 Hello and welcome to the new season of the Coaching Manual podcast hosted by me Danny Mills Today, I'm joined by former Brentford Glasgow Rangers Nottingham Forest manager Mark Warburton Mark has a background in professional football going back to his playing days in the late 70s and apprentice at Leicester City And the 80s as a semi-pro at Enfield and Boreham Wood with the highlights been an FA trophy and a conference title In this episode, we'll be talking about some of Mark's experiences both as a player and as a manager What makes his football journey quite unique? So Mark, thanks for coming on Welcome to the TCM podcast. I mean, it's really interesting for us so far I've interviewed John Greening Neil Sullivan and Without being disrespectful were were footballers turned coaches, you know, and a lot of that was about their career You've sort of gone about it a different way completely and you're the first proper coach if you like That I would say that that we've had on but if we go right back to the beginning I mean, what got you into football originally as a young kid? I was I was a young kid as we all are loving the game playing the game school Sunday teams etc. Every minute of every day, but I was lucky to be good at sports Danny So for me, it was a choice between running and football. I was very lucky that I came across Frank McClintock His son Neil was my best friend at school Frank was leaving Arsenal going to Leicester City if you're a member as a manager And I was coaching my Leicester City or train Leicester City rather from 14 15 upwards and got off of the scholarship You know apprenticeship and then accepted that so that was my route into into full-time football And from there, I mean, how difficult was it not to every kid Had those dreams obviously going to be professional playing the top level How hard is it when that didn't quite happen for you? It was difficult, but this sounds very profound for 16 17-year-old But I was working with the very famous manager jock Wallace and jock style was, you know Obviously very successful huge success in Scotland with Rangers, etc But for me, I found it quite really abrasive I didn't enjoy my football, which for me was a totally alien feeling. I'd always loved Love my sport loved everything everything about sport and for the first time in my life I found myself being put off football and thinking I want today if ever I got into the game ever going forward I would act differently and was that the environment was too fierce players were too Abrasive night the energy everything really I just found it. I don't know come across as a weak hearted So I loved the competitive side of it of all sport But I just didn't enjoy that environment that was created and as I say sounds very profound for a young guy But I thought whatever I do going forward I'm gonna work in a different environment than this and that's obviously you've taken those lessons on Into to later life in it and into your the way you coach now issue Yeah, very much so but more also a different career in the cities, you know and and even there It's about the quality of the environment that you create It has to be the environment that is conducive to people Learning and developing and that's not just football. That's whatever line of industry you're in So that was a key a very early lesson for me But one that I heated right the way through because it was while you explain you were playing semi-professional non-league football end field that you Well, not switch careers but became a currency dealer Which I suppose is a is a big shift from suddenly going from wanting to be a professional footballer So suddenly working in the market Working in the city and doing those sort of transactions. How did that come about was that? something you got through education or parents or Advice from somebody else in truth It was my mum look at an advert in the paper and it read competitive individual good with numbers that was the Very competitive and I was very fortunate to be good with numbers So it's in a natural and natural role and you have to go through it again two or three years in the bank of Getting the teas and the coffees and the sandwiches and locking up the telexies and doing all the menial jobs But learning but it was a really competitive environment and any footballer I know would love that competitive trading environment, you know big sums of money Very competitive testosterone field environment Big rewards if you did well, and if you didn't do well, you were sat I like that black and white clarity, and I really enjoyed it and I had a 20 odd years in the city with the markets getting bigger I was lucky to do quite well want to move up to the bigger banks and the bigger environments and really enjoyed that And is there a big similarity then between the two, you know working in that incredibly testosterone fueled high Pressure environment in the city obviously in banks and dealing with currency and equally in football and I've used manage now to sort of Marry the two together and bring both together and get the best out of yourself doing it that way going forward Yeah, very much so if you look at a dealing room, you know, you would sit there on a desk of 12 15 people Very competitive, and I'm assuming majority of males They were but as as you progress through the city, you know, you work in places like a IG for example a very diverse workforce talents ideas Experiences and again learn a lot from that in that environment But yeah, you're right originally early on in the in the career was very much a male dominated environment Communication was key teamwork was key long hours work ethic demanded And you had to be competitive you have to deal with adversity, you know You could work all day or work all year and lose it lose it in one hour So you had to deal with that side of it and to me that was a