 I'm so excited for today's conversation and just as we start every episode, Julie and I like to extend our sincerest appreciation to all of our presenting sponsors. You can see their logos in front of you on the screen. So many of these sponsors have been with us elevating not only our episodes of the nonprofit show coming up on 300 soon, but really the sector at large. So these organizations have been right here by your side, leaning in, lifting you up and supporting every step through this, you know, navigation period into recovery phase. So thank you each and every one of you for your support. Thanks to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy, and also I'm Jarrett Ransom, the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And this week we're packing a punch so we've had some really amazing guests. We have some amazing guests coming up later this week, many that I want you to check out. But today I want you to sit back or get your ear pods in whatever you need to do to really focus turn off your distractions. And I would like to welcome Emily Holt house, managing director, diversity, equity and inclusion at nonprofit HR. Welcome Emily. Thank you, Jared. I am so excited to join the conversation with y'all today. Thanks for having me. Okay, so we know you're a Texas girl when you say y'all. I just heard it. I love it. I have this weird dichotomy I grew up in Minnesota so I've got this strange Minnesota slash Texas accent going on so you might hear a little bit of both of those. Well, it's perfect I grew up in the southeast I was born in Georgia raised in South Carolina, and it slips up from time to time so you're in good company. You have a tech soda accent accent. I like it. I really have you on because this is something that we've really been needing to talk about for a long time across our planet, especially our world. In the nonprofit sector I think we've been speaking about de I a little bit more than others but yet it is still incredibly misunderstood. And we thought, we'd really like to talk to you today because you came to us and it you use the words actualizing your DEI strategy and I think Jared and I were like, yeah, it's like making it work not just talking about it. And we were so excited Emily so I got to start from the beginning and have you describe and define de I. And this is made a lot of different things to different people so I'm glad we're going to ground here first and so from my vantage point diversity is just all of those amazing things that we bring to a space in place that make us unique and sometimes we'll say things like, oh well we need a diverse person for this or we need a diverse person for that a person on their own can't be diverse it's about what we bring to a space or place and once we're gathered, how those differences show up in between each other right so it can be things like we jump to race and age and gender and that's where we go first, but it's things like family status or things like geographic location or things like ability or things like body type, all of those things shape who we are and how we show up in spaces how we make decisions how we empathize etc so it's about all of that that we bring to the space that's diversity. And we don't we can't change that it is what it is. And inclusion is that part that says okay now what we're all here in this space, we're all bringing these differences to the table and to the space in place. How do we engage each other, how do we make it so that Jared and Julie can show up as their authentic selves in a space in place. How do we embrace and pull people close to us, trust make decisions, and help people really feel like they belong in an environment and that's really the business case for inclusion and creating that environment is because it's about the other person. We don't want people coming to our spaces in places feeling like they don't belong and I think we can all reflect on times where that's happened right where we've been in places where we felt on the outside of the peripheral. And that inclusive environment where everyone can bring their whole authentic selves to the table is what we're talking about there. And then for me equity is that systems part of it all and and people is important interactions are important. But equally important is how well the systems and processes are working and equity is this idea that we want to make sure that people have what they need to be successful. We want to acknowledge all of those different dimensions of diversity that maybe creates and different starting points for individuals based on any of those dimensions of diversity that that we talk about. Sometimes we transpose equality and equity, and I would say, actually they're quite different concepts so quality is that idea that we're going to treat everyone the same it's the right thing to do right we all want equal rights to vote. One of us that have kids we want our kids to have equal snack at snack time that's not a time for equity, but there is a time for equity when we say, not everyone has the same starting points so Jared you might need something different to be successful in an environment then I might need based on different dimensions or different starting points that we have an equity says we're going to solve for that, and we're going to give everyone what they need to be successful and it may or may not be an equal thing that we need to get there. And the reason why this is important is because we all live in these systems that were often built far before we all came into them and equity says sometimes we have to make adjustments for systems that aren't working for everyone and make that acknowledgement. And then at the end of the day to our job is once we recognize the system might not be working, we help people get what they need but then we also reimagine or dismantle or fix or blow up said system. So that it begins to work for everyone regardless of their dimensions of diversity so equity is sort of the foundational piece for me because it's the systems, and then diversity is how we're showing up in