 Hello everyone and welcome back to our blog from the Karma Sutra to 2020 where we answer your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So as always we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Bahel. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the clinical perspective to the advice that the Karma Sutra has to give. Welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome everyone to our blog this week. With Anvita today I've decided to pick two questions to deal with. They're both on the same subject, they're both about phone sex, but interestingly they come from very different people who are in very different situations and hence they have a very different perspective. And I just thought it'd be interesting to juxtapose the two questions at the same place because it'll give everybody a chance to see how it resonates with them. So the first question is from a young man and it says, my partner and I are in a long distance relationship for more than a year now. The emotional connect is there, everything is on point between us except the physical pleasure part. As you know phone sex can become very boring after a while. Can you suggest a different way by which we can make love in a long distance relationship? That's question number one. Question number two comes from a young girl. She says, I'm a 30 plus girl from a very conservative family. I was supposed to be married in April but with the coronavirus everything has been postponed and nobody has any idea when it will happen now. My fiance and I stay in different countries so we can't even meet and now he wants phone sex all the time. I'm still a virgin and I am not getting any such desires and I don't even have the privacy at my home to do so. And because of this we are getting into fights on silly stupid things. Please help me. As I said, two very different perspectives, two very different situations. But I think what really struck home with me was that you know all our lives, you as a psychosexual therapist, me talking about the Kamasutra, we've always focused on trying to explain to people how to open up the mind and the body in order to accept your own sexuality in order to accept your lover with an open heart. Suddenly we find that the situation has changed and now we have to start telling people that they have to open up their vocabulary because phone sex is all about what you say. So it's all about how you're talking to each other. And that's another level of breaking inhibitions, right? Because if we think about it, especially in the South Asian context, you know, in the Indian context where, you know, when morally and legally and societally when sex is allowed, it's something that happens naturally. It's something that people have to do as a duty. But here there's a little bit of action because you have to verbalize and there is so much inhibitions. Like, and we've spoken about this in previous videos, we never even say the word vagina and penis, you know, and you know, so we never even use that vocabulary in our households. Like we will say private parts, this part, how do you have phone sex by saying you're touching my private parts? Like, so yeah, it's breaking a whole level of inhibitions to engage So, you know, like, like you just said, in this case, you know, this young girl, she was supposed to be married, as you mentioned earlier. She's, she's still a virgin. As she says, she's 30 plus. She's from a conservative family. And if she'd been married, like she was supposed to be, it would have been fine for her to feel this hesitant and kind of not wanting to do anything. And it would have been good for her to be the shy bride who would have been slowly brought into this new life of hers. Now, suddenly she has to go into it. And the fact that she won't suddenly go into it is wrong for her. I know we've had some people commenting on how we speak from a very gendered perspectives at times with women. But at the same time, what I would want to say is that, you know, those are the expectations for women in South Asia. They need to be that shy bride who knows nothing about sex. And then the man will come and show our love making happen. And when not available, she now suddenly has to be the person who's engaging in phone sex and verbalizing. And I think it's really difficult for women to decide where they want to go with it. Like, is it OK for her to suddenly now verbalize sexual words and sexual desires and fantasies? Is that, is she going to be judged for that? You know, is she going to be judged as somebody who is like, how do you know these words? How do you know how can you have all these desires? So it's very confusing because is she going to be judged for it? Or is she going to be seen as a progressive woman who is in touch with her own sexuality? And that's a challenge. So I can understand her hesitance around it because it's very challenging where this will go. And also, you know, generally, I mean, with phone sex, of course, it can simply be audio, but most of the time it's a video thing. So she's already said she doesn't have the privacy at her place. But even more importantly, I know a lot of people, at least for a long time, are really shy about the whole thing. They will not even have sex with the lights on. And suddenly you're supposed to be doing this with a phone in your hand, with the lights full blaring on. You know, it's just like suddenly you have to be visualizing yourself and your partner and showing your parts of your