Hey, I'm also going to throw another thing out too. I think things are constantly getting better And there's always going to be the growing pains of like Ah, man, I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is such a big problem I can't believe there's such a huge mess to fix Recognizing that mess being aware of the problem knowing that there's uh, uh an issue to be resolved is the first step to getting the problem resolved And we've spent maybe A lot of millennia thinking I only need to know what's going on in my own town I only need to go on know what's going on in my own village in my own family in my own house And now we have this world view that's opening up to the world where everyone's staying communicating with each other And we're seeing Things that we don't like and that's a good thing because now we know what we can fix And that's always going to be the growing pain of like man This is such a daunting problem But we fixed bigger problems before and now it's just the idea of like, okay What can we do now to resolve this? We're gonna we're gonna make some mistakes But we're gonna find out what works the best and just keep moving on from there. I think be really cool All right, uh closing out the show pretty soon. How about we do a roll call eric? Would you mind? posting me the link to your music video again and then also plugging it and uh podcast news What's going on with you in the future? What should we check out? Yeah, yeah, I'll post the link here here in a second, but made a fun little video with my daughter on A cover of an 80s song from men at work. Nice using covet 19 lyrics and it's very kentucky specific. I threw a couple good shout outs to our governor. Yeah And uh, yeah, it's fun and uh, joey I'm still I still want some feedback from you because you're the comedian. I want to know If I'm if I'm working as a lyricist or not, but All right. Are you talking about the the video that you did about the governor? Yeah, thank you. I very much enjoyed it. I think you did a great job. Cool. Nice. Nice. Hi grace He's post the link. I'll put the link on here in a minute. But yes, uh, I keep I keep threatening that we are Chad and I Chad the paler and I are gonna put our podcast together. I'm gonna take your advice Ty We're gonna we're gonna just take what we got Um, I think and get it gotta let the baby go. Yeah, just gotta gotta let it float. It's gonna be all right And then I also think a follow-up of doing those conversations with Facebook people would be really cool too. Yeah I gotta build up the courage for that. I don't know if I got the courage to start with your friends Do you already do with people in the summit? Just be like, hey summit guy. Do you want to? Yeah, I'll I'll volunteer I have crazy stuff. I think about all the time. So like, yeah, I That's what we're here for. Yeah good Dredd Where are you at? Where can we find you? Well, of course, you can find me on my youtube channel mind pirate P Y R A T E Nice, um, but I did want to mention that I uh, I connected with the executive director or The person that runs the show of at our local college And I've asked about the possibility of running a short course there on um, critical thinking and Skepticism She is all over it. Um So of course, there's a lot of resources over at skeptic dot skeptic dot org michael schermer skepticism 101 the baloney detection tool kit So I think I'm gonna put something together here So once college opens up We'll get something rolling and that using that as a means to sort of See what interest there is locally for people to you know Have these have these s e discussions as well I dig it's kind of like generating some uh, some interest to to s e through Something that other people pay to attend. I really love it. Nice. Yeah cool Joey, where you at? What can we find you? Um, uh for my music and comedy You just uh, you can follow me on twitter at um, jwk hates the news. Um And uh, just look up jw kennedy on on facebook as a channel for my, um Street epistemology That's going to be speak your beautiful mind on twitter if you can follow Follow it on twitter at at at your beautiful mind that's spelled you are so at your beautiful mind and speak your beautiful mind on um youtube And uh, there's no there's no content yet. I don't need to one of those those channels those channels yet until you know Once everything starts lifting up and um, you know start getting into that also. I just recorded um a first podcast with um a guy named, uh, carl who um who does s e his his name for his s e channel is um Campfire combos and we've tried to get together and we're um, we Well, we don't know how how far this is going to go but um What it's called the channel is going to going to be called centrae theist And it's about um, we're basically just just too atheist that consider ourselves centrist when it comes to politics and it's basically our our perspective on things from You know not being not identifying with either the right or the left and you know our thoughts on Yeah, okay. Very cool. Cool. I would there say that if you're watching this video You probably already know about my channel So i'm going to make a recommendation that you check out an interview with a friend of mine named fanny and zai Uh, she just did a interview with a guy named laurence krauss who's apparently a person that's uh, eric respects a lot So that must mean he's a famous atheist dude and he supports. Oh, okay, an incredible physicist. Okay cool And you can check out that video on fanny and zai's channel. Her name is f a n n y last name A n z a i check out her stuff. It's really good. Good call Larry why don't you close this out? Okay, uh, my content is basically on digital free thought dot com Be sure to click on the blog a button Once you go to the blogging read articles you can listen to atheist themed music And uh, you can also find the archives of all of these radio shows that we have done on digital free thought radio hour If you have any questions for the show, you can send them to ask an atheist at noxvilleatheist.org and we'll answer my future shows and if you have Podcast players you can find their podcasts on itunes stitch your luminary podcasts. I heart et cetera et cetera Also, I have a book on, uh, amazon. It's called uh, atheism. What's it all about? What's the point of what's all about? That's right, uh, and it's basically uh articles from my facebook page But you can have them all on harb back if you like their soft back if you like Also, random reading The atheist community of asin has been reposting those blog posts in their newsletter in the se corner and they've been doing it all throughout 2019 and so if you are in austin area and you have the atheist community of asin book And there's se corner the two page book. That's this guy or wherever wherever this screen's at that's this dude This guy wrote that so good stuff, man. Well, thanks for the plug I also have a youtube channel under doubt or five with the contents for kind of all but of course it's still valuable It's all about atheism and as I like to Close out the show generally, uh, I remind everybody that everybody's going to somebody else's hell The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real Until then don't sweat it. Enjoy your life, and we'll see you next week. Say bye y'all Bye