said system and inclusion is how we're treating each other in said system. Thank you for grounding this because I do think for us to have common definitions is really important in our organizations but then also, you know that's parallel for this discussion today. Now I've heard Jedi so I've heard a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion, but now it's like there's this new term called Jedi, which includes the J for justice. What exactly does that mean and how is that different. Yeah, it is different and basically Jedi says that we're going to center justice first and equity as that foundation. And then those things will drive the diversity and inclusion and organizations and so I know that especially a lot of my colleagues that are in this space where organizations that are really wanting to get into the justice aspect of the conversation they center that first and they make decisions they set priorities based on justice first and our firm is actually thinking about that too as a rebranded. I was joking with somebody it's it's important but also how cool would it be to have Jedi master on my job. Absolutely. So, you know that's that's cool too but I think at the end of the day it's really, how do we re center justice at the front of the conversation versus centering diversity at the front of the conversation. And it's just a mind shift or a different parallel for the work. I think we're changing so quickly in society I like that it makes it also the imperative is to be flexible and and to be at the forefront of new thought action indeed, as opposed to just like making these statements. It's more important to say okay this is how and why and what. And along with that I'd love for you to talk to us about. How do we get this into the other parts of our, our operational strategy, such as our mission, our, you know, mission vision and values goals, what does that look like. Absolutely and I think it's important for all organizations but specifically nonprofit organizations to figure out why de is important to you being able to do your work and amplify your mission in the community and I think at the end of the day. There are clear tie backs if we want to serve and support communities that means all members of community and so this conversation is not optional. It's imperative for sustainability across the board and we also know that if it's not integrated into what is important for the organization so if we don't sort of specifically call it out as part of our messaging if we don't have it embedded as a strand throughout our strategic plan. We're all busy and we're doing the day today and it's not going to get prioritized and it's not going to get done. We prioritize a lot of things nonprofits who takes care of the money we prioritize safety we prioritize all these other things. I'm suggesting that DEI should hold that same level of prioritization that you would for any of the other things that we deemed to be important, because at the end of the day, it is important to your relevancy your ability to amplify your mission your ability to just survive a long term today in the United States right now, more than 50% of kids under the age of 18 identifies kids of color, multicultural kids of color today. That is our future. And if we're not positioning inclusiveness, equity, justice into what we do, our future is not going to be connected to who we are as an organization so it's incredibly important and I think board members need to know and understanding that they need to be an accountability partner team members throughout the organization and then also just that connection to the mission we serve our constituents and and making sure that it's all tied together. Because if you all remember what happened last year with all of the events in the Twin Cities my hometown, and there were all these organizations that were throwing these statements up there. Hey, we believe in this, this and this, and then their constituents and their team members are like, whoa, wait a minute. That's not how we're experiencing your organization. What you're saying doesn't match up to what we're experiencing. And that we're held accountable in a way never before right our teams are not going to allow that to happen so it needs to be embedded throughout the organization and clearly connected to how you're going to perform your mission so that it isn't that smoke and mirrors effect that we saw with a lot of organization flash gear. Absolutely so many organizations, I want to say, and we've talked about this Julia, we have a lot. They made the statement, and that was it, or you know they posted a black square on their Instagram or they posted something on social media, and that was it and they didn't go beyond that. And so to really match up the actions with the statement and to use that as to what you said sorry only is that really seeing that you know what is your constituency based experiencing. What is their experience beyond that statement. I have a question because what I'm seeing and I'm curious how I can be a better ally in this space. This is not my Bailey wick, I am leaning in super hard into this conversation and learning so much. But I'm curious by way of budget right so I do a lot of strategic planning process sessions I do a lot of conversations with the board. I do bring this topic up again, not my area of expertise, but what should I be advocating for when it comes to that commitment beyond really the statement and I'm thinking specifically around budget. Now I'm sure there's much more to that and I'm welcome because I would like to learn as well how I can better, you know, provide information. And I think it's an investment in the budget perspective and the money but also the human investment is also equally important so both. But I think as you're thinking about it there's lots of things related to infusing equity into an organization or creating inclusive environments that cost you nothing right and. But there are also things like investing in embedding DEI education and learning throughout your employee experience that