 Good morning or afternoon, depending on where you're located. This is Una Daly from the Community College Consortium for OER. And welcome, everyone. This is our April community advisory meeting. And I'm very excited about the topic of open pedagogy. And we'll get to that in just a moment. And of course, we'll have Quill West presenting on that. And she's leaving a discussion this morning based on an article, a chapter that was sent out a week ago with our announcement. And again, yesterday, this is a article by Robin DeRosa and Scott Robison on open pedagogy that was recently published in the open book editors from Steve and Robert Fisbos. So I hope some of you have seen that and had a chance to read it. So, really exciting to try a new model. We're also using go to meetings this morning. So the nice thing about that is that our chat window is available to everybody and we'll be taking a look at the chat as we go through their comments there. And in addition, there's going to be live notes that will be taken as well. We're looking for a volunteer on that one. So please let us know if you can help out with that piece of it. I hope everyone can find the chat window there in their little control panel. All right, so we're going to welcome our new members. We have a number of new members that have come in in the last three months. We're really excited about that. We have a couple of quick announcements about some of the successes in the open education community that I think probably many of you have heard, and I'd like to share them one more time. And then we'll get to the open pedagogy topic. And finally, at the very end, we'll have some time for open discussion if you have things that you'd like to bring up. All right, well, first of all, of course, I want to welcome everybody who's here this morning, our old and new members. And if you would share in the chat window your name and what institution you're with and what you're interested in OER. But I want to make a special welcome to the following colleges, which just joined us as CCCOER members. We are part of the larger global community, the Open Education Consortium. And so these folks are now members of CCCOER at the Open Education Consortium. So the IT Tech Community College in Indiana, we're very pleased to have them join us. I don't know if anyone is on there. Is on today from Ivy Tech. Second up, and these are in alphabetical order. So it is Lakeland College from Ohio, and we're very pleased to have Lakeland College. That is our second college in Ohio. So very pleased to have them on board. Mira Coast and Community College in California just joined us this month, and we're very pleased to have them on board. We have quite a number of California colleges, but we always love to have more. And California has 115 community colleges. So it's a big one. We also would like to welcome Mitchell College, which just applied last week, and is in the process of a formal acceptance, but we expect to accept them in May. They're from North Carolina, and that's our first member college in North Carolina. Here's College District. Jeff joined us from Washington State. We're very pleased to have them. We have a number of college, joined us earlier this year in February, and they're in Florida, and we're very pleased to have them. We have a number of Florida colleges for members. San Jose City College in San Jose, California joined us last month in March, just in time for Open Ed Week, and we're very pleased to have them on board. Tarrant County Community College in Texas joined us this last month, joining quite a number of colleges that we have in Texas. And then finally, Ventura Community College District in California joined us. We're very pleased to have them. They're down kind of Southern California way, and they joined a number of California community colleges. So welcome to all of you, and I hope some of you are online today, but this, of course, is being recorded for those who have other activities. Just a couple of announcements. These were some highlights over the last couple of weeks. Our friends, our OER friends in New York, CUNY, the City University of New York, and SUNY, the State University of New York, received $8 million in state funding for OER. And of course, these systems are huge, and they include the community colleges, and so we're just so pleased to hear that. New York State is really supporting Open Education. Earlier this week, the Open Access Week theme for 2017 was announced. I think many of our members have librarians who are very active on our list and within our consortium, and they really participate in Open Access Week, and we support it fully as well. And that's usually in October. It is in October this year, and the new theme is Open in Order 2. How many folks out there participate in Open Access Week? Just out of curiosity. You could put that in the chat window, and if you've got activities planned. Another big success for one of our community members, Open Oregon. Open Oregon is the statewide effort in Oregon. They've presented with us many times. Amy Hofer announced that they had hit 300 adoptions in the state. I think it was last week, and you can see more about that at the link there, openorgan.org resources, but these are individual adoptions by faculty at their colleges, and they also specify what the open resource they're using. So it's a really, not only a very helpful site for those of you who might be looking for OER, but it's also a real success story. And finally, Open Education Week. I know a lot of our members participated in that. It was the last week of March, and just a quick report on that. We had 3,600 visitors from 136 countries. There were 156 events that were locally or online listed and that folks sent to us and were put on the calendar. We know that there were other events going on, but