 Welcome to the depression to expression podcast my friends. Welcome back. It's been a while now You all know that I did the TEDx talk called why you should question everything right the the power of Curiosity and asking great questions to solve life's most intense challenges so obviously The guest on my podcast today we met because she wrote a book called the power of curiosity She helps parents executives have difficult conversations and go through life challenges with this attitude of curiosity Isn't that incredible? So obviously we connected because we see the world in a very similar way The power of curiosity the power of asking questions the power of having an open mind That's what we're gonna talk about today Okay, being being a parent today is very difficult being an educator being an employee being a human being is Difficult today and what sometimes we have trouble expressing ourselves geez and mental health if we're going through difficult times How do we open up? How do we talk to other people? This is what we're gonna talk about today now? What's really cool about Kirsten and I is oh my gosh, I'm smiling right now if you can't tell We did our very first parent group Myself and her talking about internet safety Screen time and social media for kids We spoke to parents of grade 5 students So what we do and what we're gonna continue to do in 2020 a lot of times is go through the city of Toronto and Anywhere anywhere people will have us and I talk about you know being an influencer being on social media the impacts of mental health My experience at Twitter social media agencies and the parents are interested in tracking and data and what the internet and tech companies Know about you I go through that and then Kirsten comes in and she talks About okay, how do we have this discussion with our kids? How do we have a relatable? Conversation so we're really really working together, and I'm so happy that she's here with me because you know You're gonna hear a lot more from her you're gonna see videos You're gonna see pictures of us on Instagram on YouTube of us working together in the education system So Kirsten here we go everyone. Thanks for staying tuned remember all merch What am I gonna say here yes all merch that you buy at shop.depression2expression.com funds this channel You're then welcomed into our online community where we use the app discord and have chats with people all over the world If you want to see what that's like well one of my latest videos on YouTube is a few of us patrons We're doing the live stream together and streaming on YouTube. It's so fun. Check out depression2expression.com and just learn more about what's going on I have the best job in the world. Okay. I'll shut up now. Here's Kirsten Siggins with me in three two one Kirsten welcome to the depression2expression podcast you have a Business with the greatest name I have ever heard and to be honest I think I'm a little jealous that you that you took it before me my friends The co-founder of the Institute of curiosity those of you who have followed me for quite some time Know that that word and asking questions based on that old TEDx talk Curiosity is what I live for to learn more to become a better person to question the world that we live in Why do you think curiosity is such an important thing Kirsten? That's a loaded question Such a loaded question. I mean, I think curiosity is the essence of life for me I think that you know what I've learned is there's no right or wrong way of doing anything and as long as we're curious We can always learn and more importantly understand. So when we look at curiosity, we look at in the context of conversations And so for us, it's really about how do you have curious conversations because I think most people believe they're curious in life we all Read books or have passions or want to know what's in a box But where we are not curious what we've realized is in our conversations And when we're not curious in conversation So we judge and blame and shame and get stuck in a right wrong headspace and all of it leads to conflict So when you can be curious and you can see here and understand people you approach a conversation very differently Because you're taking the focus off of self to better understand others Right, so we get out of our own way and then we learn things that we would not normally learn So curiosity for me is is like the essence of everything where because that's how we inspire ourselves That's how we engage. That's how we understand. That's how we learn And I think it's the foundation of a happy life personally. I think I agree with you there I think we the reason you're sitting on the couch here is a because you're an amazing person. Thank you so much for coming Studio but We the conversation we had over the phone and we'll get more about your business and the Institute of Curiosity But our conversation on the phone It was supposed to just be a quick hello I think it was like 40 minutes we spent because you'd ask me a question I would respond and then I'd be so excited to ask you a question back because I know You'd be so grateful that I asked you something because your answer would just be be filled with You'd you just the curiosity sparked this this whole conversation that we had over the phone And there was so much give and take in that conversation It wasn't just me asking you questions and then there'd be a pause and you'd wait for another there's a beautiful exchange do you think that's a lost art in conversation now where there's a lot of of You know talking not enough listening based on both parties. Yes a hundred percent. Yes But you have to remember we're not taught how to listen number one and two we live in such a Technology dominated world. I mean if you're with the age of 40 like I am there was a time all we had was conversation growing up That's all we knew that's all we had and I think that with the advances in technology that's changed So you don't have to have conversations in fact working with parents a lot of the times They use text as the best for them that they find is the best method of communication with their kids so if we're not practicing conversations at home and We're not practicing conversations with our friends at school and you see a lot of kids that are texting They're all standing together, but they're texting each other or they're finding ways to use their technology to communicate It becomes difficult to have conversations and conversations There's skills that we have to learn and develop and there's this huge assumption that we all know how to do it And and we don't and listening is a huge part of that asking questions is a huge part of it I mean, I don't know you're younger than I am. So how how were you taught the skills of communication? You taught to have conversations. No, but it came naturally because I we didn't have the phone at the time So if you want if you wanted to get through to someone yet to knock on the door or yet to call their home phone and You'd usually get their mom or dad first. So then you hi is Joel there, please Thank you, and then you then talk to the person on the phone Okay, you want to meet here and then you'd have that in-person conversation Now it's maybe not still not a lost art, but there are now alternatives to have that in-person conversation and You think of what a conversation entails. It's there's a lot going on to be able to think of of What to say next but while also listening while also coming up with yes a response by being present there There's a lot going on where text is you you