might be a cost that you have to incur that's really important. Another thing is you may need an outside person to help look under the hood to get at your current state because when you're swimming in the water. Can't see what's happening. So you may need to invest in an outside person to come in and help you to do that initial assessment to understand your current state so those are investment pieces that I encourage people. What can't you do on your own to be successful and then make carve out time to invest in that. But then I also think about this idea of investing in people. So knowing that if people in the organization are paid to have this be a part of what they eat sleep and breathe every single day. It's going to get you further with integration then saying oh well it belongs to everyone when it kind of belongs to know me and so I also depending on the evolution of your organization. If you're at a place to invest in a DEI leader at the high level of your organization where they have influence to blow up said systems and can influence the board and tell the CEO when they might have micro abreast and really have the power that is necessary, making that investments at the strategic level and organizations I think is a really important piece to the puzzle as well so those are just a few things investment wise that I would say, consider and think about. So Emily, is this something that you could add on as I'm thinking two things you find somebody and I'm thinking it's probably going to be more of like an HR professional that you add this title on to, or is this something like that you get an outside person who is your DEI or Jedi specialist, and you somehow plug them in, you know, to your organization I mean can you do both or either what is that I've seen I've seen it work both ways Julia actually and ideally at the end of the day, having someone whether it's an outside person or an inside person that you are allowing to have the right level of influence and access to power and ability to change things is what's most important about that and whether it's an outside person that you connect with to do it with you and, or you grab somebody internally and I've seen it connected to the HR function I've also seen it disconnected from the HR function and just a function on the senior team that that is what we do we drive inclusion access belonging engagement internally and externally and that's that person's whole job right so I've also seen it work really well depending on the structure of the organization to be separate from each other because really DEI HR is an important part of it, you know bias creeps into HR life cycle systems so fast right so that's important, but also, it's really broader than that and DEI needs to permeate the entire organization so you also don't want to get it siloed that it's just an HR thing and that that team is responsible for it to I see that and I appreciate you kind of reframing that for me because I think I have placed it just on as an HR thing, and I can see that if your organization does that in some ways it's just going to be, it's going to be locked in with like insurance benefits, you know, it won't be given the attention that it's due. I was really interested in you mentioned this briefly in the chitty chat chat. Talk to us about assessments. And so we can figure out what we need and where we're struggling. And Julia just one quick thing that you made me think of and I also look at it like this, like the CEO and the organization that stands for a chief executive officer but really that's also chief equity officer I also see the CEO is having a big role to play to us as we're talking about that as well. Yeah, every CEO, you know that's part of what you're in charge of as the leader of the organization is having equity be at the core of what you do. Can we take this further and I don't mean to stop you're thinking oftentimes in our nonprofit sector, the CEO title is interchanged with the executive director right like that is another title that I think I hear sometimes more often the CEO, but I'm assuming that's also equity Yes, I agree. So it doesn't matter if you are at the head of the organization where powers concentrated equity is part of your job inclusion is part of your job, setting the tone for all of that allocating resources being the champion that is part of your job. And you know, Jerry you talked earlier about that idea of ally ship and how do I be a stronger ally, like I'm going to push you like I want you to be on ally because ally kind of tastes like I'm cheering for something that's outside of me and I'm going to support you and and I'm going to do that. But with equity and inclusion and things like dismantling racism organizations, we all need to be in the game together and that and it impacts all of us right and we all need to be active and sort of seeing ourselves getting past. And especially if you're at the top of the organization, where powers concentrated. It just needs to be about how you're active and equity is part of your leadership brand. Just who you are showing up in the organization and whether you identify as someone from a marginalized population or not it doesn't matter, because it takes all of us to win this game together and all of us need to be active in it together. Thank you. Thank you for that challenge and for educating me really really in the language right and then as I had said, I am leaning into this hardcore a lot of learned behavior from the geographic area in which I grew up right and so learning through that and of course spending so a lot of time in the nonprofit sector and in so many vulnerable communities. So thank you that that comes gently and I appreciate it. Well, and also allyship is an important stuff along the way I'm just saying that's not the end stop like we want to keep going right and sort of get into that level of ownership because at the end of the day. When we all feel that level of ownership that's when it's going to start to change quicker right and and for us to get in that together is really important. Well, let's