 Welcome everyone. Thank you for coming. I am delighted to welcome you to what is our last for this academic year launching leadership conversation. So thanks very much for being here. We always begin our program with the land acknowledgement, so we'll start with that. Mount Holyoke College begins each event in the life of the college by acknowledging that those of us in western Massachusetts are occupying the ancestral land of the Nanatuck people. We also acknowledge the neighboring indigenous nations, the Nipmunk and the Wampanoag to the east, the Mohegan and Pequot to the south, the Mohegan to the west, and the Abenaki to the north. We encourage every member of our community to learn about the original inhabitants of the land where they reside. The impact of settler colonization contributed to the displacement, removal, and attempted genocide of indigenous peoples. This land acknowledgement seeks to verbalize Mount Holyoke's commitment to engage in shared responsibility as part of our collective humanity. We urge everyone to participate in action steps identified by indigenous community-based organizations. And now I'm pleased, as I said, to welcome our special guest. I'll tell you about her in just a minute, but I want to say that our special guest has some special guests, so I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge the family of Caitlyn. Caitlyn Lambert, class of 2009, is here joined by her parents and her partners, so we want to say special welcome to you all as well. So let me start by saying that Caitlyn is one of four Mary Lyon award winners selected by the Alumni Association. That award is going to be given tomorrow, and I'm so pleased that she's on campus today so that we could have this conversation. These conversations are really intended to highlight the career journeys or paths of our graduates, recognizing that those paths are not always straight. Sometimes they zigzag. We'll hear about Caitlyn's journey in just a minute. It's pretty exciting, but it's always interesting and inspiring to see how the intellectual adventures of a Mount Holyoke education have been the catalyst for these exciting career journeys. So I'm going to tell you a little bit about Caitlyn. Caitlyn Lambert, class of 2009, is the executive director and co-founder of the Children's Legal Defense Center, a non-profit legal assistance organization in Hargesa Somaliland. She defends wrongfully imprisoned children. Caitlyn previously served as a legal officer and advisor for the Horizon Institute, developing and managing a criminal justice paralegal program that provided legal assistance to more than 3,000 detainees in Somaliland. She earned a JD from Villanova University and a master's degree in international human rights law from the University of Oxford. Before all of that, she was a Mount Holyoke student majoring in critical social thought. So, of course, my first question is this. How did you get from South Hadley to Somaliland in terms of your journey? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Great. Thanks, President Tatum. And I just want to say it's really a pleasure to be back at Mount Holyoke. It's been quite a while since I've been here, so I'm really thrilled to be back. Because it, for me, was a really critical time in my life, both personally and obviously professionally. So now, as President Tatum said, I'm in Somaliland, which is an autonomous region of Somalia. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, came to South Hadley, and yeah, it's a big question how did I get there? And being here at Mount Holyoke was a really big part of that. Of course, intellectually, right? As you know, some of the best education you can get anywhere in the world. But, and you know, I don't want to sound corny, but because of the inspiration of being here, I, you know, get down like everyone does. And sometimes I need a good quote. And a lot of times I turn to Mary Lyon, you know, go where no one else will go, do what no one else will do. And that's really, you know, the spirit of Mount Holyoke that got me to Somaliland. And in particular, you know, I was really lucky to be here at a time where at least I think there were some pretty amazing professors. I'm positive there are amazing professors now, but I'm a little biased. And one of the professors who is still here now, that I had the opportunity to study with, but who was also one of my advisors on critical social thought, Mary Brenda, I was at an advisory session and she said, you know, Caitlin, when you graduate from Mount Holyoke, you just need to have one big idea. That's it. Just one big idea. I'm pretty sure at the time I was stressing out about something and getting really nervous about graduating in 2009 and there's an economic recession and oh my goodness, what am I going to do? But that was really powerful to me to have, okay, it can be as simple as one big idea. And another really important moment that I had at Mount Holyoke was studying the Rwandan genocide. And it was the first thing that I read about that really didn't feel like homework. And so that was my one big idea. I'm going to go to Rwanda. And so there was a small side step to Ohio for a year where I was an AmeriCorps VISTA and getting some skills. And then I got on a plane and I went to Rwanda. And I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to do that without, yeah, being in this environment for four years and having my confidence nurtured and inspired by, you know, all the great professors. We have access to all the strong women that we get to see all the other strong leaders that we get to witness. And so another thing that Mount Holyoke helped me was with the can do attitude. And so I was in Rwanda. I knew I wanted to do human rights research. I heard of a human rights researcher that was running a small nonprofit. And I emailed her until she met with me as a multiple email. Yes, multiple emails, persistence is a key to life, I think in general, but definitely to getting to where you want to be. And I really wanted to work with her. And finally, she met with me and she hired me. And it was an amazing year of talking to survivors of the Rwandan genocide, collecting their stories, but also talking to perpetrators and, you know, helping her write reports and, yeah, really documenting this historical event that so transformed the world and so transformed the field of human rights. And from that experience, I knew, okay, I really have some skills from Mount