 Okay. Okay. Okay guys so welcome everybody. I'd like to welcome you to the talk about Maccenta operating system First of all to set up some rules. You can stop me at any time you can ask the questions You can whatever, but please don't ask me about the licenses. I'm not going to answer anything Please take this offline So to start First of all, I have to thank to Sun Microsystems for sponsoring my trip and my stay here at Denbon I'm going to talk about the operating system that is not in any way related to Sun's business It's entirely open source and it's built of the parts that are available on the network for everybody of you and Basically, the Maccenta operating system is part of my hobby. It's not related to my job So that's why I have to thanks for sponsorship What we are going to look at This is the short agenda and to make it fast I'm working with Debian and with Ubuntu for more than eight years. Although I'm not an official Debian developer or Ubuntu developer I did build quite a few of the packages for kind of commercial purposes in some of my businesses I was working for At the moment I work for Sun Microsystems as something that is called Sustaining Engineer Which means fixing the bugs and fixing the problems of the customers in enterprise software Which is very interesting by the way And one on one of the Maccenta operating members so a bit of motivation why I'm working for Maccenta these are quotes these are the quotes from the Jonathan's book. Jonathan is the CEO of Sun Microsystems, a very bright guy. So I believe you to read these things. Those guys is here I think you all know this Well one statement I believe Like I want Solaris to be that easy and the last one well terrific technology It's definitely sure these things should be trivial to fix. That's not so easy So why should you care before we go further I would like to ask you a few questions How many of you actually are using or playing with open Solaris in the room? That's great. So The other questions ZFS How many people know ZFS or have played with ZFS or know the features? Detrace. This is just for me to get the image Detrace is more interesting for people. Maccenta. That's absolutely great because I wanted to tell you that it will be no rocket science and not many surprising things for you But it looks like there might be some surprises So So the first thing all of you I suppose know be builder personal package builder you a Magic of the devian So I will show you how to feed up the package builder using ZFS technologies and zones technologies and basically open Solaris things since I don't like Typing the commands here at the shell I have Re-order the demo that I will just let you watch just by the way these things are available on the website for the later Training proposals and all these things. I just don't want to waste the resources So what you are seeing here? I hope you can see it is Basically the next item booted. It's kind of a pet our alpha version booted off the ZFS file system To get more info about ZFS just Google it and get some of the demos so I'm going to create a ZFS file system that will hold zones zones are basically intelligent change routes or Then virtual or parallel to your machine. So whatever you call it. That's why Don't set in the morning that if you're interested in virtualization you would like to see the stock and Now look how easy it is to create a new environment Which is fully virtualized We're creating new zone that will be called people there that will That will be stored in zones people there can just guess that in some people there will be some some root file system We will tell him that it should use this this Network interface it should get this IP address in order to get to the network This is very similar to what XM XM list is doing for them Basically showing the configured virtual machines that you live in your system. I'm sorry wait a minute. I will Basically the EA zero is a physical interface That is shared across multiple zones by creating the virtual interfaces So basically the semantics in open Solaris are the same like in Linux So you take Eternate zero colon zero colon one colon two colon three and you are creating virtual interfaces that are lying on the same physical cable So I am here telling him that this zone really shared this physical interface and as a result of this it will create a virtual interface Basically for you what you expect So let it continue so now Install the zone Again interesting thing is that there is some CFS thing going in behind you should all know this this is a plane the bootstrap that is basically creating the instance of an extent up into Some root file system You can see some of the sum W packages. These are basically the next entire open Solaris stuff The rest is just playing the VM or any Ubuntu and so you see that it to basically took 10 minutes to bootstrap the zone Yeah, it's using at proxy to download the packages to speed it up You see that the zone is installed and now I will show you how to kind of emulate the people you're people they're walking So you put the zone Takes about two seconds the login to the zone and you've got another open Solaris instance running It's the zones are basically very very very similar to Zen Except for the fact that they are part of the mainline open Solaris kernel You don't need to patch anything. You don't need to update anything recompile it's Just working so I'll get inside inside the zone. It's fully isolated It's sharing the kernel with the global zone so Yeah, right So what I'm doing here is basically to adding some of the different packages to the zone in order to create In order to create kind of people the right root file system containing the necessary tools So you see the zone is running. I'm going I'm getting out of the zone and I will just stop the zone in order to clone it for my building purposes so If you remember this zone CFG command that I was using in the beginning to create the zone I'm basically kind of putting everything in one liner to speed the things up As the bubble said I will create two clones of the table Clones in the sense of SVN copy SVN branches Which means cheap copies