 good afternoon. So we don't have a lot of updates today. We just got an approved through council last week. So this will be fairly brief. So a couple things I'd like to go over is that we do have the contract. I believe it's signed. I think we're waiting on the insurance documents to come back from the gateway signage. The gateway bids originally we budgeted about 500,000 actually came in under budget. So we're probably gonna get a few more signs than we thought we were gonna get to begin with. Just depends on the selection process of those signs. We do have three signs selected. Of course, one of them is going to be a master sign that will have a secondary sign, but and then we'll have a one that we can print out of our sign shop just to post around town. It says, you know, entering city women's sign. Now, where are the where are the actual locations? So I was going to pass that out. We have locations yet picked out. We did years ago identify 18 locations that you could potentially put signs at. I want them all in different form. Well, for me, the priority was definitely the highway stuff like the highway signs. But as we go through this process, what we'd like to do is sit down and go through those signs and see where we want a primary sign versus a secondary sign. And maybe there's an additional location somewhere where we're missing something at that. So our next steps are one of them we've actually completed. We've went through the city's marketing team. They've actually looked at the concept to make sure it is compatible with these cities, the new marketing ideas. So I think the next step that we're going to do with people and talk about locations and talk about the sign design that we currently have. And do we want to modify it in any way? How's it going to function? And then start moving the project. I told you my update would be brief and that's it. One more question. So the current design that we just saw, that came from the sign company? Okay, so they base that off of the flag, but this would need to be updated with the branding and font that's consistent with City of Columbia's. And there's a we'll have an opportunity to have input on this design, correct? Okay, so I think you're right. Yeah, I think we just want to we're no hurry to have a sign that we don't love. Yeah, we'd like to see that. And then I will say the secondary sign, the primary sign, everything's back. So it actually has LED backlit lights for the name is we will actually be able to change colors of those as we walk to the year to celebrate the thing we can celebrate. So it has a lot of good design features in it. We wanted that low maintenance and it is low maintenance. So I think working with maybe some brick colors and stuff like that. The good news is I consider myself an expert in this field. Yeah, we definitely have an expert on the signs. Whether anybody else does or not, it's not relevant. And I think once you have those conversations, I think it would be great if we can divide and conquer these 18 locations by these signs versus the sign shop signs just updating our very old Columbia, a world class play to be or whatever that is. They're they're all over your district, actually, that need to be taken down. And I think that'll be it'll be easier for us to visualize where it would go. Yeah, are these going to work into the the MBGL? Yes. This will just be a component of their larger beautification funding. They will work into some of it. The MBLG signs are the locations are so a lot of those are outside the city. For you to use the first one forest drives the second one. I think highway one is the third one over in Lexington. So the MBLG stuff is more regional approached versus this is more local. But some of these signs should be or should be with us. So what is that? So what's the MBGL sign? They're not doing a sign. They're doing just landscaping. And I'm sitting on their committee for that to be a liaison to us for this project. So they're aware of this. But theirs is beautifying the gateways from like the airport and into Fort Jackson. And it's just landscaping. Yeah. Good. One other thing I'd recommend on the signage, we should do a we can do a prototype review of of not maybe not even a whole sign but like parts of a sign. Yeah, at Colite. And to be honest with us, that's that's a lot of that's something that a lot of our industry doesn't like doing because they consider it, you know, extra work. But you know, we we we always try to get the stakeholders to come in and then you can make a lot better decisions when you're actually looking at something in real life than you can on paper. Yeah, so we'll make sure we get that. What is what's our timing on this? I mean, realistically, yeah, that was my next several other projects we've got going on right now. I would like to meet within the next two weeks with our with our group and then maybe bring the company to sign company in to start hearing some of our ideas along with the city's marketing firm so we can start, you know, checking out some of the little things. I think once we get that done, I mean, the sign, it looks pretty good that I wouldn't think it. So we could aim for like, first quarter of 2024. I was gonna say I think I think I think once you I think a 13 week process is a pretty normal process for something like this. Yeah, I think we've got the stumbling blocks we may have will be the DOT permits, something like that. We're holding those permits. Awesome. Thank you. Any more questions? Alright, thanks. All right. How about zoning? Hey, Krista. Hello. So this is a follow up to like a couple meetings ago. I'm just kind of having Krista give us an update on on some of the changes lamented on zoning and then kind of look at what's the process going forward? Yes. So thank you. What we now call the unified development ordinance formerly was the zoning and land development ordinance. And so we are updating you on that process that we went through. We still consider it recently to rewrite that entire document first time that we had done so in 40 years. And a lot of the goals were about streamlining, making it easier to use and implementing the goals of our comprehensive plan, which you know as playing Columbia, which is a 10 year comprehensive plan. So significant changes. One of the major ones is really just about how you use the document and how easy it is to use, compared with the previous one that was very text heavy. There's a lot of tables. There's a lot of flowcharts. There's pictures as well to help describe to people what it is we're trying to convey. Not as I mentioned before, it's still a technical document. It's still requires, you know, some discussion, but it is a whole lot easier. In addition, we have a lot more definitions and they're written in actual English that that we and others can use. And there's a section in the beginning, all on administration, so you can look at what it is you're trying to do and know who's involved and what steps are necessary instead of trying to parse that out from the document. So you asked for some highlights of improvements. One of the ones we've found to be extremely beneficial is an administrative adjustment. So previously, if you were a little off of your setback, let's say six inches