they didn't quite make it onto the calendar. Not everyone sends us their events, but that Open Education Week site stays up all year. So, you know, feel free to go up there. There's lots of wonderful resources, not only webinars, but there were projects that were submitted as well. And finally, I just wanted to let you know we are having an exciting webinar. Aren't they all exciting on May 10th? About setting OER. So about the OER selection process. One topic that we haven't talked about before is how the state culturally includes the content for how to find it and then adapt it if needed to be culturally inclusive. And Bunkford Hill Community College has been a leader in this area, and we have Lori Catalozzi, who's the Dean of Humanities and Learning Community, who's going to be hosting at that webinar on May 10th. We also, of course, have the very important accessibility and licensing issues which we will have Paula Mission-Neweth, and I'm probably torturing her name. She's an instructional designer at Salt Lake Community College who will be sharing and our own Quill Pierce, our president of CCCOER. We'll be talking about open licensing and how that process is best implemented at your institution. And now I'm going to turn it over to Quill. Thank you so much, Una. And are you going to give me the screen? Oh, yes. Thank you, Quill, for... Okay, everybody, and hopefully you're looking at a slide that says discussion from OER to open. And I want to first thank Paige very much for agreeing to run the slide. Okay, so let's just give a couple of things here. I just want to make sure that everybody can see I'm getting some feedback. Is anybody else getting feedback? Okay. So we're using GoToMeeting today, which is different. Make sure that you find the chat button because that's where most of the conversation is going to happen. If you happen to be on with the phone, please make sure that your phone is muted. Microphones default to muted, but your phone doesn't. And so when somebody else is speaking, it's just a good idea to mute yourself because otherwise we get feedback. Okay, and can everybody hear me now? Is the theme better, Quill? I muted all of our... I'm sorry, I muted all of our attendees for now until we get to an open time. Perfect. Okay, so just to give a sense of what we're going to be doing today, I will kind of go through the article. I've gone through the article and I'll pose some specific questions. Please use the chat to respond if you would like to. I get that mark. And then we'll turn the mics back on. The idea is just to eliminate extra feedback because this service does allow that. So if you'll just take a break, count two alligators between each speaker just to give people time to finish their talk. And then Paige has been kind enough to agree to take live notes as we're doing this. So we're looking at the live slide show right now. This is an experiment. We're going to see how it works for us. So I think it's really important when we're talking about open education to note that it means different things for different people and in different contexts. I know that I use the idea of open education differently when I'm talking about, for example, grant work versus the work we do with our classes that aren't a part of a grant. So I use terms this way. So I say open education to mean the entire field, everything we study, it's kind of like instructional design as a field. So we're going to talk about that with open education. Today we're going to be curious about what we mean by OER. So when we talk about the resources with OER, we really are talking about the full five-hour definition because open pedagogy kind of depends on that five-hour definition in terms of the ability to reuse work. And then open education practices is a term that I'm becoming more and more familiar with, which is teaching effectively with OER and then we're going to come up with a definition ourselves of open pedagogy as we work through the article today. Is there any other terminology or any clarifications on this terminology that people want to add? I'm going to take this quiet in the chat window to mean yes. So let's start with this first quote, and I'm not going to read it to you because you can read it to yourself. But this is at the start of Derosa and Robeson's article and I really love this idea of the learning materials responding to the learner to think in terms of that rather than the learner's responsibility to respond to materials, the materials should also, there should be a conversation and the materials really shouldn't be static. I love that idea. So working with that concept, thinking in terms of how we're talking about the student's relationship to material and the material's relationship to the student and how they should respond to each other. I'm curious to know, because I work with faculty so often, how does the instructor's relationship to the material change if we're changing that relationship between students and materials? So how does it have to change the way instructors think about resources? Preston, would you like to share more about what you mean by keeps them current? Sure. I think when you're talking about the relationship between students and OER materials, I think it allows you to really take an applied approach to teaching and learning, and instead of relying on what may be outdated information, regardless of the topic, even courses like history and philosophy, which are oftentimes looking back at historical documents and data, applying concepts from those courses to current issues and situations is a very important way to reinforce learning, and I think this is a good way to keep folks current by making sure that you are taking content that is updated regularly, content that is newly released and made available, and incorporating that into teaching and