 Good afternoon Welcome to the Durham Planning Commission The members of the Durham Planning Commission have been appointed by the City Council and the County Board of Commissioners as an advisory board to the elected officials You should know that the elected officials have the final say on any issue before us tonight If you wish to speak on an agenda item tonight, please go to the table to my left and Sign up to speak for those of you who wish to speak Please state your name and your address clearly when you come to the podium Please speak clearly and into the microphone Each side those speaking in favor of an item and those in speaking in opposition to an item Will have ten minutes to present for each side The time will be divided among all persons wishing to speak Finally all motions are stated in the affirmative So if a motion fails or ties the recommendation is for denial Thank you Can I have the roll call please? Mr. Outer Mr.. Brun Mr.. Busby Miss Freeman President mr. Ghosh Mr.. Gibbs Mr.. Harris mr. Hornbuckle Miss Hyman President mr. Johnson Mr.. Kinchin present mr. Miller present mr. Van Mr.. Whitley To the agenda Staff has no adjustments to request tonight Thank you The next item I have is the approval of the minutes for November 1st 2016 I do have two corrections that I need to Make before We get to the approval process. I have two individuals that are listed as Unexcuse absences. I do want to report that Both of those individuals had provided some advanced information. So I'm going to need a motion from this panel to excuse absences first for Andre van on November 1st and For Commissioner Melvin Whitley on November 1st So moved second It has been moved and properly second that we grant excuse absences for Commissioner Andre van and for Commissioner Melvin Whitley for the November 1st Meeting all in favor of Yes, I'm sorry. Mr. Miller did second So all in favor of this motion, let it be known by the usual sign of I All opposed and So we can enter those as excused absences. I do have one other thing that under Hyman Even though 30 extensions extensions would be nice. It's a 30-day extension. Thank you The other corrections to the minutes the chair recognized commissioner gauche My name is spelled wrong. That's all it's got a e in it which it actually doesn't Are there other corrections to the minutes? Hearing none wait a minute commissioner Brian No, I was just going to make a motion that we approve the minutes as amended plus the attached consistency statements second Motion by commissioner Brian second by commissioner buzz be that the minutes be approved with corrections and The consistency statement all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by raising your right hand All opposed Thank you The next item we have public hearings the first item Creekside Commons Case number z one six zero zero zero zero one Can we have our staff report, please? Good evening Kyle Taylor with the planning department. This case was continued in your last meeting in November To give the applicant time to address some concerns for the residents and the planning Commission There have been two changes since previously and I've since the previous time that you saw it And I will go over those in my presentation The applicant for this project is still Stephen Freeman It is still located within the city's jurisdiction It is still a request from residential suburban But the new density that they're proposing is a plan to develop the residential 5.0. It was previously a 6.3 oh to the acreage is twenty six point four six one acres and The proposal is now for a hundred thirty two town home unit for a hundred thirty two town homes is what they're proposing And it was previously a hundred and sixty nine units As stated this is consistent with the PDR requirements for the zoning district with an acres twenty six point four six one acres The density of five five dwelling units per acre maximum height of forty two feet and impervious service maximum of thirty point four This was originally thirty percent on the last revision This project is still consistent with the future land use map and The adopted plans of policies shown on this slide and in your staff report And staff still determines that this request is consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies Everything else remains the same as previously Presented to you in the staff report reflects that Thank you and staff is available for any questions. I do have two individuals who it I do have two individuals who have signed up to speak for this case Attorney Ken Spalde door of North Carolina and George Stan see So we'll start with Mr. Spalde Good afternoon Madam chair lady and members of the planning Commission. My name is Ken Spalding. I represent the applicant again in this matter We are back in front of you after having a public hearing at the last meeting And we requested a deferral at that time so that we could meet with the neighbors again we also had heard from the planning Commission some of you members that You felt that the six point three units in acre was sort of high density and I think the one of the representatives of the neighborhood It indicated that they were comfortable or he was comfortable with five point zero We heard from the planning Commission members that they sort of had a Comfort with five point zero and we were at six point three So we definitely felt we needed a deferral to meet back with the residents and to come back before you We have done this as staff has pointed out. We have met the Our comprehensive plan our policies and plans of the city of Durham We also have Worked very hard to try to come to a resolution as it relates to the residents in this Commission What we have done is that we have agreed as you see from what staff had pointed out To the five point units in acre that took place after the developer met with the neighbors and the residents and just Discussed the pros and cons and certain Issues that they wanted to talk about which we addressed and have talked to and Done the best that we could whether it meets all of the requests of everyone that remains to be seen The most important part that we worked on and the developer went back and got with his people to see if it was at all possible to maintain a viable project and development by being able to reduce it to five point five five five point four or five point zero and they heard you loud and clear and They heard what the representative it indicated they request a five point. Oh, and we have done five point. Oh Units per acre that dropped it down from six point three units to five point. Oh from a hundred and sixty nine town homes to a hundred and thirty two town homes that reduced both traffic school Students and so we have really really I mean really worked hard to try to address the concerns of residents and of this planning Commission So we very much would appreciate your support. Thank you Thank you, Mr. Stanfield Good evening Madam Chair members commission George stands the out 115 co-field circle president of Stewart The only other thing that I wanted to To do tonight was to add a committed element That we have made staff aware of and that is to commit to town homes now This has a big impact on the traffic and and so I Know that transportation department is Available to give you the new numbers, but we are committing to town homes only at five point zero units per acre Thank you Thank you, I have two other individuals who are signed up to speak for I have Ella Woods Ella Woods and Isaac Woods Good evening commissioners. My name is Isaac Woods. I reside at 52 23 after church road That is the property that is adjacent to this development. We share property lines. We have seen this area grow Tremendously, but one thing I can say about this developer is they have reached out to the neighbors to satisfy all the needs and have Communicated with us and it would be a shame for us not to let a developer set this high standard Where they've compromised they've added things and really they've offered to add other amenities if they could get it up Above five point oh, but this neighborhood is a nice neighborhood My family have lived in this neighborhood since the 1800 my great grandfather purchased this land adjacent to we own About 20 acres adjacent to this property if you're familiar with it We go all the way down from Creeks hot elementary school Furn to road and back to 40 and we've been looking for a developer that's sensitive to our issues regards to the traffic the amenities the paths the walkways that we need in this neighborhood and I have not seen all my life in Durham a developer come before you and reach out to the neighborhood to bring Amenities to a neighbor that's adjacent to this property. We didn't get that when they build Creeks side We didn't get that when they build the other subdivisions over Creeks side So I ask you consider that when my great-grandfather purchased this From slavery after he was released But you could think about that he would definitely be pleased for you to consider that this day and time that we have Developers that adjacent to the property and reach out and say look let's be a good neighbor What do you need and they've spent to demonstrate here tonight where they went from six point three to five point? And there's some other amenities that you don't know about that they've added in there But we need to reach out to this developer and set a standard here for the city of Durham But this is how developers work in Durham and I ask you to please vote for this project and prove it Thank you for your thank you. Are you also speaking for Ella Woods? Ella Woods is my mother Okay Good evening to everyone My name is Ella Woods and I live at 52 23 At this church road Durham, North Carolina to seven seven zero seven I have lived there in a house that was built in 1964 Up until this time. I'm still living there. I was born in a house on the corner of Burned and road and after church road. I was born there So I have lived 84 years on the property or during and to the Property That's in question and I can't see where it would harm anybody They let everybody else Developers put what they want to up and They skipped over us two or three times With no water and with no sewer. The only reason we have water is because they had to bring it by my house Not because they wanted to but because they had to cause the line from Pope Road Wasn't big enough. So they had to bring it from 40 and I live there and Nobody no other developer that have built there in the last 20 years have came and Tried to talk to us or tell us what's going on a lot times. We didn't even know about the meetings at all So we have water, but we don't have no sewer and We'll be glad to support Anybody that will help us put sewer there. We can't build on it on our land because it's they said don't perk But yet and still you can't get no sewer unless you got Five or six thousand dollars to put into it to have it run there and nobody No developer in none of those avers have come and talked to us They look at us as if we shouldn't be there and I'm for the Rhine company to have six point three units per acre and The five point is over because in the other meetings it have always been six Point three so why can't we let them have six point three? I'm gonna be affected by it more than anybody else. So People that live two blocks a Half a mile away is complaining about the traffic. There's other roads you could take Besides coming through on every search road, but you won't come through there because it's Easy way and I live there. So I am for the Ryan Homes townhomes to be built six point three units per acre Thank you very much. Thank you so much Now I have a number of individuals who have signed up to speak against Michael Cutlip and I'll call three Ted Sezen ski and Adam jewelry So we'll start with Michael Cutlip That's it one more fourth one Okay Madam chair on Michael Cutlip. We actually have a prepared presentation in Ted Sezen ski was planning to do the first piece Is that is that all right with you? Okay, I'm gonna have to divide sorry Adam Adam Jerry will be doing the first okay I'm gonna have to divide the ten minutes among all of the speakers and if I need to extend it Right now There's also Brian Darden. So I want to make sure No, that's okay, then this is fine and we can I think we've got four minutes Madam chair just for clarification. So we have three total speakers against. I think we're trying to figure out So three three total Three for ten minutes three total for ten minutes. So it won't take that long Okay, is that Showing correctly. Okay. All right. So thank you. My name is Adam. Jerry. I live at three Wesley Wood Drive in West and Downs and I'm here to start the discussion on behalf of our communities against the Creekside Commons rezoning and Last last meeting we we had discussed about how six point three was triple the density of the existing Communities around it's all single-family homes around the Creekside Commons rezoning tract and That would triple the density the comprehensive development plan and the UDO both site that you should have consistent Development across and in consistent character across the community and this would not be consistent with The current areas that was one of the main issues that we had now the developer has come back and today We've learned that they've they've come down to five. So we greatly appreciate that and And we still feel there are some Some issues that we have learned since the last meeting and also there are some issues that I don't believe they're fully addressing With regards to also the traffic and that they're going to be creating out of this development and the the school overcrowding issues with regards to the school overcrowding So last time we talked about how Durham evaluates everything on a system-wide capacity level and right now Creekside enrollment is over 900 students Currently the capacity is at 764 approximately per the Lee Village study that was done on behalf of Durham County The the school policy prohibits walking across the the street without any kind of guardian for the kids and right now one of her big issues is that the crossing of Ephesus Church Road by the students is really dangerous there are cars Especially in the morning time because school starts right at rush hour and you have kids crossing there you have parents trying to block traffic It's really dangerous and this development only adds to that and we would like some more consideration put into how to deal with that traffic and Although the the densities come down there have been considerations and other developments for traffic studies or perhaps a traffic light and That is something that we would very much appreciate Ryan to investigate now the other issue is that Creekside is over capacity and the the UDO Sites that basically the mobile classrooms, which they currently have cannot match the quality of education that a full facility can can Allow students to have and right now There's still no plan for another school that I'm aware of to be built and all these kids You know West and Downs was built and the other communities around and that they're very close to Creekside So that's very attractive for families. And so although there's a minimal amount of students. They're supposed to be added to the the Creekside Elementary School by the development. I feel that this is probably understated because of the amount of kids that are coming already From West and Downs. And so here you can see a picture of the trailers at the fifth grade has to Go to school with every day Okay, thank you Ted Solzensky I live in the West and Downs subdivision at 53 14 West and Downs Drive I'm going to review some of the pictures of traffic and discuss that quickly here the bulk of the traffic for Creekside elementary comes from the South that traffic comes up 54 Makes a left turn out to Farrington Road and then another left turn out to Ephesus Church and they make a left turn into the parking lot there and then coming back reverse the procedure And The congestion is just incredible Coming back you may sit for five light cycles before having turned left on the 54 from Farrington Road And the cars waiting to drop off students at the Creekside frequently backs up the entire length of the entrance drive into Ephesus Church First picture is northbound on Farrington a little ways from 54 You can see at that point. It's backed up Continuing a little farther up towards towards Ephesus Church more congestion Looking in the opposite direction. This is congested when kids the vehicles leave after dropping off students that's 54 up there another picture similar looking in the Opposite direction at that same location. You can see all the vehicles coming From Ephesus Church Now we have some pictures at the school itself Looking towards Farrington Road along Ephesus Church You can see the stoplight in the background from Farrington and all the traffic approaching the school and trying to turn left in vehicles Going out some of them trying to turn left and this is the exact intersection where the subdivision is going to go directly across And we're very concerned about this situation Looking the opposite direction towards Creekside again, there's the congestion People trying to turn left into the school Okay, that's my presentation. Thank you Thank you Good evening Madam Chair members of the Planning Commission. My name is Michael Cutlip. I live at 9th tea house court And I'm going to talk a little bit about Some complication some additional complications of the possible increase in traffic So the primary entrance to the development is going to be the same as the primary entrance to Creekside elementary Which is the largest elementary school in both Durham and Orange County at approximately 900 students as Ted showed in a slide just a moment ago The entrance and exit of Creekside is very very challenging around rush hour times and during the afternoon so This is a overhead view of where that intersection is going to be that primary turn from Going into Creekside is coming from 40 from Parrington Road And of course the primary entrance and exit to the development is going to be right there as well I would anticipate that the majority of people Leaving development will be going to 40 going to work as are the majority of the parents leaving Creekside So they're all competing for that thoroughfare down at this is church to go down to Parrington so of course Anyone turning left out of the development would be competing with this exact same congestion all right One of the things that we noticed looking at the application was at the current traffic assumptions for the property or based on the maximum possible development currently under the current zoning which is 33 single-family homes which based on about a 11 trips per day 360 370 roughly estimated trips currently there are only two homes on the property Which means that the actual impact is going to be far higher than is stated in the application So the application Estimates a proposed impact of an additional 636 Vehicles vehicle vehicle trips since there's actually only two homes on that entire part on all of those parcels The actual impact would be far higher at around 900 Increase on a traffic on Ephesus Church So the last traffic study that was done was in 2013 West and Downs, which is the large adjacent neighborhood was completed in 2013 So depending on when that traffic study was done all of the traffic from the roughly 78 homes in Western downs may not be included in that So that could be an additional 860 trips per day already above what that traffic study is telling you So there's the current capacity you see for Farrington Road and Ephesus Church as pulled from the developers application and The latest source for that to 2013 department transportation Count so of course one of our biggest concerns is pedestrian safety and How do we ensure the pedestrian safety to and from Creekside Elementary? The developer proposed a crosswalk at the main entrance, but the main entrance is not where the Predominance of pedestrian traffic is found all of the students walking to and from Creekside predominantly cross at the intersection of George King Road Western Downs Road on the other side and Ephesus Church The primary vehicle crossing is what you saw in that picture the exit to Creekside elementary and where the primary entrance to the development would be Now Ryan Holmes has addressed many of these concerns. The density is great We have possible water management concerns, but we look to you the planning commission to help us Negotiate the traffic and the pedestrian concerns. We're merely the residents that live there. Thank you Thank you. I Have no other individuals who are signed up to speak on this particular issue so I'm going to close the public hearing and Now give our commissioners an opportunity to ask questions Do I have commissioners who would like to speak? I'll start to to my right commissioner gauche commissioner Johnson Commissioner Busby and to my left Commissioner Gibbs Commissioner Miller Okay Okay, Commissioner Alturk Madam clerk before we get started. I want the record to reflect that