have time to respond You don't need to be present in that moment. Do you think with kids now? They're choosing Text because maybe it is easier as far as response time and not having to be that aware I you know, I love that you said that so when I work with teens Yeah, that was consistent feedback I get from them where we would talk about especially difficult conversations and that would be something they would struggle with and So when you talked about how you have a conversation They would say things like well, you know, we don't have conversations because with texting you can edit you can control You can be funny you can set the tone you can you know So it's a it's a place of putting your best foot forward and you're in complete control of that whereas in real-time conversations They felt that they couldn't control any of that so they shied away from them all together Interesting so I think there's a lot of truth to that Do you know how much easier it is to bomb at a joke over text than in person? Like think about that fear as a child and the fear of failure you go out for you say a joke Nobody laughs. Oh that hurts, but over text. Well, maybe you get a ha ha instead of an LMFAO You know what I mean? It's not as it's not as intimidating So when you're working with teens, let's talk about the Institute of Curiosity for a second What kind of work do you do? I know you do a lot with with parents as well, but you also work with with teens So I started out about yeah, so I should first say so the Institute of Curiosity is very unique from the perspective that it's a very small business It's my mom and I so my mom is my business partner, which is like I can hear people gasping already like You know who works for their mother but you know the truth of the matter is is that People How should I say this that was awkward? We had a great relationship beforehand, but if somebody had said to me ten years ago You're gonna work with your mother. I would have laughed them out of the room, right? I love my mom She was amazing It's the it's the communication skills that we taught and came up with Through the process of being curious and coaching other people that actually made it viable for us to have a business together So we both started out as executive coaches I worked in the entertainment industry My mom worked in health care and she was teaching coach approaches to doctors and nurses and you know leaders in health care It was how to have a coaching conversation so to speak and the feedback was that's great and everything But the part that's really interesting is this part about being curious And so we played with it and we investigated and we learned that if you are curious in conversations You can actually control your emotions So you can have those challenging conversations and stay in that if you stay in that place of curiosity You can stay calm and connected in those challenging conversations and the neuroscience supports that which I'm happy to talk about so we it started out more as a leadership component and I was Coaching people in the entertainment industry and we started teaching these skills and there was sort of two ahas that came out for me One was that Everybody struggles with communication skills. It doesn't matter if you're leading a company or your stay at home mom or whatever It doesn't matter what you do. These are skills that are not taught That's why we hear our parents voices coming out of our mouths when our back is up against the wall, right? We do what we know even if it's not successful and the second point that I realized was you know How we show up as parents it has such a huge influence on our kids and I had young kids at the time And but we wait until we're leaders We wait until we need to make more money or we want to raise or there's something that there's a reward Or motivation to invest in ourselves to be better communicators, right? It's never because I want to be a better parent or I want to be a better spouse or partner or friend or whatever It was always sort of work related So I thought to myself, okay What if we turned up if parents learn these skills that we taught them to their kids from the get go You wouldn't have to wait until you were in a leadership place to learn these skills So my passion became about working with parents and working with teenagers so in LA I did some work with teenagers and It was I learned more from them I think than they learned from me about how they looked at communication and how it You know feedback was my parents had all this time to listen to me And they never did and now that I'm a teen all they want me to do is listen to them But if they're not going to listen to me, why should I listen to them, you know So they do what we do not what we tell them to do and I think as parents we I Always say this we take our best to work and we bring our leftovers home And we don't even recognize that we're doing it right So we take our best to work because our clients are paying us that and so we're present and we're listening And we're doing all the things that you're saying that we come home at the end of the day And we're exhausted and we're tired and homework needs to be done And you got to put food on the table and do your you know There's laundry and dishes and a million different things and we're not as Present and we're not as aware of how we're showing up and we're more emotionally triggered And then our kids go to school and they take their best to school and they bring their leftovers home So they're emotionally fraught and we have these really challenging conversations And then it's those are the patterns that we're setting we're instilling for life, right? That's how essentially when we become leaders, that's how we're going to show up as leaders because that's what we know that's So it's how can you switch that? How can you come home and be more present and be more curious with your kids to understand them? So you can teach them these communication skills so that you know, you can have conversations where you understand each other hmm, I Wonder because we spoke about this before we turn on the microphones. Can you teach? Well, I guess you can but how do you teach someone to be curious? I gave the example of you know Some people are in just awe of the world that they live in and they live to wonder and to ask questions Like you came into my condo. You're like sweet view. This is awesome. I'm like, yeah, look at the clouds Isn't that awesome? Look, you can see the planes take off. How does a plane work? That's the way my mind works But as I gave the example some people come in the condo and they just want to watch the TV or they're Inspired by something else some people like the whiteboard I have more than the view, right? Yeah, so Can you teach curiosity? Is there something more innate in some people than there is in others? with this sense of awe and wonder I Don't know. I mean, it's a good question I think if you in terms of teaching curiosity in conversations Yes, because that's what we do in terms of teaching curiosity in life. I think it's important to remember We're all motivated and curious about different things. It doesn't make One thing better than the other it just makes it different and it's finding out what We're passionate about and what we're curious about and what motivates us. I think that when it comes to You know, if you're talking about curiosity in terms of conversation sort of what you're saying when you come in and you see how people respond we're We're not taught We're taught we have to get out of our own