foot, you would have to go to the Board of Zoning Appeals for that. The ordinance now allows for certain dimensional requirements to receive an administrative adjustment based on certain standards from the Zoning Administrator, thereby reducing the number of those cases. We now have accessory dwelling units, which under certain standards, you can have an accessory dwelling unit and for single family residences even as well. Property and learnings to be living there. We have a lot more mixed use districts. We used to have primarily commercial and residential. One of the goals was to increase the use, the mix of uses primarily along our corridors to get multifamily in there. That helps with our housing. It helps take off some of the pressure in our, in our single family residential districts. We now have green building standards and incentives. And we have neighborhood compatibility standards. And one thing we haven't seen someone use yet, but we'll be talking a little bit about this in a second, is the cottage development type, which allows for kind of compact development would be great. I think for retired folks, for empty nesters, allows you to put all of those around like a central green and put the parking out to the edge. So we're hopeful that we'll see some folks take advantage of that. Okay, that's a quick question before we move forward. Okay, so I love those changes and they all make sense. So are they unified changes across the city or are they, are there, are there different, different improvements for different areas? So for the mixed use districts, for instance, those are primarily along our corridors. Our corridors used to be zoned mainly just a general commercial or a predominantly commercial. Almost all of our districts corridors are now mixed use. So you'll find that you're allowed to do multifamily residential along many of those corridors. Neighborhood can build compatibility is, is throughout the city as well. So it'll be my next question. So is that a, is that that concept? Is that, is that a black and white concept or a gray concept? So it's contextual. So I guess you could say gray. Because what, and why that's important is because there is not a one size fits all. When you are developing commercial, right directly adjacent to someone's house, it matters how far away that is from the house with regard to buffers. Where you put your driveway. So it really does matter based on the context. So if you had a one size fit all black and white, it wouldn't work as well. So that's fine. So are there areas of Colombia that this should aid more than other areas? That's these, the streamlining of, and, and I guess simplification. So the ease of use and, and what I described in this, in the slide before, that's citywide. That's code wide. Absolutely. That impacts everybody. Some of these others are dependent upon the context in which you're located. So if you're on Divine Street or on North Main Street and your house right behind it, you're going to benefit a little bit more from neighborhood compatibility than if you're a house way deep into the neighborhood. So, or if it's a corridor that's predominantly commercial, like let's say, Colombiana Drive. I mean those aren't going to, to apply. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to think about is, and what I think about, you know, just a general concept of economic development. I can't help but think about like certain areas of Colombia and, and, and our ability to affect the development of those areas in a more strategic way than we've previously done in Colombia. So, for instance, I think about Rosewood Drive all the time. And I think about, you know, as a, as a city and based on these changes, you know, is there, is there some strategic plan that we could kind of provide that, that allows people to, I'm a developer from Atlanta and I want to develop in Colombia. And I say, well, here's a great strategic plan for Rosewood Drive from Assembly all the way to Beltline. Okay. And, and without making it weird or, or, you know, too much. Okay. But, but just giving people like, if you, if you're a developer of, you know, mixed use, or if you're a developer of this, these are the areas in Colombia that would be amazing for you to develop. And it seems like that, that there's always this disconnect of, of projects. And I could be making that up because I'm not a developer. So what, what zoning does is set the table and then it doesn't entice the development necessarily, it facilitates and sets the table. And I would say that the zoning districts we have now, for instance, along Rosewood, along with some of the improvements we've seen that followed, for instance, removing the parking requirements, that has set the table. Now, with regard to maybe painting what you're going to putting out the menu a little bit more, that's going beyond a little bit more of zoning, but you could do that through a planning process. So we did a neighborhood planning process and included Rosewood drive a little bit with the corridor. But you could potentially, you know, provide more of a, this is what could be done here. I guess that's what I'm saying is you kind of lay it out there that if you're, you know, this type of year, this is what you develop it and it may give us from the city a more of a, you know, concept when people come here to be able to say, Oh, wow, this is you should definitely look at this area. You know, so, but but I guess what I'm saying is I think maybe we can take that the step further. So you'd you'd you want to put some eyewash to help like riddle some elevations to show what I want to do is I think those exist in some form or fashion on the like the zoning examples, right, they'll show the the space program, like a three story mixed use can go, you know, along this corridor under this zoning. But to tailor it, which I agree with you, I mean, that is pretty much a, I guess, a market yeah, right. Type study market presentation. Because I, you know, I think that the answer is you want people fishing in the right place, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And we want to tell them where we think they should fish when they want to develop in Columbia, whether it's a local person or or somebody from especially if it's somebody from out of state, you know, and kind of point them in the right direction. Yeah, and that would be a partnership with economic development to target those areas and state that these are the uses we've, you know, we've set the table for these types of uses and this type of development. This is where you can look to go. That's how fully supported Rose would. I know I'm telling you, you know, and that was my old family dollar looking at it, you know, and I grew up in that area and and it's, you know, every time I go by there, it just seems like it's just an amazing stretch of, you know, corridor in Columbia that that could just be such transformative for the city and for that whole area. It is. And we have a number of those one and one of our challenges there is that there there needs to be land assembly as well. We have a lot of individual owners of individual power souls that need they need to be consolidated to your point. I also think that once the assembly street, kind of that