commissioner Freeman is present I'm sorry because it's like when I look back I did not see you and I got thank you Okay Let's start with commissioner gauche Thank You madam chair First I want to say Thank you both the developer and for the neighbors for their presentations. It's a very thoughtful presentation from the adjacent property owners I do want to say that I appreciate the decrease in density To 5.0. I think that shows, you know an ability to compromise and Ultimately, I think that it's probably a better Project than what was originally Submitted and if this process is helpful in making better projects then you know I'm glad you guys are taking every opportunity to make use of the process. I Did want to address some of the things that were brought up by you all in the back there So one thing I did notice and I don't think this is your fault at all but in the staff report The assumption for the max use of the existing zoning was based off of 33 single family lots and That was based evidently off of our zoning. My understanding is that that those parcels are actually zoned our RS 20 and so Under the current zoning, I think you could get more like 58 lots than the 33 that is listed there and actually every Other chart in the staff report. It does mention the RS 20 So I think that I think that's correct. I think 58 single-family homes is probably what's there So I think actually what's stated in the staff report for road impacts is is Accidentally overstated now. I do appreciate your point, which was that there's only two existing homes there currently But unfortunately, I don't I Don't find much value in that just because what we're talking about is Reusing this property in some way redeveloping it and so to me, I think the more appropriate You know the the more appropriate data point to look at is what you could put there under the current zoning And so I mean, there's no doubt though I mean your point is well taken the proposed development will add traffic to the road network No doubt about it. I will say that And I don't I I think it was stated that emphasis Or the the Creekside elementary is the largest elementary school at 900 students I appreciate that in Durham We do look at a system-wide approach and I think one of the reasons we do that is because we Bus students to different schools and I actually appreciate that. I think it's an important topic actually Because you know, there are other places in the country where they have neighborhood schools and that can oftentimes result in Inequity, I mean so The fact that when we look at these development plans or proposed developments that we look at a system-wide Capacity in the school. I think that makes sense because we do Spend a lot of funds on on getting students to different schools across Across our city and you know, I went to Durham public schools my entire life So I think they're great schools and I'm I'm glad that I was able to take a bus to a school That wasn't right next to me, but a school. I wanted to go to nonetheless. So I think you know, I Understand that there's a capacity issue at Creekside. I don't think that this development is going to make it even more over capacity I think that the more likely scenario is that Students will get bused to different schools and I don't think that that is a tragedy I think that's actually a good use of our school system and as far as the Traffic along the pictures of the traffic along or in this area There's there's no doubt that there's an existing traffic problem And I appreciate that that you don't want that problem to get worse But I'm not sure what you would ask the developer to do it seems like You want it to be better? I want it to be better too, but I don't know that it's fair to ask the developer to do that and you know, they're they're Proposal to put a crosswalk at their entrance. I think that makes good sense I understand that currently the kids cross at a different intersection But that may be because there is no crosswalk for them to cross at at another location And perhaps it would it would make a better situation I don't know that but maybe it would be better if there were multiple crosswalks for the children to better disperse So I appreciate all the issues that you've brought and I will say I appreciate the work that the developers have done and I hope that everyone can see that through this process some compromise has been reached and And I think that's a good thing. I ultimately will support this project as it is presented today I think it's a better project than when it came to us months ago Thank you very much Thank you commissioner Johnson Thank You madam chair woman So commissioner goes highlights Some of the sentiments that I have here one I would like to think the developer for actually going back based off the feedback that was provided both by members of the adjacent communities and previous meetings and just feedback from my Peer council Commission members here As I listened to the concerns particularly from the neighbors of the adjacent that's adjacent to this property The concerns are the same and so I appreciate the density issue. I will say that you know with the 6.3 Density that we were presented with last time. I was not comfortable with that and I did hear that, you know the 5.0 if we the name some of the Neighbors said that if we can get to 5.0 that could that's something that we could live with so that happened and now we're dealing with the other but and that's the traffic and the school issue and so and echoing some of the the points that Commissioner ghost notice highlighted I guess the question would be it's like what what is the axe from the developer to a swage the fact that Right now the traffic is bad The pictures show this and the schools are crowded and so based off the presentation that I hear tonight It seems that since these issues are currently existing that essentially no development at all would be Supported because these issues persist and In thinking about Durham and where we're going with you know People we're grown. It's a growing city and we have to figure out how we're going to support this I think the question is how do we do it in a way where no one is going to get everything that they want? But there's a middle point where we can that everyone can get some of what they want and the question is well, what's happening and I don't know if anyone has an answer is no plans are and The works on I heard a regarding the school crowding issue with the trailers So what is the path for it for that like if the developer decides to pull the application tonight because? What for whatever it's like what's going to happen with the school crowding issue? That's still a question that needs an answer along with the traffic Issues and so I'm comfortable with supporting the the project as Presented tonight because I think that the developer has Worked tried to work with the neighbor the neighboring communities as I've heard from this seat and the fact that the Individual who was for this project stated that this is not something that usually that has happened in this area before It it has value for me because when I look at this map there has been development going on in this area and There has obviously it was enough support for it for bricks and concrete to get in the ground and so I just urge you know The neighboring and adjacent communities to continue to work to figure out How do you actually improve the traffic and the school crowding issues because the developer can't build a new school? You know the developer can't hit new road put new roads around this in the area here That's beyond their scope of of expertise and what they do So I think that with this project coming into this into this particular area in Durham that you know It is more consistent with you know what I would ideally Be comfortable with based on what I've seen before and with that I just wanted to say thank you to thank you to both Parties of the table for continuing to to talk to each other and get to a point where it seems like This can actually be a viable project. So thank you. Thank you commissioner L. Turk I Won't go long because a lot of the points that I wanted to make I've already been made by commissioners gauche and Johnson I I do commend the developer for going down to five Unis per acre. That's that's something that I think a number of us last month Mentioned I think it's something that Was brought up by a number of neighbors In the neighboring community and so I do commend the developer for that I you know, I understand that there are still traffic and school concerns This is I mean, this is a really tough issue I don't want to Belittle the the concern for traffic. I live on a very busy street in Durham But part of why I like living there is because it's close to the amenities that I like and You know, I think as commissioner Johnson mentioned, you know Durham is growing It's a vibrant community and I and so I would I'm hesitant to make a Decision against this proposal simply because of traffic. I think there are as as especially commissioner Johnson has mentioned Traffic is already a concern there and the school overcrowding is a concern and and as I look at this PowerPoint presentation that was just presented, you know, the question I think is right Can this be addressed by the developer or is this a city or do to issue? And I think the the answer to that is that we need to probably you know, we need to fight for More schools better roadways or you know more And I so I'm hesitant to vote against this development. I do think that You know, I I commended last month. I commended the neighbors for coming with very specific demands of the developer and now I have to commend the developer for for actually Addressing the main concern. I think that was that was addressed by both neighbors and the commissioners, which was the density So, thank you. Thank you Commissioner Busby Thank you, madam chair woman I Would echo a lot of the comments that were previously made I did want to hone in on one specific issue. Mr. Cutliffe I think was was very eloquent in honing in at the very end and saying the remaining concern is around traffic and pedestrian safety and I'm not going to get the intersection correct But there was the one photo that really stuck with me is where you have all the The parents turning in they're making a left turn off of Ephesus into the church And you're going to have a lot of the new development will be trying to make a similar turn and This is this sticks with me. This is a this is a problem This is the point that that has me debating if this is Going to be dealt with appropriately Mr. Spaulding mr. Stanzie. I don't know I'd invite you to offer your comments As you're coming to the microphone I'll say I drop my children at school across town You see people make a lot of bad decisions when they're running a minute or two late to work or to drop their kids at school and There people have been hit at my school this year because of pedestrians pedestrian safety. We have We have an officer out directing traffic and yet as you start dealing with lots of traffic and You don't have enough traffic lights That picture in that intersection leaves me deeply concerned about the safety of this development Everything else. I think we've done a good job here the developers The neighborhood you've all worked well together. This is how the process should work But that intersection that leaves me concerned because there clearly needs to be something else done there That that's just not gonna work. Someone's gonna get hurt Commissioner Busby that picture I think was shown the last time as well and You're right. It had an impression and impact on us So we just didn't leave it there and and ignore it what we did a Robert Winton spoke with What's his position I know it's Hugh Osteen, but what's his position in the school system? well, anyway, he's big big shot at the school system and and so What ended up happening was that Robert sat down with him. They discussed it. They looked at it They knew what was involved. We made it very clear that that would be a problem Not only for the existing neighbors now, but also for this project And one of the things he pointed out I don't Correct me if I'm wrong I don't think he was quite as aware of the imminent issue that exists out there now that he should have been quite frankly and Robert made him aware and I think that what he had indicated was that that they were gonna take another look at this We have indicated and I'm gonna say this because I think it's important. I'm a taxpayer too and You know areas like this They are safety concerns And we have sheriffs and we have policemen that we pay taxes for and they work extremely hard and at certain hours of the day in the morning and in the afternoon the City officials Know that these are unsafe situations all over Durham not just there and It is a responsibility and we made it clear that we are going to stand up on behalf of our neighborhood and Any other neighborhood in regard to raising this point that we are asking our city officials and our county officials Because I see them over at Jordan Making sure that Jordan is getting out. Okay. I see them over at this RTI High school or our research triangle high school Blocking us up when we're trying to drive to to make sure that people can get in and out and and so What my understanding has been and I think it's sad That is my understanding from you Osteen that that that they charge the schools for this am I correct Robert? They charge the schools for this. This is what we pay out Three-hour minimum for half-hour work Robert just said but I don't know about all that all I know is that we pay taxes and In the morning and in the afternoon if you know a robber is getting ready to take place You're gonna have law enforcement there. It's unsafe It's the same thing that our schools all of our schools should be able to have Sheriffs or policemen there at a time when we know it is unsafe for our citizens So this is something that I've mentioned that we talked about we're not just gonna sit still on it We didn't when we saw that picture you can see I'm a little riled up about it because I mean, it's just not right and and there'd be dead for a short period of time and Obviously if there's a murder taking place somewhere or robbery then they might not be able to be there, but Definitely the school system is for education and they should not have to pay For the services that our law enforcement officers do and this is not against the law enforcement officer I'm strong support of This is has to do with our officials who make those decisions As to what's gonna be needed there and and the school system should not be paying for this So the bottom line is that yes, it's an issue. Yes, this one is gonna be addressed It's one that we're gonna help get addressed as well. Thank you commissioner. Thank you. Thank you. It's just folding and Commissioner buzz me was that That's helpful if I may I was we did this last month And I think it was actually quite helpful to move this process toward a resolution I'd like to invite one of the the neighborhood representatives if if they're interested to share what they believe would help address the remaining Pedestrian and traffic issues and mr. Spaulding. Thank you for your comments. I appreciate that I also wish I was a big shot in my job title Maybe I can aspire to that someday Thank you for inviting me back up to speak Michael cut lip Yeah Like I said earlier, we're just the residents we live there We don't know what the best Particular course of action is in this case if it is a traffic study if it is, you know more review by someone on the on the you know department transportation If if a light is needed there if that's what alleviates at long-term, okay, that's great If it's you know a light at George King in Ephesus to stop traffic coming the other way then maybe that's that's it all of us are our I Ran out of time so I couldn't say this before not opposed to development on that land We know it's valuable We want development there to be successful because it helps our property values as well We don't want something to fail we understand that but those you know traffic and pedestrian concerns are are still our lingering issues and We don't have the data. We don't have the expertise to know what the right course of action is That's why we look to you the planning commission to help us in that regard And we also understand that the developer is going to be limited in what they can do and make commitments for That's that's very very clear and we respect that and we've been very very pleased at Ryan Holmes It's come to the table and worked with us so well and been able to make such compromises But you know like I said to your point what would help us? A an expertise opinion looking at that particular issue not looking at what is you know Just on paper based on historic traffic studies, but looking at the reality on the ground as it exists today Great. Thank you. It sure strikes me and I'm not an expert But as you just said it sure seems like we're gonna need a traffic light at Ephesus Church and George King Road quickly and I That just is gonna have to be dealt with if we want to make sure we actually have Safe development in this area. Thank you Thank you commissioner buzz be commissioner Gibbs Well, I'm gonna bring up a different point traffic and school overcrowding That's supposed to be funny, but there is Is not my phone Okay, I Agree with all the comments so far and I really do appreciate what Attorney Spaulding just the points that he just made and This development it has taken this development. I think to bring to light and expose What an issue is? school system wide and I think this development and I appreciate you're reducing the density These will become your neighbors not something to fear but They will be you'll find new friends and When they move in they're gonna be moving in into the same situations that you're experiencing now so they become your allies and The more people that can get together and put pressure whatever it takes and Anybody any official Will help you in any way possible To go to the correct authorities whether it's Department of Transportation the city the and their Traffic patterns how the traffic patterns stoplights and the crosswalks how all those things can be Rearranged to make a safe Walkable community from from this area to the school and I I just think it it's something that Not only for this specific Development, but it really is important and And if there are any people on the Board of Education the County Commissioners City Council The staff the staff can't do this the developer can't do this But I'm making a I'm making a challenge to you all These officials to take a look overall We We can find ways to Have bond issues with this that are the other whether it's for transportation which I am all for mass transit But there are important things our everyday life and quality of life and But that's That's the gist of my point and I thank you Commissioner Miller Thank You madam chairman I have some issues that I want to go over very quickly first one is a technical issue and I'll ask good George This is for you. I'm just looking at your design commitments on Your development plan assuming that I've got the one that was in our packet. It's the most recent one So looking at design commitment number one, I think you've got been changing things around there You've got some grammar problems. You're missing a verb It says all buildings will a maximum So I'll let you catch up to me because I want you to see it so this is It's Your design commitments, it's on the top page of your development plan Over in the box on the bottom down here bottom left right here Yeah, sure so The other thing that I notice is is that if you take that literally that means that you can have one two Cargarage for the building and I think what you're actually referring to is units not buildings. Isn't that right? All buildings will have two car garages Yeah, it doesn't say units it says buildings It seems to me that that needs to be rewritten to say what you mean not what not what you've got there Can you tell me right now how many units you'll have in a building? How long what you call a strip in another commitment there? How big how many units in a strip? two to six units per building Would you be willing to add when you rewrite that design commitment put put that in there sure thanks so that was the technical thing that I wanted to address and Then back to this traffic issue It's and I appreciate that the developer wants to put a crosswalk At its major point of intersection or it's it's connection with Ephesus Church Road It does seem to me though that what we really need is an improved pedestrian crossing At to the intersection of George King and Ephesus and I note that it's some just Probably distant point in the future George King is going to change its nature You guys have reserved right of way which may actually make this go faster Because we're gonna have a thoroughfare cutting across the middle of your property and then ultimately that's going to connect to Farrington And it seems to me if that