way is what I'm trying to say, right? We're so in our own way. So we don't when we speak we don't think to engage others We don't think about we just look at it differently. We're speaking to get our point across. We're speaking to be heard We're not listening to understand. So a lot of how we live our life is focused on self It's getting out of your own way to recognize and understanding other That's what sparks the curiosity, but not all of us get to that point It's a choice. I think that we can make but we have to choose to be that way We have to choose to be present We have to be we have to choose to get out of our own way to engage with others to learn about them We have to choose to want to listen to be open to different perspectives and I think a lot of people hear a different perspective and then we go to that right wrong mindset and we want to shut it down because if It's different than our own and it's not right then it must be wrong and it becomes positional and judgmental Yeah, and I think it's difficult to be curious in those you can be curious, but it's a choice that you have to make, right? I think oh my gosh Getting out of your own way That's so we could talk about social media I think there's a beautiful culture of narcissism coming out in the world. Hey even myself. Yeah, I edit my own videos I'm looking at my face. You have to keep track of this metric and this and of course, you know having your own business, too You're constantly You know you have a million hats on you have to be worried about your own your own state of affairs. I Think that's really really difficult for people myself included to get out of your own way There's this awesome speech by Albert Einstein and just I'm not just paraphrasing it He's like anyone who's ever thought for more than a second really realizes that we exist solely for other people Like and it's so true if you ask maybe the five whys if he say what do you want to ask? Why do you want that and why do you want that? Why do you want that at the end of the whys you're always going to usually come back to either? I want to be more happy. What does that mean? Probably having more friends more community doing something for your family for someone else Getting out of your own way is fantastic. Is there a way that you can do that? Is there mindfulness practices that you teach? Is there? Changing your physical state that helps. Is there anything around that? I would say getting the easiest way to get out of your own way is to be curious about understanding others Okay, if for me, that's what that was how I did it and that that's how we help other people do it Right, so to get out of your own way is recognizing that it's not just about you. It's not just your one way It's okay having a conversation. This isn't just about me. I want to see here and understand somebody else I want to listen to those different perspectives But part of that is being open to understanding different perspectives Suspending our judgment that little voice that we have in our head and and not going to that place of being right or wrong Being able to listen to something that you don't like or agree with and still being open to hear it It doesn't mean you have to adopt it on as your perspective But I think that that's where you know when you look at our culture or you look at social media It can be very positional and it's not always the best place to have Productive conversations because they do become very positional. They become know this is right Or this is wrong or and judgmental Where we get stuck in our own way is when we can't be from from my perspective we're just not open and curious to understand what's going on for other people and You know, there's a great quote And I can't remember who said it but you know where it's understanding is another name for love and really We just all want to be understood and it doesn't mean that we have to like what other people say or agree with what people And say but when we understand them it changes how we have relationships Totally, right and and that's the piece that you you need curiosity to understand others Yes, and you need to get out of your own way in order to understand others I think that's huge in the political sphere too where you have yes big polarization, right? And people won't even stop and almost Take the emotion out of it too and be like how can I best understand the other Person's position on this and this and this that's I think that's a massive part not and in business too Do you feel like people are usually looking for and I'm guilty of this looking for an Equal exchange When trying to have these conversations and what I mean is why should I be curious ask this person all these questions seek to Understand if I already know I'm right So what's the point of engaging in this conversation learning more when I already know it's my way or the highway This is the best way to do it anyways Well, if you already know you that you're right, I mean it's then why have the conversation I think what I'm trying to say is getting out of that perspective of thinking of things of right and wrong and just looking At them as being different It doesn't mean you have to change how you do anything But we can't learn unless we're open to understanding different perspectives. So, you know when you If we go through life thinking I'm gonna ask the question, but I'm still I know I'm right Then we're closed down. We're not actually gonna learn anything. So we're still in our own way. We're getting in our own way What's the point of having that conversation and how is the other person you're talking to you gonna feel? But if you're asking the question to learn and to be curious to understand It doesn't mean that you're not right or not wrong It doesn't mean you have to change your perspective But you will be open to listening to it differently So you might actually learn something and you might look at it differently But when we get into that positional the moment that anybody thinks they have the best idea or the right idea They stop listening. There's literally our brain just shuts down Because and you go into a meeting or parents, you know You're talking to your kids or with your friends or whatever if you get into conversation like that the moment that you think That you're right or that you have the best idea You're not gonna listen to understand anybody else because you've already made up your mind with that So we just miss a lot in conversations. We miss the opportunity to build richer relationships and and to deepen those relationships Is this what happens? You know the school systems could be thought of as you know, maybe Neglecting this state of curiosity by you know, it's usually a one-way conversation with lecture cheese University Lecturer students. It's been the same for hundreds of years Yep, is there a way, you know, what are your thoughts on the school system and what we're how we're teaching kids? You can be honest on the podcast. How much time do you have? But it's hard because I bet a lot of people in the system and teachers would agree with Well, we'll see what you say here first What what needs to change is anything need to change how big would these changes need to be? I think it's it's not a simple question. I for me. It's it's it's so many tears So one I feel like yes, the school system needs to change I it's it's not working for us in a way that's effective and a lot of people would say that I think we're really good at teaching our kids to be obedient I Question whether we're successfully teaching them to be critical