ballpark area, the 10 or so parcels around there, once those start breaking ground, I think you'll see the whole Rosewood market kind of. It is funny that because I think that way, too, it's like you almost need to have a stake in the ground here and then one here and then let those two stakes connect each other, you know, organically, you know, but then also try to drive people to help develop that area the way it makes the most sense. So it's it's but it's good. I think without the stake in the ground, like like you said, where the ballpark is and then the stake in the ground, kind of where, you know, where Frank's developing or even further down, you know, you could help that whole area just kind of mesh into I think it could be an amazing. So it sounds like this could be an opportunity then to maybe merge some of the different efforts that are happening in terms of our marketing study and some of the work there to make and build collateral to court different businesses with some of these, I think, potential opportunities through our new zoning changes. So it's really finding a way to communicate about this in a way that, like you said, it makes people look in the right place. Because right now, unless you know that our plan is called Columbia Compass and you understand zoning, you do have to do a little bit of research to understand where you can build. Yeah, I think, yeah, what you can build. I just wanted to ask a question on the accessory dwelling units. Have you seen more permits come through for that since we adopted or made that change to promote what two years ago? Right? I don't have the number with me right now. I do understand we have seen some. So there are conditions. We didn't open the doors wide open, which some communities have and we may want to consider. But you do have to have the owner has to live in one or the other of the residences. So but I can certainly get that information. How does the accessory dwelling unit work in like historically protected neighborhoods or community character neighborhoods? It's still permitted. Does it have to does it have to match the unit in front of it? What are the details there? Actually, yes. So if it isn't a design review district, the historic district, it still has to be reviewed according to the design guidelines. But it can be built. Yes, as it can. So one of the other things is the from our comprehensive plan and that was implemented in this streamlining is promoting infill because largely, you know, we're a belt out community and we're going to get infill development. That's where most of our our expansion is going to come. And so as you all know, we implemented parking reform reform, which removed minimum parking requirements for most of our mixed use districts. We also increased a lot coverage allowance so you can build more on the lot in most of our zoning districts. Multifamily is already mentioned as permitted more flexibility for light and clean manufacturing. I want to see more of that. And we increased the threshold for review for that has to get a planning commission. So streamlining that review as well. This is the graph. So we were trying to get cases out of the board of zoning appeals. And as you can see over the years, we've halved it at least, if not more. That's awesome. Can I go back real quick to the previous slide? Absolutely. Okay, so the 7500 square foot, is that is that? Was that an arbitrary number or is that a sophisticated number? That was one that the council asked for that we used in the five points area. So it began that was our pilot was was to use that in that district. And I believe that was because most of the the businesses were in in in structures of that size. So but so the 7500 square feet, that number applies to outside of our mixed use districts. So in your general commercial or your industrial in the other mixed use districts, there is no parking requirement. So that 7500 foot or lower is only for like the other districts. I some that's gotten confused as we've implemented this. So I just want to make sure that that's clear. We feel like that's the right number. Or should it be? I think it's a good place to start, you know, but I would love to get some feedback from the commercial real estate. Well, I think that specific minimum part, so that a lot of input was given by commercial and business. And we got some pushback from some, you know, neighborhood folks as well. So I agree. I think in the future, when we see more density coming, it could be changed. But it has allowed for things like, for example, you know, gusses, right? Like, you know, some of those things wouldn't happen anymore because of this and not having to require him to get additional parking. Plus, I was wondering if we feel like we're at a good place or do we feel like we need to look and tweak in that. So right now, I would characterize the majority of our corridors fall under the no parking requirement. Our almost our entire city center has no parking requirement. So the 7500 is really applying to a small subset of commercial development that is more auto oriented anyway. So we're talking Garner's Ferry Road, some of our shop road, those areas that quite frankly, they're going to build a parking regardless of whether you're required or not. Yeah, I don't think I want to park on Garner's Ferry Road. So it's good. I mean, it encourages, you know, all of the empty lots, hopefully to get filled through this and not have to worry about the additional. I think that's one of the things going back to Will's Point, you know, as we as we kind of market Columbia or market areas. I think this is good for us to make sure people know about this stuff. I do think there's a lot of, you know, you even brought up misunderstanding of stuff. There's also a lot of non understanding of stuff. And I think if we if we kind of, you know, I want to sell these areas. I'm going to sell them hard. And I want to attract people to, you know, I mean, it could be, you know, the other day it might be a ground game where we're really strategically trying to develop a certain, you know, parcel in Columbia that we think is important and we want to find somebody to do it. OK, thanks. So finally, what's next? When last we spoke, we did hear that we had brokers who were displaying the incorrect zoning, for instance, on their on their listings. That was largely because Richland County was displaying the wrong zoning on their GIS have for years. And thank goodness with the help of our GIS folks, we have that corrected now. So I've been checking in just today, they finally it came up, you go to Richland County GIS and it actually displays the correct city of Columbia zoning. So that's really huge because now you won't have that confusion. It was working to correct, but now it is corrected. So does it send you to the Columbia City GIS or just no, it's their their template. It populates theirs. So I would love it if it were to send back to us. But baby steps, we at least got the correct information. We would love for it to to shoot over to our GIS because I think our GIS is fantastic. But right now, at least we have correct information on that website. So we're continuing the streamlining by rewriting design guidelines. We're starting with the two districts