 I loved your soil freedom. Sorry, you were saying? I was saying that I love class as soil story. Like, I like the way it came out, like that kind of fairy tale thing. You know, I had a really nice tone to it that I could see wanting to add to. Cool. So we can start in, right? That's kind of where I was going to head. This is, we're sort of the Marley calls have kind of ended. I think, Klaus, are you OK if we call this the Neo Book call? Sounds great. I will rename the channel and we can figure that out. So this is the Neo Book call for Monday, June 12, 2023. And Klaus, do you want to check in with what your current thoughts are and what, like, the email you forwarded to us about maybe a children's book and other stuff like that? Yeah. I mean, coming out of our conversation last Monday was this idea of using a parable or more of a story format to convey an emotional content there, create an emotional connection. So that's why I engaged my chat GPT to write a story. And then so I tested it. I'm traveling with a small COVID to say, it's a leadership group within the Sierra Club. It's the National Grassroots Network. And I just know what you guys think about it. And the response was amazing. They want to put it on their website. And then I got this note from this lady in Kansas who wants to put on a child's play with it and turn it into a play. And then you think about how powerful this could be. To now act out, play act the story of soil. Because we have been looking for some kind of mechanism that cuts through. And it's really hard to convey this technical story of what happens in the soil. And so to make this emotional, if that seems to be a potential pathway, I remember also when my son looked at one of my PowerPoints and there was one image in there that had a spoon full of soil. And then it pointed out that there are more microbes living in this spoon of soil than there are people on the planet. And that just floored them. I mean, I remember the, because this reaction was just like, wow, that's amazing, you know? So that's where this came from. And then, of course, when you crowd source ideas like this, I mean, you get stuff back that you just, I mean, I didn't think of turning this into a play. I just thought, where could this go? But I think this is a phenomenal idea. And what I would love to do, if we can pull that off, is connect them, connect this group, this church, with some resources that can help them to really knock this out of the ballpark. Cool. Hi, Patty. Thanks for joining. Hi, everyone. So I think just from the perspective of this project and what we're doing, it sort of doesn't matter what format the book is in or who the audience is or whatever, it just has to sort of look like a duck, talk like a duck, and it's like a neo duck. So that sounds great. I have next to no expertise writing children's books or plays, so we would need to find people or crowdsource some ability to do that. But if we seeded more than a skeleton, if we seeded sort of the strawman script and then had people come in and contribute to it and do stuff to it, that could be really interesting. We don't want the process to take too long, because this is supposed to be a quick first book. But if we started somewhere quickly, we might be able to get there. And then I'm aware that most children's books are half the work is the script and half the work is the artist. And those collaborations are hard to find, the good ones, where we're like the art really complements the writing and all of that. But they're pretty important. I don't know if they're essential to doing a children's book, certainly not for a play. Stacy. I would really like to bring in that kid that I was talking about last time, because I had given his artwork to Barry, and Barry created a story using ChatGPT. So this kid really wants to provide artwork. So I would love to be able to bring him in. And he's very interested in computers, super, super smart, and could really use an opportunity. Sounds great. We can give that a try and figure out how to do that. So Klaus, I want to make sure that I'm on the right version of the story of Soil and all of that. Can you share the link to the document in the Chat if you've got it handy? And then I've got a version of it open, but I'm not sure I'm on the right latest version. I just want to make sure that we're on the same page. Yeah, I haven't changed the location of it. So hopefully it's still the same. I mean, it should be the same. So I just expanded on there. I mean, after this idea came so much, I just went back to ChatGPT and write me a script. I had wrote a script, you know. And so what I'm thinking so, Jerry, is that this thing could be taken into much more elaborate audiences, right? I mean, you can start with a children's book, but I can see some abstract theater really emotionalizing this, making this a drama. I mean, you can take this into any direction. If this is the kind of communication that hits through, that penetrates, then we can advance this and start from a children's play, child's play perspective, but then carry this into a more abstract, more mature audience. Thank you. And that was a different link from the one I had. So I will go back and read this one better. And what you were saying just reminded me of something that would be worth looking at. Oh, I know. The understory and a couple other sort of related novels around this theme. And the understory is definitely not a kid's book. But it's definitely a dramatization of what happens around nature in really interesting ways. And I think it would be useful just to get a little bag of examples of near neighbor projects that are kind of in this realm. Because I'm sure that there are plays about Gaia and about the Earth and about things like that that are already out there in the world. We just don't know them yet. And if we each do a little bit of searching between now and next week, we'll have a tiny collection of benchmarks or role models or whatever you want to call that. And then it's possible to have chatGPT rewrite things at different grade levels or for different audiences. And so what you just said makes a lot of sense. The question then is how we go about editing the chunks and connecting them and so forth. Yeah, we could also. And this is where I posted the question, how do we protect this from a copyrights perspective and maintain some kind of ownership for OGM, for this body of work? So if we could strike an agreement with this church that wants to turn this into a child's play, apparently the lady that responded is doing this as sort of a volunteer. So she must have most likely has a background in what's in a Marian palace. So she most likely has a background in doing these sorts of things. And church is a perfect playground for poppy artists of all sort. So if we, and she offered that, I can turn this into a short play and give that back to you, basically. Wow. I mean, she was, well, how did she frame it? If you liked the basic idea of turning your story into a play, I would be happy to send you any adaptation I come up with for your approval or correction. So we could engage into a relationship where we can ping-pong this back and forth and advance it. And then it's still ours now. So it feels like the initial offer should have some kind of copyright, like Creative Commons licensing on it. Just putting something in the public domain, apparently, is the wrong thing to do, because that removes all kinds of copyright from the work. It basically says, this work is unprotected. That means anybody else picks it up, takes it, puts a copyright on it, and it's theirs. So you have to sort of defensible, you have to put some kind of either CC0, Pete Kaminsky likes Copy Heart, which I don't know much about, and I don't know, which is the best way to go about creating, protecting a collaborative work that could then have other variants. And if she was going to create a play out of it, then maybe she would register a copyright of this same sort for that variant of it, or would it be put back into the pool of this one? I don't know, but I have a feeling that if she rift on the beginning of it and created her own derivative work, that she would then have rights over that piece of it. But it would be nice if, at least from my perspective, it would be really interesting if we could agree on those ground rules with her going into this so that when she did the work and sent it back to us, we knew that it was usable in the open way that we're looking to use all the materials that we create. As opposed to, hey, I did a play, I rift on it, and I put it under my copyright, and thank you so much. So we have good and not so good, right? I mean, the good thing is that we have a product that seems to have legs. And we couldn't have anticipated this, right? I mean, when we started creating contractual ideas and structural ideas and so on, we couldn't anticipate where this would go. So now we