thinkers I think that the education my understanding is education system hasn't changed in a lot of years and our world is Changing so quickly. So the the skills and the need for education has is also changing and it's hard to keep up with it So it's trying to figure out, you know, what is it that our kids need to be successful? And I think that's part of the problem is not people don't really know yet and it's changing so quickly I mean, I think for the first time ever we can't really foresee what ten years from now is gonna look like right But when I was a kid, you know, my parents could pretty much guarantee Maybe not guarantee but they had a pretty decent idea what my experience was gonna be like as a child my schooling experience You know what the expectation was they you know ten years you could predict what was gonna happen Just because we didn't have the changes that are going on now So it's really hard to answer these questions because I think part of the struggle is is people don't really know Is it working the way it is now from my perspective? No, I don't think it is working I think that we're rooted in a very old system that is not giving the kids the skills that they need They need to learn how to be critical thinkers because we don't know what's coming around the bend And yet our school system is still very much rigid and built on obedience of you know This is the knowledge you need to know I mean my son is in eighth grade and he's constantly saying how am I gonna use any of this information? Well, I was asking you're probably asking the same question to in school We all do a hundred percent and part of it is the process of thinking and learning and sifting through it You know, I think there's room to do it There's room to do a better job with that in some skills. I excuse me some schools. I think are doing that now, but it's It's it's hard. It's not a one-size-fits-all. It's not a one specific answer I think it's a bigger question that needs, you know teachers need different training Social media is a perfect example of that mental health is a perfect example of that Those are things that our teachers need training in our parents need a deeper understanding of all of this stuff Yeah, and how it crosses over into school and that we're only now. I'm now only starting to see that in the schools Isn't it interesting that you know, I know a lot of people for where we graduate University and Learning for me is so much more fun than it ever was at school And I took a bunch of different courses and electives because I'd like to learn a little bit about everything But having no curriculum no time frame learning exactly what I want to learn And how it can actually be applied to today. So my dad gave me a great example It's like we're learning algebra in high school and we just start. Okay guys. What is x equal look the hell? What do you mean x? Why are we solving for x? What does this actually mean? What are we doing? I'd be so frustrated. No wonder kids don't like math But what if we took a step back learned about Isaac Newton learned about what he was trying to accomplish with algebra Learned about okay This is how we got man on the moon because we did this and this and this is this what algebra allows us to do Rather than literally day one. Let's solve for x right it. There's huge gaps in education like that and Maybe that does stifle curiosity because people are like what's what's the point anyways? If you're gonna tell me what to do and it goes back to your point of obedience How do we get people to think more critically? I This you know, it's a great question. These are skills that we have to again their skills that we have to practice I don't not all teachers want their kids to think critically sometimes. That's more work for them you know, so it's one of those things that it's the chicken and the egg and and What does that look like and how do you how do you teach those? We know our kids need those skills And it's interesting because in a lot of meetings that I go into it's like whose job is that? Is it the parents job or is it the teacher's job? Yeah, right? And then there's debate over that and and but it's not solving for the it's still not solving the problem And I and part of it I think is as kids get older when they're younger parents are very much in command control And they need to control what their kids are doing because their life is dependent on it as they become a little bit more independent like five six they get into Elementary school you're in kindergarten first grade and they do become a little bit more independent You know parents tend to back off, but you still need to have hands-on and have control over the younger years but as they become into the teenage years and Other you know social media comes into play mental health comes into play drug sex all of these things that are terrifying for parents They tend to go back into command and control but really what we need to do is shift into thinking partner with our kids because our kids want that autonomy and You know as a cliche as it sounds because you hear this all the time It's like we got to let our kids fail We have to let our kids learn you know these things and when you have the helicopter parent the snow plow parent the drone parent I mean every year I feel like there's a new term that's coming out as parents part of it is we're scared because we don't know What's happening in ten years? Things are changing so quickly, you know, we don't our kids are just little Petri dishes We still don't know the effects of a lot of this stuff on long-term effects and how it's gonna help them hurt them Whatever and and so we go into command and control because we just want to keep them safe but the reality is is that We have to learn how to shift to be that thinking partner with them so that we can give them that autonomy over their lives in a Safe space to build those skills like critical thinking so that they can start solving their problems themselves because ultimately Those are the skills that they're gonna need as they get older. I mean think about it now You run your own business you wear all these hats You know, what are the skills that are most important for you to be the most successful? Was it solving for why? Is it time management? Is it, you know, I mean it's and so it's figuring out Understanding expectations setting expectations setting goals meeting goals, you know trusting that you're capable of doing these things and I those are the skills that we talk about as soft skills, but we don't teach and we don't implement and practice and They're just like every other skill. So it's just shifting We're now shifting into a different world and we haven't really kind of caught up with it, right? It's and it's moving so fast exponentially fast Yeah, it's it's incredible when I do talks with with kids I showed them my first cell phone that I had it was the dual flip Samsung and it's you know You send text 10 cents a text like it was Unbelievable and that was my lifetime that was in university and now here we are iPhone X It's like in all these new social media platforms It's moving so fast that we are at a time where you can't predict where the next 10 years will be or you can make predictions And the predictions are a little scary with VR 5g with quantum computing. It's unbelievable and what happens in schools too is Is you're looking to I think we can all agree that soft skills are really important But it's actually to overhaul what the curriculum or each class and really how do you teach these things and how