not full copies so you see it's like a Not even a second Configure it that I do have to do other zones and now Watch this two seconds And you have a new instance Okay What is happening in the background in the background you see this instead of creating your blah blah blah or instead of copying That fs clone has been created for the zone that fs clone is basically as a SVN copy Very probably very probably I'm not working with LVM since like two years back So I don't know where it's where it's going But very probably because snapshotting the fastest that means taking the freeze point in the time So that you can use it in life cycle, but back up it back it up. Sorry. Yeah, so that would be the same So where we are so we have seen that we have flown these virtual machines During one second. Yeah, that's the thing ZFS clone Here you have the actual clones Or actual snapshots that are marking the state of the file system in certain point in time What comes next? I'll probably boot it. Yeah, so well now you can see that actually the virtual network interface was created for the zone and I'm now logging to the zone Getting the build dependencies for screen and recompiling screen, which is basically what would be there Run on top of screen Source package files what it would do. So all these all things all these things should be familiar to you except the fact that there is Solaris I386 Architecture yeah, if you get out of the zone the root file system is in the in the zones Subdirectory basically you see the same files there So this is the simulation of how we would build it at this moment I would probably go destroy the zone which would which is what would be there People will outbox if you rebuild the package More interesting example If you are rebuilding very often package that has a lot of build dependencies I have chosen genome session because I just Was thinking that it got a lot of build dependencies This is this is what would the people review every time And I think it's doing it, you know probably better as most of your The DD's you probably know better than me what what it takes to rebuild the huge packages like Some x things and things like this so For the people to pay starches at an unpacking and all this time. Wow. Yeah That's why I'm showing you baby because this is what I experienced and So yeah, I did speak this process up in the recording, but it seems that it's still very slow Again, you could see some some of the Sun W Noise in there is some lips It's basically Kernel plus lip see us if config plus tools like this is something that is called all when And this is basically the thing that you download off the open source.org that you compile install and run and get Open source Cells contain cell hosting without anything else just to be an essay to be in the eye It contains more things than that basically Linux kernel And it's done differently because you basically get a huge package that contains everything Suitable to run the system including the things like graph I believe so that is like the module in its tools separated from the kernel itself And everything managed differently. This is all just one big pile Where we are night the person Time for questions. No, we don't have we don't use pool at the moment This old old with binary source and all these things without the pool and moreover We are in kind of transition in period at the moment, but the repositories there is huge if you have to add point GNU Solaris point org you will basically get oh Guess what I have to admit that I was not watching the flash export till the end Well, it seems to be broken my place died in Solaris Yeah, it's kind of problem with this with this nice export written in software written in UK No, okay, I'm sorry for this I was I was really not watching it and it seems that either it's in an issue of the flash player on the Solaris or it's Just a diet completely wait a minute. I'll try to kill this beast. This looks like real Time for a break I have to restart the computer Seems that the flesh flesh in this this version is killing me completely I told you that next time ties a hobby and it's a community thing entirely. It's no way related to some business Not yet So basically until until the mission starts and I till I can log in again because it's booting from this removable hard drive What the point of the demo was that After you finish the installation of the build build dependencies for the genome session into the Change route into the zone you hold the zone and again You use the ZFS snapshots to basically build the forks or build the clones of this environment in order to do the so instead of Builder build genome session and unpacking the targe is that rooting into the targe is that installing all the build dependencies Rebuilding it everything copying out of the change room. You simply do the clone of this of this built environment Logging into it in a second and you just start building your package Of course, assuming the build dependencies are not Changing but for a personal work cycle if you are doing it on your desktop, you know what you are doing might save time So I don't know if I understand it correctly. Can you repeat it? Well, suppose you have a Pbuilder 6 and you only have some packages after having the currently Yeah, right Yeah, so while the question was basically if you if you have one original Route file system of the of the Pbuilder and if you clone it and then do the modifications in the clone Of course these modifications are only in the clone and there is no way to propagate them back This was the snapshot is for so you either delete or the first one and just continue from the second one I don't think if it's possible to delete the one as long as it contains some clones because there is like a Transsectional journal in the file system itself that prevents you from using the origin as long as you depend on the origin in the clones But you will just descend from the hierarchy. So you will do another clone Maybe this kind of technique would also be possible using union fs if we have a Pbuild environment for a certain package and we just Put the RAM disk with union fs over it. Isn't this