know where it has a possibility to go, and now we're scrambling, trying to put a ball around it from a copyright licensing contractual perspective, and I know nothing about those things. So I mean, at least we have something intangible to work with. And I honestly, I mean, I was thinking about this yesterday, one of those times when you lay in bed and you can't sleep. And I mean, I can see this going into a more abstract form of play, where you can really emotionalize this. So this is in the spirit of brainstorming. Tell me if you like this idea. What if the play were somehow customizable to every school that decides to play it, both from the protagonists and the characters wind up being characters in the community of the school, but also the issues and so forth of the bioregion that the school is actually in, so that suddenly we bring in the bioregional things so that if the school was in the middle of Arizona and it's not a tropical rainforest, that the kinds of language and topics of it would be that way, would be of that nature. It might be a little too complicated, but if we're using ChatTPT to do some of this, we could actually leverage that for the customization in some sense. And what I'm trying to figure out is what would be a cool and viral way to go about doing this that improves our mission, that basically feeds our mission of propagating the ideas and getting kids to learn about this and be excited and getting adults to be equally excited. Does that sound interesting? Yeah, that doesn't have to be complicated, because once you have a basic script, then you insert the images based on your local kind of law and fauna. And so you can just change out the images and the costumes and just maintain the basic story. I love that idea. And I would imagine that I'm just thinking of populations or areas where, let's say, we have a school in the Midwest and let's say the folks who are receiving the idea of hosting the play, creating the play, adjusting it to suit and reflect their bioregion. And they can imagine that happening in a space where there might not be anyone who even knows where to begin looking for information that's especially accurate, that's up to date. So I wonder if there's a way to create some kind of, if we move forward in this way with this project, we create some kind of pathway or trail for people to follow if they're new to educating around biodiversity bioregion and a way for them to educate themselves fairly easily with quality and updated information is what's coming to mind for me. I love that. And then a part of what Neobook is supposed to do is that each of the nuggets leads you into the web, into the background behind the nuggets and resources and communities and all that good stuff. And I think those resources could also be tuned to grade level or age level so that a set of resources about what do you do about soil could be appropriate for a seven year olds and a separate set of resources would be appropriate for a 17 year olds or thereabouts. That would make a lot of sense to me. And how to do this, there's like a green evangelical movement. It's very interesting if we're working out with churches, not schools. And I know that in my head, I was just slipping towards schools instead of churches, but really the conversation started class because you were approached by a woman from a church. There is a green evangelical movement that's pretty interesting. It's evangelicals who really think that our job is to be stewards of the earth. Sound familiar? And if we could find something that fits that community well and transports itself well in that world, that would be pretty awesome. Yeah, this concept of stewardship, I think needs to be explored further. We briefly touched on that last Thursday and I spent a little bit more time on it. I mean, there really is a complete misconception about the biblical concept and the Genesis concept of what is stewardship. And when you start digging into the literature, the idea of exploiting the earth resources is not biblical at all. It is responsibly, sustainably engaging with the natural environment. It's just that it's taken on a different approach. But this would be a nice link with the church community. I mean, let's face it. The evangelical movement or the Christian movement in general is just completely lost in where they should engage and how they should engage to make this world to look more like what their understanding is of morality and living together and things like that. So this could really be sort of an escape valve of this is non-political. You don't have to talk about what this means to farmers and food and all this stuff. I mean, you're just really engaging in a very well basic, basic understanding linkage to the natural world and its most basic sense. And then from there, people can spin this out any which way they want. But we can insert this, and now that I'm thinking we can insert this concept as a conclusion that God wants us to be stewards of the earth. And what does that really mean, right? I'm noticing that my tendency on all projects is to complexify them quickly into what they could be. And that tends to make things a little bit big and complicated. So it would be lovely to sort of pair this back for a moment to the quick first book to figure out what's in the text that we offer her. We have this side conversation to have about under what copyright scheme should that work exist. But I think our immediate work is to figure out given the text that you shared with us, how do we divide and conquer? How do we make it better? What do we want to do with it? What do you want it to be more like? When you said it, we could easily flesh it out more in lots of different ways. I agree, it could be many more things. But I'm wondering what that is. Go ahead, Patty. Thanks. I love the direction this is going. Klaus, I really appreciated that point. I love the idea of harnessing this. This is my language for like lost energy. Maybe there's so much I can tell there's, it seems to me that there is still a lot of willingness and momentum in the Christian movement. And as you say, maybe not so much what feels like I'm gonna be careful here with how I say it. That to me feels like a really relevant and modern and neutral space to funnel that energy that also could perhaps if this were to really gain momentum in that direction really serve as a way to maybe heal the divide I've seen between maybe like hyper-intellectual or intellectual space and the Christian space. And I have witnessed in my experience this kind of two parties that may not know how to bridge this gap. And I could see that potentially being the space where two sides could begin to move and to a shared cause and a shared understanding. I think there's also potential here if I'm trying to think of other movements in the past that have gained momentum without using like shame fear and like disempowering the people who are part of the movement. And I don't remember much about how the script, the societal script around cigarette use flipped because it didn't used to be perceived as this thing that was very, it was advertised as this thing that was very cool, trendy that I think might have been a little before my time. And then wasn't there a campaign that fairly quickly shifted the societal lens around that and wasn't it something that was just kind of like portraying it as less cool than it had been advertised or portrayed in the past? Is that even close? I might be totally off base about that. I could use some help here. I think there were many campaigns to try to make cigarette smoking uncool. I think that was a path taken a lot. I don't know. I'm not remembering one that particularly worked or caught on fire. Well, yeah. They stopped allowing using smoking on TV. You aren't allowed on TV. It's interesting that for both smoking and seat belts, two things I can think of offhand, there was general public like, no, no, no, we love our smoking. We don't want seat belts that constrain us. And then both of those things got made into laws and like smoking is down to, I don't know, 15% of Americans or something like that at this point. And it was like 19 or 20 pretty recently. So it's still on the downward trend. And seat, not only seat belts, but shoulder belts and airbags and anti-lock brakes. And now radar warning systems and like radar domes that fit on top of your, like we're going, like safety went all in. I was surprised at how quickly, I was surprised that anti-lock braking and airbags were even feasible so inexpensively, right? Cause anti-lock brakes start with airliners. Like airplanes, figure out how to do anti-lock brakes so that airplanes don't skid on landing. It turns out that that's really important and that's a really expensive device in boom. And from there to your car on all four wheels, et cetera, that's insane, but it happened. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Go ahead, Penny. No, not at all. And it does the other example I was reaching for was the seat belts. Because I think I remember that happening like fairly quickly that societal like acceptance, like, okay, sure. You know, it was like kind of odd and strange in the larger context of things we've been asked to change or step into that we may not have wanted. And so I'm just thinking of the story and I wonder if we can find some way to, man, it'd be so cool if we could find a way to bring this neutralizing undertone. I'm gonna say neutralizing undertone. I mean, you know, if the environmental movement is, can be perceived as polarized or charged or I don't want it, that's inconvenient for me. Like, can we create some kind of mechanism within the play within the story that acts as or has a similar function, function, a similar impact or similar leveraging similar emotional buttons as those other two movements or at least the seat belt movement may have had can we find a way to create, read this, read or put energy towards the story of cohesiveness and we think versus me think. And isn't there some kind of evolutionary benefit and or punishment, but it wasn't like, there's something in us that wants to is, has been like, we think serves the tribe. I suspect there's some kind of emotional something we can appeal to that can help us come back to that and remember that. And I'm wondering what it would look like to bring any of those elements into this play and the story that could be potentially replicable and grow and we're growing a story that is empowering rather than divisive as much as possible. I agree. And as I'm sort of reflecting on this it feels really touchy and complicated because for both smoking and seat belt I think one of the strategies was we're gonna show everybody graphic images of what happens when you smoke a lot here's your lung on cigarettes. And also we're gonna show you like dead people from car accidents who got thrown out the window and all that kind of stuff. And that was yucky and didn't, I don't know how well that worked. I imagine that seeing how horrible your lungs get turned a couple of people off. But then also in both cases this was seen as government intrusion and that is a very hot topic right now. So it's like, no, the government's not gonna tell me what to do. It should be a local matter. Let me decide. It's like, no, for things like that you kind of need to decide at a big, like slavery can't be a local issue. You can't have some states that are like, you know, slavery is okay. We still like slavery. You can't do that. And I think that public safety is sort of like that. But then public safety gets touchy at different points. It's like, should microaggressions be a question of public safety? Whoa, that would be a really huge issue, right? So you could argue that soil fertility, soil health in all of this is a public safety issue and should follow similar paths. But as I'm just sort of trying to explore they sound really touchy. And I think that it feels to me like there's a piece of this that needs to be at least in the context we're talking about here, semi spiritual and sort of narrative, emotional and spiritual those things will work and will connect. And I don't even know exactly what kind of spirituality that means. It might in fact be that the book varies by denomination. Got me? I don't know. But heading toward regulations and heading toward science and facts and all those kinds of things in the context we're talking about sounds counterproductive, alas. But a piece of what Klaus, what you wrote and what this is intended to be is a clarification of the scientific real world relationships between all the components of these complicated systems and how they keep us alive. So what do we do with that? Go ahead, Penny. Oh, thanks, Jerry. As an aside, just something else that's coming up for me this isn't so much speaking to what you were sharing, Jerry but just popped in. I'm wondering too how we can keep in the story how we can craft the story so that it keeps the potential viewers out of the overwhelm, shame, shutdown tendency that can so often happen in these conversations especially when there might not be a lot of education around the topics. And it just seems like this huge, like I don't know how to even begin to understand this problem. It's so big and it's really calling, I would say us all into a time down the road that hasn't quite happened yet. And we know that it's happening now and that things are progressing in a very real way in a very fast way at present. But I don't think everyone sees it like that. And I wonder how we can keep this accessible for, that's probably the word I'm looking for accessible for anyone who might be newer or, you know coming into this conversation. So like I think maybe a design goal for the quick first book is some version of simplicity to avoid overwhelm and some version of looking up, not looking down to avoid shame, right? Yeah, I like the idea of putting it into a spiritual context. You know, the idea of stewardship because many and I can see this play out in churches because the audience that you get and I spent quite a bit of time a period in my life where we would go to church regularly to an evangelical free church and I was actually a leader in the church. So I'm familiar with the emotional context of this. And they're good people. I mean, they're really well-meaning good people who want to do the right thing basically, you know and the noise and the distraction in the system just makes a mess of it. So this has, this now provides a politically context free way of understanding the natural world and how important it is that the soil be kept healthy. And we don't need to go into any of the implications what does this really mean now, right? We can approach that. Once there's an interest in there then we can continue talking. But to leave this sort of in this shell that it is in right now and maybe end it with the concept of stewardship with the stewards of nature. We need to take care of it. And people can translate this into planting trees now and into cleaning up, recycling and all kinds of things. Or they can go further and look at what our food system and water pollution and all of those things now but we can then leave that up to what people take out of it. Other thoughts, reactions? I like the, as I'm thinking of this more I love the idea of deploying this idea in the medium to the medium of play in the context of a church community setting. That's already, I mean, I would hope in many instances that's already a space where a community is established there's hopefully some sense of safety within that community that is established. And thus I think messages tend to land a little differently where those two elements are present. And rather than if I'm just sitting on one side of the screen by myself and this is a new concept for me like there's a kind of built-in sense of like a landing cushion, a softer landing I think for new ideas perhaps in spaces like this. So I think it's really exciting that this opportunity arose and the more I'm thinking about the more excited I'm feeling about it. Cool. I, it's very funny, I'm sort of with you on Patty on how I'm feeling about the project and this potential. And then I know very much that this is not, this is I am out of my depth in the context and content that we're talking about. And I just wanna be a steward of the process and other sorts of things and figure out how to get there without dabbling so much that I fuck it up. So to speak. They're all flying by the seats of our fans here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the ticket. So a piece of this is building good relationships with people who are excited by the prospect of helping and figuring that out. So for that we kind of need, we need some work on, hey, what's a good copyright to put this under? And I think a way of, and maybe we just asked this of chatGPT also, that's probably a good idea, Klaus, if you wanted to play with chatGPT, but to ask it, and I added a couple of questions, by the way, to your chatGPT prompts document about not in the context of a children's book or a play for churches, but rather in the context of just a book, a quick first book about bioregionalism. But the question here to chatGPT would just be for a collaborative book that is meant to be in the commons, what is the best copyright to use? Something like that. I'm just curious, Klaus, what bioregion is this particular church in? Because I would assume that would be the first one that we would start with. They are in Kansas, Missouri, Kansas City, Missouri. Thank you. Well, Kansas City, city of fountains. And that's the second time that Kansas City has come up in my day today. Because the USS Kansas is moored and on the Willamette River. It's sort of Fleet Week here in Portland. There's a couple of ships there and I learned this morning that it's the USS Kansas or Kansas