learning. Preston, you used a phrase in there, and I didn't catch the whole thing. I was trying to write it down, and I didn't catch it all. You said applied something, and can you say that again? Because I really liked it, and I want to write it down. I don't exactly remember exactly what I said. I apologize for that. But I know from my own teaching experience, I really try to sort of translate concepts from historical perspectives into modern situations by using an applied approach where you can take material and ideas and concepts and relate them to current issues or problems so that you're focusing not only on learning what particular material may be, but how to use that to solve current or future problems. And it's something that involves students, and you can really use that for students to interact with one another, to have a more dynamic relationship with the faculty member. I hope the recording caught the actual phrase that you found a value because sometimes my mouth works faster than my brain, and I can't recall exactly what I stated. No, that's perfect. Paige actually caught it. The slides were updating, so I've changed the view of our slides so we can see the summary as Paige is typing, and hopefully that's okay with everybody. So I like how you're saying that. The really big concept that you're getting there is applying the materials to problem solving, which you're calling an applied approach, and I like that. What are some other things? For anybody else, does it change? Yeah, so, Ryar, I really like your concept there about co-creation of knowledge and understanding. So how does that co-creation work for folks who've worked with it? Suzanne, thank you. Yeah, the role of a guide. So what does that mean for us in terms of how we think about creating courses or curating materials together for courses if we're more of a guide rather than a sage? Yeah, I like that point of students being more engaged and also understanding the expectations of a discipline and getting to practice that discipline as a part of it. Okay, yeah. So hold that thought on creating courses that bring students into the process of academics because we are going to talk some more about that. So many comments at once. Alexandra, I really like that concept of being able to ask the students to surface their thinking in writing. That's perfect, Paige. Feel free to copy and paste where you can. So Ryar hits on something that is really important here is that there is a power shift in the dynamic that's happening in some of these classes where the faculty member is taking a little bit of a leap of faith and giving up some control over the material and over the way students consume and interact with the material. And I'm curious to know how others have managed that. Okay. So this is a great point that folks are making about giving up some of the power in it and it being a good thing. It can also be, I don't know, for me it feels very, it feels good, but it also feels kind of scary. So one of the things that happens, let's move on to talking about assignments a little bit just to fill in our time and we can come back to this concept because I really like it. But in Derosa and Robinson's article, they talk about some samples of Open Pedagogy. They give kind of 4K studies of things that they have done or seen done. And we have some wonderful case studies amongst our own attendees here today so we can share more points. But I'm curious to know from kind of the group, let's talk a little bit about how, what you see working really well in these types of assignments and what you see as tension points. Oh, that's a great one that students, this is also a lot of freedom for the students. And I'm not sure, like somebody said to me one time, a teacher said to me one time about teaching a math class with open resources, that she spent half the quarter retraining the students how to think differently about math and then the rest of the quarter teaching math. And then they had to go back to their next class and read, learn how to take math classes again because she changed so much on them in one quarter. So it's interesting because if we're going to, oh, somebody's chiming in. So I guess my question would be, because some students get really excited about this and for some people it can be uncomfortable. One of the questions to focus on the tension points is how do we facilitate these kinds of courses and this kind of learning while still supporting the fact that our colleagues aren't going to do it the same way and they don't have to. I mean, I think if every class was as involved as some of the open pedagogy classes that I've taught, students would rebel about the amount of energy and work it takes. I'm going to try and jump in by the microphone. Does it work? Yep. Very exciting. Yeah, I think that the main thing that has helped with having students not freak out so much is to really scaffold it a lot more than other assignments. So give them a very clear list of this is what you're learning and here's the approach that we're going to use, which I didn't have to do before, but it seems necessary in this case. I'm really liking that point about communication technology tools and I think it's interesting. I saw this amazing group of presentations at OpenEd at the Global Conference from folks who were trying to do open pedagogy because of infrastructure issues at their institution with students who had little access to technology or web services. And it was really interesting to see the questions they ran into or the... For them, the things that didn't work were the things that I thought would be really easy, like students being able to communicate with teachers in multiple formats. So I'm curious to know how have folks worked with that in terms of teaching that, in terms of teaching technology and communication skills. Alexandra, I