the same? So so if then if you're running the the Pbuilder all rides will go into the RAM disk Which is overlaid using union fs Most of the packages built with the Lipsy actually I have I will have a slide with some statistics afterwards and The situation is that basically most of the GNU stuff you can just compile These are just the compiler glitches linkers glitches Lip-tool things configure animalese linux Related bashisms in the same some of the shell strips reliance on the pads But nothing normal. Well, just classical portability issue There is nothing like reporting sick winning or unix environment windows Like it's it's very similar. Actually the systems are very similar in the core So I will try to seek with the end because I don't believe the video is broken. I think it was the slash issue I write exactly so. Yeah, so actually the point here is that it took four minutes to actually Create or install the build dependencies for the genome session into this 90 zone so I will actually at the moment hold the original zone and create the clones and The clones will be Well, their goal the goal is to speed up the creation of the clean environment where you can rebuild your package Knowing everything is fine Sorry, we should have told me that Cloning the zone and logging into it by ZFS clone three seconds So that's the point. That's the point basically these snapshot features of ZFS Can be used Very effectively to create virtual machines basically clean environments in order to speed up things dramatically So let me open the presentation The question was why should I care? So well, this is one of the things basically open sorries has got some really interesting Oh What's this? I thought it's redone in order to not break it Another of the things why should you care? Apart from ZFS and detris is the binary compatibility. It's it's something It's something that is really rocking And absolutely unknown in the linux world where you have to I when I was listening yesterday at the talk with the Binary modules on even the source modules for the linux kernel and red packaging all these I mean devian has red has got has done a great job with the module assistant easing these things and making it as easy as possible But is there really a way to ship? three versions of the driver for three different kernels with three different configurations And not even talking about that you are not going to upload everything into unstable because it just doesn't make sense This problem does not exist on open sorries the api or api better say binary binary Interface of the kernel for the drivers has not changed for past four years and the drivers are still working and new ones are still working So it simply does not exist For example I have Open source project I'm sorry, I can't comment on this well, but we at least make sure that this doesn't happen with the things that are coming from some So I can't guarantee that this is not going to happen with the third party stuff, of course, but It's about the people so some of the history of nexenta initially was created by the nexenta system startup That is still existing that that is still in some way Founding the projects and sponsoring the project It's hosted in stand for at the moment. Uh, there are like eight core Developers like me basically the people who take care of the of the things and the rest something comes from the community I'm well saying here that we are sharing some of the principles We are an open source project like any other else and we are trying to well get The best from the community and learn the best from the community The mission is to create open sorries for human beings. Well, I consider myself to be human being and Well, you know where this wording comes from and I think it's a great description for for the future linux philosophy and well unix philosophy in general The best combination of open sorries that we engineer you wouldn't Should be no surprise. You should have seen that this basically works These are the tools I have just enumerated here that fsd trace zones Pete's tech. I think it's available for linux at the moment already. If not, it should not be a Problem of the thing to write it and the Kernel debugger live kernel debugger very very useful. Think if you are doing some hard kernel stuff non-existent in the linux world You know the debium part of the story So well the state you have been asking how many of the packages can be recompiled basically at the moment what we have Is like 12k packages from various sources like ubuntu debium various components of the systems that have been At least recompiled and installed It doesn't say anything about whether they are running or sick folding in various parts of the code But that's the thing. So some of the examples another thing is the maintenance most of them It's not that like the out of the box compilation. It always contains at least some of the small things to to fix the linking issues and I have not I don't have the stats But it would be really easy to just ssh to the to the subversion repository that is hosting the source code of all these And just do some of the svm diffs because basically what we store there is we store there The upstream upstream for us is ubuntu or debium including the packaging information everything And then we branch it to another directory and there we do the modifications for us So it's very simple to take the diff between this and Produce some statistics of how many files and lines have been changed in order to compile and next and But I think for for most of the clean packages that just configure make make install very well with cdbs There are no problematic parts. The problematic parts are the pieces like open office firefox thunderbird and these these ugly things using More homes I Probably use the mic Are you building with the site to power or gcc? Good question. Most of the things we compile with gcc and some exceptional things like Open office. We do compile it sans trio because it simply doesn't compile onto lorries with gcc It's just a matter of like fixing few make files and things like this, but it doesn't work. It's a question of manpower I think you