Holyoke, writing, reading, speaking. But I want to have something a bit more. And so I went to law school. And then when I was getting ready to graduate from law school, the same person I worked for in Rwanda was starting a justice project in Somaliland. And she said, what are you doing after graduation? And I said, oh, I don't know. I'm struggling this and that. And she said, come to Somaliland for six months. And so I did that. And it was only supposed to be for six months. But that's kind of how life goes. Sometimes you get there and the issues were so engrossing. You know, it wasn't high level human rights. It's really down in the trenches. Working in the legal system in Somaliland, which is really underdeveloped and, you know, questioning how do we promote human rights in this type of environment? And I'm still there since 2015. Eight years later. Eight years later. Yeah. It was only supposed to be for six months, but eight years later. And yeah, I think a lot of it is it wasn't the straightforward path. It was not the straightforward path from out of law school either. All my friends in law school did not do what I did. And I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to take that leap if it wasn't for coming to Mount Holyoke. And yeah, getting inspired here. So, you know, in your bio, it says you did law school, but then also there is this degree from International Human Rights Law from the University of Oxford. Yeah. So when did that happen? I went to Oxford. So it's a degree from Oxford that is set up to for students who are also working. So it's meant to take people who are in different fields where human rights are an issue and give them an opportunity to do a master's degree. So it was in 2016 and 2017. So while you were in Somaliland. While I was in Somaliland, yeah, I was writing an essay on universal jurisdiction in Somaliland while I was also doing other things. So but it was brilliant because I could think of these really high level issues, right? What are universal human rights? What is universal jurisdiction, but really also be in the trenches and say, OK, how do we apply these lessons to people's everyday lives? Yeah. So yeah. So so I so for the benefit of the audience, I've had a chance, of course, to talk a little bit to Caitlin. So I know the answer to the question I'm about to ask, but I think it's important for our audience to know more about exactly what you're doing in Somaliland. So it's about juvenile justice. But what does that mean in the context of Somaliland? Yeah. So Somaliland is, as I mentioned before, an autonomous state in Somalia. And because it's an autonomous state, it functions like its own country. And so it has a legal system. And it was a British protectorate. So it has a largely British legal system. But it's one of the most underdeveloped areas of the world. They had a very brutal civil war in the late 80s, early 90s. So they, you know, really struggle with education and, yeah, basically everything about development of a country. And so when I went there, you know, a lot of, and this is what we were doing in the beginning when I in 2015, when I got to Somaliland, people are talking thinking about these issues in a really high level, right? The United Nations is there. They're thinking, what structures do we need to put in place? What policies do we need to put in place? But no one is talking about how to actually do the work and how to implement these rights for children in particular. But so through my work, we were getting closer and closer to the people closer and closer to the issues working in prisons. And one of the benefits in Somaliland, there is a pretty strong legal framework. There is a juvenile justice law that implements international human rights. And makes it local law. And so in 2020, one of my colleagues and I said, wait, but there's still a lot of juveniles in prison who shouldn't be here for a variety of reasons. And we're lawyers, we have something we can do with this. And so we started, you know, doing courtroom advocacy, just like you would think about it in the US. And that in the Somaliland context is pretty radical. So yeah, I mean, we're doing criminal justice. But at the end of the day, we're also doing human rights, right? So, because it's a law in Somaliland to be imprisoned as a last resort as a child, we can go in the courtroom and litigate that and either get children released, or get their prison sentences reduced. So what we say that we're doing is putting human rights in action. Because I think that's right now on my journey where I've gotten to where a lot of what we think of human rights can be policy, more high level. But at the end of the day, if it's not changing people's lives, then it's not very helpful. So yeah, that's what we're doing at CLDC. We're we're trying to, you know, provide legal aid to children who can't afford lawyers, which is most people in the criminal justice system in Somaliland, and we're implementing human rights in the process. Yeah. So when you first arrived in Somaliland, I'm imagining, did you save yourself? What am I doing here? I mean, you know, when you describe it as a place that is still so underdeveloped? Yeah, I think it was a big shock going to Somaliland, especially as a woman. So it's a Muslim majority society. And so when I'm there, I have to cover where my hair in a very nice turban and wear long dresses. And so for me, I had been to other parts of Africa that were also underdeveloped. But being in a society that is so drastically different than my own, and especially as a woman in a traditional society and what that entails, but also trying to affect change in the society. So it was a big challenge. You know, you're trying to struggle with work and try to figure out what you're doing with work and, you know, get all the normal work things done. But at the same time, you're trying to learn, okay, how do I exist in this environment? And how do I make an impact in this environment while also taking care of myself? Which is not always a straightforward answer in Somaliland. But it's been an exciting journey. Yes. So there's a question that I ask everyone who is part of my series here, this launching leadership series. And it has to do with what it means to be authentically bold. I made reference to I read an interview by Sheila Marcelo, who is a Mount Holyoke alum, very successful entrepreneur. And she talked about how when she first started her company, which some of you may have