would love to see some of your assignments because some of those things you're asking for are really high-level work. So I'd love to hear what other open pedagogy folks are engaging in in terms of this is partially a way to help us define what we mean by open pedagogy because some people are purists that they're saying that if it's open pedagogy, everything the students are presenting and creating then adds back into the larger discourse and that is open pedagogy. And it's all openly licensed. Some are saying that maybe it's not all openly licensed. And sometimes it's not all or nothing. For example, I think I saw that quote in the chat from Harris. So I would love to know what other things are folks doing and calling open pedagogy and can we come up with a kind of sense of what an open pedagogy looks like? This is actually a question I've had too with the is open pedagogy the pedagogy of creating open things or the pedagogy of using open things? I mean either way would work but that's kind of where I get stuck because I don't want to force students to have to make have to share their work if they're not comfortable but I do want to show them where they can get work that is shareable and is usable. So really focusing on kind of information literacy like where do you find things that you can use thoroughly versus where are you kind of plagiarizing and not realizing it? Suzanne, I think you hit the essence of the question for me in terms of sometimes in my classes using open things appropriately and even blending open things with less open things to create new knowledge and then sharing that. So I feel like open pedagogy should have a creative element to it in the terms of what comes out of it should be something we can share forward but I agree with you I always give my students an opt out because I don't think everybody should have to share because I want them to understand they have their own copyright and I want them that's part of my hidden outcomes and some of my assessments. So I'll volunteer one that I do I teach a college success class and my students do something I call create an ad but basically they're making the intro material for core concepts in the class. So if one of our core concepts is not procrastinating we're learning about how not to procrastinate or think about procrastinating. I have students who then design for me something that's supposed to catch attention for the next group of students. So instead of my presentation we start with the students work and I've gotten some great things. I had one student draw a really really wonderful kind of storyboard for me showing somebody vanquishing procrastination in their life and it works really well so that then the student perspective lives in my class but she volunteered to let me share that work and put an open license on it I did not demand it. Dan that's a great point that students working in a group should choose their license. How do you facilitate that conversation? So I've had this tension point before I'm always happy to teach students about licensing and I feel like it's a valuable use of their class time but I have had the tension point of this class is about chemistry. We don't teach licensing and chemistry although I would argue that they're going to need intellectual property language at some point in their careers. Perfect. Yeah. So how do you cover that in your class? It looks like Dan's using a video but you're making the perennial point about the word pedagogy and I think it's just that thing where it took over the way we talk about teaching and learning. Yeah I was right that's a great point on the Year of Open Google Hangout. I didn't make it but I saw some of the amazing things that came out of it and I really like there was another term where instead of calling it pedagogy or androgogy they called it, I forget which, but it's the definition when I looked it up because I hadn't seen the word before was learners choosing their own path through a concept which I thought was a really neat idea. There it is. Karen put it in there. Self-directed learning. Let's talk about teaching and learning. Yes. If you're not following by the way the Year of Open this month is Open Pedagogy Month and there's some great stuff there and yes I'm using that word but it's the one that's taken over our conversation. Thanks Una. Okay I'm noting our time so I'm going to move us to another question here but we can come back to this one. That's a good point. Yes for folks out there I would also love an assignment to teach about licensing something simple. I have some slides that I use that I will happily share with people. I would go get them and post them in the chat right now but if I do you have to look at my messy email. We'll wait. So we've already seen some of the challenges but here's some that I have focused on so think about challenges or tension points in doing this kind of work and for me this one's really really close to my heart because I teach developmental ed but I think readiness in developmental education is a space where we really could be benefiting from this type of work and we do in my class but I think it's also something where when we talk about scaffolding it's a different kind of scaffolding in terms of building confidence. So what kind of readiness things have you run up against? Because I don't think it's just a developmental ed. I think there's a lot of readiness in education in general we have to address when we're asking students to take in the larger conversation of their discipline. This is one of the major things that Derosa and Robinson talk about in working in public lessons and challenges on the ground on page 121. Anybody had any experience and they address it as a we should change the nature of the web? So the assignments themselves are designed to build confidence that's a good