dressing room Walking the 12 15 guys and dressing room competitive, etc Obvious reward if you do well and if you don't do well, you pay the price accordingly So the similarities for me very very very obvious and it was a fairly easy transition to move from one mold to the other You still had a love for football while you were working in the city always always and I was very fortunate to work in Charlotte North Carolina to live and work in Chicago and travel around Asia, etc And wherever I went I would look to coach teams Whether it's an underlying goals team or a college team or a high school team just coaching Oblivious to coaching badges have no idea they even existed But just love working with young players and developing players So as I say very fortunate to do that and when I came back to the UK in early 2000 realized that actually level one two and three Existed and what you have to do. So what was the trigger for wanting to get back into full-time football and have I'll go back to I suppose where you started. I always love sport and You turn out to mean quite well You would say that 20 odd years in the city suggest you don't love sport enough But I always love sport love being outside competing coaching, etc Was it was there a moment you suddenly thought I want to go back into football. Yeah, that's what I've done Well in the city, but this is my love. This is what I want to go back to it and be successful Honestly, yes, there was a moment where I'm sitting there think I've done well done Okay for myself in the city my two young children And I really enjoyed I wanted to get do something in football But my thought process was a get myself qualified be improved my depth of knowledge I couldn't go into it without having a broader depth of knowledge and See Sam. Well, I need to be financially secure with my family. I couldn't take this sort of jump this leap of faith Have their backing without giving them the financial security. So it's getting all the Eggs in order so to speak and that came about and I just wanted to do it My son was a young boy right to go and train at Watford Money was tight at what for the time and they asked me to come and and help on a part-time basis And I found myself one day working at RBS with a huge trade coming in a huge dolly in trade coming in And I literally said hang on a second. I was in a parson drill on a bit of paper For the under 13 and that was it And I said my wife and she said I think it's time to leave and she was dead right, you know You couldn't you couldn't combine at that level. You couldn't combine both so I made the took the plunge and Spent this part of the year traveling Europe Visit the academies trying to learn more improve my knowledge all age at what worked well what didn't work well because I Wasn't comfortable going to an environment. So not full-time without that border depth of knowledge And is that the most difficult thing because obviously I'm rich. Sorry now We all know as a banker and hasn't followed the the standard path of coaching obviously has been very very successful Was that all those experience before that? Was that a hindrance or a help? Going into sort of a different Environment and the football environment especially because I know how harsh players are and and how difficult was it to get that respect from players early on there's an absolute help. That's the first question because um If you're in the city, for example, you you cold call customers you go and speak to them You get rebuffed you had to go back and why should they choose you and you have to sell yourself and the company you work for And why you would benefit them etc So in terms of the clubs I cold call clubs and I got rebuffed from the first five six seven clubs And it was a good friend that sport in lisbon who's become a good friend rather who let me come over Um and from there I ended up spending a lot of time in sport and lisbon introduced me to iax etc But to have that uh to be comfortable speaking to people To develop in relationships and to understanding that it has to be two-way and everyone must benefit That really that really helped me really helped me so I was able to take that in there and broaden that knowledge and That was very very beneficial for me Was it difficult to earn the respect of players even young players? Having not had the Sensational sort of career that we've seen some you know moving now into coaching. Is is it difficult to earn that respect? It is uh, I started in academy. So again, what players want? I'm sure you would agree They want to enjoy what they do so your sessions have to be um educational They have to be enjoyable They have to have structure to them and there has to be a clear plan in place for the for the players individually and as a team And and uh, I recognize that really early and made sure I did a lot of work to make sure that every single session was maximized In terms of earning respect when you move back towards first team players I haven't got the playing career of someone like yourself, for example So how do I counter that? Well players because I look at that and okay It's a little bit old school But someone coming in without a playing background the players would have been what does he know? You know we and we had it with sport scientists or whatever it was There's always that arrogance of players and that togetherness is like well actually If we don't really like him we can force him out on that issue. Is that difficult to overcome even with young players? So how do you earn the respect? So in terms of first team players, you know, my assistant They've made a huge respect for davie weir who has an outstanding playing career So in terms of first team players that obviously was a key question answer because davie's been done at every level But for my point of view I took the players at Brentford into the hsbc dealing