heard of, it's called care.com. And she started that company and no longer runs that she sold it. But when she got started, she had this idea that people needed help finding caregivers for their children, for their elderly parents. And she would go to see people who might invest in their company. And most of those people were men. And they often may be wondered, you know, what are you doing here? And what do you know? And, you know, she had to assert herself in a kind of way. And she said she learned to assert herself with authentic boldness. And I love her definition of that. She says, when you bring your truest self to the table, you are able to be bold in your own authenticity. And I think there's a lot of evidence at listening to your stories, a lot of boldness in it, right? And so my question to you is how did your Mount Holyoke experience really help you find or deepen that sense of authentic boldness? No, that's a great, great question. And I think in three ways. But the first way is another Professor Mary Venda story, Gender Studies 101, my first semester, she took us out to Mary Lyon's grave, and she told us to take up space. And literally, we had to do this in the middle of campus. And, you know, as an 18 year old, that was, huh, I don't know if I want to be in the middle of campus doing this around all my peers. But it was really an inspiring lesson that it is okay to take up space, whether that's intellectually or physically, right? And, and I think that's a lesson that I've carried through my whole life so far, right? Right now in Somaliland, it is most of the time, males, right? It's a very traditional society. And so I have to be confident in myself to take up space in that environment. So that was a really strong lesson here, right off the bat, within my first couple of weeks, doing that. And that's really stuck, stuck with me, that I shouldn't be afraid to take up space. The other lesson that I learned here is to interrogate my own ideas. So I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, in a fairly traditional environment, I would never trade my childhood for anything. It was wonderful. But my mom, who's here today, she's saved some of my high school things. And I had this English teacher who had us write down 18 things we fiercely believe in. And that I think was my junior year of high school. And I've read that recently. And I was like, horrified. Wow, how interesting. I mean, we're all products of our environment. But I think one thing that's really unique about Mount Holyoke is it's a safe space to really question, well, why do I think that? Where is that idea coming from? And I think that's something that is really important, has been important throughout my whole career, right? So when you think about advancing human rights, well, why do I think that that is a good thing to do in this context? Why am I as someone who identifies as a white female, going to an African country to advance human rights? Right? How do I do that in a way that is not just about me that empowers everyone that I'm working with? Right? So I think, you know, for me, being authentically bold, it's also being self aware of where I come from, where my ideas come from, hearing other people's ideas, like my co founder, Idris, he has really influenced me a lot. He's a Somalilander. He's born in Somaliland, trained as a lawyer in Somaliland. And in Somaliland, they have three types of law, they have statutory law like we would think about, right? They have Sharia law, and they have customary law, right? And that customary law is through the clans, right? It's informal law. And I thought flying in as a US trained lawyer, no good, no good, we can't have that. We have to, if we're going to develop Somaliland, we have to be, you know, formalized law. He has changed my ideas radically. We use customary law all the time to keep kids ab jail. So I think it's being aware of yourself and questioning your own ideas is one thing that I really learned here. But the last thing I would add to be authentically bold, another thing I learned at Mount Holyoke is trusting my own ideas. I wouldn't say I was very confident academically when I came here, or, you know, confident in what I had to say. But over the four years I was here, yeah, that was really nurtured. And similar to, you know, the example of the loan that you gave going into look for funders and having, you know, male faces looking back, like, why are you here? You really have to trust yourself. You know, I really had to trust myself when I got on the plane to Rwanda. I really had to trust myself when I got on the plane to Somaliland. And I really had to trust myself when we decided to set up the Children's Legal Defense Center. So it's myself and Idris, who's Somaliland lawyer, but I'm the one responsible for bringing in the money that ultimately makes things happen. And that's a huge responsibility. And sometimes it's really scary. And a lot of it is just about trusting, yeah, what we're doing is a good idea. And what we're doing is necessary. And will help people, but it could also shape a legal system. So I think in, yeah, in my journey, learning to trust myself, interrogate my own ideas, where they come from, and not be afraid to take up space. And that's all about Halyok. Yeah. Those are really three great ideas to share with this audience. And I'm just curious, I'm just going to ask, do we have seniors in the room? I'm imagining we do. Yes. Okay. That's fabulous. Yeah. Well, so having said that, you know, I'm going to take you back a little bit, right? So it's your senior year. And as you said, you didn't go straight to law school or Rwanda, you started out in AmeriCorps in Ohio. Tell us about that. Yeah. So yeah, graduating in 2009 was a really difficult time, right? The economic recession, I was living in, I think, North Rocky at the time. And I can remember sitting in my dorm room, applying, applying, applying, applying. And I really knew that I didn't want to go straight to grad school. That was because I was a little unclear as to what I wanted to do. I thought probably I would eventually go to some sort of grad school, but it wasn't clear enough yet in my mind. And I also had good advice from Professor Penny Gill, don't go to law school unless you are certain, because it's going to be very difficult. So I thought, okay, I'm going, I'm going to work for a while and get out into the world and see things. And I knew I wanted to do service, right? Another