point. Preston this question actually reminds me of your talk about the ethics of open and open meeting all students where they are because this is where I sometimes worry that the assignments outstrip the ambition of the assignment can outstrip the students' knowledge at the beginning of a course. Thank you, Quill. Community colleges in particular have such a wide variety of students and we have adult and returning students. We sometimes have senior citizens. We have high school dual enrollment students and every population in between and it's very difficult to try to meet all of those students where they are and try to provide some of the readiness or development or information literacy and all of those other types of things while also teaching on the specific subject matter of the course. And so these are all things that I think a lot of faculty wrestle with particularly in community colleges and meeting students where they are is not always easy but I think when you are talking about open pedagogy and then the design of assignments that allow students to benefit from interactions with one another, they can help each other along because if a faculty member has 30 students and a class, it's really hard to get everybody to the same playing field without having some of those other folks chipping in and creating this kind of collaborative learning environment. Okay. So in the interest of thought, I don't know that we have clear answers to this yet but I think that we have to just notice this. Yeah, I hear a good point there about helping students to recognize what they already know. And I think a big part of that is honoring that what they have experienced is something they know. I think a lot of students think that they're or have experience in other spaces in their lives that they don't know enough about anything to call themselves an expert. And we're trying to tell them you're an expert in something that nobody else is an expert in because you're building this knowledge and skill set. Yep, also in what they think they know and then how to support what that is or how to support their experiences in an open space. It's a fascinating space. So I do think that there needs to be some transparency in the process. I found it fascinating to think about that concept of selling the web less as a place for finished products and more of a space for developing knowledge which is really fascinating because I think we tend to consume the web that way but we don't tend to publish to it that way. And I'm speaking in terms of the academic disciplines in general. So that call to be less complete on the web less polished really speaks to me because it's hard for me to release things that I don't feel done with yet. Which is why it's always hard for me to release things in general. I'm going to skip forward in the interest of time so this is more of that same question though. So what are the risks that we face as instructors when we treat our own work as works in progress instead of finished and completed work? And I just admitted it is so hard for me to publish something that I don't feel is correct. Or not correct, correct the wrong word. That I don't feel is perfect. I have this sense of people will judge me if my work is not the best it possibly can be before I can release it and judge me negatively so then I don't ever want to release things. How many other people have had that feeling first of all? Yeah, it feels a lot safer to me to share things in a quiet space. And I often run into this situation with faculty who developed great and amazing things and they won't share them with people, other people because they're worried about judgment, but they will happily hand them to students forever because there's less risk in sharing with a group of students than there is in sharing with your own colleagues. And I think that's part of the culture we're trying to shift here. And Dan, I want to hear more about that. I felt like that before I said you're teaching third and fourth graders because I think I really think we need to find a way to feel like what we are releasing doesn't have to be perfect because the other part is when we're asking students to take that risk, we have to do that. And I think that's part of the culture we're trying to shift here. And Dan, I want to hear more about that. I want to demonstrate that we take risk, too, but I think our entire system is set up against that. Peer review is set up against that kind of space. So how do we do it? Actually, there was a great TED talk a while back about how this concept of open actually takes, and I teach science, so I keep going back to those examples, but takes us back to what science was supposed to be, which is we're all working together, we're all figuring it out. It's not like I have created an answer and here it is, which I think has become such an odd way to teach science from this tone of these are the answers, right? And so I really kind of use it as, no, this isn't finished. It may not be right in 10 years because that is what we're doing in science. I'm going to have to figure out how to save this chat because so many good things are coming through it. I like that. I need to find that TED talk because that's also, I think to an expert, that's what publishing in any field is supposed to be, but I think that we have, I know teaching information literacy five years ago, we were teaching students much more closely to, if you can find it in a journal, it is closer to fact than if you can't find it in a journal. And I think the point that you're making there is in the, in, depending on your discipline, that's less true. It's more like this is our current thinking in the space. True. The act of publishing is a part of an industry now. Maybe not considering the things we publish to the web. Which is different now. And we still use