I took them in there to say this is a world I come from This guy here is turning over to two and a half billion dollars a day. Not million billion dollars a day He's 28 for example, and this is the pressure. He's under and I did that for 20 years And you talked to him and suddenly realized because players are impressed not in a shallow way But they're impressed by the finance and the money and success as well and success And and you don't you've done well you competed in a completely alien world highly competitive and you've been successful So I got their attention that way And and communicating with the players putting in place bonus structures The owner at Brentford very very forward thinking very innovative And an aggressive bonus structure of the players a bit like the city if you do well We get rewarded and as a player you know that you know If every point is up for grabs every goals up for grabs and you're going to strive to be the best you can be So that that's how I got that respect and touch would it work well How did that opportunity to work at Brentford come about? Obviously you were at Watford before that? I was at Watford um in 2004 onwards. I got to a academy manager I worked with very very good people. That's a Vady Boothroyd, Malcolm Mackay, Sean Dyche Dick Bate, Keith Mincher, etc some some top people Left Watford and uh, I think Matthew made a change in the managerial front I think Andy's got left the club and I got a phone call middle of night When I come and coach the first team in the morning, I was up all night learning the players names on the internet literally But that was an opportunity and Matthew's was a privilege to work for him for the best part of five years Coach the team for six months. We were 18th in league one. I think we finished 10th I applied for the managerial job and the appointed Uwe Rosler and asked me to become Tech director, which I did for the next two years and thoroughly enjoyed that in terms of learning so much about the game and agents academy and And then when Uwe left to go to Wigan, I was offered the the job and very thankful for it Obviously Matthew, Ben and by all again, you know him far better than I do But obviously made a lot of his money by betting But he seems to be a big advocate maybe through that of statistics analysis Almost money ball to affect Do you buy into a lot of that or is that a lot of sort of smoke and mirrors when it comes to football? I learned an enormous amount from Matthew huge respect A very very smart forward thinking guy as I said But he looks at the game in a different way and as I said everything he said he can he can teach you so much about the game You know one thing Matthew always used to speak about was Never run the ball into a corner if you want it up with five to go That's the last thing you should do mathematically the stats tell you this Now 99% of every single professional player would say at five You know if you went up with five to go you won it into the corner No, and you look at it and he has the stats to back it up and everything he spoke to you about would be Supported by numbers And it is a balance. Absolutely. It's a balance. It's not all about the numbers It isn't a balance, but there's no doubt that when you have someone as astute as that You can learn so much and hopefully you can add your your experiences to the equation as well And overall you get a really strong product But were there any disagreements you had on that because we interest I spoke to Sean Daesh about that and and you know he's Very analytical and all those sort of things Maybe coming through this all similar sort of way, but actually he said sometimes It doesn't work, you know when the the wingbackers track back at he's run 70 yards And he hasn't made a tackle, but he stopped across and it doesn't show up on the stats Do you ever have to go to the owner and go? Yet, they're great, but sometimes They don't quite work because of this. No When you say money ball, I'd imagine Matthew Benham is money ball times 10 You know in the touch of the level that they work at and uh There are examples that you can highlight But in truth it's all about probability and you look at what increases the percentage of scoring goals the quality of chances that you create And the likelihood of goals, you know coming from from those chances So it's interesting you mentioned that when I spoke to Neil Sullivan, uh, and he said, you know when when they were even at Wimbledon They were very very similar and they said they were quite Advanced for their years. I said right if we get 100 crosses into the box We're gonna score 10 goals and it was simplified. So if they come off a game and said well, actually we've only put 30 crosses in we're not going to score enough goals, you know That's it I mean Matthew's team would be able to say to you that if you if Danny's got the ball when he shoots in 25 yards out The likelihood of you scoring a goal if it's gone over the stand first That aside But the likelihood of you scoring would be x percent if you then carry down and play the one two for example And you enter in the box you're now 16 yards out the likelihood is now this And it's just about the the probability of you actually scoring from all all of what has been done Possession's irrelevant. You can have 95 percent possession too relevant if you're not attacking and creating chances Um, so you learn as I say you go back to Matthew. I learned an awful lot in that period Um, and as I say we had some talented teams have talented players rather And we had a really good run and just missed out on the Premier League Which was unfortunate But a good crop of young players who benefited from a variety of experiences and not not the least obviously Matthew's input The sporting director role in England especially is is relatively new, you know, we had a few where it was