City, I forget which. And apparently if you do the onboard tour, everything is themed like all street names from Kansas City and all that kind of stuff. I think Judy has a place there in Kansas City. Yeah, I think that's right. Good, so how do we divide and conquer? Go ahead, Klaus. Well, I think what I'd like to do next is expand the chapters. So let me just, we'll always... You want to screen share and scroll around and talk about it? Yeah, let's do that. So this was this one here. And I guess this is storyline. And... Well, the one, the story, the choice, and so that's all I had to do. There you go. That's it. So what I did is I fleshed out Act One. From the, the original one goes to synopsis. So then I asked Chad GTP, give me characters. So it builds the characters out here. Sweet. And then, so I brought it to there. And then there's Act Two, the threads. Then we come to pollution and there's the synopsis. So I can do the same here and assign roles to the characters. And then the battle for survival and then a ray of hope. And then the resilient garden stewards of the earth. And then there's an epilogue. So that's really as far as... So I can flesh that out into this level of detail that we have in the first, in the first into in Act One, scene one. So did you share this also with, what's her name, Marianne? No, no, I haven't shared this yet. So she's only seen the first part of prose up to, up to the prompts. She has seen this here, the basically up to here. Okay. So partly I'm wondering, if you go ahead and basically start writing a play, will she feel like, well, you've already done a play or how will her approach or motivation change? Because I like what you're doing. It looks really, really cool. It also feels like you're doing what she volunteered to do. Well, the way I would frame it is to say, look, we expanded this a little bit. Doesn't mean that you have to take it from the light. We just wanted to give you more of a storyline to crab onto. So we are perfectly fine with you using this. We had to put a copyright on it so it wouldn't get completely lost. But this is the type of copyright we put on there. And we would appreciate a collaboration with you to spin this out. And then you can share it with other churches and then we will also advance this and also with your help and then continue to share it. But there's a group of people working on this. And so we wanted to have to maintain some authorship over the story. That seems pretty reasonable to me. Go ahead, Tani. I'm curious if we have a concern around or something that's coming up for me as a possible concern could be the creative liberty that is taken with this play as it is passed from, if it is passed from church, church, church. Do we want to have or do we need to build in any firmer? The boundaries isn't the word, but parameters and how and if so how do we or maybe we don't have a part in sustaining that as this grows organically on its own. Do we manage that? Are we concerned? Does anyone else see that as a possibility for concern? Absolutely. I can easily see that some group would take this and turn it entirely to their own purposes and it would be hard to maintain stuff. It's really, so there's some forms of copyright that are basically, you can't modify this work, which is not what we want. We want people to riff on this work, right? So we can't use anything like that. And those are hard to enforce because people see those and they're like, eh, whatever, they modify them all the time. Anyway, a different form of copyright or maybe it's something different from copyright. I don't know or we could bake our own. And I haven't seen this one as one of the legit forms that are out there in the wild right now is, hey, any derivative work has to point back to the original work. You can do anything you want with this, but there must be a link back to the originating work, which means anybody who sees that, and like that notice has got to be visible enough that somebody would see it and be able to go back. But then anybody who sees that could go back and go, well, this is really different from where they started. At least they would notice that. Don't know how much that would help either, but that's one way to try to dampen drift. One thing is drift that's really productive, which is like riffing and remixing and doing exciting and cool new things with it that are consistent with the intentions of the original. Then you have intentional drift where it might even be flipped back 180 degrees to justify industrial agriculture or whatever else. And you don't want that. We'd like to dampen that as a possible outcome. So I think your concern is pretty justified if we're pursuing an open, hey, everybody come in and remix this strategy. And also by the by, if we finish the quick first book and go with Pete and produce a method to take markdown files, roll them up, spit them out as an EPUB or Kindle file format file, and get that uploaded to Amazon pretty elegantly. And that's a lot of work that's not gonna happen quickly or easily. But if we can figure that out, then we can tell anybody who's gotten pretty far with their version of this work to come back in and do that process and publish their own school or their own church's version of this work. Each of which could be a riff on the original as part of a tree of the work. And then there's like tree and roots and all that kind of thing that gets to be an exciting metaphor. And that would be cool too. And that would create a whole series of books that are on the same theme. And the kids could be publishing a book as part of a school project or a church project or whatever else that that's that's kind of cool as well. Sorry, Stacey, you were about to jump into. Okay, I'm sorry, I have to leave. I'm gonna be away for a few days. So I don't know if I'm gonna make Thursday but I'll be back next week. And I'm really excited this, this is exciting. So thank you and I will talk to you all soon. Bye-bye. Bye, Stacey. Bye, Stacey. And I'm going to be at the Oregon coast for tomorrow through Thursday but I think Thursday morning I'll be able to make the OGM call. So I- Next Monday, I'm out camping and- You're camping? Yeah, I'm camping. So I'm not sure I have internet. My wife probably killed me if I tried to jump online. I think that's very factual probably and or at least metaphorically. And so we will not expect you to join next Monday. So which means we should figure out how to divide and conquer some of these questions and how to see if we can't answer some of these outstanding questions. Yeah, would this be a good time to bring Pete back in? Who early? Wait, well, for the copyright question I think a good thing to do would be I will rename the Marley channel to Neo Books. And Pete is still on it. I don't think he'll drop off it. So either there or elsewhere in like the town square we should just broadly probably in the town square where there's many more people. One of us should ask the question that I just posted in the chat. And Klaus, if you wanna ask Chat to PT that question and get an answer and post the question and the answer to the town square that would be really good and that would do it right away. Cause I think we need to crowdsource a good answer to which copyright to use. Yeah. So something like, you know the Neo Book project is wondering what's the most appropriate copyright to use for a book that is really open and collaborative. That would be terrific. Yeah. Okay. I'm also gonna do my first semi long distance driving adventure in our Nissan Leaf. So I'm checking for charging stations and all that kind of stuff. It's like, ah, interesting. You bought a Nissan Leaf? We got a Leaf last year. It's a little bit over a year old now. We were not up for spending the money of a Tesla and since a year ago, apparently this guy's Musk's reputation has sourged just a little bit. So we're kind of happy we didn't get a Tesla but we just got a Leaf and we didn't even get the Leaf V which has the 100 miles more range. We got the base model cause we thought city driving is pretty much all we're gonna do with it. So I have to recharge once on the way to the coast. I could make a V line to the coast and probably make it on one tank of electrons but to go down south a bit, I've got to recharge. Yeah. Well, my next car is gonna be electric. I'm pretty sure but I'm gonna wait a while. The market is filling up with lots of exciting new models. When we shopped a year and a half ago once we decided not hybrid there were really only a couple of candidates for a fully electric car. There were not a lot of and once we said no Tesla. Yeah. And now there's just a whole really exciting bunch of stuff on the market. Yeah. It's all about charging stations at this point. And Tesla and GM just made a deal that GM's going to adopt the Tesla charging and think that that could actually swing things a lot. Oh, that's right. So that could actually change everybody toward Tesla connectors which, and Tesla open sourced their battery technology but I don't know that they open sourced the charger stuff. I have no idea how broad that was. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, it'd be pretty cool if we ended up on a good standard because I think those are like the supercharger stations are. Oh, I mean remember what happened with the VHS format? They don't, it'll shake itself up. Well, as Sony has this habit of inventing better technology and making it proprietary and then losing the war consistently. They have great engineering. They field something that's really good and then they insist on making it proprietary. Sony's been such a dumb company in so many ways. And then Sony entertainment, same thing. Anyway, we're drifting from our topic. I apologize. So how about, I won't be able to be there Thursday after bring my RV to the shop the morning. So I'm out of commission for a couple of weeks. But I can go online and find time to work. So I can put this into some sort of book format. You know, you have pages to get to go through. I wouldn't worry about pages at this point. I would just worry about a manuscript and just try to if you want to amplify what you've got there. The Google lock is going to be perfect for collaborating. If you want to amplify that, that's fine. But I wouldn't worry yet about the book like Elements. Well, I'm adding. OK. Yeah. Yeah. So so if I can spin that out, then I can contact the the Kansas Church and say, look, we love to work with you. We're working on expanding this the storyline. But we want to give her already a copy of this rough draft storyline so she can pick it from there and fly and work with it. So Patty, I'm wondering how you feel on this. My own instinct is if you send her a note that says, hey, we think that some sort of copyright is important for this. And we're going to sort, you know, we're going to research that and then be we've you've taken an attempt at an outline for a play. You don't have to use it. This is just a particular like riff on doing it. But if you like it, go crazy, use it and so forth. If you add those things in, I think bringing her in sooner rather than later is a really good thing, because then she'll feel like she had a really big hand in in sort of helping create it. Patty, do you differ on any of those things? Oh, I don't I don't think so. I think maybe the question that's alive for me is at this point, it sounds like the focus is more in getting getting this like what's right in front of us, this possible collaboration with what was her name, Mary, Marian Klaus? Although I need to if you'll copy her name and paste it into the chat, then we'll have it. It's Mary and Thomas, Mary and Thomas. Um, yeah, so it sounds like the the the imminent priority, the most immediate priority is to to get this moving with her and get this started. And also also we're focusing on the new book and getting that to it clear and a place where where things are moving there. I think the question I have is how just for a moment, hopping back to that can like possible concern of creating some kind of replicable format for this. Once we do have clarity around like what the copyright protocol is for something like this, like creating that kind of built in. I don't know what the language is here. Parameters, things that that that protect the original idea, protect the integrity of the intention of the original idea. As I said, in these spaces where like they're right, there may be there may be ignorance of the topic people wanting to do the best they can and, you know, creatively elaborate. Do we need that? Do we want to have that built in before we bring Marion on board? Or are we does that maybe further down the road? My own feeling is that the quick first book should as quickly as we can link to better materials, richer materials, deeper materials on the wiki and other resources and pointing to articles and other resources that are out there in the world that we already know about kind of as quick as possible so that anybody coming in going, what's this micro horizon thing? What can go read stuff and follow up and kind of learn about it pretty quickly so that it becomes a learning resource as quickly as it's a screenplay. But that's just my take on it. Yeah. I wonder if there if there's any benefit to having pretty clear not to like limit creative liberty as this as this moves as this progresses among other communities. But is might it be a good idea to have kind of a clear sense of like what the directions we don't want to be moving in in this in this movement, you know, around maybe things that might feel kind of familiar and like what people may know around industrialization or practices that are not sustainable won't be sustainable. And like that might not be even on someone's radar. Do we have really clear language naming that so that it's that's a really easy place or way for people to understand the larger picture of where things are moving in this idea and just just kind of give people more. I don't love, you know, black and white ways of thinking of things. Right. But sometimes if there is potential for overwhelm, that can be that can feel and create a sense of like safety within absorbing a new idea. No. OK. Where do I go? Where do I not go in? Who are we to say that to anyone? Right. But I wonder if there's benefits of having some kind of framework like that in built in to this. And I don't really know what are you guys's thoughts? It feels like having some guidelines connected to participating in this project would be great of the kind that you just described. If you wanted to take a swing and just writing a couple of paragraphs in this document, maybe at the very bottom, just say, here's some draft guidelines, I'm happy to drop them into a markdown page and connect it to the project and do some of that kind of stuff. So that it lives there. I think we need to sort of be inviting, but also gently structuring how this thing works so that. Here, here, here are our intentions with this piece and here are things that are going to like fit those intentions and here are things that might not fit those intentions at that point. When I start saying might not, I don't know how to describe that properly. I don't know how to I don't know how to prohibit or negatively we enforce stuff we'd rather not have happen here. We kind of have to start with positive energy, make the invite and see if things turn out directionally. Aligned with where we're aiming, right? Jerry was an invitation for me to write those last couple of paragraphs of guidelines and parameters, or is that a general invitation? Patty, if you'd like to take a swing at what you were just saying, then then I will try to paraphrase and put some in. All right. Right. Oh, no, so I'm sorry that the head shake was just like I feel really aware of I feel like I'm swimming and not knowing what I don't know. And so I think I feel kind of cautious around. I I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to provide much in the direction of what you're suggesting that would feel valuable because I'm learning here in this space, part of me being my coming back to this project is to learn and engage and and to learn. And so I don't know that I feel like I'm qualified. None of us. Yeah, none of us is particularly exactly. Part of what caused me to ask you was that I really liked what you said just before about that. And it was like you may you may have no experience doing that, but your instincts on it were very good. And the way you were framing and phrasing things I really liked. So that's why I was sort of asking if you'd like to take a swing at it. But I'm happy to. And also, this is also a great opportunity to play this chat. GPT and frame you and focus on framing your question instead of looking for answers because I mean, look at this thing. I wrote this this script there in like, you know, 30 minutes now. It's just but but you you really have to sort of almost meditate on what are you asking now and what's the what's the question? Because if you miss that question just a little bit, you get nothing, you know, garbage. So that's that's and that's really a skill. My son is all over this, right? I mean, he's head of talent branding for Sam Sera. And so he's very much challenged, you know, with having to think of stuff that he has no background in. So he's using AI and he's there to actually now programs that teach you how to ask questions or how to frame questions. So if you look at it from this as an exploration, you know, of what are my what answers am I seeking? You know, that will lead you to the questions that that you need to ask. Programs, I think I think this means courses or online courses or other things that I think that's what class means. Prompt craft would be if I wanted to follow that trail, that would be the language used at awesome. Thank you. Prompt engineering is probably