downtown, the Inavista and the city center. So we'll be coming to you kicking that off soon. Believe some of you know about collaborating with partners on assessing impediments to what's called the missing middle housing. And that is that kind of medium density that used to be all over our towns. And you see it predominantly in our first ring suburbs, quads, eights, seeing what we have that may not be facilitating that. We're continuing to make adjustments at your next council meeting. You'll see another amendment that we're processing for a zoning district. And then finally trying to get the information out in a more collaborative way where we are holding our development clinics that will be providing a forum for education and interaction with our professionals with which we work. Go ahead. So can you give us a quick summary of that change to the Employment Campus Amendment? Certainly. So there are certain uses. It really it falls under the industrial category and there's a lot of zoning uses that are not permitted. So for instance, we had Councilman Duvall had someone who was wanting to sell golf carts. It was not permitted. We have medium manufacturing. It's not permitted. So there's there's a number of uses that we are recommending for your consideration to be allowed in the easy. Yes. So what where's the residential component in that as well? Because it's very limited. It is. So we I know we did add live work. I don't have I can certainly send it to you. We're not opening the floodgates for multifamily and Employment Campus. It's still that niche live work, right? It is. Yeah. So we did add live work and to to the residential. But I'll I'll check it out. I'm certainly happy to send it to you in advance. One more question. So I hear a lot about overlays in Columbia. So how is how is all this addressed the number of overlays that we have? So the overlays, the two of which that I just mentioned, we are those are design guidelines. So what our overlays do generally speaking is implement a set of design guidelines. Largely, we have historic preservation. Districts that that I believe we have 18. And then we have urban design district and to implement those guidelines, that's what's called an overlay. So we are looking at those first two to revise those design guidelines to make them easier to use, as I think I've mentioned to you before. The first one dates from 1998. And we struggle with it. So we want to make those easier. It's going to be a focus instead necessarily on the architecture as the experience of the public lamp realm. Like what is it when you're walking down the street? You know, what do you experience? How do we impact the pedestrian friendliness of our of our environment? The right of way improvements, those types of things. And those are a lot easier to articulate than architecture ties into exactly what we were talking about earlier, though, which is this comprehensive look at what would what works where in Columbia and how to promote that to two people who are going to want to develop in Columbia and kind of kind of just spotlight. These are, you know, if you want to do this, this is the type of area that would really work best. Are the guidelines in over the districts? Just recommendations. So they are they they do have the force of law, but because it's not ordinance, it has you can you can meet them in multiple ways based on the context and what's around it. So that's why we have in this dates back to the first boards of architectural review back in the back. I think Charleston was one of the first ones. And so you have your set of design principles, but you have a variety of ways that you can meet that with the focus on, you know, smart growth, density and height. So I mean, is that something that's going to be considered when we look at the new overlays is, you know, height requirements, stuff like that? No, we we are steering way clear of height. That is regulated in zoning. So we will we will take that out of any reference in our design guidelines and let that be strictly regulated in zoning. So there is no confusion because the overlay developer looks at the overlay, sees that it says for for X, Y and Z, go look at the zone, essentially, for for the major for height, right, for any any lot coverage, any of those things. What what this would be talking about are those items that are not in the zoning district. For instance, you know, do you have windows on the first floor? Is it a blank wall? Or where are your openings where's where's that the zoning or is that that's also in the land development code? Yes. So we do have that landscaping. You have some overlay, for instance, if you have a parking lot that's near sidewalk, which is not your your best case scenario, but where you want to have that screened potentially with some landscaping. But it really is about those items that are that are more nuanced that are not in the zoning ordinance. So you would consider overlay would be a restriction on zoning. It's an extra layer. Yeah, it's a restriction on design. Yeah, I'll go along with that. So it's an extra layer. So let's go back to Rosewood real quick. So what overlays of any exist on Rosewood Drive? There are not any overlays typically like Vista five points. Yeah, so we've got our urban design overlays are downtown as Dr. Bussells are in a Vista and city center, which we're going to work on first. We have one on North Main and then we have one in five points. That's the only ones we have beyond that we have historic districts, which is which is Dervais Street. That's the historic commercial district that we have. And then we have multitudes of residential districts, Earl Wood. But the overlays are also on top of the historic districts in those four areas. Correct. So it's like a third level for that. Right. In terms of. So yeah, you do have a overlay for urban design and chicken with the chicken is zoning and then the eggs are the design guidelines and correct. Yeah, it provides that more that higher level of review beyond just, you know, what's your box? It's like what's your box going to look like? More questions. And Chris, so what I would ask going forward is as you dig into the city center and in a Vista would love to have periodic updates that's really discussed the process and how we are looking at making these changes going forward, I guess. And then what do we think they're going to actually, you know, accomplish? You'd love to do that. That's great. Thank you. All right, thanks. All right, so we're going to go back to the top and I'm going to introduce our guest, Frank Cason, his president of case and development. I think most of you probably know Frank Frank's longtime Columbia resident. Definitely a welcome addition to the development world in Columbia. So he's he's here just to get me. We're going to he's brought some handouts and then but we also are going to just let him kind of talk and we're going to make this. And just kind of talk about, you know, it's good to get updated everybody on what what they do and then but also, you know, look at the same thing. I don't know what we just talked about. What are the challenges and, you know, what are the things about Columbia that are good and what are the challenges that we still see? And