X managers getting involved and then actually they wanted the managerial job with one of the head coaches role Is that changing now is is the technical director role becoming unique On its own rather than just an ex an ex manager being a friend of the owner or somebody like that I think it's getting far more fine-tuned any I think it's a crucial role for any club Obviously the high levels of championship and the Premier League especially Um, obviously because of the budget constraints at the smaller clubs But I think it's a position which can can continues to grow quite rapidly I think the responsibilities will be clarified going forward I think at the moment even the title of technical director sport and director head of football business What really is the title? What are the roles of responsibilities associated with it? What comes under your command the lines of communication, etc All of these key points are being clarified almost by the week within the various clubs I think it's a position that will assume so much significance Going forward but above all else that that position has to have an outstanding relationship with the manager If you're the technical director and I'm the manager we've got to get on And I think that's been the problem in the past, isn't it where that in the early days in England Especially the the technical director there was competition between the head coach And it was like well actually as soon as he has a bad spell I'll have the managerial role. It's about trust. It's about respect and honesty And I think any good manager any good coach will want to have clear opinion He doesn't want a yes man there but it's how you deliver that opinion And he needs to know that the technical director has always got his best interests at heart And that's really important if you're the go-between for example putting a manager on the board You know the quality of your communication the clarity of message All of these aspects the manager has to know that you've got his back all times Which would you prefer moving forward Technical director head coach I think that for me personally and probably I've been very fortunate to manage it some some big clubs Very much enjoyed it. You've had some success promotions and playoffs, etc I I just want a job personally whereby you can be successful and that sounds vague. So if I can clarify that I think it's important to have a job whereby you have some Some time To do the work. I think that's the key some longevity to a position I look at some managerial jobs now And you just so disheartened when you see people go in three four five months and under pressure after seven eight games It's ludicrous, but it's a game we work in now and we've got to try and work hard to find a solution to that But right now I just want a job personally where you have a chance to be successful And if you fail you put your hand up and say accordingly But I think that that one word of time is the key Danny. You're listening to the coaching manual podcast hosted by me Danny Mills Obviously after your time at Brentford you took a huge job Here in the UK, which was obviously the Glasgow Rangers job Massive opportunity I think we all see it as there's only two clubs in Scotland. Um, effectively, there's not we know that. Um, it's bigger than that But I mean the old firm your first old firm Derby, you know, everyone talks about the atmosphere Can you describe almost the week leading up to that and and then the game itself? It is it's a level of passion, which I don't see replicated down south and I'm a London boy to me Tottenham Arsenal was the biggest game of the season or the biggest game ever And then you realize that the what the old firm entails what it means to the city It literally is half and half And the build-up really is you know days and days before The actual game itself my first old firm game was a semi-final against Celtic Hampton which you won on penalties But it was a game that had everything but the atmosphere was incredible Um, but you knew you had a level of responsibility So as a manager a staff member And as a as a player you have a huge responsibility because it means so much to so many people in the city You've paid in some huge derbies But as I say I've been Glasgow so much is at stake and to win that game After where Rangers had been in the previous two or three years it meant so much to the fans. That was a a fantastic occasion You know one will stick long in the memory Um, the first league game was at parkhead 65,000 And we had a tough result there It's called two late goals But an atmosphere Brendan came over was quite unlike anything of every experience I was trying to speak to Barry Mackay who was five yards away yelling at him He couldn't hear what I was saying Such was a level of noise and it's different down south because it goes on for the full 90 minutes It just doesn't stop and again irrespective of winning losing It's a privilege to be involved in those in those type of games. It was a difficult time for Rangers How difficult was it? One to manage on the field stuff and also to manage off the field stuff as well There was an awful lot of change going on at the club at that time and a period where They hadn't been successful for for quite a few years Now the first two ranges is a magnificent football institution You know with a proud and long history as we all know At the time we went in David Nye There was nine players on the first air preseason. I think 13 had been released And literally we had a bare bones of a squad So that was the task facing us, but that's an opportunity as well So to better bring in the lights of Tavernier, Fodringham, you know, Rob Keane and Waghorn Danny Wilson, Halliday, how all these young guys majority of them all free We had the money was was that difficult Blending them into a team exceptionally quickly We've seen