the more common term. Prompt craft is probably the warmer term. Nice. Yeah. But if you want to search that, that's the way to go. You'll be amazed how smart you are. Menchachi Pt gives you this. Wow, you know, amazing response. Thanks for the encouragement from both of you. I appreciate it. And Jerry, I would like to try that. I'll try to take a crack at that. In which document am I adding that to? The one, the joys of soil, the one we were just looking at. Just just go all go all the way to the bottom. And if you've added something, then just are you you're on the matter most, right? Yeah, yes, yes. If you if you add anything and you'd like us to take a look at it, just mention it in the channel in the soon to be renamed Neobooks channel. OK, and we'll go look. OK, thanks. And by the way, just so because I have to rename that file to to protect it is in the Mali shared folder. Um. Well, let me just get this so make sure that you have it. Who who originated that folder? Was that me? Was that you? Pete, oh, it's Pete. OK, so we should ask Pete to rename the folder and that that should work. OK. Yeah, so. Yes, yes, the folder. So so then that's where the files are located. Well, thank you. I will I will send Pete a request to rename the folder. Cool. And I will go now and change the names on the matter most and such. OK, so do we have a we have a plan? I think we have some marching orders. Feels good. Yeah. Feels exciting. And it feels like if we get the dynamics right and get the invite right and start some activities that we can this can start sort of moving beyond our little circle here. Yeah. And and if we if we get that going, then we go back to OGM and we say, hey, people, we've been out doing this new book thing. We now have this, this, this, this, this happening. Please join us. Bring your ideas. Let's let's, you know, riff on them. And then, you know, as soon as we have something that smells like a book or or a script or something like that, we go to Pete and we like, hey, Pete, how do we turn this thing into an EPUB? Yeah. And when we when we broaden this out, we may have members who know someone who can really make this fight. Exactly. Exactly. We have some really well connected people. I think one of the characteristics of NIO books, and maybe I'm wrong about this, is that the first edition. Of a NIO book is kind of like, you know, version one of software. It's like alpha software. But the book might actually improve dramatically in revisions. Because it might be started as a almost like a placeholder for a set of ideas that are kind of vague and that are that are casting for a community to make them better. And it could be that rev three major revision three of a NIO book is in fact, the one that starts to feel like, oh, OK, this is really congealing. This is making sense as opposed to our normal way of doing books now, which is like V one, better damn well be the best book you can possibly write around the topic with everything you want to say because we don't go back and revise books that often. It's been and it doesn't happen for like three years. So something like that. I'm trying I'm trying to mess around with the notion of a book a lot here. Please go ahead, Patty. Yeah, question about the NIO book and then a question about the soil. We call it the soil project. Is there did we decide on a name for we were calling food revolt was where we were on this doesn't feel like the title of a play for church. So no, I think I think the book right now is the joys and sorrows of soil. OK, OK. Do we as I'm going to be bothered if I call it the soil project if for for short. OK, sounds great. OK, great. Question about NIO books is so is it and I look on the website a little bit the other day, but didn't feel clear to me whether or not this was NIO books or something that like this is more of a collaborative space rather than like the single ownership. Method of bookwriting that I'm familiar with, it sounds like you know, someone can create this NIO book of the idea can be and is encouraged to be shared among communities and there's collaboration among growing the idea or can it still be can NIO books still be the more one person doing doing the thing. And it's just a new platform for people to do that on. So online to do list, which I ignored over the weekend was to record some videos explaining the books better. Oh, nice. Cool. I look forward to it. Yeah, thank you. And then what you just asked needs to be explained in there as well. But the notion is to just sort of rethink how books work in our society and and to to to harness the fact that everybody knows what a book is. Even people who hate reading books know what books are. So books are extremely familiar cultural artifacts, but then to dissolve what's wrong or broken about books and then to change how books get made and manifest in the world in some productive way. Super super and well explained. Thank you. That's that's exciting to to consider. Well, the question about so earlier, we had said one of the to do points we could be focusing on is building relationships with people who can help. I'm curious in both of your opinions, who would be the kinds of people who you would see like might be sympathetic to what we're trying to do and what kind of people are we trying to recruit to to help as this playwrights is this people who are you know, have a background in theater, what areas are we needing support in that as we acknowledge it doesn't sound like any of us really have a lot of experience, at least I don't in the world of play and making plays and things of that nature. And I can start thinking of people in this community. I couldn't make it. I can reach out to I think. Yes, all of the above of everybody who just said class, I don't know who else comes to mind for you. I was just thinking I have a friend from very long ago who got really good at writing children songs. Yeah, so I think this is sort of serendipitously fell into this children's play and book and wonderful idea. But now it just opens up, you know, a whole new era, a whole new area of exploration. Right. And when I was still living in Germany when I came back in Germany, I was really getting enamored with experimental art, you know, experimental plays with can I mean, just really very symbolic kind of plays, you know, and this would really lend itself for something like this, you know, where you can have an interaction with ballet and expression, you know, to to convey the joy and the agony, you know, of soil and so that could that could become very easily an adult theme, you know, as well. So this so you could display, it could be layered, you know, to to different audiences if it continues to resonate. I mean, I was amazed how I mean, instantly I had feedback in the Sailor Club. We need to put this on our website. Wow. Story. I mean, that really blew me away. So so I really like the idea that there is a seed document that's pretty good. It's like it's already pretty good, like the story you wrote, and it doesn't need to be huge and long. It can just be a seed document. Then from that, a whole variety of things grow, including a children's play for churches that is customizable to your particular community and your bio region, for example. But also an experimental theater piece that is half composed by chat. GPT turns into a performance thing for community theaters or whoever is interested in experimental theater. That would be super, super interesting. But that each of them points back to the seed and says, I have germinated from and sprouted from and branched away from this thing over here that started this. And and and this becomes a new a new kind of work where there is a theme. And I drank too much coffee this morning. Sorry, my throat is all kind of blemy. Where there's there's clearly a theme and a direction. And then it just kind of organically sprouted a whole series of manifestations through the mycelial network or the five levels of difficulty. Thank you. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I I misnamed the book earlier. I called it the understory. It's actually the novels called the overstory. And and I think we should have maybe a couple little examples of fictional stories around healing the earth, you know, and nature and all that kind of stuff. And I think there's a there's a genre there that if we sort of plumb a little bit, we'll find some. This is another good question for chat, GPT. Yeah, I mean, but really our conversation last week with Sunil and who was the other gentleman who was with us? Barry is Barry. Yeah, Barry is Barry. I mean, that was that was inspiring because, you know, it's just with things through how do you reach people, you know, so so that you cut under you, you flow underneath this wall of rejections on so many levels, right? How can you blow underneath? And and so that that got me to think about whether we experiment along those lines. Love that. So great. Go ahead, Patty. Yeah, Klaus kind of riffing on that. I what's been just maybe as a larger kind of zooming out a few levels, something that's been present for me. And as I'm thinking of how, you know, in my own the work I'm doing and the messages that I want to be bringing, how can we, how do you say it? That said really beautifully, said slip underneath the wall of you said it really well. But I think I think what's occurring to me is I'm kind of striking out in the world of entrepreneurship and business for the first time. There's all of this in the sphere that I'm in. It's like the self-help, coaching, wellness space. There's so much messaging around the the most effective way to market to people right now. And so much of it really does feel incredibly to me feels very manipulative, which I understand that's, you know, kind of what, you know, that's not a new story in marketing. But I'm it feels like to me that the larger theme in a lot of the messages I'm giving is that there's this belief that the the only way to reach people to cut through the noise is to, you know, is shock value is, you know, kind of the cheaper ways of getting attention. And I'm finding myself feeling curious about like what would it look like to trust that people still are tapped into their own personal power and and can can still respond to something that isn't what we're used to, right? And it's almost, you know, as I'm trying to figure out, OK, what is my own effort look like in this space? And I really don't want to move in the direction I'm being encouraged. And the only way I'm told is like the only way to do it. And I really believe that there's possibly I hope there's potential in appealing to people in a different way. That isn't, you know, I can have all the cheap tricks. That's my language for it. And I kind of I'm wondering if maybe that suspicion might be around the close to the the fulcrum point where there is this paradigm tipping and shifting away from and out of affecting and moving people through what I would call disempowering means and into this new space. We're actually coming back to more, I don't know, like pure or more effective ways. I don't really know what I'm with the language and trying to define, but moving out of the way people are targeted and manipulated and into this space where like I still think I hope I trust, I hope there's we can still respond in a different way. And so I wonder if and I don't know if I don't know if that made if that made sense, it was kind of me trying to verbally process it out loud, but if if that feels resonant, I wonder if we can bring that weave that into this project somehow. I had a I got into a discussion with Nora Bederson on one of the workshops. The there was this workshop future. I mean, some future focused group. And we had some we had Daniel Ball in there. I mean, we had some really interesting speakers that came to it. But she was like adamant, you know, that we should not and never use the money, what she called what she considered the manipulative manipulation tactics of, you know, the counter side and so on. And my point was, well, how do you reach people now? I mean, why would you call it manipulation? I mean, when you when you engage with different population groups, then you have to engage them into space where they are. So if I change my language in order to match that person's language so they can hear me, is this manipulative? Well, in some ways, you could argue, yes, it is. But you could also say, well, I want to be heard now. And so I need to get within the context of that individual or that group of people more likely to to to modulate the message in ways that it can resonate. So what we found with this kind of story is that. People really have deeply held emotional angst about what they see going on around them. I mean, people see, you know, the New York darkened out by forest fires from Canada and droughts and storms and, you know, all these horrible stories. So people are really alarmed, you know, and so they don't but they don't want to be at the same time. There are so many conflicting messages to that are in the in the playing. So this story connected at a really deep seated almost DNA level connection, you know, because I can really relate to life in the soil now and Mr. Soil and so on. So that's perfectly OK, because we're doing it for good reasons now. We're not we're you know, if you get people to do the right thing is this manipulation. So yeah, I understand the the and I did not come to an agreement with Madison. She was just like adamant, you know, that this is just not the next path towards bad things. But, you know, I don't know how else you would reach people that that are so removed otherwise. So we don't we've forgotten how to reach people besides plundering their data to figure out what they're looking at manipulating that data to create a message and then and then filling their environment with noise that is often either temptations they can never fulfill or fears that they should respond to. And that the world of modern modern mass marketing. And I think what Patty voiced really beautifully just now is, hey, can we actually make a success out of this and reach people by having something compelling, meaningful, contagious, because it helps people like connect and fix things and tell stories and and sort sort of really complicated issues in a relatively simple way. And I'd love to be able to do that. That'd be terrific. I felt really I can we can we circle back around just for a moment to that explain things in different levels of difficulty. I if we're Jerry, you're mentioning and you've been highlighting the importance of like, man, if it can just really get clear on this first new book and create this really simple, really easy to replicate and framework that can, you know, be expounded upon organically, maybe without us having to push it to do so. We just create this really solid framework to begin with and then, you know, things can grow from there. I would be inclined to think that it could be really valuable to get clear on like, you know, and then I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to help much in this idea. But Klaus, you know, you strike me as someone who has you seem to have a really good pulse on the hop conversations around the environmental movement and some of the things that a lot of people seem to find emotionally compelling that may not also be accurate or a great representation of the actual problems. And that's just based on the emails I read from you and the conversations I've observed in the OGM mailing list. I wonder if there's some way we could build out, you know, the core message, which I've heard you verbally express on these calls before. And I think it's done really well, you know, how you capture what seems to me to be this really broad and complicated and complex issue and pare it down in a way that's like pretty easy to understand and digest. And, you know, so if that if that verbal expression might be the bare bones of the idea, can we work up from there and work down from there clearly identifying levels of simplicity and complexity addressing and maybe even thinking, OK, what populations might be even just in this first expression of this play in this new book, what populations might we hit first? Can we and then, you know, where might the trajectory of that idea lead outside of that? We can't know that, but I wonder at the thought exercise if it would be valuable to just start conceptualizing like what kinds of people might be hearing this message, what maybe, you know, what could they be feeling when they hear and how can we package this in a way that's accessible to as many different kinds of people as possible that may be hearing it. So I don't know how I don't know how that would work, right? But I'm attracted to the idea of really clearly defining and articulating levels of complexity, simplicity around the core idea and having just means and methods of easy deployment or at least just like a place where each idea lives. And so that even be helpful maybe for the group as this group begins to grow. It might be helpful to have that bed of knowledge for anyone who is curious about learning more about this and really showing up to these conversations from a place of wanting to be a little more informed. And it's just it's also something I haven't seen before in the world. This, you know, idea packaged in a way that's accessible to anyone. And so I'm attracted to the idea of creating levels of clear levels of simplicity or complexity that feel accessible. It might be a good starting point for the new book too. Thoughts? So then the quick first book feels like the first level, wherever we choose that's the first level then subsequent riffs would take it to different levels and do other kinds of spins on it, I think. But we need to pick one place for the first level, the first version of this from which all