had a question Interested in that a type of good Just that you have to update So are you This next century or is it really that you have so many Yeah, that's a very good question and you're hitting the most problematic part of of this little man basically the build failures are Various types of things. For example, one of the things I was fixing for Thunderbird Was that it was not linking properly. It was seq folding and by looking into the code I've seen that it's seq folding get the zero zero zero something So it basically the linking step did not understand the symbol versioning and Something that is called filter symbols on solaris in solaris lips really beats right and other things and Toolchain problem basically the benio tails benio tails Specifically ld does not work correctly on solaris under certain edge cases And if you hit these edge cases, you get really interesting situations where the linking is succeeding But it basically resolves the absolute addresses of the symbols in the wrong way So things like these invocation of the command line. I mean if you are invoking ld directly You might need to alter the switches that you are passing to ld because on linux most of the various different shared Linking combinations produce the same result, but it's not true for other platforms. So you have to find you these things Kind of fix fix the upstream linking process What are the questions you have for for this part in a minute? So I was wondering In this toolchain, how much are what are your actual intentions? Do you ever plan to port it to glpc or I mean because you obviously included the other ld So where is this going? What are your directions? That's a good question Basically it would be probably a community consensus. So I don't have to direct answer it I personally would like or what okay, I will say what what sun is doing sun is shipping gcc I'm using some linker because some linker has got better features when it comes to symbol versioning and backward compatibility things. So they basically ignore the benio tails This will be a great thing, but we have to fix all those all those 20k packages to link properly and fix these linking errors Which I don't know if it can be solved by live tool, but which is a really huge amount of work So the logical thing would be To use just gcc and gnu benio tails and just forget the sun stuff completely because it would better fit the gnu world of Side of things but again because there are these bugs and one has to fix the box and at the moment There are not enough solaris users that have the gnu knowledge in order to fix these bugs So it will probably come with time because these are really the edge cases and benio tails and gnu and fsf folks are Really hard to crowd to their worst and the beyond people and I don't need it in a band but they really For them this is the religion kind of Thing And while the third option would be to just use the sun compiler and some linking Which according to some sun engineers would produce the best best results, but this has got the Common line incompatibility issues and again you have to kind of fix all the 20k packages The great thing is that basically sun studio version 12 Is available for linux and for solaris It's really downloadable, but it's not really redistributable still And it has got some But that would get fixed. It's just a matter of time and convincing the right people And it's got some kind of gcc compatibility Command line layer. So if you don't invoke ld directly, but through the gcc You're pretty much getting to the same command line strings just using the different binary So again, this is a matter of time to to fix these things. We are living in very interesting era at the moment Because it would it would mean this would mean that Sun studio can be packaged for deviant can be used for optimization of multi-traded programs because we claim that sun studio Does better than gcc in certain cases. I don't have the statistics to prove it Yeah, I was talking about the binary compatibility style. We do take Compatibility seriously at sun and we do take it seriously with nexenta as well So at the moment we are living in the skis of running world where we want to be compatible with the g and uwm This type of world and as well with the solaris type of world so pkg add and pkg rm are the solaris variants of dkg So they are basically implemented using aline aline does support the conversion of these packages for for years But there is this problem With the environment basically Solaris environment if you go into any existing version of solaris Does use different tools than gnu? You probably know these frameworks about tar about the sum and about well basically any gnu tool that is available This kind of re-implementation and in some way incompatible with the gnu with the gnu world So I think now comes the other demo about The compatibility and how what's what's our approach to it? We hope we will survive Not them well As long as there is no representation after me, it's fine so favorite open solaris tools favorite Debian tools So you see that these tools are basically coming from from something sum w If you go to any recent open solaris You will basically find these packages their Names remain the same across the systems You see the binary solaris i386 architecture You see the structure of the repository is basically the old one This sum w packaging stuff is what you basically get if you download open solaris and recompile it yourself So this is this is something called owen This is the demonstration of the default behavior. So if you're working with nexenta, we are kind of Assuming that you are the young guy who grown up on Linux and who expects the things to be gnu But it's compatible Yeah, so by switching this variable, you're basically you're basically switching the behavior of the system You will see Don't be too fast I have a bonus question, but I don't have a t-shirt with me I haven't gotten a sun marketing material Our favorite answer So those who haven't played with detrace, I would encourage you to go for it Open solaris So really you should take a look at detrace Otherwise, you will not be competitive