talk about those stops right like how do we know that we've achieved success. Is that something that it's like okay we've put in, you know, a Jedi, I really like using that term we've put in a Jedi policy, we've engaged in a person consultant, what have you, like when do we know that we've achieved success. Yeah, so that's a great question and to be honest, this is an everyday all day on repeat activity right and so success really is about integration and it's about our leaders making decisions to support equity outcomes every day all day and so you know I tell my clients like this will jump in with you but there are no stickers at the end of the consulting engagement to say you've arrived you don't get to put something in your window that says you made it. The way that you know and understand is that you will start to see some of the outcomes that you're hoping for shift or change you will start to see your relationships with your community broadening you will see your staff being more engaged and more connected and staying longer so you're going to start to see a lot of the changes your, your diversity metrics will be more reflective of the communities that you're looking to serve, you will have more diverse voices and perspectives in places of power in your organization. You'll start to see all these things shifting. But at the end of the day, there is no arrival point to go and and getting in that space with each other just requires all of us to be leading this way. Long term and and that's why I love that y'all are talking about this idea of integration and organizations because the checkbox approach isn't going to get you there and getting to the end of the checklist does not mean that you're finished by any means it's just really thinking about what's next and what we need to continue to move forward. Well, you know, I would think when you're measuring success to it seems to me at this point measuring success is starting with acknowledgement, like, okay, we are going to be on the journey of this discussion and practice. There are a heck of a lot of people that are will not or do not see this a value. And, you know, I think we've got to be able to say this is heavy lifting, but ultimately this does make us more successful. And we don't know what that looks like because we've never done it before. Yeah, absolutely. And I think measuring success does start with the question you posed previously it's just understanding your starting point right you have to know. How does it feel to be in your organization, where is power concentrated how do we make decisions with each other how transparent are we so what is the environment feel like is what you need to know and understand. And I always say to people do you know do you know the answers that question, how does it feel to be part of your organization from a staff standpoint, from a constituent standpoint you need to get the answer to that. I'm just wondering to know and understand, are there any historical things that have happened in the past that we need to acknowledge and own in order to let us go forward. I was working with the client the other day and they were challenged and struggled because they had a large Hispanic Latino population in their community and they're like Emily, we just can't get that group to engage with us we try different things. So what I asked them to do is to go out to that community and have some conversations, and what they recognize is that something that organization did 15 years ago to really diminish the value of that community. 15 years later that community still is not ready to reengage because we've never acknowledged the inequity that occurred before right so getting that starting point is important, and then also taking it a stab at what are your systems and processes like today. Are you working for everyone are they not specifically the employee life cycle is that place so looking at the people side looking at the system side and saying where is our starting point and documenting some of those benchmarks and not feeling bad about it. Who has those conversations right. Who goes into the community and I'm sure that's a multifaceted response but my my first thought honestly Emily is maybe a near peer of the community so someone that you know is a part of the organization already but also has ties into the community. Can you tell us more about that. I mean I would say maybe yes and maybe no, because at the end of the day, if I'm the executive director of that organization and I'm in charge of charting the path forward. Maybe I just got here but that doesn't matter because I now represent the organization and so if I'm going in meeting to connect with the community that community is going to want to hear from me. Wow, we messed this up a while ago, we acknowledge that we're on our journey to get better we want to connect and understand how to repair what we need to repair. And sometimes it just, it comes from that place the humility from the organization overall and so I'm not sure that it needs to be someone who has the connector point. It really has to be just authentically like listen. We're trying to do better here we're we're on our journey, and we're here to acknowledge and understand and listen and hear so that we can learn and get better right and that needs to come from the top of the organization oftentimes I will say the executive director your board members, your key team members need to be involved in it, and it needs to be a commitment on behalf of the organization so it can't just be one person that communities know really well that's out there with them, because people will see that as sort of well they sent that person out here because they know that they can connect with us more and so it really is about. We're going to get in that uncomfortable space of saying you know what we're going to own it, and we're committed to doing better and then your actions need to reflect that commitment of movement. Yeah. You know, I think that it's almost like, I think of when you when you speak about this Emily it's like the old