thing that Mount Hoyoke inspires in its students. And I felt, okay, AmeriCorps is a good option. I can get some skills, I can get back to the U.S. And then during that year, I can set my sites on Rwanda and how to set that up. It also helped that my best friend who is also a Mount Hoyoke grad was also doing AmeriCorps. But it turned out to be a brilliant thing. I had a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful boss, Marcia Jones, who I'm still in contact with. And, you know, another strong woman who's leading. And, yeah, she was really what I needed at that time. And that's how I got to Ohio. And then Rwanda, yeah. Okay, yeah. So I know that there are questions in the audience. I'm going to pause here and see what questions come forward. Because I can only imagine there are lots of questions. None for my parents, please. They can question me after. Yes. As they soon to be AmeriCorps service member, what did your service entail? So I was working at a community college in Ohio doing service learning. So it was a lot about creating service opportunities for students. It helped me realize that I didn't want to go into education, which I didn't really think, but it was just a great opportunity at the right time out. So yeah, that's what I did. I worked at a local community college. Yeah. Do you know what you're going to be doing? Yes, I'll be in Boston with an organization that does in school writing classes and school tutoring. Okay, that's wonderful. Is that City Year? No, 8 to 6. Okay, cool. Very cool. Well, AmeriCorps is great. I hope you had a great experience. Thank you. Other questions? It's okay, Mom, you're a lot. Go ahead, go for it. No question. But, you know, we're so proud of Caitlyn. She says rule, but sometimes I don't think people really understand how rule she was. I mean, we have a town of 700 people, maybe, and it's in the middle of Pennsylvania, you know, and all three of our kids, they're just worldwide. And it's just amazing to us that Caitlyn first came to Mount Holyoke and got the great education that she did, but then to go on and do what she's done, you know, and like she said, I think Mount Holyoke really gave her the shot in the arm to pursue that, you know, and then like she just had a heart for Africa when she graduated. And I went over to see her in Rwanda, and it was just, I was just amazed at what she did coming from this little tiny town, graduating class of what? 2009? 2009? No, I mean, in Sullivan County. 2005. Yeah, but how many? How many students? Oh, how many students? I don't know, 30? But yeah, it's pretty amazing that she's done what she has. And she wouldn't have done that without first coming here. Thanks, mom. Is it testimony? My number one fan. Yes. Yes. I would assume that you have to have someone of an adventurous spirit to kind of go from rural Pennsylvania to ending up in Rwanda and in Somaliland, but was that something that you felt you always had and was awakened here at Mount Holyoke? Or was that something that you didn't even know that you had until you were here? I think maybe it's something I didn't know that I had. And I'm not sure. I think it's also a question of whether I have that now. I think it would be maybe strong will. Yeah, and I think again, coming to Mount Holyoke broadened my view, right, and and really gave me a bigger picture of the issues in the world and what I could do about it. And yeah, maybe it's a bit adventurous. But I think at the end of the day, yeah, it's, you know, a lot of a lot of I think being successful in life just generally is about persistence. And so I think, yeah, the strong will kind of sometimes I just want to stay in one place and not go anywhere. But it's been a really great experience. And yeah, thanks to Mount Holyoke, honestly. Yes. So one of the things I like most about Mount Holyoke is the diverse community. Yeah, like I just sit in the dining table that I hear stories from like all over the world. So I was wondering if that was also part of the your Mount Holyoke experience that helped you? Like, I'm just curious if you have any friends from Africa, but just like anyone who like any connections that yeah, yeah, definitely. I, you know, growing up in rural Pennsylvania, there I think there was one person of color and he was adopted. So yeah, it was a really big eye opening experience in a lot of ways. And yeah, meeting people from all over the world, right? I think one thing that really impressed me when I came to campus is, you know, the markers in the middle of campus that say this, you know, across is this minute kilometers away or Pretoria. And it's just so yeah, it opens up your mind a lot. And I think helped me at that time. Maybe see things from other people's perspectives. Right? Whether they're from urban America, or whether they're from across. Yeah, getting getting to be in an intellectual environment with all sorts of people, but also social environment. So yeah, it was really inspiring and I think encouraging. Yeah, it's Well, and you mentioned, actually, you told me and I don't remember if it came up in our conversation, that your first international experience was to Ghana. Yeah, yeah, that was my summer of sophomore year. Yeah, that was my first time abroad. And yeah, by that time, I had studied, I think, taken a class with Holly Hansen and African Studies. And I had my first year similar seminar was called Globalization and it's discontent. So yeah, pretty quickly being at not like I was looking outside of America, outside of the US. And yeah, there was just something about the African continent that I wanted to explore more. And so yeah, got myself an opportunity to go to a crawl and went there. And then it was also after Hurricane Katrina at that time. So my best friend was volunteering in New Orleans. So then I went down to New Orleans for a while and was with her. And so those were all really formative experiences. And again, and I'm not just saying this to sell Mount Holyoke, or can, you know, encourage you for being here. I'm not sure I would have done that without Mount Holyoke because it's, yeah, it's this international environment that you're talking about. But it's also an interesting environment where everybody's driven, right? Like, I think it was an interesting idea to go and do summer internships or, you know, travel during that time and or go and volunteer somewhere. So that was also really informative for me and pushed me outside of my comfort zone because growing