Frank, thanks for coming and appreciating. It was kind of short notice. Absolutely. Yeah, I was told to put a PowerPoint together yesterday. But you did it. Forgive the informality of this. And I do feel like I know this. People in here. But I'm Frank Cason, Cason Development Group. We primarily what we do, about half of what we do is here in the city of Columbia, about half of what we do is around the state. So the half that you don't see is primarily retail driven. So we've worked in most markets around around the state and but most of what we do outside of the city is what we kind of call merchant bill where we we build and sell. And so we're very familiar with that type of development. We got plenty of that here, too. Almost everything we do here in Columbia is with no intent to sell. So we are we are here in Columbia and have been here for a while and and plan to be here for a while. You'd say your crowning achievement is the Taco Bell in baseball. Thank you for bringing that up. It's page one, if you will. Yes. Thank you for knowing about that one. So we have done a lot of historic. We have worked here and are very very proud of that as well. Not every project can be not every building can be saved not every building needs to be saved. But we think there are a lot of times when they can and should be so. So if you didn't give me a lot of direction on where you wanted me to go, but I'll freedom. OK, free free. Perfect, which is a great place to start. I was with another developer in Greenville last week who said he actually said this is a huge positive in my mind. He said it feels like Columbia is headed to where Greenville was and Greenville is headed to where Columbia was in terms of government meaning and he said he said Greenville feels like they feel like the government was responsible for their development now when the reality was that the government got out of the way and let and let them and let them do what they do. I love what Chris had just said is that's it's probably can't be focused on enough. She said those 7500 square foot users on Garnes Ferry are going to build parking. Whether you put an opening for them to not do park build parking or not. They want it. They need it. It's financially for them. Their their model is not going to work. But there are projects downtown that don't need the same amount of parking. There are reasons why we live downtown. And I think the more we strengthen this this core and kind of change the culture here on parking because it's literally every project we ever have. Every time somebody argues that we don't have enough parking or that it's going to generate more traffic. And as much as you say, have you ever been to Greenville or Charleston? It's it's still a constant thing. So I brought this this packet really just to kind of use as a. Flip through. Not as promotion for any of our projects. More to say we can walk through some of these to just kind of talk through one or two little little problems and issues. I've always been interested in how your development in Cotton Town came about. Yeah. And it's actually ordinance that Chris just was just on the the no parking thing would have been really great about eight years ago because we had we did nine buildings down there and every single one went to went to Boza. Everyone had one, two, maybe some of them may have been three. Boza or special exceptions or variances. So some of them had a special exception and a variance. And we were admittedly very fortunate that we had a forward thinking Boza at the time. And so we we got a lot of push back and we're we do the very best we can. And we're really big on trying to talk to the neighbors as early as possible and as much as possible. I don't know if it's ever enough. And we've made plenty of mistakes and mishaps and in that. But we try to do what we can to talk to them. Most of the time we found they just want to be heard. They just want people to kind of talk to them. So we did that a lot in Cotton Town and built up a rapport with them where we could at least talk through issues. That didn't mean they the board of Cotton Town supported us on every project. But we definitely were able to talk through. All right. What if we did this and what if we added this to that project? That was the first project that we did Peter. So. And then we really just took each one piecemeal. So we did. We bought a few of the buildings at the same time because they were just kind of in the same parcel. But we really took it piecemeal. We saw saw that. And I'd say see that still as sort of a microcosm for what we feel like we can do in Colombia, which is start somewhere, make an impact, make a big impact in a small area and do it through. I hate to sound cheesy, but through curating the tenants that we put in there. We've been very intentional about the tenant mix that that we put down there. We started with the warmout. That brought lunchtime and nighttime traffic. We knew that there was a huge void in the morning. And I mean, admittedly, as the Lord would have it, a coffee user came to us and we were like, this is perfect now. Now there'll be some morning traffic. I actually think that's super important for Colombia going forward. And that, again, goes full circle of what we're talking about, which is trying to take out some of the randomness of development and be more strategic in, I mean, and I look at this and I was just, I mean, you can tell you were strategic because it's like, well, this makes so much sense, you know, as a development versus you know, we'll take whoever shows up and throw them into a lease. Yeah. Well, most people didn't think it made sense when we were doing it. But it feels it feels good now. I mean, the next big piece, we've got to have that Cadillac dealership developed and hopefully that's what's happening. But so although we're upset, we're not doing it. We're somebody's doing it. It's good that somebody's doing it. And I think it's like, I think it's a good developer. So we're we're huge proponents of other developers. Like people ask us a lot who you compete with. We don't compete with anybody. I mean, we may have offers coming in at the same time, but yeah, exactly. So we put the page. Yeah, I'm going to ask you. So what's your what's your current take on problems? We love five points. I wish there were more sellers down there, to be honest. I think that's another microcosm of Columbia. There are so many landlords that for so long are not willing to invest a dollar in their real estate. And it makes a huge difference because what are they going to do? They're going to take whatever comes. And a lot of these landlords have owned them forever or they've been passed down. And so what happens is they don't reinvest. If they're not willing to reinvest, they can't up the rents. And if they can't up the rents, then there's going to be bar after bar after bar. And so, you know, like perfect example is the next corner, Ruby, Sunshine, Ruby, Sunshine, whatever that place is going to be yesterday. They're getting higher rent probably by a factor of two or three times what anybody else has gotten down there. And it's because they invested. They actually took the risk and started investing before they got that tenant. But it's because they're