on the IT market anymore. It should be a self-explanatory Question for your bonus question. How does this work? Just try to guess simpler No simpler I don't know Right, we're in the t-shirt Basically, there is an exec be easiest call that is the Main point of everything that does exec and fork or fork and exec So it's it's there is some some replica that that the text is this variable and dispatch is the invocation I would I would have another question at the moment. What's the drawback of it? It's here Can you elaborate more? Yeah, no, fine fair enough. Yeah, it's it's actually Kind of evil because you can't rely on the path Being consistent. You can't see the files in the system. You can start the pin as age But actually what is being involved with something else? So it's got some drawbacks, but Looking into the Future and into the past for the compatibility reasons I think it's pretty clever in order to moderate the binary compatibility whereas Changing the roads because if you have to be 100 person compatible with the past you can't evolve This is what open slurries is facing at the moment and all these flamers called user g and user f s f w It's really it's really it's not it's not fun because we take the binary So if you have um sun and personality set zero artist onset, um, are you essentially just using The solaris kernel and the whole user space is a new system or do you still rely on some of the solaris base tools Let me just continue the demo. So we will work with it a little bit more to see what's actually happening So we have you have seen that there are some binaries being involved from user sun So you can see that these are these are actually the binaries that are there These should be all of the binaries that are delivered by open solaris and that are conflict with g and u So you see there are some interesting things like true and false and they are And well by by by using dpk g search, but basically I will do some tricks to Find find the people so I can't say what these packages are doing because we have these eight cars naming scheme for the packages But if you look a little bit more that for example Sun wt o o is So you see that some of the files are in their locations where you expect them to be On the solaris system and some of some of them have been relocated Which is the evil part of things that we are basically can be breaking the compatibility Exactly So basically the point is behind this that if you do pkg add Of the driver or of any legacies solaris package You first or pkg and rubber switch the environment for you and the post package post install scripts and everything is running in the sun context Like in 95 of this percent of the sun context And this uh as we were talking about yesterday it works for the drivers and it works for the simple packages It doesn't work for the huge packages That was the demo Continuing at the moment We are Very probably going to follow the ubuntu structure of the repositories for the simple part that we want to go commercial And we want to let the user know what is supported and what is not supported We don't care too much about the licenses So I really like the ubuntu model which we're basically you care about licensing you tell the user But you also tell him what you support and what not which is important for some people to know where you can where they can push the money So at the moment we mainly concentrate on ubuntu and Next centric development integration of the gnu and open solaris you have seen already the zones for example the zones On on the plain open solaris. They work a little bit different play The packaging in solaris is different. So the integration in next center basically Involves the integration of the bootstrap into this process that you use the bootstrap to prepare the infrastructure And there are some other things This is the flow How it at the moment happens There has there had been a path Where we are basically for some things going through the devian We are kind of we are alpha so we can play with the things So we can experiment and see what works and what doesn't work Because we wanted to have the nice desktop We have chosen this model at the moment another demo Again, you will see some of the Features of open solaris Brandy, brandy, brandy Here we go So you should Recognize these commands from the first demo. It will be again about the zones But now it will be about the feature that is called branding of the zones So I will basically create the brandy zone and the brand will be LX like Linux Linux zone implements the syscall api of or api of linux 2.4 kernel You see that the brand has changed to LX I'm now taking the root file system image that was created using the dev bootstrap again just dev bootstrap entire great tool And I will just install the zone from this root file system You see the ZFS partner again This should be familiar for you This is a Minor issue You see the edge manager It's okay. It's like a fake linux, but it's just as the real edge So for the demonstration purposes, I will again recompile screen package So that you know by heart what commands are involved in the devian rules Just to convince you that there is no trick in it. I was able to install everything from sarge Everything from from the ubuntu into the zone with the plain dev bootstrap at the moment It's just that simple So you see that the packages are again resulting in the in the main file system And now comes the cloning. You have already seen the cloning using using ZFS snapshots and I will basically do the same thing But for linux branded zones now the more interesting thing Before report de-trace to linux kernel Let's see if you can de-trace the linux applications On open solars I will be basically tracing the open syscall to see what files are being opened if i'm doing something in the zone Cloning the penguin one second per one penguin So what are we working on at the moment? We are trying to get out version 1.0 Which will be called server storage edition Basically because of the fact that it integrates nicely apt zones and zfs Which is interesting for the server things We have kind of agreed on the Dappletrape as big face