do you actually? Grade and evaluate soft skills. It's like a whole overhaul that geez you think of what needs to change And that's pretty intimidating when you work with parents What's what's usually a roadblock for parents to have these discussions with kids? Because a lot of what I get to is like that the child will come home boom right to the room Yeah, or right to the computer right to the phone and they don't want to talk, right? What does a parent do when their child doesn't want to talk about issues? Well, and it goes back to I think what I learned with the teens. It's always it's so I Started as I went through my journey It was really interesting because I thought okay, I'm gonna work with parents and then parents would say no I don't it's not about me. It's about my kid. My kid just needs to change right or my spouse needs to change My boss needs to change everybody needed to change but them and they just didn't want to do the work And so I thought okay well I'll go with teens because teens really love these skills And they wanted these skills and they were so happy to have these skills And then I would end up having a hard time in the world of education because it was you know Well that you're taking this is somebody else's job and it became very competitive So that I went back to parents with a different perspective and the reality of it is is that it starts with us as Parents when we show up differently our kids are gonna show up differently and that's that Shifting from command and control into thinking partner. So we have to recognize being a teenager is very hard. I Remember being a teenager. It was very hard. It was not an easy thing to do There's a lot of expectation that is on them. It's a confusing time, you know So there's a lot that's going on in their life There's fears that our kids have that we never had to have growing up, you know So I think we have to be sensitive to all of those things And and recognize that they want autonomy over their own life and that if they don't want to have a conversation When we want to have a conversation it doesn't mean they don't want to talk about it It just means that we have to be the adult in the relationship and recognize Okay, this isn't the right time for you, but I am here for you no matter what and when you're there with them You have to be present. It means putting down your phone. You have to be listening, right? Not to judge not to lecture not to tell them what they are aren't doing just listening So we have to listen more and talk less and then when we are talking It's asking those questions to better understand and that's hard for parents when they hear things They don't like and they hear things they disagree with And or they recognize their kids have a different set of values I know that's hard for parents because parents think that their kids have the same values And while they may share the same values, they might define them differently And so those are all the things that are hard for parents If you want to have a relationship with your kid where you can have those difficult conversations. It's our job to Check it. We have to have that self-awareness, right? We have to get out of our own way and recognize Okay, I'm not gonna take this personally. I just need to see here and understand what's going on for my kid And that just means being present Listening and then being focused on understanding. Hmm. How do you bridge? How do you? tow that line between Being your son or daughter's best bud, you know those parents that would just want to be cool I remember going to parties and the parents like in high school the parents would be drinking with us, right? I'm like that's lame man. What are you doing? Go to bed. It's 9 30 not to say that a parent can't party Well, like, you know what I mean? Why are you trying so hard to be cool? It's it's how do you have a parent to have those difficult conversations to be Present with your child to to welcome those conversations, but to still have that parental role as a figure of I don't know if authority is the right word, but you still need to practice discipline, right? Is there how do you tow that line? Do you want to be your son or daughter's best friend? I mean, I personally don't know that that's The the role of a parent. I think that I you know, let's start there. What's the role of a parent? Yeah, I don't that's a good question. I think it's different for everybody, but I being your kid's best friend doesn't necessarily It's a heart. That's a hard one, you know, I'm not a for me I think you can under you have to give your kids their freedom. They want to hang out with their friends, right? So I think that's again, we got to get out of our own way. What kind of a parent Do you want to be? Do you want to be your kid's best friend? But then how does that help when you get into the challenging disciplinary times, you know? So it's that of course we want to be friends with our kids and we want to have Relationships with our kids, but we also have to hold a safe space for them And we have to be able to help them in this I like to call it a safe container because really by the time They're 18 they're out into the real world and they don't have that safe container for us So we for me I like to think of it is we want to have our kids make all of those mistakes in a safe container Rather than be fully perfect if your kid doesn't make mistakes Until they move out they're gonna make the mistakes or we're all gonna make mistakes And so it's giving them the ability to make those mistakes so that they can pick themselves up off the floor And have the confidence to do it because if they can't do it when they're living at home How are they gonna do it when they're living on their own, right? Right? So is That being their best friend is that really the most is that the healthy? I'm not a parent expert I don't know how healthy I'm a parent. Yes. So, you know, I don't look at it as being my kid's best friend Do I want to have a healthy relationship with them? Yes Do I want them to know that they can come to me and talk about anything? Yes, you know, do I want them to have a safe space and know that they're not gonna be judged and I would rather They come to me then go to Google. Yeah, I also recognize they're gonna talk to other people and have you know As long as they have somebody that they can talk to you, I think that's really really really important So I think there's a danger in becoming your kid's best friend that way I you know, I think that parents live they're not being honest with themselves and then how do you? I'm not big on discipline, but I think you have to have consequences the life, you know That's the world we live in we have consequences if you know if you break the law There's gonna be a consequence to that. Yeah, so we have to be able to help Teach these things to our kids so they better understand If we're best friends with our kids, I don't know if that's right Well, cuz they because once you lay that consequence on there, what happened? I thought you were my best bud You're punishing me. I think the best consequences are the ones that come naturally when you do something wrong There's a natural consequence. I remember I was suspended a few times in grade seven seven and eight One a friend of mine. We were breaking coat racks in the change room. It was really fun. You kicked them. They smashed Oh, it was so much fun doing karate kicks and the the custodian comes in he's like what are you doing brings us to the principal's office and Suspended and my dad Figured this out of