facility gets built that's going to change the traffic pattern fairly dramatically That's still going to be a lot of in and out for the school But it is it's going to give the people who live in your development Another way to get in and out especially the people who do not want to get tangled up in the school traffic every day I was just talking with mr. Judge from this this city Transportation department. He says it's on the plan, but it's not funded So I don't know when that's going to occur How difficult would it be to put a pedestrian activated traffic light at the intersection of George King and Ephesus Church Road a Traffic signal. Yes, just for pedestrian or a complete traffic signal. Well, yeah, I mean it would Something where the pedestrians could push a button and get across Stop the traffic for a very however long it takes kids to get across Ephesus Church Road, I mean we can't commit to doing a traffic signal because that has to be done through a through a Warrant study. I understand that So no, we cannot do that I'm gonna ask mr. Judge if I may madam chairman had Whether or not based upon his experience that the warrants might be present in this case for some sort of pedestrian safety measure Pedestrian activated signal or light somewhere in there to help people get across that To break the traffic and help kids get across Yeah Bill judge with city Durham Department of Transportation Right now since George King Road really only serves I think one other subdivision further to the south and then becomes a gravel road There's probably not enough vehicular volume on George King Road or West Endowns where would meet the warrants for a traffic signal Whether or not there would be enough pedestrians crossing from West Endowns to the school I'm not aware of any such warrant study that's been looked at that would show that But as mr. Stanzio indicated in order to install a traffic signal whether for vehicles pedestrians or both There are standards and warrants volume thresholds that would have to be met So but based on your experience. Do you think there's Would this with the warrants would a warrant study be rewarded with a like here? My personal Belief is that it probably would not be warranted I'm fairly confident that the vehicular volume doesn't and I think it was one of the other speakers mentioned It was my understanding at least for a while that the the school actually was trying to discourage Children's because of the age from from walking the school unless accompanied by a parent or guardian So unless there were a significant number of children that were walking the school and crossing it It's probably not going to meet that warrant either. Thank you, mr. Judge Thank you, do I have other commissioners who would like to speak Commissioner Brian I'll be very brief. I consulted briefly with mr. Judge During our discussion. I just want to look again at table e1 in the staff report This is on page 10 If you do and these are very rough calculations There you know, the actual numbers may be a little different but if you by the present designation traffic generated if you Calculate based on an R20 zoning with 58 single family lots the traffic volume is approximately 580 if you Go by the proposed designation and use 132 townhomes the traffic is approximately 819 So the new development really only adds approximately 239 trips per day And I just thought those numbers might be of interest to everybody that's concerned about traffic Thank You Commissioner Brian are the other commissioners who would like to speak If so, I'm going to close the public hearing And Can I get a motion? Commissioner Brian? Madam chair, I will Move that we recommend approval of the Creekside commons Z1 6 0 0 0 0 1 With the additional committed element that will be only townhomes Madam chair if I may Before we vote, I would also like for the motion to include these most recent proffer to rewrite the design commitment Design commitment number one To improve the grammar and to clarify the distinction between buildings and units and to also include a Commitment that the building unit the buildings will contain between two Not fewer than two and not more than six units Accept that amendment Okay, I have a motion by commissioner Brian and a second by commissioner Whitley that we move item z1 6 0 0 0 0 1 Forward with a regular a favorable recommendation and Design details as stated All in favor of this motion. I'm gonna ask for a roll call Mr. Al Turk. Yes, mr. Brian Mr. Busby Miss Freeman. Yes, mr. Ghosh Mr. Gibbs. Yes, mr. Harris miss Hyman. Yes, mr. Johnson Mr. Kinchin. Yes, mr. Miller. Yes, mr. Whitley Motion carries 12 to 0. Thank you our next item Public hearing for a village hearth item number z1 6 0 0 0 1 4 Good evening again Kyle Taylor with the planning department I could affirm that all legal notice requirements have been executed in accordance with state and local law and affidavits for such Are on file in the planning department Zoning case z 16 0 0 0 14 village hearth Co-housing community the applicant is Dan Dan a jewel that's in the city's jurisdiction The request is from residential suburban 20 and residential suburban 10 to plan development residential 2.1 1 0 the acreage is 15 point 207 acres and proposed uses for 32 single family and multifamily units with community buildings The site is located at 1000 infinity road in the suburban tier and the FJB watershed overlay protection district The site satisfies the criteria for the PDR zoning district is highlighted in this slide and in the staff report So it is heavily wouldn't there's currently a single family dwelling in several accessory structures located on this site This project meets the requirements for a development plan for a PDR zoning district the proposed conditions Page commits to two access points or that are shown One of them being listed as a future connection Location building and parking envelope and general location of project for the tree protection areas The project does commit to 32 residential units to access points like a stated one on Buttonbush Drive and one listed as a future street connection to the east Impervious surface maximum of 24 percent or 3.6 49 acres tree coverage at 20 percent or 3.04 1 acres Graphically commits to location of tree preservation areas location of access points and building a parking envelope There are two text amendments profit with this The first one being that prior to the issuance of a building permit Dedicate 15 feet of additional right-of-way for the frontage of the site long infinity road a Copy of the reported plat must be submitted with the first building permit application And secondly all non-building area will be common open space There are a number of Design commitments associated with this namely being that the a commitment to the type In style and each building will utilize a minimum of two of the following building materials brick masonry Mason block stone metal stucco artificial stucco vinyl or cement is siding materials interim This request is consistent with the feature land use map which designates this area's low density residential for dwelling units per acre or less Staff has determined that the proposal is consistent with the comprehensive planning policies outlined in this staff in this slide and in staff report and Staff determines that this request is consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies Thank you and staffs available for any questions Okay, I have seven individuals who have signed up to speak for So I'm going to need some additional time Madam chair I have nine Madam chair if I may give in the large number of speakers signed up both four and against seven four and nine against I would move that We allow 20 minutes per side Okay, it has been moved them properly Second that we allow 20 minutes for both sides all in favor of this motion I mean per side it's 20 minutes per side So all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by the usual sign of I All opposed I have it and now mr. Jewel. We can begin. We'll start with 20 minutes. We're gonna divide this time up among all seven great Thank You madam chair and our speakers have not necessarily signed up in the order But we will as they get ready. They'll they'll line up. Thank you. So thank you for for your indulgence on that Good evening commissioners. My name is Dan Jewel. I'm a landscape architect with culture jewel Thames We're just down the street at 111 West Main and I reside at 1025 Gloria Avenue The members of the village hearth co-housing community have asked our firm to help them bring their vision of a co-housing Community to fruition by assisting them with this zoning application The site design which will happen in in the near future and the permitting permitting that goes along with all that Kyle with staff has described the location and generally outlined our proposal. Well There are a series of speakers that will follow me who can explain much more eloquently than myself What co-housing is all about? Why some of them are choosing to live in this community and how they've worked to engage the neighbors In a positive way They they they thought What I'd like to do is give you a bit of information about What we are proposing to do and what we are not proposing to do We are proposing to develop a community of up to 32 units By our calculations. This is an exactly equivalent density than the current zoning would Allow on this property The community will be oriented around common open space Designed in such a way as to have much less impact on the land than a conventional subdivision would But the goal of preserving as many of the specimen trees as possible Just to let you know sometime early next year the community will get together and They'll engage upon a series of design workshops With their architect I will be involved with that as well And they will work on starting to design a site layout as I described Work on the building architecture the style and mix of units That best works for the community as well as the individual needs of the residents We'll also be preserving the stream corridor that's shown on our existing conditions and development plan and buffer That's on the northern portion of the site near infinity Road most of all Our goal is to create a community which is sensitive to the land Neighbors and still preserves the appeal of the property which led them to purchase the property in the first place Yes, they have already purchased this property You all probably know that this is fairly unusual in our business Generally land is put under contract With a closing conditioned on a successful rezoning and quite often even the successful site plan approval I think this reinforces the point that these folks are not developers They are working to create an intentional community that they all will live in What we are not proposing is a conventional single-family subdivision The current zoning of the property which is RS 20 and RS 10 The land is already appropriately zoned to do a single-family subdivision of the same number of units as we are proposing By right with no rezoning No public hearings No required neighborhood meetings or votes by you or the elected officials. It would simply be all administrative approvals But instead these folks Willingly come to you asking for a rezoning to the same density simply so that they can cluster their houses in a way that creates this community with all the common open space that we're proposing We are well aware that the neighborhood concern is about traffic and opening up the end of button bush This is understandable These neighbors have enjoyed a quiet little dead-end street for all the years that they have been there since their neighborhood Chris created many years ago I also know this because my old partner Ken Coulter Actually did the initial land planning for part of this property back in in the 1970s for the urban company Before it changed hands several times and then a portion of it became you know trace Our proposed connection to button bush will add cars to the end of this street But not to the extent that I believe these neighbors fear Folks who live in co-housing are traditionally older and drive much less than a typical household where one or two people will work And quite possibly have children who need to be carded to school or soccer practice or whatever But in order to strengthen this argument and that commitment the village hearth folks have instructed me to proffer tonight That there will be a committed element on the development plan I discussed with the staff previously that this will be an age restricted community 55 or older I believe when you're ready to ask questions of staff city traffic engineer Bill judge Can confirm you for you that this will in fact mean a lower trip generation rate than a a Non-age restricted community would and especially a single family subdivision We're also very aware the question has arisen and is being asked time and time again Why we don't connect to infinity road as the primary entrance to this community There are numerous reasons Including there's relatively poor sight distance on infinity road as you're traveling east to this driveway There's a hill there if you've been out there The the previously mentioned environmentally sensitive stream that we don't want to further impact The fact that the existing driveway culvert over that stream is Failing and needs expensive repairs to be used for day-to-day traffic we are currently proposing that it be kept open for emergency vehicles and maintenance and My empirical history with ncdot that any project that proposes a primary entrance on a DOT road Even of a very modest size like this Will precipitate the need for a left-turn lane and in my 35 years of experience in this business left-turn lanes are now running $300,000 and more which is would be a great burden on this community that's trying to create a space Which is livable and affordable for them For this and other reasons Including staffs finding of concurrence with the comprehensive plan and the other requirements We would ask your recommendation for approval tonight and I'd now like to hand the microphone over to Pat Macaulay Who's one of the founders of Village hearth that? Commissioners staff and neighbors. My name is Pat Macaulay. I live at 749 9th Street apartment 480 Durham 2770 5 I Along with other members of Village hearth co-housing and planning this senior co-housing community We're looking forward to moving into our small quality cottages where we expect to live the rest of our lives By creating this community we can easily look out for each other Help each other with groceries and other tasks all the while minimizing our trips into town Because co-housing communities are self-developed. It's our money on the line. There's no deep pocketed developer Nor hundreds of units over which to spread the considerable infrastructure costs We're making every effort to keep our homes as affordable as possible for our members After a six month search last year we found this affordable beautifully wooded lot and closed on the property in August of 2015 Dan is providing a handout detailing our outreach to the neighbors We immediately introduced ourselves by mail to our 23 adjoining neighbors and to Eno Trace's management company Indicating our intention to develop this land in line with existing zoning and to keep them informed as our park our Project progressed we received five Responses most curious about the type of development and they were mostly relieved that we weren't building a big apartment building Following Dan's submittal of our development plan in May 2016. We mailed invitations to 115 Neighboring households to attend our June 28th voluntary information session conveniently located at the North Durham regional library for Neighborhood households attended all were supportive of our community But one household had serious reservations about our using button bush to access our homes Word spread and a total of eight additional Eno Trace neighbors sent emails welcoming us to the neighborhood But requesting that we not access our property through the stub on button bush Four households agreed to meet with us individually With one household hearing and understanding our reasons for entering via the road that directly accesses the flattest part of the land Where we plan to build our homes? We do recognize that change is hard for everyone, but development is an inevitable outcome of living in a really cool place like Durham Village heart co-housing represents the best kind of development in this area possible Instead of a multi-story apartment building. We're adding a small number of really friendly neighbors. Thanks for your time Good evening. My name is Alice Alexander. I live at 301 Hunt Street very close to here and I'm the executive director of the co-housing Association of the US I'm also a happy resident of Durham Central Park co-housing community on Hunt Street It's just about a half a mile from here. I Appreciate the opportunity to introduce you to the concept of co-housing Co-housing communities are intentional collaborative neighborhoods that combine extensive common facilities with private homes to create strong and successful Housing developments most co-housing communities are organized as townhouse or condominium developments with a homeowners Association as Village heart co-housing plans Co-housing is a descriptive term that shows the intent of these developments to cultivate a strong sense of community through extensive common facilities and Active collaboration of the residents Co-housing communities are part of the new sharing economy and are predicted to expand rapidly in the next few decades as individuals and families seek to live more sustainably and Changing demographics force us to find innovative ways to address the roles traditionally played by extended families Most co-housing communities are Intergenerational with both children and elders in recent years senior co-housing such as village hearth Focused on older adult needs have grown The more than two decades that co-housing communities have existed in the US have shown that these communities are strong Financially with very few foreclosures even in the most troubled markets during the depression during the recessions Excuse me the strong sense of community and mutual support They create actually reduces financial risk making these communities even better investments We have four co-housing communities in Durham with two nearby in Chapel Hill and Carboro Nationally, there are a hundred and sixty-five co-housing communities with a hundred and thirty in process as a member of Durham Central Park Co-housing, I enjoy sharing Sunday night meals in our common dining room weeknight happy hours and Spontaneous gatherings when I need a ride to the airport for a 6 a.m. Flight It still amazes me that neighbors really do want to give me a ride when a neighbor needs help after surgery Surgery we all rally around to provide support Jointly caring for our home the gardens the building facilities has created a strong and vibrant community Co-housing also facilitates community engagement and most of us volunteer for community service Our happiness and success has translated to 300 people on an interest list asking about openings I've been impressed with and proud of the founding members creating village hearth and the development professionals They have engaged. Thank you for this opportunity to express my support for village hearth co-housing My name is James Taylor. I live at 14 hummingbird Lane Durham right there in Eno Trace I built most of the houses there in Eno Trace now 250 homes probably my land backs up to this property and I'd much rather see this type of community go in Than a hundred a hundred and five unit townhomes So I'm all for this project button bush was a dead end I bought all my lots off of Allen Aldridge and the goal always was to extend it through But the elderly gentleman that owned land just would not sell it so that dead end Street was always meant to go through Good evening. My name is Paul J. Stinson. I live at 1006 Gloria Avenue in Durham I am a member of village hearth co-housing and I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you more about our proposed community Co-housing is a form of an intentional community where people agree to be good neighbors and good stewards of the earth senior co-housing Takes the idea further by including smart universal design features to aid in accessibility It's a wonderful situation for age in place We're planning to build up to 32 single story cottages in close proximity Resulting in homes clustered near a clubhouse to further construction Savings as well as future to future construction savings as well as future energy savings We're planning to attach our homes in duplexes Triplexes or quads as they fit on the available land building on the flattest part of the land will keep our paths accessible for seniors with cranky knees Which minor already starting by the way our Rezoning request is not to increase residential density rather to accommodate clustering and attaching the homes In fact by building only 32 homes will have much less impact on the