off managers and coaches struggle where there's a lot of signings coming over to summer Through their own choice. You had to do it through necessity Was it difficult to merge them into a team very quickly? No, because I'm not saying it in an arrogant way because we had some experience wise heads The likes of Kenny Miller and Lee Wallace who I can't speak highly enough about those two guys by the way To outstanding pros But to get young guys in we wanted people who are hungry and enthusiastic and keen to learn And the lights of Tavernier we saw rather than his quality of delivery and his athleticism, for example Keane and the proven championship center half was Fodringham a 170-yard game for Swindon So we knew we had experience we had players who liked to play football And we had players who wanted the ball at their feet and that's what we were after So that that hunger passion enthusiasm and a desire to desire to learn and improve and we got that as I say Mentored by the wise old heads And it went really well. We started off strongly Danny and made a good season You've obviously been around a lot of big clubs after that you went to not in forest another club steeped in history We'll see, you know, Brian Clough and the era and all that sort of stuff. You're a double european couple is effectively Well, you know, you can hear the passion in your voice for football and everything else to pass that on What advice can you start giving to younger coaches coming through and I think it's important because There are a lot of coaches out there That didn't play the game professionally that didn't have those opportunities that played at a level that you played at And actually that can be quite inspiring that you went on to be very very successful having not had that so-called prestige playing career I think the key I get I get so many messages Be it twitter or linkedin or whatever from from young coaches whose passion for the game is is evident in every word that they write down But I hear them say, you know, I've done my level two now. I want to go into full-time football I get it all the time. I've got one yesterday I'm a level one coach looking to go full-time football And you're trying to say that one you've got to appreciate the industry In terms of the number of people who want to be involved in the the national game the global game And you've got to appreciate the work that's involved for you to have any chance of being successful I'm not saying like an old man here, but it was hard work Then it really was hard work long hours in the academy Watford for example You do your 85 90 hour weeks your day off for Sunday afternoon after the academy games and you're back on a Monday morning Um It's a slog, you know, and you have to put the time in you have to gain the experience And you have to improve your depth of knowledge I would never dream on a level one or level two to say i'm going to become a full-time football Football coach But you you have to acknowledge it now as I what my advice would be to recognize Recognize the industry understand what it would take to get into a full-time position and give yourself some some short-term medium-term targets So are you working with under 30s level of player? What do you do with that particular squad? Do you're working with what are your aims with this squad? What represents success for this squad and at those young ages? Is it more Technique based rather than anything else get into improve and get those skills at a level so they can then perform The challenges and the wider coaching sessions that you want to put on it's understanding What's involved in being a coach? You know, I was very fortunate to have to work with dick bait who in my mind was the best coach educator ever A man a font of knowledge But he would demand of you every day if your message wasn't clear enough if your coaching Message wasn't delivered in the appropriate manner He'd pull you up and you need that level you need that constant You know drive to to understand the demands of the game because players of your level players need to have Knowledge and if they think that you're you have holes in your knowledge They'll pick them out very very quickly. So you have to make sure you cover all bases. So is Is that is that difficult you think I've done my coaching or a certain level coaching badges and coaching It's so it is so different from playing You know and even when as I got sort of senior part of my career I coached what I would say on the pitch from a playing perspective and other players It is so different from putting on a session start and stop in a session Is this the biggest thing that the likes of gerard gigs? Lampard Barton soul Campbell is that their biggest challenge in in actually how they're going to coach rather than they've got the knowledge I assume But actually how to coach the language they use it is going to be the biggest challenge for them I think obviously they're the world-class players you know outstanding playing careers And they've now got to take their ideas and their knowledge into their coaching as you as you just said So how do they get their message across how do they understand how players arrive at a certain point you know from a to b etc And what's involved in that journey and what do you have to do to work with the players because I'm sure many things can quite naturally to those players as talented young kids coming through the academy Etc and you know young Frank Lampard a young Steven Gerard making a debut at 16 17 years of age Obviously they work really hard and maximize their talent But a lot of it must have come quite easy to them to to progress on to first in level so quickly Now when you're rangers or you're at Derby County, for example What's the right time to progress these players what do they need to do to improve their game? And I'm sure what they will