my mom and they're just like that is so stupid that they're sending you home. I Would love Scott for you to pay for some new coat racks You get a drill from the custodian you guys replace all of them yourselves and that's the consequence money out of your own bank But the suspension thing that still happens. Yeah, what what is such an unnatural way to? Punish. Yeah, someone so I think I don't know where I was going with that But it's really interesting that that you think the best friend idea doesn't work and I think a lot of people Would it would definitely agree well, do you would you when you were a teenager? Did you want your parents to be your best friend? Oh my gosh? No, that was the cringiest thing ever exactly and then we and we Then we impose ourselves on our kids, right? We impose ourselves in their lives and then we want them to talk about things that best friends talk about but From a kid's perspective, it's like you're nosy. Why are you getting in my business? Give me my space, you know, let me live my life and that we have to let them do that We have to give them that space to do that because otherwise they become codependent on us That's not a healthy way to raise your kids, right? So Yes, they go as teenagers. Maybe we didn't want them as friends, but as you become older We sometimes we'll circle back and our relationships over time change with our parents, right? And so it's just giving that space I mean now I'm in my 40s my relationship with my mom is very different than when I was a Yeah, you start a business together But but I but it's probably the same, you know your late 20s your relationship can change I think that it's just we have to give our kids that space and allow them to make those mistakes and recognize their brains are developing You know, I have a 13 year old and I remember saying to an expert say like I feel like he lives offline all the time He just he's an incredibly smart kid and he makes such stupid choices and she's like, yeah, his brain is offline That's exactly what's happening, you know And I think as parents we forget that we forget that there's so much going on and we expect them to be these really responsible adults But it doesn't work like that. We got to give them that space to Be silly and make silly mistakes and you're right There should be a better system of consequences in place like suspending kids That doesn't teach them anything other than to continue to act out and you don't have to go to school, right? Right, that's what that teaches you and it's gonna be a problem for parents If you're a working parent, that is a huge problem then the accountability goes on to the parent now Right now they have to figure out how to make this work the the biggest reason Why, you know, I'm so biased. Hi mom. Hi dad if you're listening You know, I'm very biased because I think they're the best parents in the world but the reason that we all were so open with my parents and we could talk about a lot is Because everything we shared whether it be homework what we learned what we didn't like accomplishments They would be and show excitement. Yeah that When something good happens, what do you want to do once it feels good? You obviously go and you want to share because you can only get so much So much serotonin and dopamine on your own So you want to share and it kicks you into high gear and you feel even better sharing that with someone But the reason you share with people and you share with certain people is that they get excited for you That's what friends are for. I feel like if parents and I think it comes to getting out of your own way And like being excited for your kid and showing that interest that like they'll open up If there anything like me they'll open up right away because they're like, oh my gosh They're gonna get a kick out of this once I tell them and you get excited to tell them because they get excited for you That's that beautiful exchange between people to not just parents Is that something you you hear from a lot from from teens and parents or is that one of the One of the gateways into curiosity is that excitement? Well, it's interesting So what you're talking about or what I hear you're talking about is when you're curious with somebody and you have Understanding you actually have a mind-heart opening and your body releases oxytocin, which is a feel-good drug So when you're having conversations with people and we've Most of us have had them. I've met people who haven't but the majority of us have them It could be when you first meet a loved one, you know in a first date or a best friend or a parent can you can have these conversations with Your parents where you do you you literally feel high? Right, right like you and because we are it's that feel-good drug oxytocin is released in our body because we have Understanding it's like wow. I feel seen I feel heard I feel understood this person gets me That's it's a real thing. Yeah, right and so that it comes from being curious from getting out of your own way To ask the questions to better understand somebody's perspective and again, we don't have to like what we hear So when our kids come to us as you're saying and they're excited about what's going on and they're sharing their experience And they're sharing their perspective as a parent to just be open and listen so you can understand what's going on for your child Of course, you're gonna be excited because you're understanding what's going on for your child but when we listen if we don't like what we hear and then we listen from a place of judging it or Shaming it or blaming it or you know, like that's not right and you shouldn't have done that Then we actually release cortisol the stress drug, right? And that's how we go into conflict and that's where so you've had those conversations I know I've had these conversations where it's like oh my gosh I had the most amazing experience, right? And then somebody can hijack your conversation. No, I had the best I saw the most amazing movie and I want to show the one uppers, right? It's like no, I saw the best movie and that happens at all of our com and then we feel deflated It's like oh, you're not listening to me and and let me tell me all the reasons why my movie is better It's not how you build relationships, right? As just as you're talking about with your parents if you come home and you have something exciting to share You know, ma'am. I had the most amazing day. It was awesome and I broke all of the hooks at school, right? But for you, maybe that was an amazing thing and then we go like you can't do that and judge shame judge shame We're right wrong right wrong it ends up in conflict But if a parents can say in a place to be like, okay, help me understand what was going on for you I'm not saying that they're gonna leave the conversation feeling amazing But they're gonna be able to have the conversation without being emotionally Frot, you know because you're gonna understand. Well, I don't know it was it was this is these are the reasons I wanted to see whatever the reasons were, you know, it doesn't make it, right? It just means that you understand where they're coming from so it's easier to have those difficult conversations It's easier to stay in that place of Ambiguity and it's easier to control your emotions when you're in curiosity Then when you go to that place of right wrong judging blaming and shaming and I think as parents We forget that so you had that's a maze I love to hear those experience with your parents because it sounds like they were present and they were open and they