up, what I did in the summer was show horses. And that's what got me interested in Mount Holyoke. The equestrian team. But then once I got here, things really started changing for me. The world started opening up. As it turns out, you didn't ride horses. No, I did for my gym credit for my, I did. But yeah, it didn't end up being on the team. And, you know, I think that's an interesting experience because that was really what I had been working towards. And I got here and I tried out for the team and I didn't make it. I made it my second time. But then I was like, wait, this isn't what I wanted. And so it was, you know, a time when I had to say, well, if horses are not my identity, what I'm about, what is, right? And again, that service oriented mindset is what I picked up on. I know that you don't spend all your time in Somaliland. So tell us about where you spend the rest of your time. Yeah. So I split my time between Somaliland and Sweden a little over a year ago. I met a wonderful man who was there working for the United Nations. He happens to be Swedish. I was looking for a place where I could split my time. I was also looking forward to having a little bit more, you know, the coveted balance in life. I had been completely career focused until that point, which I'm happy for. But I think at the end of the day, and one of my professors at Oxford said this, you know, life is short. It's really wonderful to be doing all of these things. But there's other parts of life. And so I'm lucky that he's really supportive of me not giving up my career. I don't want him to give up his career. So when I'm not in Somaliland, I'm in Sweden. So just couldn't get enough of the snow when I was in Sweden. So I had to get more. And while we're delighted that your friend, Joseph is here with us. So welcome to Mount Holyoke. And as you think about your role, one of the things that there's a lot about your situation that seems unique, you know, I'm imagining most of the students sitting here are not going to join you in Somaliland. But I don't want to close out that opportunity. But they might be thinking about leading a not for profit organization, they might be thinking about, you know, working for an NGO, any number of things. You are the executive director, which means you are not that different from me. As a president of a not for profit organization known in this case as Mount Holyoke College, fundraising is an important part of what you do. Talk a little bit about that. So fundraising, yes, is, I think at the end of the day, when you're trying to affect change in the world, positive change, you realize you need money to do that. When I went to law school, I never thought I would end up fundraising. But, you know, in 2020, when we founded the Children's Legal Defense Center, we had this great idea that we were really passionate and confident about. And we needed money behind that to make it viable, right? So we're providing free legal services and legal aid to our clients because they can't afford lawyers. So we have to be able to fundraise to do that ourselves. And we started at Super Grassroots. I started a GoFundMe, right? We raised the initial seed money from GoFundMe. And then from that, we were able to hire a small team, get enough of a track record. And then now we're funded by UNICEF. And we also raised donations in the US. And I think if I'm being honest, that's probably the part of my work now that pushes me out of my comfort zone the most, right? I loved being at Mount Holyoke in the library. I, you know, still in my job, do a lot of writing. We're going to be doing a legal commentary on the juvenile justice law in Smolliland. And I put that in our budget specifically so I could write it and still do that soft work. But it's also really sometimes exciting, even though it's still challenging to go out into the world and say, this is an issue. This is why you should care about it. And please support us. Which, yeah, can be challenging, but also really rewarding. So it's been a new set of skills I've had to learn. And a lot of it is good writing, which you get here at Mount Holyoke. A lot of it is good speaking, which you get here at Mount Holyoke and identifying an issue and trying to find a solution to it and getting other people behind it. Yeah. So it's been an adventure, the fundraising part. You started in 2020. Yes. Which was certainly a pivotal year. You know, COVID peaking in 2020. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, you know, sort of a new organization in the middle of a pandemic. Yeah, it was an adventure. So I think one thing, you know, COVID really shook up a lot of the world, obviously, right? That's a straightforward, obviously, you know, change things for a lot of people. And pre COVID, I was at another local NGO in Somaliland, the Horizon Institute. And so was my colleague, Idris. And a big thing that was also a nonprofit. So it was donor funded. And it was funded by the UK government. And when COVID hit, their funding priorities changed. So our program stopped. And the leadership of that nonprofit decided to wrap up. But for us, for Idris and myself, we saw that as an opportunity. We still had, at that time, we were taking on clients through a paralegal project. So we weren't providing them legal representation, but we were helping them navigate the criminal justice system. And yes, it was a pandemic, but they were still in prison. So we still saw, you know, the issue was still alive, even though things in the world were changing. So I at the beginning of the pandemic was in Somaliland. And then I went home to Pennsylvania to my parents. But Idris and I kept in touch. And then in November 2020, we said, we're gonna do this. And so I was in my childhood bedroom, furiously fundraising, furiously putting strategies together. Idris was in the courtroom, trying to get cases, trying to get energy behind it. And we just did it. And we came up with an initial six month plan. We self funded it for six months and said, okay, for six months, we're willing to put this money behind it. You know, we will try to raise money during this six months, we'll try to do this during the six months. And it just kind of snowballed. You know, there weren't many restrictions in Somaliland at that time, so he could move around, he could go to court. And it, you know, our instincts were right, it was a real need. There's not a lot of legal services in Somaliland, and there's not a lot of professionalized lawyers. So people are really looking for good lawyers, especially parents of children who are in prison. That's a really critical time, if you're in that situation. And so, yeah, we had endless clients, we still do. We have parents knocking at our door all the time, asking for a legal aid. And so yeah, it was a tough time to do it. But it was, I think, sometimes when an issue arises, and you have an idea that'll work, and then you have people who support you, it just kind of moves forward. So but there were a lot of challenges. It was challenging then to travel back to Somaliland during the pandemic. And all of that entailed, you know, getting tests, getting into Somaliland was a bit tricky. But yeah, we just pushed through. I think at that point, nothing was going to stop us. We're feeling very passionate. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, great. You explained to me a little bit earlier when we were backstage, so to speak, about why there are so many young people in prison in Somaliland. I think it might be helpful to this audience to know a little bit more about, you know, why would a 12 year old be in jail? Yeah. So in so Somaliland, it's part of Somalia, which is one of the least developed areas of the world. So at the end of the day, there's not a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of for profit universities that are pumping out people with degrees, not a lot of skills. There's no very limited jobs to speak of. So there is a large part of the society, mainly teenage boys, who don't have much to do, right? Teenage girls are very busy. It's a very traditional society. They are at home cleaning, cooking, helping take care of the kids. But teenage boys don't really have much to do. And they end up on the streets, especially in the capital of Paragasa in groups, looking for something to do. And one of the main offenses that we defend is mobile phone theft. So they will go up to someone steal their phone. And in Somaliland, like in the US, they're taking a very tough on crime approach. Well, the way that we deal with these boys who are stealing phones is to put them in prison. And to go to prison in Somaliland, there is no juvenile system, separate system to speak of. You're with adults in a concrete cell, right? Education, very limited nutritious food. So it's it's a lot of social factors that drive it, right? So President Tatum mentioned a 12 year old being in prison. So in Somaliland, the law is pretty good. You have to be 15 before you can be prosecuted by the criminal justice system. But there's no documentation of age. So someone who is arrested may say he's 12. But the police officer, the resting police officer will say no, you're 15, and you're of age to prosecute. And we as defense lawyers have very little evidence to prove otherwise, other than the parents coming in, you know, they use the crown in Somaliland swearing on the crown that this is my child's age. But it's nothing there's no records kept systematically. So it's hard to to prove that, right? So there there's a lot of social factors pushing it there. They, as I mentioned before, had a very brutal civil war in the late 80s, early 90s. And it decimated Somaliland, including the education system, right? So maybe you're in school, but the education is not very good. Right? So a lot of our clients were in school and then dropped out because either the parents can't afford the fees, or the school doesn't feel worthwhile. You know, another issue is, you know, you've all heard, I'm sure, of migrants from Africa trying to make it to Europe, going up through Sudan and into Libya, a lot of them are Somalis. And it all comes down to not feeling hope, right? I mean, we're so lucky, we're here at Mount Holyoke, it's this wonderful place in the world where we can feel safe, we can explore intellectually, we can explore, you know, question our own assumptions and think about how we're going to impact the world. And, you know, future is generally bright. We have an opportunity, even if it might not be the opportunity, we really, really want it. At least it's an opportunity. And in Somaliland, they don't have that, necessarily. Or they do a small amount of people. So a lot of our clients, our teenage boys, mainly 17, who don't have engagement in life that they need. And so then they end up in the criminal justice system. So a lot of social factors. Yes. I have two questions. One is about whether you have kept track of folks that you have helped to earn their release. But another is, maybe, with just a little bit of background. So one of the things that I really enjoyed learning recently is that I'm a Holyoke alum, Catherine Higgs Melton, class of 1964, as the founder of AmeriCorps. Oh, yes. And that when I did that, why didn't they tell me that? When I met her just a couple of months ago on the West Coast, she mentioned to me that Mary Lyon was her inspiration for the concept of service learning, and that she really brought, you know, Mount Holyoke and Mary Lyon as inspiration into that. And I heard you say, you know, that you got this inspiration and you always come back to Mary Lyon. And I really appreciate that, especially since tomorrow I'll be giving you the Mary Lyon Award. And I wonder what the Mary Lyon Award means to you. Great question. Great question. So let me answer the first one about whether we track our clients. Not formally, there are some clients that we go back and visit. But kind of once we get a result in a case, we have to move on to the next case, because there's there's so many people who need a lawyer in Somaliland. But I think probably your question is asking, how do they do once they're released? So we have a very small rate of recidivism. So we do track kids who get back in the system and who we have represented twice, three times. And that is less than 5% of our clients. But the the kids who do well are the kids who have good parents and good family who want to see them do well. Unfortunately, a small amount of our clients are street children. So in Somaliland you can be considered an orphan if you don't have a father. If you have a mother, hopefully she'll help you, but you might, you know, live on just because of the traditional society, you will be considered an orphan in that situation, and may not have a home and be housed, or you quite a few of our clients. So Somaliland is on the border with Ethiopia. And children from Ethiopia come to Somaliland looking to be domestic servants as as awful