body, which you would never have done. It's just, you know, the more I think about it from the perspective of somebody who's having to start this against her natural desires, it must be so difficult. Yeah. And you know, like we spoke about in the video with masturbation and the mirror, and we spoke about body image and self-esteem and everything. So if once again showing that this is not as natural or easy process to do it, you know, that there will be inefficience. And I think you're spot on when we say that for me, it's more about we have to engage with our own sexuality and our own sexual desires, right? Because how are we ready? Do we have a fantasy? Have we masturbated ever before? Do we know what we need to touch? Or do you as a person even know what parts of the body are you going to touch and they're going to arouse you? Like, what are you going to tell to your partner on when you're having sex? Like, what do you enjoy? So till you haven't really explored your own body or your own desires or your own sexuality, this is something really difficult. That's point. Yeah. Go ahead. And I was saying funnily enough that this whole idea of touching yourself and exploring yourself and so on and understanding your own sexuality brings me back to the first question where the young man says that they've been doing it for a while and it's become boring because you know what, even that actually it does get your point because the challenges of holding a phone in one hand if you're doing it as a video chat and doing other things is just really, really difficult. I have a friend who used to do this actually a while ago. It's the she and the guy that she was seeing were both based in Delhi. This is pre-corona time. So the challenges of not being able to meet were for different reasons. And she said that they used to indulge in a lot of phone sex and it was great for the first few times. And then it just got so boring and repetitive. And it got to a point where she would actually just start citing her comments because it got that boring. Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to initially say is that I think what's really interesting about the two questions is that for me, the way I see it is, I see that one couple is in sync with the way they are engaging with each other in sex, right? So both of them are okay with phone sex. They are, it's a medium they have chosen to engage with themselves and that's fine with them. Whereas for the other couple, the woman who's written in who's 30 years old, I feel that they're not in sync with how they want to engage sexually because her partner is somebody who understands his desires. He has desires, he has the language, he has the vocabulary. He wants to engage with phone sex whereas she is still figuring out where she is in the sexuality spectrum. So for me, it's about negotiating for the other couple. I think it is for them to negotiate what's the medium? What's the middle ground that they will meet at that both needs are met? For the first couple who are in sync and like the friend you're talking about, for I think once again going back to your own sexual desires, I think it's playing with fantasies. It's thinking about fantasies, it's playing with fantasies because this is the opportunity where the sky is the limit. You don't, it actually doesn't need to happen. It doesn't need to be practical. It doesn't need to be plausible. They are fantasies at the end of the day. So it's really not about the act of phone sex but it's actually thinking about our own sexualities and thinking what fantasies arouse me, what fantasies do I like, what fantasies do I enjoy and then sharing it with your partner. And you can really make it exciting by sharing with them what the fantasy is and in fact you can send a teaser throughout the day to make a build up, right, in some ways and there could be so much playfulness around it. So I think that it can be very exciting. You can make it very exciting because there could be so much playfulness. It's bringing in the playfulness with sex. I think that's a brilliant, brilliant word to use, the playfulness, the joyousness. So I think what I would like to say what the Kamasutra has always said is that you make the whole experience joyous and playful. And I think a lot of times people feel that if they're in a long distance relationship and they want to go into a sexual, long distance sexual relationship, they have to go in hot and heavy and sort of this whole idea of sort of body parts being put on display and being touched and being talked about and so on. Sometimes it's quite nice to actually pull back. When we say that if you're sitting next to each other, don't grab your partner. Just give the lightest touch, take your fingertip or maybe just the nail of your finger and run it along the arm of your partner, just that lightly because the lighter the touch or if you're going to kiss the person, make it just the lightest peck on the lips and then draw back because that's what, you know, it's more arousing. It sort of, it leaves you wanting more. It's more tentative. And maybe that's the way to go. So let's say for both of them, for the first one to make it more exciting and for the second one to maybe ease her into it, maybe that's the way to go. Like you just said, make it more playful. So like in the Kamatsutra there was this whole idea of how each position was indicated by a piece of jewelry. So if you had a jingling girdle that you wore on your upper waist, it