listened And what that did is it gave you that what I'm hearing you say is that it gave you the opportunity to go to them with Anything because you knew that they would be there for you and listen to you no matter what and that's boom like what else do you want from a Exactly. Oh my gosh There's the icing on the cake if you have that I don't like to use the word safe space But if you feel safe and comfortable talking to your parent about anything the parent is supposed to be the supportive role Yes, and you're right Again, I'm not a parent yet, but I can maybe empathize or at least sympathize with Let's say kids come home and they they share something and imagine what they're sharing You know is completely like factually false and like did you know the Tesla cost 8.2 million dollars to make and you're like, oh, that's so wrong. Oh my gosh Immediately I would be like actually I'd be the actually person the actually dad actually son That's actually not what's up, but I feel like that that curiosity part Again, it's if you do the actually thing it shuts down the conversation with your kids But then furthering that with asking a question like oh, where did you learn that? Exactly. Oh, really. Oh, let's talk about how a Tesla is made. What are the steps? Where did that number come from? Yeah, and hey, why don't we go on Google together and learn about this? that It may take Do you think it takes extra effort to have that curious mindset? 100% that's why it's easier to not have it Right, you know, and that's the biggest feedback that I get from parents. What if I don't care I don't want to understand my kid. I want my kid to do what I'm telling them to do Right, that's big. Let's repeat that one And as parents we do we want I like I've been there. I fully appreciate this I you know in those moments. It's like I don't really care what's going on for you right now I want you to get off your video game. Yeah, right? Yeah, I want you to get in the car I want you to do your homework. I you know, it's that those are the things in those moments parents were fried We're done. It's like I just want you to do what I'm telling you to do Yeah, so then you we have to go back to okay Do we want our kids to be obedient or do we want our kids to be critical thinkers and That it's hard in those moments, right? And there is a meme that goes around social media all the time We want our kids to be critical thinkers until we want them to be obedient, right and that's and it's it's a juggle It really and truly is a juggle. Yes, it takes longer a hundred percent. It takes longer in the upfront But when you in terms of asking questions like you were saying before yeah, you're gonna have different conversations That's why in school teachers will shut kids down like stop asking me questions, you know As kids are younger like why is this guy blue? Why why why why they're excited? They want to learn and we're just like for the love of God. Don't ask me another question. I can't take it anymore Yeah, yeah, we shut them down Parents shut it down to you. No, that's not right, you know, did you know that a Tesla is eight million dollars? Actually, no, it's not yeah If you have enough of those conversations your kid is gonna stop coming to you because they're the message They're getting is no matter what I tell my parents. It's not right bingo. There's a cortisol You see your parent is almost a threat now of giving you nothing satisfying or good. Let's just pause No, it's just a test and it's just for the floor you spoke about I've heard of helicopter parenting or 2019 drone parenting. Yeah, what's snow plow parenting? Oh snow plow parenting is when you clear the path for them. Oh Right, so it's you know parents just clear the path rather than what's the saying where? You need to prepare them for the path not There's not great the path or something like yes, basically they're clearing the path for them. Okay easy walking no stones hurdles, okay so I was at a mental health event for grade sevens and eights and it was about You know stopping stigma to expressing yourself being comfortable talking about your feelings and beforehand they had teachers come on and say You know Students you may feel triggered based on some of the content. So there's counselors. There's a psychologist There's a public health nurse in the back if you feel triggered Some of it might be triggering. I don't like that word. Yeah, but then there are supports for you And I thought is our trigger warnings is this kind of mentality? Are we crippling kids? mentally and Decreasing that resilience it's okay So what's injury what comes up for me is I read an article recently about university? And it was exactly the same thing where universities used to be places where you could go and talk about things extreme perspectives that not everybody agreed with but the point was to understand different perspectives and debate different perspectives to the point Now where professors are losing their job because students are feeling triggered in the classroom and they feel like it's not a safe space So I mean it is a bigger question, you know for me. It's where What is triggering these? Where is that coming from what how are students feeling unsafe or triggered in that moment? Whatever that looks like for them, right? It's different for everyone Yeah, like what is the level of triggering and not triggering what's triggering? You know, hey We have the fireplace on here What if I had a past experience with someone passing away in a house fire and now the professor can't say fire because It's triggering for me. It's every lecture in every class need to say hey guys We're talking about Christopher Columbus. This might be triggering for you. Yeah, okay, like where where's the line? well, and it's when it comes to stress and anxiety and and all the things that you know kids are feeling immensely right now, it's I think it's also important to remember that For the average kid those are not bad things like we need stress in our life We need conflict in our relationships like we need that's a healthy part of how we live our life It's not It's not, you know stress never causes the issue conflict never causes the issue. It's how we deal with it Anxiety never causes the issue. It's how we deal with it and it's different for everybody. So I think for me it's a Again goes back to understanding. We have to understand Where is it coming from and and it's gonna look like different things for different people and for some people It's gonna be more extreme than others and it's not you can't it's not a one size fits all It's finding out. How do you work through it? What are the strategies that you need? What help do you need in order to work through it because otherwise we all become prisoners in our life? We're all gonna be triggered no matter where we go and that is not a successful way to live your life You want to be able to work through these things? I have been to plenty of parent groups and especially around the holidays I've read so many articles about how to have different Conversations with family members and a lot of them say just avoid them. Oh, and that's not a strategy Right, like that is not a successful strategy. We can't just avoid things that make us uncomfortable We have to learn how to work through things that make us uncomfortable We have to learn how to sit with feelings that are uncomfortable and work our way through it But these are all things that we are not taught. We're just expected to know so It's it goes back to that bigger picture of you know Is it the chicken or the