as that sounds, and they can end up in the criminal justice system. And they too are unhoused, right? They're just children coming from Ethiopia by themselves, and living on the street. And so those are the clients that you can get them released. But you don't have the bigger answer. There's no system of social services. UNICEF has done what they can to try to promote the government to have some basic social services. There is a house for children who are on the street, but it's temporary and limited. And so the kids that we have kept in contact with and gone to visit and checked in on that are doing well. They have parents, and they are aunts and uncles who are actively trying to keep the children engaged while pushing them to go to school, or pushing them to go to learn a trade. So a lot of it, especially in the Somali context is about your family unit. So if you have a strong family unit, you have more hope. But if you're one of the few children who doesn't have that, there's no government system, social system to catch you. So it can be really hard because you also in this work learn your limits of the impact that you can have. Right? We can do some really good defense lawyering. And we can really win some good cases. But we can't change the whole problem. So sometimes it can be really humbling. And sometimes, yeah, there are some kids who you can release, you're not sure what's going to happen to them. So it can be a bit uplifting, but also challenging. And so to your second question, what does it mean to get the Mary Lyon Award? It's really, it's really, it feels really important. It feels really motivating. I got an email from some of the alumni association, it wasn't quite clear. And she's like, I really need to talk to you. And I'm like, Oh, gosh, why? What are you going to ask? And it was, yeah, really touching. When I came here with my dad, who's with me today, when we were coming for accepted students, he tells this story a lot that we were sitting in the green by Mary Lyons grave, talking about why I wanted to come to Mount Holyoke. And I told him, it just feels inspiring. I've never been to a place like this. And, you know, then we talked about how we would financially make that happen. And lucky for me, I have a really supportive father who made it happen for me. And so from the very beginning, she's been a figure for me here. And yeah, you know, such an articulate woman in such a brave woman. And, you know, the quote of you know, that she implored students to go where no one else will go do what no one else will do. Sometimes I wake up in the morning and I'm like, What am I doing? I'm far away from my family. I'm in a culture that is drastically different from my own, where I often feel uncomfortable. And sometimes I feel unsafe. You know, what, what am I doing? Or, but then I think it's that moment to reflect on Mary Lyon and think about, Wow, what she did at that time, and how it radically change education for women in America, and then the world, right? Like it's so it gives a lot of perspective. And to be invited back and given a word in her name is something I greatly treasure and something that I will use as motivation in the times when I'm feeling the most discouraged. So I'm really grateful. Well, it's a delight that you are here and able to share your reflections as it relates to that. With this audience, I am wondering if we have time maybe for a couple more questions. So I want to give our students that opportunity. Yes. When you talked about how you were kind of not as confident and some of like your what when you would speak and make your academics when you first started at not only how like the environment here really like allowed you to grow and become like a more confident person. That was that I like really identify with that sentiment. I'm a senior and I feel like my time at Mount Holyoke has been really important in like helping me become someone who feels like I can go into a room and like make my case and, you know, be successful. But I think something that I guess I'm apprehensive about with leaving Mount Holyoke is part of why I feel like I have that sense of confidence is because like, this is such a nurturing environment. And I feel like there's a sense that like everyone here wants everyone to succeed. And in the real world, it's not always like that. So I'm wondering, I guess, like, what kind of advice do you have? Or like, how do you remain confident, kind of persevere, remain persistent, even when you find yourself in settings that aren't as conducive to that as Mount Holyoke is? That is, that is a really, I think important question. Because yeah, I think we're in a very unique environment here that is encouraging and saying, yeah, do it, do it, get out there, get out there. And a lot of times when you're out there, people will say, that's not possible. You can't do that, do this, or do that, or. And I think, for me, what has been really important to maintaining my confidence or maintaining my persistence is having a really good support network. My parents have been woken up in the middle of the night to all sorts of phone calls for me. But also my support network from Mount Holyoke, my best friend for life, Matt here at Mount Holyoke. I'll never forget how we met. We were in a small group session at orientation. And she said, growing up, she showed goats at 4h and I showed horses. And I was like, this is going to be my friend. And then we were in Gender Studies 101 with Mary Renda and the rest is history. But that relationship has also been really pivotal for me. When I was deciding to set up the Children's Legal Defense Center, I spent hours on the phone with Sarah. And her giving me that Mount Holyoke, you can do this if you want to is really, really important. And so I think not being afraid to lean on the people around me is so critical. Because, yeah, it can be very intimidating world. But another thing as I get further in my career, that I'm learning is, yeah, this is an amazing environment. But someone is creating this environment for us, right? It's, you know, people think, how do I make change? How do I do all this in the world? Well, it's humans who are creating all of this. So you can create it. And one thing that I really tried to do as a leader is create that environment for my team. So you know, Somaliland again is a traditional environment, usually you listen to the boss. That's it. And one thing that I've really tried to do in my position is nurture