the word publish there rather than maybe iterate on the, on the web, which is one of the reasons why I love David Wiley's byline to his blog, which is iterating towards openness. I like that concept of constant change and constant growth. I'm going to ask another big question here. So I'm going to change our, change up our slides and this one is really about something that I don't know that open pedagogy has addressed yet, which is designing to scale. So if we determine that, that these types of assignments and class interactions are a valuable tool and really important in the scope of teaching and learning, how do we bring it to scale so that we're not recreating the same works over and over again, but also so that new teachers can embrace these ideas. I have no answers to this question. It just occurred to me yesterday that I have not seen this kind of lesson done to scale yet. Alexis, do you know of anybody? So Dan, I need to go to that website, but I can't because if I do, you'll have to go there with me. Alexis, do you have any samples of or experience with people who have taken a template kind of assignment and recreated it and for their own teaching? Definitely will contact you. Okay. So this might be a red herring of a question for right now, but it's one that I'm hoping that we can all start thinking about in our own practice as we develop these courses. Yeah, so that's great. That's a good point of sharing out your Google Drive. And that's another big thing here is that there has been a growing call even on our own listserv about repositories of open assessments. Yep, some kind of idea generator for open pet. I love that idea. Just even if it's walking around conferences saying this is one of the things I do. Can you clarify what you mean by it's difficult to do searching? Sure. So in this, I think kind of relates to both the examples of assignments and just kind of open in general. And this may just be my own personal opinion, but there's a lot of great places to go look, but it's almost a challenge of abundance. There's a lot of places to look, right? And so it becomes kind of hard to find. That is true. And that's one of the reasons why, actually, I'm going to make a plug for the webinars that Anna just mentioned. We've done a couple of webinars at CCC OER. And I've seen them in other places too, where people get a chance to present on the amazing thing they're doing in their class. And those always speak way more to me than going through kind of a more closed repository. Because I can hear from the teacher, like I have to hit on your biology class. Suzanne, I learned the coolest thing. Watching how you did that. And I thought, okay, when I do book creation, this is what I want to do. And so I've taken some of your lessons learned. So specific examples and template type materials would be important. Yeah. And then I also think that it's really important. I think, you know, we don't have to do all things at once in every one of our classes. So I also think that there needs to be a simple way to think about this and then bigger, more ambitious ways to think about it. Because some people are going to want to recreate, you know, create their own text materials and have the students do most of their writing. And then other people are going to want simpler, like I just want ancillaries. I just need them to help me make study guides. That's all I want my students doing. And that's not at all. That's actually quite a robust thing to do, but it's not as big as we're going to recreate the textbook. So I have a couple of more questions. And I think that they're more aspirational and we're coming up on the hour. So I'm just going to bring them up and then I want to turn. So I'm going to go through the next few slides fairly quickly. And then I'm going to turn it over to you folks to raise questions that may have come up for you. This one wasn't in the article, but it's important to me, which is we keep talking about the virtues of this kind of teaching. And I think from the instructor's perspective and from the institutional perspective, this kind of teaching and learning is really valuable. There is exactly one that I know of study that, and it's not even published yet, that examines the value of open assessment on student teaching and learning. So I would love to know if people are doing other things or if there's other things we can look for. Thanks Paige for getting us through the notes that we've done so far. That's great. And then the other part is, is there a process we can use for designing open assessments? Okay, so don't forget the year of open. And then I'd want to open this up to hear what other people are thinking about. And I realized that we're down to two minutes. So what other comments might folks want to make before we close for today? This is Buddy and he is from Montgomery College. I'll just say a few words. I'll be quick, unlike me. I think a lot of us in higher ed are still struggling with open education resources. A lot of our faculty are not on board. And this is a very valuable discussion we're having today. But I think if it's not really yet formed well, what open pedagogy is, the faculty who are just trying to come to grips with what OERs are, they may be hesitant to get into this. They may think, oh my God, this is a real big world, a universe of things that I must subscribe to. So it's great. But I think right now for many of us, the priority is on open education resources to try to bring in these faculty who need encouragement to get on this. And this will develop, of course, and it should. But it's just so many of us are fighting the OER battle. That's the primary one, at least for me right now. Thank you. This is Alexis. I'd love to agree with that and also sort of disagree. So I've worked with a lot of faculty at this point. And I would say you're