land compared to a typical developer That we are not going in clear-cutting anything like that. We actually like the trees and we like keeping it the way It is that's why we're there part of the process of creating co-housing is to support Participatory nature of the design process. We're looking forward to going through that design process So we can see how our new homes will look and where everything will be located on our land Another feature typical to co-housing is living lighter on the land So clustering our homes helps us preserve a large amount of green space where we can have gardens in space in which to enjoy our Wooded land most folks will only have one car and we understand there's a possibility of us getting confused about Which Prius belongs to whom but probably won't be a lot of driving after dark But that's a little to be seen We know one of our senior co-housing communities where members formed an LLC and leased an electric car to share among the six Participants so there's many options there is a natural outcome of living close proximity to one's neighbors that rides be shared And items picked up for one another thus reducing expected traffic flow No, I'm sure looking forward to all the benefits of co-housing can bring on a last note I'd like to say I grew up on ladder road Which is just right across Rossburg Street, and I've lived in Durham most all my life And one reason that I'm doing this is I would like to spend the last part of my life Back there in northern Durham where I'm from. Thank you very much for your considerations. Thank you Madam chair Madam chair There was a number of Elements that that gentleman just proposed forward that are not included in the Development plan we need a clarification of whether those are things that are actually being proposed at this time or not Many of the things that mr. Stinson described our design intent, but not yet committed elements But I assume we will probably discuss that a little bit later. Good evening. My name is Jim Kimbrough I live at 1102 infinity road, which is next door to the plan development My wife is Judy Strickland, and we both support the co-housing development and Sincerely appreciate the effort that's been made by village hearth to keep us in the information loop concerning this property Which has been vacant and unkempt for so long as Neighbors we want to make sure that there is no degradation in how water runoff is handled Since a lot of water does travel through our property onto the village hearth property and eventually onto the Eno River The tree coverage area that has been described in DP1 in the development plan needs to be updated In late autumn Duke energy came through had a contract to remove all the trees along the property line in some additional area Between a thousand infinity road and the three neighbors to the east On page eight of the zoning map change report the last section titled long-range bicycle plan states that quote the additional asphalt widening will be provided to allow for a bicycle lane in quotes Increasing the paved width of infinity road for only 200 feet as little utility as a bike line Our property line currently has a three-board fence along infinity road to control our livestock Increasing the width of infinity road in front of our property would be too close to that fence and Also the indeed the additional impervious material will cause more water runoff along infinity road Finally on DP2 There is a notation for future street connection to the property of one of our neighbors Joe and Ann Browning The Browning property is served by a private driveway which also serves several other properties along infinity road Just that one designation will impair the value of the surrounding land area Since none of the current neighboring landowners to the east agreed to this designation Please remove that notation from any development plans Summary and in order to minimize the effect of water runoff for the development Revised the tree coverage area and delete the notation for the bike lane Also remove the future street connection from any documents relating to this development. Thank you. Mr. Christopher Ross Good evening. My name is Christopher Ross. I'm also a member of Village Hearth Co housing. I Live at 1 0 2 1 Fox trail in South Boston, Virginia And also at 9 to 5 Alabama Avenue here in Durham Funnily enough my partner and I cannot remember exactly when or how we heard about co-housing But once we decided to sell our house in in southern Virginia and move to Durham We began to explore the triangles several co-housing communities What sold us on Village Hearth you you may ask Several things actually starting with the opportunity to be in on the ground floor of this kind of community thereby not only being able to take advantage of early member discounts, but more importantly to have significant input Into the physical design of the community For example, what should we have in the clubhouse and where should the common house go? Where should the dog run be? Will there be a place for me to meditate out in nature? There are innumerable innumerable details to be worked out as we Go forward and we're eager to share our vision as the community takes shape This way the community adapts to us to what our collective values are to what our specific needs are as we age in place and Rather than our community Rather than our having to adapt to a pre-existing community rather Let's face it. We males hate to commit But there comes a time in life when it is important not only to have neighbors But to even know them to be around people we care about and who care about us and that extends beyond Village Hearth Village Hearth in other words offers us men the seemingly paradoxical ability To be part of a community to be committed to its success and to be connected to the other residents While also allowing us to be free and independent and autonomous We will come and go as we please and participate in social activities that we are Interested in and not in the ones that we are not interested in but we're also free To lock ourselves away if so moved my partner in his studio to paint and I in my study to read write and meditate Village Hearth will satisfy both of our needs in that my partner needs a green Peaceful quiet place to live and my need is access to the city to be on the town and out and about Most importantly Village Hearth will embrace us as we age in the unique way that a co-housing community is Designed to do. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Mr. Ross That ends the individuals who are speaking for I'm going to call at least four names so that we can at least be in the queue to save some time We'll start with Joe Browning Mary Ellen Lowry Okay, thank you. Is this Kennedy Kennedy Rizzito? Yeah, just okay Hello everyone my name is Joe Browning I live at 1116 infinity road which borders the proposed development My chief concern and in the current submission of the plan is the fact that The the future road access would in effect bisect my property that my wife and I have spent a considerable amount of money and time to Improve and I've spoken with both mr. Jewel as well as the landowners and neither of them Want this road to go into place either as well as you can imagine I do not I would request that it be removed from the plan One other note the the reason that the existing road frontage on infinity road for the proposed development can't be used as a failed culvert My home and three other homes share a private driveway that also has a failed culvert So to get to infinity road from my house, you would have to come down that private road It would have to become public and you're dealing with the same issue of a failed culvert that we're told Village hearts can't use currently so my request would be that the future road site be removed from the rezoning submission Thank You miss Rizzito and Andrew Claren if you can go ahead and get in the queue. Okay Good evening madam chairman Good evening. My name is Kennedy Rizzito. I'm at 4 7 0 7 button bush drive in Durham and as part of the Announcement for the meeting there was a map attached to the announcement. Do all the commissioners have a copy of that map I don't know how to get it on the computer for you Okay, thank you. I'll be referring to that I'm Commissioners I invite you to come to button bush and look at the things that I'm about to address I have a family with three children. My husband is here We have approximately in on button bush alone those for a few hundred yards 15 Children that does not include the grandparents who have children in the neighborhood that regularly visit We have no public Park there. There is absolutely no other place for our children to play in the open together Except from street to street and yard to yard The development and relationships that my children are building are critical for their future By opening button bush you close those relationships and I know that sounds extreme But I've seen it day to day many of you have grown up on busy streets commissioner I'll turn others of you, but this is not a busy street. This is where they play together It's almost I called it once a flash mob of middle school boys showed up on my house They they descend upon button bush. They see one kid playing one kid bikes by they come over The girls are out there doing gymnastics. They're out there constantly running from house to house in the streets They have those little There's people constantly walking with strollers We have newborn infants on our streets who are in the front packs mom's pushing the strollers walking the dog They take up half the street One family or one mom walking with their strollers takes up half the street So there's no room for more traffic. They need to keep the Infinity Road access open I'm sorry. I thought we had 20 minutes for the group. I didn't realize I'm sorry I'm I'm new at this. Okay. I'm new I'm sorry. I don't have your name listed or are there two sheets Because this is the only one that I have Let me just take a look at the other sheet To make sure that I have Okay, you're in a different column. I have it. I have it. It's in a different column. Thank you so much Okay I'm sorry. So how much time do I have? Just keep going. Okay. Thank you Thank you commissioners the the bottom line is that we were all really shocked that The plan was to close and access to the main road We we couldn't understand it. We couldn't believe it and yes button bush was originally Hoped to go through but that person didn't sell so it didn't we can't have the Infinity access closed Looking at your maps The access from the 1000 Infinity property through the Enotrace neighborhood is over half a mile No speed bumps on button bush No sidewalks the entire way There are speed bumps on Shade bush going all the way out. There are two actual turns It goes by five bus stops Children standing out there in the dark cars parents parked blocking half the streets It is and the curve at button bush near the bee the capital B You can't see around it. One of the families didn't even let their children up until last year go up to that corner Because it's so dangerous. This is a dangerous route to take It goes around that dangerous corner You have to take a right then a left then over the speed bumps and once you get to an infinite infinity It's almost a blind Pull out. I don't know why they even put it there to begin with but up to the left There's a hill so you can't see the cars coming except flying down that hill at you trying to turn left and to the right The the view is very limited by a hill also I mean, it's a hill Mary getting out of there. This is a very dangerous route to to run through the neighborhood for them and for us No sidewalks No speed bumps on button bush last summer the paper ran an article about Emergency vehicles trying to get into neighborhoods that far over speed bumps. They were saying it was a critical difference in life or death The access to infinity that they currently have is safer Shorter and smarter Please let our children be children let our community our community be a community We don't have a place to meditate Let our children be together. Thank you. Thank you Andrew Good evening. Thank you for having me. I live at 4804 button bush. So date your name, please I'm sorry. This is Andrew Claren. Okay, and as stated. I live on the same street I was gonna bring up some points that they actually kind of touched on themselves. They Almost kind of joked about how they're elderly And you know have issues driving That's kind of some of the the concerns that we have with the current street Since most of the homes are older a lot of them only have single-car garages So a lot of people do park on the street There are there is street parking there and when you get two cars parked on either side of the street Access down the road even for normal power pedestrians or people driving you have to kind of weave around the cars So I couldn't imagine Emergency vehicles trying to come down that on a regular basis I guess if the playing community wasn't going to be an elderly community then you know that could could be Concerned that would be removed but as stated It's a shorter distance to keep the infinity road access then come down button bush the actual distance from the Lazy River access on to infinity and the 1,000 infinity access that they currently have is 200 yards so they're going to drive a mile and I'm sorry a half a mile To get to a property when the entrance to the property is 200 yards from the road. They were driving anyway So I Think a lot of the things that we're concerned with is related to the traffic We don't have any concerns with with who's going to be building there It's it's nothing personal. I will say that It was mentioned that they met with some of the homeowners they mentioned numbers of how many people came out We spoke amongst ourselves and realized that every time we met with them. It was the same Kind of thing that was presented to us The reason more people didn't meet with developers is we realized we weren't going to get anywhere with them So we were going to speak to the people that did have control over it So there's no reason to meet with them anymore One comment that was made when meeting with them when asked why they didn't want to keep the infinity road exit was that If they had that as an entrance then we would use it as well So they didn't want to have traffic fluid through their neighborhood, but they were okay with building through our neighborhood to maintain their sense of less traffic so The other thing I'll touch on is is yes They purchased the land, but if you don't have the money to develop it Then why move forward? Why would you purchase something with not knowing if you can fully move forward with your plans if If widening infinity was something that was going to come up Then they should have built that into their plan and not say that it's something they can't afford because they bought this land They need to be able to develop the way that's the safest for everyone. Thank you I'm going to call the names of the next five people a Carlos cheek Ben Anderson Caroline Anderson Chris Sheehan and Darren Sheehan Carlos cheek will be first Thank you My name is Carlos cheek and I live at 48 12 button bush, which is directly adjoining the property in question and I Just want to say that you know when we moved into you know trace 10 years ago We were looking to you know buy a house coming from a townhouse one of the things that intrigued us about you know trace was Just the family oriented atmosphere and especially that street button was drive is probably the most kid-friendly street in the whole neighborhood and and Like Kennedy mentioned, you know the street actually has a buying spot because because of the curve and We was just had you know normal people like delivery trucks and things come flying down the street You know which you know causes concern So just to have that extra traffic, you know in and out and I know that you know The people from Village Harps say that you know the traffic may be minimal But you don't know that really and it's still gonna be more than what we have right now My daughter You know, there's like I said, it's just a really kid-friendly area I mean they get home from school and at any point there's ten kids out the street Another thing that you know really concerns me. I don't know if everyone's been down to the end of button bush But where that dead end is there's a lot of really large boulders So, you know, I'll be curious to hear from the developers. What's the plan as far as how are you gonna? Make a road through there without removing those boulders and if you need to remove them What does that mean? So I mean you need to come in and blast with dynamite. I mean I work from home a lot and You know, I Just need a little bit more information. It seems like when we were first presented with this idea and and I wanted to say You know that everyone is happy You know, you want to bring the community in please speak into the mic. Okay, the biggest issue I think where everyone is just that entrance to the neighborhood and Another thing is you know, is it gonna be? Still listed as 1000 infinity road if that's the case If you got to you know give people directions to get to your house And they got to come through a whole nother neighborhood That just doesn't make any sense to me when like Andy says, you know a mile and a half From the main road when you can just have that 200-yard entrance. So I mean That's pretty much my piece. I Really honestly don't see any way that I can support this Regardless of any development changes. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Thank you. Mr. Cheek Good evening, madam chairwoman commissioners, my name is Benjamin Anderson. I live at 4 3 3 0 Lazy River Drive in Durham, North Carolina I'll just echo the concerns that have been already stated But I do want to be clarify my position in that I do agree that the co-housing Concept is a good one and I really think and many others I think that have you know presented ideas in our community Forums that we've had on this topic have also expressed that they do think the idea of it is very exciting And that the neighbors would be really great neighbors. It just comes down to this development point of the access through Button Bush and echoing my neighbors concerns I too and my family have concerns regarding the Traffic that would be generated my concern more so The immediate traffic related to construction vehicles In the short term Maybe the long-term traffic would not be as high of an impact and I'm sure we'll hear about that But this is a very heavily trafficked community We don't have sidewalks that are developed throughout the community So the access point of getting out in the community and walking is on those streets And that would be a very big impact on on the community itself And we do take into concern the the safety of the pedestrians that are walking on the streets Most importantly significantly to us is our children and there are a lot of children who were out there so in talking through You know what the compromises might be I haven't really heard any Compromised option. I just hear that this is an access point that was planned as an access point and The other access point is too expensive. So this is the direction that they would prefer to go And to me it comes down more to a cost decision versus making good planning sense I also heard comments about the entrance being unsafe where the bridge was deteriorating and causing unsafe conditions But in the same comments hearing that that was going to be used for potential utility access in emergency vehicles So that doesn't really make sense to me either and we bring up the issue of it being an older community We do bring up the concern of emergency vehicle being able to access This community and an adequate amount of time making sure that the safety of the community members is as upheld so with all those in mind in In in our position being we do want to see this community develop We do want to see it take place But we want to make sure that it's done in a way that addresses these very real concerns that we we have and I'd like to Note that Caroline Anderson will yield yield her time back to the commission as she's taking care of our daughter outside So thank you so much Chris she had my name is actually Darren Sheehan and Chris Sheehan is my wife. So we're in this together. Okay We live at 4801 Button Bush Drive and We live in there for 16 years and at this point We do have a concern because I'm gonna echo everything that's been said here I don't want to just keep repeating the exact same things, but there has to be another point of access to that road And they the gentleman just before me this on Lazy River. That's another thing. I was just gonna bring up We're gonna have construction vehicles going in and out of it We already have UPS and FedEx and everything else going It just doesn't make sense at this point to not have a second access point for emergency vehicles for all this and again We have like I said, I've young children. I've got a 10 year old I've got a 14 year old and one in