meant that the woman was going to be on top. And a lot of times what they would do is they would send these pieces of jewelry to each other as in the ancient times as a gift. So it was almost like, you know, you've got the mind going. It was like to bring back the memory of what you did the last time and maybe what you do the next time. So there was this hugely erotic idea but flirting with it ever so gently, ever so playfully. And maybe that's the way to go. So like you were saying, send messages throughout the day but maybe send more delicate, slightly less hot and heavy messages to each other. Maybe suggesting something like that. Yeah, so I actually love this idea of symbolism, you know, because I get really worried whenever people talk about, like you would talk about video sex and phone sex, like I get really worried. And especially when I work with young people and I just feel like sexting, sexual images on the phone, sexual videos on the phone, I just feel, I worry about them. I feel like they're on the internet. They're present. There's no way of, you know, preventing it and everything. And I know many people do it. And obviously I hope they really trust their partners with that material and they send it from that perspective. But I am always left worried about these things. And that's me personally because I know people engage. But I am left worried about them. So I really tell people, be 150% sure when you do this and feel 150% comfortable doing it because if there are any consequences you will have to face them. So, you know, if you are going to engage with it then be ready that they could be consequences and you will have to deal with those consequences. And if you're not happy to deal with those consequences then please do not, you know, engage in sexual material, sending it over the phone in messages because it obviously has the potential of being problematic. So I actually love this idea of symbolism because you can still send a similar message without actually sending images. Like there could be, you could have had a conversation about a fantasy, about a desire, you know, say you would have a fantasy about having sex in the plane and you send an image of a plane. Now, that for me is still very exciting without really, you know. Probably more exciting because it leaves more for you to think about. Because actually, like you said earlier, you know, that, you know, the physical body can only do so much. There is only so much you can do with your body but with the head, with the fantasy, the sky's the limit. You can do anything. Exactly. And you know, and so you can have fantasies, you can send messages, you can send teasers, you can be playful and all of that. And I also think that's something comfortable when somebody is introducing themselves like are getting introduced to their own sexuality. It's a new phase of life they are starting. So these gentler touches or these gentle things feel more welcoming to them. But you know, and similarly, like we always say that young people or women or men who've not engaged in pornography ever, watching porn actually can be traumatic for people because it's so in your face, you know. So I think like these gentler ways of introducing it, even for this young girl could be so enjoyable because one of the things we need to make sure for her is that she shouldn't feel traumatized by sex each time. You know, in the future, it should be something that she remembers and she thinks, oh, that was really pleasurable. I got excited by that, that was fun. It shouldn't be something that she should remember it as. It was uncomfortable, I hated it, it made me feel awful. I felt something that I didn't want to feel like she shouldn't feel like that. So I really think that, you know, she needs to only engage in this if she wants to do it. Because ultimately, if she's not in sync, if she does it under coercion or she says, oh, I want to do it for my partner, you know, he's asking for it, it will impact your relationship. So only do it when you're ready to do it and you want to do it. But like you said, the sad thing is that, you know, we can say to her that don't do it if you don't want to, but then it's getting him all riled up and the repercussions are not very nice from what she says and they're getting into fights over these sort of things. So it's always difficult to get both sides to understand something, isn't it? It's just like we can say to her, okay, you know, take charge of this if you don't like it, if this makes you feel resentful, it'll impact your sexual desires for the rest of your life, but difficult to explain to the partner. So I think from a personal point of view, I was going to start with one piece of advice for both of them, actually. For the first question, which comes from somebody who has been used to doing it, but now it's become a little bit more boring, for the second person who is not at all used to doing it and is scary. What Anmita says is that videos are extremely awkward and difficult to use and not very safe in the long run. As far as I'm concerned, adding to that, it's also really, really more challenging to have phone sex on a video call because you're also having to manage the phone in one hand, the bright lights and all the rest of it. So I think the first thing I'd like you to do is turn on to an audio call instead. And that will give you the chance to visualize things a little bit better. It'll take away the challenge of holding the phone so it'll be