willing to invest dollars in that space on one of five the five points, one of the most iconic corners. So so do you think there's a I get the long term owners that are not sellers? Is there a is there a secondary problem? Math comes to because I'm happy to hear about that. I know that sounds counterintuitive. But the problem is you can't transform. You cannot transform anything in the free world with lower rent. Yeah. So so that's just not that's very true. So what I'm saying is is there a secondary issue based on the math of renovating the building, putting a tenant in there and then their ability to make money? Yeah. Well, ultimately, I mean, all of it comes back to demand, right, which leads to infill development, the more apartments and people we have living downtown, the more the restaurants can can do. We don't have very many restaurant tours. That's just the that's a fact. We really don't. So our biggest struggle trying to bring in other restaurant tours is we don't have the demand sort of height that Charleston does. We don't have the supply. That's what we try to argue. I think that's true. And it's it's been evidenced by calls and home team has two perfect examples of that. But yeah, it does come down to economics and this is like I'm not a politician, but the taxes, they hammer us. I mean, they thankfully in retail, thankfully, it gets passed through to tenants. So it's it's not it's often not as impactful. It's hugely impactful with apartments. It's probably it's the reason why we haven't seen much development. I mean, yeah, I was on a panel like maybe nine months ago. There were three of us. And it was me and the prior she one of the prior she's Jeff and and David Tuttle. And someone I didn't hadn't thought about this. Someone made the point that every development that so between the three of us, I guess, and been at in Ben Arnold, I think that's the only market rate department developers or housing that has been built between the four of us. And every single one, I guess, except for Ben's, he's in a different spot, but was and had to be incentivized. All of them are historic tax credits and so we we recently bought them. Jumped off five points and I'll come back to it. But we recently bought the property at Taylor Street, where the busted plug was. Yeah, at the city relocated, not us. And we we desperately want to build apartments there. We can't we can't do it. We can't build them right now. And yeah, we talk about economic conditions and, you know, the construction and it's because of the wrong conditions don't work. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited about this today. Yeah, that's right. So that's right next to that. And yeah, we're going to the reason we've slowed down on this because she's talking about 1525 bull that three, I feel like that street in Elmwood or two streets that really could benefit from just cabling underground and, you know, starting to see some development and updated sidewalks because they are. Especially with the Bull Street corridor, going to hopefully be attracting folks from 277 and from I-26. There's a real opportunity. I think that's that's one of three hottest intersections in Columbia. And it doesn't look great right now, though. It's terrible. It looks pretty terrible when you come in and you're just like, oh, yeah. The problem is going back to the math. And to be honest with you, the reason I was kind of picking on Jeff is that, you know, I'm really trying to dig into the math on Texas. It is super, super, super, super convoluted, confusing, and and maybe just flat out impossible to to completely understand from a math perspective. My goal, you ever seen those commercials where some some professors up there and he's got this whole huge board and he's doing all these math equations reminds me of all the seas I got in Notre Dame that didn't understand any of it then. And it's just hard to understand all this now. So it's like there's got to be some super complicated math equation. But it's just hard to understand. And unless we really understand the math behind the city and the county and how all this goes from X to Y, it's going to be difficult to make these changes. So so what if you wanted to develop that area? It's strictly the tax math or the other. No, we're back here. We're going to the section at Sumter and Taylor. Or is it a bull? Yeah, Bull and Taylor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not that you don't have the population here yet. So we don't have the it's not the rent numbers to get the the rent number that we need to make the deal work, right? So yes, taxes are part of it now. That particular deal. I believe we qualify for the incentive, the tax incentive program. So that helped a ton. And I made that made it close. But but our rent numbers aren't quite. I'll tell you. You should talk to Ben Arnold about. Math behind the palms. He is getting. Yes. And I think it's a good story that you should just have that conversation with him. You know, it's really. I would say that I would I think you could probably get the rent maybe that you needed. The question is, is it sustainable as more and more people come into the market? So I would argue that the rent might be there now, but it might not be there. Term and your long term. Yeah, I mean to me, Peter, that gives us that's where we feel like we do have an advantage because we can look long term, not five years, but 20 years to say, you know, it probably Yeah, it's kind of probably got a few a few tips in. But I mean, we we see. I mean, we see the need in Columbia for a huge need. Yeah, the multifamily. Huge. So I mean, I'm just telling you, I I I don't even know if I have a number in my brain that tells me where you should where we where Columbia should stop. Yeah, OK. I don't think that number exists of where we have too many units. You should also talk. They probably already have. I know you should talk to Robert Hughes as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, we're working with them on something else too. I mean, we have 30 units right here that are not far off price wise from Ben. And then we have 50 units on Rosewood and they're both 100 percent occupied with waiting lists. Right. Then this morning I got an email from our property manager saying here's our here's our projected increases next year. Rental increases next year. So the business we used to say that we're basically we're in the apartment business without the problems. Yeah, there's plenty of the same thing. I mean, but it's all based on supply and demand. Yeah, that's what's weird is that the demands there, the supply, the lack of supply is going to hold Columbia back. We can't get more apartments built and there's not going to be more restaurants, there's not going to be more retail. I was going to say, so what do you think the chicken is in all this? It's residential. People think you're right. The amount of people that come to us and we have a we have a mindset thing in Columbia to say, gosh, can we can we build any more apartments here? I'm like, you guys got to drive through Greenville and Charleston. I mean, I have people thousands on thousands of I have young your parents of young people and they say my son or daughter is moving to Columbia. They say, where