college now, but we moved in that college Daughter is now, you know, you know, she was three years old at the time But that's one thing we there's a lot of small children new children moving into that that road And it's actually taking a left hard turn So, you know more vehicles coming through there are gonna be zipping through there. No speed bumps again I'm echoing everything that's already been said. It's definitely a concern And we are parking on the street Okay. Thank you very much Thank you. So Chris will not be speaking Okay, I see you. Thank you Okay, that was the last of the individuals that I have to speak To speak against this issue. Well, you deferred your Okay, she took more than that Yes Good evening everyone. Good evening chairman. Good evening I'm a transplant from New York. I moved to North Carolina because this is where I wanted to live This is the neighborhood. I wanted to live in I'm the lady on the block Who's? Everyone's kids come to my house so they could go play with my dog walk my dog if this happens Parents are not going to be able to let their children Come play with my dog It's gonna be too dangerous So the elephant in the room is the cost. I drive a Nissan Welcome to the neighborhood, but these people purchased the BMW and now they're finding out they can't afford it I can't help them pay for it I bought what I could afford and now you have to come up with the money for what you need and what you want I'm sensitive to it one day. I'll need a community like this, but for now I Can't take the property value hit. I'm a single parent with a daughter going to college. I can't take that hit You needed to plan for it. You didn't so plan for it And if you can figure it out great and welcome to the community Thank you I'm going to close the public comments and Portion of the hearing and bring this back to the commissioners and I'm going to start to my Commissioner al-Turk Commissioner goshe Commissioner brine Okay Commissioner Gibbs Commissioner Miller Commissioner al-Turk Thank you, madam chair So we're voting on a zoning map change which Means we you know the existing zoning is rs 20 and rs 10 if so that that means if the owners right now wanted to Develop this land. They could do this without our Recommendation right and the city councils and they would and they could build 31 single-family homes So that's to me. That is why I'm inclined to vote for this because you know the the impact is not so much the The number of homes that will be in this development will be very much in line with and congruent with the neighboring community However, I do on the other hand the traffic concern. I think is is Is warranted. It's I drove on button bush yesterday and there were a lot of people out there and so I I'm curious What it would take for the neighbors to Be on board or the neighboring community to be on board with this whether some traffic calming device Calming I think the let me go to appendix Sorry about that Seven I think BPAC the Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission Recommended a text commitment to provide call traffic calming along a button bush and Lazy River roads I am wondering and this is a question both to the neighboring or the neighbors and the developer whether they would consider This and whether this would alleviate some of the concerns Someone else also mentioned the construction traffic and I'm curious whether the developer can Mr. Jewel whether you can address that if if there's it's possible to have construction traffic come through I mean, I guess it would be infinity road be the only option. Is that a possibility? Thank you Good question, and thank you for that and and obviously there's a common theme tonight and we've been aware of that As I think most of you know, there is an existing dirt gravel driveway that extends from infinity road Well into the property almost three-quarters of the way down to button bush as some of the speakers said it Button bush teed in and or dead ended in and was never extended before because there wasn't a willing seller Well, these folks are able to find a willing seller The existing driveway has has issues The culvert being one The way it's connected to to infinity road We we have been exploring What it might take to Upgrade that culvert and fix it so it'd be safe and potentially being construction traffic off of there So that's that's that's something that I I think could be done I'd like to hear what the other commissioners have to have to say about that our You know folks say your money your problem fix it deal with it. I hear you but If somebody came in and developed a single family neighborhood in here they would probably make a street connection from infinity road all the way to button bush and My experience you would end up with more traffic than just this community Would would add because people would be using that connection to get farther into the neighborhood But that being said you have real concerns. You have children. You're out there If if there's a way that we can keep that driveway open for day-to-day use Not necessarily improve it to a large extent but do it in such a way that those members of the community who You know are willing to drive on a on a on a driveway and get out infinity road that way That that's something that That I think we'd be be willing to consider the the cost of the turn lane though is a real thing This is a small group of people. It's not poultry homes. It's not standard Pacific homes The expense of a turn lane is a is a is a big expense But I have been doing some converse having some conversations with ncdot and to some extent Mr. Judge you might want to weigh in And if there's a if there's a happy medium a way to Keep that driveway open for day-to-day use take the gate out that sort of thing and And not have to put a left turn lane in which I think is a possibility based on maybe fewer improvements out there Then then I hopefully that's a that's something that would help satisfy the neighbors and you that there's not just Wait one way in and out of the project. I don't know if that was an answer or not Well, we Know I was more curious whether there can be entrance for just for construction. I mean not necessarily long term I know that that can happen in some cases, but I don't know. Maybe it won't it can't in this case Well, if the culvert is fixed then then I think there's an opportunity for construction traffic to go in and out of that. Yes And then any any comment on traffic calming a Long button bush I'm not sure I'd have to look at the look at the situation and we'd have to hear from the neighbors whether they felt traffic calming was a reasonable mitigation That would that would allay some of their fears about parking on the street and children and children and children. We heard that Thank you commissioner goshe. Thank you, ma'am chair I'll just piggyback off that for a second I'm glad to hear that you'd be Willing to do that would you be willing to make a proffer to that to that nature That you would try to maintain access along Yeah, I I think there's a there's a if we could work out a conditional proffer But I certainly need to hear from mr. Judge to see what impact would have it to have on you know his feeling about this project in terms of whether we'd have to go back through the The back back to staff again for Analysis and that sort of thing before We could move forward with with with the planning commission But I would like to hear what what he has to say relative to if we were to because we currently do show that access is a is an access for Maintenance and in emergency vehicles and that's that's because of the low volume It's not like the culvert is going to collapse today But if we had traffic driving over there several times on a day on a day-to-day basis That's when it would be it get get that's when we'd be concerned about the structural See I can appreciate that night. I'll just Run the question to bill judge and it seems to me a low number of units. It's a restricted But I understand the point you're making so bill. Could you speak to what? Dan is asking Yep bill judge transportation At this point, I'm not real certain I guess as to what the proffer would be whether this would be a proffer for construction traffic or vehicular connection in and out of the neighborhood Depending on exactly what what's being proposed Would potentially impact I guess the the result If it's just a construction entrance I don't know that that would require any significant additional review If they're proposing a full access permanent access to serve the the neighborhood Proposed neighborhood development We would need to consult with ncdot to determine whether or not a left-turn lane is going to be required I believe they have proffered that the community will be age-restricted which will further reduce the traffic impact so I Haven't had that opportunity to discuss that with ncdot determine Whether or not they would require a left-turn lane for an age-restricted community of 32 units or not that I'm asking you to I guess what I would say is I'm a gambling man I would I would venture to guess that a left-turn lane might not be needed for an age-restricted community with 32 single and Multi-family units with a community building but I understand that you all are the applicants so I'm Asking if that proffer is there if it's something you can make if not I understand there seems there needs to be more review done because I think as you I think what you're saying is that the left-turn lane Essentially would put would price this project out. So so if there's a if there's a way to have a This would be a complicated proffer, but I think you've done more complicated before if there was a way to Commit to having a Secondary access point onto infinity road and by secondary I mean a not as is robust It would continue to be a a gravel driveway Modest that sort of thing and But but not trigger The need for a turn lane by ncdot. So if a proffer could be caveat it that way And I think you've done that before then then I think that could be a Reasonable way to provide additional act permanent access to this to this community without burdening them I think I'm making this real complicated, but can you all speak to whether that kind of proffer is something that could be enforced? We would need additional time to review a proffer of this magnitude Based on the fact that we don't have exact wording in front of us. We haven't had time to review this We would need to request a parole of 60 days to Okay Well, Dan do you think 60 day? I mean you think it deferral is out of the question at this point or I mean how Sounds like you're willing to work on this. I don't want to unduly delay the project. So 60 days is a long time And I realize it's we've got the holiday season coming up in that sort of thing But is it would it be impossible for us to spend a few minutes to try and word a proffer tonight to that extent? I think I think it's worthwhile. I think we've done it before to give it a shot I'm willing to give a shot Sorry, we are only at this point. This is the commissioner comment period and So they can ask questions of individuals, but the neighbors have had an opportunity to speak That would be up to commission a gauche to To have a response to his questions Thank you. I appreciate the point. So, why don't we try this? Why don't we hear from the neighbors and it Dan if maybe you could work with? Kyle and Bill to see if there's any kind of language you can come up with in the next few minutes for a proffer I don't know that a proffer will be made tonight, but to the extent that one could be crafted with and Such that the project wouldn't be delayed for 60 days I think it's worthwhile to try it out and I definitely am interested in hearing from the neighbors Good could I could I take a quick stab at a proffer just to start? So we have a starting point on that and that would be to to keep the existing driveway connection open as a secondary private driveway With the caveat That it not have to be developed to be on the point where ncdot would require a left turn lane So in other words, there's I'm banking on that there's some There's some level of driveway connection where DOT will not require a turn lane but So it leaves it a tiny bit open-ended, but it I'm pretty sure there's there's some happy median there Where DOT would say okay? It's just a small driveway. We know people are going to use it not to a huge extent We're not going to require a left turn lane That's my first stab Thank You Ben Anderson again for 330 lazy River Drive Thanks for the question and actually the the opportunity to talk about a compromise This is something that came up in several of the meetings that we had as a community What would be a compromise? I don't speak for everyone in the community. They may have their own personal opinions But I speak for me and hearing the discussion and the questions that were brought up by the two commissioners here And when in our discussions that in the community Some of the ideas that were brought about one being if you could still have an access point One issue one concern being Access by emergency vehicles if you can have a secondary access point from infinity that would cover the ability for emergency vehicles That would open us up to the idea of also being able to potentially put in some more speed bumps as I understand it And this could be validated is One reason we cannot put more speed bumps into the community is because it limits It puts it over the threshold of the amount of response time that emergency vehicles could get to the back of the neighborhood So if you were able to have an access point for the emergency vehicles Maybe that would open up the conversation where we could potentially also have an incorporation of some additional speed bumps in it In an area of the neighborhood that does have a lot of children and now the cost of that I don't know where that would go, but that was one thing that was discussed Among the community members is about the speed bumps but not being able to do that because of the emergency access Vehicles, so thank you for that and I appreciate the the concern my understanding was that as As presented already without any additional proffer that driveway was to be maintained for emergency access So I don't know that the way it's presented now forecloses what you're suggesting I think that it's actually still within the realm of possibility and as far as adding speed bumps You know, I it's in I've heard Conflicting points now, which is one that too many speed bumps reduces the the response time and that's a matter of life and death and So maybe Maybe I didn't quite catch the point, but it seemed like the suggestion was that there might already be Too many speed bumps, so having an access from infinity would make more sense, especially given I Guess the type of community that's being proposed. It would make more sense if emergency vehicles could access it from the driveway, but that's My understanding was it's already get me a Dan. Can you clarify? that as all as Already presented without any additional proffer is was the driveway going to be an access for emergency vehicles Mr. Miller is always helpful. I'm going to peruse this quickly. Well, I'm I'm getting ready to answer that Yes, the condition on our the note on our development plan was that that driveway would be maintained for emergency vehicles and maintenance and Mr. Anderson is that kind of the extent to which You were you were suggesting Okay, gentlemen, we are being televised So if you're going to speak you need to be at them at the podium so the people at home can hear what you're saying Yeah, sorry about that So I think yeah the some the main concerns being the emergency vehicles if that is addressed through the secondary access And I know that the concern being on the secondary access was the implementation of that turn lane Which is costing out potentially the project. So that's not necessary You know, we don't want them to have to cost out, you know their project at least again I speak from for mostly myself up here But I think in voicing the community concerns that was one issue and they're talking and I know in the plans It had suggestions for traffic Calming speed bumps being one of the ideas of a coffee traffic calming approach But we weren't sure as community as the neighborhood whether or not we could put more speed bumps in because of that emergency vehicle issue So the emergency vehicle issue the construction vehicles if that could go to a secondary I think I think that would address at least a lot of the concerns I and several others have had about the The the increase of those vehicles on the road on button bush track So if I may I appreciate Miller mr. Miller doing a very quick and thorough job of writing the proffer that I was I was proposing to put forward It seems though we may be down to something as simple as taking that existing notation that we have on a development plan that says for emergency vehicles and maintenance and adding the words and construction vehicle access to it And I'm looking at staff including mr. Judge to see if that that seems like that's a relatively innocuous change And proffer to our to our plans Commissioner goes this is still in response to your question. So are they still responding to your question or have you yes? Yes, and I would I'm sorry to monopolize all of the time here But I do think that this is an important proffer So I think I mean it very clearly is the main issue I think associated with plan so to the extent we can get it Settled now. I think it'd be important Sorry, you have some other commissioners in the queue if you're working if something is being worked on We can at least have the additional comments. So why don't I move to the next commissioner? Commissioner brine and we'll get back to that sounds like great idea. Thank you Yes, and if I could interject just a clarification We had made a late change to the development plan before the last version got to you It actually says existing gravel driveway to remain for construction and maintenance only So the amendment would be and emergency vehicles Okay Commissioner brine. Thank you. I have some questions for staff One of them refers to what was just brought up it says on the development plan about the existing gravel driveway to remain For construction and maintenance only the fact that it's written here on the development plan Does that commit them to that? It is a considered a graphical commitments However, it is currently that they can use it for that not that they will It'd be very difficult for them to actually propose something for that would require them to use that Okay, well, I was thinking if they're going to use it Especially for construction and leave it and add something about emergency vehicles And it seems to me you're going to have to fix your culvert whether you like it or not And it also says the existing gate to remain Question there is it going to be left unlocked? Based on what we have on the plan today and what we've heard If we're talking about construction equipment maintenance and emergency vehicles The gate could remain because construction vehicles will have keys to the gate Emergency vehicles with it will generally what we do is we have double or triple locks on those gates so if a fire truck needs to come in or an ambulance or something like that they can they can cut a key and Use the key and as all the firemen have told me in Durham They have the universal key known as four-foot bolt cutters And I've heard several comments. I think about this connection to the east Several people have indicated they would like to see it disappear Is that feasible? Build judge transportation Based on the unified development ordinance and the the length of the property that That stub street connection would be is required under the ordinance And do you require how many entrances are required for development of this size? For development of this size, there's only you can have up to 90 units on a single point of access So it's not necessarily need it to provide the second point of access, but it is is need it for the overall street connectivity Thank you for that Having driven around that there I'm very much In favor of the fact of finding some way to have an access off of infinity road. It just makes no sense to me to have Traffic go down lazy river or some other access and then come down button bush And especially if it's an emergent vehicle for some reason because there's speed bumps already on Lazy river if you add more to button bush, you really slowing down your response time So you need to get some access to infinity road Now I'm also hearing a lot of discussion which is good Since I like to see things reviews and Sort of decided on before I vote on it I'm thinking we may have to look at a continuum Thank You Commissioner Brian Commission of Whitley. Well, Commissioner Burrin just said what I was thinking Jewel, I'm not in favor of voting for this One, I don't think it was well thought out To You will have that many people with only one access No And when you when you bill you want to have construction vehicles Blocking the one exit and one