egg and I think it's different for everybody. Do I think it's a productive way of holding? Seminar or a workshop. No, I think kids need to learn this stuff if we're prefacing it with these triggers. It's How productive is it we're not giving them the tools that they need right right the analogy could be People or parents bubble wrap their kids or schools bubble wrap kids and sent out in the world and nothing can Actually, we should be more like a Like things can penetrate that so easily though Right, it's more like it's more like having somewhat of a protective barrier But one that's still you still have to deal with conflict when it comes up Right, and it's just really we were trying to protect kids from the sharp objects in the world rather than You know teaching them to deal with these things and not necessarily be on high alert But really know how know how to deal with things I should be comfortable with being uncomfortable Yeah, the search for happiness for kids is like what can I do to feel joy in the moment right now for as long as possible? So I'll go home and play video games. I'll go home and go online because it's comfortable. It feels good So when something terrible happens, someone gets triggered. We talk about anxiety. You see a disturbing image It's like the their world collapses in front of them It's the end of the world the breakup is the end of the world Although that's pretty normal actually, but do you know what I mean? It's like you gotta work through it How do you work through it got the pieces and you got to work through it? Yeah, yeah We have to find ways to be more comfortable. I mean I when I talked to parents about it, especially when it comes to emotions First parents need to learn how to manage their emotions before they can expect their kids to learn how to manage their emotions Right, so it's kind of the same thing and and we're all uncomfortable with being uncomfortable And that's something that just as humans we need to be more comfortable with if you can teach your kid to be Uncomfortable be comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, I mean when you look at the most successful people in the world That is what they talk about. I had to learn how to be comfortable being uncomfortable That's where the magic happens, right? That's how we get out of our own way. Yes, life is hard And there's this myth I think as parents we want everybody to be happy and we want our kids to be happy But that's not real life. It's just not you know and and when you ask adults when you're most happy It's because of the struggles. They've had right have having to pick themselves up out of those holes and Had to have that resilience to get back up and try it again You know that and I don't even like the word happy, but you know, that's when they're the most Vibrant fulfilled, you know, you're feeling all the feels so to speak That's because we had to do it ourselves if we can't give our kids those skills If we don't let them have those moments of uncomfort and help them pick them back up It becomes paralyzing in university and then it becomes paralyzing when you're living on your own And then when you have a family, then what do you do? Yeah, so we have it's it's hard I'm not saying it's easy. We all need to learn how to get out of our own way and become comfortable and uncomfort That's the greatest gift that we can give our kids, you know, I think personally. I absolutely love it Let's take that one away everyone You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and not being afraid to get out of your own way too I think there's a fear that that if you're not in it for yourself That you'll you'll somehow lose your business lose your sense of self not being able to self-improve if you take that attention away from yourself But meanwhile like actually putting effort into understanding other people makes us better human beings makes us more empathetic Through empathy geez maybe that changes the way you run your business that maybe changes the way you interact with your boss Your co-workers, let's you see the world in a different way Makes you change paths. Who knows but to to be open and understand I think that's the the most beautiful thing with with parents and that's what gets kids to open up the Institute of Curiosity that's that's the most beautiful thing in the world I would just throw in one we think yeah, don't be afraid to understand yourself I think for me it started with understanding myself It was paying attention to how am I showing up in relationships? How am I showing up in my conversations? Am I you know how curious am I about other people? Am I speaking to be heard or am I listening to understand how many yeah, buts are coming out of my mouth right in that term because I thought I was an amazing communicator, but I was really good at Fixing and solving which people don't want to be fixed and solve especially your kids don't want to be fixed and solve And you know and I thought I was helping so I think when we take that step back and have that self-awareness and be curious We have to be curious with ourselves You know what makes us tick? Yes What kind of a person do we want to be and have that awareness of how we're showing up in conversations and how we're showing up in life Are we showing up with awe and beauty around us? Are we showing up busy and overwhelmed and just checking off our to-do list getting from thing to thing to thing to thing? Right because how we that's gonna be a huge difference in how we live our life and how we interact with people and the choices that we make and You know our level of joy in our life. So start with self Well, also understanding other and it's a two-part thing with curiosity But I think that the more that you understand yourself It's easier to understand others, but if you want to understand others first, then it will help you understand yourself Either way go back to understanding That's a beautiful way to end it Kirsten. Thank you so much for coming on everyone The website is below in the description. Do you have Instagram? Yeah, I'm not good at it. I haven't really been doing it. Good. I share that thing with you about the babies of Instagram that's a whole my gosh parenting pressure You know with with raising kids and what do you share online? Hey your baby your son or daughter There's no consent there. What are they gonna be? They're gonna be all grown up seeing naked pictures of themselves on Facebook in the tub Like what is that strange to me? I well, I want to have you on I want to do our own thing about that because I think parents have a lot of questions around that and I There's a lot of there's a they just don't know I think that they're They feel like to be successful. They should be doing it a certain way without understanding what the repercussions are Yes, completely the natural consequence of things. Oh, there are some with social media My friends if you're interested if they're there any teachers or parents listening Kristen and I are doing we're gonna be doing some talks together for parent groups in Toronto Please feel free to email me email her and get more info like this is a Dynamic duo here with with presentations. I think it's gonna be amazing our first one We're gonna be doing a presentation at a private school on December 17th for parents of grade 5 students That's gonna be amazing. I'm excited Excited, I'm excited if you're excited, then I'm excited. I think it's gonna be a beautiful thing. Thanks so much, Kristen Everyone stay strong Keep being you and don't forget to express yourself