do is surround themselves even with game of Callister Etc getting good people around them Jody Morris around Frank Getting good people good coaches around them to help them deliver their message But it's that clarity of message. I think they'll fight. They'll have to work out for themselves going forward And how best they can maximize the knowledge they've gained they've gained from working under some outstanding coaches And is that the most crucial point for them, especially for the young players that they're dealing with? You just mentioned when they came through they probably found it quite easy For them is it deciding When they are good enough to step in to the first team shoes and step into that regime And also when to pull them out, you know, you can step in for three four five games and then you come out for two or three and so I look at Mason mount example now So it's on loan from Chelsea and and Frank has a huge responsibility there to look after young players doing great for him But great for mason to be working with someone like frank lampard But it's maximizing that situation and making sure that His mason's playing time in minutes on the pitch is appropriate for his development He's being challenged in the right way each and every day and steven Likewise taking some very talented young young loneys Getting those getting those messages right to the players is key critical because at this stage they're queer when one wrong One wrong move here could really hurt them So it's it's it's important They're knowledge that they've gained over their playing careers to make sure they benefit the young star that's coming through now And i'm guessing some of the advice, you know for them Planning their sessions knowing what they're going to do having a Pathway that they want to go down and this is for all coaches I assume how important is it to have your day your week your month All of that planned out in advance just in case everyone will tell you a different story my for me personally It's absolutely critical. You know, I was quite Facidious in this I would I would plan out. This is what I want my players to be doing by the end of the season Does that come from your academic background or make football or a mix of both? I've always been that way I've always I've always liked planning the structure. So If you start the season, where do I want the players to be Christmas where I want to be in March Where I'm going to be at the end of the season. How am I going to get there? What do I have to do now to help Help without that to happen and I love that planning and structure I'd like all the sessions out weeks ahead and key points. I want to see but I also knew that I couldn't just Work through the whole session if the players weren't understanding a key point Then you have to keep working with them Don't just say box tick to move on to the next one because my diary says I should be doing this on a Tuesday No, the players have to learn. You've got you've got your plan, but you've got to have that flexibility Absolutely to step forward if they're better than expected or to regress slightly if they're not quite good enough Absolutely spot on and and to me that's one of the key arts of coaching is knowing when the player is ready to move on And to challenge them in the right way And that's the key for me is understand that this is my plan This is after deviate slightly and why I'm deviating and this is the outcome of that And as I say have your clear targets in place short medium and longer term But what you do the micro detail within that is the art of coaching And how important is it to give players responsibility to go and learn for themselves? You know, I've been around a lot of football a lot of academy my kids are through the system We tend to be producing One of the better word almost a lot of robots at times, you know Academy players, they're great if they're told what to do and when Do we do we need to give players more responsibility to learn for themselves at times? I think if you look at the young so the young England national squad, for example There's a great depth of talent coming through all age groups now and then success at 17s 19s 20s 21s, etc Tells you that there's a real pool of talent being developed So there's a lot of outstanding work being done through the academies You know the roles of the various partners and e triple p, etc So a lot of good works being done But you the level of the game is getting higher and higher The game is getting quicker and faster decision-making process is getting ever quicker So we have to challenge these players Danny. I think in before they reach the first team That's the key They've got to be they've got to be confronted with a variety of challenge a quality of challenge Which best prepares them for that first team experience. They can't be right We know you can't be right that you step into a first team and the first time you face a Young aguero type center forward is is in the first team You should have hopefully have played him through at 16 17 18 19s Is some of the problem and up but this is my belief you might disagree And feel free to sometimes when young players step into the first team environment They almost stop getting coached a lot of their time because obviously everything is about winning Everything is about the first team and sometimes their development Can slow down a little bit because they're not maybe getting the one-to-one of the sessions that they need Because it is just about winning and the first team games I think now even the change of title the managers becoming head coaches I think you're now seeing and go back to your earlier question about technical director Where certain responsibilities could be taken away and allowing the The manager to focus on his coaching abilities. I think the young players are being coached You're