should they live? And you know what I tell them? I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't have any idea what to tell you today. Yeah, that's that's a problem. Ultimately, I do think I think making our city this is going to sound cheesy. I think making our city cool is a huge part of what attracts people here. Well, what makes cities cool? It's not office buildings. It's retail and restaurants. That's what detracts people to Charleston. And that's that's what Greenville is speaking about as well. Retail and restaurants. Yeah, well, back to five points. I know your intentionality. Let's go towards your building. Let's go back to five points. You have some wonderful buildings and five points. Tecnell, obviously, have a tenant in the men's warehouse. Yep. We don't have the timeline on thinking about, you know, that conversion from, I guess, retail to the restaurant. Men's warehouse, unfortunately, Tecnell, for example, has a, yeah. Oh, men's warehouse, first, since that's the unfortunate one. They have a lease. Right. We have desperately tried to get them out because we don't really want them in there. But I mean, they're paying their rent and so but we do not want them in there. That's not the fit for where it is for sure. We have a number of restaurants that are, like, ready to go in as soon as they they move out, but they've got a while. And then we have the barbershop and the sushi, the old sushi or she plays too. So we've got a great user working with right now on the on that space, which is a restaurant user that we're very excited about. And then we do have a full building restaurant user local. There's actually two local restaurant tours coming together. This is I have not seen this happen in 20 years. I've been commercial real estate or two local restaurant tours have come together on a project. And it's a pretty cool. I'll just say they've used they've used images from five of Charleston's best restaurants as they're like representative images vision for the for the space. So it can be very exciting. Feel good about it. Is it going to happen? What's that going to happen? I think so. We're really, really close. And again, only way that project happens is with historic tax credits, because it's very expensive. I think that's part of the that's what that was when I was specifically alluding to that when I talked about the math. Yeah. So the problem with the math with five points. And I also think that, you know, if I was 20 years younger, I'd be trying to buy an entire five points because I think it's the hottest potential of any place in Columbia, especially with the university continuing to grow. And I think they'll help us connect some dots as well over time. Yeah. But but the there is a I don't know if it's a five year or 10 year problem of of how it develops. So I mean, do you think there's is there a secret to I mean, or is this just going to be a slug vest? And I think yeah, I mean, I think the right landlords and developers, which we're one of them just is they're going to pick the right tenants. They're going to raise their they're they're going to invest dollars and when they invest dollars, they have to raise rents. And when they raise rents, that's a good thing because there are only certain tenants that can afford it. Now, like our the sushi Yoshi space, which is this small space, it's we really want a local user there. We're not shying away from a national user, but the reality is a thousand square tenant. They're not very many national users there. So because of historic tax credits, because of Bayley bill, we can do we can do and get a little more creative on that. I think it all it all works on top of itself and builds on it on itself. So the more solid local restaurants we have, the more they show the market that there's demand there and the more apartments we have, etc. And it just starts to build on itself. So there are not a lot of opportunities to do. Apartment to add apartment density, residential density in the five points area. That's a good question. So Christa, so in five points, what's the zoning slash everything else associated with multifamily five and I'm even initially speaking like feasibility of there's not a big enough site. There's some outlier sites there. Yeah, yeah, I'm speaking up. Yeah, all right. So I believe it is it's our community activity center. I'll have to but that allows for multifamily. Okay, good. So many feet on it. I think that that does go to an issue that we see a lot for economic development that stops and halts economic development. I hate to say this harshly, but it is we feel at least a lack of leadership when when the neighborhoods uprise and not if when they there's an uprising, I just I drove down to get here and I drove past a site that actually went 10 years ago, maybe when I was that no 12 years ago. So when I was at Collier, I was a broker at Collier's. A student housing developer had the site where that car wash is going right now under contract as a time. It couldn't build for four bedroom units and their taxes were twice what they were in any other city. And so they dropped the project. Twelve years later, we got a car wash. The next site that I passed was a student housing development that was planned. I am not really, I don't think we need a lot more student housing don't get me wrong, but market also, the market dynamics also lead. I should should lead in my opinion. And we got instead of a 50 million dollar apartment project, we got a parking lot and it's it's a really expensive parking lot, but we got we got a parking lot. And the next development I passed and their friends of mine, but we got a Midas and it's a really nice Midas. But these are those are three really critical development sites and opportunities. I mean, one of which maybe the parking lot is still an opportunity at some point, but now the university owns it. I'm still mad about that one. That's just that's a travesty to me. I mean, that's a that's a big miss. And I do think that's leadership. And I think that's a that is there's a lot for Columbia. Now you're taking us back one more time full circle to the previous discussion about how we we I'm not kidding. We we we have to I mean, and I'm mentally prepared to almost be strategic parcel by parcel by parcel by parcel by parcel. With us and the right developer and the right fit for that property and the right push to to get it done. I mean, we're we're really almost in that situation that again, if you let random drive things, you know what you get random. I mean, if you're strategic, you get strategic. So so I mean, we really I'm saying I think we have to and that's why I really want to understand this to a really baseline level so that we can work with to bring people to and then make it as easy as possible for them. But there's no question at some point, we have to address the concept of our taxes. I mean, we can make this progress, but we're not going to make this progress without addressing that the fact that our taxes just aren't competitive with other places. And in today's world, you know, I mean, I'm a good example. And and we don't we almost never do signs in Columbia. OK, we're a global company. It's not because we don't want to do signs here. It's just that