exit this seems to me that needs to be a whole lot more Conversation now I am in favor of Extension, I just think that there needs to be more conversation where we can where both development group and the community itself Can work this out and to give yourself time to do that I would I would vote for a I would vote for an extension I just think that there's just too many questions and and I just can't in good It's just too many people with one access once you build a little 32 units and you got Vulnerable people in that I'm a little over 50 just a little But that means more health problems and only one exit, you know And it seems to me the community at launch should be able to come forward with a remedy and I think we need to just give ourselves enough time to be creative Please consider Extension thank you commissioner Whitley commissioner Miller Thank You madam chairman. I have a question. Is it possible to develop this thing with with no public? Sized roads going through it. Can it be all can the development like this of this number of units be served entirely by private driveways? Well if shown on our development plan private streets are are permitted To serve single-family residential there there is the issue of the existing button bush right away starving So there would have to be some sort of termination extension of that So if they built a bulb on their property to make Both essentially what would be a cul-de-sac or maybe a Y to turn around or something like that They could connect a driveway to that Then what this connection then that goes up to the east to mr. Browning's property Is for street connectivity, but there's no streets When there are no streets do you have to have a connection for street connectivity? And what would that look like? Do they have to make a street up to that even though they don't want one and won't use it? Yeah, I'm bill judge for transportation again the The ordinance considers private streets to have essentially the same standards as public streets So that they could be turned over and made public at some point in the future if the community desired so There still would be the sub street. It would just be a private right away All right. Thank you that had that helped a lot. Yeah, mr. Miller. Could I piggyback on to that? Sure? We have done we have done numerous townhouse projects in Durham and projects where you basically have a condominium form of ownership, which is exactly what this project is proposed to be where You own your unit, but you don't know anyone any of the land and and on many of those projects We have done private driveways And there's a distinction private driveways don't have to meet private or public street standards It would be very similar to if any of you have visit visited the you know commons Project can meet co-housing community off Umpstead Drive They have a they have a driveway going around the the perimeter of the property So this would not is in my understanding at least based on my experience need to be Streets built to public street standards even though they are private and we have put on the development plan that these will be Private or can be private So under those circumstances mr. Judge, I want to make sure I understand before I pontificate I'm gonna pontificate, but I do want to understand the In other words is there what's the distinction between a drive the driveway that mr. Jewel is talking about and the the private street built to public standards that you're talking about and what's going to be required here Yeah, yeah bill judge of transportation once again. We essentially have three street type standards One are public streets, whichever one's familiar with the second one is private streets Which are essentially required to be built to the same standards as public streets so that they could theoretically It in the future is desired to be turned over to the city for maintenance It can be the third standard which mr. Jewel was referring to is allowed only for townhome and shopping centers and we call them essentially private drives and common areas and They're allowed for addressing purposes and other things, but they're essentially as he indicated common area that's Parking lots for they have we tend to they typically have parking on both sides Of the street and they they act and function more like a private parking lot, but they may have street names for addressing and 9-1-1 purposes, so if this Property is developed out as a condominium So that the that all the buildings are commonly owned And the owners of the individual owners only own inside the paint They own the finishes on the floor and the paint on the walls But they do not own the building and they do not own the land underneath can they Have the private drive you said townhome, but I did is that the is that the limit of it? Yeah, I think it probably would be more to how the lots are arranged There would be no lots. Yeah, so it all be a single lot I believe that would essentially qualify under similar to the multi-family like apartments where where it would be would where the private drives would be allowed And if it is private drives, do you still have to have the? Connection for street conic connectivity under the UDO. Do they have to build some sort of stub over there? And what would that look like? The Connection to the east would no long that section would no longer apply because there would not be a subdivision Per se if it's still one one lot with condominium Arrangement so we could get rid of that off the development plan That would be wonderful. So we're making progress. I personally Right now the folks who live on button bush have the benefit of a dead in street If this goes through and the only access is button bush, then the folks in the co-housing Wind up essentially co-opting the benefit that the button bush people have by moving it up They wind up with the end the end of the of the dead end street I think that this thing ought to be developed with a private drive that connects to infinity roads So long as the DOT doesn't require a left-hand turn lane similar to the thing I wrote. That's for everybody to use and to come and go The only people who would be using it would be the owners in the co-housing and they could choose to go button bush Or they could choose to go the other way depending upon what was easiest for them It's private drive. So the people on button bush would not cut through and the people on infinity road who wanted to go into Into the surrounding neighborhood couldn't cut through either because it's a private drive It seems to me. That's the solution to this And to eliminate that connection to to the east because it would be frightening to me Because that creek continues to cut across the properties if if we wound up with a townhouse project on mr Browning's property at some point in the future Then now everything's draining under button bush, and it just gets worse and worse So let's redraw this development plan so that we have a system of internal private drives It connects to button bush and connects to infinity road assuming that the DOT doesn't require that left-hand turn lane and and Then I think we can move forward And I do want to address if I can madam chairman, and I don't know I've talked a lot now when mr. Stinson spoke He's he addressed some issues that are important to me, but as far as I know have not been made as proffers He talked about a unit mix units of One two or even up to four units in a building I would like to see this development plan have a scheme for mixing units that makes sense to me So that we don't have a one great big building with 20 Units in it right now you could do that, but I don't think that's what you intend So let's talk about a unit mix that still allows the co-housing Owners to participate in that planning process within some outside parameters I Also heard a reference to that there wouldn't be clear-cutting and I've heard in my mind by extension There wouldn't be mass grading. I would love to see if that's in fact true. I would like to see a a proffer of a commitment to that and I would also Like to see a more realistic description of the building envelope here rather than just the edges of the property I believe we could could say where we plan to build here Without going clear up to the edge of the property and I think I know that if I lived in the neighborhood next door I would feel better about this knowing having a better clear picture about where these units were going to go And if we could do those things and I would be an enthusiastic supporter of this project Really because it to me I think that that it's a great project I want to vote for it But I think it should not have a connection to the east and it should have a driveway connection to infinity road If it has a connection to button bush, thank you. Thank you commissioner Miller a commissioner Gibbs Well after all that Could you clarify for me, please? Madam chair could could I get a clarification of what was just said we are still going to connect to Infinity and button bush, right We're not quite there Okay So what we're talking about since we're not there. We're talking about One entrance off of infinity with private drives that go around that serves all the Cluster housing and all of that what? One entrance off button bush Okay I'll just have to Hold on and wait see how this works out, but I Was just wondering what Do you think DOT would consider this? entrance as A main driveway to infinity When you consider all the single-family houses up and down this road They have a driveway that goes out into infinity road Does density being more than just a single-family house Dan does that Does that change the rules for having to have a turn lane I Could never predict what DOT is going to do Yeah, I know my experience though is they have required us to put left turn lanes in for subdivisions Subdivisions being the key word. Yeah as small as 10 or 12 lots and that's what that's why It's going to take a little more Conversation or caveats as mr. Miller proposed here. It almost seems like a rubber stamp kind of rule and I But again, it depends on what kind of How they look at this thing, but I before this subdivision this concept is Overtaxed or overburdened with With money I Still think One of one of the accesses could still be off button bush button who Button Bush, yes My daughter lives in a Community similar to this it's a little more curvy It may be a little more Dense And and I keep hearing speed bumps They don't have any speed bumps there and I keep hearing people flying down Around in the community. Are these people who live there? Do you not have more control over the people who live there? Are they not more? Aware of each other. Are they not good enough neighbors? to know what the situation is there and It's I Just think whoever lives in this in this new community Would be neighbor enough to know That yeah, they're gonna be kids playing in the street and there's gonna be parking on both sides of the street That means you got even less room and you got to slow down that much more After a while it becomes you expect to look out for kids more than you do for cars. I Don't think it's gonna be that much of a problem Traffic is traffic But people can work out things and live together peacefully and I think this project Would work well with your community It's enough another opportunity for more friends. It's not just somebody that's Infringing on your rights to play in the street the street or for cars, but yeah Kids do use it my grandkids use it And I like to jerk a knot in the head is when they go down the driveway and don't even look So it's up to us the new residents to you to make sure the kids Communicate with each other by walking through the yards like or some way to peaceably Connect these neighborhoods because I think it it would benefit both neighborhoods That's just That's just my piece on that but I and I when I went out there I The boulders and at the end of this cul-de-sac It's kind of junkie there's boulders trash There's a rickety old Wooden fence that's stuck up there. It's an eyesore to me to have a nice drive that goes up Well landscaped I would prefer that But that's That's a consideration. I think that should be thought of too and in our deliberations Thank You commissioner Gibbs commissioner commissioner Public hearing for public comments now unless one of the commissioners is responding to a question that is being asked I can't really call on individuals from the audience again Commissioner well commissioner Busby and then commissioner Freeman Thank You madam chair. I agree with a lot of the comments commissioner Miller made a few minutes ago But in particular We're not ready to vote tonight. We have far too many issues that have to be resolved I I'm sorry that folks have to come back But I agree with commissioner Whitley to do this right. We need to continue this hearing There are far too many questions. I do have a question for staff I do understand that the developer would rather not have a continuance for 60 days To me 60 days seems like the appropriate amount of time But to ask staff is this something to resolve the the multiple issues including a potential proffer as well as a request for some additional Descriptions that were put forward but not officially as proffers. Can this be done in 30 days or do we need to have a 60-day continuance? And then I'm prepared to make a motion after commissioner Freeman has a chance to speak The problem of the 30-day continues to be the fact that the internal deadlines for all of the items for next planning commission have already been passed The other issue is that we are coming up in the holiday season. So there are vacations and other things of staff being Not available at that time. Thank you. That's an appropriate response. I will at the appropriate time support a 60-day continuance Commissioner Freeman Thank you. I Honestly, don't think we need a continuance, but I would like to hear from the resident that has been trying to get to the mic and Hear exactly what she's trying to say about that dead-end that button bush Okay Thank you There's been a proffer and I think it would probably Just have an argument at the next hearing because the proffer doesn't actually add anything it's inadequate The the the driveway needs to be the The only access and this is why because they can close the gate at any time and override you You've spoken and then they'll shut it in your face because you are the ones that telling them what to do But if you don't actually put in place What the wording that needs to happen? To have your will on the community then it's a waste of time So if they are allowed to lock the gate, then there's no point. So We're encouraging a continuance. They've had so long They known all along that we didn't want this and that We welcome them. There are hundreds of kids on Halloween. They can come to my porch We will welcome them and give out candy. We have luminaries at Christmas They can walk around and have hot chocolate with us welcome come we will meet you We will embrace you put a walkway between walk your dogs come on exercise walks Whatever you want to do to be part of our community, but the driving the construction is what we're not interested in that's why button bush needs to be blocked and that's my proffer and Having the other one open completely with no gate. Thank you. That's worth it up. I would I would just like to Close and say or finish out my comments and saying that The way it stands now and the conversation that we're having around The co-housing providing a private drive is enough for me to support this and move forward. I don't think we need to continue Commission or gauche. I promise to return to you Thank you. And again, I apologize for taking up everyone's time I do want to say I so I agree. I think that With the keeping the private or the driveway open for Access for emergency vehicles and construction traffic. I think makes the project Something I can support today. I do understand commissioner Miller's comments and you know, I I can and I definitely understand the Adjacent property owner who doesn't want that connection that street connection made Or shown on the plan. I can understand where you're coming from with that. I will say It is scary to see it on the plan, but it if it's a street that's never Put in by another development say when you sell your property to a Developer who wants to make a subdivision then that street is actually never going to come in while you own the property I mean at least that's been my experience but I Still understand the point and I think that what commissioner Miller suggested is an interesting way to kind of get rid of that requirement I did want to touch on something else and that's first of all the Overall idea of this community. I think it's great. First of all, I think it's Innovative I realized there's other ones in Durham But I'm really glad to see that this type of community is something that's coming coming to Durham or wants to be in Durham I think it's a great type of community and I am I also just want to address a Concern of mine that I've seen with a lot of development proposals Not just this one and and to the credit of most everyone who spoke I think that you know Most everyone who spoke said this can be a great community can be and the people are are going to be nice neighbors But sometimes we get comments about you know How the community be closed off or we can't we can't have our kids in the street or anything anymore? The interesting thing about this case is that we actually know who the neighbors are going to be they're sitting right there And so I find it very difficult or I mean just I'm impressed with people who can come to the mic And say I can't support this. I think the neighbors will be bad I think it will be bad for my kids that type of thing you're talking to the people right there, and I think that's unfortunate I think we should be able to have a more Meaningful conversation and and a more polite conversation to be frank so I You know if this does get Deferred I would I would hope that when people come back to speak again They could speak nicely about the neighbors that are going to be there particularly given that they're sitting in the room It's bad enough when People talk about these suppose it you know people moving into a new development. They're gonna be criminals or something like that No one said that tonight. I understand that but I just I Don't understand why there's this a visceral action to new people moving in to your area They're very they seem to be very nice people, and I'm sure they will welcome your kids At any rate I would support this, but I understand that there are a lot of concerns on the planning Commission, so I Know Commissioner Busby said you would make a motion I would hope that that motion would be for approval, but I understand that there are some other concerns that Might need to be addressed. I think we're ready for some action. So Commissioner Busby. Thank you madam chair And again, I appreciate everyone's time. I Offer this motion in the spirit of let's get it right as opposed to let's do it fast I would move case number Z 1 6 triple 0 1 4 I've moved that we continue this for two cycles So I have a motion I didn't hear the second Have a commotion I have a Thank you I have a motion by Commissioner Busby and a second by Commissioner Whitley that we deferred the item for That we continue the item for two cycles to the January which is to the January meet. No It has to be the February February meeting. Okay. We currently fluff that up so Let me be clear on the motion Okay, let me be clear on the motion that we Our motion is to defer Continue this item for two cycles until February Is that and I do have a second so is there discussion? I Would just like to I'm just wondering if we we add that the gravel drive can be used for emergency vehicles and I'm just wondering whether the the applicant wants to Continue this for 60 days just for the I guess the future street connection or whether Europe you would like us to vote on it as is I just because I know there has your hesitant to defer it That's that's all Yes, please. Mr. Harris To the I guess new commissioner members will not supposed to be accepting Properers at our Commissioner me if there is any type of change to the presentation That we have here in the books. It should be continued That was what about a year and a half or two years ago that that was put in play because it was We were here at 11 12 o'clock working on properties And we could be tonight Anything change from what was in our packet. It's supposed to be continued They work it out and the package should be complete when they come to us We should have to work it out. So I'll be ready for the question. That's presented All in favor of the motion Let's do a roll call. Thank you. Miss mr. Alturk No Mr. Brian, yes Mr. Busby, yes It's Freeman. No, mr. Ghosh Mr. Harris, yes, mr. Miss Hyman Mr. Johnson, mr. Kenshin. Yes, mr. Miller, mr. Whitley Do I get to vote? Mr. Gibbs Motion carries eight to four Thank You mr. Jewel Item Joven revision item number z one six zero zero zero three three. We're ready for our staff