dead right There's a danger that you can leave this coaching Environment of an academy for example up to 23s and suddenly you're in the first team It's all about the result on a Saturday. It's getting that balance right I believe more and more you look around the managers in the Premier League for example on a championship So much good coaching work is being done into these young players I think the game has moved on significantly for maybe five eight ten years ago So that you like you have to watch that and be aware of that potential danger But I think a lot of good work is being done with these with these young players now Still talking about sort of young players Every single coach will always have problem players You work with one in particular. I sat next to him for four years Joey Barton You know challenges every single day in terms of attitude and whatever But how do you what would be your advice to give to any coaches where you get a Disruptive influence within the team, you know, how do you deal with that? Do you take them out? Do you arm around them? What's the best way to deal with Any player that's some sort of attitude problem or slightly disruptive to the session I think you've got to look at it. What what age group of player you're working with So if it's a younger player for example 13 14 a local team and your job is to help him Now if if if they're beyond help with you or you don't possess the skills to help this particular individual Then obviously you hope very much you're aware enough to to make the right decision But I think that there's more senior level now. It's all down to recruitment It's all down to doing a due diligence and your homework and asking the key questions and hoping there's a relationship there But sometimes these players with the edge are the type of players you're looking for They had that edge to your team performance on the pitch as well And yes, they may be they may challenge you on many aspects But it can be very good for your management as well. You know, it's part of your experience building And your knowledge building how do I deal with him? What do I do? Well, what could I've done better? You know, where was the key mistake for me? It's just life experiences, Danny So I think you have to make sure that is that the hardest thing about coaching management What do you want to call it? Is it the the man management these days of of individuals? Is that the hardest aspect at the top level that you've got to get right? I think we've spoken previously you and I about the that is the key skill I look at man City now to have so many players world-class players not involved on a Saturday or Tuesday That's fun all credits of Pep Guardiola to to deal with that because I think I hear coach yourself I love being on the grass That's almost the easy part in some way in some respects in the fact that everyone loves doing that You can go on the grass. You're doing what you enjoy doing best the man management off the pitch Dealing with the individual players understanding what makes them tick understanding that one might have a You know domestic issue to deal with or sickness in the family or divorce or whatever it may be You've got to understand it because you're dealing at the highest level Professional sportsman and and you've got to make sure that when they go out on the cost of white line Their head the body's in the best place for them to deliver performance And and that's your role man managing to give them the best environment to maximize their abilities And I guess that filters all the way right down to to grassroots coaches Whereas at professional level you're dealing with players entirages agents Managers PR people whatever lawyer whoever it is as you drop down it becomes about parents You know and family members that you have to deal with and understand like you said If they've got any sort of problems going on behind the scenes away from the football Yeah, the young coach you spoke about how does a young coach aspire to become a full-time guy in the game or Lady in the game and and that's very much in dealing with those experiences dealing with the problem parent Setting the rules and setting the standards within your within your club Doesn't matter if it's under 9s under 15s under 18s. What are the standards that you demand? Expect the levels of respect that you expect from the players and the parents boys and girls They're your standards and that's what you stand by and they whether they're in place under 13 local park or the first team In in the championship. It doesn't matter. They're your standards and you've got to buy buy them I think players of all levels Want want to know the boundaries they want to how far they can push it You know the old saying of the guys earlier is players hate rules or one thing they hate worse than that is no rules They want structure. They want that clear guidelines. I think if you give it to them, make sure you adhere to it as well Well, there you go. Thank you very much mark. You've been an absolute star some incredible advice from a an incredibly knowledgeable Perspective and slightly different perspective as well, which has been fantastic. So Good luck with whatever role you decide to next whether that be sporting director manager coach Running the country sorting brexit out whatever it may be. Good luck with it. Many thanks today. Appreciate Danny. Thank you Many thanks to mark for joining us for the third episode in season two of the coaching manual podcast Thanks to everyone for listening. You can keep up to date with the coaching manual on social media Follow us on twitter at coaching manual on instagram and facebook at the coaching manual register for an account now for session playing tools High quality coaching content and more essential resources for football coaches at the coaching manual dot com See you next time