we just don't and we live in a global world. If I can live in a global world, that means almost every developer can too. And when he does his math and says, well, I could go here for X or I could go here for half X. What's he going to do? Yeah, I mean every time. Yeah. I mean, it's just the way it is. And do you have to get that out through our heads of a development that you've tried to do? Where you think now you specifically facing development where you think leadership has stopped you? That's a good question. Or you can use one word. Do you think leadership has helped you? Yeah, I don't I don't think you routine this up, but I'm going to say it anyways. Our Rosewood project was was a challenge for sure. And will you were a huge help? Seth Rose was a huge help in getting the street shut down. I want to say, Councilman, and there's a lot of put. Yeah, there wasn't he didn't he get involved to he was involved to. There's a lot of pushback and it did take a lot of I mean, I think that that is a good example of where when leadership steps in and says, can I understand what's going on and try to walk through with the developer? Now, these developers don't have forever because they're most of the time under contract and they're trying to work with this seller and who's trying to sell. But if you can get through that process expeditiously and try to have some sort of coordination between. I also think which is always would adapt to reuse. But like you as a developer could have gone a complete different direction than saving the building, reusing the gem vertical with new construction. I mean, I mean, I think you said it yourself, you could have put a dollar general there. Yeah, three were there. You wouldn't have to have gone through any any land. Yeah, no, that's right. Now, we could we had room to do the dollar general and auto zone and whatever the three standing Starbucks. Actually, that was probably the biggest challenge. Starbucks wants to be freestanding all the time every time. We got some traffic issues with Starbucks right now. But but they they want to be freestanding all the time. And we said, we're not doing that because they want to drive through. Yeah. Yeah, they got that one there. But but they want it easy. They want to just them. And we said, we're not doing that. We're going to add density on this site. And we and there were there were some people who said, you ought to tear all this down to 200 units. We probably should have. But when you're with your parking approach, yeah, I mean, have you noticed that it truly worked out like you planned? So there's wanting traffic. Well, you have the residents who leave in the morning, the Starbucks in the morning. And then as the new restaurant comes on board and the residents come back as that has absolutely been the idea and the goal. And we think we've got some issues with Starbucks specifically that we're trying to work. But but generally speaking, yeah, it's worked. Because the department dwellers leave and they're not there during the day. And Starbucks. And I think that's your point. That's the thoughtful kind of development. I know, I get it. Before you even said anything, I'd already moved ahead and wrote awesome at the bottom of the slide, because that is an awesome project. That would be neighborhood Zoom meetings when we didn't know. Oh, my gosh, yeah, yeah, at two hour long meetings. Yeah, I will say, can I also say in I think the past nine months or so, this can be understated enough to like the mentality for the last 10 years when you brought a project was no, no, no, here are all the things you can't do. And the last nine months, Christa and team. Greg, who just who just left, it's dramatically different. I mean, it's less talk about the project. And see if there see the ways to figure it out. And that's a huge, huge deal when you come to we're here. So like, it's a little different for us. But like, if somebody new comes into town and here's that versus negative, negative, negative, you know, stone face, we're not really interested in your project. We're going to tell you all the reasons why it's going to be difficult. Well, that's pretty deflating when you're trying to invest money in time and energy and risk. Because ultimately, it's it's always an economic and a risk equation that that allows anything to get built. So so I'd love to throw out the time of that. I want to I want to take 1436 Taylor Street. And I'd like to make that the challenge of everybody in this room to figure out how to develop that. How to how to how to how to work with you. Am I getting just a positive one? Yeah, it's fantastic. It looks fantastic right now. It's just one big put down the website, everybody. So yeah. So I think I think I think part of this is we have to understand the challenges of developing this. This this I'm just telling you, this would never be a challenge in any other city in the United States of America. Out of our size and the fact that it's a challenge in Colombia. We have to address it and we have to work through the fact that this parking lot is a challenge to develop. That's insane. OK, I mean, somewhere somewhere in maybe Iran or North Korea, this would this would be a challenge. But the United States, this should not be a challenge. Yeah. OK. And we've got to work together to try to figure out what we can do to make that this project successful. I think challenge ourselves to really just look at the data in the details and what Frank wants to do and look at what what the math has to be in order to do it. That's what I think you got to be able to tell you. You got to tell yourself that that's insane, that that's not that can't be developed here. I'll add that one of the things we're excited about there. It's also sort of some of the things something you see in other cities as developers working with other developers. And we don't see that a lot here. We did we partner with Cone Development Construction over here. And this project, we partner with Cone and Baker and Baker, who y'all are all very familiar with. And so I mean, it's not a lack of desire or interest in Columbia or firepower, but it is in our demand. I mean, the demand, we all know it's there. So and we've got blocks from Main Street design. Yeah, it's been crazy. It's two blocks from Main Street. Yeah. It goes like it's further than that, but it's two blocks. So it would feel closer to that than that once it was built. Oh, my God, no, you're right. It would be, yes, correct. It was shortened that mental distance a lot. It's a mental distance. It's not a physical distance. OK, any more questions? No, thank you. If this is very interesting. Thank you all for focusing on this, Frank. Appreciate it. I think all the best for our PowerPoint. I've ever seen him a whole life. Thank you. All right, Will, you want to drive us into executive session? So, Chairman, I'd like to make a motion to enter executive session for discussion of matters relating to the proposed location expansion for a vision of services, encouraging location or expansion of industries or other businesses in the area served by the public body pursuant to SC code 3430-4-78-5 2221 Divine Street Project Grove. Second. Thank you. All right, all in favor, please say aye. All right, let's go.