one less thing to worry about. And I think it might help to open up your inhibitions a little bit. What do you say, Anmita? Yeah, I definitely think engaging with the fantasy and your imagination. And I have said this many times on our blog that sexual desire and arousal is about the mind, body and the feelings and things. And you can't limit yourself to the more you fantasize, the more all three parts are engaging with it because your thoughts are engaging with it, your feelings are engaging with it and your body is engaging with it. And once again, both people can be involved because each person might fantasize it differently, right? But you're talking about it, so both people can be engaged. So I think that is definitely important. Yeah, so I think that's the main thing is that for me is to express fantasies and for both of people to engage with them. And the other thing is, of course, that it means that you need less privacy for that. It's slightly easier to find a space to have a phone conversation rather than having a video conversation where everything else is being done at the same time. Yeah, yeah, of course it is. And it can be like people don't need to know what the other person's saying, you don't need to have everything under lock and key. But I think what I just wanted to go back to your point earlier that you were making about, how do you negotiate between a couple because one person is saying something and the other person is saying something is at a different place. I think those are the beautiful moments in a new relationship that you can really work on because if they're able to communicate today and she can tell him how uncomfortable she feels with this or what her inhibitions or problems are, and he can listen to her and actually help her through them or relieve some of her anxiety around it or relieve some of the things, suddenly we have two people coming closer. We have more respect, we have more communication, we have more trust, we have more love. And all these things will build on the love. And then the chemistry of the desire will come naturally with it. So I actually think this negotiation is really important because this is the building block and then it will make the sexual relationship that much more comfortable because she will suddenly feel comfortable in him, she would trust him more, she would feel like he understood what she was going through. And similarly for her, he can express his desire and she can understand him better. So I actually think it will build the warmth and the love which will make sex even better. So I think over here what we'd like to say is that it's not always easy because one person really wants it, obviously their hormones are raging, the other person doesn't want it, they're feeling more resentful and so on. And it's a great time to communicate with each other but communicate not from a point of saying, oh my God, I'm feeling really upset. This is not okay for me. Actually communicate from a point of understanding. So saying, okay, look, I know you want this, I know that eventually I will feel that attracted to you and I will want it too. So right now, I can't just do this, help me to understand how I can get to this point, help me with that vocabulary. And I think that is what Anvita is saying that the communication is really, really important. It's what will make your ongoing relationship stronger but you have to understand that communication is about understanding both sides of the conversation, not just yours. So I might be feeling terribly resentful and angry and upset and panic-stricken about something but I have to also understand how you're feeling and then find a meeting point. Yeah, one of the ideas Seema remember we discussed is that it could also mean that she is able to listen or be part of her partner's fantasy and he masturbates on the other end but she doesn't, you know, because she's not ready. So it's about meeting that also that I will be the recipient of your fantasy but maybe I don't have a fantasy to give back. Maybe my fantasies will come after listening to your fantasies that I will start having fantasy. So it is about giving each other space to grow into a sexual relationship as well, right? Because she's not ready for a sexual relationship, you are. So can you give her some space to grow in and can she receive the sexual relationship? That was another thing we had said. And again, going back to both the first question about how it's become boring and the second one about not having found the desires. Another thing that we had discussed earlier was how your sexuality is your own. So you have to own it, which means that you have to figure out for yourself where, what part of your body feels excited by touch? What part of your body feels excited by sight? And so on. So, you know, we've always said, like Bakamsutra says that every single day your erogenous zones move with the shifting of the moon. Which means that every day a different part of your body might be feeling more excited or if not every day, maybe every month, your erogenous zone sort of becomes more powerful in one part of your body. Explore your own body, touch yourself, figure out what it is that is making you excited in yourself and then add that to the fantasy that you're sharing over the phone, even if it's just in your own mind. Yeah, and it's actually, I'm thinking, what a great way of teaching each other what excites you. You know, we sometimes when it's, we're in person with