an environment where, yeah, they can come back in question. Is this really what we should be doing on this case or put their own ideas forward? So I think, you know, if I was in your position and getting ready to, you know, graduate, I would want someone to tell me, you know, remember that you have this great network with you wherever you go, right? I'm sure that you have formed friendships here, either with, you know, your friends around you, or, you know, academic connections with your professors, that will always be there, even if you're not here on campus. You know, Mountain Day is still a special day for me every year. And a time to reconnect with my colleagues. But I think it's also remembering you have the power to create that space for yourself and for others. Which I think is really, really important. When you're thinking about going into your career. Yeah, great. And you announce. Yes, I'm already a big fan of your work. Once again, I'm also a senior and I also do very protected by the environment that I'm currently in right now. And I feel like this four years has been a lot to me. But then again, we're we're just like in this protected environment. And while we feel safe around here, the outside world might not be the same. And so I was wondering, since you mentioned that sometimes your work can be very dangerous sometimes, or like relatively so. Yeah. And so I was wondering if you can share some experiences that you have that might put you in danger and solution? Yeah. And so in Somaliland, in particular, it can be an unstable political environment. Currently, in part of the country, there's an ongoing conflict arm conflict. You know, it's also, you know, a Muslim majority country where others a lot of sentiments of not liking what they consider Westerners. Right. So what I represent as a white American woman. So we're going into prisons in Somaliland, right? A lot of times we're in the yard with the prisoners. And so there's a lot of people around me who are interested in needing help, which can create some challenging situations. And kind of like my previous question, the most important thing to mitigate that is relationships. So, you know, when I'm on the ground, knowing of course, the security situation that is there. But also, you know, having a very close working relationship with my colleagues, other people in my environment that I can turn to and ask for help. But at the end of the day, it's also trusting yourself, right? Like your gut will tell you if it's not a good situation to be in if you need to leave. So but at the end of the day, it's always been my friends who have been my greatest support and friends I met here at Mount Holyoke, but also in Somaliland. Yeah, we didn't have a question from this side of the room. I just want to say, so I want to give this side of the room an opportunity. We had one at the beginning. Okay, yeah. So at the beginning of the talk, you talked about how graduating from Mount Holyoke, you thought you might want to go to grad school, but you weren't sure exactly what way you were headed yet. Yeah. So do you have advice for people who are maybe on the brink of sort of like an unknown path, like general interest and ideas, but not exactly sure where they're headed after graduation? Yeah, definitely. I think my basic advice for anyone who's graduating is not be afraid to get things wrong and change course, right? It's can feel when you're graduating that you need this like solid plan and it has to be a really ambitious plan and a really impressive plan. And I'm going to go get my PhD and I'm going to do all these things and it doesn't necessarily have to be that I think I put a lot of pressure that type of pressure on myself. But the most interesting experiences I've had in the most transformative are the ones where I didn't follow what everyone else expected of me. And I followed my own desires, what I wanted, right? When I was graduating law school, the law school did not necessarily want me to run off to small island. They wanted me to stay and do a clerkship. And that would have been a bit more prestigious in their eyes and would have put the law school in better light. But that's not what I wanted. So, but I didn't necessarily know what I wanted until I tried things, right? I think with grad school, in particular, someone's thinking of going to law school, it's a really big commitment, financially, but also a personal commitment. So, if you can give yourself time to maybe experience something different, that will inform that, then all the better. You know, I had a great time in AmeriCorps. I learned a lot, you know, about our own issues in America, right? About inequality here and how do we address that through education? And, you know, going from Mount Hyang, such an elite prestigious school to working in a community college, how do we create an environment where everyone gets a quality education? I don't regret doing that. And then, you know, going to Rwanda, it gave me a much broader understanding of where the law can fit into the world when I went into law school. If I had gone straight from graduation here to law school, while that's not necessarily a bad thing, and I know people who have done that, I wouldn't have had that life experience that would have just then informed why I was doing the graduate work and what I wanted to use it for in the type of graduate work. If I had listened to my dad, I probably would have decided on law school a long time ago, a lot sooner. But I had to get there myself. And I think it's okay to give yourself the time to do that, even though there's a lot of pressure to the contrary. So I hope that answers your question. Yeah, and good luck. Well, with that, I think we need to bring this conversation to a close. But the good news is, we are all going to have an opportunity to have some food and refreshments together and lots of time for one on one conversations. I'm sure. So thank you. Please join me in thanking Caitlin. And congratulations again on your Mary Lyon Award. Thank you. Thank you so much. It really means a lot. And thanks for inviting me here today. It's been our pleasure. So thank you all for being here and your great questions. And please feel free to linger and join us for dinner and spend some time. Yeah, and maybe even take a selfie or two. Sure. Yeah, Caitlin. Yeah, we didn't have iPhones when I was here. I don't know. Or at least I didn't have one then. Yes, yeah. Happy to talk more to fabulous.