fashioned PR train, you know, we're going to get the leader back out into the community and introduce and chat and, you know, have a coffee, have whatever people put those leaders on the front line so that they can be hearing and seeing what things look like and we don't do that enough with our leaders we're sending the PR folks out or we're not. You know, we're stepping back. I don't know if it's like, we fool ourselves into thinking oh we have so much to do in the office we can't get out. And certainly the pandemic has, you know, changed that but it just seems to me that we don't have leaders willing to go out and say to your point this is going to be hard. And I look like this so I don't know what that looks like and I need help and I'm willing to, you know, learn and change. I think too one of the things that again I'm sharing this from a very place of a big place of vulnerability. Sometimes I don't know what to say, right or I'm afraid that I'm going to say the wrong thing. And I think many of us that are leaning into this space and you know do this in a place for organization. I just want to throw that out that that might be a challenge or an obstacle that is being thought of. That's a real thing and Jared when we're talking about that idea of moving beyond allyship. That is one of the biggest things that leaders need to get past is that fear of making a mistake preventing you from getting an action right because at the end of the day, you're not going to say everything perfectly you're going to make mistakes. I've been doing this work for 20 years and I say the wrong things sometimes it's true it happened. So you will you will get into those spaces of incomfort you will get into spaces where you didn't frame something properly. But the more we just start to say we're going to get out there because being in action is better than being perfect. Because that authenticity over perfection is what's required here. And at the end of the day you might get misunderstood and said your motivations aren't right even though you know that they are. What does it mean you stop. That means you just sort of keep going and the more you lean into that discomfort, the easier it becomes, as you continue to do it right but Jared what you're naming is real, and it's valid, and we just have to say how do we push through that, and as we begin to sort of go to that humble place and Julia to your point, getting out into the communities and having those conversations is, is this scary thing to do a we might not know what the answer is going to be or might not be ready for what the answer the conversation is. But it's also required for us to really be able to make the impact for our entire community, you know it's just part of what we need to get into the system of doing because if we're going to sit in our office and do things to communities versus doing things with communities and through long term, it's not going to serve you or your community the way that it needs to be served so. And that's why we're here nonprofits are here to help provide a solution to a community problem. That's right. You don't make cookies you don't build microchips you don't build cars, you're about building community kids families adults. Yeah, and that's what it is. You are amazing. I'm looking at my clock and I'm like, No, I just want you to stand still. I know I Emily wow this is amazing so we had your CEO on a couple weeks ago and we thought wow okay we've died and gone to heaven. And she we were talking about women and leadership we loved that and then somebody else on your team was like, I don't know we tell Emily son. They're very sweet. Thank you. And you're hiring the nonprofit HR team is hiring I just saw that on LinkedIn the other day so check them out they've got a great robust page of open position so. Yes, we love we love talented amazing people from all over the country so I love thank you for throwing out there. You're interested. Yes. That's, it's amazing. Well this has been fabulous, you know, we need to have more of these discussions and so we've got to get you back on because I've learned a lot and I know that this is something that to your point it needs to be at the front, coming from the top down and then linking across our organization so this is super cool. Again I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy, been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself chair ransom CEO of the nonprofit. Excuse me the radio group of the nonprofit nerd group. I've only said this now for more than a year. It's it's okay you know like it happens. Well anyway, wow what a great conversation I just want to also thank Mary Highland, who had me on her inspired leadership podcast if you want to check that out. Here's the link it's really an interesting wrap up of what are some of the things that I've learned over the past year. And it was a great conversation so if you're looking for more time with me which I don't think you need to be but I wanted to thank Mary for including me on that as well. Hey, presenting sponsors without you we would not be here and we are very very grateful that you allow us the opportunity to come in and have such amazing guests as we've had today with Emily whole house. So basically, thank you, thank you, thank you for opening this door that we've walked through and continue to walk through every day. And so we want to make sure that that you support them as they support us. Another amazing way for me to start my day. Hey, Mr. phenomenal Emily, I and I said this to your CEO. And I just like you know I want to pick a handful of people to go on a retreat but, and you're definitely on that list so thank you for joining us today. Let's do it. much for joining us today. Welcome you back anytime. I know we have some of your other colleagues from the nonprofit HR joining us. And I look forward to our conversations and discussions with them as well. So thanks to all of you joining us for another amazing episode of the nonprofit show. Hope you'll join us tomorrow. And until then, stay well, so you can do well. Thanks, everyone.