each other, we are unable to communicate. It just happens, it's done. There's never really mentioned saying, so if the other person is cued on, if the other person's not cued on, they completely miss where you got excited and where you ate it, right? But here, while we are verbalizing it, you're actually helping the other person learn what excites you. And you're learning from the other person what excites them. So I think it's a great teaching moment for finally when you do meet in person. And added to that is I was thinking, you know, what you just said about the moons and what it is, once you start learning patterns about each other, that's your symbolism right there. So if it's a full moon, and you know, there's full moon and your one part of your body's connected, send that as a symbolism and suddenly there's a teaser right there and there's a tease right there. Yeah, absolutely. So they say that on the full moon, all of your sexuality is concentrated in your head. And typically what they would have said in the Kamsutra is that this is the day that you actually stimulate the hair, you massage the head and so on. But I would imagine that if you're doing this over the phone, you're fantasizing, then you actually discussed maybe how you start the kissing from the head and go down the body and so on. There is a gentler way of approaching phone sex or approaching this vocabulary. I don't think that panting, going hot and heavy, wanting to see various parts of the body which you yourself are not used to seeing and maybe don't even find terribly attractive in your own self. You definitely don't want to be out there displaying it to your partner or displaying it under bright light. Yeah, and as you said earlier, of course it's gonna get boring if that's all that you wanna do. Show the same things again and again. Of course it's gonna get boring. So where's the playfulness? Where is the emotion? Where are the feelings? And that's what we always find problematic, right? Many times with the physicality of sex, right? Like it becomes all about the body but it's about engaging the feelings and the thoughts and the fantasies. So right there is the answer in some ways. So I guess at the end of this conversation what we would like you to take away from this is that phone sex, if you're going to indulge in it, make it for most of the time an audio call rather than a video call. Both for sake of cyber safety as well as for your arousal because there are less challenges involved with holding the phone in one hand and it's generally more rousing because you give your fantasies and your brain more time to think about it. The second thing is use playfulness, use messages, use little analogies and ideas. You know, again in ancient times there was this whole idea of sending font to each other. Different types of font with different fillings indicated a different mood or a different thing that you wanted to do. So did you know for instance that if you put cinnamon into your font it was a message for all your dinner guests to leave so that you could be with your beloved? Oh really? Yeah, but you know, like figure out symbolism between you. So if you send some roses to your partner what would that mean? So it suddenly gets them excited. Absolutely, send a photo of it. You know, this whole idea that can't leave another word for can't leave the God of love and desire is memory. Your memory can arouse you far more. Your memory of something, anything. So if you've had a really fabulous moment send a photo of that object rather than of your body because it will bring back the memory and it'll bring it back in a better way. So that's the second thing, try messaging. Try to go lighter as opposed to heavier. And finally, use words to negotiate and communicate. And when you're communicating try and make sure that the communication comes from both sides. Accept that there are feelings on both sides and they're both equally valid. So not just the panic that you're feeling but also the arousal that your partner might be feeling or whichever way it works for you. So negotiate that with an understanding on both perspectives. Have I covered everything under them? Yeah, and I think finally what we said is that this will work that when you connect more and more with your own sexuality and your own sexual pleasures because I think it's centered more with you. And so connect more and more, understand yourself more and more and I think it will make it more pleasurable. So I hope that this has answered the questions for both the young people who wrote to us as well as a lot of other people who are out there trying phone sex these days because of, well, the situation, the way that it is. And we really hope that it leads to a great deal more excitement and arousal and makes you happy. Yeah, and I think everybody is trying very hard to get the distance and relationships. So it is very challenging and we totally understand that it's very challenging. So if there are other challenges that you've been facing because of the pandemic or because of COVID, please do send in the questions and we will try and answer them as soon as possible. Absolutely, as always, please do like, comment and subscribe. Send your questions in at info.seema.anand, info.seema.anand at gmail.com, that's it. And if you want to get in touch with Anrita directly about a clinical question that you might have, please contact her on anritamadanbehel.com. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week.