Mainly because it's got warranty support for some more four years, which is a Which is not a moving target for us And which has got a great selection of packages in main basically What we had decided to do is to drop the graphical support Which means that we will not officially support it will probably it's in the repository It's working but there are some bugs and the maintenance is just complicated That's why we were talking about the work of ubuntu Is doing with Debian and we will we have to join somehow and Some of the features that we are waiting for zfs root is already integrated partially Open Solaris is able to boot from the zfs file system But it has to follow some of the rules from the root file system It can be mirrored, but it might not be the rate 5 rate 3 for various reasons. We can talk about later on We want to have the smf Manifests called for all the demox and services basically smf is this some re-implementation of initd scripts as if we don't have enough re-implementation of the initd scripts Yeah, we don't need to wait for the gi to stabilize and we don't need to wait for all the Important desktop related things to be put back into the open source kernel because these things are progressing very well And but still there is a lot of things to go for I mean over the past year hardware abstraction ladder Some 3d things were done I don't even remember the names of these components that are necessary for the desktop to work out to mount the volumes and all these things So it's it's progressing very well on this front, but it needs some more months to finish So we're not going to wait for a good next end We have been already talking about obstacles the compilation stuff and the schizophrenia to not be Like sure and what to use and what to not use Plenty of choice too much of choice Yeah And if you want to get involved you can go to this website. It's still alive, but at the moment we are doing some massive changes So you can expect having the next center dot org website going live There are some things that we Kind of don't want to use the gnu and solaris anymore because these are both trademarks as we figure out And this is kind of well sensitive So from the brand management of the perspective we will go with the next center Time for questions You talked about grub support for the defense and also different kinds of partitions like vdark partitions I don't know much about this to talk about it. What I know is that basically sun has done some modifications to the grub one point x versions In order to be able to boot open solaris on intel platform As far as I know these modifications haven't made it upstream Probably because grub one point something is unmaintained at the moment and grub two point something Is not released yet. So these modifications are lying in the In the on source code repository and they are completely irrelevant. So if you are playing with the next center On your real hard drive be careful not to overwrite the grub for solaris with the grub from ubuntu, for example Because the solaris It's called detox partitions or slices. They are basically different beasts and they need special Support in grub in order to find them all the hard drives and to find the kernel in there So if you use the grub from next center, it will put aureal linuxes and everything else But if you use it lysers, I will want to that's probably all I can say about it What about next center on spark hardware? Good questions. I'm always out this question. It's a matter of people and time Nothing more. I don't see any other obstacles. I'm going to have a lot of questions Yeah Well, first of all about you last night you were saying that the new people aren't interested in fixing the boats Is it that they are not interested in Investigating the boats or in fixing them also use and patches. Are you trying to fix them on your side? Well, that's that's what I said if there is not enough exposure And not enough bright people working on the open source kernel from the gm inside of things You can't fix them. I mean I tried some of the things But for example, this one with the wrong resolution of the filter symbols. I can't simply go for her I have found a workaround that works like changing made files in order to make it link to software But looking at the code I can't fix it So it needs someone else and I although I do have a reproducible case And I think I didn't send the instructions how to reproduce it It's for for someone to fix it. It means get the open storage system get the gcc get the program compile it And this is not very easy at the moment Probably not but probably there are no official patches to be produced for this. So it's like Because there was another comment that some people are not going to fix this Because we do have our own linker and we don't have our own compiler and we don't care about the gcc And it would be probably very honest for me to say that The same thing that FSS people think about the some Solaris engineers The same thing some of the Solaris engineers think about the FSS people So it's kind of a stupid that work that On the workshop the work can resolve probably Well, I'm talking to a few FSS people and they seem to be not excited about The new Solaris and Nexentra and so on Maybe people from the new project which are who are not directly linked to the FSS Are there many people from the Nexentra project in the debut you made to work here? I don't think so. I don't think so And the moment the names of the people I know that are working for Nexentra I haven't seen any of the names on the email as the official people So probably not The I will add some one one comment yours for me Think this is the reason why we want to get Nexentra 1.0 out as soon as possible To make it easy for people to get the c8 installed it and work on it and fix the box So I'm very happy to hear that you are saying that they are interested in this Yeah Well, we're out of time now, but if anyone wants to ask other questions, please hang around So I think I will be around so if we can we can talk more and you have it running here If you want to play with it, it's on my removable high drive so you can rate it