probably right that 75% of people out there that are just jumping into the world of OER are like, okay, give me some materials to start with. I need to focus on the text aspect. But then I think there's another maybe quarter or so of the population that open pedagogy is what actually lights the fire and actually brings them into the conversation in a way that just talking about open textbooks doesn't. So it's really hard to strike the right balance, but there's so many exciting things about the world of OER generally that it's nice to kind of mention all the possibilities to see where people's eyes light up. Preston, I want to give you a little bit of time if you have it to talk about why open ped doesn't require the 5Rs. Okay. So this is something that I've been wrestling with a little bit because I'm very much a proponent of open licensing. But at the same time, I certainly recognize that there are ways to use materials and resources that may not be openly licensed, but effectively incorporate them into open pedagogy in a way where folks are able to use material and allow that to benefit particular assignments or works that they're creating to reinforce learning in creative ways. There are a lot of materials that we can access. And when I think about what students, particularly like the millennial and younger students that we see, the things that are important to them really aren't necessarily about retaining material so much as being able to access it, refer to it, and then use it to inform things that they're able to create. And those are things that I think we need to not lose sight of because there's tendency to sometimes devalue things if they don't have a particular license attached to them. And I think that really can reduce the amount of valuable materials and resources out there at our disposal and those of our students. Yeah, J-PACs are J-PACs and they're the size of the art, but most graphic designers will use a vector graphic, which would be like a P and G file so that you could use sizes without losing. Yeah, I think so too, but that's okay. All right, I'll see what I can do. Thanks. Are you there, Quill? I think somebody was on their phone. I was talking. Yeah, I'm here. Sorry. I muted myself. I'm sorry. So yes, and I think if I follow your point, I think that you're, I always, every time I think about this licensing issue, as I worry that we're, there's the thing that you do in production. And then there's the thing you do for learning in the classroom. And I do worry that we limit ourselves. For example, you know, the library, and I really like to use library resources, but I also think there's something to teaching students about incorporating sources that doesn't mean that you can't ethically cite them, but you're not editing the original source because it's not licensed so that you can. So I run that tension too, and I worry about it. Because I do think we need to teach students that copyrighted materials have as much to have value and that they can be used in ethical and appropriate ways. Right, and there are openly, you know, there's open access material that may be copyrighted or may have a more restrictive license that folks can use and sort of create a response to something as an assignment that then, you know, is built on this idea of openness, but is utilizing materials that are a combination of openly licensed and openly accessible, but not necessarily openly licensed materials. And I think that if we try to limit ourselves to an ideal, we can end up having some unintended consequences. And that's the thing that I wrestle with on a personal level, wanting to really support and encourage open licensing, but also understanding and appreciating the things that people are making available for use, oftentimes for free, but are retaining copyright for creative or other reasons that are valid in their case. And it doesn't mean that the material is less worthy of our incorporating it into our teaching strategies. Yeah, that tension that you're talking about and attention might be the wrong word, but that space we need to build for learning off of resources just is a really important one in terms of also students being responsible citizens and using copyrighted and not copyrighted and openly licensed and public domain and every other kind of information resource that they'll run into in their lives as citizens of the web and citizens of our communities. So I think that it's really important. And I think that's why I, if I had my way at least once a year, students would run into some kind of conversation about intellectual property and what it means in their lives because that's part of what we're trying to do as in teaching them. And I think that that would be a... And I think it would be valuable for us to continue to have those conversations. So I have now just passed our time here. These slides for today's conversation are openly licensed, of course, here by the way are applications for the slide deck that we used and for the article that we talked about. My own questions are openly licensed and I will put an open license on this and I'll share it via the list. We are recording this conversation and we'll make it available to folks. And I think we should have more conversations. I really, really like the idea of doing discussions and if it worked for people, I think we should continue to do them on a variety of topics. But I... Oh, and yes, please don't forget that we will be doing our May 10th webinar. I am so excited to hear our speakers on the 10th, not including myself, although I'm excited about being able to talk to you about vetting licenses and teaching people how to do that. So I am going to quit talking and let people make any other closing comments that you would like to ask. Well, thank you all for coming today. It was great to have your voice...