report Thank You Jacob Wiggins with the Planning Department So this is a request Initiated by the Durham City County Planning Department This is a project that is located currently within the city's jurisdiction and this is a request to change a property from plan development Residential four point eight four zero to plan development residential four point eight four zero Technically there is no modification to the previously approved development plan at this site That development plan was approved in approximately 2006 by the Durham County Board of Commissioners Subsequently the subject site was annexed into the city of Durham last year with these previous approvals The subject site is highlighted in red in front of you This is it was the entire site I'm going down to Ellis Road was part of the previous rezoning In the mid-2000s As you can see at that time it was for a number of different zoning districts The portions to the south have been separately rezoned by the city that was actually approved earlier this year The intent of this particular rezoning request is to remove one text commitment from that previously approved development plan Again, there's no other modifications proposed to anything that was approved and the density will stay the same The removal of that text commitment is seen on this the screen here in front of you This is at the time of building permit the applicant shall pay a voluntary school impact fee of 1,000 per single family lot and 300 per multi-family unit with credit given appropriate against any other impact fees that may be in place The results of the request to remove This text commitment comes as a settlement agreement between the city of Durham the Durham Public Schools and the property owners They jointly agreed that the city would submit this request to remove this text commitment from the development plan Again, that is the only modification which is proposed as part of this request On the future land use map in front of you the the site Meets the future land use map again, it's presently zoned PDR and That meets the intent of the future land use map the comprehensive plan policies The site when it was originally approved met all the appropriate concept comprehensive plan policies I'm gonna give this request. There's no modification which would impact its effect on these policies So in terms of a determination the staff has determined that this request is consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies and ordinances And I'm happy to answer any questions that you all may have regarding this request Since I have no individuals to speak on this issue. I'm going to close the public hearing and Return the to the commissioners to see if their comments about this particular issue Commission or Miller Jacob you said settlement agreement. This is to resolve litigation over this issue and Yeah, Jacob Wiggins with the planning department. Yes, it was. Yeah, it was a quarter ordered settlement Other commissioners would like to speak to this issue Commissioner Brian I'm simply gonna Make a motion that we move Jumping revision case z1 6 0 0 0 3 3 Forward with a favorable recommendation second Excuse me motion by commissioner Brian second by commissioner Miller that we move item number z 1 6 0 0 0 3 3 fold with a favorable Recommendation all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by the usual sign of I All opposed eyes have it The next item that we have is say public hearing for the Unified Development Ordinance text amendment. Do we have a staff? report Yes, thank you Michael stock with the planning department Late hours. I'll try to be as succinct and brief as possible Text amendment TC 16 0 0 2 proposes technical amendments regarding traffic impact analysis standards within unified development ordinance As you may be aware TIA is a professional study regarding the impacts of proposed development on the roadway system And indicates any necessary improvements to that system as part of a proposed development The UDO establishes a period of validity for TIAs and staff has applied this period of validity to all TIAs Gluing those submitted as part of the zoning map change with the development plan The city attorney's office had advised that the current text of the UDO would not allow a period of validity to be applied to a TIA associated with the development plan and this has been confirmed by the planning director Thus or therefore Staff has initiated the text amendment to clarify that the expiration of a TIA also applies to TIA is approved with development plans and to establish procedures When such a TIA has expired Those procedures generally are two-fold a new TIA would be required If if a development site plan is submitted after the expiration date the expiration dates are usually eight years So it's a generous expiration date as it is so a new TIA would be required and if Only additional mitigation measures or no demitigation measures are needed Then they would just proceed on with site plan approval and do what's what's committed to in the development plan if there are modifications, then that would be considered a Significant change and we'll go back to the through the development plan review process Joint City County Planning Committee Reviewed the proposed amendments at its August 3rd 2016 meeting And there were no significant or additional revisions be happy to answer any questions. Thank you I have no one who has signed up to speak To this issue, so I'm going to return to the commissioners to see if commissioners would like to to speak I'll start with Commissioner Gauch Anybody else on this side? Okay, Commissioner Gauch and Commissioner Miller, thank you So I've talked with Staff about this before and so Michael stock I think is aware of of my concerns with it my main concern is on page two at the top of the page number two And part of the issue I think with this is that Essentially it it minimizes or in some ways Treats the zoning a development plan is zoning Treats it as something that can expire and it was explained to me by staff and it's a point that I agree with that while You may not be able to after eight years Develop to the full extent of the development plan you could probably develop to Within the confines of the development plan to a lesser number of units or less intense use or something like that And not have to go through a rezoning and I agree. I think that's a fair point. I think there are only a few Scenarios where that wouldn't be the case for example if you somehow on your development plan You know spelled out the use very very Specifically such that the only type of use that could be put there would be whatever it is That's requiring you to submit a new TIA So but I think those are probably That probably won't come up often, but if it does come up my concern is that you know, it's an area of Perhaps liability for the city. The other issue that I think This text change Doesn't consider is if a development takes longer than eight years or five years as the case may be Be it just seems to me that it would be an Unfair scenario for a development that took longer than eight years to complete that after that eighth year they're having to redo a TIA and then Change the rules up for now. They might have to widen the road even more or whatever Then what they had previously committed to my understanding is that that could happen under this scenario and I think it would be You know if there could be a provision that that Address multi-phase projects that take longer than eight years and somehow You know give that that scenario more consideration I think that would be useful, but I mean I definitely understand the concern Where a TIA is expired and no longer No, you know a development under the Previously approved zoning might not make sense Although to me that it does raise another issue, which is if you didn't develop in eight years Why would the TIA? Suggest that you need to do more than what you previously had to do if Your development that would have been approved would be taken into consideration with any TIA that was done afterwards. So I think there's a there's a could be an issue with are you really tying? additional TIA Commitments to the proposed development if the proposed development doesn't really change and haven't been developed previously So those are my concerns with it. I do I I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed But I don't know that this is the the perfect Text change not that We have to we can only approve perfect exchange, but thank you my point. Thank you Commissioner Miller So you've hit it exactly the thing that is upset me This essentially says that when a TIA is connection connected to a development plan rezoning That somehow the development plan itself expires. Well, it's it can't expire. It's the law I mean essentially you're saying if you got to do a new new TIA fine But if the new TIA says that there are things that That they're modifications new modifications that are required that weren't contemplated in the previous TIA if that's a deviation then that you're going to require The property owner to go through a rezoning you cannot under the law of this state require anybody to apply for a rezoning in my opinion that that TIA stays and That's just the way it goes. I mean what about rezoning's that don't require TIA's they face the same issues I mean that if the neighbors do if I don't develop my property in three years four years ten years And all the neighbors around me develop it super intense and now I come along I still get to the zoning is the zoning you cannot make somebody go through a rezoning And you can't tell them no Well, you can't submit a site a site plan when a site plan is required You and that's what the effect of this would be is you've got to submit a new TIA You might be able to tell them that they have to do that But if that TIA indicates according to some standard and and somebody says okay We want you to do something different than your development plan said you had to do therefore you either can't rezone Or we won't approve your site plan That's where this runs slam into the law of the state of North Carolina, and I can't support it Does it require a response? Madam chair, yes, thank you madam chair I'd like to invite the staff to offer their their feedback Particularly on the comments from my fellow commissioners just to help me understand the intent Of the proposal in front of us and and then if there are any changes that might be needed based on this input Yes, bill judge with transportation Yet the intent of the ordinance has written if you go back to the the section one right before it on the previous page If someone does a rezoning with a TIA and let's say there's four roadway improvements required And it's been eight more than eight years They do the new TIA the new TIA says those same four are required plus a fifth one is required If they're willing to do all five of those They can simply go through the site plan process if they're willing to agree to that if the TIA comes back and says Well only three of those are required The new TIA because traffic conditions or whatever have changed Three of them are required and maybe a fifth one still required, but the fourth one wasn't If they're still willing to do that fourth improvement that the rezoning is not required But if they wish to seek relief from that Improvement that the new TIA now shows is no longer needed or required or can be modified That's when the rezoning would be required The also issue is that these are all proffers so Development plan is coming to you and I'll be commitments that are put on it with the TIA our proffers as Commissioner Gauch has pointed out that Almost I'd say 99% of the development plans that come forward Don't limit themselves to a very specific use. It's usually either a maximum or there's a range of use is allowed So there's instances and he raised the point and we did consider and that was one of the reasons why we pulled it off of the October Meeting because we wanted to address his concerns Again that all these concerns were raised and discussed with the city attorney's office that we were going to create a zoning issue that commissioner Miller brought up but The way and if we need to take a look at tweak the wording a little bit to make it a little bit clear as to the intent We'll do that but These are all proffers if you're gonna self limit yourself to a use you self you've limited yourself It is not a A mandate of the zoning That was on the books it was a proffer as part of the development plan so There was not a concern by the city attorney's office that this was undermining state statute in terms of zoning and the ability to keep it that zoning lasts the lifetime as Bill indicated the intent is that if only there was a modification that the Applicant wasn't going to be willing to do that. They felt that what they wanted to get out of that committed element Then they are going back to The planning Commission and through the entire rezoning process Commissioner Freeman I Hear what Commissioner gauche and Miller are saying I Personally have an issue. Well, I appreciate the intent of this in that we just went through ever since church road and Similarly, I mean Traffic conditions change. I mean I've been on the side of fighting against the road widening and on Austin Avenue And if we happen to get that changed, I wouldn't want Any new developer coming in to have to still Have to meet the same requirement. You know, if they If it were possible to make sure that it was clear that the changes have been made already and that that as I'm sorry Mike had mentioned and they were actually able to just go through with it and fine, but the changes need to be made I think they need to come back to the Commission and it's important that that Everyone has a chance to hear it out In the open not just in the back room. Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here mission of Miller. Thank you so a Profer is an offer by a developer in a development plan But when the council approves the rezoning it becomes an ordinance it becomes the law that applies to that piece of property and You cannot Include in your zoning ordinance anything that requires somebody Said that denies their ability to develop their property And less they apply for a rezoning and that's the issue that that the way I read this could happen I mean if it comes along and you get a situation where if you're only worried about those things where people have Committed in their development plan to things that they subsequently prove not to have to do and you want to say if that occurs You still have to get you go through the rezoning process so that we can strike it out That I can live with because that's true because it because the alternative is as you can build it anyway My concerns the flip side is is that a new TIA would indicate a different set of things are required an Extra let turn lane or another stoplight or something like that That is not contemplated in the original committed elements and in my opinion You cannot say well you cannot build on your property until you have applied for a rezoning and we've got new Committed elements that in my opinion the law does not specifically where safety is concerned Well, it doesn't make any difference whether it's safety or not excuse me Not a back-and-forth conversation. Let me recognize at least one at a time. Okay. I'm done Thank you. So commissioner Freeman. Do you have additional comments just just in noting that I hear what you're saying, but If there's nothing to make them come back to the to the process I'm concerned Commissioner gauche just a piggyback off commissioner Miller's comments the Those are exactly my concerns and I and I did raise them and as my stock mentioned the playing department did look at that along with the city attorney and I actually spoke with the city attorney myself and I will say that my understanding and I don't want to Characterize mischaracterizing but my understanding from the conversation we had with that city attorney is aware of this issue and Evidently is not concerned because there are very few circumstances where the the property will be rendered undevelopable without resounding and I think that's what Miss miss stock was Mentioning there's only you know 99% of the time you could develop the property under the constraints of the development plan without any additional TIA or road improvements needed so you know for example if your development plan said a Maximum of a hundred residential units and that required for road improvements the the point that the planning department and the City attorney's office have come up with this You know well if you wanted to eight years later nine years later develop a hundred units And the TIA says well instead of four you have five you always have the option of doing 80 units in Which case you only have to do the four road improvements, so the property is not rendered Undevelopable and so that is I think the position that the city has taken on this matter Although I will say that I still can't support it. I mean I understand the point, but I I still view this as a Presenting an opportunity for Liability and I can't really support that but I do I did want to explain what I got from the city city attorneys office I'll recognize Commissioner brine and then commissioner Freeman has some additional comments Excuse me. I agree with Commissioner gush and Commissioner Miller and I'm very concerned because There is a major development in South Durham, which will go unnamed Which has taken a very long time to even begin to get started They did a major TIA and they are responsible for many many many road improvements Which has been mentioned in many other development plans that have come forth since then and Unfortunately, I think if they were told that they might have to do a new TIA because the old one has expired They wouldn't bother to come talk to the city attorney that would go talk to their friends in the general assembly And we might have changes that we don't want and I Can't help but say specific to that point I'm not afraid and I don't think we should be afraid and we shouldn't operate from fear because if the general assembly Wants to continue to act in the way that it has we should welcome it And we need to continue to do what we need to do in this city in this county Which is to continue to do To set the precedent not to bend to their will That's just it just it just rises up for me as an issue like there should be no fear on this Commissioner Brian and then we're gonna call for a vote. I'm not speaking out of fear. I'm just pointing out a potential Case that might come up. Can I get a motion for this? I'll move it Madam Chairman, I'm going to move that the Planning Commission send the technical change contained in TC 1 6 Quadruple 0 2 forward to the City Council with a favorable recommendation. I will be voting against it. I Have a motion by Commissioner Miller and a second by Commissioner Freeman that we send the UDO text amendment technical changes number TC 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 2 Forward with a favorable recommendation Let's have a roll call, please Mr. Al Turk. No Mr. Brian. No, Mr. Busby Miss Freeman. Yes Mr. Go's Mr. Gibbs. Yes Mr. Harris. Yes Miss Hyman. No, Mr. Johnson Mr. Kenshin. Yes Mr. Miller, Mr. Whitley. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Gibbs Oh, he did vote he voted yes The motion carry seven to five Fails seven to five The motion fails five to seven. Thank you I just I just want to take a moment and say that as commissioners here you really are gonna have to I'm gonna call you out, but There has to be a stance me and you can't base your opinions or your Arguments on what the state is going to do. We're not going to get anywhere like that Thank You Commissioner Freeman Let's move to the next item, which is new business the 2017 meeting dates Good evening commissioners Sarah young with the planning department before you you have your schedule set out for 2017 according to your general Meeting date this year. There were no adjustments due to holidays or anything. So the schedule is before you but you do need to adopt it Madam chair. I move I move adoption of the proposed 2017 planning Commission meeting dates. I'm sorry. I get a second commissioner free. Okay Commissioner Motion by commissioner Busby that we approve the 2017 calendar second by commissioner Freeman who also was trying to ask for something else, but all in favor of this I do have a you're not ready for the question Commission Brian just out of curiosity. When did Valentine's Day cease being a holiday? I Was in the middle of a serious motion All in favor of this motion, let it be known by the usual sign of I all opposed Thank you The next item that we have we have old business and I'm just going to mention this briefly This is about the this is Planning department work program and budget requests I will be submitting a budget on behalf of the commissioners The planning Commission by January 6 The budget will include some additional funds for training I'm going to put together a proposal But I would also like to hear from any of you if you have some ideas as to how we can do this and Train our commissioners on a rotating schedule based on the number of classes that are being offered It's 14 of us Which means that you know, we're going to have limited funds to do this So we will need to come up with a measure that allows us at least one or two courses and I'll need to be able to justify that and There will be no reimbursement process. So for those individuals who decide that they want to go ahead and take the classes We have not been able to come up with a reimbursement process per se So what I put in this budget is what we're going to have to defend it needs to be compelling So I will put it together if you have some input. I'd like to have it, but it will be done by January 6 Any questions madam chairman? I've taken the classes. So you have 13 people 13 people, okay, and you have taken Then I will hear from both of you as far as The cost of the you know the the cycle so I will be getting some input about the classes Miss Commissioner Whitley before January 6 So that you can have some input so if I don't hear from you then I'll send you what I have But I must get it to Sarah by January 6 Any questions, okay I have an item that would probably go under the Old business, okay great, and it has reference to the guidelines for the submittal of Development plan and committed elements and I'm strictly this is was adopted by the city and six six thousand September 6th 2000 September 6th 2006 and it was How should I say brought back up to us on April the 19th 2012 and I would like to reference just one paragraph of that document is Section D paragraph 2 and it says applicants are required to submit any proposed or Potential committed elements to the planning staff at least five business days before the public hearing if an applicant Offers a committed element at a public hearing that has not been reviewed in advance Staff will automatically request the two cycle continuance to allow time for adequate Review and that's prayer prayer phrasing that second paragraph And I would like for staff if you don't mind to just send us a copy of that So we can be mindful of what we're not supposed to be doing here Thank You Commissioner Harris. I appreciate that mission of Harris. I just want to be clear. It said staff The chair recognizes commissioner Freeman Staff would recommend to us. So if staff doesn't recommend it to us we should know this We as an advisory board have the freedom to Move past it is what you're saying No It's that would Just remind us again that we're not supposed to be proffering Working on proffers at our commission means Okay, and let's move to the next item Announcements wait a second madam chairman. We were given at our last meeting as a handout. Although it's dated October 19 City County Planning Department future projects Draft and that was with a cover memo and that my request since we hadn't had time to go over it I wanted to read it and then bring it back up at this time. We deferred action on it Let me be clear that we're still under all business then that would be that's that was the old okay Thank you. This is connected with that. Okay, so the staff has the high priority and Medium priority projects and I assuming if there's a low priority category. You don't list those they're that look And I just wanted a chance to say that I I mean to say that I have gone over this and looked at them and I have a couple of other projects I think it's appropriate for the Planning Commission to advise the city council on this if we all agree to do it There are a couple of things that I would add to the priority things and maybe even demote a couple of priority items down to medium if if everybody agreed I Would like to have us undertake a while there's still time a comprehensive rezoning plan for the larger East Durham area and that would include Looking at the zoning for this larger East Durham zoning area Including in that how it relates to the proposed Austin Avenue compact tier. I really want to make we have one chance to see a Revitalization and redevelopment of East Durham one chance to get it right and to let it happen Parcel by parcel project by project zoning case by zoning case just doesn't seem to me to be the way to go when I look at the zoning Atlas for the city of Durham The place where the zoning is incongruent with a use on the ground and any kind of sensible sort of organization and arrangement It's East Durham and it seems to me that I would like to get over there I don't want to do a whole small area plan or anything like that I just want to deal with zoning and say, you know this it seems to me There's just millions of little things that under any other circumstances would be spot zones How they got there? I don't care about a lot of them don't even matter anymore there because so we so much of the land Over there has become vacant through teardowns But I would like to get over there and and say if we're going to have a renewed interest in developing East Durham It needs it can't be the Wild West it needs to be We need to think it through and so I would like to add that to our list of priority projects Another area that I would like to do at some point if it's not a project for planning staff a project for the Staff and the commission to do together we get lots of rezoning requests. I seem to spend a lot of time driving over to places over in these I 70 I 47 I 40 corridors and back and around like to I don't know if you went over and looked at that Joven property gosh You had to drive all over around and to get back in there and to see what they're doing back there. I Worry that again, we're doing it a piece of property at a time When I would like to see a bigger picture I would like to have a time when somebody shows me on the on the screen Saying this is our vision for these corridors that are the hot places for development And so when you know we look at Ellis Road here and then around the corner We've got this Joven property and I mean and you know you have to drive all over hell's half acre to get to it But when in fact, it's a practically next door I would like to to And maybe it's just my fault I don't have a clear vision of what we want that part of Durham to look like and I would love to get together And look at the map and say this is this is what we want And if I had to drop things off the high priority project list down to medium priority in order to accomplish that I would Look at item 6 and item 7 there And maybe even item 8 Now of course, I don't realize because I I don't know how these got on here I haven't been on the Planning Commission long enough to be so familiar I don't know whose ox. I'm goring by suggesting that these should move down a category But I know that not everything can be high priority And so if you want to add a high priority item you ought to knock one down It seems to me that that 10 is enough. That's a good number Moses worked with that number as I recall And he still hasn't actually implemented all of them the Medium priority projects. I Don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with those but at some point I would love to be able as a as an advisory body to the city and the county to say We think you ought to add This project and that Eastern project to me is really important because the time is right now Yes, Stan Sarah So let me it might be helpful to explain what this magical list before you is It is not a list that says that we will do the high priority projects first or the medium priority projects last Or that we will do any certain amount of projects in any given year It is just a working list for staff to be able to when we put together our work program proposal based on feedback We will have a conversation at the beginning of the year with the joint city county planning committee Which is the committee that helps guide the work of the planning department as you know The work program for the department is set by the city and the county our bosses the managers and the council and commissioners What we use this list for is kind of a springboard to have discussion with the joint city county planning committee I Assume that what will happen is they will pick things from that list. They may move things around We need to I need to finish looking at the existing work program and see how far we're actually going to get this year How much rollover of projects that are multi-year projects will happen in future years and the amount of capacity that that's going to leave me in staff resources how much we could add back next year To kind of compensate for things that we're going to clear off the docket this year So don't let the medium priority high priority trip you up That's nothing other than staff's cursory evaluation of what we may or may not want to as our staff recommendation to push for But it has no others meaning. It's not an adopted list in any way It's a working list. So I would just caution don't get hung up on that that something needs to be moved It's our list and all the needs to be moved. It's just a menu to choose from then if I may madam German Can I can I have some The chair recognizes commissioner Whitley, I am happy They will want to do something to to make To to get some some contiguous zoning done They are five focus spots in northeast central Durham. They're already designated and None of those five spots have Consistent, I mean zoning goes all the way back 40 50 years You know and it looks like a quilt of different colors you know and and Would that be so wonderful? You have 13 Maybe more but I know 13 neighborhoods That have active communities in them You know out of the five five focus spots We would have to work out some kind of system so that they can have some input And I think there's there's There's I Think council will look upon that favorably Yes, I think I think there at least I think there at least four votes or more to make that happen Thank you for bringing it up. I'm very proud of my fellow commissioners for even Thinking about it. Madam chair Commissioner Brian had My comments will be brief Just on item two on the list When you're looking at compact neighborhood future land use map Take a close look at what was done out on the edge of research triangle part because I think you've put some things in place There that don't belong We dealt partially with one of them with a rezoning case but That area is not really designed to be have compact neighborhoods around it You're looking at transfer stations and Then I really had a question about item number six the Durham Technical Community College I'm assuming you're talking about both the north and south campus Just I think it's just the south campus to be honest Thank you. Yep, I would say The point you just brought up about the compact neighborhoods around RTP You'll notice that those were not part of the most recent Compact neighborhood update project that we did Those are basically on hold for our purposes We will at some point go back and revisit them When we kind of see the resolution Of the longer range plans for rail But we are not actively working on those those are kind of in a holding pattern To see what the future may bring that may be something that we tackle in a future comprehensive plan Which I'm not 100% sure what version of the high and medium priority list you have but Does it have the comp plan at the top as number one Okay, good. So Okay, yeah, sorry, I know I've made a few amendments to it, and I am not 100% sure when I'm date those but And also in regard to a comment Commit your mill that you made in terms of the vision for certain corridors. I think that's another one of those things that Staff feels like the current comprehensive plan does a poor job of actually setting out a vision If you actually read the comprehensive plan, it doesn't really have a comprehensive vision for development has a lot of Desperate no, it has a lot of disparate policies covering a lot of subject areas And some policies are stronger than others But if if someone were to say, you know, how do you want Durham to develop and we would say oh go look at the Comprehensive plan it wouldn't find anything So that is something that staff would certainly Cover your support on as we move forward because I think that is overarching and can really kind of reset the tone for all of Durham really Yeah Commissioner Gibbs I would I have a question about Commissioner Miller's East Durham comments, I don't what first of all Is it to also establish the size the area of a quote East Durham and Will we have Any official input Will how will this develop because if it Requires a committee or something. I would like to be the first to Join up I respond Adam chairman. I don't have a set vision and I do think that what is East Durham matters because So that would be one of the things what what is East Durham? I have an idea. It may not correspond to your idea But I do think it we have neglected it for a long time but the development community has rediscovered it and I don't want them to redevelop it based on a on a Regulatory environment that is based that is Is the result of a lot of neglect? It's time to get in there and and Say this is make a plan for it and again I know that that it's tempting to want to make some sort of gigantic comprehensive plan But I'm afraid I don't want to choke on anything right now. What I'm interested in is the way it's And so I would love at some point And I would like to be advised by staff on this if I may madam chairman on how we make it how we can discuss this issue And just come up with a collective Recommendation if that's what you want to do is planning Commission. I mean we're supposed to be advising the city and county I would like to offer some advice on What to do about East Durham if we can come to consensus and then to Consultation with staff how to communicate any advice we have concerning that to the council and I took this Project list which I found to be actually took a lot of comfort in this. It's like okay It's people are thinking about stuff. I I took this as an opportunity to say maybe by If we can append something to this to get it in to get it on somebody's list So that it gets churning and it goes to the JCC PC and it goes to the city council and it goes to the board of commissioners and it's also considered by the the director of the planning director and is in in his advisors I Think it's something that we need to do and I think we're going to Good a you know good planning and zoning means that we'd make a plan and that we stick to it And I'm worried that he's we've treated East Durham badly and it's time to to treat it right Madam chair, can I respond please? Yes, commissioner Gibbs and I'll be brief. I Do agree with you that there needs to be East Durham needs to be dealt with in a more comprehensive way I Just and at the outset I want to get the matter of Edmont in the conversation from the very absolute beginning because they are two absolutely different areas historically presently any otherwise and that's That's that's going to be one of the issues That's going to need to be Covered because I do not want Edmont to be lost and Maybe in our January meeting if Could we have some kind of Well, this was Could I recognize? Mel if you I didn't get everything you said What was your idea about a January meeting? I think what we we need to do is Those commissioners that are willing to work on a project like this to take to counsel If we can get together and come up with some wording that make it clear, you know edge find Those neighborhoods are already in northeast central Durham the city has already have It's all it's already in a hundred and twenty block area the focus for new development is is there right so all we have to do is get that map and and and Have something that we can pass for our County Commissioners to vote on and and if we can do that in 30 days, and I think we can Let's get it done Let me just make one comment and since staff is standing here. Is there an appropriate process? I hear that's going back and forth. Is there an appropriate process for This this recommendation to be made The appropriate process would be for you all to vote on an official recommendation to the planning department of what your ask would be For work program consideration What will happen to that as we will package that along with things we may hear from other boards Some requests that we've heard independently from Specific city council members and we'll package all of those options together to take to joint city county planning committee Where there will be a discussion about work program priorities for next year And the that will generate the draft work program for next year. Thank you keep nice Commissioner Harris had a comment Well, I heard that as a recommendation for how you know how the process would work So is that so my next question is going to be is that something that we want to do? Madam chair what I'm going to the motion I am going to make is a procedural one is that we place this on our agenda for January because I mean Everybody here is caught off-guard because I came with with a few notes scattered on the margins of a piece of paper It's we're not ready. I don't think to adopt any kind of resolution, but I would like to put it on our January agenda so that we can talk about it and and at that time maybe I can bring a Hundred words and that makes a little bit more comprehensive sense and people will have it an opportunity to know what to respond to I would agree with that too The chair recognizes commissioner buzz me. Thank you madam chair I would agree as well I guess just the one question for staff is do you need I know the joint city county planning Committee is meeting in January is this on their January agenda or if we deal with this in January That's still proper timing for this to move through the process. Yeah, this will not be on their January agenda We may have some informal conversation, but the most likely the official item will go to them in February I had asked as part of in conjunction with the budget request by January 6 work program requests We're also requested by then since staff has time to Digest and prep our item for the February joint city county. However, since you're meeting just a few days beyond that I would be amenable to Allowing you all a few extra days To get me that great given the hour. I think that I agree with commissioner Miller. Let's put this on the January meeting. Thank you So I need a motion to move the planning department work program to the January meeting So move second Okay, motion by Camiller motion by commissioner. It's late motion by commissioner Miller and second by commissioner Brian that we move the planning work program to the January Project to the January meeting all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by the usual sign of eye all opposed eyes have it Announcements Okay You want to tell us what's next mine? Nothing, I hope you know honestly with grace out. I'm not 100% sure what we have cooked up two cases I'm getting the universal to case sign from from To take two zoning cases one of them with a plan amendment Do you remember off the top of your head there? One of them is four thousand Danube and the other one we don't remember but we can certainly Madam chair if I might One additional announcement The planning director Steve medlin for those of you that don't know is retiring effective December 30th There is a reception in his honor here in City Hall Thursday this Thursday At yes at three o'clock in the committee room. You all are invited if you're available To join us, but he has graciously served the city in the county for more than 30 years and he will be missed I will be the interim director So madam chair Along those same lines Steve medlin is retiring and the city and county has Employed the same agency that the city employed to get our new chief of police and I have been asked to serve on that committee and if you guys have any Expectation what you would like in a and the next Director for the planning department if you would submit, you know me an email a job me a note And we can take that forward to this agency That's going to do the search for the new Directed for the planning department for the city of Durham Madam chairman may Yes, please madam Miller Given the the news that we've just received I move that the planning commission adopt a resolution of appreciation and thanks to mr. Medlin for his career and planning Here in the city of Durham and also well the city and county of Durham That we go ahead and adopt it now even though that we might draw the paperwork up and present it later It has been moved and properly second that will I have a motion to present a resolution for our retiring Planning director Steve meddling so I have a motion by commissioner Miller and a second by commissioner Freeman that we provide a resolution For the occasion Details to be designed all in favor of this motion. Let it be known by the usual sign of I all opposed Thank you madam chair I Had a question for you Grace you mentioned this reception Sarah sorry you mentioned the Reception what time throughout thank you Thank you any other announcements hearing none motion to adjourn