these other things can sprout. And doing the different levels sounds like a task for GPT as a start. As we were talking earlier, I was like, wouldn't it be cool once we get a play to ask chat GPT to turn the play into a screen play per like a Wes Anderson movie? Like a Wes Anderson stop motion animation movie or something like that. And then ask one of the video generator, generative AIs to go make that movie, right? It's like very interesting, things been out of this pretty quickly, given where we are with the compliance of technology and humans and nature. Sorry, Klaus, you were gonna say something. Yeah, no, I'm actually connected with filmmakers. But you have to come to the table with money as the platform, so we have to- How about with creative ideas? Does that solve the problem? They're saying, yeah, we love to creative ideas. So we have money to bring with it. So you would have to come and bring a funder to the table. Yeah, I mean, in my previous three retirement life, my last job of us, the head of corporate target group marketing and my picks. And that was really a fascinating thing because we were operating in sweaty countries and I had a team of analysts in each country and then we were divided in Eastern Europe, Western Europe and Asia. And so I would meet once a quarter, I would have a training session in either one of those regions. And then once a year, we had, we brought everybody to Düsseldorf and had a global group there. And what the core principle was is that segmentation is the best predictor of behavior. So when you bring your target groups down to defining commonalities within a group, now in this case, it was buying behavior and assortment selections and so on and so on. But when you segment people, and this is really, I mean, this is the power of what Facebook did during the 2016 elections with the scandal there, because they gave enough data out there that allowed the segmentation of people into groups and then you could customize messages to those groups. Now, unfortunately at that time for nefarious reasons, but you can also do it for good reasons. So when you're dealing with a church group like this, you know their mindset and you know what stimulates them, words that attract them, the emotional context within which a Christian group operates. And so that's all important. So now as we discover another target group, we can then modulate the story to attest that target group in ways that, so for example, when I'm saying abstract theater, well, that attracts a group of more intellectually theoretical forms of audiences, that elevates this to a whole different level. So we can play with that as we go along. Right now we have an opportunity to get this church group going. Now, and which is so replicable because if we can get this right, then that story could travel. I'm gonna paste a video in the chat that I made some time ago. Let's see when I put it in my brain. 2016, called Advertising is War. And I've used this riff in a couple of speeches and it would be lovely if we could lose target markets and all that kind of language. So my own amateur theory of this, this is a piece of what's in the videos is, at the end of World War II is when major media all come together to form the media environment we were familiar with until the internet. TV takes off after World War II like crazy. TV exists before World War II, but it's just a fledgling thing. After World War II everybody goes from having a radio in the Great Depression to wow, boom times TV. And a whole bunch of veterans come out of Europe and go and the Pacific and they go to, and many of them go to Madison Avenue and become admin like the movie like the series Mad Men. And they get to Madison Avenue and they're like, oh, I recognize this. This is just like strategic bombing. The weapons are packages of messages, which in those days you make a media buy into newspapers, into magazines, onto television, whatever else we didn't have integrated media campaigns, none of that was existed really yet. But the messages, the missiles or the bombs are basically messages like, we send flights of messages like flights of missiles like the MLRS that are bombing Ukrainians right now, back and forth. And so we do market penetration, we pay by the impression because we're actually making invisible psychological dents on people's brains by dropping these messages in front of them all the time. And it's violence. This is violence at every turn that we have normalized. And so the reason my old boss Esther Dyson thought that the word consumer didn't matter so much was that she had perfectly normalized away all this kind of behavior, which is the behavior of consumer mass marketing. And I hate it, I can't stand it, but we've lost something, I'll just echo what I said earlier, we've lost our understanding of how else to get word out. And it's entirely possible. I watched as instant messaging showed up as a little blip on the radar and then ate the world. And do you know how much marketing budget the early five or six instant messaging companies had? Zero. I am buddy lists ate the world because they were really useful and extremely contagious. Now, later it gets complicated to the point where you've got Twitter and stuff like that. And it's just, there's like a mess going on now. But really early, that was just super useful technology that caught fire because it was incredibly useful. And I loved that. I loved watching, at one point I was on a Manhattan bus and somebody yells to somebody else as they were getting off the bus. I am me that. And I'm like, we have reached mainstream. Like instant messaging is no longer a curiosity for geeks. This is mainstream totally. That made me very happy. Yeah, and I think that was also the point that Noah Peterson tried to make. And we sort of flew by each other because I mean, from a very practical, I lost the chest, my vocabulary, to express meaning in different ways. But it's basically, you do what you're doing for the right reasons. I mean, it's the intention behind what you're doing. Yeah, exactly. Well, go ahead, Patty. Oh, sorry, I was just gonna say I dropped this in. This was just an account. I started following in 2018. At the time she had 200,000 followers and content of her page aside. This is just an example of someone who, there's never any advertising, doesn't market, has a podcast, has a channel, doesn't have any affiliate, or she just presents her message and people tell each other about it because it resonates because I don't read. She's, I think she's very careful about avoiding shameful, shaming language in the content that she posts. And it just grew organically. She's almost at 7 million followers. That was five years ago. And so 200,000 to 7 million not by any traditional outreach, right? It was just a message that people really resonated with and shared and this is just a lot of word of mouth organic growth. And so I do, I have hope that it's possible, right? You know, I see it, it sounds like we've seen that kind of growth occur. And so yeah, I have hope and I think it's possible and would love to grow that in our own way, if possible. Love that. Well, we all have some work. Plus one more thing to just put in your ear as you head off to camp and stuff like that. What else does the Quick First Book need? Does it need a closing chapter that's like an epilogue about what you might do right now? Is that even appropriate for the Quick First Book? Does it need an intro? Cause what you've got is a nice body but what else would make it feel like a book like work? And I'm thinking that there is a little book and then there's a play, but it could be that there's first to play and I don't know. But I'm not sure that the play should be the very first output here. I think that there is a book. Yeah, then I mean, I will have to display sort of came in and disrupted the flow in a good way. In a really good way, I think from this call anyway. But yeah, going back to the book, I can separate the two probably make sense to separate the two. I would think I'd like to bring in some context about stewardship, you know, the I think that would be a good addition, maybe almost a closing argument. Let me play with it a little bit. If you can think of a chapter to add, then let me know that that would be helpful. Sounds good. I just need to play with it a little bit. We can all think about that. Thank you. Very good. Well, thank you, awesome. Enjoy your camping. Yeah, Patty, I'm so glad you're doing this, you know. Yeah, thank you for bringing a really important perspective to us. Thank you. Thank you for saying that, Klaus. It's fun. I really enjoyed our call today. This was a lot of fun. Look forward to next week and yeah, and enjoy your camping and Jerry, your trip is the next tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow morning I drive to the coast. Cool, have fun. Good luck and I'll see you all soon. Stay juiced. Yeah. Bye, everyone.